CR for CR weakest and strongest enemies?

[Tarasque_man]

To explain I'm not asking what the single strongest enemy in the game is. I'm more asking to see what people feel like is the strongest and weakest monsters for what their CR is. To explain I'd say CR for CR intellect devourers are worse than a tarrasque, not since they're stronger but that the intellect devourers are CR 2 but if you swapped most other CR 2 monster for an intellect devourer in an encounter the encounter becomes a lot harder. The tarrasque doesn't really have that compared to other CR 30s like tiamat and such.

So I guess what are some monsters you guys feel are quite a bit more powerful or quite a bit weaker than what their CR suggests?

[stoutstien]

CR is so wishy washy to begin with it's hard to say. Anything that drains ability scores,has a save or suck/die effect, or has a way of corpse stealing to prevent reviving would be up there just by the nature of RNG.

[Dalinar]

Pixie. All it's gotta do is win initiative and cast Polymorph.

[verbatim]

I think the CR 5 Star Spawn Mangler deserves mention:

+7 stealth
40 speed
advantage on anyone who hasn't taken a turn in combat yet
recharge move that let's you move another 40 feet (avoiding OA's) and make 6 melee attacks (1d8 + 4) against one target that do an extra 2d6 (psychic) if you have advantage



If a Mangler jumps your party with surprise...
a level 5 wizard with 14 CON has 32 hp, assuming average damage rolls they will go down in 3 hits, at which point the DM has to also target the downed creature with the remaining hits.

On the other end of the spectrum a level 5 barbarian with 14 CON has 50 hp and on average goes down in 4 hits (5 hits if you had rage up before the fight started?).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Strongest: CR 4 Banshee. That Wail is just scary as heck AOE; if a couple of characters fail their save things can go south in a hurry. And between the Detect Life and Incorporeal Movement they can legitimately get surprise to get the ability off before the party even knows what's going on.

In our last campaign where by mid tier 2 my group had already dispatched of one CR 18 monster (with CR 7 allies) the party would fill their pants when I'd have a couple of Banshees show up with a little back up. The Oathbreaker Paladin was starting to go out of his way to make sure his controlled undead included a Banshee so he could give me (the DM) back some of my own medicine. I believe he coined the phrase, "Banshee bomb" to describe sending a Banshee through the floor, walls, or whatever to start combat with a bang (or a Wail).

[KorvinStarmast]

Strongest: CR 4 Banshee. That Wail is just scary as heck AOE; if a couple of characters fail their save things can go south in a hurry. And between the Detect Life and Incorporeal Movement they can legitimately get surprise to get the ability off before the party even knows what's going on.

In our last campaign where by mid tier 2 my group had already dispatched of one CR 18 monster (with CR 7 allies) the party would fill their pants when I'd have a couple of Banshees show up with a little back up. The Oathbreaker Paladin was starting to go out of his way to make sure his controlled undead included a Banshee so he could give me (the DM) back some of my own medicine. I believe he coined the phrase, "Banshee bomb" to describe sending a Banshee through the floor, walls, or whatever to start combat with a bang (or a Wail). Banshee plus some specters nearly took out the party, at level 4. It was a near run thing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm going to call out Shadows (CR 1/2) and Wererats (CR 2) here.

Shadows might only have 16 hp, but they've got resistances out the wazoo, and their attacks can easily kill the party mage. Remember, these are first level opponents (technically, you'd need multiple to be CR 1), and with good rolls or a crit they can take down an 8 Str character in a single hit. And even for those beefy 16 Str fighters, losing a quarter of your strength leads to a bad spiral.

Wererats fall into that little space perfectly where you can't expect to have a magical weapon (and you're a level too early for subclasses that would grant them or magic weapon), and nobody packs a silvered weapon. Then you remember that they have total immunity to B/P/S that doesn't fall into that category. Unless you've got an Artificer (or a Bladepact warlock) you're in for a rough time. Are they as bad as Intellect Devourers? No, but they're not bears either.

[Zuras]

Anything with a high Offensive CR, low Defensive CR, and decent initiative has an outsized chance to mess up a party. Creatures with powerful offensive abilities that force Int saves are generally the nastiest.

Intellect Devourers, the CR 2 creature that remains scary at Tier 4, is the worst offender. The Mind Flayer’s CR of 7 is comparatively accurate, but because it’s so offensively weighted the initiative roll can be the difference between a near TPK and a speed bump encounter.

Banshees, as mentioned, are quite nasty for CR 4, as is anything that can force save or be incapacitated effects for multiple PCs with its action, or kill PCs immediately rather than knocking them out and allowing for healing. Beholder Zombies are probably the worst offender without an AoE or Int save. I have seen more Tier 2 PCs killed by them than any other method, as a couple lucky rolls on the d4 (because activating the disintegrate ray is *random*) can spell doom for PCs with bad Dex saves.

Thugs are really tough for their 1/2 CR against low level parties, and Giant Badgers and Velociraptors are also above the curve. Basically anything with multi attack below CR 1 is above the CR curve because it gives you more chances for the DM to get lucky rolls.

Anything that attacks stats instead of HP is also scary. Intellect Devourers and Shadows are the most unbalanced, but a few Shadow Assassins can legitimately scare low Str Tier 4 characters despite being only CR 9.

[MaxWilson]

Wererats fall into that little space perfectly where you can't expect to have a magical weapon (and you're a level too early for subclasses that would grant them or magic weapon), and nobody packs a silvered weapon. Then you remember that they have total immunity to B/P/S that doesn't fall into that category. Unless you've got an Artificer (or a Bladepact warlock) you're in for a rough time. Are they as bad as Intellect Devourers? No, but they're not bears either.

Meh. One of my first experiences as a player in 5E was with wererats. I had Expeditious Retreat but I didn't need it, I just kited it to death with Chill Touch without ever getting in melee range. The DM tried a cheap trick of having it fake death--I say it was cheap because I attacked it a couple more times, and then it tried to come back to life anyway and attack me or something after I set the house on fire to burn its corpse, and I just plain don't believe it really had that many HP, I think the DM was cheating to make it more "dramatic".

I don't remember why it never got within melee range even when the house was on fire, but regardless my plan was to break contact via Expeditious Retreat if necessary, so it wasn't even a stressful fight, just an annoying one because of apparent DM cheating.

The most memorable part of the encounter was roasting chickens in the burning house. I threw a chicken in the fire because I was hungry but everyone gasped in horror because they took it as a sign of losing my temper and taking it out on the chickens.

I think in order for a monster to qualify as overpowered and scary it needs to either have a lot of firepower or a lot of mobility + defenses, and wererats only have defenses.

I nominate Iron Golems (CR 16) and Balors (CR 19) as underpowered, and I'll join the consensus on Star Spawn Manglers and Shadows being overpowered. Neogi Masters (CR 4) and Neogis (CR 3) in general are also pretty powerful for their CR, due to Enslavement charm and Hold Person IV, and anything that paralyzes, like Scarecrows (CR 1) and Yetis (CR 3). Earth Elementals also punch above their CR 5 rating, and Salamanders (CR 5). Mind Flayer Arcanists are also pretty scary for CR 8 due to Mind Blast, Wall of Force, Shield, etc.

Edit: oh yeah, and Stirges are pretty nasty for a CR 1/8 creature. Pretty much anything that outnumbers the PCs by 4:1 or better is going to give them a bad time, but when an "Easy" fight (16 Stirges at 25 XP x 4 per Stirge = 1600 adjusted XP) forces a 5th level party to spend precious AoEs like Fireball to avoid TPK, even in the best-case scenario where the Stirges adopt Fireball Formation... they're just so inexpensive and they pack a punch. Stirges rock. In my game they are larval dragons.

[JackPhoenix]

Wererats fall into that little space perfectly where you can't expect to have a magical weapon (and you're a level too early for subclasses that would grant them or magic weapon), and nobody packs a silvered weapon. Then you remember that they have total immunity to B/P/S that doesn't fall into that category. Unless you've got an Artificer (or a Bladepact warlock) you're in for a rough time. Are they as bad as Intellect Devourers? No, but they're not bears either.

Or a torch, few flasks of oil optional. Or a spellcaster with any offensive cantrip. Or a sockful of silver coins. Or a bucket of water and someone with good Athletics. Or a convenient cliff/hole. Lycanthropes are overrated.

[Sigreid]

Intellect Devourer. I cant think of another low CR monster as likely to straight up kill a character regardless of level.

Edit: and wear them as a meat suit to mess up the rest of the party.

[Twelvetrees]

Basically anything with multi attack below CR 1 is above the CR curve because it gives you more chances for the DM to get lucky rolls. Quicklings are a decent example of a CR 1 creature that still fits the bill here. Three attacks with a +8 to hit and solid damage for each, plus the ability to kite the party into oblivion makes for a nasty combo.

I'd like to nominate the violet fungus for an honorable mention. CR 1/4, with the potential to make 4 attacks in a single turn. Wildly swingy, of course, because the DM rolls 1d4 to see how many attacks they actually get, but still.


Anything with Pack Tactics can have a pretty similar effect. Velociraptors have already been mentioned, but I'd like to give Young Kruthiks a nod. Supposedly the same CR as kobolds, yet their AC is 4 points better and they've got nearly twice the health. Oh, and let's not forget that their attack and damage are a little stronger and they've got a burrow and climb speed.

[Chronos]

Dragon Heist has an NPC who casts as a 7th-level wizard, at CR 2. This is presumably because his typical list of spells prepared is almost completely devoid of offensive spells... but they apparently forgot that for NPCs that cast as prepared casters, changing their spells prepared isn't supposed to change their CR.

[MaxWilson]

Dragon Heist has an NPC who casts as a 7th-level wizard, at CR 2. This is presumably because his typical list of spells prepared is almost completely devoid of offensive spells... but they apparently forgot that for NPCs that cast as prepared casters, changing their spells prepared isn't supposed to change their CR.

To be fair, the MM does also warn that changing the spells prepared may cause the creature to become over- or underpowered for its CR. Clearly it's not a bad idea to recompute CR in extreme cases.

[loki_ragnarock]

Flameskulls.

Their AC is so low! But they can cast shield. And Blur. So it's actually kind of high.

They have just a $%^&-ton of resistances and immunities. And Magic Resistance on top.

They can fly, quickly. All of their means to hurt you are ranged. And they have resistance to piercing damage, regardless of whether or not it's magical.

They come back in an hour if you don't know the extremely specific trick to put them down forever. So after a fight that eliminates the melee characters and mitigates the spell based ranged characters and is a tougher nut to crack for your longbow character, you get to do it all again in an hour.

And my personal favorite: if you put a bunch of them together, they are immune to friendly fire. Enjoy opening a door to four simultaneous fireballs with no regard for positioning.


I hate them. Mostly because they predate Absorb Elements. They're probably less intense now. But I'd still put them up against Banshee for bad times.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention that their ability to come back in an hour can only be mitigated by 3rd level spells characters can cast at 5th level... and that it's CR 4. If you don't have holy water on you, you're just going to have to deal with them again in an hour even if you know what it takes to end them. You can get clever and lock them in a chest, but those eyebeams will burn through most things.
Oh, lawdy. They are terrible.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Meh. One of my first experiences as a player in 5E was with wererats. I had Expeditious Retreat but I didn't need it, I just kited it to death with Chill Touch without ever getting in melee range. The DM tried a cheap trick of having it fake death--I say it was cheap because I attacked it a couple more times, and then it tried to come back to life anyway and attack me or something after I set the house on fire to burn its corpse, and I just plain don't believe it really had that many HP, I think the DM was cheating to make it more "dramatic".

I don't remember why it never got within melee range even when the house was on fire, but regardless my plan was to break contact via Expeditious Retreat if necessary, so it wasn't even a stressful fight, just an annoying one because of apparent DM cheating.

The most memorable part of the encounter was roasting chickens in the burning house. I threw a chicken in the fire because I was hungry but everyone gasped in horror because they took it as a sign of losing my temper and taking it out on the chickens.

I think in order for a monster to qualify as overpowered and scary it needs to either have a lot of firepower or a lot of mobility + defenses, and wererats only have defenses.

I nominate Iron Golems (CR 16) and Balors (CR 19) as underpowered, and I'll join the consensus on Star Spawn Manglers and Shadows being overpowered. Neogi Masters (CR 4) and Neogis (CR 3) in general are also pretty powerful for their CR, due to Enslavement charm and Hold Person IV, and anything that paralyzes, like Scarecrows (CR 1) and Yetis (CR 3). Earth Elementals also punch above their CR 5 rating, and Salamanders (CR 5). Mind Flayer Arcanists are also pretty scary for CR 8 due to Mind Blast, Wall of Force, Shield, etc.

Edit: oh yeah, and Stirges are pretty nasty for a CR 1/8 creature. Pretty much anything that outnumbers the PCs by 4:1 or better is going to give them a bad time, but when an "Easy" fight (16 Stirges at 25 XP x 4 per Stirge = 1600 adjusted XP) forces a 5th level party to spend precious AoEs like Fireball to avoid TPK, even in the best-case scenario where the Stirges adopt Fireball Formation... they're just so inexpensive and they pack a punch. Stirges rock. In my game they are larval dragons.

I guess I've got to agree on the Stirges since they were one of the few creatures that ever caused a party death in our group (Paladin at level 1). Not sure how many other creatures when multiplied by 8 to give a CR 1 encounter get +5 to hit and average 44 hp of damage. Then the wonderful added bonus of automatic damage the next round for each one you don't kill. Definitely one of those times you are calculating whether or not it's worth it to Burning Hands your own party member.
On the Were Rats, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, if you encounter them at range and are aware they are Were Rats I can see how they could be dealt with reasonably. However, they are average intelligence, which is smart enough to not give away what they are if they can avoid it. So you could easily find yourself in a situation where the party spends a round or so bashing away doing nothing before they start experimenting with other tactics to figure out what works. By then the party might be on the wrong end if a real problem. And, at that point many characters may be resorting to sub-optimal attacks rather than plan A.

[MaxWilson]

I guess I've got to agree on the Stirges since they were one of the few creatures that ever caused a party death in our group (Paladin at level 1). Not sure how many other creatures when multiplied by 8 to give a CR 1 encounter get +5 to hit and average 44 hp of damage. Then the wonderful added bonus of automatic damage the next round for each one you don't kill. Definitely one of those times you are calculating whether or not it's worth it to Burning Hands your own party member.
On the Were Rats, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, if you encounter them at range and are aware they are Were Rats I can see how they could be dealt with reasonably. However, they are average intelligence, which is smart enough to not give away what they are if they can avoid it. So you could easily find yourself in a situation where the party spends a round or so bashing away doing nothing before they start experimenting with other tactics to figure out what works. By then the party might be on the wrong end if a real problem. And, at that point many characters may be resorting to sub-optimal attacks rather than plan A.

Good point. I guess it depends on how obvious the DM makes the effects of weapon resistance / immunity, to both players and monsters.

[Lunali]

Ghosts and intellect devourers, one saving throw to potentially drop a character of any level.

[JackPhoenix]

I guess I've got to agree on the Stirges since they were one of the few creatures that ever caused a party death in our group (Paladin at level 1). Not sure how many other creatures when multiplied by 8 to give a CR 1 encounter get +5 to hit and average 44 hp of damage. Then the wonderful added bonus of automatic damage the next round for each one you don't kill. Definitely one of those times you are calculating whether or not it's worth it to Burning Hands your own party member.

Well, here's your problem. That's not how encounter building or CR calculations work. An encounter doesn't have a CR, it has difficulty. A single CR 1 creature is medium difficulty encounter for 4 level 1 characters (200 adjusted XP). For the same party, 8 CR 1/8 creatures is a deadly encounter (500 adjusted XP).

XP award is the same though.

[Boci]

Meh. One of my first experiences as a player in 5E was with wererats. I had Expeditious Retreat but I didn't need it, I just kited it to death with Chill Touch without ever getting in melee range.

By default wererats have a handcrossbow in their profile. Were you also staying out of that range?

[MaxWilson]

By default wererats have a handcrossbow in their profile. Were you also staying out of that range?

No. Maybe the DM forgot. (I sure did, while writing that story! Actually I never realized they had ranged weapons by default at all.)

It would have been long range though for a hand crossbow, so not very threatening still, and the point stands that it's not difficult to injure them even at first level.

[Unoriginal]

Dragon Heist has an NPC who casts as a 7th-level wizard, at CR 2. This is presumably because his typical list of spells prepared is almost completely devoid of offensive spells... but they apparently forgot that for NPCs that cast as prepared casters, changing their spells prepared isn't supposed to change their CR.

Three things:

1) Changing a NPC spell list is absolutely supposed to change their CR. CR is a calculation based on damage-causing and damage-reducing capacities, and anything that that modifies either significantly modifies the CR.

2) That NPC in particular is described as a pacifist who will not hurt anyone, so him getting offensive spells isn't going to happen.

3) The NPC isn't actually a prepared caster. While the DM can do it, there is no specific "NPC prepare their spells" rules.

[Boci]

No. Maybe the DM forgot. (I sure did, while writing that story! Actually I never realized they had ranged weapons by default at all.)

It would have been long range though for a hand crossbow, so not very threatening still, and the point stands that it's not difficult to injure them even at first level.

Disadvantage with only a +4 to hit is rough, but it has 33 health, and any hit it scores is going to force a con save to keep your spell up. Plus i believe it can multiattack shooting twice, since it doesn't say it can't, and I believe monsters will ignore the crossbows restrictions that apply to a player.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Well, here's your problem. That's not how encounter building or CR calculations work. An encounter doesn't have a CR, it has difficulty. A single CR 1 creature is medium difficulty encounter for 4 level 1 characters (200 adjusted XP). For the same party, 8 CR 1/8 creatures is a deadly encounter (500 adjusted XP).

XP award is the same though.

Fair enough. Bad phrasing on my part.

[Dr. Cliché]

I've found lycanthropes of all varieties to be underwhelming at best, without significant modification.

They've got one thing going for them and that's immunity to non-magical physical damage. And given that 5e is filled to the brim with magic, that's like being a sailor whose only weakness is that he's water-soluble.

Other than that, they're just lacklustre brawlers with no tricks and mediocre stats and weapons.

There is also the aspect of scaling. One much-touted element of 5e is that lower-CR monsters remain dangerous to the party (albeit usually in groups or such). However, as soon as the party acquires magic weapons/attacks, lycanthropes became vastly less dangerous (to say nothing of the fact that they effectively trade half their hp for that immunity and so are also much more vulnerable to damaging spells and the like).



In terms of enemies that are strong for their CR, I found Salamanders put up quite a fight. Granted, this was against a party with a heavy focus on melee. But the fact that they dealt damage to party members who attacked them meant they ended up inflicting a *lot* of damage out of initiative.

However, my first pick wold probably be the Ghost, due entirely to its Horrifying Visage (60ft radius on a creature that can fly 40ft and move through walls). For anyone who doesn't know, that ability can age a character 10-40 years on a failed wisdom save. That's bad enough for humans but bear in mind also that some races, like Aarakocra, have lifespans of just 30 years. Yeah. To make matters worse, even resurrection-type spells can't usually bring back creatures that have died of old age. So it's a CR4 monster that can potentially perma-death a character on a single failed wisdom save.

[Lunali]

I've found lycanthropes of all varieties to be underwhelming at best, without significant modification.

They've got one thing going for them and that's immunity to non-magical physical damage. And given that 5e is filled to the brim with magic, that's like being a sailor whose only weakness is that he's water-soluble.

Other than that, they're just lacklustre brawlers with no tricks and mediocre stats and weapons.

Not true, they have one trick, they can make their enemies immune to all their attacks.

[Dr. Cliché]

Not true, they have one trick, they can make their enemies immune to all their attacks.

:smallbiggrin:

I wonder how Lycanthropes settle differences amongst themselves? Staring contests, maybe?

[Unoriginal]

:smallbiggrin:

I wonder how Lycanthropes settle differences amongst themselves? Staring contests, maybe?

Lycanthropes are still vulnerable to strangulation, and wrestling in general.

But a Lycanthrope with a silver or magic weapon would def. have an advantage.

[JackPhoenix]

However, my first pick wold probably be the Ghost, due entirely to its Horrifying Visage (60ft radius on a creature that can fly 40ft and move through walls). For anyone who doesn't know, that ability can age a character 10-40 years on a failed wisdom save. That's bad enough for humans but bear in mind also that some races, like Aarakocra, have lifespans of just 30 years. Yeah. To make matters worse, even resurrection-type spells can't usually bring back creatures that have died of old age. So it's a CR4 monster that can potentially perma-death a character on a single failed wisdom save.

Ah, ghost... or how I've got the rest of the party to beat up the party wizard, and how I convinced one of the characters to accept a deal with a demon (the campaign's BBEG to boot) through the offer of restoring her youth in the span of a single encounter. Good times.

[stoutstien]

Most of the swarms are pretty nasty for their CR. Lots of immunities and resistance on top of Decent HP pools can allow them to chew through targets fairly quickly.

Big T would have to be my vote for over CRed by a large margin. On a good day it's a good environment type threat but as a combat challenge it isn't.

[Trask]

Kind of a funny answer, but I feel like simple goblins can punch above their weight class pretty well, as long as there are places to easily hide. It requires a lot of DM managing, so they're not a creature that will be threatening if played simply, but their ability to disengage and hide with ease makes them a pretty dangerous force actually.

[MaxWilson]

I've found lycanthropes of all varieties to be underwhelming at best, without significant modification.

They've got one thing going for them and that's immunity to non-magical physical damage. And given that 5e is filled to the brim with magic, that's like being a sailor whose only weakness is that he's water-soluble.

Other than that, they're just lacklustre brawlers with no tricks and mediocre stats and weapons.

I like to run Lycanthropes slightly different from the MM: instead of immunity to non-silver damage, they have regeneration on par with my Trolls. That is, they regenerate 20 HP per round, unless their max HP is reduced to zero, which can only be done with silver weapons. They still die like anything else when they take total damage = HP x 2, so they're not absolutely immune to Tyranosaurs, etc., but you also can't just casually Fireball wererats and be done the way you can with orcs. You have to finish them off, and silver weapons are the best way to do so.

For Trolls, the max HP reduction comes from fire or acid instead of silver.

[Witty Username]

A swarm of rot grubs can kill any PC with a single hit as a CR 1/4. That is probably the most CR efficient monster to say the least.

Good idea on lycanthropes, I would allow poison to have the same effect, for wolf's bane references.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Ah, ghost... or how I've got the rest of the party to beat up the party wizard, and how I convinced one of the characters to accept a deal with a demon (the campaign's BBEG to boot) through the offer of restoring her youth in the span of a single encounter. Good times.

That's awesome. Throwing out monsters to chop up the characters isn't really that fun, but giving them enough rope to hang themselves is priceless.

[Lunali]

However, my first pick wold probably be the Ghost, due entirely to its Horrifying Visage (60ft radius on a creature that can fly 40ft and move through walls). For anyone who doesn't know, that ability can age a character 10-40 years on a failed wisdom save. That's bad enough for humans but bear in mind also that some races, like Aarakocra, have lifespans of just 30 years. Yeah. To make matters worse, even resurrection-type spells can't usually bring back creatures that have died of old age. So it's a CR4 monster that can potentially perma-death a character on a single failed wisdom save.

If you rate ghosts high entirely due to horrifying visage, you're ignoring possession. One failed save and a party that doesn't have turn undead has to beat one of their party members unconscious before likely immediately having to face another saving throw.

One of the random encounters in CoS is a ghost that will immediately attempt to possess someone and make them run away towards a 20d6 fall damage cliff.

[Dr. Cliché]

I like to run Lycanthropes slightly different from the MM: instead of immunity to non-silver damage, they have regeneration on par with my Trolls. That is, they regenerate 20 HP per round, unless their max HP is reduced to zero, which can only be done with silver weapons. They still die like anything else when they take total damage = HP x 2, so they're not absolutely immune to Tyranosaurs, etc., but you also can't just casually Fireball wererats and be done the way you can with orcs. You have to finish them off, and silver weapons are the best way to do so.

For Trolls, the max HP reduction comes from fire or acid instead of silver.

Oh that's an interesting idea. I might pinch it if you don't mind. :smallwink:

I do have a question, though - if a lycanthrope has had its max hp reduced by silver weapons, what happens if it then escapes from the party? Is there any way it can recover its lost max hp under your rules or does it just have reduced max hp forever?



If you rate ghosts high entirely due to horrifying visage, you're ignoring possession. One failed save and a party that doesn't have turn undead has to beat one of their party members unconscious before likely immediately having to face another saving throw.

You're right, I phrased my original statement badly. What I meant was that, in addition to everything else (like Possession), the Ghost has an ability that can perma-kill many races. That's a hell of a thing for any CR4 monster to have.

But yeah, the Ghost seems to have quite a toolbox of nasty tricks.

[Chronos]

A swarm of rot grubs can kill any PC with a single hit as a CR 1/4. That is probably the most CR efficient monster to say the least.
Where are those from? I'm not finding them in the Monster Manual.

[Boci]

Where are those from? I'm not finding them in the Monster Manual.

Volo´s Guide to Monsters. They have an attack that is +0 and reads "Hit: The target is infested by 1d4 rot grubs. At the start of each of the target's turns, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage per rot grub infesting it. Applying fire to the bite wound before the end of the target's next turn deals 1 fire damage to the target and kills these rot grubs. After this time, these rot grubs are too far under the skin to be burned."

[Warlush]

Will 'o Whisps are pretty nasty.

[Witty Username]

Where are those from? I'm not finding them in the Monster Manual.
Volo's guide, page 208. And I missrembered, their CR 1/2.

[Witty Username]

Where are those from? I'm not finding them in the Monster Manual.
Volo's guide, page 208. And I missrembered, they are CR 1/2.

[ff7hero]

Volo´s Guide to Monsters. They have an attack that is +0 and reads "Hit: The target is infested by 1d4 rot grubs. At the start of each of the target's turns, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage per rot grub infesting it. Applying fire to the bite wound before the end of the target's next turn deals 1 fire damage to the target and kills these rot grubs. After this time, these rot grubs are too far under the skin to be burned."

Those are mean. Require a disease removal effect to remove after that turn. These could easily be a (lengthy) OHKO against much higher level parties depending on party composition.

[MaxWilson]

Oh that's an interesting idea. I might pinch it if you don't mind. :smallwink:

I do have a question, though - if a lycanthrope has had its max hp reduced by silver weapons, what happens if it then escapes from the party? Is there any way it can recover its lost max hp under your rules or does it just have reduced max hp forever?

It heals at the natural healing rate (i.e. HD healing, since I don't do heal-to-full automatically on a long rest).


Those are mean. Require a disease removal effect to remove after that turn. These could easily be a (lengthy) OHKO against much higher level parties depending on party composition.

I don't see anything that gives the rot grubs total cover against AoEs. Normally stuff that gives you total cover is specifically called out, e.g. being swallowed by a Purple Worm makes you IIRC "blinded and restrained" in addition to having "total cover from effects originating outside the worm." It might be deliberate that rot grubs don't have a similar trait, and if so you can probably still just kill them in a Thunderwave cantrip or kill them with Shatter.

DM's call, but remember that druids can Wildshape into rot grubs, so don't make them too overpowered or it's on you as a DM.

[ff7hero]

DM's call, but remember that druids can Wildshape into rot grubs, so don't make them too overpowered or it's on you as a DM.

I wouldn't be surprised if a DM came up with some other method of removal, but unless there are statistics for individual rot grubs that I'm missing I don't think that was the intent, although I welcome any evidence that rot grubs aren't a Gygaxian puzzle monster. "One bad die roll and you're on a tickling clock to get Lay on Hands or Lesser Restoration," seems harsh, but so do Intellect Devourers and Shadows.

Wild Shaping into swarms is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I wouldn't be surprised if a DM came up with some other method of removal, but unless there are statistics for individual rot grubs that I'm missing I don't think that was the intent, although I welcome any evidence that rot grubs aren't a Gygaxian puzzle monster. "One bad die roll and you're on a tickling clock to get Lay on Hands or Lesser Restoration," seems harsh, but so do Intellect Devourers and Shadows.

Wild Shaping into swarms is a whole 'nother can of worms.

I mean, Wildshape pretty explicitly calls out that you can assume the shape of a beast that you've seen, and the second paragraph emphasizes this "any beast that has a CR of...", using the singular verb. I don't really see a way to twist that into saying that you can become a swarm.

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't be surprised if a DM came up with some other method of removal, but unless there are statistics for individual rot grubs that I'm missing I don't think that was the intent, although I welcome any evidence that rot grubs aren't a Gygaxian puzzle monster.

I see coming up with statistics as the DM's job. If I am a druid and I point to a beast and say, "I want to wildshape into one of those," I expect the DM to say either "Okay" or "You can't because [the CR is too high, it swims/flies, it's not really a beast]". I don't expect to hear "the MM doesn't have stats for it."

[Witty Username]

I would borrow a stat block from some small insect, or just say rot grubs have 1hp and use the swarm block.

[ff7hero]

I see coming up with statistics as the DM's job. If I am a druid and I point to a beast and say, "I want to wildshape into one of those," I expect the DM to say either "Okay" or "You can't because [the CR is too high, it swims/flies, it's not really a beast]". I don't expect to hear "the MM doesn't have stats for it."

I see. I misunderstood your point as "don't make the Rot Grub Swarm too strong or else your Druids will be able to use it." Since it seems you were discussing a case where a Druid wanted to turn into a single Rot Grub (why?), I'd likely do something similar to Witty Username and give them 1 HP with the movement and Blindsight of the Swarm (5 ft walk/climb, 10 ft Blindsight, otherwise Blind and Deaf and again I ask why). Of course (imo), a singular Rot Grub wouldn't have the "Bites" Action that implants more Rot Grubs so no worries about PCs using this ability, at least via Wild Shape.

Which gets us back around to the topic, which I definitely feel like the Rot Grubs qualify for. Without a merciful ruling on alternate means of Grub removal, this CR 1/2 can easily kill a 1st or 2nd level PC with even a single hit. Afaik at levels 1 and 2, a Paladin's Lay on Hands is the only disease remover. Even then, you still need the PCs to figure out that it's technically a "disease" dealing 1-4d6 damage every 6 seconds before that damage is lethal.

Even at 3rd+ level, it's totally possible for your healer to not be immediately able to scrub this; whether that's because your party doesn't have a traditional healer with access to Lesser Restoration or your healer doesn't have Lesser Restoration prepped or your healer doesn't have any 2nd+ level spell slots.

[Witty Username]

Even at 3rd+ level, it's totally possible for your healer to not be immediately able to scrub this; whether that's because your party doesn't have a traditional healer with access to Lesser Restoration or your healer doesn't have Lesser Restoration prepped or your healer doesn't have any 2nd+ level spell slots.

That and the damage lasts as long as it takes to kill them. So even high level character could have issues with some bad luck. I would recommend allowing a medicine check to remove, personally.

I would like to say, the weakest CR30 monster, is the Tarrasque, unless their is a second CR 30 monster I am unaware of.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That and the damage lasts as long as it takes to kill them. So even high level character could have issues with some bad luck. I would recommend allowing a medicine check to remove, personally.

I would like to say, the weakest CR30 monster, is the Tarrasque, unless their is a second CR 30 monster I am unaware of.

The "fully charged" Tiamat from the Rise of Tiamat is nominally a CR30, iirc.

[Witty Username]

Well, which is the better Kaiju?

[MaxWilson]

Well, which is the better Kaiju?

Tiamat is vastly superior to the Tarrasque, although Rak Tulkhesh and especially Sul Khatesh are superior to both (despite a lower nominal CR).

[Dr. Cliché]

It heals at the natural healing rate (i.e. HD healing, since I don't do heal-to-full automatically on a long rest).

Awesome. Thank you.

[Witty Username]

I don't see anything that gives the rot grubs total cover against AoEs. Normally stuff that gives you total cover is specifically called out, e.g. being swallowed by a Purple Worm makes you IIRC "blinded and restrained" in addition to having "total cover from effects originating outside the worm." It might be deliberate that rot grubs don't have a similar trait, and if so you can probably still just kill them in a Thunderwave, cantrip or kill them with Shatter.
Well, rot grubs don't have stat blocks of their own, so we would need to make one for that to apply, otherwise by RAW they are essentially not creatures and therefore can't be affected by conditions or can benefit from total cover acting more like a disease or poison. In short, if rot grubs were intended to be kill able with a thunderwave, they would have at least been given hp and likely would have been given a stat block.

[MeimuHakurei]

Beholders are pretty over-CRed at 13 considering they're completely neutralized by any sight-blocking effect, including spells. Their eye rays require being able to see to target (something that Fog Cloud, Darkness etc. effectively prevent) and the antimagic cone also blocks the rays, so it's ineffective at countering the strategy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Beholders are pretty over-CRed at 13 considering they're completely neutralized by any sight-blocking effect, including spells. Their eye rays require being able to see to target (something that Fog Cloud, Darkness etc. effectively prevent) and the antimagic cone also blocks the rays, so it's ineffective at countering the strategy.

Stock Beholders, probably. If you use some of the variant abilities suggested for them (that are "balanced", like replacing the charm ray with a banishment ray, or enervation for polymorph, all concentration-free) they can actually be properly CR'd. Their 3rd Lair action also helps them out.

The biggest issue facing Beholders in 5E, imho, is that every time they fire an eye ray, it's random. If they had the ability to choose one per round, or if their Legendary Action let them choose an eye ray, they'd be a lot better. Alas, it is not to be so.

[MaxWilson]

Beholders are pretty over-CRed at 13 considering they're completely neutralized by any sight-blocking effect, including spells. Their eye rays require being able to see to target (something that Fog Cloud, Darkness etc. effectively prevent) and the antimagic cone also blocks the rays, so it's ineffective at countering the strategy.

Beholders do combo well though with e.g. hordes of goblins, who can not only break concentration on Fog Cloud/Darkness (or exploit them via Nimble Escape) but can also hide inside of antimagic zones to avoid Fireballs.

Beholders RAW are better leaders than solos.

Beholder + five Star Spawn Manglers would be fun and challenging.

[Zuras]

Beholders do combo well though with e.g. hordes of goblins, who can not only break concentration on Fog Cloud/Darkness (or exploit them via Nimble Escape) but can also hide inside of antimagic zones to avoid Fireballs.

Beholders RAW are better leaders than solos.

Beholder + five Star Spawn Manglers would be fun and challenging.

Beholders are intelligent, and can be expected to have minions. Volos even has random tables for them. They’re not under CRed any more than a CR 12 Archmage. Caught alone and unprepared, they will painfully underperform, so if that happens it should be the result of clever player tactics, not careless DMing.

[Witty Username]

What is the scariest CR 1 monster? I know about bugbear and quickling, any others.

Oh, a Gelatinous Cube that has been spotted is probably the weakest CR2, just on speed alone.

[Eldariel]

For CR1, Harpy is pretty nasty. Luring Song has a range of 300' and it's a great way to make people fall off cliffs, drown themselves, etc. They also have a fairly nasty bunch of HP and flight and the song ends only on incapacitation. A few Harpies in e.g. island or naval terrain can TPK a fairly high level party; while only DC11, multiples make succeeding all fairly unlikely for a low level character, even a 16 Wis Cleric or Druid. (75% per song) if it fails? Fly away and try again next day. Very few low level parties have much of a chance to hurt one even with LoS.

The boring but probably correct answer is Wyrmling Brass Dragon though. AOE Sleep/4d6 nuke, flight, AC, BURROW, Dragons are obviously never to be trifled with. Spectre is another solid entry, but even with incorporeal resistances, it only matches Dragon HP accounting for AC, and incorporeality is annoying but Spectre has low HP to use it. Offensively it's far less immediately dangerous though it does bypass death gates on a failed save (which is not nothing). Copper Dragon has a cone breath which is better but the effect is far less brutal on low levels where people rarely have useful bonus actions or multiple attacks anyways. Though the Harpy is probably the most annoying (but it takes 2 failed saves to make someone fall off a cliff or some such).

[MaxWilson]

Young White Dragon is pretty deadly for CR 6. 10d8 (45) breath weapon (Con save so ignores evasion), good HP, burrow, etc.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

One thing I find weird is that Dragons don't get B/P/S resistance to non-magical attacks. While this may not make a lot of difference to most parties, particularly at the level they are facing dragons, it can certainly come up with summoning and allies. Not sure it makes them underpowered, but more vulnerable in some situations. (I generally started giving B/P/S resistance at Adult age)

[Unoriginal]

One thing I find weird is that Dragons don't get B/P/S resistance to non-magical attacks. While this may not make a lot of difference to most parties, particularly at the level they are facing dragons, it can certainly come up with summoning and allies.

I find that neat. I think it helps differentiate Dragons from creatures like Fiends or Celestials.


Not sure it makes them underpowered, but more vulnerable in some situations.

Dragons are powerful enough that it certainly doesn't make them underpowered.


Now I'm imagining a Raging Dragon Barbarian.

[Eldariel]

Now I'm imagining a Raging Dragon Barbarian.

Make it a Bear Totem Warrior while at it. Hilarious imagery if you take the fluff too - a dragon worshipping bear spirits.

[Boci]

Remind me of a debate from 3.5, if a dragon and a fiend have a child together, is it a half-dragon fiend or a half-fiend dragon?

[Eldariel]

Remind me of a debate from 3.5, if a dragon and a fiend have a child together, is it a half-dragon fiend or a half-fiend dragon?

Given how readily dragons spread their half-dragonhood to basically anything, I'd say half-dragon X trumps every other option. :smalltongue:

[Unoriginal]

Remind me of a debate from 3.5, if a dragon and a fiend have a child together, is it a half-dragon fiend or a half-fiend dragon?

Could be either, really.

Could even argue that taking the (Demonic) Cambion statblock and applying the Half-Dragon template works, making them truly half and half.

[Xetheral]

Flameskulls.

Their AC is so low! But they can cast shield. And Blur. So it's actually kind of high.

They have just a $%^&-ton of resistances and immunities. And Magic Resistance on top.

They can fly, quickly. All of their means to hurt you are ranged. And they have resistance to piercing damage, regardless of whether or not it's magical.

They come back in an hour if you don't know the extremely specific trick to put them down forever. So after a fight that eliminates the melee characters and mitigates the spell based ranged characters and is a tougher nut to crack for your longbow character, you get to do it all again in an hour.

And my personal favorite: if you put a bunch of them together, they are immune to friendly fire. Enjoy opening a door to four simultaneous fireballs with no regard for positioning.


I hate them. Mostly because they predate Absorb Elements. They're probably less intense now. But I'd still put them up against Banshee for bad times.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention that their ability to come back in an hour can only be mitigated by 3rd level spells characters can cast at 5th level... and that it's CR 4. If you don't have holy water on you, you're just going to have to deal with them again in an hour even if you know what it takes to end them. You can get clever and lock them in a chest, but those eyebeams will burn through most things.
Oh, lawdy. They are terrible.

If you can get them within range (admittedly difficult, usually requires the ability to Dash and attack in the same turn) nets are the perfect tool against Flameskulls. Flameskulls have terrible strength and no ability to do slashing damage, so they're restrained for a good long while. Without their ability to use their flight speed to duck in and out of full cover, Flameskulls are much less scary.

[Unoriginal]

If you can get them within range (admittedly difficult, usually requires the ability to Dash and attack in the same turn) nets are the perfect tool against Flameskulls. Flameskulls have terrible strength and no ability to do slashing damage, so they're restrained for a good long while. Without their ability to use their flight speed to duck in and out of full cover, Flameskulls are much less scary.

Wouldn't Fireball makes short work of a net?

[JackPhoenix]

Remind me of a debate from 3.5, if a dragon and a fiend have a child together, is it a half-dragon fiend or a half-fiend dragon?

I'd say depends on the mother, with the template coming from the father.


Wouldn't Fireball makes short work of a net?

No, because Fireball doesn't damage objects. And net requires slashing damage to cut through.

[Unoriginal]

No, because Fireball doesn't damage objects. And net requires slashing damage to cut through.

It sets objects on fire, though.

[Boci]

No, because Fireball doesn't damage objects.

It does, or it ignites flammable objects at least. So up to the DM to decide if nets are flammable.

[JackPhoenix]

It sets objects on fire, though.

There are, unfortunately, no rules for what does that mean mechanically, though.

[Unoriginal]

There are, unfortunately, no rules for what does that mean mechanically, though.

That's why there is a DM.

[Witty Username]

Remind me of a debate from 3.5, if a dragon and a fiend have a child together, is it a half-dragon fiend or a half-fiend dragon?

Yes

That is all but I have to fluff the word count.

[Lunali]

For CR1 I'd like to throw in Carrionette from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. Two DC12 CHA saves to effectively kill a character of any level. Granted, it has to stay alive that long, but if there are other threats around, it doesn't seem that dangerous until someone in the party suddenly changes sides.

[MaxWilson]

For CR1 I'd like to throw in Carrionette from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft. Two DC12 CHA saves to effectively kill a character of any level. Granted, it has to stay alive that long, but if there are other threats around, it doesn't seem that dangerous until someone in the party suddenly changes sides.

Well, a successful attack at +4 followed by two DC 12 Cha saves, one of them at a d4 penalty. And a first level Protection From Evil fixes the possession.

So high AC and a Shield spell protect you from Carrionettes just like they do anything else. Overall that makes them much, much less deadly than Intellect Devourers, more on par with Shadows.

[Lunali]

Well, a successful attack at +4 followed by two DC 12 Cha saves, one of them at a d4 penalty. And a first level Protection From Evil fixes the possession.

So high AC and a Shield spell protect you from Carrionettes just like they do anything else. Overall that makes them much, much less deadly than Intellect Devourers, more on par with Shadows.

The attack is likely at advantage as it surprises you from being hidden, possibly even denying the reaction necessary for shield. On the other hand the second save is actually not at a penalty, the d4 only applies to attacks and ability checks.