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cartejos
2021-08-15, 10:48 PM
Other than casting a spell or making an attack, what can a backline character can do to stay useful inside of combat?

Thurbane
2021-08-15, 11:40 PM
Aid another checks, but may require a reach weapon.

Having potions or other items ready to hand off to front liners so they don't have to use an action, or to apply the effect of the item to them if needed.

Readying an action to step up in case they fall (or ready an action to heal them with an item, stabilize them with a heal check etc.).

Watch the rear in case any enemies are trying to sneak up.

In low-magic/low-level parties, hold a torch or lantern so the front liners have both hands free.

Make skill checks: Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Knowledge (to identify creatures/weaknesses), Spellcraft (to identify spell effects or spells being cast) etc.

FauxKnee
2021-08-16, 05:08 AM
Aid another checks, but may require a reach weapon.

I'm particularly fond of the spinning sword, from Secrets of Sarlona. (It's essentially a bundle of metal fibers used like a many-tailed whip.) It's a one-handed reach weapon. It's exotic, but even if the nonproficiency penalty goofs up your aid another checks, you still threaten squares and can help provide flanking.

MaxiDuRaritry
2021-08-16, 05:38 AM
So long as party members aren't directly between you and enemies to provide soft cover, throwing (non-splash weapon) alchemical items you craft during downtime (to reduce costs) works well, especially at low levels, but it also works decently higher up. They tend to be ranged touch attacks, so taking the penalties for throwing into melee won't hurt too badly. Stuff like readying thunderstones and tanglefoot bags to spoil concentration checks for spellcasters and eggshell dust grenades to blind will stay relevant for awhile. Alchemist's fire and acid won't remain useful for too long, although enemies vulnerable to them (especially regenerators like trolls) will keep them relevant longer.

[edit] Keeping a bag of flour around will allow you to help vs invisible enemies, if they become a problem. Setting up a flash explosion (https://recipes.howstuffworks.com/tools-and-techniques/question150.htm) with it would be a good AoE, too, at least if you have someone willing to help by throwing a torch after or can throw it at a pre-existing source of fire.

Maat Mons
2021-08-16, 05:40 AM
Other than casting spells and making attacks? That rules out most of the things anyone does in combat, regardless of position in the formation. I guess there's still Bardic Music, reserve feats, and directing minions. Depending on how you define "do," Marshal and Dragon Shaman passively provide buffs to nearby allies.

MaxiDuRaritry
2021-08-16, 09:34 AM
So long as party members aren't directly between you and enemies to provide soft cover, throwing (non-splash weapon) alchemical items you craft during downtime (to reduce costs) works well, especially at low levels, but it also works decently higher up. They tend to be ranged touch attacks, so taking the penalties for throwing into melee won't hurt too badly. Stuff like readying thunderstones and tanglefoot bags to spoil concentration checks for spellcasters and eggshell dust grenades to blind will stay relevant for awhile. Alchemist's fire and acid won't remain useful for too long, although enemies vulnerable to them (especially regenerators like trolls) will keep them relevant longer.

[edit] Keeping a bag of flour around will allow you to help vs invisible enemies, if they become a problem. Setting up a flash explosion (https://recipes.howstuffworks.com/tools-and-techniques/question150.htm) with it would be a good AoE, too, at least if you have someone willing to help by throwing a torch after or can throw it at a pre-existing source of fire.Note that the gnome calculus (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615285-Let-s-Have-Fun-With-the-Gnome-Calculus!) (A&EG) would be fantastic with this. It's a ranged exotic sling that uses potions and alchemical items as ammo, with a 50' range increment. Note that it grants all of its magical enhancements and abilities (as well as Strength to damage) to its ammo, just like other slings.

Bonneduce
2021-08-16, 01:31 PM
Aid another checks, but may require a reach weapon.

Having potions or other items ready to hand off to front liners so they don't have to use an action, or to apply the effect of the item to them if needed.

Readying an action to step up in case they fall (or ready an action to heal them with an item, stabilize them with a heal check etc.).

Watch the rear in case any enemies are trying to sneak up.

In low-magic/low-level parties, hold a torch or lantern so the front liners have both hands free.

Make skill checks: Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Knowledge (to identify creatures/weaknesses), Spellcraft (to identify spell effects or spells being cast) etc.

Pretty much all of this, but also throw nets, then 5ft step/walk to flanking position/s. You don't even need proficiency, since it's a ranged touch attack (so the -4 penalty to non-proficiency hardly ever makes a difference)

MaxiDuRaritry
2021-08-16, 02:34 PM
If you've got a good Con score, the sand (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) blaster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?415149-Sand-Blaster-MM3) weapon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606794-3-P-PF-Soulknife-3-5-MMIII-Sand-Blaster) in the MM3 (under sand giant entry) is a decent AoE "ranged" attack, especially if you put in a bit of effort in optimizing it. Note that there are no attack rolls made with it at all, so nonproficiency literally makes no difference whatsoever (barring the occasional prereq, but whatever). If you add the right special abilities, use the right ammo, and have a feat or two to throw at it such as Far Shot (which would be useful for any ranged weapon), you could get a lot of mileage out of being a halfway decent blaster without even expending any (or at least many) spells. And hey, most casty- and thiefy-types love having Con, so that at least is certainly not a bad requirement for use, and you can gain feats from lots of places (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts), if you want them.

Quertus
2021-08-16, 04:46 PM
Here's a few I didn't see mentioned yet:

Taunt.

Intimidate.

Seduce.

Issue orders.

Keyworded versions of "issue orders" (guide mount, push animal, command undead, etc)

Say command words.

Maintain concentration.

*Pretend* to cast (maybe even get them to take AoOs to get to you).

Lukalaly
2021-08-16, 07:31 PM
Taunt.

Intimidate.

Note that intimidation requires quite a bit of investment, and taunting can range from things like Iron Guard's Glare (though with that requiring you to threaten, it's not exactly "backline" tactics) to the Goad feat (which is similar to Iron Guard's Glare, though in this case the enemy has to be threatening you, which feels explicitly not backline, but still worth mentioning).

Intimidation can be very potent if you want to make it your main thing in combat, but it does require some investment to actually get good, outside of just casting (cause) fear. I'm pretty sure there's a handbook for it somewhere.

Thurbane
2021-08-16, 08:20 PM
The Goad feat can work if the enemy has reach.

Bonneduce
2021-08-17, 01:59 PM
The Goad feat can work if the enemy has reach.

I'm fond of this cheese, but it _is_ cheese:

Use the Wanderer's Diplomacy feat(from Player's Handbook II, p. 85)'s Social Agility option to negatively affect an enemy's attitude with your Bluff skill... The trick is to fail your check, so they become more hostile to you no matter what. The feat only has Halfling OR 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive
as prerequisites as well.

If you can pull this off/this is allowed, then instead of them easily making a Will save VS the Goad feat, you aggro fairly (possibly very) well

Doctor Despair
2021-08-17, 02:23 PM
I'm fond of this cheese, but it _is_ cheese:

Use the Wanderer's Diplomacy feat(from Player's Handbook II, p. 85)'s Social Agility option to negatively affect an enemy's attitude with your Bluff skill... The trick is to fail your check, so they become more hostile to you no matter what. The feat only has Halfling OR 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive
as prerequisites as well.

If you can pull this off/this is allowed, then instead of them easily making a Will save VS the Goad feat, you aggro fairly (possibly very) well

I mean, it works as long as the enemy isn't hostile towards anyone else. It isn't a mindless rage, either, so they're not going to be suicidal in their pursuit of you.

Knight's Test of Mettle works here, but is a fairly low DC if you're just splashing it. Getting reach and tripping to annoy opponents into focusing on you can work. The spell Mindless Rage is literally everything you'd want a taunt to be, but it is mind-affecting and allows a will save, so ymmv

Lukalaly
2021-08-17, 05:49 PM
I mean, it works as long as the enemy isn't hostile towards anyone else. It isn't a mindless rage, either, so they're not going to be suicidal in their pursuit of you.

It is definitely important to note that it doesn't work if they're already hostile, yeah. So it's kinda explicitly not a combat tactic, I think. The whole appeal of hostile to fanatic diplomancy optimization (other than it being silly) is that it can end combats instantly, since enemy combatants are generally assumed to be hostile towards you.

Unless you're...trying to taunt ally npcs? Which, like, go off I guess, I'd laugh and tell you to go for it if you went for that at my table, but I have a feeling that a lot of DMs wouldn't be as much of a fan. Though hopefully they would also be the types to let you use it on enemies as a taunt even though it doesn't make much sense. If I'm being honest though, I doubt those two groups of DMs are a very large intersection. All this to say, your mileage will vary.

MaxiDuRaritry
2021-08-17, 06:10 PM
I'm fond of this cheese, but it _is_ cheese:

Use the Wanderer's Diplomacy feat(from Player's Handbook II, p. 85)'s Social Agility option to negatively affect an enemy's attitude with your Bluff skill... The trick is to fail your check, so they become more hostile to you no matter what. The feat only has Halfling OR 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive
as prerequisites as well.

If you can pull this off/this is allowed, then instead of them easily making a Will save VS the Goad feat, you aggro fairly (possibly very) well
It is definitely important to note that it doesn't work if they're already hostile, yeah. So it's kinda explicitly not a combat tactic, I think. The whole appeal of hostile to fanatic diplomancy optimization (other than it being silly) is that it can end combats instantly, since enemy combatants are generally assumed to be hostile towards you.

Unless you're...trying to taunt ally npcs? Which, like, go off I guess, I'd laugh and tell you to go for it if you went for that at my table, but I have a feeling that a lot of DMs wouldn't be as much of a fan. Though hopefully they would also be the types to let you use it on enemies as a taunt even though it doesn't make much sense. If I'm being honest though, I doubt those two groups of DMs are a very large intersection. All this to say, your mileage will vary.You're like a proto-kender without the kleptomania?

Lukalaly
2021-08-17, 07:53 PM
You're like a proto-kender without the kleptomania?

Can't say I'm very familiar with kender, but sure, why not. My cursory google search really only revealed the kleptomania and a lack of fear through a similar naivete that causes the kleptomania.

Or do you just mean that people will get mad at you, since I saw a lot of that as well, lol.

MaxiDuRaritry
2021-08-17, 08:45 PM
Can't say I'm very familiar with kender, but sure, why not. My cursory google search really only revealed the kleptomania and a lack of fear through a similar naivete that causes the kleptomania.

Or do you just mean that people will get mad at you, since I saw a lot of that as well, lol.Everyone hates them, both in and out of universe; they're so incredibly irritating to everyone that the only reason they haven't been slaughtered wholesale is because they have author fiat preventing it in the form of literal divine intervention.