Player Help New(ish) to 5e, still learning rules: Want the tankiest of tanks. [Archive]

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The Jamth

2021-08-15, 10:48 AM

Unoriginal

2021-08-15, 11:26 AM

Kvess

2021-08-15, 11:52 AM

Depends on what you want to do.

If you want a really simple path to being an effective tank, most players will recommend the Path of the Totem Warrior Barbarian with the Bear Totem Spirit. Not only do you have the largest hit dice, but while raging you have resistance (half damage) to everything except psychic damage. Reckless attack makes it easier for enemies to hit you, but you want to incentivize enemies to damage you because your hitpoints go further.

If you want to prevent your allies from taking damage, the Oath of Redemption Paladin can take damage that one of your allies would be taking as a reaction. Another good option is the Sentinel Feat, which allows you to prevent an enemy from moving past you to attack your allies in melee. In early levels or against enemies that make many weak attacks, the Heavy Armor Master feat is also really good.

If you can find a way to get the warlock spell Armor of Agathys, you get a pool of temporary hitpoints and a decent source of retaliatory damage. It isn't a concentration spell (so you won't lose it if you get hit), scales well, and goes further if you have resistance to common sources of damage.

The Jamth

2021-08-15, 12:57 PM

Hi! I hope you have loads of fun with 5e. Keep in mind that it is a whole different system from 3.X, despite the similar names for many things, so I strongly advise you to treat it as an entirely new, separate thing, without leftover assumptions.

The question is: what do you mean by "tank"?

Some people use the term "tank" to mean a character who is extremely resilient/hard to kill, but "tanking" (as far as I'm concerned, at least) is more about diminishing the damage done to the rest of the party by becoming the target of the enemies. There is also those who mean "tanking" as being both hard to hit and hard to kill, while others think that you can tank just by being an easy-to-hit damage sponge or just by being an hard-to-hit squishy with some tricks in case of emergency. Or some other variations of the concept thereof.

Also worth asking: being the tankiest tank is a defensive consideration, so would you be fine sacrificing offense for more defense, or do you still want strong offensive capabilities?

Thanks for the advice!

To use your vernacular, I am looking to be extremely hard to kill but also want to reduce party damage if at all possible. I am not worried about super strong offense, as the rest of the party will worry about damage. I just want to be that shield that holds the line for my mates.

The Jamth

2021-08-15, 12:58 PM

Kvess

2021-08-15, 01:22 PM

It sounds like you want to be a paladin, then. Paladins are difficult to hit, have auras that provide bonuses to saving throws for allies, and get additional benefits from their oaths. The Oath of the Ancients aura provides resistance to spell damage while the Oath of Redemption allows you to take damage for an ally. The Oath of Conquest paladin's aura doesn't provide a passive buff, instead it has a nasty control debuff on enemies, and it gives you access to Armor of Agathys, so it might be worth considering.

You can even take the Defence fighting style and bump up your AC by an additional point.

Corran

2021-08-15, 01:26 PM

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612408-5e-Throwdowns-2-Judgement-Day-aka-the-terminator!&highlight=tank+build+contest

Several good builds here. Might give you an idea or two. Although do notice that the focus was more on personal survivability and less on control/drawing enemies' attention. So you might want to mix and match.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-15, 01:31 PM

Angelalex242

2021-08-15, 01:32 PM

I'm big on preferring Oath of the Ancients with maxed Charisma. That aura really helps with survivability of allies.

J-H

2021-08-15, 01:39 PM

You'll get a LOT of different takes on this. I've based mine on a "Single class, working no later than level 3" requirement, as new-ish players usually don't start at high levels:

Abjurer Wizard You have a pool of temporary HP that grows as you level up. AC with Mage Armor is 13+Dex, with a +5 boost from Shield. your AC a few points higher. I played one from level 3 to about level 6, and, counting the temporary HP, was usually tied with the paladin and monk for AC & HP...while being a wizard. This was with rolled stats, and I had good Dex and Con. You can go Mountain Dwarf for medium armor proficiency to raise your AC a few points higher.

Barbarian Most HP. Best resistance to physical damage. Deals damage and is out front where enemies usually want to hit him. Totem (bear) gives you resistance to almost every type of damage. Ancestral Guardian incentivizes attacking you. Zealot is easier to bring back from the dead, and becomes functionally immune to death by HP loss at level 14. Barbarian AC isn't necessarily bad either, if you use a shield and Pole Arm Master (spear) for a 3rd attack per round.

Moon Druid Wildshapes provide a pool of extra hit points, as well as utility. You're also still a full-caster druid. AC is not that great, though, so you will get hit a lot. On the other hand, you get to turn into an Bear/Allosaurus/etc. twice per short rest.

Fighter For AC, go Eldritch Knight. With Defense style, full plate, and a shield, you have AC 21 with no magical items. Shield bumps it up to 26 for short bursts, still without any magic items. You do suffer from a low number of spell slots. I houserule that EKs can swap Evocation out for another school of their choice (recommended: Transmutation or Illusion).

Paladin You help the entire party with saving throws, and you have the same AC as the fighter. You're one of the least likely team members to fail any given saving throw, and you pack a nice burst heal option with Lay on Hands. Oath lists offer some nice options, like the Vengeance Paladin in my party using Dimension Door to teleport 400'+ to enemies while bringing a friend along for the ride.

Armorer Artificer You're Iron Man. Your suit can fly at mid-levels, suck enemies towards it, or create a pool of regenerating temporary HP for you. Your AC is also pretty good thanks to infusions and shield use, and you can boost your own strength to 19 with infusions also.

Unoriginal

2021-08-15, 01:42 PM

To use your vernacular, I am looking to be extremely hard to kill but also want to reduce party damage if at all possible. I am not worried about super strong offense, as the rest of the party will worry about damage. I just want to be that shield that holds the line for my mates.

Those sound like good options. I will most likely pass on the barb as I prefer a shield for this type of character. Granted, I know nothing prevents a barb using a shield, but traditionally to me they carry large bonksticks as opposed to the more sword and board playstyle.

It sounds like you want to be a paladin, then.

To me, this sounds like a Cavalier Fighter.

Cavalier Fighter is one of the best tanks in the game, alongside the Ancestral Barbarian, and it fits OP's concept.

While a Paladin's aura has big benefits, I wouldn't call that enough to "tank" in itself.

The Oath of the Ancients aura provides resistance to spell damage while the Oath of Redemption allows you to take damage for an ally.

Another Paladin subclass to consider is the Oath of Conquest, especially with the Sentinel feat.

It's not traditional tanking, it's more that your PC is so scary the enemies don't dare get close and it becomes more difficult for them to hit anything.

The Battle Master and Psi Warrior Fighter subclasses are also worth considering.

How do you feel about being a caster? Moon Druid gets 2 Wild Shapes on a very advantageous table per short rest as a bonus action. There are builds that include a couple of levels of Barbarian for rages on top of this to provide a truly stupid amount of hp if that's appealing. The nice thing about Druid is you have good options to interact with other aspects of the game beyond even the Wild Shape options. Pass Without Trace, for example, is a very strong spell that will aid in exploration and getting the jump in combat if you wish.

Another option if you want something more traditional as a tank is Eldritch Knight. It's maybe a bit overshadowed by some of the new content, but it still works. Most of the low level spell slots can be used for things like Shield and Absorb elements, you have high HP and AC, and you have additional ASIs that can be used for feats like PAM and Sentinel.

Eldritch Knights can be decent tanks, true, but while Moon Druids are indeed damage sponges they lack the party-defending capacities one needs to be called a tank.

At best the Moon Druid can be enough of a target to draw enemy fire, but it's far from certain that an enemy will focus on the big dangerous animal rather than focus on the squishier adventurers.

stoutstien

2021-08-15, 01:52 PM

LudicSavant

2021-08-15, 02:07 PM

Hello all my fellow roleplayers!
I have been an avid player of D&D for many years, with most of my concentration being in 3-3.5e. I have made a few posts here and there to get ideas, but I am about to play 5e with my group and I want to build the tankiest of tanks. We have almost all the source books for reference. If someone could provide a build they think is the ultimate meat shield, and kind of spell out how to run/manage it I would be greatly appreciative.

No class is off limits as far as I know (until my DM decides otherwise). The mechanics of 5e seems relatively easy to follow, but managing feats versus ability points and then the sub-classes without going into prestige is still a little foreign to me. I have confidence I will be able to understand it all, but just need a little push.

Thank you to all!

The tankiest tanks are generally going to be caster builds, though those characters are also less beginner-friendly (e.g. their tankiness is not passive; you have to know what to use, when, and why). Barbarians are kind of the opposite: They have a relatively low ceiling, but a very high floor; new players will often feel invincible playing a Zealot doing nothing in particular (even if other classes can be optimized to be tougher than them).

If you're looking at martial classes, take a look at...

Barbarian: Zealot, Ancestral Guardian, and Beast
Fighter: Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight, Echo Knight (w/ remote Sentinel builds), Battle Master. Cavalier is tanking-focused, but IMHO not as optimal as the above.
Paladin: ...Basically all of them. Watchers, Redemption, Conquest, Ancients, and Devotion (especially in games where certain creature types are common).
Rogues: You may be surprised to learn that Rogues can be built tanky in 5e. With Booming Blade (such as from the High Elf race or being an Arcane Trickster) and Sneak Attack OAs, they can be very sticky. And they have plenty of defensive abilities. You just have to do something to get their AC up (like taking a 1-level Fighter dip, for instance). Check out Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler.
Monk: Long Death

For caster classes, take a look at...

Clerics: Most of them, but special mention goes to Life, Arcana, Twilight, and Peace for being especially good at rendering themselves and/or teammates unkillable.
Warlocks: Celestial and Undead Warlocks. Either with Gift of the Protectors or Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (depending on if you want Tome or Pact).
Sorcerer: Clockwork Soul
Bard: Glamour, Lore, or Swords (NOT Valor)
Wizard: Abjurer, Bladesinger, War Magic, Enchanter, Evoker -- Grab armor proficiency from a 1-level dip (or Hobgoblin/Moderately Armored) unless you're a Bladesinger.
Druids: Moon, Shepherd

Contrast

2021-08-15, 02:28 PM

I have been an avid player of D&D for many years, with most of my concentration being in 3-3.5e. I have made a few posts here and there to get ideas, but I am about to play 5e with my group and I want to build the tankiest of tanks.

So I'm not sure if you've played 5E before from that intro but just as an initial comment that anyone coming from 3.5 to 5 - don't assume you know how something works because it shares a name. Opportunity attacks are a good one as an example.

I think my vote is Ancients Paladin. They give you a number of tools to play with and can help in situations other martials might struggle with. Its just solid without any major caveats (well...ranged damage is poor).

If you want something more specific, I have a variant human Ancients Paladin who uses a spear and shield in combination with Polearm Mastery and then all my ASIs just went towards Str/Cha. Heavy Armor Master is also surprisingly good given many enemies in the MM don't have magic attacks.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-15, 02:29 PM

To me, this sounds like a Cavalier Fighter.

Cavalier Fighter is one of the best tanks in the game, alongside the Ancestral Barbarian, and it fits OP's concept.

While a Paladin's aura has big benefits, I wouldn't call that enough to "tank" in itself.

Another Paladin subclass to consider is the Oath of Conquest, especially with the Sentinel feat.

It's not traditional tanking, it's more that your PC is so scary the enemies don't dare get close and it becomes more difficult for them to hit anything.

The Battle Master and Psi Warrior Fighter subclasses are also worth considering.

Eldritch Knights can be decent tanks, true, but while Moon Druids are indeed damage sponges they lack the party-defending capacities one needs to be called a tank.

At best the Moon Druid can be enough of a target to draw enemy fire, but it's far from certain that an enemy will focus on the big dangerous animal rather than focus on the squishier adventurers.

I disagree with everything that follows the words, 'at best'. You can shapechange into things that are big or have reach to plug a hole. You can fly or swim to get where you need. You have summoning spells to put more obstacles between enemies and your squishy allies. And you have the same access to feats that all other classes have (with the exception of Rogue and Fighter who get more). So at best Moon Druids have a lot of options to tank regardless of the definition.

BTW (edit) to the OP, Paladin, as others have pointed out also isn't a bad option to start with. You can choose from a couple of subclasses depending on what aspect of defense strikes you once it's time to pick. They are also a good class which will give you other chances to role play beyond just combat.

Gtdead

2021-08-15, 02:30 PM

Generally speaking and as a newcomer, the classes you want to look most at is the Paladin (Devotion, Conquest, although most oaths will work) and the common multiclasses (Paladin 2-6/Sorcerer X or Warlock 2-3/Paladin X), Cleric (any domain can work but some are more defensive than others), Fighter (Eldritch Knight, Cavalier, Echo Knight) and Barbarian (Zealot, Totem/Bear).

One very important aspect of this edition is the concept of bounded accuracy. A short way to describe this is that classes don't scale at a "per level" basis and numerical attributes are kept low in a manner that even low CR monsters can harm a high level player. You won't find the numerical bloat that 3.5e has. The implication and the reason I'm talking about this is that AC scales extremely well since the +1 AB boni are rare.

The highest AC you can get on any character with all proficiencies and without magical items is 20 (Plate Armor + Shield) and martials have access to Fighting Styles which can add +1 for a total of 21.
There are a handful of spells that increase AC by 2 (Shield of Faith, Haste)
There is one spell that increases it by 5 (Shield).
So an optimized tank for AC can potentially reach up to 28 which is basically unhittable for a huge chunk of the bestiary.

There are some outliers that under certain conditions can surpass even that (Bladesinger, Barbarian for example but they scale with attributes and they will take a while to reach these values, sacrificing important feats on the way.

From there on you can try other things like tanking with caster based builds like Hexblade/Abjuration builds, War Wizard, etc, but these are beyond the scope of this post because they are build-specific.

Welcome to 5e and have fun!

stoutstien

2021-08-15, 02:58 PM

The tankiest tanks are generally going to be caster builds, though those characters are also less beginner-friendly (e.g. their tankiness is not passive; you have to know what to use, when, and why). Barbarians are kind of the opposite: They have a relatively low ceiling, but a very high floor; new players will often feel invincible playing a Zealot doing nothing in particular (even if other classes can be optimized to be tougher than them).

If you're looking at martial classes, take a look at...

Barbarian: Zealot, Ancestral Guardian, and Beast
Fighter: Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight, Echo Knight (w/ remote Sentinel builds), Battle Master. Cavalier is tanking-focused, but IMHO not as optimal as the above.
Paladin: ...Basically all of them. Watchers, Redemption, Conquest, Ancients, and Devotion (especially in games where certain creature types are common).
Rogues: You may be surprised to learn that Rogues can be built tanky in 5e. With Booming Blade (such as from the High Elf race or being an Arcane Trickster) and Sneak Attack OAs, they can be very sticky. And they have plenty of defensive abilities. You just have to do something to get their AC up (like taking a 1-level Fighter dip, for instance). Check out Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler.
Monk: Long Death

For caster classes, take a look at...

Clerics: Most of them, but special mention goes to Life, Arcana, Twilight, and Peace for being especially good at rendering themselves and/or teammates unkillable.
Warlocks: Celestial and Undead Warlocks. Either with Gift of the Protectors or Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (depending on if you want Tome or Pact).
Sorcerer: Clockwork Soul
Bard: Glamour, Lore, or Swords (NOT Valor)
Wizard: Abjurer, Bladesinger, War Magic, Enchanter, Evoker -- Grab armor proficiency from a 1-level dip (or Hobgoblin/Moderately Armored) unless you're a Bladesinger.
Druids: Moon, Shepherd

You forgot artificer lol. Though I don't know where they would fall on the caster/martial divide.

Dalinar

2021-08-15, 03:09 PM

As you can tell from the rest of this thread, there are many, many ways to skin this particular cat.

One I haven't seen brought up yet is the Battle Smith Artificer. Your Steel Defender can impose disadvantage on attacks against creatures other than it, which is basically the gold standard for "taunt" abilities in 5e. (True MMO-style taunts are pretty much nil.) You personally can reach a high AC, and you can use Sentinel to punish people who attack your Steel Defender if you take that feat. You're a half-caster; you get goodies like Absorb Elements, Cure Wounds, and Grease from level 1, the all-important Shield spell at level 3 from your subclass, and some good second-level options like Blur, Warding Bond, and Web at 5.

It'll be a bit tough from 1-2 I think, but after that you should be solid. Booming Blade will keep you sticky, as well.

The Jamth

2021-08-15, 03:14 PM

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-15, 03:19 PM

Regardless of class, consider grabbing Polearm Master and Sentinel. Combine these two feats with either a glaive/pike/halberd or quarterstaff and shield. The former will give you more damage and greater range for controlling the field with PAM while the latter will give you a better AC.

These two feats in concert let you make opportunity attacks when something enters your attack range, then reduces their speed to 0. You also get a bonus action attack, useful for keeping your damage high. You might want to consider playing a variant human or a custom lineage in order to start with one. I recommend PAM first.

Another useful option if you can get fit it is the Booming Blade cantrip and the War Caster feat. It's not as effective as PAM/Sentinel in general but it's something you can use in concert, punishing enemies for moving without your permission for serious damage. The Eldritch Knight Fighter is best if you like this idea, since a variant human can get all of this online by level 6. You also get access to some lucrative defensive spells like Shield, Mirror Image, and eventually Haste.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-15, 04:19 PM

Regardless of class, consider grabbing Polearm Master and Sentinel. Combine these two feats with either a glaive/pike/halberd or quarterstaff and shield. The former will give you more damage and greater range for controlling the field with PAM while the latter will give you a better AC.

These two feats in concert let you make opportunity attacks when something enters your attack range, then reduces their speed to 0. You also get a bonus action attack, useful for keeping your damage high. You might want to consider playing a variant human or a custom lineage in order to start with one. I recommend PAM first.

Basically this. If you are going to take all this advice and go Paladin you will want to start (assuming point buy) with Strength and Charisma 16. If you get feats at 1 (vhuman) and 4 then you won't have an opportunity to improve stats until 8th, but it'll still be solid.

BerzerkerUnit

2021-08-15, 05:56 PM

For my Money:

Warlock 3 Bladepact/Bladesinger Wizard (TCoE version) 17.

Warlock 1, Bladesinger 6, Warlock 2, Wizard 11

Blade Ward
Armor of Agathys
Absorb Elements

Elemental adept Cold at level 5 or as Bonus feat for ancestry (V Human or Custom Lineage).

This gives you 1 melee attack and resistance to Slash/Pierce/Bludgeon all the time at level 7. You can give your self 10 or more temp hp ~every combat which are effectively 20+ due to Blade Ward and Absorb Elements. As long as the temp hp last they deal their full initial amount as retributive Cold damage to melee attackers that hit which bypasses resistance due to Elemental Adept.

Whenever you absorb elements you’ll deal some extra d6s on your next melee attack. Bladesinger will put your AC through the roof.

Alternatively:
Conquest Paladin 6/Undead Warlock 1/Abjurer 13

CQP3/UW1/Abj5/CQP3/Abj8
V Human or Custom Lineage Heavy Armor Master
Toughness~8th.

You focus on Armor of Agathys and Heavy Weapon attacks.

Ask DM about when the Abjuration Ward loses HP. A lot of people say before resistance, I don’t, (it says it reduces damage you would have taken, you would not have taken half the damage from an attack you have resistance to. See similar discussion about GOOlock 10 and how much damage is dealt to a psychic attacker).

You’ll never get Wish but you’ll be virtually indestructible at 7+ And can make a Simulacrum to be similarly indestructible.

Bobthewizard

2021-08-15, 07:04 PM

I vote for an echo knight fighter, ancestral guardian multi class. You can attack through the echo, then the target has disadvantage to hit anyone except you, but you are 30' away. You need 3 levels of each but after that you can go wither way for the rest.

Here's the first one I saw

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24560104&postcount=30

Then LudicSavant did a version, which is more how I would build it

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511

Contrast

2021-08-15, 08:12 PM

Ask DM about when the Abjuration Ward loses HP. A lot of people say before resistance, I don’t, (it says it reduces damage you would have taken, you would not have taken half the damage from an attack you have resistance to. See similar discussion about GOOlock 10 and how much damage is dealt to a psychic attacker).

For reference the Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) has this to say:

How does Arcane Ward interact with temporary hit points and damage resistance that an abjurer might have?

An Arcane Ward is not an extension of the wizard who creates it. It is a magical effect with its own hit points. Any temporary hit points, immunities, or resistances that the wizard has don’t apply to the ward. The ward takes damage first. Any leftover damage is taken by the wizard and goes through the following game elements in order:
(1) any relevant damage immunity,
(2) any relevant damage resistance,
(3) any temporary hit points, and
(4) real hit points.

Unoriginal

2021-08-15, 08:37 PM

Sception

2021-08-15, 08:59 PM

Ideally, a strong party tank can cover for party members with lower individual defenses, letting other party members make build choices that prioritize offense over defense, and thus the overall party's offense can be more effective than if you prioritized your own character's personal offensive ability.

However, this only works if the party needs that protection. D&D is always a cooperative game, but 5e is less explicit about how parties are supposed to fit together and what combat roles individual classes are supposed to fill than 4e was. To enable the most possible workable party configurations, pretty much every class either has significant defensive features built in, or else has build options that allow the player to shore up their character's defenses if they need to. If the whole party is hard as nails, then the tank encouraging enemies to concentrate their attacks is counterproductive.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b65051b118552f4f861a6fd1ffef8217/2ffda248386e5efe-8a/s400x600/e6ae2a0912267bb67deab8d2128410864cd18638.png

So yeah, knowing what the other characters in the party are can be very useful when deciding which tank is the best choice or even whether a tank is desirable in the first place. That said, there are some common tank features that are pretty universally useful. Many tanks use personal damage output as one of the ways they encourage enemies to focus on them, and even if you don't so much need tanking such a character also fills a direct damage role that's almost always useful. Another common tank feature is localized zone control and area denial. Whether by generating difficult terrain, or reducing enemy movement via proning, grabbing, or other means, frighten effects, the sentinel feat, or any other abilities that can make it difficult or impossible for enemies to pass through their reach, these sorts of 'melee controller' type abilities are almost always useful as they can help break up enemy formations and battle tactics, dictating the flow of combat around you.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/e015c541e643ccf6d9099b98ce97660d/c144ed4d78381ef0-70/s400x600/8fd4efcec19559113f6dca26aaae11fabbf64a93.png

If you can control where the enemy can go, then you can often choose who they're even allowed to attack, forcing them to concentrate on you if that's optimal, or dividing their attacks between you and other party members if it isn't, or sometimes even preventing enemies from attacking altogether.

So with all that in mind, If I had to recommend a tank without knowing anything about your game or party members otherwise, I would choose...

https://64.media.tumblr.com/78a97d9f1a4e299011a5c7edcb3948ff/2ffda248386e5efe-f5/s500x750/01ead65cb2384bad13228b5c87c90ad5c42463b0.png

A variant human conquest paladin with sentinel as your human bonus feat, single classed through level 9 at least, at which point you can look at dipping into hexblade or undead warlock, clockwork or divine soul sorcerer, eloquence bard, or just sticking with paladin through level 13 or even longer.

Paladins are pretty effective tanks in 5e by default. They have decent defensive features: solid AC due to their proficiencies which can be raised even higher when needed with spells like shield of faith; great saving throws from level 6 on thanks to Aura of Protection, which they share with nearby allies, and can enhance further with Bless, which can also be shared with allies; and healing spells and abilities - most notably lay on hands which scales well with paladin levels and doesn't require spell slots to use.

Paladins can also encourage enemies to target them or discourage enemies from targeting their allies through strong damage output with extra attack and divine smite, the threat of high powered opportunity attacks also thanks to divine smite, and they access to some strong concentration spells - like bless - which enemies may be motivated to try to shut down. If you have access to the expanded spell lists in tasha's cauldron, you also get warding bond at level 5, which is a very solid tanking spell, and spirit shroud at level 9, which is a nice boost to damage which also reduces the movement speed of nearby enemies. Great all round spell there, though you do have to wait until level 9 to get it.

I mean, yeah, that's a hodge podge of solid damage, healing, and support abilities that are useful even if you aren't tanking (which leads back to my overall point here) but you absolutely can use those abilities to tank if you want to.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/37754324/you-want-to-heal-tank-and-dps-thats-a-paladin.jpg

The sentinel feat improves your tanking abilities (and marks you out as a tanking paladin instead of just a paladin who can tank in a pinch) by letting you use a reaction to attack enemies in your reach that choose to attack your allies instead of you, and your opportunity attacks cancel enemy movement, which can outright prevent melee ranged enemies from attacking allies further away. Sentinel is one of the stronger tanking abilities in the game, so variant human letting you grab it at level one really helps establish the play style early on. Later, when you've got more of your conquest abilities, sentinel is still useful since it lets you significantly hamper the options even of enemies who are immune to frighten or who happen to pass their saves.

If your allies don't really need that sort of protection, well, you can still threaten significant single damage output between extra attack, divine smite, and, if you make it to level 11, improved divine smite. And your aura of protection will always be fantastic. And you've still got solid healing & support abilities and spells.

Conquest specifically brings a number of additional interesting options to the table. For one, you get that cool edge lord anti-hero vibe, can't discount that. But mechanically you also get a focus on frighten-based aoe control, with a great channel divinity at level 3 and the Fear spell at level 9, and in between you'll get aura of conquest at level 7 that makes your frighten effects much more frightening by reducing the movement of nearby enemies who are frightened of you to zero.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/70e206a335704a6d75b6f4155c83b837/c144ed4d78381ef0-ff/s400x600/85093ba7ea44f293044f44200725aa1ca74ab46a.png

This is exactly the kind of localized crowd control that can make a tank useful even in a party that doesn't need you to pull attacks away from vulnerable allies. The aura also makes the single target frighten effect of wrathful smite, already a decent spell when dealing with tough but weak willed brute monsters like ogres & trolls, much more effective, so you'll want to familiarize yourself with that spell early on.

Conquest isn't completely without trade offs, though. You'll be more dependent on your charisma for save DCs than other paladins. You can and should start with 16s in both strength and constitution, assuming your game uses point buy, but you'll want to prioritize raising charisma before raising your attack stat with your ASIs. This isn't a huge burden, since you really can make do for a long time on a starting 16 strength, and higher charisma also means higher aura of protection, but it will mean dealing a bit less damage and missing a few more attacks compared to other melee characters as you level up.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/96318b63fe4c50fbdca74f05dc4da7ab/472bb41be68334bd-db/s1280x1920/fc5909158626d933e2ab1aa97c173a7cdeba4dd9.png

You'll also be more dependent on concentration spells than most paladins, so you'll want to burn a feat on either war caster or resilient constitution (generally speaking you want the former if you plan to multiclass and the latter if you don't, and if you're going to take resilient con be sure to start with an odd constitution score and take it as early as level 4 to round it out, or even take it at level one and save sentinel for level 4). This puts even more pressure on your ASIs and further delays raising your weapon attack stat. So you'll want to snag any gauntlets of ogre power or belts of giant strength your party finds, and if you haven't found any by the time you raise your charisma to 20, then you'll really want to multiclass into at least one level of hexblade immediately after doing so.

You will do less damage on average than other paladins, because you're using your limited spell slots more on frighten effects than on divine smites and damage buffs, and because you're using your ASIs on raising your charisma and propping up your concentration saves instead of raising your strength and grabbing weapon feats like polearm master or great weapon master. But you can still do solid damage by default thanks to extra attack (and later improved divine smite if you make it that far). And when you're confronted with frighten-immune or spell-resistant enemies, or bosses with legendary saves or just sky-high wisdom saves, you can always just start smiting or casting spirit shrouds like a normal paladin would.

https://i.redd.it/81ytnaei4ss31.jpg

Conquest even has spiritual weapon as an oath spell at level 5 to help out in just such situations, giving you a solid damage boost (and use of bonus actions) that lasts over an entire fight with only a single spell slot invested. That's spell slot efficiency is appreciated because it helps you save slots for Wrathful Smites and Fears when you do have good targets for them.

Honestly, one of the tricks with a paladin can be finding the right pace to use your spells. Smite them away too quickly and you won't have anything left for tough fights. Save them too long and you might not use them at all. Conquest naturally helps new paladin players to develop good spell use habits by encouraging you to spread your spell slots out through the course of the day & rewarding you for using long lasting spells that will pay dividends over the course of an entire combat instead of always smiting your spell slots away for quick & easy up front damage. Don't get me wrong, Divine Smite is still a useful tool in your arsenal, but one that you learn to save for just the right occasions.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/c87df937b79437dcef92583c761340be/c144ed4d78381ef0-f5/s250x400/45b07ab37ead831d6ba32e16d46aa06e8d775404.png

The point is that the build is very versatile, with a variety of tools for tanking, damage, healing, buffing, and control, allowing you to adapt your tactics based on the particular party you find yourself playing in and the particular enemies you're going up against. You're a very solid tank, if not the tankiest tank in the game, but you're also so much more than that.

sithlordnergal

2021-08-15, 09:06 PM

So, you really have two big options for tanking. You can tank via AC, or tank via HP. I'm sure there are a few other ways to tank via some gimmicks, but these are the most straightforward methods. There are pros and cons to both, and both have a few build options:

---Tanking via AC---

Pros

Highly effective at early levels, and can still be effective at mid-levels
Allows you to avoid damage completely
increases effectiveness of spells/effects that give disadvantage to hit you
Even minimal investment can produce decent results

Cons

Less effective the higher your level
Heavily relies on items provided by DM to stay relevant at later levels
Cost to get decent AC early on can be high
Most builds with insane AC have lower HP
Requires significant investment early on if you want to remain a Tank at levels 12-20

The long and short of it with AC tanking is that with the right build you can get an AC of 21 really, really early without any magic items. That 21 AC is going to work just fine until around level 12. After level 12, AC becomes less and less important, and eventually AC no longer matters unless you can get yourself a 30+ AC due to NPC's having a +14 to attack rolls or more. At that point you'll have needed to focus your build on AC for a while, and you'll need a DM to give you items that boost your AC, like +1 - +3 Sheilds/Armor, Ring/Cloaks of Protection, ect.

One thing to keep in mind with AC focused builds is that spells are your friend. Shield of Faith and Haste both increase AC by 2, and the Shield spell increases your AC by 5. That said, you're generally going to have lower HP because you need to take levels of Wizard or Sorcerer to get the spells and spell slots needed to effectively defend yourself Here are a couple of decent builds. For the most part they all use the same methods, get a high AC via armor, then use Shield to avoid being hit:

Your standard Paladin/Sorcerer build. Start off as a Paladin to get Heavy Armor, take the Defense Fighting Style, always have Shield of Faith prepared, and take Shield as a Sorcerer spell. With standard Full Plate and a Shield, you'll have a base 21 AC. This will work perfectly fine for most of your career. If you fight something with a high attack bonus, Shield of Faith can add a +2 to your AC to boost it to 23, and the Shield spell can be your ace in the hole, giving you a max of 28 AC without any magical items.

Downside is that you can't concentrate on anything else with Shield of Faith and your HP is lower than average due to the Sorcerer levels. The upside is that Paladin and Sorcerer mesh really, really, REALLY well together and make for a super solid multiclass build.

Like the Soradin, you're going to want to take Fighter first for Heavy Armor, the Defense fighting style, and the Shield spell. You lack Shield of Faith, but eventually you can get Haste so it sort of evens out. Your AC is going to be the same as the Soradin, 21 base AC with full plate, +5 from Shield, and eventually +2 from Haste. Your HP is still low due to Wizard levels, but that can be fixed by going Abjuration. Benefits of this over the Soradin is that you have a lot more spell options as a Wizard then you do as a Sorcerer.

This one is a pure, non-multiclass Wizard. Bladesinger lets you add your Int modifier to your AC when you go into a Blade Song. Meaning you can get some crazy high AC if you have Mage Armor, a high Dex, and a high Int. Heck, with 20 Int, 20 Dex, and Mage Armor, you end up with a base 23 AC when you use Blade Song. Additionally, you'll be a pure Wizard, which means you don't have to hold off on waiting for spells and spell slots. You get them all.

The downside is that this build takes longer to reach those super high AC levels because you need to max out your Dex and Int, which means you'll be at least level 16 before you can get to 23 AC with a Blade Song. Blade Song is also a limited resource, you can only use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus every day. So if you use it too often, you could end up in a fight without it, and your AC will take a significant hit. Finally, you have the HP of a Wizard, and you'll be spending most of your ASI's on increasing your ability scores, so you're limited on how many feats you get to have.

---------

---Tanking via HP---

Pros

You'll become nigh unkillable at late levels
Doesn't require quite as much investment
Doesn't require any specific magic items to be effective
Holds up pretty well at mid-levels

Cons

Your AC is generally lower, meaning you can only last as long as your HP
There are really only three classes/subclasses that are experts at tanking via HP
You're extremely fragile in the early levels
Two of your options for tanking via HP do it in a way that you can't really cast any spells

For HP tanking, you really only have three options, Barbarian, Moon Druid, and Abjuration Wizard. There are, technically, other ways you can tank via HP by using Temp HP, but those methods generally don't give you enough Temp HP to really last more than another round. The upside to these three is that you don't really have to worry about your AC, which means you don't have to rely on the DM handing out specific items for you to use to stay relevant as a tank. Also, since these methods give you a large amount of HP, you don't have to worry as much when you are hit as compared to a Fighter/Wizard. Taking 50 damage or more is nothing to a high level Moon Druid or Barbarian, but could be almost 30% of a Fighter/Wizard's max HP.

The downside of this is that, with the exception of the Moon Druid, you're fragile in lower levels. Even a Barbarian is going to go down if they get hit by a few lucky crits when they're between the levels 1 to 4. Not only that but Moon Druids and Barbarians can't cast spells when they're using their abilities that let them tank with their HP, though again Moon Druid has a special exception. On the other hand, Abjuration Wizards are pretty decent at tanking via HP because they essentially have a second HP pool via their Ward.

Here's the basic rundown of the big three:

Barbarian is the simplest of the trio. Long story short, you have a ton of HP, and you can use your Rage ability to halve incoming Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage. The best two subclasses for tanking as a Barbarian are, in my opinion, the Totem and Zealot Barbarians. Totem Barbarian lets you be an amazing tank in the early levels, as Bear Totem lets you halve all damage you take, except Psychic damage.

Zealot Barbarian is a bit interesting. You'll halve Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage, you deal more damage then a Totem Barbarian, and it lets you ignore material components for spells that bring you back to life. Its a bit weaker at tanking in the early levels, but at level 14 you gain the ability Rage Beyond Death, which basically means you don't fall unconscious at 0 HP and you don't die if you have 3 Death Save fails while you're Raging. Basically, you won't die even if you are at 0 HP, and all it takes to keep you alive is 1 point of healing.

Downside of Barbarian is that you have a limited number of Rages per day, from 2 to 6, until you reach level 20 when you have Unlimited Rages. Rage also only lasts for a minute, and you can be knocked out of Rage by falling unconscious, not attacking for a round, or not being attacked for a round. Eventually you can only lose your Rage early if you're knocked unconscious at level 15. The other downside is you can't cast or concentrate on spells while Raging, so Barbarian/Wizards have it a bit rough.

This one is also pretty simple. See, Abjuration Wizards have something called an Arcane Ward. It essentially acts as a separate HP pool for your Wizard, and, notably, its not considered Temp HP. What this means is you can have your Ward and a source of Temp HP up at the same time. You can also recharge your Arcane Ward by casting Abjuration spells, it'll regain HP equal to 2*The spell level. So that means you can give it a small amount of HP during encounters, or recover it completely between encounters. A fun trick is to get the Warlock Invocation that lets you cast Mage Armor at will, that way you can always have it at max after every encounter without spending any resources. One last fun thing to note is that if your Ward takes damage and you don't, you don't need to make a Concentration check.

Due to how the Ward works with Temp HP and can be recharged, you can take two levels of Warlock, snag the Mage Armor Invocation, and take Armor of Agathys for even more HP to tank with. The Ward itself has a max HP of 2*Wizard Level + Int Modifier, and Armor of Agathys is a 1st level spell that gives you 5 Temp HP per level you cast it at. Meaning a Wizard 5 / 2 Warlock with an 18 Int will have a total of 29 bonus HP to rely on if you use your 3rd level slot for Armor of Agathys. Even better, the Ward is depleted before the Temp HP, so you can use Armor of Agathys' 5 cold damage per hit for a longer amount of time.

Honestly, the biggest downside for Abjuration Wizard is that the Ward 's HP is kind of low. Its decent at low to mid-range levels, but once you reach high levels 45 bonus HP isn't all that much. And to make things worse, once its gone its not easy to refill in the middle of combat. Not to mention, unless you do what I said above and get the Mage Armor at will Invocation, which takes multiclassing or a Feat, you have to spend a lot of resources to get your Ward back to full after every encounter.

I saved my favorite way to tank for last. Partially because Moon Druids are tied with Wild Magic Sorcerers as my favorite subclass in the game, and partially because Druids, and Moon Druids especially, happen to be one of the most complicated classes in the game. They also take everything I said about how you're fragile at lower levels when you tank with HP and how you don't need DMs to give you anything, and throw all of that out the window. Provided you're taking the average HP after every level up, a Moon Druid with 14 Constitution will, technically, have more HP available to them then a Raging Barbarian with a 16 Constitution until level around 10.

HOWEVER, and this is a really, REALLY big however, you need to have seen a beast in order to transform into them via Wild Shape. Meaning in order to keep up with a Barbarin's HP values, you'll have to have seen a Dire Wolf, Giant Octopus, and Giant Constrictor Snake. Additionally, those animal's attacks don't scale, at all. So while you may, technically, have more HP available then the Barbarian, the Barbarian is going to do a lot more damage. Case in point, the Giant Constrictor Snake may have 60 HP, but it can only attack once per turn, has a +6 to hit, and only deals an average of 11 or 13 damage depending on which attack you use. In a 1 v 1 fight, I'd bet money on the Barbarian simply because they can deal more damage faster than the Druid can.

Wildshape is also a complicated ability. Unlike Rage, you can Concentrate on spells, but you can't cast any spells in beast form until level 18. Moon Druids can turn into beasts they've seen that have a CR equal to 1/3rd their Druid level, so its super strong early on, but starts falling off at around levels 8 to 9. You also get 2 uses of Wildshape per Short Rest, so while you are able to use them more often then a Barbarian over the course of the day, you only get 2 per encounter. Moon Druids can also use their Wldshape as a Bonus Action, meaning they can still attack after turning into a beast. Finally, at level 10 they can turn into an Air, Earth, Fire, or Water Elemental, even if they haven't seen those Elementals. You'll also need to talk to your DM about what happens to your equipment, and what you can/cannot use, because Wildshape basically says "Its up to the DM if you can use this stuff". And last, but certainly not least, you can use Wildshape an unlimited number of times at level 20.

All of this culminates into a subclass that is the best tank in the game, bar none, at early levels, becomes less of a tank after about level 6 or 7, becomes a terrible HP tank at around level 12 or so, and then basically becomes an unkillable god at level 20, with the only real dangers to them being Power Word Kill and Disintegrate.

Sception

2021-08-15, 09:22 PM

sithlordnergal

2021-08-15, 10:04 PM

Moon druids are a complicated mechanical mess unfit for new players, and also op broken to heck and back from levels 2 to like 5 or 6 unfit for any players.

Please don't subject your dm/party to that.

I mean, if they're up to the challenge then I say do it. Moon Druids are my favorite subclass with Wild Magic Sorcerer for a reason, they let you do a lot of fun and interesting things via Wild Shape without losing out on spells.

Kane0

2021-08-16, 04:34 AM

My vote would be a paladin, crown fits thematically but most subclasses are great tanks.

Second to that some flavor of fighter, like cavalier.

Barbarian (ancestral, totem, zealot) would also be there but youve stated you'd rather not

Those are the straightforward ones. You can also mix in some rogue (expertise in grappling, bonus action movement, evasion/uncanny dodge plus subclass benefits) if you want to get tricky.

Otherwise you also have some more complex and thoughtful caster options. Artillerist or armorerer artificer, abjurer wizard, THP-spam warlock, moon oniondruid, half a dozen varieties of cleric...

Oh and monk of the long death. Theres a tank option for virtually every class even before looking at races and feats!

Sception

2021-08-16, 07:22 AM

I mean, if they're up to the challenge then I say do it. Moon Druids are my favorite subclass with Wild Magic Sorcerer for a reason, they let you do a lot of fun and interesting things via Wild Shape without losing out on spells.

One character with more damage output than anyone else in the party, more hit points than the entire rest of the party put together, and spells on top is a recipe for other players feeling like their characters are pointless and for DMs feeling like they need to ramp up combat challenge until those other players who already feel bad about their characters being so completely overshadowed also have to watch those same characters one-shot by enemies that ~still~ can't meaningfully threaten the druid.

Moon Druid is a neat concept, but the execution is so far beyond busted at the all important low levels of the game that it really is just a bad idea to allow them as a DM or to select them as a player if your DM doesn't know any better.

Unoriginal

2021-08-16, 07:30 AM

Sception

2021-08-16, 07:38 AM

Oh and monk of the long death. Theres a tank option for virtually every class even before looking at races and feats!

Long Death is going to have a lot of trouble tanking. Yeah, your defense can be solid with bonus action dodge, but that burns through your ki point supply way too quickly at early levels, and as soon as you run out you become pretty squishy indeed. And at those early levels you lack good tools to pull enemy attention away from other party members, especially since patient defense has to be used pre-emptively, bonus action or no, you still have to dodge on your turn, so enemies can see you dodging and just decide to attack other party members.

Later on you get the at will frighten burst for no ki which is pretty cool and can absolutely draw heat, but it's not party friendly which can make it pretty difficult to use, to the point that it would honestly be more useful if the burst were smaller.

Long Death is far from the worst subclass in the game - far from the worst monk in particular - but I just don't see them working terribly well as a tank specifically. At best they can effectively do some off tanking here and there as a side gig once they get the frighten at, what, level 6? But that isn't the same as being a tank, which to me implies that you can effectively be tanking for most of the rounds of a typical adventuring day, and can be doing the job at least from like level 2 or 3 at the latest.

Gtdead

2021-08-16, 07:40 AM

How does a Moon Druid have more damage output than anyone else in the party?

Brown bear can attack 2 times for 1d8+4 and 2d6+4 for a total of 19 which is as good as it gets at lvl 2. Only vhuman martials with feats and war cleric can match that up till lvl 5. This is probably what Malisteen is getting at and he would be right. Bear is ridiculous that early..

Sception

2021-08-16, 08:08 AM

How does a Moon Druid have more damage output than anyone else in the party?

At level 2 a moon druid can wild shape into a challenge rating 1 dienonychus, which has a multiattack for two claw attacks at +4 to hit and d8+2 damage plus a bite attack for the same +4 to hit and d8+2 damage. That's already going to handily beat out the at will damage of any other character at this level, and honestly is about on par with what a paladin is going to be doing with a divine smite, something they can only do twice per day at level two, or what a fighter can do with action surge, which they can only do once per short rest.

But that's not even everything yet, because the dienonychus also has a pounce ability where if it moves 20 feet before the attack and hits with one of the two claw attacks, the target must save vs. prone, and if they're prone (from this ability or just otherwise) then the dienonychus can make an additional bite attack as a bonus action, which will put them ahead of the damage anyone else is doing in a round even with resource-expending features.

So yeah, level 2 a moon druid can outdamage any other character in the game.

And I note you didn't even contest the point on HP. But just to lay it out, Dienonychus has 26 hit points, which is essentially added to the druids HP total each time you wild shape, and you can wild shape twice per short rest, so with even one short rest in the day the druid will have 104 hit points in addition to whatever hit points they already have, which is easily more than the rest of the party put together, probably 2 or 3 times over, and would be too broken to countenance even discounting the damage output. Imagine if there were a fighter subclass that, as a level 2 feature, gained +100 maximum hit points. The ban hammers would be flying left and right, and rightly so. That's absurd, and that's with only a very conservative estimate of 1 short rest per day, and Dienonychus isn't even the most HP you can get, that's just the HP that you happen to get when you wild shape purely for damage output.

If you want to be tankier, as a moon druid looking to tank theoretically does - or if your DM just says no to exotic dinosaur shapes from non-PHB source books - then you go with the traditional default Brown Bear, which is almost always available. A brown bear has 34 hit points - or 136 per day with only a single short rest before you even get into the druid's hit points and hit dice. Even if the druid is just down to a single wild shape left, when you add that to the druid's own hp you're looking at 53 hit points - more effective HP than a raging barbarian of the same level. AND the druid can burn spell slots to self heal while wild shaped on top of that. Any enemy encounter that can reasonably threaten to down the druid risks killing other characters outright, and any adventuring day that can reasonably threaten to burn through that druids total HP reserves risks wiping out the entire rest of the party.

And the brown bear is no slouch offensively either, with two attacks at +5 to hit, one for d8+4 damage and one for 2d6+4 damage, which is already going to be at least on par with what other top tier damage dealers are doing at this level when expending limited resources, and the druid can be doing that all combat long for two combats per short rest, which more often than not ime (though admittedly campaign styles vary) is going to be every encounter of the adventuring day.

And yeah, ok, to be fair both brown bear and dienonychus have terrible AC, but when your HP is so wildly outside the threshold of normalcy that hardly matters.

...

Moon druid wild shapes do scale poorly. So poorly that you're not really impressing anybody with your damage output by level 5 or 6. By level 9 you're either just a regular druid with an emergency hit point button or you're still trying to be the shapechanging character, but your offensive output has fallen through the floor because their forms hardly scale at all and have a terrible time with the increasingly common damage resistance you start to see as you level. Elemental forms at level 10 help, but most campaigns are ending around then so while they are a cool effective capstone, you probably won't get too much use out of them.

So moon druids always have too many hit points, but they're only really a nightmare for game balance from levels
2 to 4. But first impressions of the game are important, so those early levels are critical. Especially for new players like OP. The moon druid being so horribly broken at those early levels just makes for a terrible first impression. And that's before you get to the hassle and book keeping of playing/DMing for one, especially with new players involved.

Again, moon druids are a cool idea. Very cool. But the implementation is a mess. Yes, they can tank like nothing else in the game at early levels, but even so my advice is absolutely to steer clear.

stoutstien

2021-08-16, 08:51 AM

People tend to hyper focus on the moon druid when they get a spike due to increased CR available but not the levels in between.

Keravath

2021-08-16, 09:30 AM

Thanks for the advice!

To use your vernacular, I am looking to be extremely hard to kill but also want to reduce party damage if at all possible. I am not worried about super strong offense, as the rest of the party will worry about damage. I just want to be that shield that holds the line for my mates.

"that shield that holds the line for my mates" is a concept that doesn't work that well in 5e. The only real option to constrain opponents movement is the terrain where you choose to fight.

-The sentinel feat can be used to stop one creature that tries to move past you, if you hit. Each turn you only have one reaction which would allow for one opportunity attack.

On the other hand, if you want to be at the front so that enemies might be more likely to attack you first rather than running past you to attack others then you want to have a high AC and/or a lot of hit points.

Hit points - this is probably best handled as a moon druid possibly with a level of barbarian (the barbarian level can increase the AC of various wild shapes and the ability to rage while wild shaped makes the hit points last longer). At low to medium level (particularly level 2-4) the damage from the moon druid shapes is more than most other characters can deal out. The druid is also a full caster with a wide range of spells to support the party.

AC+hit points - paladin likely with one level of hexblade warlock. Taking a level of hexblade warlock lets you use charisma for attack rolls with a designated one handed weapon, it also gives you access to the shield spell which can be used to boost your AC at the cost of a level 1 spell slot. Paladins can wear medium or heavy armor and use a shield. If you go with a paladin with a shield and spear you can also pick up the polearm master feat for an extra bonus action attack. You can choose the defensive fighting style for a higher AC or the dueling fighting style for a +2 damage on each weapon attack. Start variant human with the PAM feat. The paladin has a d10 for hit points. The paladin also has healing and other party support spells.

Either of these could work for what you are looking for but with very different approaches.

P.S. Often the goal in 5e is to eliminate the opponents as fast as possible - a paladin has the option to use their spell slots for smites which can give them a lot of burst damage.

Sception

2021-08-16, 09:54 AM

People tend to hyper focus on the moon druid when they get a spike due to increased CR available but not the levels in between.

I mentioned that they scale poorly and aren't a problem (at least not a balance problem) by like levels 5 or 6, and by 8 and 9 are almost a problem in the other direction as it can be hard to be effectively contribute while wild shaped. But, again, first impressions matter, especially for new players. Level 1 tends to go by in a flash, but levels 2 to 4 absolutely set the tone for a campaign and in many cases determine whether the DM and players are motivated to keep the game going long term. Those are arguably the most important levels in the game, and a moon druid in the party absolutely destroys them.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-16, 11:05 AM

I mentioned that they scale poorly and aren't a problem (at least not a balance problem) by like levels 5 or 6, and by 8 and 9 are almost a problem in the other direction as it can be hard to be effectively contribute while wild shaped. But, again, first impressions matter, especially for new players. Level 1 tends to go by in a flash, but levels 2 to 4 absolutely set the tone for a campaign and in many cases determine whether the DM and players are motivated to keep the game going long term. Those are arguably the most important levels in the game, and a moon druid in the party absolutely destroys them.

The 2 Moon Druid's I've DMed I've just never put a CR 1 beast in by level 2 for the character to see and transform into (the published mods I used didn't have one, so no changes were needed). The players never had an issue with this, and shouldn't since a black bear is more than enough by that level. I don't know if that's the interpretation others use, but I can't imagine most players would have an issue with just using the Level/3 metric and not the 'rule breaking' rule at 2nd level. Clearly Moon Druids are still strong at early levels, but for me anyway this worked well enough.

Edit: I disagree with the comment about being able to contribute meaningfully by level 8/9. I think this is born of a comparison to early levels. They still have amazing ability to contribute to the exploration pillar through Wild Shape and spells like Pass Without Trace. They can get where they need to go through air and sea. They still have a bucket of hp to act as a meat shield in combat, (while not doing a pile of damage). To the OP they can still take Sentinel and effectively stop enemies from passing them by. And they are still full casters. I'd just say they are more balanced at this point.

Sception

2021-08-16, 11:49 AM

The 2 Moon Druid's I've DMed I've just never put a CR 1 beast in by level 2 for the character to see and transform into (the published mods I used didn't have one, so no changes were needed).

There's a certain amount of basic familiarity with natural creatures in general that should kind of just come with being a druid. The idea that a druid could even get to level 1 without ever having seen or heard of a brown bear (or a lion, or a giant spider, or a dire wolf, or a giant hyena, or whatever other similarly powerful CR 1 Beasts happen to live in the region) kind of stretches credulity to me. I mean, what are they even teaching young druids in druid school these days :p

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/65A1/production/_101571062_pigeon.jpg

Flavor aside, the idea that at level 2 you had to limit the druid in your party to the CR 1/2 Black Bear implies that you feel the actual moon druid rules at that level are written to allow wild shapes that are fully twice as powerful as they should be. Honestly even just a black bear is probably too strong with how borked the wild shape hit point mechanics are (again, if there were a fighter option at that level that granted effectively 40 temporary HP per short rest, people would have no hesitation bringing down the ban hammer), and two attacks per attack action is still hitting probably too strong for even a more combat oriented full caster subclass, even if the +3 hit bonus on black bears does stop them from being as completely overblown as the brown bear alternative that the core rules practically push moon druids towards.

It's a mess that wants a lot of homebrew restrictions to reign it in at the crucial 2 to 4 level range, and should honestly just be avoided outright or it risks making the game unfun for everyone else in the sessions that are most important for building engagement and long term commitment to a campaign.

Unoriginal

2021-08-16, 11:50 AM

"that shield that holds the line for my mates" is a concept that doesn't work that well in 5e. The only real option to constrain opponents movement is the terrain where you choose to fight.

There are many ways to restrict an opponent's options in combat.

For example, Cavalier and Ancestral Guardian make their allies harder targets, for example, which make the foes have to choose between trying to hit said harder target or the source of the effect, and knocking someone to the ground (which can be done via special abilities like the Open Hand Monk's feature or the Shield Master feat as well as by regular the Attack action if you choose to) costs them half their movement to get up (while making them more vulnerable to melee attacks if they don't get up).

BerzerkerUnit

2021-08-16, 12:33 PM

For reference the Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) has this to say:

Sage Advice: Boldly ignoring the text in the book so the Devs can try to rebalance things they don’t like (when bonus actions can occur, what Arcane Ward does, etc).

Here’s the relevant text: “ Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead.”

If you take damage, you apply things that modify that damage to determine how much damage you take. The Ward should be taking that much damage instead, not a bunch of damage you wouldn’t take.

That said, I respect the decision of any DM to rule in accordance with it or ignore it.

sithlordnergal

2021-08-16, 04:04 PM

One character with more damage output than anyone else in the party, more hit points than the entire rest of the party put together, and spells on top is a recipe for other players feeling like their characters are pointless and for DMs feeling like they need to ramp up combat challenge until those other players who already feel bad about their characters being so completely overshadowed also have to watch those same characters one-shot by enemies that ~still~ can't meaningfully threaten the druid.

Moon Druid is a neat concept, but the execution is so far beyond busted at the all important low levels of the game that it really is just a bad idea to allow them as a DM or to select them as a player if your DM doesn't know any better.

I mean, it is powerful at really low levels, but you blow by those levels pretty quickly. And in order for the Moon Druid to stay ahead of everyone, the DM needs to be throwing out some pretty specific creatures. As you noted in a different reply, the deinonychus is a deadly powerhouse when it comes to damage. But its also a dinosaur...and most DMs don't toss dinos into a game unless they're doing something setting specific, like an adventure in Chult. Same with a lot of the other beasts. Giant Spiders may be common, but how often do you run into Dire Wolves, or Giant Octopi? I don't really see an issue with letting a player feel powerful at level 2, especially when that power is going to drop off really, really quickly. Sure the Druid is going to have a ton of HP with their forms, but they're going to find those forms lack the damage to be top tier.

Now that isn't to say I feel Moon Druids become weak, far from it. I played a Moon Druid from level 1 to 20 in AL, and even the points when my Moon Druid was supposedly "weaker" I was still more than capable of aiding my party. But as both a player and DM, I've never really seen the "balance" issues a Moon Druid brings to the table. Heck, I'm running Tomb of Annihilation currently with a party that has a Moon Druid, Wildfire Druid, Scout Rogue/Knowledge Cleric, Horizon Walker Ranger, Chronurgy Wizard, Astral Monk, and a Hexblade Warlock/Shadow Sorcerer. So far the Wildfire Druid has been the biggest pain to deal with in the party because their summon is such a flexible ally. I can't really pin any one player down because if someone gets in too deep, the spirit just teleports them away from the danger.

And hell, the Moon Druid in ToA has nothing on how infuriating the Artificer is in my Homebrew. I'd take a full party of Moon Druids long before I welcome another Artificer to my table.

stoutstien

2021-08-16, 04:12 PM

I mean, it is powerful at really low levels, but you blow by those levels pretty quickly. And in order for the Moon Druid to stay ahead of everyone, the DM needs to be throwing out some pretty specific creatures. As you noted in a different reply, the deinonychus is a deadly powerhouse when it comes to damage. But its also a dinosaur...and most DMs don't toss dinos into a game unless they're doing something setting specific, like an adventure in Chult. Same with a lot of the other beasts. Giant Spiders may be common, but how often do you run into Dire Wolves, or Giant Octopi? I don't really see an issue with letting a player feel powerful at level 2, especially when that power is going to drop off really, really quickly. Sure the Druid is going to have a ton of HP with their forms, but they're going to find those forms lack the damage to be top tier.

Now that isn't to say I feel Moon Druids become weak, far from it. I played a Moon Druid from level 1 to 20 in AL, and even the points when my Moon Druid was supposedly "weaker" I was still more than capable of aiding my party. But as both a player and DM, I've never really seen the "balance" issues a Moon Druid brings to the table. Heck, I'm running Tomb of Annihilation currently with a party that has a Moon Druid, Wildfire Druid, Scout Rogue/Knowledge Cleric, Horizon Walker Ranger, Chronurgy Wizard, Astral Monk, and a Hexblade Warlock/Shadow Sorcerer. So far the Wildfire Druid has been the biggest pain to deal with in the party because their summon is such a flexible ally. I can't really pin any one player down because if someone gets in too deep, the spirit just teleports them away from the danger.

And hell, the Moon Druid in ToA has nothing on how infuriating the Artificer is in my Homebrew. I'd take a full party of Moon Druids long before I welcome another Artificer to my table.

Hehe. One of the reasons artificers make such good tanks is the fact they are annoyingly hearty and always have someway to be a pain in the side of team NPC. They have a meta level of aggro that is hard to quantify in the same vien wizards do.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-16, 08:47 PM

There's a certain amount of basic familiarity with natural creatures in general that should kind of just come with being a druid. The idea that a druid could even get to level 1 without ever having seen or heard of a brown bear (or a lion, or a giant spider, or a dire wolf, or a giant hyena, or whatever other similarly powerful CR 1 Beasts happen to live in the region) kind of stretches credulity to me. I mean, what are they even teaching young druids in druid school these days :p

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/65A1/production/_101571062_pigeon.jpg

Flavor aside, the idea that at level 2 you had to limit the druid in your party to the CR 1/2 Black Bear implies that you feel the actual moon druid rules at that level are written to allow wild shapes that are fully twice as powerful as they should be. Honestly even just a black bear is probably too strong with how borked the wild shape hit point mechanics are (again, if there were a fighter option at that level that granted effectively 40 temporary HP per short rest, people would have no hesitation bringing down the ban hammer), and two attacks per attack action is still hitting probably too strong for even a more combat oriented full caster subclass, even if the +3 hit bonus on black bears does stop them from being as completely overblown as the brown bear alternative that the core rules practically push moon druids towards.

It's a mess that wants a lot of homebrew restrictions to reign it in at the crucial 2 to 4 level range, and should honestly just be avoided outright or it risks making the game unfun for everyone else in the sessions that are most important for building engagement and long term commitment to a campaign.

Yeah, I'd say the rule that breaks the rule allowing a CR 1 Wild Shape at 2nd level is roughly double as good as it should be, and that's to a very good ability. But outside of that, is Wild Shape that much stronger than some of the feats a Vhuman could take at level 1 or spells like Sleep at very low level? A character with archery style and Sharp Shooter can average 17 1/2 points of damage through an arrow slit from 599 feet away with a very high likelihood to hit. Yes the black bear provides a lot of HP, but only AC 11 and is succeptable to Save or Suck spells, like Sleep. Beyond the one nerf at level 2 my experience doesn't support anything you wrote in your last paragraph.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-08-16, 10:20 PM

Long Death is going to have a lot of trouble tanking. Yeah, your defense can be solid with bonus action dodge, but that burns through your ki point supply way too quickly at early levels, and as soon as you run out you become pretty squishy indeed.

The Long Death monk has Touch of Death at 3rd level, which means once you 'feed' a LD Monk it has Monk Level + WIS modifier THP.

Quite the opposite of squishy, in fact.

Contrast

2021-08-17, 05:07 AM

The Long Death monk has Touch of Death at 3rd level, which means once you 'feed' a LD Monk it has Monk Level + WIS modifier THP.

Quite the opposite of squishy, in fact.

It is highly dependent on what sort of enemies you're fighting. If you're against 8 goblins, you're hella tanky. If you're fighting 2 ogres there's a good chance you're not getting any THP at all, particularly if you're spending Ki on dodging instead of Flurrying.

Its tanky for a monk but really only comes online fully at higher levels when you have more Ki to burn (a generic sentiment I share for all monks really in fairness).

Aimeryan

2021-08-17, 05:37 AM

To be a protector, you will need to ensure a good proportion of the enemies are not able damage to your teammates - just being tough yourself wont be enough. There is not an passive hard 'aggro' mechanic in 5e, so without any plan in mind enemies are going to run amok amongst your party. Some notes:

Opportunity Attacks (OA) are different to Attacks of Opportunity from 3.5e: You only make OAs when an enemy leaves your reach, rather than leaving a square within your reach. This has the big implication of meaning you don't get to make the OA until the enemy is already past you, and that having greater reach to cover more area also means more area the enemy can traverse before being subject to the OA. You also only get one, and while you can substitute a grapple or prone in, you are still only stopping one enemy this way (and potentially even that can fail). Single attack as well, in case you thought additional damage might be a useful deterrence. Essentially, very weak.

Enemies are not always dumb brutes: Some enemies can be expected to make a frontal charge at the nearest thing they can see, and stick there beating away - many enemies this cannot be expected of. You'll be ambushed by enemies from the back and sides, flyers, burrowers, hidden until sprung, etc. Some enemies will be smart enough to attempt to slip around to the easier (percieved or not) targets. Sometimes there will simply be too many to crowd around one person. Just being at the front can't be relied upon.

No Full Attack, movement can be split, no extra diagonal movement cost: If an enemy needs to go past you on the way to a party member, but wont be able to reach the party member this turn, they can unleash all their attacks on you as they move past, with no negatives. Whether or not you are there doesn't delay them, and now the party needs to heal the damage done to you in addition.

Ranged enemies: You don't block line of sight, and even if you did, you only occupy one square. Such enemies will simply ignore you; if these enemies are the major threat of the encounter then you need to be able to do something about it.

Some martial classes are tough without spending long rest resources: The passive defences of heavy armour and a shield, the hit dice, class abilities/features - all these make for being tough without having to spend long rest resources. Some of these defences are online at very early levels.

The mundane approach is not very sticky: You can substitute grapples and prones for melee attacks (which might still fail), but other than that you will likely just have one option - deal damage. Dealing damage doesn't make you 'sticky' as a tank; the rest of the party are also dealing damage (and probably a fair bit more), and are easier to take down then you are. Don't get me wrong; killing the enemy is a great way to stop them damaging party members, however, that isn't really the role of the tank. The options pure mundanes have for this role are just too limited unless your DM really does just throw at you dumb brute enemies.

With those notes, you can probably see why you don't want to be a tank without some magical means of aiding you in the role. Some notes on magical aid:

Difficult terrain or similar: Web, Grease, Spirit Guardians, etc., - these types of spells delay the enemy, allowing them to be dealt with before they reach those that are being protected. Spirit Guardians, in particular, is centered on the caster (15ft radius, so covering a fairly large area) which makes it great for a tank.

Walls spells: Can force enemies into a narrow area or divide enemies to be conquered piecemeal. Works well with the above type of spells.

Summons/minions: Enough of these create walls against movement by enemies, and unless the enemies are particularly intelligent these spells can take attacks meant for others.

Commands/suggestions: Magically compel the enemies to attack you, instead of the rest of the party. Closest thing to an aggro mechanic.

Control spells: More specifically, area control spells and the like - Hypnotic Pattern, for example. Locking down most of the enemies in an area is as good as tanking the hits - better even. Spammable single-target control is also very welcome in the form of the Booming Blade cantrip.

Heals: Best done after combat if possible. Makes up for the damage you didn't protect the team from - like ranged attackers.

Ally defence improvements: Sanctuary, Greater Invisibility, Protection From Evil And Good, etc., - for some encounters, like mass ranged enemies, it is just easier to increase ally defences. Particularly of note is the Paladin auras.

Even more personal defence: passive defences are your bread and butter - however, it really pays off to also be able to throw up a Shield spell or an Absorb Elements when a very big hit is incoming.

So my suggestion would be a martial class with useful magic available to them, via multiclassing;

Paladin/Sorcerer: Paladin chassis gives you access to heavy armour, shields, decent HP, and the coveted auras. However, Paladin spells by and large only shore up your personal defences or aid you in dealing damage in some way. Some help shore up other party members defences. Lastly, Paladin levels count towards Spell Slot progression when multiclassing, albeit, at half rate.

Stopping enemies getting to party members, on the other hand, needs some help; enter Sorcerer - many of the above list can be found here, barring wall spells. In particular, the Divine Soul subclass for Sorcerer gives you access to Cleric spells as well, like the amazing Spirit Guardians. Lastly, pick up the Booming Blade cantrip alongside the Warcaster feat and watch enemies now actually feel deterred by that OA.

There are other options, however, they tend to be much more limited in my experience at fulfilling the protector role (like Eldritch Knight who only can increase defences or deal damage) or require considerably more complex resource management to function (like Bladesinger).

I would stick away from Barbarian, Fighter, and Moon Druid for the protector role; they can all be tough to take down, but in my experience they don't really do anything of much impact to protect the party outside of dumb brute encounters - see Unoriginal's post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25164457&postcount=50) below for some examples that are very conditional, very limited in resources, often single target, and then just don't have the result you would want from all this lining up. The toughness with these classes/subclasses is more about providing staying power while in melee in order to effectively deal damage - esentially, ranged options don't need this toughness because they are not in melee (hopefully).

Hope that helps!

LudicSavant

2021-08-17, 08:57 AM

My 2cp: Against big individual foes, you usually should not be Dodging instead of Stunning as a Monk.

"that shield that holds the line for my mates" is a concept that doesn't work that well in 5e. The only real option to constrain opponents movement is the terrain where you choose to fight. Strongly disagree. There are lots of effective lockdown tools in 5e, both for single targets and groups.

-The sentinel feat can be used to stop one creature that tries to move past you, if you hit. Each turn you only have one reaction which would allow for one opportunity attack
Sentinel is for single targets. You can use other tools for groups, like, say, Spirit Guardians or Aura of Conquest.

You also can combine multiple forms of single target control on separate targets -- a reaction is only part of your action economy, after all, and you can use the rest of your actions on lockdown, too.

Unoriginal

2021-08-17, 10:49 AM

There is not an (mundane) 'aggro' mechanic in 5e

This is incorrect:

Unwavering Mark
Starting at 3rd level, you can menace your foes, foiling their attacks and punishing them for harming others. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can mark the creature until the end of your next turn. This effect ends early if you are incapacitated or you die, or if someone else marks the creature.

While it is within 5 feet of you, a creature marked by you has disadvantage on any attack roll that doesn't target you.

In addition, if a creature marked by you deals damage to anyone other than you, you can make a special melee weapon attack against the marked creature as a bonus action on your next turn. You have advantage on the attack roll, and if it hits, the attack's weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to half your fighter level.

Regardless of the number of creatures you mark, you can make this special attack a number of times equal to your Strength modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Ancestral Protectors
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you're raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.

I would stick away from Barbarian, Fighter, and Moon Druid for the protector role; they can all be tough to take down, but they don't really do anything to protect the party outside of dumb brute encounters

This is also incorrect:

Interception
When a creature you can see hits a target, other than you, within 5 feet of you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage the target takes by 1d10 + your proficiency bonus (to a minimum of 0 damage). You must be wielding a shield or a simple or martial weapon to use this reaction.

Protection
When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You must be wielding a shield.

Bait and Switch
When you're within 5 feet of a creature on your turn, you can expend one superiority die and switch places with that creature, provided you spend at least 5 feet of movement and the creature is willing and isn't incapacitated. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.

Roll the superiority die. Until the start of your next turn, you or the other creature (your choice) gains a bonus to AC equal to the number rolled.

Warding Maneuver
At 7th level, you learn to fend off strikes directed at you, your mount, or other creatures nearby. If you or a creature you can see within 5 feet of you is hit by an attack, you can roll 1d8 as a reaction if you're wielding a melee weapon or a shield. Roll the die, and add the number rolled to the target's AC against that attack. If the attack still hits, the target has resistance against the attack's damage.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Hold the Line
At 10th level, you become a master of locking down your enemies. Creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they move 5 feet or more while within your reach, and if you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the target's speed is reduced to 0 until the end of the current turn.

Protective Field
When you or another creature you can see within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to expend one Psionic Energy die, roll the die, and reduce the damage taken by the number rolled plus your Intelligence modifier (minimum reduction of 1), as you create a momentary shield of telekinetic force.

Telekinetic Movement
You can move an object or a creature with your mind. As an action, you target one loose object that is Large or smaller or one willing creature, other than yourself. If you can see the target and it is within 30 feet of you, you can move it up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see.

And those are just the ones I recalled.

quindraco

2021-08-17, 11:05 AM

Moon druid wild shapes do scale poorly. So poorly that you're not really impressing anybody with your damage output by level 5 or 6. By level 9 you're either just a regular druid with an emergency hit point button or you're still trying to be the shapechanging character, but your offensive output has fallen through the floor because their forms hardly scale at all and have a terrible time with the increasingly common damage resistance you start to see as you level. Elemental forms at level 10 help, but most campaigns are ending around then so while they are a cool effective capstone, you probably won't get too much use out of them.

At level 6 Moon Druids deal magical damage with their attacks in beast form, so I'm confused where you're finding common damage resistances unless the Druid is leaning too hard into Poison damage (which is worse than leaning too hard into Fire damage, but both are commonly resisted). In my experience that only really comes into play at level 9, with the Giant Scorpion.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-17, 11:11 AM

It will depend on your DM, but it doesn't hurt to pick up Intimidate proficiency. If you announce that you wish to take an action to taunt a foe and draw their attention to you, in my experience, few DM's say no.

I don't even require the action for my own players. Talk smack to the dragon, you're going to be the focus of their ire. This one can go into psychology. While I don't always advocate for psychological warfare when dealing with your DM, remember that they are a human or at least wearing a very convincing suit and trying not to draw attention to themselves. You can learn how they target and why, and use this information to redirect peril towards yourself. One of my players learned the hard way that making yourself nigh untouchable means my foes will ignore you and take your AoO's in trade for tearing apart the squishies behind you. There is such a thing as too much defense, at least if you want to tank.

Keravath

2021-08-17, 11:56 AM

My 2cp: Against big individual foes, you usually should not be Dodging instead of Stunning as a Monk.

Strongly disagree. There are lots of effective lockdown tools in 5e, both for single targets and groups.

Sentinel is for single targets. You can use other tools for groups, like, say, Spirit Guardians or Aura of Conquest.

You also can combine multiple forms of single target control on separate targets -- a reaction is only part of your action economy, after all, and you can use the rest of your actions on lockdown, too.

I still think there are actually very few true lockdown tools in 5e and most either target only a single creature or require combinations of effects (aura of conquest + a source of fear that the target subsequently fails) to enforce their effect. Aura of Conquest only comes online at level 7 and only for one specific sub class.

Take spirit guardians as an example, it is an amazing spell .. perhaps one of the best in the game. Damage every round + difficult terrain as long as the character can maintain concentration while within 15' of the targets. However, it doesn't "lock" anything down, it inhibits movement like entangle or any number of other spells which make it harder for creatures to bypass folks standing at the front but it does not "lock them down".

Determined attackers can run right past a paladin with aura of conquest, or a character with spirit guardians up, or an ancestral guardian barbarian.

"Tank" usually implies an ability to attract "aggro" meaning that creatures preferentially attack the "tank". That specific mechanic is not enforced or even possible within the 5e rule set. Even the spell "compelled duel" can't make the target attack ONLY you ... at best it imposes disadvantage if it decides to attack something else and it has to make a save if it tries to move more than 30' away from you.

There are a number of ways to partially or totally constrain movement of opponents, most of which cost a reaction, a spell slot or might be effective against only one target in a turn. There are several abilities that make a creature prefer to attack a specific target since they may otherwise suffer disadvantage. However, most of these are also a single target and in none of these cases are the creatures forced to only attack the specific character - they can still either choose to bypass them or attack someone else in range.

As a result, in my opinion, the "tank" role doesn't really exist in 5e ... there are melee characters, ranged characters and spellcasters. Ranged and spellcasters typically try to stay away from opponents while melee characters close in. Melee will also usually use whatever abilities they have to make them more attractive targets for opponents to keep them away from their ranged and spellcasting team mates. However, unless the terrain is favorable and the melee can physically block the attackers from running past them - they can typically only slow down rather than stop the attackers if they are determined to reach the back line. There is nothing the characters can do to prevent being bypassed except on a singular basis (sentinel if they have the feat and a reaction) or aura of courage combined with a successful casting of fear or something similar that reduces the opponents movement to zero - and it still doesn't force the creature to attack the "tank" ... it just makes it harder for the creature to attack anything else.

stoutstien

2021-08-17, 12:19 PM

I still think there are actually very few true lockdown tools in 5e and most either target only a single creature or require combinations of effects (aura of conquest + a source of fear that the target subsequently fails) to enforce their effect. Aura of Conquest only comes online at level 7 and only for one specific sub class.

Take spirit guardians as an example, it is an amazing spell .. perhaps one of the best in the game. Damage every round + difficult terrain as long as the character can maintain concentration while within 15' of the targets. However, it doesn't "lock" anything down, it inhibits movement like entangle or any number of other spells which make it harder for creatures to bypass folks standing at the front but it does not "lock them down".

Determined attackers can run right past a paladin with aura of conquest, or a character with spirit guardians up, or an ancestral guardian barbarian.

"Tank" usually implies an ability to attract "aggro" meaning that creatures preferentially attack the "tank". That specific mechanic is not enforced or even possible within the 5e rule set. Even the spell "compelled duel" can't make the target attack ONLY you ... at best it imposes disadvantage if it decides to attack something else and it has to make a save if it tries to move more than 30' away from you.

There are a number of ways to partially or totally constrain movement of opponents, most of which cost a reaction, a spell slot or might be effective against only one target in a turn. There are several abilities that make a creature prefer to attack a specific target since they may otherwise suffer disadvantage. However, most of these are also a single target and in none of these cases are the creatures forced to only attack the specific character - they can still either choose to bypass them or attack someone else in range.

As a result, in my opinion, the "tank" role doesn't really exist in 5e ... there are melee characters, ranged characters and spellcasters. Ranged and spellcasters typically try to stay away from opponents while melee characters close in. Melee will also usually use whatever abilities they have to make them more attractive targets for opponents to keep them away from their ranged and spellcasting team mates. However, unless the terrain is favorable and the melee can physically block the attackers from running past them - they can typically only slow down rather than stop the attackers if they are determined to reach the back line. There is nothing the characters can do to prevent being bypassed except on a singular basis (sentinel if they have the feat and a reaction) or aura of courage combined with a successful casting of fear or something similar that reduces the opponents movement to zero - and it still doesn't force the creature to attack the "tank" ... it just makes it harder for the creature to attack anything else.

Tanks exist in 5e just not in the binary nature people are accustomed with from other media. 5e tanking is more about identifying the most effective mitigation techniques and using them which could range from flat out action denial to redirecting damage to a different target. Usually they fall in the middle where limiting the enemies options which gives your party the edge.

Aimeryan

2021-08-17, 12:25 PM

This is incorrect:

I should have explained the 'mundane' part - perhaps 'passive' would have been more appropriate. Regardless, I did later talk about compelling enemies to attack you using resources. I would also suggest the examples you listed are not so much 'aggro' as much as applying penalties that occur if you are not the target (and then for very limited number of targets). Perhaps 'hard' vs 'soft' aggro? I'll change my original post to reflect this, thanks.

The protective effects you listed (albeit, unfamiliar with the psionic ones) I don't rate highly as effective due to too many conditions (5ft of you, reaction, very limited resource) and too little result (varies). I see these effects as cherries, not the cake. Thanks for listing them, though; the OP is certain to appreciate the info - I'll add a comment into my original post!

Man_Over_Game

2021-08-17, 01:20 PM

Thank you all for the advice and the suggestions! There is a lot more than I was expecting. Glad to know the community is there to help and the game isn't stagnant. Looks like some variant of Paladin is the way for me, as a beginner. But I will look at all suggestions that have been passed to me.

Thanks again all! If more thoughts come to pass, please feel free!

I would honestly recommend a Barbarian for a new player. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Bear Totem Barbarian Gnome with the Sentinel Feat is pretty much everything you'd need in a tight package.

You'll have Advantage against every Saving Throw that you aren't good at, and have the stats to deal with the rest. Durable in every way, yet is a constant nuisance that the enemy will need to focus to deal with. Incredibly simple to build, all you need to do is pick a weapon.

It's probably the best "Noobie Tank" build someone could make, since it's incredibly optimized without any additional complexity.

LudicSavant

2021-08-17, 08:29 PM

"Tank" usually implies an ability to attract "aggro" meaning that creatures preferentially attack the "tank".

It actually usually doesn't imply that in human vs human games, which is exactly what D&D is. You're thinking World of Warcraft PvE, when you should be thinking in terms of human vs human games with tanking roles like Atlas Reactor, Overwatch, League of Legends, Guild Wars PvP, that sort of thing. These tanks have an entirely different vocabulary with concepts like "peels" "punishes" "pressure" "control" "lockdown" "option selects" "controlling space" etc.

It works just as well to make people preferentially attack them, it just doesn't work by mind-controlling them and "forcing" them to choose to attack you.

If you're looking for WoW PvE aggro-taunts, you're not going to find those. But that's because D&D isn't basing its tanking abilities off of those games, it's basing them off of human vs human games and the tanking models that go with them.

Aura of Conquest only comes online at level 7 and only for one specific sub class.

Yes, and it's just one out of many tanking abilities. It's not even the only one on that class.

Before level 7, they already have other effective tanking tools. For example at level 3 they get a quite effective channel divinity that applies fear in an AoE (which applies Disadvantage to hit and prevents movement closer to the object of their fear). And at level 1-2, their OA is still a sufficiently meaty punishment for movement on its own. Plus there are multiple spells that are lockdown-capable.

For other tank-capable subclasses, they have their own, different lockdown tools.

solidork

2021-08-18, 03:07 PM

I've been having a lot of fun with my Armorer Artificer. I decided not to dump strength and use Armor of Magical Strength so that I'm still capable of grappling and shoving and have created some really interesting tactical situations by combining grappling and AOE effects like Web and Grease, as well as grappling heavy hitters away from the party and casting Sanctuary on myself.

I actually stopped using a shield so that I can grapple and still lay down punches - also, enemies were evaluating me as too tough of a target to attack and going after my allies. That is one aspect of playing a tank that is hard to prepare for mechanically.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-08-18, 07:26 PM

Its tanky for a monk but really only comes online fully at higher levels when you have more Ki to burn (a generic sentiment I share for all monks really in fairness).

Touch of Death: (LD Monk)
When you reduce a creature within 5 feet of you to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier + your monk level (minimum of 1 temporary hit point).

VS

DARK ONE'S BLESSING (Fiend Warlock)
Starting a t 1 s t level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your warlock level (minimum of 1)

A Long Death Monk can knock a friendly down to zero, and get THP.
A well coordinated party will 'feed' the monk.

Now that the game has Artillerists and Twilight Clerics, there are a myriad of ways to receive substantial amounts of Temporary Hit Points. Prior to the introduction of Artillerists, Long Death Monks were a subclass with a a sizable amount of THP, and a LD Monk only needed to kill a friendly fly to do so.

The Party Familiar was used to 'feed' the monk, on several occasions.

Person_Man

2021-08-21, 03:33 PM

What are your ability scores?

If your DM is using the point buy option, then a lot of classes with Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD) are not as effective. This includes the the Monk, Paladin, and basically any other build that needs two high (Str or Dex for to-hit and AC, Int or Wis or Cha for class abilities) plus a good Con. If that is the case, I suggest Druid or Cleric. Either just needs a high Wis. Everything else can be mediocre. Dump Int and Cha. Plenty of spells that heal and buff defense and provide battlefield control. Wildshape in particular makes you ridiculously hard to kill and mobile. Artificer (Int based) is also a good mostly Single Ability Dependency (SAD) option if you want to play a more literal tank, as your Infusions can give you +4 AC all day on top of heavy armor and a shield, and you get blasty spells/cantrips.

If you can roll for abilities and roll high, then as many others have said, Paladin is a great choice. Good AC, sky high saves, built in healing and burst damage. The only down side is that non-full casters get fewer resources at high levels, and even then its not that big of a deal in many parties.

I’d also suggest a race like Warforged (and I think there might be one or two more?) that gets a +1 to AC. It doesn’t seem like much, but when stacked on top of heavy armor, a shield, Fighting Style, Infusions, or whatever, it can make some combats a lot easier.