A riddle you don't need to solve

[Boci]

So I have a scenario in mind. My players would be about 6th level, moving through a forested area. Someway, perhaps written on a tree trunk or relayed by a denizen of the forest, they will hear the following riddle:

Tune of the forest, with fists of wood,
Don’t call me evil, but I’m not good.
Your will is weak, come dance with me,
But be extra careful of debris.
In the forest, numbers can lie,
Beware an foe’s surprise ally
For I’m a trickster, and not to be outdone,
A hundred is often worse than one.
Until that one becomes a horde,
A foe impervious to sword.
And if I wish to wound you deep,
I’ll invoke a pact and mark you hence,
To inspire a crowd’s anger so intense,
to recover you’ll need more than sleep.

Shortly after this, they will find themselves in a clearing, overgrown and littered with cut branches, with an ancient, crumbling stone alter in the centre. About one or two rounds after they arrive, the enemy does too and initiative is rolled. Nowhere in this sequence is solving or even engaging with the riddle necessary, but the riddle does contain some hints as to the enemy's nature or abilities.

So, would this be an acceptable way to include a riddle in a game for you?
And what, if anything, would you do or expect based on the riddle?
And finally for bonus points, can you guess the enemy?

[Calthropstu]

Most of this riddle suggests a satyr except the last part. They are definitely fighting charmed people of some kind, so conjuring a hound archon would be perfect. Their automatic circle of protectioncan definitely help.

The riddle is moderately difficult. Definitely some kind of fey. Not a dryad or nymph because those are good. I could probably figure it out by going through the monster list.

But the fact they are fighting people who are charmed is reuadily apparent. And completely solving the riddle is not needed. Just protection from evil everyone and you are good to go and find and kill the puppet master.

[Boci]

Most of this riddle suggests a satyr except the last part. They are definitely fighting charmed people of some kind, so conjuring a hound archon would be perfect. Their automatic circle of protectioncan definitely help.

The riddle is moderately difficult. Definitely some kind of fey. Not a dryad or nymph because those are good. I could probably figure it out by going through the monster list.

But the fact they are fighting people who are charmed is reuadily apparent. And completely solving the riddle is not needed. Just protection from evil everyone and you are good to go and find and kill the puppet master.

It is a fey, correct, and yeah, not a satyr, dryad or nymph. Going strictly by RAW, I don't think protection from evil will blank that ability, but the other bonuses of the spell will help the party.

[ciopo]

It makes me think of a swarm

[H_H_F_F]

As a player, I really enjoy this stuff, but I'm often disappointed if I put time and cleverness into figuring it out, and have nothing to do with this information. Since this obviously points towards mind control, I'd try and make sure whatever they try in advance to counteract that will have some utility in the encounter. If they cast protection from evil, which you said won't help, consuder adding to the encounter another creature or threat that would be blocked by that. You get the idea.

As for the creature, I'm not as well versed as others, but nothing pops to mind - which is good, in my opinion. If you suspect your players will immidiately know what creature this is, change the poem. Trying to solve a riddle is great, as is getting the ah-ha moment when the answer is revealed. Knowing the answer as a player but not as a character sucks.

Good luck! I like the riddle a lot. Would you be interested in advice regarding the rhythmic structure? (Not sure this is the right word, thinking in Hebrew about this.)

[Boci]

It makes me think of a swarm

Making sure each party member can do something against a swarm will be b


Since this obviously points towards mind control, I'd try and make sure whatever they try in advance to counteract that will have some utility in the encounter. If they cast protection from evil, which you said won't help, consuder adding to the encounter another creature or threat that would be blocked by that.

To avoid being too vague and risk misunderstand, its a sonic, mind-affecting ability. Protection from Evil's bonus to saves will help, but I don't believe it will grant immunity, since it doesn't have the charm or compulsion tag, and doesn't really grant the creature control over anyone.

Though maybe the ability should have the compulsion tag, that might be an oversight.


Good luck! I like the riddle a lot. Would you be interested in advice regarding the rhythmic structure? (Not sure this is the right word, thinking in Hebrew about this.)

Sure yeah. Any tips on rhythmic structure?

[H_H_F_F]

So, up to the last 4 lines of the poem, you're rhyming in 2s, right? You've got a line, you've got another line that rhymes with it, full stop. New rhyme. You also start with 2 lines of exactly nine syllables, divided into 5-4 sections with a comma, which is why they flow so easily.

These opening lines set up the poem to have a very clear form, and you sort of keep to that form later - though not as precisely. You start having slant rhymes, like "lie" and "ally", which aren't stressed the same way, and your syllable count (starting with 9-9), becomes 8-9, 8-8 (slant rhyme), 11-9, and 8-7 (or 8-8? I'm not sure whether or not I'm pronouncing impervious correctly. Is it "Im-Per-Vi-Oos or Im-Perv-Use?).

Moving from equal lines to non-equal ones creates a sort of awkwardness. That can definetly be addressed by the way you read the poem - a pause in the second line of a rhyme can replace a syllable or two if you're intentional and attentive. That's somewhat harder to do when the first line is the shorter one, which is very felt in your second rhyme. As I said, it can all be solved through an intent way of reading it. Try reading it out loud for yourself a couple of time, using that whimsical voice that the style alludes to. See the feel that the first rhyme creates, and see if the other lines follow. If not, rewrite! It doesn't have to be exactly the same every time, or divide perfectly. It's better if it's not, IMO. Still, there's something to be said for following through on the structural declaration of intentions you've made with the first rhyme. As a (very rough, non native speaker) example, to give you the general idea:

Song of the forest, fists of wood/
Don't call me evil, neither good.
Your will is weak, come dance with me!
But heed, beware, there's much debris.
For in these forests numbers lie/
Don't watch your back and you will die.
The trickster cannot be outdone!
A hundred foes are worse than one.
Until that one becomes a horde/
Then witness, useless is the sword.

And if I wish to wound you deep, A dark pact's power I'll invoke/
And you won't find in food or sleep, a remedy for wrath awoke.

If you can feel like the one I wrote flows better, and you like it more, try and write something more like it - preserving the 8 syllable rhyme pattern, doubled for the last section. If you don't feel that way, then you're probably reciting yours in a way that compensates for it's less stable structure, and you can leave it as is and feel good about it.

[Thurbane]

I was thinking Bacchae, but they aren't Fey. Pact made me think Verdant Prince, but they don't really fit with the rest of the clues. Glaistig, but seem like wrong terrain/environment. Maybe it's a custom creature, or I'm not thinking hard enough.

I thought Glaistigs were arctic, I was confusing them with Frostwind Verago. I think it may be Glaistig?

As for my general takeaway from the clues? Some kind of mind affecting dance attack (Otto's maybe?); surprise ally - maybe an animated tree or plants; some kind of swarm, or creature with DR that slashing weapons are less effective against; and the pact maybe some kind of curse?

[Boci]

I was thinking Bacchae, but they aren't Fey. Pact made me think Verdant Prince, but they don't really fit with the rest of the clues. Glaistig, but seem like wrong terrain/environment. Maybe it's a custom creature, or I'm not thinking hard enough.

I thought Glaistigs were arctic, I was confusing them with Frostwind Verago. I think it may be Glaistig?

Not a glaistig, not custom either, not even that obscure as source books go.

It is however evil. That line was a bit cheeky of me, and appears to be tripping people up more than I anticipated. I can rewrite it in the final version. Maybe "Not undecided, and far from good" instead.


As for my general takeaway from the clues? Some kind of mind affecting dance attack (Otto's maybe?); surprise ally - maybe an animated tree or plants; some kind of swarm, or creature with DR that slashing weapons are less effective against; and the pact maybe some kind of curse?

Pretty much. Its not Otto's, it has a save, the players are only level 6 (though I think pixies can have it even before then, but still), and yeah, they can summon a swarm.

[Thurbane]

Ah. Banshrae, then?

[Boci]

Yep, that's the one.

[Calthropstu]

Yep, that's the one.

It is a mind influencing compulsion effect which protection fromvevil totally affects.

[Boci]

It is a mind influencing compulsion effect which protection fromvevil totally affects.

Its not a compulsion though, it only has the mind affection and sonic tags. You could argue that's an oversight, but that seems to be more "DM's call" territory, rather than "totally works". Especially since while I could see an argument for "must dance" and "must blabber" being compulsions, "you feel sad" almost certainly isn't.

[Calthropstu]

Its not a compulsion though, it only has the mind affection and sonic tags. You could argue that's an oversight, but that seems to be more "DM's call" territory, rather than "totally works". Especially since while I could see an argument for "must dance" and "must blabber" being compulsions, "you feel sad" almost certainly isn't.

The writeup I looked at clearly states at the very bottom of the ability "This is a mind influencing compulsion effect"

If that writeup is incorrect, I appologise.

Maddening Music (Su) As a swift action
at will, a banshrae can play one of the following melodies. All creatures that
can hear a banshrae’s song within 60 feet, except for fey, must succeed a DC 21
Will save or suffer the following:
Disturbing Dirge: Creatures affected by a banshrae’s disturbing dirge are shaken
Silly Sing-a-long: Creatures affected by a banshrae’s silly sing-a-long are compelled to sing, giving them a -10 penalty on all
Stealth checks and making them incapable of speaking, using spells with verbal
components or using items with a command word.
Traveling Tune: Creatures affected by a banshrae’s traveling tune must spend their move action every turn moving at least half of their speed.
This is a mind-influencing compulsion effect, and the save DC is Charisma based.

[Boci]

Yeah, that write up is incorrect. Its referencing "stealth" which is pathfinder, not 3.5 and banshrae is from MM V, and they've made other changes too, like removing the fact that the flute also works as a blowgun, traveller's tune requires you to move 20ft, not half your speed, and yeah, it doesn't have the compulsion tag. Looks like you found someone who converted it to pathfinder.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, that write up is incorrect. Its referencing "stealth" which is pathfinder, not 3.5 and banshrae is from MM V, and they've made other changes too, like removing the fact that the flute also works as a blowgun, traveller's tune requires you to move 20ft, not half your speed, and yeah, it doesn't have the compulsion tag. Looks like you found someone who converted it to pathfinder.

Well then. Guess that answers that. I don't have access to mmV so eh? Finding that much was tricky. So carry on I suppose.

[Boci]

Well then. Guess that answers that. I don't have access to mmV so eh? Finding that much was tricky. So carry on I suppose.

Ah right, let me type it up here so we can be on the same page:

Blowgun Flute (Su): At will, as an immediate action, a banshrae can call into being a masterwork flute that also functions as a masterwork greater blowgun (10-foot range increment). A banshrae can have only one such flute at a time, and the instrument disappears if the fey loses possession of it.
Each round, a banshrae can play its flute as a swift action to create one of the effects detailed below. Opponents within a 60-foot-radius spread who can hear the flute can be affected (will save DC 22 negates)-the effect ends if the enemy can no longer hear the music creating it. The tunes are sonic mind-affecting abilities.
Dread Dirge: This mournful tune creates deep unease. Affected creatures are shaken. This is a fear effect.
Gibbering Sing-Along: This catchy melody forces listeners to blather meaningless sounds. Affected creatures fail Move Silently checks, give away their position if invisible or hidden, cannot talk, and cannot cast spells that have verbal components.
Traveller's Tune: This sprightly ditty forces affected creatures to move at least 20ft on their turns.

So yeah, maybe the second two should be compulsions, they literally say "force", but by RAW they aren't. Then again, I checked another monster, Pleasure Devil, they have beguile, which allowed them to make a target immediately take a full rounds worth of actions as they desire, and that is only classed as "mind-affecting enchantment", so maybe WotC was just bad at applying the compulsion tag to abilities.

So for Calthropstu and the other people who may not be familiar with the banshae, let me explain what each part was referencing:


Tune of the forest, with fists of wood,

References their music based ability, and they fight unarmed, punching for 2d6+3 and have the stunning fist ability, which I feel can be characterized as being "of wood".


Don’t call me evil, but I’m not good.

As I said, this line is a little cheeky, they are evil, I was trying to reference an idea that fey being part of nature are sometimes lore-wise considered beyond or except from good or evil, but if that's too much of a stretch as I said I could replace the line with "Not undecided, and far from good,"


Your will is weak, come dance with me,

References the flute ability written out above, it requires a will save.


But be extra careful of debris.

This is reference to how debris sufficient to count as difficult terrain turn "Traveller's Tune", from an upgraded stagger to an almost functional daze, as the players would have to double move to meet the 20ft requirement.


In the forest, numbers can lie,
Beware an foe’s surprise ally

This sets up two abilities with their blowgun.


For I’m a trickster, and not to be outdone,
A hundred is often worse than one.

They can create a 15ft cone of darts, dealing 4d6 damage ref save half. I'm characterizing this as 100 darts for the sake of the riddle.


Until that one becomes a horde,
A foe impervious to sword.

1/day they can launch a single dart that requires a fortitude save. If the target fails, they take some damage, are sickened for 1 round, and most importantly summons a locust swarm for 2d6 rounds that obeys the banshrae.


And if I wish to wound you deep,
I’ll invoke a pact and mark you hence,
To inspire a crowd’s anger so intense,
to recover you’ll need more than sleep.

This ability references a 1/day bestow curse they have as a spell like ability. It actually seems pretty mild (-6 diplomacy and bluff and -2 AC) fluffed as inspiring anger from those around you. But everything else the banshrae can do to you either has a 1 round duration or is just hit point damage, so this did seem significant.

I didn't reference their DR cold iron, figured being a fey covered that, they also get Cha to AC, but that's hard to reference and most parties can't interact with that. They don't lose their dex bonus to AC when flatfooted, so maybe there should be a line for that. Every other ability though of theirs is referenced.

So yeah, people picked up on the swarm, so CR 3, but yeah, preparing for that would help, and if nothing else protection from evil will give +2 to saves against the music and the locust dart, so not wasted abilities.

Oh and finally,



Song of the forest, fists of wood/
Don't call me evil, neither good.
Your will is weak, come dance with me!
But heed, beware, there's much debris.
For in these forests numbers lie/
Don't watch your back and you will die.
The trickster cannot be outdone!
A hundred foes are worse than one.
Until that one becomes a horde/
Then witness, useless is the sword.

And if I wish to wound you deep, A dark pact's power I'll invoke/
And you won't find in food or sleep, a remedy for wrath awoke.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, thank you very much, this does look cleaner. I'll go other the two and see which one I want to use.