Flying Mount needed.

[bean illus]

I am researching flying mounts. I"ve read a lot, but i know someone here has tips and suggestions.

The goal is to invest as little as possible, while remaining relevant at later levels. The build is an archer. I wouldn't mind both mundane and magical options.

An example of 'little investment' is Moonsea Sentinel, which grants a large, 9 hd max hp dire hawk with 1 level, and a feat that's useful to the build.

If warbeast is applied (the only rational template i know for this), the stats are 140 hp, and 20 ac. Most mounts say 'normal of it's kind, etc, so i think that rules out most templates, feel free to convince me otherwise.


Something like this:

Dire Hawk (HD 10 max hp, + warbeast)
Large Animal
Alignment: Always neutral

Initiative: +5 (Dex);
Senses: low-light vision, Listen +8, and Spot +8*

AC: 20 (+5 Dex, +6 natural), -1 size, touch 14, flat-footed 15
Hit Dice: 10d8 max hp +60 (140 hp)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +9
Speed: 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average) +10'?
Space: 10/10
Base Attack +7; Grapple +17 (7 +6 str, +4 size)
Attack: Claw +13 melee
Full Attack: claws +13 melee and bite +8 melee
Damage: Claw 1d6+6, bite 1d8+3

Special Attacks/Actions:
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11
Str +11, Dex -2, Con +7, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +0

Special Qualities:
Feats: Alertness; Weapon Finesse
Skills: Listen 8, Move Silent 8, Spot 8*, +5 open
*A dire hawk receives a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks in daylight.


Another option is Wild Cohort. I think giant eagle is the go to? Is it better in the long run than Moonsea Sentinel 1?

Wild empathy, handle animal, diplomacy, and purchasing are all options, if that removes the optimization limits (templates?).

Animal companion and special mount are out, as i don't have enough levels or feats free.

Of course i need to handle animal as a free action, but i could also BUY a flying animal to train as an attacker.

SOURCES: All 1st party, including Dragon/etc, but try to keep the RAI.

I'm gonna quit typing and hope for responses. Thx

[Doctor Despair]

In the "Horselord" thread in my sig there are a lot of options for steeds. One that comes to mind as particularly low effort is the Blood Horse from Dragon 299. Iirc there's a mechanism in the magazine to just purchase one.

[Soranar]

Any mount can be flying with the right equipment. A lot of magic items (magic horseshoes) grant flight to horses and horses level up well with wild cohort

Personally I'd just take a wild cohort horse and level it

[Maat Mons]

I had a build once for a Jermaine who rode a Vulture.

Vultures were presented in Sandstorm, where they're noted as a 1st-level option for Animal Companion. Vultures were also presented in Dragon 323, where they were noted as an option for Familiar (just a regular one, not requiring the Improved Familiar feat). Being an option for Familiar makes Vulture an option for Urban Companion, which doesn't care very much about your level in Druid or Ranger.

There are other Small-size flyers, but Vulture is the most thematically-appropriate for Jermaine. Though Muckdweller would be a different story.

[Segev]

I am fond of the dire bat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat/bat-dire/) as a cheap flying mount. One trained for combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/animals-animal-gear/#TOC-Bat-Dire-Riding) is only 450 gp.

The ecalypse, in the Ephemera entry in the Manual of the Planes, is a bit trickier to get, but is a spectacular mount if you can reliably make the DC 35 ride check to tame it. One can be called up with planar binding and offered the chance to test you as a rider, thus releasing it from magical compulsion to serve to see if you can master it.

[Jack_Simth]

The main problem with non-bonded mounts is that they're very easily shot out from underneath you. The standard Dire Bat only has 22 HP. The Warbeast Template (MM II) makes any animal available for purchase... but most the flying animals have similar problems.

Oh, there's an idea. You could get a normal animal with a lot of hit dice (a dino, perhaps) as a Warbeast, then graft some wings on it. A Warbeast Tyrannosauras Rex would cost... 1525 gp and have 19 hit dice. A Feathered Wings graft would be 10k (and you'd have to watch your warbeast carefully, as it would regularly perform evil acts).

Edit: And, of course, Wild Cohort for a horse, plus a suitable item, would also do quite well.


dire bat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat/bat-dire/) as a cheap fish mount... autocorrect?

[Segev]

The main problem with non-bonded mounts is that they're very easily shot out from underneath you. The standard Dire Bat only has 22 HP. The Warbeast Template (MM II) makes any animal available for purchase... but most the flying animals have similar problems.

Oh, there's an idea. You could get a normal animal with a lot of hit dice (a dino, perhaps) as a Warbeast, then graft some wings on it. A Warbeast Tyrannosauras Rex would cost... 1525 gp and have 19 hit dice. A Feathered Wings graft would be 10k (and you'd have to watch your warbeast carefully, as it would regularly perform evil acts).

Edit: And, of course, Wild Cohort for a horse, plus a suitable item, would also do quite well.

... autocorrect?

Autocorrect, indeed. It's been doing that a lot to me lately. I am not sure why. I'll fix it after this post (assuming I remember).

False life and psionic vigor can do a lot to keep a mundane mount - flying or otherwise - from dropping too easily. Mounted Combatant really could stand to do more than it does; maybe try to talk your DM into changing it to "you may expend your hp instead of your mount's when your mount takes damage." A clause for not double-dipping on AoE damage would be good, too. Shield Other or friend shield or whatever it's called would also help a lot, though the rings of that are pricey.

The Ecalypse, IIRC, has something like 88 hp, which isn't too bad.

[Fouredged Sword]

My favorite mount is an eternal wand of command undead. Undead make the best mounts. Kill a dragon, or hire someone to POA a corpse into the desired dragon corpse. Hire a necromancer to raise it as a zombie dragon. Equip it with a shrinking collar from the A&EG. Now you have a full strength zombie dragon that's obedient to your will. Wear it like a backpack. You now have a breath weapon shooting jetpack that can fly you 300ft a round without using your action.

[Doctor Despair]

The mounted combat feat isn't bad for mount survivability, either :smallcool:

[Jack_Simth]

Autocorrect, indeed. It's been doing that a lot to me lately. I am not sure why. I'll fix it after this post (assuming I remember).

I usually avoid posting from mobile to avoid the problem, myself. I can turn off autocorrect on a full machine....


False life and psionic vigor can do a lot to keep a mundane mount - flying or otherwise - from dropping too easily.
In both 3.5 and Pathfinder, both are personal range. You'll need to go through some hoops to apply them to a non-bonded mount. It's doable, but is it really better than simply getting a bonded mount?

Mounted Combatant really could stand to do more than it does; maybe try to talk your DM into changing it to "you may expend your hp instead of your mount's when your mount takes damage." A clause for not double-dipping on AoE damage would be good, too. Shield Other or friend shield or whatever it's called would also help a lot, though the rings of that are pricey.
Shield Other. Hour/level Cleric-2 spell. Getting your mount to wear the required focus might be tricky in many cases, though.



The Ecalypse, IIRC, has something like 88 hp, which isn't too bad.
Just looked it up - good memory, my copy says 85. Useful abilities, too.

It's great if you can get it at level 9 or earlier, as it's as tough as many of your opponents at that level. But it doesn't scale without other help. What's great at first is OK later, then not so good, and eventually terrible. It's part of why many PC's skip mounts.

[Segev]

I usually avoid posting from mobile to avoid the problem, myself. I can turn off autocorrect on a full machine....

In both 3.5 and Pathfinder, both are personal range. You'll need to go through some hoops to apply them to a non-bonded mount. It's doable, but is it really better than simply getting a bonded mount?
Shield Other. Hour/level Cleric-2 spell. Getting your mount to wear the required focus might be tricky in many cases, though.


Just looked it up - good memory, my copy says 85. Useful abilities, too.

It's great if you can get it at level 9 or earlier, as it's as tough as many of your opponents at that level. But it doesn't scale without other help. What's great at first is OK later, then not so good, and eventually terrible. It's part of why many PC's skip mounts.

Yeah, it is a legitimate problem in 3.PF (and other editions/systems, but we're talking about this one). Good catch on false life and psionic vigor; I'm playing a vitalist who abuses vigor in a game, so I keep forgetting it's only BECAUSE he's a Vitalist that he can share it out. If you're a psionic character, share pain can be made to work to split damage with your mount, but that is, again, a non-trivial investment if you weren't doing that already.

It's conceivably possible to push your Ride up high enough to get an Ecalypse reliably by level 5 or so, but it takes serious investment and near-cheese in terms of how many skill-boosting things you're stacking. If you're willing to keep trying, though, all you need is to get to a +15 to be able to have a slim chance. Level 9 should be pretty easy, but as you say, that's kind-of the end of when it's good, unless your DM is generous enough to let you advance the HD.

Advancing HD is probably the easiest way to keep a non-bonded mount around for a little while longer, come to think of it. All it takes is the DM agreeing to let your mount gain an HD when you gain a level. It's not using any bonding rules, just...it's gaining XP to.

Obviously there are more straightforward feats (like "animal cohort") you could take for this, but taking Leadership and getting an Awakened animal that takes class levels as your cohort strikes me as funny and effective.

[Mechalich]

You can cheese getting your flying mount shot out from under you a little by using a Figurine of Wondrous Power, since those just convert back to statue mode upon 'death.' An Ebony Fly nets 25 hp 3 times a week. That might help you economize in the mid-levels.

[liquidformat]

Here are some potential ways to get a flying mount:
PRCs:
Knight of the Flying Hunt lvl1 (ECL8) Pegasus no special bonuses to mount
Moonsea Skysentinel lvl1 (ECL6) dire hawk gains bonuses based on MS lvl
Skylord lvl1 (ECL8) celestial giant eagle, celestial giant owl, or celestial pegasus gains bonuses based on skylord lvl
Aglarondan Griffonrider lvl1 (ECL8) Griffon gains bonuses based on AG lvl
Dragon Rider lvl1 (ECL11) Dragon gains bonuses based on DR lvl

Feats:
Leadership: Griffon at ECL10, Giant Eagle/Giant Owl at ECL6, Pegasus at ECL6
Leadership/Dragon Cohort: Dragons at varying lvl based on table 3-1 of Draconomicon
Animal Companion + Exalted Companion: Asperi 7th (-6), Giant eagle 7th (-6), Giant owl 7th (-6), Pegasus 7th (-6)
Wild Cohort: reference Animal Companion
Beast Totem + Totem Companion + Animal Companion: Chimera 13th (-12), Yrthak 16th(-15)

Animal Companion:
lvl 4: Dire Bat
lvl 7: Sailsnake, Dire Eagle, Dire Hawk
Lvl 10: Dire Vulture, Dragonhawk
lvl 16: Quetzalcoatlus, Roc

Familiar: Hippogriff CL7 (+7BaB)

Special Mount: Drakkensteed, Hippogriff, Griffon, Dire Bat; it is a bit ambiguous how you assign these as your special mount but there are some rules on doing so...

[Rebel7284]

Zhentarim Skymage can have some REAL broken mounts after only one level investment. However, being part of an evil and super racist organization is a bit of a cost in itself.

[Gorthawar]

The main problem with non-bonded mounts is that they're very easily shot out from underneath you. The standard Dire Bat only has 22 HP. The Warbeast Template (MM II) makes any animal available for purchase... but most the flying animals have similar problems.

Oh, there's an idea. You could get a normal animal with a lot of hit dice (a dino, perhaps) as a Warbeast, then graft some wings on it. A Warbeast Tyrannosauras Rex would cost... 1525 gp and have 19 hit dice. A Feathered Wings graft would be 10k (and you'd have to watch your warbeast carefully, as it would regularly perform evil acts).

When messing around with templates don't forget the dungeonbred template to get your critter to a more suitable size if necessary.

[bean illus]

In the "Horselord" thread in my sig there are a lot of options for steeds. One that comes to mind as particularly low effort is the Blood Horse from Dragon 299. Iirc there's a mechanism in the magazine to just purchase one.

I remember that thread. Thanks for reminding me.
Blood horse is one of those things i can't believe is so loaded. I suppose i should have said 'good or neutral alignment'.


Any mount can be flying with the right equipment. A lot of magic items (magic horseshoes) grant flight to horses and horses level up well with wild cohort

Personally I'd just take a wild cohort horse and level it

Wild cohort is good, and i ended up taking it. I really am looking into mundane flight options (just in case).


I am fond of the dire bat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat/bat-dire/) as a cheap flying mount. One trained for combat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/animals-animal-gear/#TOC-Bat-Dire-Riding) is only 450 gp.


That's a good option at some levels.


The main problem with non-bonded mounts is that they're very easily shot out from underneath you. The standard Dire Bat only has 22 HP. The Warbeast Template (MM II) makes any animal available for purchase... but most the flying animals have similar problems.


For ... 900 + 400 = 1,300 you can get a magebred warbeast dire bat. Now its 42.

Yeah, we'll need better.



It's great if you can get it at level 9 or earlier, as it's as tough as many of your opponents at that level. But it doesn't scale without other help. What's great at first is OK later, then not so good, and eventually terrible. It's part of why many PC's skip mounts.

... and why I'm researching what i can get with minimal investment.


You can cheese getting your flying mount shot out from under you a little by using a Figurine of Wondrous Power, since those just convert back to statue mode upon 'death.' An Ebony Fly nets 25 hp 3 times a week. That might help you economize in the mid-levels.

Nice. That's great.


Zhentarim Skymage can have some REAL broken mounts after only one level investment. However, being part of an evil and super racist organization is a bit of a cost in itself.

A couple of templates and some of those would do. Potentially 17 hd. Having your mount attack you when you have a bad day would get old.


When messing around with templates don't forget the dungeonbred template to get your critter to a more suitable size if necessary.

A 17 hd large size Yrthak (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yrthak.htm)?


Here are some potential ways to get a flying mount:

PRCs:
Knight of the Flying Hunt lvl1 (ECL8) Pegasus no special bonuses to mount
Moonsea Skysentinel lvl1 (ECL6) dire hawk gains bonuses based on MS lvl
Skylord lvl1 (ECL8) celestial giant eagle, celestial giant owl, or celestial pegasus gains bonuses based on skylord lvl
Aglarondan Griffonrider lvl1 (ECL8) Griffon gains bonuses based on AG lvl
Dragon Rider lvl1 (ECL11) Dragon gains bonuses based on DR lvl

Feats:
Leadership: Griffon at ECL10, Giant Eagle/Giant Owl at ECL6, Pegasus at ECL6
Leadership/Dragon Cohort: Dragons at varying lvl based on table 3-1 of Draconomicon
Animal Companion + Exalted Companion: Asperi 7th (-6), Giant eagle 7th (-6), Giant owl 7th (-6), Pegasus 7th (-6)
Wild Cohort: reference Animal Companion
Beast Totem + Totem Companion + Animal Companion: Chimera 13th (-12), Yrthak 16th(-15)

Animal Companion:
lvl 4: Dire Bat
lvl 7: Sailsnake, Dire Eagle, Dire Hawk
Lvl 10: Dire Vulture, Dragonhawk
lvl 16: Quetzalcoatlus, Roc

Familiar: Hippogriff CL7 (+7BaB)

Special Mount: Drakkensteed, Hippogriff, Griffon, Dire Bat; it is a bit ambiguous how you assign these as your special mount but there are some rules on doing so...


That's a good list, but most either takes dedicated investment, or won't play well at upper levels.

Your not following RoS pg 185 on the Dire Eagle?

The trick I'm seeing is combining wild cohort or Moonsea Skysentinel, with warbeast and Windrider (MoW), which advances whichever mount you choose.

Windrider has a class ability (Appraise Mount (Ex):) that explicitly let's you choose a mount with a +4 above average in a chosen ability. Added to Windrider's other level 1 class ability (Chosen Mount:), and warbeast, we can stack 3 hd, and some ability score increases, which total

3 hd, +4 natural armor, +9 Str, +3 Con, +2 Wis, for a one level dip and a little gp.

On a wild cohort, the windrider 1 warbeast combo reaches 15 hd or mor. On the Skysentinel 1 the combo only reaches 13 hd, but you get a 160+ hp mount for 2 levels and a template.

The Aglarondan griffon is tempting at certain levels, and as a magical beast, it gets full bab. We might throw the Magebred template on that, with Wr and Wb. The total ... 12 hd you can either boost offense or defense, but it won't do past 16th level play without more than the 2 level investment.
Also, Griffonrider specifically says you cannot have another bonded mount.


This goes on the griffon.

Hit Dice: +5
Speed: +10 feet
AC: natural armor +12
Abilities: Str +7, Con +3, Wis +2, +4 any
AND:
Str, Dex or Con +4, and the other two physical +2


Wild cohort and Skysentinel each stack with Windrider and warbeast, and don't exclude. For 2 levels, a feat, and very little gp, one can get both the Dire Hawk with 140 hp, AND the 15+ hd Dire Eagle cohort. Ride the tank, and send the eagle to dive/charge for +23 att, 24 damage.

In fact, you can have both at 7th level.
It sounds like a good use of 2 levels for a solution to a flying mount for an archer. Archery needs levels and feats, and this leaves most of the build open.


I do have some questions though.

[Maat Mons]

Is the flying mount just a way to full attack and move (in 3 dimensions) in the same round? If so, Travel Devotion and a fly speed of your own is another way to achieve the same thing.

[Segev]

A druid cohort who wild shapes into a flying mount for you would have PC-ish hit points.

[bean illus]

Is the flying mount just a way to full attack and move (in 3 dimensions) in the same round? If so, Travel Devotion and a fly speed of your own is another way to achieve the same thing.

Well, a raptoran with travel devo does make a mighty fine swift hunter. I'm thinking of building one.

But travel devo doesn't Spot or flank for you. It certainly doesn't attack with 5d6+11 base damage, or have 160 hp.

So, no. This time I'm looking for good guys, that can fly in antimagic/ etc, and can remain relevant as mundanes til upper levels. I believe a 15th level creature or 2 (or 3-4, if one includes purchasing, etc) can remain useful for quite some time in some campaigns.


A druid cohort who wild shapes into a flying mount for you would have PC-ish hit points.

... and that's why many tables don't use the leadership feat.

[liquidformat]

Your not following RoS pg 185 on the Dire Eagle?

AFB what's the change RoS makes?

[bean illus]

AFB what's the change RoS makes?



Dire Eagles as Animal Companions

A dire eagle may be selected as an animal companion by a druid of 4th level or higher. Treat the Druid as 3 lower than normal for the purpose of determining the companion's characteristics and special abilities.

5d8
10/60 ft. (avg)
+5 natural
2 claws (1d8), bite (1d8)
10/10
Low-light vision
Good Good Poor
Str 20, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Listen +4, Spot +20
Alertness, Flyby Attack
N
6-10 Large
+2 (cohort)


It's pretty cheesy. I think that without it, 15 hd is the most from 1 feat (wild cohort), 1 level (windrider), and cheap n easy template (warbeast).

That's the benchmark I'm using, so far.
Either wild cohort dire eagle warbeast with windrider 1, or dire hawk warbeast with skysentinel 1, and windrider 1, or both.

I'm gonna draw up some stat blocks on the fully developed dire eagle and dire hawk, eagle as offense and hawk as defense, while i wait for any more suggestions.

[Emperor Tippy]

Get an Eternal Wand of Phantom Steed at CL 14. 240 ft. fly speed, lasts 14 hours at a time (so two of the three charges on the Eternal Wand will keep it up 24/7), and if it dies you just re-summon it.

[Segev]

If you can get an Awaken spell cast on a mount, and convince it to continue to serve you, it can take class levels, which will come with hit points and possibly features to help it stay alive.

You might be able to talk your DM into letting you train an unawakened animal in a class, too, but that is pretty iffy.

[Jack_Simth]

If you can get an Awaken spell cast on a mount, and convince it to continue to serve you, it can take class levels, which will come with hit points and possibly features to help it stay alive.

You might be able to talk your DM into letting you train an unawakened animal in a class, too, but that is pretty iffy.

Do note this has a drawback: Any non-bonded creature that accompanies you and levels up? They're soaking a share of the XP. You'll level more slowly as a result.

[Segev]

Do note this has a drawback: Any non-bonded creature that accompanies you and levels up? They're soaking a share of the XP. You'll level more slowly as a result.

Probably not that big of a deal, and may even be a boon to a degree to the DM. The DM can always add an extra monster or two if it is a problem. After all, you're getting an extra character, essentially, this way. Action economy is king.

[Rebel7284]

A couple of templates and some of those would do. Potentially 17 hd. Having your mount attack you when you have a bad day would get old.

Charisma damage is fairly rare, and eventually you can get Soulfire Armor/Buckler to become immune to it. That and a few contingent spells to prevent Charisma penalties.
I guess if you have a +Charisma item and walk into an AMF, that can be a problem.
No to say that the risk can ever be reduced to 0, but it can be reduced greatly with some foresight and gives you potentially a REAL powerful Flying mount in return.

[liquidformat]

Do note this has a drawback: Any non-bonded creature that accompanies you and levels up? They're soaking a share of the XP. You'll level more slowly as a result.

Isn't that why you make it your cohort? Also having something like a an awakened warbeast magebred crusader dire eagle does sound pretty awesome, and on a side note Warbeast plus awakened does increase the size of the dire eagle which is amusing and may or may not be useful.

[Calthropstu]

Airwalk does this fairly well. An item casting this x times per day would do much better than a wing graft etc because it's a 1 time purchase, is relevant to both you and the mount and if your mount is killed, simply replacing the mount does not cost you 10s of thousands.

If you must have a special mount, I recommend wyvern or roc. A typical wyvern is relevant ip til level 10, a roc can be competitive until lvl 15.

Putting wings on a beefy land monster seems cool, but maintaining it at high levels will be difficult. A wail of the banshee spell and you are out a hefty chunk. And that is if it is allowed. A lot of gms don't allow purchase of dinosaurs due to setting restrictions.

[liquidformat]

Airwalk does this fairly well. An item casting this x times per day would do much better than a wing graft etc because it's a 1 time purchase, is relevant to both you and the mount and if your mount is killed, simply replacing the mount does not cost you 10s of thousands.

If you must have a special mount, I recommend wyvern or roc. A typical wyvern is relevant ip til level 10, a roc can be competitive until lvl 15.

Putting wings on a beefy land monster seems cool, but maintaining it at high levels will be difficult. A wail of the banshee spell and you are out a hefty chunk. And that is if it is allowed. A lot of gms don't allow purchase of dinosaurs due to setting restrictions.

Another nice thing about Wyverns is with one rhd they become huge and with 4 they become gargantuan which can be pretty good investment.

[Segev]

Another nice thing about Wyverns is with one rhd they become huge and with 4 they become gargantuan which can be pretty good investment.

Depends on your use case. Good luck fitting that in a dungeon.

One sometimes-overlooked benefit of being a Small race is that you can ride Medium mounts, and ride them into any dungeon your Medium fellow-PCs are adventuring in. There are Medium flying mounts, too!

[liquidformat]

Depends on your use case. Good luck fitting that in a dungeon.

One sometimes-overlooked benefit of being a Small race is that you can ride Medium mounts, and ride them into any dungeon your Medium fellow-PCs are adventuring in. There are Medium flying mounts, too!

very true, that is one of the reasons halfling outriders on riding dogs are great

[Maat Mons]

If you're a small character, and one of the other PCs is medium-size and can fly, you can have him carry you on his shoulders.

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't that why you make it your cohort?If you've made it into your cohort, it is no longer a "non-bonded creature" - it is bonded to your character through the Leadership feat.

[Calthropstu]

If you've made it into your cohort, it is no longer a "non-bonded creature" - it is bonded to your character through the Leadership feat.

At no point does a cohort count as bonded.

[Fouredged Sword]

Depends on your use case. Good luck fitting that in a dungeon.

One sometimes-overlooked benefit of being a Small race is that you can ride Medium mounts, and ride them into any dungeon your Medium fellow-PCs are adventuring in. There are Medium flying mounts, too!

Shrink collars exist for a reason. For whenever you need your large creature to fit in the overhead luggage bin.

[Jack_Simth]

At no point does a cohort count as bonded.
If it is tied to you via Leadership as a cohort, it is mechanically bonded to your character for advancement. It doesn't gain an ability that says "Bonded", but it is thereafter defined as loyal to you by one of your character's mechanical abilities, and it's advancement is directly tied to yours by the same. What do you think I meant by bonded?

[ayvango]

The best flying mount I had encountered is nightmare skeleton. 6HD means 25x6=150 gp cost. Flying speed 90' with good maneuverability. Undead need no rest and could run for indefinite long periods.

But your need the Animate Dead spell which ranger has no access to. But it is alright. The Planar Touchtone feat (catalogues of enlightenment version) gives access to domain spells for 3 times. Animate Dead is on a domain spell list: you could choose between Death and Undeath.

[Calthropstu]

If it is tied to you via Leadership as a cohort, it is mechanically bonded to your character for advancement. It doesn't gain an ability that says "Bonded", but it is thereafter defined as loyal to you by one of your character's mechanical abilities, and it's advancement is directly hindered to yours by the same. What do you think I meant by bonded?

They don't gain xp as you do unless they are physically with you. Many gms link them, but they don't mechanically via the game. In fact, they are supposed to split xp with the party, not just you.

The only link they have is loyalty. No other game mechanic is linked to you except limiting advancement.

Wait a sec. Lol, the cohort isn't bound to loyalty. It STARTS loyal when you initially attract them. But nothing says it STAYS loyal.

Edit: Edit wasn't clear fixing. It does gain xp with you though. Above on xp was incorrect.

[Jack_Simth]

They don't gain xp as you do unless they are physically with you. Many gms link them, but they don't mechanically via the game. In fact, they are supposed to split xp with the party, not just you.

The only link they have is loyalty. No other game mechanic is linked to you except limiting advancement.

Wait a sec. Lol, the cohort isn't bound to loyalty. It STARTS loyal when you initially attract them. But nothing says it STAYS loyal.

It does gain xp with you though.
... where are you looking? I don't seem to be seeing what you're seeing.


Leadership [General]
Prerequisite

Character level 6th.
Benefits

Having this feat enables the character to attract loyal companions and devoted followers, subordinates who assist her. See the table below for what sort of cohort and how many followers the character can recruit.
Leadership Score

A character’s base Leadership score equals his level plus any Charisma modifier. In order to take into account negative Charisma modifiers, this table allows for very low Leadership scores, but the character must still be 6th level or higher in order to gain the Leadership feat. Outside factors can affect a character’s Leadership score, as detailed above.
Cohort Level

The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own.

Cohorts earn XP as follows:

The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.

Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).

Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.

If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.
Number of Followers by Level

The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat.

Followers don’t earn experience and thus don’t gain levels. However, when a character with Leadership attains a new level, the player consults the table above to determine if she has acquired more followers, some of which may be higher level than the existing followers. (You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience on their own.)
Leadership Modifiers

Several factors can affect a character’s Leadership score, causing it to vary from the base score (character level + Cha modifier). A character’s reputation (from the point of view of the cohort or follower he is trying to attract) raises or lowers his Leadership score, see Table: Reputation.

Other modifiers may apply when the character tries to attract a cohort, see Table: Attracting Cohorts.

Followers have different priorities from cohorts. When the character tries to attract a new follower, use any of the modifiers that apply on Table: Attracting Followers.

"They don't gain xp as you do unless they are physically with you" - I'm not seeing that in the entry. Where do you see it?
"they are supposed to split xp with the party, not just you" - I'm seeing a quite explicit "The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP." - also many references to the PC's xp total. What are you seeing?

[Calthropstu]

... where are you looking? I don't seem to be seeing what you're seeing.


"They don't gain xp as you do unless they are physically with you" - I'm not seeing that in the entry. Where do you see it?
"they are supposed to split xp with the party, not just you" - I'm seeing a quite explicit "The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP." - also many references to the PC's xp total. What are you seeing?

I corrected in an edit see last line. I reedited the last line calling myself out as incorrect. It was a houserule my old gm used.

But I am correct on the loyalty. You recruit them as loyal. But nothing forces them to STAY loyal.

[Jack_Simth]

I corrected in an edit see last line. I reedited the last line calling myself out as incorrect. It was a houserule my old gm used.

But I am correct on the loyalty. You recruit them as loyal. But nothing forces them to STAY loyal.

Yes, I'm sure you could drive away a cohort. Sort of like an abused animal companion. They're still bonded to you via mechanical means once you've successfully made them a Leadership Cohort until such time as you do, though.

[Efrate]

Lesser planar bind a nightmare. HP doesn't matter much because Astral projection for it and its rider. Make sure your alignment is south of neutral for best benefits so no trip to the lower planes, though it's very conceivable to work that into an agreement. Gotta pay someone or have a wizard buddy but makes both of you pretty functionally unkillable. Free action -2 each turn is pretty good as well, and upgrade it with gpb to cauchumare when that becomes reasonable via wbl. Very doable with a wizard cohort.

Also for style low levels if not for combat there are the sand twisters from sandstorm. Makes a hell of an entrance when you step out of your own personal sand tornado.

[Quertus]

My favorite mount is an eternal wand of command undead. Undead make the best mounts. Kill a dragon, or hire someone to POA a corpse into the desired dragon corpse. Hire a necromancer to raise it as a zombie dragon. Equip it with a shrinking collar from the A&EG. Now you have a full strength zombie dragon that's obedient to your will. Wear it like a backpack. You now have a breath weapon shooting jetpack that can fly you 300ft a round without using your action.

Don't forget to give it +6 HP per HD through the corpse crafter line + desecrate at a temple. Really sturdy, really cheap flying mount.

Heck, with just one wand, you've probably got mounts for the whole party!


I suppose i should have said 'good or neutral alignment'.

That *may* limit your options. But not much for mounts directly.


Do note this has a drawback: Any non-bonded creature that accompanies you and levels up? They're soaking a share of the XP. You'll level more slowly as a result.

That's one of the selling points! If you don't spend money on it, you're now getting more gold per XP, and will be stronger than your level indicates, more easily handling level-appropriate challenges. If you do spend money on it, you're not falling behind the curve, and you're ahead on action economy. Win/win!

[Calthropstu]

Don't forget to give it +6 HP per HD through the corpse crafter line + desecrate at a temple. Really sturdy, really cheap flying mount.

Heck, with just one wand, you've probably got mounts for the whole party!



That *may* limit your options. But not much for mounts directly.



That's one of the selling points! If you don't spend money on it, you're now getting more gold per XP, and will be stronger than your level indicates, more easily handling level-appropriate challenges. If you do spend money on it, you're not falling behind the curve, and you're ahead on action economy. Win/win!

Sorry, I am not rewriting a module or editing my own hard work to accomadate this kind of munchkinry. If you want to throw extra bodies at the enemies? Fine, it's a valid tactic. If you then want me to rework the campaign so you will have better resources down the line, and not have tougher fights because you are underleveled due to this strategy? No.

[Maat Mons]

Modules try to anticipate what level players will be when they get to certain parts. But player agency routinely foils this. It doesn't have to be bringing along creatures to split xp with. Sometimes the module designers will say "Okay, the players will spend levels 1-4 in Town A, and then be level 5 when they get to Town B." And then the players will, at level 1 say "Hey, let's head over to Town B!"

There isn't any non-meta-game-y way to prevent players from getting off track. You can straight-up tell them "That's a level 5 area, you're not supposed to go there yet." If you just try to have an inn-keeper, or whoever, say "That area is dangerous." the PCs might go "Sounds like an adventure hook. Clearly that's where we're supposed to go. But I think the potential for derailment is actually the major strength of pen & paper RPGs over video game RPGs. The idea that there are places you're "supposed" to go or not "supposed" to go is itself very meta-game-y.

Moreover, this whole idea that there is some preexisting track for players and their characters to follow, while necessary in video games, really undermines the "roleplaying" part of "Role-Playing Game." The characters sure aren't going to say to themselves, "Let's do this in an unnecessarily difficult and dangerous way, because we know what xp is, and we know that we're predestined to face tougher enemies soon." So why should the players say "Let's do this the hard way, so we get more xp, because we know the module is going to put us up against higher-level enemies soon?"

[Efrate]

Sorry, I am not rewriting a module or editing my own hard work to accomadate this kind of munchkinry. If you want to throw extra bodies at the enemies? Fine, it's a valid tactic. If you then want me to rework the campaign so you will have better resources down the line, and not have tougher fights because you are underleveled due to this strategy? No.

Summoned or created monsters, or bound monsters, do not take xp or resources iirc. The pcs get same experience if undead do the dirty work. Same as if a fighters dancing sword gets a kill.

[Calthropstu]

Summoned or created monsters, or bound monsters, do not take xp or resources iirc. The pcs get same experience if undead do the dirty work. Same as if a fighters dancing sword gets a kill.

I will have to look into undead. Summoned and bound as class abilities yes. But I don't think anything says what happens if undead the necro creates kills stuff. It may not even happen at all.

Edit. There is nothing. Nothing I can findvsays anything on the matter. Undead are controlled by you, can't gain xp but are not bonded to you. So, near as I can tell, they follow the rules for hirelings, but the xp they would get assigned just disappears into the void. Maybe that's why necromancy is evil? It is feeding xp to the negative energy plane?

Hmmm. I like this. The negative energy plane is now sentient and malevolent in my universe and eats xp via the undead that it fuels.

[Segev]

Hmmm. I like this. The negative energy plane is now sentient and malevolent in my universe and eats xp via the undead that it fuels.

Oh no! Somebody didn't defeat the BBEG in Return to the Tomb of Horrors! :smalleek:


More seriously, I think they're not "bonded" but are instead just...spell effects. They're yours. You're the participant, not them as independent entities.

Of course, most DMs I know only divide XP with NPCs if the NPCs are "recruited" via means other than personal PC mechanics.

[Fouredged Sword]

Oh no! Somebody didn't defeat the BBEG in Return to the Tomb of Horrors! :smalleek:


More seriously, I think they're not "bonded" but are instead just...spell effects. They're yours. You're the participant, not them as independent entities.

Of course, most DMs I know only divide XP with NPCs if the NPCs are "recruited" via means other than personal PC mechanics.
Yeah, this. You don't give summons a cut of the EXP from a combat encounter. This applies to things you get with WBL as well. You don't give the giant fly you get from a wonderous figurine a cut of the exp.

You also don't give a horse a cut of the EXP, even if it's a level 1 adventure and the fighter's heavy warhorse has HD equal to the rest of the party.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, this. You don't give summons a cut of the EXP from a combat encounter. This applies to things you get with WBL as well. You don't give the giant fly you get from a wonderous figurine a cut of the exp.

You also don't give a horse a cut of the EXP, even if it's a level 1 adventure and the fighter's heavy warhorse has HD equal to the rest of the party.

Actually, nothing says you DON'T give the wonderous figurine xp...
There is rules for pets though. Does the figurine count as a pet?