X number of level 20 samurais vs 20 level druid.

[Emperor Demonking]

The complete warior version, how many of them would it take ro kill a level 20 druid.

[Nermy]

All of them.

[Emperor Demonking]

But that number would be 0, or maybe 1.

[Delta Nu Delta]

Threeve!!!

[Mr.Moron]

Clearly it has something to do getting enough samurai to collapse into a black hole. That or anti-matter samurai; something along those lines anyway. Don't forget about the dancing corndog!

[Frosty]

Judging by the comments here. It's almost as if people equate the Samurai to the Warrior in terms of power level (UNDER NINE THOOOOUSAND?!?!)

[Soups]

if the samurais take spring attack, who ever wins initiative. 3 to be sure.

[Telonius]

Judging by the comments here. It's almost as if people equate the Samurai to the Warrior in terms of power level (UNDER NINE THOOOOUSAND?!?!)

Yep. They're half a step up from Warrior, and that's mainly because of Kiai Smite and Bastard Sword proficiency.

[Chronos]

A level 20 druid would have no problem at all defeating an arbitrary number of samurai.

Step one: Wildshape into something inconspicuous, like a small bird. Ideally, join a flock of other similar birds.

Step two: Fly above the samurai. Cast Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) to produce a tornado-force updraft with a radius of 800 feet (with a calm eye in the center just big enough for your flock). Every round, each samurai must make a DC 30 Fortitude save (a reasonable failure chance for even a high-level melee class) or be sucked into the air to take 1d10 times 6d6 damage, plus 1d4 times 1d4 subdual damage, plus falling damage, and they're dragged away from any hope of escaping the area. Even if they identify the druid, ranged attacks are impossible. The druid can keep this up for over three hours, which is more than long enough to kill absolutely anything vulnerable to it.

Net cost to the druid: One wildshape use and one fifth-level spell.

[Lord Tataraus]

Yep. They're half a step up from Warrior, and that's mainly because of Kiai Smite and Bastard Sword proficiency.

What??? You've got to be kidding. The Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) is superior to the fighter, he can choose his good save as well as take rage, evasion, sneak attack, etc.

[Telonius]

What??? You've got to be kidding. The Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) is superior to the fighter, he can choose his good save as well as take rage, evasion, sneak attack, etc.

Different Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm).

[VerdugoExplode]

All of these people aren't giving this thread the serious consideration it deserves. Shame on them. As to the question itself it would obviously take eleventeen samurais to stand a chance against a druid.

[cupkeyk]

I would say twenty. Since they need to roll a d20 for initiative, this guarantees at least one of them precedes the druid. Since concentration is a Samurai Skill the samurai(all of them, samurai is still samurai in plural) in question can take kensai levels and and Exotic Weapon Master. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Uncanny Blow(exotic weapon master ability) Iron will, Lady's Gambit. An 18 STR samurai Kensai Exotic weapon master can get +16 Strength Modifier, Lady's Gambit 20HP, and PA all BAB with a +5 Keen Bastard Sword. +31 to hit, with a 127 modifier to damage. The Samurai will make a leap attack power attack, two handed, lady's gambit seppuku and save his honor. He gets reinarnarnated as a Druid/Planar Shepherd.

[nobodylovesyou4]

What??? You've got to be kidding. The Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) is superior to the fighter, he can choose his good save as well as take rage, evasion, sneak attack, etc.

i KNEW you had been doing something wrong all this time... you werent using the npc class. shame on you.

[Illiterate Scribe]

How many Samurai would one need to create a black hole? They're fairly heavily armoured, so it shouldn't be too many ...

[Woot Spitum]

I would say twenty. Since they need to roll a d20 for initiative, this guarantees at least one of them precedes the druid. Since concentration is a Samurai Skill the samurai(all of them, samurai is still samurai in plural) in question can take kensai levels and and Exotic Weapon Master. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Uncanny Blow(exotic weapon master ability) Iron will, Lady's Gambit. An 18 STR samurai Kensai Exotic weapon master can get +16 Strength Modifier, Lady's Gambit 20HP, and PA all BAB with a +5 Keen Bastard Sword. +31 to hit, with a 127 modifier to damage. The Samurai will make a leap attack power attack, two handed, lady's gambit seppuku and save his honor. He gets reinarnarnated as a Druid/Planar Shepherd.

The OP did say level 20 Samurais, not level 20 characters with levels in samurai. Otherwise you could use a character with mostly Warblade or even wizard levels. Of course then the druid could take levels of Planar Shepherd...

[Bender]

How many Samurai would one need to create a black hole? They're fairly heavily armoured, so it shouldn't be too many ...

I'd say about 6x10^28 if they are 100kg each

If you can press them hard enough together, it can be done with less

[Fax Celestis]

Druid: Step one: cast mass drown or tsunami
Step two: Wildshape into something dangerous and finish off the survivors.

[F.L.]

Well, assuming wealth by level, if they all get greater circlets of blasting...

Or substitute 1/day items of a spell that'd actually work. Alternately, enough longbows with arrows with some kind of seeking enchantment to counteract the windstorm would do it. Of course, none of these rely on any Samurainess.

Edit: Oh, and of course these are flying/teleporting 20th level samurai, naturallly. With who knows what else.

[Kantolin]

If you can get multiple of the Samurai to win initiative, and have some capability to get into range of the Druid, then the Samurai can win fairly easily, luck-dependantly.

[Kurald Galain]

Wasn't :miko: a samurai? Interesting...

[Chronos]

Wasn't :miko: a samurai? Interesting...Yes and no... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

Miko's build is actually reasonably viable, if you assume that she has many great ability scores.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Let me guess, you have no idea what the joke in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) was?

Long story short, Miko was a Monk/Paladin who held the title of Samurai.

And if you give all the Samurai items of Flight (Wings or Boots of Flying, probably), a few dozen might have a shot. The Druid could burrow away (are there magic items that give burrow or earth glide?) but as he couldn't cast spells from underground, that'd be a draw.

EDIT: Ninja-that's-actually-a-Monk/Rogue'd!

[Kurald Galain]

Let me guess, you have no idea what the joke in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) was?

Well duh, that's why I'm suggesting it! (I'll add a smily next time - :smallbiggrin: ) This is the one kind of samurai that actually stands a chance against a 20th-level druid, considering how she managed to defeat :redcloak:.

[Lapak]

A level 20 druid would have no problem at all defeating an arbitrary number of samurai.

Step one: Wildshape into something inconspicuous, like a small bird. Ideally, join a flock of other similar birds.

Step two: Fly above the samurai. Cast Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm) to produce a tornado-force updraft with a radius of 800 feet (with a calm eye in the center just big enough for your flock). Every round, each samurai must make a DC 30 Fortitude save (a reasonable failure chance for even a high-level melee class) or be sucked into the air to take 1d10 times 6d6 damage, plus 1d4 times 1d4 subdual damage, plus falling damage, and they're dragged away from any hope of escaping the area. Even if they identify the druid, ranged attacks are impossible. The druid can keep this up for over three hours, which is more than long enough to kill absolutely anything vulnerable to it.

Net cost to the druid: One wildshape use and one fifth-level spell.Assuming that NONE of the level 20 samurai have items that would protect them from the wind or allow them to escape it, which is unlikely at best, you still aren't defeating an arbitrary number of samurai. An army of 10,000,000,000 level 20 samurai would be able to keep on coming long after the three hours was over, long after the druid collapsed from exhaustion, long after the druid had cast every spell and been whittled down by one hit at a time. They'd cover so much land area that the druid couldn't get far enough away by flying to escape them.

So unless someone has a significantly better tactic, there is definitely an upper limit to how many Samurai the druid can kill. And, as I said, that's assuming utterly naked magic item-less level 20 opponents, which is at best extremely unlikely. I'm guessing the actual number of level 20 opponents, fully kitted out per WBL, that a level 20 druid could defeat is somewhere in the sub-100 range.

[Woot Spitum]

Assuming that NONE of the level 20 samurai have items that would protect them from the wind or allow them to escape it, which is unlikely at best, you still aren't defeating an arbitrary number of samurai. An army of 10,000,000,000 level 20 samurai would be able to keep on coming long after the three hours was over, long after the druid collapsed from exhaustion, long after the druid had cast every spell and been whittled down by one hit at a time. They'd cover so much land area that the druid couldn't get far enough away by flying to escape them.

So unless someone has a significantly better tactic, there is definitely an upper limit to how many Samurai the druid can kill. And, as I said, that's assuming utterly naked magic item-less level 20 opponents, which is at best extremely unlikely. I'm guessing the actual number of level 20 opponents, fully kitted out per WBL, that a level 20 druid could defeat is somewhere in the sub-100 range.
Do name the magic item that protects you from being sucked into a tornado, saying that it theoretically exists does not make it real.

[JaxGaret]

So unless someone has a significantly better tactic, there is definitely an upper limit to how many Samurai the druid can kill. And, as I said, that's assuming utterly naked magic item-less level 20 opponents, which is at best extremely unlikely. I'm guessing the actual number of level 20 opponents, fully kitted out per WBL, that a level 20 druid could defeat is somewhere in the sub-100 range.

This question needs to be answered. Is this with WBL, or not?

If it goes WBL, then the number is definitely <10.

If they are indeed naked Samurai versus a naked foaming-at-the-mouth Druid, the number could be very high.

I think the second one, or a Samurais vs. Druid battle with very low wealth, could be debated fairly reasonably. The first one just leads to magic item combos.


Do name the magic item that protects you from being sucked into a tornado, saying that it theoretically exists does not make it real.

All you need is an item that protects you from the tornado's worst effects, and I believe any item that grants a Fly speed accomplishes that.

[Frosty]

a level 20 druid could defeat is somewhere in the sub-100 range.

the fact that you have to use the phrase "sub-100" doesn't strike you as to how brokenated a Druid might be? :smallamused:

[Kyeudo]

The OPs question is not how many samurai that a druid could kill, but rather how many samurai it takes to kill a druid. The druid could merely run away, and since the Druid can hide better than a Samurai could find him, the answer to this is: Enough Samurai to ensure that there is no location availible where there is not at least 20 samurai within striking range that have a clear line of sight to that spot.

[Lapak]

the fact that you have to use the phrase "sub-100" doesn't strike you as to how brokenated a Druid might be? :smallamused:When did I ever say that the Druid wasn't powerful, or that the Samurai didn't suck? I was just objecting to the idea that a druid can defeat an 'arbitrarily high' number of level-20 opponents, of any class. As JaxGaret said, given magical items in the mix the number is likely to be substantially lower than 100, but I wouldn't put a dozen or three pure non-casters past a full-caster like the druid. But an army's worth is out of the question.

[Frosty]

What about an army of level 5 opponents?

[ZeroNumerous]

Kyeudo: That number is high enough that the entire Material Plane would have to be covered in Samurai.

[Woot Spitum]

All you need is an item that protects you from the tornado's worst effects, and I believe any item that grants a Fly speed accomplishes that. So having a fly speed prevents you from being sucked into a whirlwind that can suck you off the ground? Well, if it's in the rules...

For the sake of catgirls everywhere, I will refrain from further comment.:smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

All you need is an item that protects you from the tornado's worst effects, and I believe any item that grants a Fly speed accomplishes that.Actually, high winds have considerably worse effects on anything that's flying.

I won't begrudge the samurai items, but what item or combination of items would help them versus the druid? Be specific.

[JaxGaret]

Actually, high winds have considerably worse effects on anything that's flying.

I won't begrudge the samurai items, but what item or combination of items would help them versus the druid? Be specific.

I'm going to take a look at Control Winds now, get back to you in a bit.


Control Winds
Transmutation [Air]
Level: Air 5, Drd 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft./level
Area: 40 ft./level radius cylinder 40 ft. high
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: No

You alter wind force in the area surrounding you. You can make the wind blow in a certain direction or manner, increase its strength, or decrease its strength. The new wind direction and strength persist until the spell ends or until you choose to alter your handiwork, which requires concentration. You may create an “eye” of calm air up to 80 feet in diameter at the center of the area if you so desire, and you may choose to limit the area to any cylindrical area less than your full limit.
Wind Direction

You may choose one of four basic wind patterns to function over the spell’s area.

* A downdraft blows from the center outward in equal strength in all directions.
* An updraft blows from the outer edges in toward the center in equal strength from all directions, veering upward before impinging on the eye in the center.
* A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion.
* A blast simply causes the winds to blow in one direction across the entire area from one side to the other.

Wind Strength

For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. Each round on your turn, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being in the windy area.

Strong winds (21+ mph) make sailing difficult.

A severe wind (31+ mph) causes minor ship and building damage.

A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships.

Hurricane force winds (75+ mph) destroy wooden buildings, sometimes uproot even large trees, and cause most ships to founder.

A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.

Could you explain to me, exactly, what effect you are having the Control Winds spell produce? Your description was a bit vague, but my guess is that it was the Updraft effect at Tornado strength - am I correct?

After I have that clarification I can rebut - probably involving the fact that Control Winds' effect only extends 40' high, so that once a character is blown clear of it, they are no longer affected by it and can fly normally.

[Chronos]

I thought I was pretty clear on that: "Cast Control Winds to produce a tornado-force updraft". On thinking about it some more, though, a downdraft would be better. I originally chose updraft to keep the sammies from escaping, but any that escape I'll just take care of later. More important to keep them away from me.

Oh, and from an earlier post:
An army of 10,000,000,000 level 20 samurai would be able to keep on coming long after the three hours was over, long after the druid collapsed from exhaustion, long after the druid had cast every spell and been whittled down by one hit at a time.Once the druid starts running low on resources (no matter what tactic he's using), he can turn into an earth elemental, use Earth Glide, and rest deep underground. For that matter, he can do so as soon as he casts Control Winds, since the spell doesn't require concentration. Or maybe cast one tornado, glide under it to another location, and cast another tornado (or something else nasty) there.

[JaxGaret]

I thought I was pretty clear on that: "Cast Control Winds to produce a tornado-force updraft".

That seemed to be what you wanted, but that tactic is easily nullified by the Samurai having an item that grants a Fly speed - once the character is thrown out of the tornado-force updraft's effect, they can fly normally.

[Weasel2007]

Wouldn't rotation stop them being blown clear

[Guy_Whozevl]

Who ever wins initiative will probably win. Despite how the Samurai sucks, you can still charge in with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, etc. and do decent damage. Odds are, the Samurai might win initiative more consistantly, due to them getting it as a bonus feat and the fact that Druids can dump Dexterity after getting Wild Shape. This is, however, considering fair battle conditions (flat plain/arena).
Even if this doesn't work (assuming the Druid survives the hit and manages to first-whatever), there is a 1/8000 chance that the Druid will drop no matter what, according to the laws of probability, if you are using the 20-20-confirm the hit = an instant kill. However, I think this is a varient rule and can be negated by Fortification armor.
It seems that this class comparison thread doesn't really work in the sense that there are too many variable to consider. Yes, the Druid can fly and cast a cyclone over the Samurai, decimating them, but the battle could also take place in a small, enclosed metal room where the Samurai can wack the Druid normally. Just too subjective (although I do agree that powerwise, Samurais phail compared to Druids).

[Inyssius Tor]

Judging by the comments here. It's almost as if people equate the Samurai to the Warrior in terms of power level (UNDER NINE THOOOOUSAND?!?!)

Yep. They're half a step up from Warrior, and that's mainly because of Kiai Smite and Bastard Sword proficiency.

It's actually been shown, on these forums, that in a fight between a Warrior and a Samurai--well, the Warrior is actually better, unless the Samurai throws away that useless bastard-sword/short-sword combo and uses a greatsword instead.

[Frosty]

It's actually been shown, on these forums, that in a fight between a Warrior and a Samurai--well, the Warrior is actually better, unless the Samurai throws away that useless bastard-sword/short-sword combo and uses a greatsword instead.

Link please? :smalleek: