So about a TWF Champion…(post-Tashas)

[dreast]

Many have decried the waste of bonus actions involved in the two-weapon fighting style, and its weaker status among FSs. But it occurred to me that if there was a class somewhere that had practically no use for bonus actions (so, not rangers) AND had a natural ability to pump up the power of an attack, wouldn’t it be an ideal fit? And then I had a sudden image (literally) of the much-maligned champion picking up a second weapon, and smiling.

Hear me out. Our intrepid champion would pick up a second fighting style at 10th, which until Tasha’s really didn’t have much that synergized with TWF. But Tasha’s introduced blind fighting, and the world shifted. The TWF feat already bumps up a point of AC and yields the ability to stow or draw both (non-light) weapons together. Now, the races that would work best with the build I have in mind would be V. Human (who can use their extra feat on Magic Initiate, or Aberrant Dragonmark if allowed in the campaign, to pick up fog cloud) or tiefling or drow (who get darkness on their own). (These are particularly relevant because they work even in campaigns where feats aren’t allowed, although the loss of TWF feat does hurt.)

Let’s stick with drow by way of example. At level 10 the drow can pick up blind fighting, which negates sunlight sensitivity (by way of a blindfold, perhaps) and gives them massive advantages under cover of darkness, on top of swinging three times a turn (five with action surge) bumping up to four/seven at eleven, with improved criticals triggering off of all those advantageous swings, long ears flopping on either side of their blindfold, two massive swords in hand…

…isn’t that just a Warcraft demon hunter?

Like I said, a literal image popped into my head.

[Kane0]

You could certainly do worse. It won't be gamebreakingly strong but certainly functional and, dare I say, enjoyable. You could spend your extra Fighter ASIs on things like Martial Adept, Fighting Initiate, Elven Accuracy, Crusher/Slasher, even Magic Initiate for another Fog Cloud up your sleeve.
The only problem you might come across every now and again is wanting to use Second Wind while TWFing.

[P. G. Macer]

There is something of a dissonance between RAI and RAF on negating sunlight sensitivity. Jeremy Crawford has stated that sunlight sensitivity is more akin to an allergic reaction of the whole body than it is to an eye condition, so your blindfold idea doesn’t work RAI. On the other hand, special sunglasses and other gimmicks to circumvent sunlight sensitivity are popular homebrew ideas, so RAF clearly differs wildly here.

[Greywander]

This would probably work fine. If you wanted to be more optimized, then you could grab PAM and a suitable polearm. The champion's improved crit range benefits from using a larger weapon die, and also from being a half-orc. PAM gives you your BA attack, as well. But TWF on a drow shouldn't be too much worse.

It should be noted that, as written, merely being in sunlight causes disadvantage, it has nothing to do with vision or what you can or can't see. That said, I suspect this is an oversight. Unless someone can point out something in the lore that says otherwise, I'd rule it as sunlight only impairing your sight, so with Blind Fighting you wouldn't even need to be blindfolded, as blindsight works alongside your normal sight.

The Eversmoking Bottle is a magic item you might want to pick up on such a character, and really any character with blindsight. It requires no attunement and has no limits on how often it can be used. Just be aware the the cloud of smoke spreads out far enough that it might impair your teammates, and can probably be noticed from a ways away. If you can coordinate with your team, you could have everyone dip into fighter/paladin/ranger or grab the feat to get Blind Fighting so that you all have blindsight. This really buffs spells like Fog Cloud and Darkness, if you don't have the Eversmoking Bottle.

[Dork_Forge]

You could just take Half Elf with the Drow lineage from SCAG, you just trade out Skill Versatility for the Drow casting, no Sunlight Sensitivity and eligible for Elven Accuracy.

It'd work as a build just fine, personally I'd take a weapon feat (Crusher, Piercer, Slasher) for the additional crit effects. This would likely be Piercer to use two short swords, then rapiers so you can trigger EA.


This would probably work fine. If you wanted to be more optimized, then you could grab PAM and a suitable polearm. The champion's improved crit range benefits from using a larger weapon die, and also from being a half-orc. PAM gives you your BA attack, as well. But TWF on a drow shouldn't be too much worse.

You're stealing from Peter to pay Paul, getting larger die sizes from the polearm is mostly balanced against having a 1d4 bonus action attack.

TWF allows d8 weapons with an AC bump from DW and opens the door to EA to get more crits.

[quindraco]

Many have decried the waste of bonus actions involved in the two-weapon fighting style, and its weaker status among FSs. But it occurred to me that if there was a class somewhere that had practically no use for bonus actions (so, not rangers) AND had a natural ability to pump up the power of an attack, wouldn’t it be an ideal fit? And then I had a sudden image (literally) of the much-maligned champion picking up a second weapon, and smiling.

Hear me out. Our intrepid champion would pick up a second fighting style at 10th, which until Tasha’s really didn’t have much that synergized with TWF. But Tasha’s introduced blind fighting, and the world shifted. The TWF feat already bumps up a point of AC and yields the ability to stow or draw both (non-light) weapons together. Now, the races that would work best with the build I have in mind would be V. Human (who can use their extra feat on Magic Initiate, or Aberrant Dragonmark if allowed in the campaign, to pick up fog cloud) or tiefling or drow (who get darkness on their own). (These are particularly relevant because they work even in campaigns where feats aren’t allowed, although the loss of TWF feat does hurt.)

Let’s stick with drow by way of example. At level 10 the drow can pick up blind fighting, which negates sunlight sensitivity (by way of a blindfold, perhaps) and gives them massive advantages under cover of darkness, on top of swinging three times a turn (five with action surge) bumping up to four/seven at eleven, with improved criticals triggering off of all those advantageous swings, long ears flopping on either side of their blindfold, two massive swords in hand…

…isn’t that just a Warcraft demon hunter?

Like I said, a literal image popped into my head.

Ludic has you covered:
Build 15: The Way of the Demonweb Spider (Blindfighting Half-Drow Shadow Monk / Battle Master)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831

[Dork_Forge]

Ludic has you covered:
Build 15: The Way of the Demonweb Spider (Blindfighting Half-Drow Shadow Monk / Battle Master)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831

Apart from being a Blindsight build this doesn't have anything to do with TWF at all...

[DarknessEternal]

The only problem you might come across every now and again is wanting to use Second Wind while TWFing.

Second Wind is not a bonus action.

[quindraco]

Apart from being a Blindsight build this doesn't have anything to do with TWF at all...

Unless you're specifically obsessed with TWF being a style on your character sheet or something, it absolutely does. Martial Arts grants an ability that works in every way like an unarmed-specific (unless you spend ki) TWF style, except that the style doesn't show up by name on your character sheet.


Second Wind is not a bonus action.

Yes it is.

[Hytheter]

You have a limited well of stamina that you can draw on to protect yourself from harm. On your turn, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d10 + your fighter level.

Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

Just in case there was any doubt, there.

[Witty Username]

I am not sure if you wouldn't be better off with battle master.

I wouldn't discount the ranger out right, Favored foe works with TWF, and off combat spells like goodberry and water breathing (I would add healing spirit if it hadn't been executed for high treason) won't interfere with it. And spells like entangle, Fog cloud, and plant growth would take the turn off anyway.
That being said you wouldn't get the second fighting style (but you could take a level in fighter for that) and I think the ranger ranged build style would out perform you at high levels.

[Sherlockpwns]

One race you missed is Triton, which also gets fog cloud. Depending on the campaign it may be a stronger choice, though it does mean no elf triple advantage.

In my opinion the problem is that you don’t get a second fighting style till level 10, and really do you even need twf? At most it’s +5 dpr. That’s big at level 1, but level 10+?

At the end of the day I believe you can two-hand a versatile weapon and then draw your offhand, which does give you the spicy d10/d8 combo (dm approval required for dropping and picking up your weapon mid turn, otherwise it’s every other turn).

The frustrating thing about this is that it’s a solid build and plan that just gets done better by the shadow monk.

You do lose the extra crit range, but you gain way more casts of darkness, you basically do the same or more base damage, and most importantly you can now take an attack when you cast darkness, meaning the turn isn’t completely wasted setting up. You also gain the wide variety of monk abilities, evasion, slow fall, etc.

I do imagine the fighter pulls ahead at level 15+, maybe even at 11. If you are in a high level campaign it could certainly work. You can also use the similar build linked above and put in 3-4 levels of champion instead of BM, but I don’t think that was the goal here.

[Hytheter]

At the end of the day I believe you can two-hand a versatile weapon and then draw your offhand, which does give you the spicy d10/d8 combo (dm approval required for dropping and picking up your weapon mid turn, otherwise it’s every other turn).

TWF requires you to attack with a weapon held in one hand and to be holding the other weapon as well, so you would need to make at least one of your main action attacks one-handed to qualify.

[dreast]

I feel compelled to point out that my emphasis on Drow was simply as part of the Demon Hunter joke. My actual build for this character would probably be a variant human, taking two weapon fighting at first level and then taking whatever feat seem appropriate given the magical equipment forthcoming. And the eversmoking bottle, for example, would be a perfect reason to take hex with magic initiate/aberrant dragonmark. Or even a wizard/druid/ranger/warlock/sorcerer/etc. who could cover the obscurement for you.

I’ve never been a fan of elven accuracy, personally. Or hexblades, for that matter; I don’t allow either in campaigns I DM, as I view them as too far above the power curve for interesting play.

[Dork_Forge]

Unless you're specifically obsessed with TWF being a style on your character sheet or something, it absolutely does. Martial Arts grants an ability that works in every way like an unarmed-specific (unless you spend ki) TWF style, except that the style doesn't show up by name on your character sheet.


Martial Arts is not TWF, if the thread was about grabbing a bonus action attack in general, sure. If it was about replicating that Warcraft class then maybe? (I've never played Warcraft so I don't know)


However the feeling I got from the thread was about a use for TWF, or even the Champion, not making a build that uses a bonus action attack in general, so a build that uses Monk and Battlemaster seems completely off base.

[stoutstien]

Many have decried the waste of bonus actions involved in the two-weapon fighting style, and its weaker status among FSs. But it occurred to me that if there was a class somewhere that had practically no use for bonus actions (so, not rangers) AND had a natural ability to pump up the power of an attack, wouldn’t it be an ideal fit? And then I had a sudden image (literally) of the much-maligned champion picking up a second weapon, and smiling.

Hear me out. Our intrepid champion would pick up a second fighting style at 10th, which until Tasha’s really didn’t have much that synergized with TWF. But Tasha’s introduced blind fighting, and the world shifted. The TWF feat already bumps up a point of AC and yields the ability to stow or draw both (non-light) weapons together. Now, the races that would work best with the build I have in mind would be V. Human (who can use their extra feat on Magic Initiate, or Aberrant Dragonmark if allowed in the campaign, to pick up fog cloud) or tiefling or drow (who get darkness on their own). (These are particularly relevant because they work even in campaigns where feats aren’t allowed, although the loss of TWF feat does hurt.)

Let’s stick with drow by way of example. At level 10 the drow can pick up blind fighting, which negates sunlight sensitivity (by way of a blindfold, perhaps) and gives them massive advantages under cover of darkness, on top of swinging three times a turn (five with action surge) bumping up to four/seven at eleven, with improved criticals triggering off of all those advantageous swings, long ears flopping on either side of their blindfold, two massive swords in hand…

…isn’t that just a Warcraft demon hunter?

Like I said, a literal image popped into my head.

TFW isn't a waste of an action. It just scales backwards and as you level up the pressure for other option for that same bonus action increases.

Comparing the DW feat to just increasing your attack ability score(doublely so if dex focused due to all the other benefits) is a wash at best. So on and so forth.

[Dork_Forge]

Comparing the TWF to just increasing your attack ability score(doublely so if dex focused due to all the other benefits) is a wash at best. So on and so forth.

Sorry I've read this a couple times and can't make sense of it, do you mean the DW feat? I'm not sure otherwise why the TWF style would be in contention with a stat bump, or how that bump could be a wash with it.

[stoutstien]

Sorry I've read this a couple times and can't make sense of it, do you mean the DW feat? I'm not sure otherwise why the TWF style would be in contention with a stat bump, or how that bump could be a wash with it.

Aye the feat. Fingers slower than my eyes.

[Dork_Forge]

Aye the feat. Fingers slower than my eyes.

Yeah damage wise that makes sense, DW is the kind of feat you want at 1st with V. Human, or you want at 8th after you've maxed out your primary stat.

[dreast]

This discussion has made me realize I might want to try building this character as an NPC for some hypothetical players to fight. They'd basically be an 11th level Champion, with Blind Fight and Two-Weapon Fighting, and have an Eversmoking Bottle as a reward for the players if they kill her. (For some reason it's a woman in my mind.) Designed as a solo encounter and meant to be fairly tough, so I need the CR and then I need to determine if she'd be more fun to fight by nerfing the result but then buffing her back into a legendary or just have a very tough solo encounter (which might actually elevate the coolness factor). Indomitable kind of feels like legendary resistance light, so the legendary option seems like a possibility.

Starting with V. Human and the DW feat, for equipment she'll have two longswords, plate mail, and an eversmoking bottle. Being human (and thus medium) will nerf her hp slightly to d8s, so we'll give her a free +2 Con to compensate. In addition, she'll have the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. We'll also throw in Magic Initiate (Warlock) for Hex and ignore the cantrip (since this is a "monster" stat block, we can simplify these things). This makes her logical first round the action of unstopping the eversmoking bottle (the players need a chance to see their blindfolded smiling solo opponent) and then casting Hex when she moves within range. (I really wish it were feasible in this scenario in my mind for the hex to be cast before combat, so she could hit Dex checks against initiative, but I don't see her as much of a sneaky talker.)

I like her strong stats being Strength and Constitution and her weak stats being Intelligence and Charisma. She gets an ASI/feat at 4, 6, and 8, so we'll eat one of them as Magic Initiate and dump the other two into strength and end up with a stat line of 20, 14, 16, 8, 12, 10. 11d8 + 33 hp = 82 hp, 19 AC with TWF, and a very straightforward 4 attacks per round multiattack (three from her main hand and one from her off hand). Multiattack does not allow off-hand attacks, so we don't need to worry about complications there; it's just a translation from player rules to monster rules.

Average damage? Well, we'd presume she has advantage on all attacks thanks to bottle + blindsight, so we'll adjust her CR by the "Superior Invisibility" line and the rest are purely numbers. Her first turn is hex + bottle, so 0 damage; the rest (assuming all hits by the formula) are 4d8 + 4d6 + 20, or 52 damage, for 104 damage over the first three rounds. 104/3 = 35ish, with an attack bonus of +9. All in all, this gives her a total CR of 6, although being a non-legendary CR 6, she'd be considerably more deadly for groups of 4-5 level than otherwise expected.

Edit: I didn’t factor in the increased crit range, but that’s only 10ish more damage at most over three rounds, which I don’t think would shift her CR much. I’d def. give her that ability, though.

That seems about right. This would be a tough but fun fight for a group of four sixth level characters and a memorable one for four fifth levels; I wouldn't throw her against a non-optimized group of fourth level characters, though. That was fun!

[Kuulvheysoon]

This discussion has made me realize I might want to try building this character as an NPC for some hypothetical players to fight. They'd basically be an 11th level Champion, with Blind Fight and Two-Weapon Fighting, and have an Eversmoking Bottle as a reward for the players if they kill her. (For some reason it's a woman in my mind.) Designed as a solo encounter and meant to be fairly tough, so I need the CR and then I need to determine if she'd be more fun to fight by nerfing the result but then buffing her back into a legendary or just have a very tough solo encounter (which might actually elevate the coolness factor). Indomitable kind of feels like legendary resistance light, so the legendary option seems like a possibility.

Starting with V. Human and the DW feat, for equipment she'll have two longswords, plate mail, and an eversmoking bottle. Being human (and thus medium) will nerf her hp slightly to d8s, so we'll give her a free +2 Con to compensate. In addition, she'll have the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. We'll also throw in Magic Initiate (Warlock) for Hex and ignore the cantrip (since this is a "monster" stat block, we can simplify these things). This makes her logical first round the action of unstopping the eversmoking bottle (the players need a chance to see their blindfolded smiling solo opponent) and then casting Hex when she moves within range. (I really wish it were feasible in this scenario in my mind for the hex to be cast before combat, so she could hit Dex checks against initiative, but I don't see her as much of a sneaky talker.)

I like her strong stats being Strength and Constitution and her weak stats being Intelligence and Charisma. She gets an ASI/feat at 4, 6, and 8, so we'll eat one of them as Magic Initiate and dump the other two into strength and end up with a stat line of 20, 14, 16, 8, 12, 10. 11d8 + 33 hp = 82 hp, 19 AC with TWF, and a very straightforward 4 attacks per round multiattack (three from her main hand and one from her off hand). Multiattack does not allow off-hand attacks, so we don't need to worry about complications there; it's just a translation from player rules to monster rules.

Average damage? Well, we'd presume she has advantage on all attacks thanks to bottle + blindsight, so we'll adjust her CR by the "Superior Invisibility" line and the rest are purely numbers. Her first turn is hex + bottle, so 0 damage; the rest (assuming all hits by the formula) are 4d8 + 4d6 + 20, or 52 damage, for 104 damage over the first three rounds. 104/3 = 35ish, with an attack bonus of +9. All in all, this gives her a total CR of 6, although being a non-legendary CR 6, she'd be considerably more deadly for groups of 4-5 level than otherwise expected.

That seems about right. This would be a tough but fun fight for a group of four sixth level characters and a memorable one for four fifth levels; I wouldn't throw her against a non-optimized group of fourth level characters, though. That was fun!

Might I suggest the Feytouched feat instead of Magic Initiate? Instead of hex and two unused cantrips, you'd get hex along with misty step, with a +1 to your mental stat of choice as a bonus.

[dreast]

Might I suggest the Feytouched feat instead of Magic Initiate? Instead of hex and two unused cantrips, you'd get hex along with misty step, with a +1 to your mental stat of choice as a bonus.

Good point! Except it doesn’t really help this NPC… you have to see to misty step, so the range would drop to 10 feet. But a nice touch of utility for the PC version!