Eldritch Knight school switch

[Sandeman]

Im going to play an Eldritch Knight (starting at lvl 3) in our first post-pandemic campaign, that will hopefully start rather soon.
I am going to ask the GM to allow me to switch out the School of Evocation and instead take the School of Illusion (but keep Abjuration).
What do you think?
Is it a reasonable and balanced request?

[heavyfuel]

It's reasonable in the sense that Evocation is straight up garbage for an EK and has no business being one of the "core" schools.

Blasting spells - the majority of wizard Evocation spells - need to be of the appropriate level, otherwise their damage just isn't worth the action/resource cost. For instance, when was the last time you saw a level 5 Wizard casting Burning Hands? You don't see it often (if ever) because 3d6 damage just isn't worth the cost over, say, a Cantrip plus the Shield spell. Similarly, being able to cast Fireball for 8d6 damage at level 13 as an EK isn't very good either.

Evocation is only good for EKs because of the SCAG-cantrips, and these are only worthwhile on levels 3-4 and 7-10. Outside of these levels, the Attack action is superior.

However, Illusion is one of the strongest schools for an EK because there's a lot of value in low-level illusion spells. Silent Image, Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image, and Phantom Steed are all great spells regardless of your level, so even with delayed progression, they offer a lot.

Personally, I'd allow it with some restrictions. Maybe not letting you pick free-school spells anymore.

[Sandeman]

Good points.

[Tanarii]

Nope. Abjuration for illusion would be an okay switch, because it's defense for defense. Evocation should be swapped out for an offensive school. Conjuration would probably be okay.

Just take into account if you swap out evocation you're giving up the EK's strength over other fighters: Ranged and AoE magical attacks. That'd be another reason Conjuration is a good switch. It has some decent ranged magical attacks, and several of its AoEs are about control.

[OldTrees1]

Nope. Abjuration for illusion would be an okay switch, because it's defense for defense. Evocation should be swapped out for an offensive school. Conjuration would probably be okay.

Just take into account if you swap out evocation you're giving up the EK's strength over other fighters: Ranged and AoE magical attacks. That'd be another reason Conjuration is a good switch. It has some decent ranged magical attacks, and several of its AoEs are about control.

Why "no" to swapping out an offensive school for a defensive school? It would adjust the focus of the subclass to be more defensive. Is that a problem?

Also in the case of illusion is a bit more of utility(1st level illusions) -> defense(2nd level buffs) -> offense(3rd level AoEs).

[Kane0]

Sounds reasonable to me. Hell could even drop the restricted schools entirely and i wouldnt really bat an eye.

[DwarfFighter]

In my opinion, Eldritch Knight is supposed to be a Fighter with spells, not a Wizard with armor. The lack of versatility is kinda the point. You can discuss with your DM of course, but I'd nix it.

[J-H]

Absolutely. Evocation is pretty bad for EK given the limited number of spell slots and levels.

Illusion is good for Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, etc. as well as non-combat uses.

Have you also considered Transmutation? Alter Self gives you a swim speed and water breathing, or a solid disguise option. Haste is the big standout. Other options include Spider Climb, Blink, and Polymorph.
It's sort of a short list but has some very solid options on it.

[Mastikator]

I agree with Kane0. The small number of spells known and spell slots is enough of a limitation.

[RogueJK]

Don't forget Shadow Blade, which is an Illusion spell. It's fantastic on a non-GWM EK, especially a DEX-based one.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's certainly better, since no optimized EK was likely to pick any evocation spells until they got to fireball. And that was probably going to be it.

So making your class options actually viable doesn't sound like the sort of thing I'd argue against. Heck, go ahead and just pick your two favorite schools. Same for the Arcane Trickster.

[Tanarii]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's certainly better, since no optimized EK was likely to pick any evocation spells until they got to fireball. And that was probably going to be it.
Any "optimized" EK that skips level 1 or 2 Evocation spells (or dumps Int) is throwing away half their subclass. Thunderwave is fantastic, Shatter gives a nice AoE option when it's needed that doesn't require a precious 3rd level slot, and Gust of Wind is gold.

Also at least one cantrip should be a ranged pick, even if SCAG cantrips are available.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I've let EKs and ATs switch around their "core" schools before and never had a problem with it. As others have said, the limited number of spells known and spell slots (and generally slow progression) are enough of a limiting factor.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Any "optimized" EK that skips level 1 or 2 Evocation spells (or dumps Int) is throwing away half their subclass. Thunderwave is fantastic, Shatter gives a nice AoE option when it's needed that doesn't require a precious 3rd level slot, and Gust of Wind is gold.

Also at least one cantrip should be a ranged pick, even if SCAG cantrips are available.

The cantrips aren't school locked. If they were, yes, evocation cantrips are the most generally useful for EK's. But I'm not talking about those here.

The AoE evocation spells are... okay. And that's the problem. The abjuration spells can make an EK absurdly durable, while the evocation spells mostly just make them not quite as slow at carving through hordes. There's clutch uses of Shatter and Gust of Wind, sure, but these situations will always be situational, especially compared to how (ab)usable their abjuration counterparts are in almost every type of fight.

It also doesn't help that every sorcerer, warlock, wizard, and certain clerics, bards, and druids will severely outclass you at blasting no matter what. They've also all got more incentive to max their casting stats earlier because even if you did so as an EK, you just wouldn't be as effective with it. The wizard has had Shatter for four levels by the time you get it, and can cast it five more times than you, four of which would be upscaled beyond you. And they probably won't bother because Shatter stopped being relevant outside of special circumstances two levels ago.

This is my theory for why I only ever see any given EK Burning Hands one time before quietly never using evocation again.

[Tanarii]

A Fighters weakness is ranged attacks and hordes. That's where Shatter comes in, it's for multiple enemies at range, and that's nowhere near uncommon IMX. Although I agree cantrips aren't school locked and also usually cover single target ranged attacks sufficiently.

But Thunderwave is a tanking spell, like Gust of Wind. Both of which enhance the "primary" function of Fighters, which simultaneously shoring up a weakness against hordes.

[Waterdeep Merch]

A Fighters weakness is ranged attacks and hordes. That's where Shatter comes in, it's for multiple enemies at range, and that's nowhere near uncommon IMX. Although I agree cantrips aren't school locked and also usually cover single target ranged attacks sufficiently.

But Thunderwave is a tanking spell, like Gust of Wind. Both of which enhance the "primary" function of Fighters, which simultaneously shoring up a weakness against hordes.

They aren't worthless, to be sure. Perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit when I say "no optimized EK would pick any evocation spells before Fireball". It's just that I rarely see them in action due to the aforementioned issues and party redundancy, while I see those players salivate over their school-unlocked choices so that they can pick spells that support a fighter's primary functionality better instead, or just offer utility that's helpful regardless of who gets it or when (Find Familiar, for what's usually the first example).

A recent EK I'm in a party with even skipped getting any level 2 spells at all outside of their unlocked ones to instead grab more 1st level abjurations. Which is itself partly a casualty of the weird lack of decent abjuration spells at 2nd level.

[Spiritchaser]

In principle I like the idea of letting an EK swap schools, the only thing I’d watch is durability if you have another “tough” character in the party. EKs are already some of the tougher things out there and an ill/abj EK, especially a Dex one, might make a bear-totem or some such feel a bit underwhelming.

If they aren’t directly competing with anything like it, I’d say have at it. You won’t break out of the fighter box in terms of overall power by enough to break anything.

[Man_Over_Game]

Absolutely. Evocation is pretty bad for EK given the limited number of spell slots and levels.

Illusion is good for Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, etc. as well as non-combat uses.

Have you also considered Transmutation? Alter Self gives you a swim speed and water breathing, or a solid disguise option. Haste is the big standout. Other options include Spider Climb, Blink, and Polymorph.
It's sort of a short list but has some very solid options on it.

Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Longstrider, Dragon's Breath + Action Surge, Enlarge/Reduce + grappling, Earthbind, Magic Weapon.

Like, the list for Transmutation spells that go well on a Fighter are endless.

Same goes for Conjuration. C. has a lot of persistent area spells that synergize directly with the Fighter's tankiness and ability to keep enemies in the fire, and their Action Surge means they can do more than cast a spell in the first turn. Not to mention Misty Step.

Imagine summoning a Dust Devil to disorient a melee enemy, running up and hitting them while they're blinded, and then positioning yourself so that the Dust Devil gives you cover from their archers.



It's always been my belief that Eldritch Knights would be a lot more interesting with Conjuration and Transmutation.

Abjuration sounds good and all, but it really is only a single spell (Shield) and it's not an interesting one at that, just generically effective on a Fighter. Picking that up with a free spell choice makes a lot more sense.

Illusion makes much less sense on an Eldritch Knight. We're talking about someone who uses magic for war, let the Arcane Trickster and other skill monkeys use the school that works best by running away.

[Joe the Rat]

I've done this with my Shattered Seas game - EKs and ATs have free pick, save that one of the two schools has to be Abjuration/Evocation or Enchantment/Illusion, respectively. I need to go back and check the EK (he's mostly just used abjuration) , but the AT is Illusion/Divination. He's a nosy trickster.

It's added a little flexibility to their builds, giving you a finer tuned flavor of magic swordy guy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've done this with my Shattered Seas game - EKs and ATs have free pick, save that one of the two schools has to be Abjuration/Evocation or Enchantment/Illusion, respectively. I need to go back and check the EK (he's mostly just used abjuration) , but the AT is Illusion/Divination. He's a nosy trickster.

It's added a little flexibility to their builds, giving you a finer tuned flavor of magic swordy guy.

Now this is a solution that I like. Keep the intended flavour, while still giving them a major option for customization.

[Man_Over_Game]

Now this is a solution that I like. Keep the intended flavour, while still giving them a major option for customization.

This does seem to imply that there's an intended "flavor" for the Eldritch Knight.

But it seems like the intended schools are kinda...garbage for even the theme of Eldritch Knights.

"Abjuration" as a school of magic doesn't really kick off until you get into mid-tier wards and ritual stuff. Before that, it's 1-2 different shield spells and nothing else.

Evocation is good at blasting, but doesn't actually do anything for Eldritch Knights. Shooting lasers and fireballs gets in the way of swinging your weapon and being a melee combatant, not to mention the added dependency on having a high intelligence for those spells to work in the first place. Magic Missile is about as good as it gets.

As a result, Eldritch Knights are basically played as "A Fighter with level 1 spell slots". That's it. The spells they get over the next 5 levels after getting their subclass just don't play much of a factor in how they play, and anything past that is too expensive to be realistic. So they basically play as a Fighter with Magic Initiate 2.0.

I guess my point is, what are we saving? Are we being conservative for the sake of not wanting to take too many risks, or is there something worth salvaging from the original concept?

[Tanarii]

Evocation is good at blasting, but doesn't actually do anything for Eldritch Knights.
Except give them a ranged and AoE option they didn't have, or only had poorly (javelins) before. Plus control via Thunderwave, Gust of Wind, and Darkness.

[Man_Over_Game]

Except give them a ranged and AoE option they didn't have, or only had poorly (javelins) before. Plus control via Thunderwave, Gust of Wind, and Darkness.

You're right, but anything is more than what Fighters had. It's a really low bar to hit if all it has to do is "Add spells". Almost any other school can do those things better than Evocation can for a Fighter. Even Fog Cloud is a level 1 spell slot instead of level 2, which is actually a really big deal when we're talking about 1/3 casters.

[heavyfuel]

Except give them a ranged and AoE option they didn't have, or only had poorly (javelins) before. Plus control via Thunderwave, Gust of Wind, and Darkness.

A crappy AoE option (3d8 damage at level 7) is probably worse than none as at least "no option" doesn't tempt players to completely waste their action/resources.

[RogueJK]

As a result, Eldritch Knights are basically played as "A Fighter with level 1 spell slots". That's it. The spells they get over the next 5 levels after getting their subclass just don't play much of a factor in how they play, and anything past that is too expensive to be realistic. So they basically play as a Fighter with Magic Initiate 2.0.

There are Level 2 spells gained at EK 7/8 that can make a difference for an EK. For example, a DEX-based sword-and-board EK leveraging Shadow Blade (especially alongside Elven Accuracy while in dim light). Or an EK with Blind Fighting style and the Darkness spell.


I've done this with my Shattered Seas game - EKs and ATs have free pick, save that one of the two schools has to be Abjuration/Evocation or Enchantment/Illusion, respectively.

I dig it.

[Greywander]

Just take into account if you swap out evocation you're giving up the EK's strength over other fighters: Ranged and AoE magical attacks.

Also at least one cantrip should be a ranged pick, even if SCAG cantrips are available.

A Fighters weakness is ranged attacks and hordes.

Except give them a ranged and AoE option they didn't have, or only had poorly (javelins) before.
May I introduce you to a brand new invention: the DEX fighter!

I legit didn't notice that all these quotes were Tanarii, I thought there was more than one person expressing this opinion. And I'll grant you that fighters don't do as well against hordes, but DEX fighters are one of the better archer options, so ranged attacks aren't really an issue. It's true that there's value in being able to sling a cantrip without putting down your sword'n'board, but it's not as if non-EK fighters didn't have any ranged options beyond javelins.

Thunderclap is also a good AoE option that's spammable, so long as you're hitting 3+ enemies with it. A lot of people shy away from the CON save, but enemies that swarm tend to have higher DEX than CON. The fighter also gets more attacks than other martials, so they're a bit better adapted to fighting hordes than, say, a paladin. Obviously Fireball is the optimal AoE solution, but you have to wait a while to get it, and don't have a lot of spell slots for casting it.

[Witty Username]

Illusion makes much less sense on an Eldritch Knight. We're talking about someone who uses magic for war, let the Arcane Trickster and other skill monkeys use the school that works best by running away.

The Art of War is the Art of Deception. To paraphrase Sun Tsu.

[SLOTHRPG95]

A crappy AoE option (3d8 damage at level 7) is probably worse than none as at least "no option" doesn't tempt players to completely waste their action/resources.

If mooks group up either due to starting position or mook swarm, you can end up catching quite a few in the radius of Shatter. Anecdotal, but I've found at my tables that having yet another source of first-turn AoE is never a bad thing. Best-case scenario you soften targets up enough to be taken down by the big guns. Worst-case you're the only one who beat them in initiative and it's either you blast or you attack twice, but either way they're getting out of fireball formation before the (actual) fireball. And if you're really willing to commit the resources (but save on turns), then Shatter + Action Surge Shatter at 7th is still respectable AoE damage.


May I introduce you to a brand new invention: the DEX fighter!

I legit didn't notice that all these quotes were Tanarii, I thought there was more than one person expressing this opinion. And I'll grant you that fighters don't do as well against hordes, but DEX fighters are one of the better archer options, so ranged attacks aren't really an issue. It's true that there's value in being able to sling a cantrip without putting down your sword'n'board, but it's not as if non-EK fighters didn't have any ranged options beyond javelins.

Thunderclap is also a good AoE option that's spammable, so long as you're hitting 3+ enemies with it. A lot of people shy away from the CON save, but enemies that swarm tend to have higher DEX than CON. The fighter also gets more attacks than other martials, so they're a bit better adapted to fighting hordes than, say, a paladin. Obviously Fireball is the optimal AoE solution, but you have to wait a while to get it, and don't have a lot of spell slots for casting it.

True, but on the flip side: a bit of INT investment on the EK allows them to not rely on DEX, while still having passable ranged damage. This could be preferable due to a player's fantasy for their fighter being a big warrior with a big sword, or on the mechanical side it could help with an off-focus on grappling/shoving, both of which benefit from Enlarge/Reduce.


The primary function of Fighters is fighting, and they're quite good at it - Thunderwave is a good way for any competent Fighter to completely waste their action, including against hordes.

Here are the best EK spells within school limitations, but most of the really good choices are outside of the school limitations:

L1: Absorb Elements, Shield
L2: Warding Wind (Special Mention: If you take the Blind Fighting style, Darkness)
L3: Intellect Fortress, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Protection from Energy
L4: Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stoneskin

Did you notice how all but one or two of those spells was Abjuration? Evocation just isn't designed well for the EK ability set. I really don't know what WOTC was thinking; Conjuration and Transmutation would both fit the EK theme much better, since those are the two schools most appropriate for the apparently core EK ability of having weapons which can't be disarmed (Transmutation) and can be teleported to hand (Conjuration).

Thunderwave can allow the Fighter to push back multiple foes at the same time, something that (a) is definitely within their primary function (positioning is an important aspect of fighting), and (b) is not normally within their capabilities. As for the list, different tastes I guess but I'd include Counterspell for L3. You can never have too many party members with Counterspell IME and by 13th/14th level the EK has enough ASIs to bump both STR/DEX and INT to max if they want so it's not like they're even bad at it (if they so choose).

[Sandeman]

{Scrubbed} Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are at their best when they can cast spells that ignore their INT.

Evocation just isn't designed well for the EK ability set. I really don't know what WOTC was thinking.

Very much in line with how I view the 1/3rd casters.
And as someone suggested higher up, letting EK/AT switch one school is a big step in the right direction IMO.

[heavyfuel]

If mooks group up either due to starting position or mook swarm, you can end up catching quite a few in the radius of Shatter. Anecdotal, but I've found at my tables that having yet another source of first-turn AoE is never a bad thing. Best-case scenario you soften targets up enough to be taken down by the big guns. Worst-case you're the only one who beat them in initiative and it's either you blast or you attack twice, but either way they're getting out of fireball formation before the (actual) fireball. And if you're really willing to commit the resources (but save on turns), then Shatter + Action Surge Shatter at 7th is still respectable AoE damage.

Whenever someone criticizes something for being sub-par, people jump in with unlikely scenarios to point out how said thing is totally not sub-par. It's kinda like a reverse version of the Schrodinger Wizard (which I grant is another argument I hate).

I mean, you're absolutely correct in you assessment of how Shatter can be useful, but how often does that come up in game?

For an EK to use Shatter and not suck, here's a list of things that need to happen:

- At least 3 enemies in a 10ft square;
- You win Initiative against all three enemies;
- The Wizard/Druid/Sorcerer loses initiative against at least 2 enemies;
- You are willing to burn all your 2nd level slots for the day;
- You are willing to burn you Action Surge.

If all of these things happen, Shatter is borderline useful. How often do you find yourself in this situation? I bet it's not at all often. Definitely not often enough to justify Shatter being an EK's single 2nd level spell known.

It's like saying the Champion doesn't suck if you only roll 19s.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Whenever someone criticizes something for being sub-par, people jump in with unlikely scenarios to point out how said thing is totally not sub-par. It's kinda like a reverse version of the Schrodinger Wizard (which I grant is another argument I hate).

I mean, you're absolutely correct in you assessment of how Shatter can be useful, but how often does that come up in game?

For an EK to use Shatter and not suck, here's a list of things that need to happen:

- At least 3 enemies in a 10ft square;
- You win Initiative against all three enemies;
- The Wizard/Druid/Sorcerer loses initiative against at least 2 enemies;
- You are willing to burn all your 2nd level slots for the day;
- You are willing to burn you Action Surge.

If all of these things happen, Shatter is borderline useful. How often do you find yourself in this situation? I bet it's not at all often. Definitely not often enough to justify Shatter being an EK's single 2nd level spell known.

It's like saying the Champion doesn't suck if you only roll 19s.

Not saying that the EK's blasting is top-tier1, but just that it adds useful breadth onto the Fighter chassis. But as to how often Shatter comes up as a useful pick for a T2 EK, I am going to have to say "often enough." Going point-by-point:

- At least 3 enemies in a 10ft square is not quite right, since Shatter has a 10 ft. radius, meaning there should be plenty of situations throughout a long adventuring day where you can group 3+ targets (assuming your DM doesn't always use just solos or duos);
- You win Initiative against all three enemies is helpful to find the aforementioned positioning, but not strictly necessary;
- The Wizard/Druid/Sorcerer loses initiative against at least 2 enemies assuming that you have another blaster, which to be fair I did in my previous post, then I'd like to note once more that doubling down on AoE damage works just fine. If your W/D/S/Light Cleric/whatever lobs a Fireball at a group of bugbears before you can cast Shatter, you can still do so to quickly mop up any survivors;
- You are willing to burn all your 2nd level slots for the day is true in the case of Shatter + AS Shatter, but so is you are willing to burn all your 4th level slots for the day for a 7th level full caster and literally any of their 4th level spells. Pulling out the big guns costs resources, and of course you're not going to do that if you aren't willing to spend said resources and/or are already running dry;
- You are willing to burn you Action Surge is basically the same as above, except for a resource that you recover on a short rest, and hence can be spent more freely.

tl; dr Shatter is useful in more than just fringe cases for an EK. I know, since I've seen it in action. Even if it were your only 2nd level spell pick2, it still wouldn't necessarily be a bad one.

[1] Just as an aside, at 3rd/4th level, an EK casting Burning Hands twice via AS pumps out more AoE than anything full casters can do at the same level. Similarly, double Fireball in mid- to late-T3 is no slouch.

[2] I assume you were referring to an EK specifically at 7th level since at 8th they get another spell known, but even then you could know two 2nd level spells if you swapped one of your lower-level ones out at 7th level. You could even do this with your non-restricted pick, giving you access to e.g. Misty Step at that level.

[Tanarii]

Not saying that the EK's blasting is top-tier1, but just that it adds useful breadth onto the Fighter chassis. But as to how often Shatter comes up as a useful pick for a T2 EK, I am going to have to say "often enough." Going point-by-point:
Personally at the actual table, I saw EKs use 1st level slots for Thunderwave more often than Shield, and 2nd level slots for Shatter or Gust of Wind or Darkness far more than Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

The idea that situations somehow have to be "contrived" for players to want to use Evocation instead of Abjuration spells doesn't match my experience as a DM.

[RogueJK]

Personally at the actual table, I saw EKs use 1st level slots for Thunderwave more often than Shield, and 2nd level slots for Shatter or Gust of Wind or Darkness far more than Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

Counterspell/Dispel Magic are 3rd level spells. The EK's lone 2nd level Abjuration spell option is Arcane Lock, which is only very situationally useful and unlikely to be picked up by most EKs. So naturally, Evocation will greatly overshadow Abjuration for 2nd level spell usage on every EK.

[Bobthewizard]

Im going to play an Eldritch Knight (starting at lvl 3) in our first post-pandemic campaign, that will hopefully start rather soon.
I am going to ask the GM to allow me to switch out the School of Evocation and instead take the School of Illusion (but keep Abjuration).
What do you think?
Is it a reasonable and balanced request?

It is definitely a boost to an Eldritch Knight. But they aren't an overpowered class and this doesn't break the game in any way. I'd certainly allow it if I were the DM. I'd probably let you ignore school restrictions altogether for an EK or AT.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Personally at the actual table, I saw EKs use 1st level slots for Thunderwave more often than Shield, and 2nd level slots for Shatter or Gust of Wind or Darkness far more than Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

The idea that situations somehow have to be "contrived" for players to want to use Evocation instead of Abjuration spells doesn't match my experience as a DM.

...I think you might be mistaking me for heavyfuel? They're the one who found Shatter to be niche at best, not me. I was arguing the opposite.

[Tanarii]

Counterspell/Dispel Magic are 3rd level spells. The EK's lone 2nd level Abjuration spell option is Arcane Lock, which is only very situationally useful and unlikely to be picked up by most EKs. So naturally, Evocation will greatly overshadow Abjuration for 2nd level spell usage on every EK.Good point.


...I think you might be mistaking me for heavyfuel? They're the one who found Shatter to be niche at best, not me. I was arguing the opposite.
I was supporting your point.

[Witty Username]

That sounds to me like there would be no balance issues with swapping out evocation then (overpowered tends to be my only personal concern, underpowered is much easier to fix in play).
I personally have pondered the idea of eliminating the school restrictions though. So I may be the wrong person to ask.
P.S.
I saw up thread a thing about illusion being a defensive school, but we got color spray, Shadow Blade, phansamal Force, Fear. All seem like good offensive spells.

[Tanarii]

I saw up thread a thing about illusion being a defensive school, but we got color spray, Shadow Blade, phansamal Force, Fear. All seem like good offensive spells.
Illusion having potential offensive spells isn't the point. The point is trading offensive options for potential defensive ones. More specifically, 2nd level Invisibility and Blur. If it was "Evocation becomes Illusion, but not Invisibility, Blur or Mirror Image" it might be a workable trade.

OTOH at the time I wasn't thinking about Evocation 2nd having Gust of Wind and Darkness. So my point there may not be as solid as I thought. :smallyuk:

[SLOTHRPG95]

I was supporting your point.

Okay, that wasn't clear.

[ff7hero]

OTOH at the time I wasn't thinking about Evocation 2nd having Gust of Wind and Darkness. So my point there may not be as solid as I thought. :smallyuk:

Evocation also has Warding Wind at 2nd as a defensive option.

[TyGuy]

Sounds reasonable to me. Hell could even drop the restricted schools entirely and i wouldnt really bat an eye.
This is my position as well.
I'm actuality trying to imagine all the ways a fighter 1/3 caster could have an option based on the druid or warlock.

[Waterdeep Merch]

This is my position as well.
I'm actuality trying to imagine all the ways a fighter 1/3 caster could have an option based on the druid or warlock.

That could be kind of fun. Let an EK (or AT) pick a type of full caster, then share that spell list/casting stat. You could get several interesting permutations and realize new concepts. I like this idea a lot.

[Teaguethebean]

This is my theory for why I only ever see any given EK Burning Hands one time before quietly never using evocation again.

This really got me, I DM'd before ever playing and when one of my friends ran a game I played an eldritch knight. She cast burning hands once and then I did some math. 10.5 on a save to mabye multiple enemies or my greatsword which was 11.33(GWF and all) and one took one of my two spell slots and the other was at will.

[Kane0]

This is my position as well.
I'm actuality trying to imagine all the ways a fighter 1/3 caster could have an option based on the druid or warlock.

Swapping the spell lists around works fine in my experience. None of the features are specifically wizard-flavored

[ff7hero]

This really got me, I DM'd before ever playing and when one of my friends ran a game I played an eldritch knight. She cast burning hands once and then I did some math. 10.5 on a save to mabye multiple enemies or my greatsword which was 11.33(GWF and all) and one took one of my two spell slots and the other was at will.

(Leveled) Spells rarely do zero damage (except when Evasion is involved). Sometimes you only need to cherry tap, and even the small risk of a miss makes Attacking less attractive than Magic Missile/Burning Hands/Thunderwave.

[Kane0]

I can confirm magic missile is a common backup attack on EKs ive seen.
Rarely used but still there.

[Lokishade]

I second whoever suggests we should get rid of the school restrictions on EK spells (and on AT, while we're at it).

My reasoning is that since 5e is riddled with power creep, boosting the PHB classes with minor quality of life improvements is not asking for much.

Also, spells aren't listed by school in any of the manuals. Getting rid of the school restriction would simplify the task of character creation.

[RogueJK]

I can confirm magic missile is a common backup attack on EKs ive seen.
Rarely used but still there.

Great for forcing Concentration saves while you try to close the distance to an enemy caster that's more than 30' away.

[Kane0]

Great for forcing Concentration saves while you try to close the distance to an enemy caster that's more than 30' away.

Kinda the reverse in my experience. Great for dropping an enemy that is injured, fleeing and trying to get some cover between themselves and the party.
When engaging it seems my parties are happy to have the warriors dodge or dash on their way in rather than burn resources for a lacklustre attack while moving to their preferred range. The exception being switch hitters and skirmishing types of course, theyre happy to stay at range until melee range is closed.

[Joe the Rat]

This is my position as well.
I'm actuality trying to imagine all the ways a fighter 1/3 caster could have an option based on the druid or warlock.


Swapping the spell lists around works fine in my experience. None of the features are specifically wizard-flavored
I've seen a few decent homebrew hacks on these lines - typically they strip out the rest of the EK for something class-related (There's a 1/3 bard archetype floating around which really played into the bard angle - crappy inspiration dice and everything). I would just limit to swapping the lists (and possibly change the casting stat). The War Magic line really helps integrate the fighter and the caster. And I'm a sucker for thorn-whip-plus-a-bonus-action-halberd.

I think one version of the blood hunter had a 1/3 warlock, complete with pact slots. I'd argue that pact slots might work better than dailies for an EK. Fighter is already uses short rest features - this could expand their castings, depending on use.
(the desire for additional pact-casting classes to blend with Warlock is completely coincidental. Really.)

[RogueJK]

I think one version of the blood hunter had a 1/3 warlock, complete with pact slots. I'd argue that pact slots might work better than dailies for an EK. Fighter is already uses short rest features - this could expand their castings, depending on use.
(the desire for additional pact-casting classes to blend with Warlock is completely coincidental. Really.)

The Profane Soul Blood Hunter does get Pact Magic... Unfortunately, it's INT-based Pact Magic, so it wouldn't blend as well with the CHA-based Warlock.

There's also the fact that there are no official guidelines on how two Pact Magic classes interact for spell slot purposes when multiclassing, since in standard 5E there's only one class with Pact Magic.

[CMCC]

A crappy AoE option (3d8 damage at level 7) is probably worse than none as at least "no option" doesn't tempt players to completely waste their action/resources.

This is called "a trap".

Those spells are not very good, and especially not good at higher levels with what is likely a lowish DC.

[RogueJK]

Even at Level 7+, Shatter has its niche uses. For one, Shatter damages objects as well as enemies. Plus, a relatively low damage low level AoE still has potential uses at higher character levels when faced with large numbers of low CR creatures.

Shatter's certainly better than other 2nd level picks like Snilloc's Snowball Swarm, or Melf's Acid Arrow, or Arganazzar's Scorcher, or Scorching Ray, or Arcane Lock. And it's a better AoE option to keep in your back pocket than an upcast Burning Hands, while being somewhat tied with upcast Thunderwave, with the added benefit of bigger AoE and longer range plus object damage, but the drawback of no push rider and no option to "downcast" in a 1st level slot if fighting a horde of really weak enemies.

Granted, it's not something you'll be using every combat, and the player has to realize that it's going to be a situationally useful backup option and not their go-to option. But it has its uses. And besides, EKs don't have many fantastic options for 2nd level spells anyway. Sure, there's potentially Darkness or Warding Wind, both of which are also niche spells that you're not going to be busting out every combat. But there just aren't any better options than Shatter to fill out your 8 total Evocation/Abjuration 1st and 2nd level spells known by Level 11. So it's not like you're "wasting" a spell known by keeping Shatter around "just in case". Besides their 2 Any School spell picks, just about every EK is going to end up going with these 6 spells known by 11th level:

Shield
Absorb Elements
Thunderwave, likely swapped for Shatter once available
Magic Missile*
Darkness*
Warding Wind*
*Subbing in Mage Armor for one of these if you're DEX-based, and maybe subbing in Protection from Good/Evil, especially if you're facing those specific types of enemies regularly

[Witty Username]

A quick thing. Do Eldritch Knight's primary schools convey warfare spells or combat doctrine?
Illusion-abjuration makes a lot of sense for a protect the asset type character while a evocation-abjuration (vanilla) makes a degree or sense for an heavy arms assault type.
Necromancy and Conjuration make a lot of sense for an overwhelming force.
Oh, Conjuration-illusion could make a lot of sense for a special forces type.

[SLOTHRPG95]

A quick thing. Do Eldritch Knight's primary schools convey warfare spells or combat doctrine?
Illusion-abjuration makes a lot of sense for a protect the asset type character while a evocation-abjuration (vanilla) makes a degree or sense for an heavy arms assault type.
Necromancy and Conjuration make a lot of sense for an overwhelming force.
Oh, Conjuration-illusion could make a lot of sense for a special forces type.

Divination-Transmutation quickly adapts based off of new information gained about one's foes and one's surroundings. Create favorable informational asymmetry, and then exploit the heck out of it.

[Witty Username]

Yeah, like a "know thy self and know thy enemy" type.
I think we would need some more low level Divinations though.

[heavyfuel]

This is called "a trap".

Those spells are not very good, and especially not good at higher levels with what is likely a lowish DC.

That's what I'm saying. I'm saying "Shatter" (or any damaging evocation) is crap on EK because they get it so late and their save DC is low.

This is the reason why I'm arguing that EKs swapping school is no big deal

[RogueJK]

Yeah, like a "know thy self and know thy enemy" type.
I think we would need some more low level Divinations though.

Yeah, Divination would be a tough sell on a 1/3 caster without Ritual Casting. All three of the 1st level Divination spells are typically cast as Rituals. (Identify, Detect Magic, and Comprehend Languages)

2nd level is little better, being spells with only niche use (See Invisibility, Locate Object, Detect Thoughts) or middling single target damage (Mind Spike's 3d8).

But if Wizard spells from Explorer's Guide to Wildemont are allowed, the Divination spells Gift of Alacrity and Fortune's Favor could potentially see regular use by a Fighter.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Yeah, Divination would be a tough sell on a 1/3 caster without Ritual Casting. All three of the 1st level Divination spells are typically cast as Rituals. (Identify, Detect Magic, and Comprehend Languages)

2nd level is little better, being spells with only niche use (See Invisibility, Locate Object, Detect Thoughts) or middling single target damage (Mind Spike's 3d8).

But if Wizard spells from Explorer's Guide to Wildemont are allowed, the Divination spells Gift of Alacrity and Fortune's Favor could potentially see regular use by a Fighter.

I mean, if for some crazy reason I didn't have any party members who knew it, I'd happily spend a spell known and spell slots to Detect Magic. Sometimes it's clutch knowing if something is a magical effect or not. But given that basically all casters get it, often as a ritual, then yeah that's not likely. OTOH, not sure how Detect Thoughts is niche, unless you're in a meatgrinder campaign. And then looking at higher levels, Clairvoyance and Arcane Eye would be solid picks if nobody else had them.

tl;dr this would work best in a magic-light party

[CMCC]

That's what I'm saying. I'm saying "Shatter" (or any damaging evocation) is crap on EK because they get it so late and their save DC is low.

This is the reason why I'm arguing that EKs swapping school is no big deal

yup - we're on the same page.