Just bellyaching about race design

[Phhase]

Nothing really important, I just wanted to post the following grumble:


Warforged: Literally a magic robot with no living biology or organs. Only resistant to poison and the poisoned status effect.

Yuan Ti: Vague venom theming due to great grandfather 15 times removed possibly being a garter snake iunno. A fully biological creature with normal organs prone to maladies of the flesh. Fully immune to all poison and the poisoned status effect. AND has one of the best features to boot: Magic Resistance.

Why. Why they gotta do my machine boys like that. :smallfrown:

Anyway, /rant.

[Mastikator]

Warforged are made of living material though. Otherwise cure wounds wouldn't do jack for them.

Let's not ignore that warforged get disease immunity, sentry rest, immunity to sleep, You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe and a free stacking +1 AC which is pretty rare.

[Waazraath]

Warforged are made of living material though. Otherwise cure wounds wouldn't do jack for them.

Let's not ignore that warforged get disease immunity, sentry rest, immunity to sleep, You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe and a free stacking +1 AC which is pretty rare.

3.x was imo better in this regard. It had its own subtype (living construct) with more immunities that would fit a man of wood and metal including poison immunity, but also only half positive effect from healing spells. That is too detailed for 5e though. I think that giving a warforged all the benefits that would seem more or less 'logical' for a robot-like creature, it would make it unbalanced compared to other races (unless additional disadvantages were added, but I don't think the community likes that, see the flak for orcs and kobolds with negative stat modifiers in their first incarnation).

[Phhase]

Warforged are made of living material though. Otherwise cure wounds wouldn't do jack for them.

Let's not ignore that warforged get disease immunity, sentry rest, immunity to sleep, You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe and a free stacking +1 AC which is pretty rare.

Living material could mean anything. Even living metal. Either way, it seems a bit ludicrous. Disease Immunity. Woohoo. Don't need to worry about mummies anymore I guess. Out of all the rest, only the effective waterbreathing/nobreath is, I think, really worth much. In 90% of campaigns, eating and drinking isn't really an issue, and plenty of other races and class features allow for resting while watching. AC, admittedly, is ok though. It's not something I'd miss in exchange for a proper take though.


That is too detailed for 5e though. I think that giving a warforged all the benefits that would seem more or less 'logical' for a robot-like creature, it would make it unbalanced compared to other races (unless additional disadvantages were added, but I don't think the community likes that).

See, this is where I disagree. A little more detail would, I think go a long way here. Besides, as far as unbalanced goes, I personally, wouldn't mind a commensurate malus. And even without a malus, the fact that Yuan-Ti gets to have it and gravy besides just makes no sense to me. If that's allowed, why not this?

[Amnestic]

Living material could mean anything. Even living metal.

Okay but we do know what they're made of:

The warforged are made of stone, metal and wood fibres. The core of a warforged is a skeletal frame made of metal and stone with wood fibres acting as a muscular system. Covering the warforged is an outer shell of metal and stone plates. An internal network of tubes run through the warforged's body, these tubes are filled with an alchemical blood-like fluid that is designed to lubricate and nourish their systems.

Like I'm not necessarily against the idea that they should have poison immunity (because they did, originally) but realistically it's not hard to explain why they don't have it in the narrative. The poison affects their wooden fibres and/or "blood-like fluid".

Yuan-Ti Purebloods are generally viewed as being 'overpowered' so I'm not sure they should be your baseline. Grung also have poison immunity, but they're rarely considered super powerful. They're fine, mind you, but not top of the pack or anything like that.

[Morty]

When it comes to races in 5E, "design" might be a strong word. Throwing some features at the wall, seeing what sticks and rolling with it if it looks mostly alright seems to be a better description of the process. And giving everyone and their uncle poison resistance/immunity but without any consistency has a long and storied tradition.

[Gurgeh]

AC, admittedly, is ok though. It's not something I'd miss in exchange for a proper take though.
The AC bonus is unconditional and stacks with everything. Any character build will benefit from it; squishy backliners will be that bit less squishy, frontline damage dealers will get better endurance, and characters who make a point of boosting their AC as high as they can will get even better.

I'm with Amnestic - the Yuan-Ti are overtuned and don't really deserve what they have, but the 5e Warforgded package is still very attractive.

[Dr. Cliché]

I get where you're coming from. As a general rule, though, I'm rather leery about races and such that seem to be defined primarily by what they're immune to.

I say this because, with occasional exceptions, immunities tend to remove roleplaying opportunities.



Living material could mean anything. Even living metal. Either way, it seems a bit ludicrous. Disease Immunity. Woohoo. Don't need to worry about mummies anymore I guess.

Which is odd to me as I would think Mummy Rot would be more likely to be able to affect a Warforged (you might not be able to poison wood fibres but surely they can still rot?). :smalltongue:

[JackPhoenix]

What, you never heard of weedkillers? Of course plants can be poisoned. And warforged bodies aren't just made from any random lumber, their wooden components are alive.

[Dienekes]

Warforged are made of living material though. Otherwise cure wounds wouldn't do jack for them.

I enjoy the implication that cure wounds can heal trees.

[JackPhoenix]

I enjoy the implication that cure wounds can heal trees.

Of course it can. Treants, animated trees and blights don't have anything suggesting they can't be healed.

[Mastikator]

I enjoy the implication that cure wounds can heal trees.

Plants that count as creatures absolutely are healed by cure wounds. My point was that warforged are not mere constructs which are not healed by Cure Wounds.

[Waazraath]

See, this is where I disagree. A little more detail would, I think go a long way here. Besides, as far as unbalanced goes, I personally, wouldn't mind a commensurate malus. And even without a malus, the fact that Yuan-Ti gets to have it and gravy besides just makes no sense to me. If that's allowed, why not this?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I personally wouldn't mind some extra detail and depth, nor do I mind penalties. But from the design filosophy of fifth, I understand this is where they ended up with Warforged.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why. Why they gotta do my machine boys like that. :smallfrown:
An attempt at "balance."
(PS: I do not allow yuan ti as a PC race)

[Sergeantbrother]

The thing about yuan-ti that seems out of place for me is the magic resistance. Not only is it extremely powerful but doesn't really fit the theme of snake people.

They don't really need to be immune to poison either, snakes aren't immune to poison, but since they have a magical connection to poison and venom it's at least thematic and not overpowered in and of itself.

[Dork_Forge]

The Yuan-Ti were a case of 'they're optional monster races, that looks alright' so balance was eh, but comparing them to the Warforged: Yuan-Ti stats suck, Warforged are awesome and have more widely applicable benefits.

Tasha's changes that a bit... but that's why they're optional rules

[Segev]

The Yuan-Ti were a case of 'they're optional monster races, that looks alright' so balance was eh, but comparing them to the Warforged: Yuan-Ti stats suck, Warforged are awesome and have more widely applicable benefits.

Tasha's changes that a bit... but that's why they're optional rules

What? No! Tasha's optional racial rules don't unbalance anything, because it was never a big deal what stats were coupled to what racial features. Classes having to make trade-offs of ideal stats and ideal racial features is irrelevant, which is why it's so important that you permit any race to take any class by removing the barrier of non-ideal stat mods, which aren't a factor in balancing races at all!

More seriously, yeah, Yuan-ti are a bit over the top even without TCE's optional rules.

[Grod_The_Giant]

When it comes to races in 5E, "design" might be a strong word. Throwing some features at the wall, seeing what sticks and rolling with it if it looks mostly alright seems to be a better description of the process.
Fixed that for you.

[PhantomSoul]

See, this is where I disagree. A little more detail would, I think go a long way here. Besides, as far as unbalanced goes, I personally, wouldn't mind a commensurate malus. And even without a malus, the fact that Yuan-Ti gets to have it and gravy besides just makes no sense to me. If that's allowed, why not this?

Finding a table where Yuan-Ti (as written) are allowed as a player race even when other "monstrous PCs" are is seemingly not easy. (With good reason -- it's a way to offset failed design decisions and failed balance in general.)


EDIT:


Fixed that for you.

I appreciate that you correctly didn't use blue text!

[Dork_Forge]

I'll just throw this out there, where the game is currently at, the Yuan-Ti are just on the stronger said of 'meh' assuming you keep the stats as is.

The primary features are entirely dependent on the encounter composition, you could a long time not dealing with poison damage or getting targeted by spellcasters etc. Magic Resistance is very powerful in certain games, and with the release of the strictly more broadly powerful Satyr, the Yuan-Ti isn't the gasping point it once was.

[Segev]

I'll just throw this out there, where the game is currently at, the Yuan-Ti are just on the stronger said of 'meh' assuming you keep the stats as is.

The primary features are entirely dependent on the encounter composition, you could a long time not dealing with poison damage or getting targeted by spellcasters etc. Magic Resistance is very powerful in certain games, and with the release of the strictly more broadly powerful Satyr, the Yuan-Ti isn't the gasping point it once was.

Not sure this logic holds on its own. "Now everything is weak compared to the Satyr, so yuan-ti being the only thing that roughly keeps up makes them more middle-of-the-road!" isn't very convincing. If you want to take that position, then supporting bolstering other, older races would be consistent, since they're falling further and further behind.

[Dork_Forge]

Not sure this logic holds on its own. "Now everything is weak compared to the Satyr, so yuan-ti being the only thing that roughly keeps up makes them more middle-of-the-road!" isn't very convincing. If you want to take that position, then supporting bolstering other, older races would be consistent, since they're falling further and further behind.

I compared the Yuan-Ti to the Satyr, not everything else, because they're the only two Magic Resistance classes.

Where you take it to doesn't make sense, because the PHB races are not weak and falling behind across the board. V. Human, Half Elf, Halfling stand out, but Dwarves easily hold their own as do the original varieties of Elf and so on.

What I wanted to get at was that Magic Resistance and Poison Immunity are entirely at the DM's discretion and easily irrelevant. The Satyr on the otherhand gets enough generally applicable abilities that if Magic Resistance doesn't apply it's not as big a deal.

[Phhase]

What I wanted to get at was that Magic Resistance and Poison Immunity are entirely at the DM's discretion and easily irrelevant.
Yes, of course. That's everything, though. And discretion or not, magical effects and poison damage are everywhere, and I think it'd take a concerted effort to make them completely irrelevant.

[Amnestic]

The Satyr on the otherhand gets enough generally applicable abilities that if Magic Resistance doesn't apply it's not as big a deal.

I think the chance of coming across a creature that is vulnerable to Suggestion is much more likely than needing an extra d8 feet on your jump or dealing 1d4 instead of 1 damage on an unarmed strike.

Yuan-Ti also get darkvision, which Satyrs do not. I don't think Satyrs are bad by any stretch, but you're definitely overplaying them as superior to Yuan-Ti.

The fey type isn't that important, especially if you're somehow in a game where magic resistance isn't coming up at all.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes, of course. That's everything, though. And discretion or not, magical effects and poison damage are everywhere, and I think it'd take a concerted effort to make them completely irrelevant.

Magical effects that require a save and are actually labelled as magical are actually easily avoided accidentally. A Paladin in one of my games has a Holy Avenger, so it comes up quite regularly where I need to read something closer to determine if it's magical or not, and often... it isn't.

Likewise with poison, of all the non-BPS types it's probably the most common, but there's more creatures without poison than with.

A monster I've used a fair bit with a status effect is a Ghoul and the paralysis it imparts is neither magical nor poison. If a non-Green dragon breathes on a Yuan-Ti, they're as screwed as anyone else.


I think the chance of coming across a creature that is vulnerable to Suggestion is much more likely than needing an extra d8 feet on your jump or dealing 1d4 instead of 1 damage on an unarmed strike.

Yuan-Ti also get darkvision, which Satyrs do not. I don't think Satyrs are bad by any stretch, but you're definitely overplaying them as superior to Yuan-Ti.

The fey type isn't that important, especially if you're somehow in a game where magic resistance isn't coming up at all.

I was more thinking about their higher movement speed, better secondary stat, and proficiencies. The horns and Mirthful Leaps are just a bit excessive ribbons really.

The Yuan-Ti's casting is mostly flavour, Poison Spray is pretty bad, Animal Friendship targeting only snakes? Yeah flavour, and Suggestion is nice, but is also once per day and fairly niche imo.

And I want to clarify: I never meant nor said Magic Resistance will never come up at all, but you can easily go long stretches where it won't be relevant and it's a very easy thing to deal with as a DM. I don't think any PC race should have had it, but we're here so dealing with it isn't so rough.

[PhantomSoul]

Magical effects that require a save and are actually labelled as magical are actually easily avoided accidentally. A Paladin in one of my games has a Holy Avenger, so it comes up quite regularly where I need to read something closer to determine if it's magical or not, and often... it isn't.

Likewise with poison, of all the non-BPS types it's probably the most common, but there's more creatures without poison than with.

A monster I've used a fair bit with a status effect is a Ghoul and the paralysis it imparts is neither magical nor poison. If a non-Green dragon breathes on a Yuan-Ti, they're as screwed as anyone else.

I dunno, even if the DM manages to never use Spells and Magical Effects, you might still find yourself in the middle of an Ally's Fireball... (And I think banning ever fighting a Spellcaster, assassins and swathes of monsters to make Magic Resistance and Immunity to a common damage type irrelevant constitutes such a large change on the DM's part that it effectively shows how potent the ability is!)

But either way, adding a second outlier doesn't change that the first one was an outlier. Add enough outliers and you change the baseline such that the original norm is comparatively bad to the new one. (That's a point that goes against the idea of needing to go beyond original potency ranges for something to be powercreep, yes.) Neither aspect changes that Satyrs aren't making Yuan-Ti any less (overly) powerful relative to prior Races.

[Dork_Forge]

I dunno, even if the DM manages to never use Spells and Magical Effects, you might still find yourself in the middle of an Ally's Fireball... (And I think banning ever fighting a Spellcaster, assassins and swathes of monsters to make Magic Resistance and Immunity to a common damage type irrelevant constitutes such a large change on the DM's part that it effectively shows how potent the ability is!)

But either way, adding a second outlier doesn't change that the first one was an outlier. Add enough outliers and you change the baseline such that the original norm is comparatively bad to the new one. (That's a point that goes against the idea of needing to go beyond original potency ranges for something to be powercreep, yes.) Neither aspect changes that Satyrs aren't making Yuan-Ti any less (overly) powerful relative to prior Races.

Again, not completely banning anything... It's perfectly natural to go stretches without those things unless your campaign has a theme that makes them prevalent.

For example if you play lost mines, Magic Resistance will be relevant... but not until the Redbrand Hideout, and even then the majority of that dungeon is nonmagical and (I think) has zero poison in it. Even when you get to the mage at the end they can just blast you with Magic Missile (as happened every time I've played it and ran it).

The overland encounters? Not a single poisonous creature or magical effect.

Venomfang is less dangerous is you deal with his breath, and I believe this is intent for a starter kit, but the cmelee attacks are still nasty.

Spiders? No poison, but it won't help you against the webs...

And all of the twig blight and ash zombie encounters inbetween? Yeah....

You don't have to try to avoid these things, it'll often just happen unless your themes include poisonous creatures or a lot of evil casters.

And I agree about outliers and powercreep, and I don't think that Magic Resistance should have been a race ability, and any damage immunity shouldn't be a race ability. My point was that with bad stats and the OP ones being situational, they're good just not omg break my game good.

[Greywander]

Magic Resistance is a bit overstated. First of all, enemy spellcasters won't actually be that common, unless your DM just loves to use them. Not that they'll never appear, it just won't be a regular thing. Incidentally, this is also why the Abjurer wizard's traits as well as the Ancients paladin's aura are also a bit overvalued, particularly since those only apply to spells, and not other magical effects. And when you do encounter a spellcaster, you'll be really glad to have any of these features, just understand that this will be fairly rare.

Magic Resistance also extends beyond spells and into any magical effect. This does include things like the basilisk's gaze, but not things like dragon breath. So it will be a bit hit or miss. Again, when it does apply, you'll be happy to have it, but this might crop up less often than you may expect.

I think the real reason why Magic Resistance is so highly valued is because it's about the closest thing you can get to blanket advantage on all saves. It does cover a broad swathe of saves, but not all of them. There's also the vedalken, who get advantage on all mental saves (magic or not), but non-magical mental saves are actually quite rare; most non-magical saves are going to be physical saves, e.g. DEX saves. There's not a lot of ways to get blanket advantage on saves; vedalken is one, barbarians get advantage on all DEX saves, provided they're not blinded or deafened, and there's an epic boon for advantage on all CON saves. I think that's it. Some races offer advantage against specific effects, such as charm or fear.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, warforged aren't exactly typical robots, like you might see in a sci-fi B movie. They're made at least partly of wood, and thus contain biological components. It's a bit strange they're not constructs, but this would prevent most healing spells from affecting them (an issue I've had to deal with for my homebrew undead race). Warforged are actually a pretty solid race, a great pick even pre-Tasha's for just about any class.

Yuan-ti are a monster race. I don't think they're supposed to be balanced, per se, as they're meant to be optional. I think people also overstate how strong they are. Even when yuan-tis are allowed, people still play other races, which is a sign they're not OP. Magic Resistance is nice, poison immunity is nice, but what else do they have? Darkvision and 1/day Suggestion, and a couple very niche snake-themed spells. Not weak, for sure, but not so powerful you'd never play anything else.

There's also a magic item that gives poison immunity that doesn't require attunement. If there's a magic mart in your campaign, you can get poison immunity for the whole party, otherwise without a magic mart getting any specific magic item can be tricky, but not necessarily impossible.