How to build a Gish

[shipiaozi]

Gish is a character with combination of martial/spellcasting abilities. By this definition alone, we could immediately know most martial or spellcasting boost works poorly on Gish characters. A full martial could benefits 100% from martial resources, a full spellcasters could benefits 100% from spellcasting resources, while a gish only benefits 50-70% from such resources. As we all know, simply mix martial and spellcasting class would result into extremely weak characters who are neither capable of martial nor spellcasting. What Gish looking for, are spellcasting resources for martial character or martial resources for spellcasters.

There are two types of Gish resources in 5e: Staff-like items and Divine Smite. As a result, there are two types of Gish in 5e: martial multiclass into sorcerer, and caster multiclass Paladin 2

Staffs are more powerful when martials use them, especially with quicken metamagic. Martials usually have no way to use concentration, lacks AOE ability and have standard action attack far better than cantrip. Attack three times and cast a fireball with bonus action is the best thing a dps could do in T3.

Divine smite isn't a very useful ability for Paladin due to lacks of spell slots, yet more powerful for a caster-based Gish. Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is a pretty bad build, with no extra attack and too many ways to spend resources. The best such builds are College of Swords and Bladesinger, both could perform 2+1 attacks with divine smite. Such Divine smite build should rarely cast spell in combat, probably only in first turn, with reaction or after combat to save spell slots for Divine Smite.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gish is a character with combination of martial/spellcasting abilities. By this definition alone, we could immediately know most martial or spellcasting boost works poorly on Gish characters. A full martial could benefits 100% from martial resources, a full spellcasters could benefits 100% from spellcasting resources, while a gish only benefits 50-70% from such resources. As we all know, simply mix martial and spellcasting class would result into extremely weak characters who are neither capable of martial nor spellcasting. "As we all know" ... but do we, really?

Just out of curiosity: where do you feel that the hexblade warlock fits into this?

[Gilead26]

Gish is a character with combination of martial/spellcasting abilities. By this definition alone, we could immediately know most martial or spellcasting boost works poorly on Gish characters. A full martial could benefits 100% from martial resources, a full spellcasters could benefits 100% from spellcasting resources, while a gish only benefits 50-70% from such resources. As we all know, simply mix martial and spellcasting class would result into extremely weak characters who are neither capable of martial nor spellcasting. What Gish looking for, are spellcasting resources for martial character or martial resources for spellcasters.

There are two types of Gish resources in 5e: Staff-like items and Divine Smite. As a result, there are two types of Gish in 5e: martial multiclass into sorcerer, and caster multiclass Paladin 2

Staffs are more powerful when martials use them, especially with quicken metamagic. Martials usually have no way to use concentration, lacks AOE ability and have standard action attack far better than cantrip. Attack three times and cast a fireball with bonus action is the best thing a dps could do in T3.

Divine smite isn't a very useful ability for Paladin due to lacks of spell slots, yet more powerful for a caster-based Gish. Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is a pretty bad build, with no extra attack and too many ways to spend resources. The best such builds are College of Swords and Bladesinger, both could perform 2+1 attacks with divine smite. Such Divine smite build should rarely cast spell in combat, probably only in first turn, with reaction or after combat to save spell slots for Divine Smite.

You seem to have an incredibly restrictive of what a Gish is. Have you considered, for instance, the potential of the Arcane Trickster/Wizard? Sneak attack stacked on top of shadow blade (which is powered by the wizards higher level slots) and, potentially, adding booming blade on top of that (depending on how your DM feels about the new “weapon must be worth SP” requirement).

[Man_Over_Game]

"As we all know" ... but do we, really?

I agree. There are a bunch of ways you can define "Gish".



Personally, I've always felt that a "proper" Gish is any kind of character who can use spells and weapon attacks in tandem, without losing much power by doing so. Since most spells require your Action, and attacks also require your Action, it means you have to build around a restrictive system that otherwise tries to force you into specializing into Attack/Casting and not do both.

You cannot be put into a position where you're EITHER a caster or a martial, a Gish needs to be able to do both without much loss in efficiency. As long as that remains true, for me, it's probably a Gish.

It does mean that a Ranger/Druid counts as a Gish, being able to use things like Ensnaring Strike to control enemies while maintaining his shots, or using Misty Step to get into an ideal position for a melee attack. His magic doesn't interfere with his weapon attacks, yet it still changes how he fights.

It could be an Eldritch Knight that spends all of his spell slots on Shield and Absorb Elements.

It could be a Tempest Cleric that regularly Concentrates on Spirit Guardians while whacking you with his axe.

Divine Smite is actually something I wouldn't consider "Gish" material. It doesn't act like a spell, it doesn't use a spell, and it doesn't feel like a spell. There isn't even a save or a chance to miss with it. You're essentially converting spell slots into pure damage. It's no different than a Fighter using Action Surge for more attacks, but using a magical currency. Personally, I'd consider Divine Smite to be the worst feature on the Paladin class page, especially considering how much it makes other Paladin features redundant (like their specialized Smite spells).

[quindraco]

There are two types of Gish resources in 5e: Staff-like items and Divine Smite. As a result, there are two types of Gish in 5e: martial multiclass into sorcerer, and caster multiclass Paladin 2

Wait, what? Some of this just confuses me (what is a "staff-like item" in context?), and the rest I disagree with.


Staffs are more powerful when martials use them, especially with quicken metamagic. Martials usually have no way to use concentration, lacks AOE ability and have standard action attack far better than cantrip. Attack three times and cast a fireball with bonus action is the best thing a dps could do in T3.

By T3 you can certainly Fireball twice in one turn as your combat opener, but I have 0 faith I understand what you mean by staff.


Divine smite isn't a very useful ability for Paladin due to lacks of spell slots, yet more powerful for a caster-based Gish. Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is a pretty bad build, with no extra attack and too many ways to spend resources. The best such builds are College of Swords and Bladesinger, both could perform 2+1 attacks with divine smite. Such Divine smite build should rarely cast spell in combat, probably only in first turn, with reaction or after combat to save spell slots for Divine Smite.

I am absolutely not picking up what you're putting down, but if you want to lean into Divine Smite, Sorcadin isn't for just that - Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is used to have a Paladin baseline while you climb towards L17 spells. Divine Smite doesn't scale past using L4 slots to feed it, so higher level slots are Smite-inefficient.

If you want to lean hard into Divine Smite, here's the basic recipe:
Hexblade 3
Paladin 2
Sorcerer 3

Then you just lean hard into Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, combined with Quickened and Seeking.

But you just... don't need Sorcerer or Paladin to make a Gish. A Bladesinger or Bladesinger/Artillerist can do quite well, for example, without being forced into any Charisma classes, which is good, since Bladesingers know exactly what ability modifiers they want most and Charisma isn't one of them.

[Saelethil]

I don’t know if it’s necessarily the best or most efficient use of resources but I feel like a Bladesinger with 2 or 3 levels of Paladin and War Caster could be an awfully fun time. Sure you’d run out of 4th and lower spell slots pretty quickly but that still leaves you with SCAG Cantrips and all those tasty Wizard rituals.
Of course this can only be done if you can spare the 13 in Strength and Charisma which is a tall order considering a how important Int. Con. and Dex. are going to be for any Wizard in melee.

[Bobthewizard]

Gish is a broad term with little agreement as to the edges. Most classes can be seen as some type of Gish in 5e. Even some Barbarians get some spell-like abilities and even wizards can draw a dagger and step into melee. From more martial to more magical (this is not comprehensive and arguments could be made to move most up or down a little).

A. Non-magical: Most Fighter/ Barbarian / Monk / Rogue
B. Spell-like abilities: Echo Knight / Rune Knight / Shadow, 4 elements, Sun Soul Monks
C. 1/3 casters: EK/ AT
D. 1/2 casters: Paladin / Ranger / Artificer
E. Martial full casters: Moon Druid, Hexblade, Valor/Swords Bard, most Clerics, Bladesingers
F. Defensive D6 casters: Abjurer / Clockwork Soul
G. d8 casters: Other Warlocks / Bards / Druids / some Clerics
H. Other Wizards / Sorcerers

I would normally put Gishes at about C through F.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Seems to me the most basic Gish move is a Blade Cantrip. You have an at will ability to strike with a weapon with spell damage on top. Conveniently the spell damage scales with total level, so it doesn't matter what class or combination of classes you take.
I played a Fighter 2/ Dragon Sorcerer X through Curse of Strahd, which worked great. Obviously the campaign ended near the end of tier 2/ beginning of tier 3, and the build likely wouldn't have been great at high levels, but reality is published material and most people's play doesn't extend much past that. While not quite as good as multi-attack a scaled Blade Cantrip (particularly with something like the Dragon Sorc bonus damage) allows a character to largely keep close to martials in at will damage. Then add on the versatility of spells, meaning a strength based character really doesn't need to worry about the ususal range deficiency. Then consider that Sorc allows for the quicken option to provide a Nova option and the flavor of a gish.
Basically there are a pile of ways to play a gish through the most played levels of 5e.

[Mitchellnotes]

5e has a Lot of ways to combine martial abilities and magic. To start your premise with the idea that one has to be a sorcerer is certainly something. I'm not even going to try to add to this because quite honestly im not even sure where you are going with any of it. I thought you believed wizards were the best melee combatants?

[arnin77]

{scrubbed}

[msfnc]

Gish already have a stat block in Mordenkainen’s.

[RogueJK]

Gish already have a stat block in Mordenkainen’s.

That's specifically for a Githyanki Gish enemy/NPC.

"Gish" originated as a term for a Githyanki fighter-mage type, but has become a general term used to refer to any D&D character that combines melee weapon attacks with spellcasting.

[Gtdead]

I think that smite builds are vastly overrated. The most powerful numerical bonus you can achieve by combining martial and caster is armor and shield proficiencies in combination with spells like blur, shield, absorb elements etc. Optimizing the melee dpr/nova part requires too many sacrifices to be worth it unless you do it with long concentration effects like Spirit Guardians, Shadow Blade and the like. Which is why I think that Swords Bard doesn't work at all since he doesn't have native access to these spells, even if he can potentially do more damage than the others.

Sorcerer is good for the occasional BB Smite + Quicken BB Smite. Bladesinger has too many redundancies when combined with Paladin and it's already one of the most MAD subclasses around.

[Saelethil]

Bladesinger has too many redundancies when combined with Paladin and it's already one of the most MAD subclasses around.

I mean, I prefaced my post by acknowledging that it wasn’t the best use of resources and that stat wise it would be difficult to pull off but if I roll well for stats I can’t imagine that I wouldn’t have fun even if the build wasn’t “optimal.”

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think that smite builds are vastly overrated. The most powerful numerical bonus you can achieve by combining martial and caster is armor and shield proficiencies in combination with spells like blur, shield, absorb elements etc. Optimizing the melee dpr/nova part requires too many sacrifices to be worth it unless you do it with long concentration effects like Spirit Guardians, Shadow Blade and the like. Which is why I think that Swords Bard doesn't work at all since he doesn't have native access to these spells, even if he can potentially do more damage than the others.

Sorcerer is good for the occasional BB Smite + Quicken BB Smite. Bladesinger has too many redundancies when combined with Paladin and it's already one of the most MAD subclasses around.

I'm kind of confused at what you mean by 'smite builds'. I'm planning a Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X with PAM (spear) to play through roughly 12th level. Will he be able to smite? Yes. Will he be a (nearly) full caster? Yes. Will he have multi-attack? Yes.
I'm struggling to see how a character who can cast (for example) Slow or Bless then wade into combat with full armor, a shield, and 3+ attacks per round (with smite if I choose) doesn't work. I'm also trying to figure out what sacrifices I made that weren't worth it; I mean 2 Paladin levels cost me 1 caster level and then there's the trade off of all the things you get for Paladin 2 vs the 2 Bard levels I would have had. Doesn't really seem that bad.
I guess I'll find out, as we start playing in a couple of weeks.

[Gtdead]

I'm kind of confused at what you mean by 'smite builds'. I'm planning a Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X with PAM (spear) to play through roughly 12th level. Will he be able to smite? Yes. Will he be a (nearly) full caster? Yes. Will he have multi-attack? Yes.
I'm struggling to see how a character who can cast (for example) Slow or Bless then wade into combat with full armor, a shield, and 3+ attacks per round (with smite if I choose) doesn't work. I'm also trying to figure out what sacrifices I made that weren't worth it; I mean 2 Paladin levels cost me 1 caster level and then there's the trade off of all the things you get for Paladin 2 vs the 2 Bard levels I would have had. Doesn't really seem that bad.
I guess I'll find out, as we start playing in a couple of weeks.

Because as I said, IMO the whole point of these multiclasses are the defensive boni stacking. A Paladin/Bard doesn't have access to all these defensive combos, with the exception of Flourish which is debatable because it happens after you attack.

Also you optimize for weapon damage but you are almost guaranteed to lose one turn using your action to buff/debuff, your AoOs while a bit more common thanks to PAM, aren't very significant because you don't have BB to combine with Warcaster and you will probably need to invest in sentinel.

Your ability to hold concentration will suffer. No absorb elements, no dex saves, no con proficiency that you will probably have to fix with a feat in a build that needs both STR and CHA, no misty step to get out of restrains and problematic hazards. Basically I can't think of anything that this build has in this department other than high AC.

You will be fairly good at dueling melee enemies. I can't say that you will be better than the Sorcadin but your DPR will probably kill faster. I'm not sure though what you are supposed to do against ranged enemies and difficult terrain with verticality. You have the option of Bless + Javelin or Ranged cantrip, but will all this melee investment worth it? Hopefully it will. Also don't forget that you melee capabilities will come fully online at lvl 8 which I consider fairly late. And lastly your lack of aoe capabilities means that swarmy encounters will threaten to drop your concentration all the time since you don't have a good way to get defensive advantage and Dodge action has huge opportunity costs.

That's my analysis anyway. I could be wrong but I have played Sorcadin and these points are based on my experience. The overall action economy is better, saves are better, tanking is better, less feat taxes so it can grab Alert and/or Inspiring Leader to combine with Aid if subclass allows for it.


I mean, I prefaced my post by acknowledging that it wasn’t the best use of resources and that stat wise it would be difficult to pull off but if I roll well for stats I can’t imagine that I wouldn’t have fun even if the build wasn’t “optimal.”

I agree that if you roll high stats, Wizardin can be fun. I don't think I'd prefer it over Fighter 2/Wizard X though.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Because as I said, IMO the whole point of these multiclasses are the defensive boni stacking. A Paladin/Bard doesn't have access to all these defensive combos, with the exception of Flourish which is debatable because it happens after you attack.

Also you optimize for weapon damage but you are almost guaranteed to lose one turn using your action to buff/debuff, your AoOs while a bit more common thanks to PAM, aren't very significant because you don't have BB to combine with Warcaster and you will probably need to invest in sentinel.

Your ability to hold concentration will suffer. No absorb elements, no dex saves, no con proficiency that you will probably have to fix with a feat in a build that needs both STR and CHA, no misty step to get out of restrains and problematic hazards. Basically I can't think of anything that this build has in this department other than high AC.

You will be fairly good at dueling melee enemies. I can't say that you will be better than the Sorcadin but your DPR will probably kill faster. I'm not sure though what you are supposed to do against ranged enemies and difficult terrain with verticality. You have the option of Bless + Javelin or Ranged cantrip, but will all this melee investment worth it? Hopefully it will. Also don't forget that you melee capabilities will come fully online at lvl 8 which I consider fairly late. And lastly your lack of aoe capabilities means that swarmy encounters will threaten to drop your concentration all the time since you don't have a good way to get defensive advantage and Dodge action has huge opportunity costs.

That's my analysis anyway. I could be wrong but I have played Sorcadin and these points are based on my experience. The overall action economy is better, saves are better, tanking is better, less feat taxes so it can grab Alert and/or Inspiring Leader to combine with Aid if subclass allows for it.



I agree that if you roll high stats, Wizardin can be fun. I don't think I'd prefer it over Fighter 2/Wizard X though.

On defense I hear what you are saying, but I don't really rate Shield that high. Maybe this is somewhat table dependent, but if you are having 6 to 8ish encounters per long rest, as we are, a bonus to AC (that might not actually do anything) in one round is a really quick way to use up slots. I'm personally happier to have Bless, which will help me and 2 other allies hit and make saves for a whole encounter. Absorb Elements would be nice, as with occasional use you can guarantee some safety from big damage.

On 'losing a turn' this again might be campaign and table dependent, but our strength based martials are often out of melee range on round 1, so pretty much any buff spell is better than chucking a random javelin. Doesn't apply to every encounter of course. Would Sentinel be good? Yes, but so would bumping Str or Chr. I'm not sure the feat is required. PAM by itself gives me the 1+ extra attacks per round I'm looking for.

On the Con saves, I agree this is an issue. At the same time every character only gets 1 of Wis, Con, or Dex. I'd take Wis or Con over Dex, so I've got one of my top 2 out of the box. Warcaster is a possibility if I start to fail a lot. When it's up, Bless does provide roughly the same bonus I'd get from Con pro until level 9 though.

As per Ranged/ AOE I kind of covered that before, but I'm not sure how a full caster is somehow bad in your eyes. I'll have a bucket of options in the round compared to a full strength based martial, so I really don't understand the critique. As Tasha's gives Slow spell I'd rate that as one of the best 3rd level options for AOE.

Yes, 8th level is high to get Smite + Multi attack. I'm hoping PAM + some of the other versatility of the build will compensate.

Overall this seems like a pretty good Jack of all Trades to me. And I don't think the investment of 2 levels (that give 1 caster level back) and a Feat for Vhuman is that high.

[Speely]

Gish is a character with combination of martial/spellcasting abilities. By this definition alone, we could immediately know most martial or spellcasting boost works poorly on Gish characters. A full martial could benefits 100% from martial resources, a full spellcasters could benefits 100% from spellcasting resources, while a gish only benefits 50-70% from such resources. As we all know, simply mix martial and spellcasting class would result into extremely weak characters who are neither capable of martial nor spellcasting. What Gish looking for, are spellcasting resources for martial character or martial resources for spellcasters.


The Bladesinger post-Tasha's answers all of this.

Crazy AC and spell-slot-less damage output that can be competitive, leaving their spell slots available to be a full-ass Wizard.

Literally the most Gishy feature in the game: Use a cantrip in place of an extra attack. Exploit to BB or get creative as the situation demands. Crazy Options.

Burn spell slots for defense. Oh, you also have Shield and Absorb Elements, so..

They literally gave the wizard class a way to keep up with almost any martial class by just fighting in melee. Plus, you know, all the Wizard stuff.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the OP: "common knowledge" isn't a common as you might think.

Bladesinger, even SCAG bladesinger, provides a decent Gish package if one uses the blade cantrips and also uses debuffs/buffs to accrue advantage or other to hit bonuses.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The Bladesinger post-Tasha's answers all of this.

Crazy AC and spell-slot-less damage output that can be competitive, leaving their spell slots available to be a full-ass Wizard.

Literally the most Gishy feature in the game: Use a cantrip in place of an extra attack. Exploit to BB or get creative as the situation demands. Crazy Options.

Burn spell slots for defense. Oh, you also have Shield and Absorb Elements, so..

They literally gave the wizard class a way to keep up with almost any martial class by just fighting in melee. Plus, you know, all the Wizard stuff.

I'll preface this comment with a note that I in no way agree with the way the OP has framed this discussion.

That said to me the Bladesinger looks really good until you start to look at the fighting styles it's limited to. 1 weapon? What's that other hand and your bonus action supposed to be doing? This really doesn't look like a good way to do any substantial damage and no benefit of a shield. 2 weapons? Well, that's universally viewed as the poorest of the common fighting styles and it's very dependent on investment (in a MAD subclass) to make it close to competitive with the good styles. And that's made even worse by this being a caster build who can't use a weapon as a focus, so Warcaster feat is also a must have. The only thing that looks remotely optimized to me without huge investment is hand crossbow and XBE. Of course you lose your blade cantrip benefit with this, but to me it makes sense since your role in the party remains predominantly a back line character whether you are spell casting or crossbow/ cantripping.
Then there's the defense/ hp side. At early levels you absolutely do not have enough Bladesongs to use for every combat unless your group is doing a 5 min adventuring day. Granted, that improves over time. Then there's the hp/ spell slot issue for a class with the lowest hp in the game. Obviously you are a full caster, so have lots of slots, but at 6-8 encounters per day with several rounds per combat how many 1st level slots are going to be earmarked for Shield/AE if you are front lining? I'd say all of them + most or all 2nd level slots realistically.
Full disclosure is that we haven't had one at our table and I was strongly considering a Str based PAM Bladesinger with a Fighter 1 dip to deal with some of the issues I brought up. Maybe I just have a hang up on spending limited resources to provide cover for the AC + HP a martial character should have, but I don't see how this is remotely close to a full martial build. So these are impressions only, and I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has actually played one of these to see how it went.

[RogueJK]

What's that other hand and your bonus action supposed to be doing?

Keeping a free hand for Material/Somatic component spellcasting, and shoving people with the Telekinetic feat. :smallbiggrin:

Or keeping a free hand for Material/Somatic component spellcasting, and shooting people a second time with a hand crossbow using the Crossbow Expert feat. :smallwink:


I was strongly considering a Str based PAM Bladesinger with a Fighter 1 dip to deal with some of the issues I brought up.

If you're going to dip anyway, a Monk 1/Bladesinger X wouldn't need to be STR-based, or spend a feat to get a d4 BA attack. You'd just have to be able to swing the 13 WIS prerequisite, which could be tricky.

In fact, going Lizardfolk Monk 1/Bladesinger X would both eliminate the need for Mage Armor (since you'd have racial AC of 13+DEX) and also bump the BA attack damage to d6. Better than trying to TWF with shortswords, since it doesn't require drawing two weapons, or tying up both hands to cramp your spellcasting, or require gaining a Fighting Style to get +DEX to offhand damage. And better than PAM since it'd do 1 more damage on average, and it doesn't require being STR-based or spending a feat.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Keeping a free hand for Material/Somatic component spellcasting, and shoving people with the Telekinetic feat. :smallbiggrin:

Or keeping a free hand for Material/Somatic component spellcasting, and shooting people a second time with a hand crossbow using the Crossbow Expert feat. :smallwink:



If you're going to dip anyway, a Monk 1/Bladesinger X wouldn't need to be STR-based, or spend a feat to get a d4 BA attack. You'd just have to be able to swing the 13 WIS prerequisite, which could be tricky.

In fact, going Lizardfolk Monk 1/Bladesinger X would both eliminate the need for Mage Armor (since you'd have racial AC of 13+DEX) and also bump the BA attack damage to d6. Better than trying to TWF with shortswords, since it doesn't require drawing two weapons, or tying up both hands to cramp your spellcasting, or require gaining a Fighting Style to get +DEX to offhand damage. And better than PAM since it'd do 1 more damage on average, and it doesn't require being STR-based or spending a feat.

Some good ideas here. Seems like you agree with my thoughts that a fair investment into feats and/ or a dip is pretty much a requirement to make this subclass somewhat decent at the fighting part of a Gish.
Just to clarify, I don't actually think this is a bad subclass. In fact I think it is a very good way of making a more robust Wizard that avoids the ubiquitous Cleric dip to shore up defense and who can survive the odd time the party gets jumped or enemies get closer than planned. It just doesn't seem like it's very viable or efficient in spell slots to expect to front line with a Bladesinger.

[shipiaozi]

The Bladesinger post-Tasha's answers all of this.

Crazy AC and spell-slot-less damage output that can be competitive, leaving their spell slots available to be a full-ass Wizard.

Literally the most Gishy feature in the game: Use a cantrip in place of an extra attack. Exploit to BB or get creative as the situation demands. Crazy Options.

Burn spell slots for defense. Oh, you also have Shield and Absorb Elements, so..

They literally gave the wizard class a way to keep up with almost any martial class by just fighting in melee. Plus, you know, all the Wizard stuff.

Blade singer have worse AC than a normal character, bladesong have much worse AC than medium or heavy armor a wizard normally use, in addition it would cost a bonus action.
A pure bladesinger or bladesinger/cleric 1 is not very capable of melee combat. You could have PAM and -5+10 but no Reckless Attack, action surge or other abilities to compete with real melee DPS. A pure Bladesinger is a wizard with better cantrip, not a capable Gish.

[arnin77]

{scrubbed}

[arnin77]

{scrubbed}. By your own definition the Gish combines martial and magic capabilities. Martial can be ranged or melee. A Paladin or Ranger are technically gishes.

The builds you are describing are “buffers” who are only helping themselves during melee combat which is a poor choice if your enemy is able to stay at range. A Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 can quicken fireball to help deal many foes then attack with a booming blade and smite on top of that. But that’s ineffective to you?

{scrubbed}

[Witty Username]

Divine smite isn't a very useful ability for Paladin due to lacks of spell slots, yet more powerful for a caster-based Gish. Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is a pretty bad build, with no extra attack and too many ways to spend resources. The best such builds are College of Swords and Bladesinger, both could perform 2+1 attacks with divine smite. Such Divine smite build should rarely cast spell in combat, probably only in first turn, with reaction or after combat to save spell slots for Divine Smite.

I Believe you should take a look at this thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass) But it includes a section on how green-flame blade can out perform extra attack on some paladin builds, and justify paladin 1-4.


Blade singer have worse AC than a normal character, bladesong have much worse AC than medium or heavy armor a wizard normally use, in addition it would cost a bonus action.
A pure bladesinger or bladesinger/cleric 1 is not very capable of melee combat. You could have PAM and -5+10 but no Reckless Attack, action surge or other abilities to compete with real melee DPS. A pure Bladesinger is a wizard with better cantrip, not a capable Gish.
Without blade song you will tend to have rogue AC. AC 15, maybe AC17 if you invest in dex
With blade song you will have AC 18-22 depending on your stat allotment, which is better than most heavy armor builds.
Cantrip weapon attack + weapon attack is the thing to let them compete with martial DPS. An extra 2d8 on their line plus 3d8 if they move is a lot of damage as is extra 2d8+5 to two different targets.
Your main problem is by T3-4 you are doing that instead of telling reality too "Sit! Stay! Good Boy!"

[shipiaozi]

I Believe you should take a look at this thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass) But it includes a section on how green-flame blade can out perform extra attack on some paladin builds, and justify paladin 1-4.


Without blade song you will tend to have rogue AC. AC 15, maybe AC17 if you invest in dex
With blade song you will have AC 18-22 depending on your stat allotment, which is better than most heavy armor builds.
Cantrip weapon attack + weapon attack is the thing to let them compete with martial DPS. An extra 2d8 on their line plus 3d8 if they move is a lot of damage as is extra 2d8+5 to two different targets.
Your main problem is by T3-4 you are doing that instead of telling reality too "Sit! Stay! Good Boy!"

The calculation is flawed, he use longsword as base damage which is a horrible base.
A capable dps need more than 2+1 attacks with -5+10, such as advantage+stunning strike, All kinds of "two blade cantrip per turn" are even worse than this baseline.

A normal wizard build have 18-19AC in T1, and 26AC finally without waste any feat on intelligence.

[Quietus]

I'm kind of confused at what you mean by 'smite builds'. I'm planning a Paladin 2/ Swords Bard X with PAM (spear) to play through roughly 12th level. Will he be able to smite? Yes. Will he be a (nearly) full caster? Yes. Will he have multi-attack? Yes.
I'm struggling to see how a character who can cast (for example) Slow or Bless then wade into combat with full armor, a shield, and 3+ attacks per round (with smite if I choose) doesn't work. I'm also trying to figure out what sacrifices I made that weren't worth it; I mean 2 Paladin levels cost me 1 caster level and then there's the trade off of all the things you get for Paladin 2 vs the 2 Bard levels I would have had. Doesn't really seem that bad.
I guess I'll find out, as we start playing in a couple of weeks.

I can assure you, 2 Paladin/X Swords Bard plays just fine. I did one myself, I did go dex style half elf with the Dueling and Defense fighting styles. It was a tiny bit awkward between 5-8, because I didn't have PAM so I only had one attack, but the core gameplay loop of "Cast fight-defining spell turn 1, go into combat turn 2+" was there and worked very well. Once I hit 8, my effectiveness doubled with that second attack, and I never looked back.

I had the advantage that I was not the front line character- my wife was, with a half-orc 6/X Paladin/Sorc, who typically relied on Hunter's Mark and Shadow Blade instead of smites. My AC was around 19, maybe 21 with magic items, which is perfectly respectable as a second line character. And by the time that's starting to lose some lustre, you'll have hit level 8, have those game-defining third level spells and extra attack, and a "merely solid" AC was just fine when my first action would typically shut down 1/2 to 3/4 of the enemy combatants. We actually upset the healer at one point, because they didn't need to do much healing. :smallredface:

[Mitchellnotes]

The calculation is flawed, he use longsword as base damage which is a horrible base.
A capable dps need more than 2+1 attacks with -5+10, such as advantage+stunning strike, All kinds of "two blade cantrip per turn" are even worse than this baseline.

A normal wizard build have 18-19AC in T1, and 26AC finally without waste any feat on intelligence.

The idea that you have to have sharpshooter/GWM to stay competitive with dps is inaccurate. For people using booming blade/green flame blade, you risk losing DPS compared to using GWM because the +10 damage is less of the overall damage then just using a melee attack. This is even more true if you can add additional damage to the cantrip and the higher level you go. Unless you can reaaalllly mitigate the accuracy lost,it just isn't as necessary.

Also, you're "normal wizard" isn't "normal," as it is likely a dip and i think other conversations have established that dumping int isn't a strategy most people employ.

I'm not sure how far this conversation is going to go as i'm not sure what you are even thinking of as a gish. There have already been lots of examples provided in this thread for gishes.

Edit: just to add that based on what you've outlined, a pure hexblade blade pact might be exactly what you are looking for since it can combine GWM with elvish accuracy and get double +cha to damage while smiting. If i were focused on that sort of playstyle, I'd probably go that route.

[Witty Username]

A normal wizard build have 18-19AC in T1, and 26AC finally without waste any feat on intelligence.
Pics or it didn't happen.

[LordShade]

I think Ship is assuming cleric or artificer 1 dips on these wizard builds, plus non-attunement magic armor and shields in T3-4. In previous posts he's assumed that fighters would have access to things like Staffs of Power, and hence he has advised that PAM fighters should dip Wiz/Sorc/Warlock 1 in order to use the staff. It's possible that the Chinese D&D community plays in more magic-rich games than the English-speaking community does, and that's why we find his assumptions difficult to accept.

Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard X, with a shield+3 and half-plate+3, has passive AC 25... so his numbers are "right," assuming the same access to magic items. By this formulation, the Bladesinger is missing at a minimum 5 points of passive AC from the shield+3, and an additional 4 points due to downgrading from half-plate+3 to studded leather+3.

[shipiaozi]

The idea that you have to have sharpshooter/GWM to stay competitive with dps is inaccurate. For people using booming blade/green flame blade, you risk losing DPS compared to using GWM because the +10 damage is less of the overall damage then just using a melee attack. This is even more true if you can add additional damage to the cantrip and the higher level you go. Unless you can reaaalllly mitigate the accuracy lost,it just isn't as necessary.

Also, you're "normal wizard" isn't "normal," as it is likely a dip and i think other conversations have established that dumping int isn't a strategy most people employ.

I'm not sure how far this conversation is going to go as i'm not sure what you are even thinking of as a gish. There have already been lots of examples provided in this thread for gishes.

Edit: just to add that based on what you've outlined, a pure hexblade blade pact might be exactly what you are looking for since it can combine GWM with elvish accuracy and get double +cha to damage while smiting. If i were focused on that sort of playstyle, I'd probably go that route.

Anyone with extra attack could get 2+1 attacks with +10-5 in level 8, so not a high standard. 2 blade cantrips deal much less damage than 2+1 attacks with +10-5, nice as sorcerer cantrip but very bad for a weapon dps. Your hexblade is capable of dps but far from good. The character can't use Str item, elvish accuracy is not a good feat, some small buff, three lv5 spell slots per short rest and one lv6/lv7 spell slot in T3 is not a great build. A Sword bard 10 /Paladin 2 have more damage, better defense, better spellcasting and extra utilities.

A normal wizard should wear medium or heave armor and never waste feat on int, otherwise the build is probably pretty bad. I have prove it so many times, the value gap is huge.


I think Ship is assuming cleric or artificer 1 dips on these wizard builds, plus non-attunement magic armor and shields in T3-4. In previous posts he's assumed that fighters would have access to things like Staffs of Power, and hence he has advised that PAM fighters should dip Wiz/Sorc/Warlock 1 in order to use the staff. It's possible that the Chinese D&D community plays in more magic-rich games than the English-speaking community does, and that's why we find his assumptions difficult to accept.

Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard X, with a shield+3 and half-plate+3, has passive AC 25... so his numbers are "right," assuming the same access to magic items. By this formulation, the Bladesinger is missing at a minimum 5 points of passive AC from the shield+3, and an additional 4 points due to downgrading from half-plate+3 to studded leather+3.

It's not about magic-rich, it's mostly about the inefficiency of ability boost and the efficiency of multiclass Cleric.
Multiclass other casters cost caster very little, spell known loss is not a big deal.
Meanwhile, waste a feat on caster ability+2 is unacceptable for wizard, sorcerer, druid or cleric. Bladesinger would have 15-16/18-19AC in very long time when a normal wizard's AC increased as he gets better armor and shield. In adventure league game a cleric/wizard have 18/19AC in lv5, while a bladesinger have roughly 17AC. Don't use bladesong AC as real AC, enemy could attack before your turn and sometimes you have no bladesong available.

Staff and other staff-like items perform better in martials' hand. Fight want multiclass sorcerer (or wizard/hexblade in rare case) because double cast AOE at beginning of combat is probably the best thing a character could do in T2-T3. I supposed a team should have a staff in T2, and no one is more suitable to use them than fighter.

[Unoriginal]

I think Ship is assuming cleric or artificer 1 dips on these wizard builds, plus non-attunement magic armor and shields in T3-4. In previous posts he's assumed that fighters would have access to things like Staffs of Power, and hence he has advised that PAM fighters should dip Wiz/Sorc/Warlock 1 in order to use the staff. It's possible that the Chinese D&D community plays in more magic-rich games than the English-speaking community does, and that's why we find his assumptions difficult to accept.

Shipiaozi's assumptions and hypotheses aren't likely to be based on the ones of Chinese- and English-speaking D&D community, given how much they disagreed with people presenting those assumptions and hypotheses in the past.

But even if using different assumptions, that doesn't change that many of shipiaozi's calculations and arguments are plainly incorrect.

[Mitchellnotes]

Anyone with extra attack could get 2+1 attacks with +10-5 in level 8, so not a high standard. 2 blade cantrips deal much less damage than 2+1 attacks with +10-5, nice as sorcerer cantrip but very bad for a weapon dps. Your hexblade is capable of dps but far from good. The character can't use Str item, elvish accuracy is not a good feat, some small buff, three lv5 spell slots per short rest and one lv6/lv7 spell slot in T3 is not a great build. A Sword bard 10 /Paladin 2 have more damage, better defense, better spellcasting and extra utilities.

A normal wizard should wear medium or heave armor and never waste feat on int, otherwise the build is probably pretty bad. I have prove it so many times, the value gap is huge.

?? alright, if you say the hexblade is suboptimal, let's see your build to compare. Additionally, I don't think you have "proven" much related to the wizard.

At level 12, a pure hexblade would have:

- 3 feats - take Elvish Accuracy, GWM, and then either an ASI for +2 cha (to get 20) or res. con (for +prof to con saves) or polearm master (for extra bonus action attack)
- 6 invocations - taking at a minimum thirsting blade, lifedrinker, eldritch mind, maybe improved pact weapon (if a magic weapon hasn't been found), eldritch smite, devil's sight, and having space for extra options (maybe the aura that does cha damage? other utility items?)
- 3 5th level spell slots that regenerate on a short rest
- hexblade curse that comes back on a short rest (note that this also increases the crit range)

the hexblade can open pretty easily with shadows of moil (giving self advantage on attacks and disadvantage to be attacked), which with EA means that you can roll 3 die to hit, upping the accuracy using GWM, which hits for your weapon damage +20 (if boosting CHA to 20 at 12). You also have for each attack a 15% change to smite due to elvish accuracy, which if you do, would be the time to use your eldritch smite for an additional 12d6 damage

the hexblade can easily start with a 14 dex (all you'd need with medium armor), and 14-15 con (which would be boosted when taking res. con later)

at 12, your swords bard has 1 level 6 slot, but no level 6 spells, you'd have the same number of attacks, but less feats, and you'd have bardic inspiration die, but you'd be MAD. You'd have slots of 4/3/3/3/2/2/1, so you'd have the same number of slots 5+ for smites in the short rest, but the hexblade would pull ahead of the max level smites after (depending upon any slots used for other things like buffs/etc), though the bard would have more total slots to potentially spend. bard may come ahead a little bit on that, but the hexblade also crit fishes much better and would end up having better accuracy due to EA

so the difference is that the warlock can double dip charisma for additional damage vs. the swords bards ability to use bardic inspiration. Being MAD with 2 feats (of which one has to be GWM, and probably polearm master as the 2nd?), unless you are a variant human, you'd only have those feats. Even if you are variant human, you may get the third feat, but have at most a 16-17 str (or dex)/cha

I'm failing to see why the hexblade is so much worse than the swords bard, care to share your counter example?

What's really funny... you may be better off going fighter/bard and picking up swiftquiver for a sharpshooter bard build...

[Witty Username]

But spell level progression is significant, getting access to 3rd, 5th, 6th, or 9th level spells a level late will hurt within those level spaces. 7th and 8th not as much because the spells are not all that strong of a jump.
As for magic items, it depends on how may tomes you get by that point, a bladesingers AC is theoretically AC of 30 if you assume 30 score hard cap after tomes. This is why we don't tend to assume magic access.

[LordShade]

It's not about magic-rich, it's mostly about the inefficiency of ability boost and the efficiency of multiclass Cleric.
Multiclass other casters cost caster very little, spell known loss is not a big deal.
Meanwhile, waste a feat on caster ability+2 is unacceptable for wizard, sorcerer, druid or cleric. Bladesinger would have 15-16/18-19AC in very long time when a normal wizard's AC increased as he gets better armor and shield. In adventure league game a cleric/wizard have 18/19AC in lv5, while a bladesinger have roughly 17AC. Don't use bladesong AC as real AC, enemy could attack before your turn and sometimes you have no bladesong available.

Ok, so I understand part of this argument but not other parts. I agree that Bladesong AC isn't 100% reliable, and moreover requires a heavy investment in ASIs assuming point buy. I also agree that Cleric 1 is highly efficient for many arcane caster builds.

What I'm not following is which feats you think a Cleric 1/Wizard X should be taking instead of Int+2. Alert? Lucky? Inspiring Leader? Warcaster? Resilient? Exactly those 5?



Staff and other staff-like items perform better in martials' hand. Fight want multiclass sorcerer (or wizard/hexblade in rare case) because double cast AOE at beginning of combat is probably the best thing a character could do in T2-T3. I supposed a team should have a staff in T2, and no one is more suitable to use them than fighter.

I see, I think I finally understand this point. A Staff of the Magi essentially functions like having several levels in a spellcasting class (since it's a magical battery that recharges on its own, and has its own spell slots and spells known) that doesn't stack with existing spellcaster levels. What you are saying is that if the party is level 9 and a Staff of the Magi drops, it's best if you give it to the level 9 fighter (who then takes a level of sorcerer at level 10) so that he can Action Surge with it and drop two upcasted fireballs in Round 1, and then revert to using normal fighter abilities for the rest of the battle. If you give it to the Cleric 1/Wizard X, that doesn't really add anything new in terms of capabilities to the caster (just allows him to do more of what he was already doing).

That's interesting, I never thought about it this way.

[LordShade]

But spell level progression is significant, getting access to 3rd, 5th, 6th, or 9th level spells a level late will hurt within those level spaces. 7th and 8th not as much because the spells are not all that strong of a jump.
As for magic items, it depends on how may tomes you get by that point, a bladesingers AC is theoretically AC of 30 if you assume 30 score hard cap after tomes. This is why we don't tend to assume magic access.

Would you be willing to make any assumption on the relative rarity of magic item access? I'd assume that magical armor and shields are vastly more common than magic tomes.

Ship seems to be using AL modules as a guideline--I think there are way more non-attunement armor and shields in AL than there are tomes, but I don't play AL so I don't know for sure. Further, it appears that AL has a rule that you can only benefit from each type of tome once:

You can only benefit from a magic item that grants the same permanent benefit once (e.g., tome of understanding, bag of beans, etc.). This guidance is retroactive. Further, items that bestowed a persistent effect (such as a manual of golems, via wishes from luck blades, etc.) count against that character’s Magic Item Limit for as long as they retain the benefit—even if they don’t own the item or it has lost its magical properties. You can choose to replace or abandon the item as normal, but in so doing, the benefits it conveyed (resistance to damage, ability score increases, etc.) are lost.

[Witty Username]

Eh, not really any that can be applied generally.
My last game I played in, I think we had a +3 object (I had a weapon, the Paladin had armor) by the end, 18th level. But we also got 2 belts of cloud giant strength (one for our Paladin, one for our monk. Also, armor choice gets odd, at least anecdotally lighter armors are more likely to be magical as well as non-end point armors( and breastplate unusually high) but overall that is probably too small a sample size from me to mean much.
Beyond +1 likely, +2 possible, +3 unlikely. I can't really say anything that would be at all that helpful unfortunately.

[KorvinStarmast]

I supposed a team should have a staff in T2, and no one is more suitable to use them than fighter. A monk gets a staff as basic equipment at level 1. Hell, anyone can: they are simple weapons.
What staff are you referring to in T2 in your post?
Why should a fighter use a staff? (While I am guessing one armed pole arm mastery + shield cheese, spear can do that just as well as a staff).
EDIT: Staff of the Magi drops in Tier 2? Is that the assumption this is built upon? Yes, that is "Magic Rich" (Sounds like twinking a Diablo II character in Act 1 with a few sets and with Stones of Jordan. :smallyuk:)
Staff, legendary (requires attunement by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard)

This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff that grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. While you hold it, you gain a +2 bonus to spell attack rolls. The staff has 50 charges for the following properties. It regains 4d6 + 2 expended charges daily at dawn. If you expend the last charge, roll a d20. On a 20, the staff regains 1d12 + 1 charges.
Spell Absorption. While holding the staff, you have advantage on saving throws against spells. In addition, you can use your reaction when another creature casts a spell that targets only you. If you do, the staff absorbs the magic of the spell, canceling its effect and gaining a number of charges equal to the absorbed spell’s level. However, if doing so brings the staff’s total number of charges above 50, the staff explodes as if you activated its retributive strike (see below).
Spells. While holding the staff, you can use an action to expend some of its charges to cast one of the following spells from it, using your spell save DC and spellcasting ability: conjure elemental (7 charges), dispel magic (3 charges), fireball (7th-*‐‑level version, 7 charges), flaming sphere (2 charges), ice storm (4 charges), invisibility (2 charges), knock (2 charges), lightning bolt (7th-*‐‑level version, 7 charges), passwall (5 charges), plane shift (7 charges), telekinesis (5 charges), wall of fire (4 charges), or web (2 charges).
You can also use an action to cast one of the following spells from the staff without using any charges: arcane lock, detect magic, enlarge/reduce, d, or protection from evil and good. I'll say this: at will web can set up a lot of attacks with advantage. :smallbiggrin:

Note: Staff of Power is 'only' very rare and does something similar but at a lower scale and is a +2 / +2 magical weapon.

[Mitchellnotes]

EDIT: Staff of the Magi drops in Tier 2? Is that the assumption this is built upon? Yes, that is "Magic Rich" (Sounds like twinking a Diablo II character in Act 1 with a few sets and with Stones of Jordan. :smallyuk:)

I think that is the assertion. Ship makes the assertion that the best thing a fighter can do in tier 2 is action surge aoe. Im guessing aoe here is fireball, which would be fighter 2/sorc 5 (not exactly a fighter main at that point), which means fighter with dip and magic items

[shipiaozi]

I was quite busy in real life last week, sorry for late response.


I think that is the assertion. Ship makes the assertion that the best thing a fighter can do in tier 2 is action surge aoe. Im guessing aoe here is fireball, which would be fighter 2/sorc 5 (not exactly a fighter main at that point), which means fighter with dip and magic items

Not at all.
Caster X/Fighter 2 are one of the horrible builds people love, unacceptable spell slots lost only for action surge.
Fighter X/Caster 1 to use staff is a great build, loss almost nothing while greatly boost your action surge.


Ok, so I understand part of this argument but not other parts. I agree that Bladesong AC isn't 100% reliable, and moreover requires a heavy investment in ASIs assuming point buy. I also agree that Cleric 1 is highly efficient for many arcane caster builds.

What I'm not following is which feats you think a Cleric 1/Wizard X should be taking instead of Int+2. Alert? Lucky? Inspiring Leader? Warcaster? Resilient? Exactly those 5?


Inspiring Leader(If no others in team want take it) >> Warcaster and Lucky > Alert and Tough > Resilient()



?? alright, if you say the hexblade is suboptimal, let's see your build to compare. Additionally, I don't think you have "proven" much related to the wizard.

At level 12, a pure hexblade would have:

- 3 feats - take Elvish Accuracy, GWM, and then either an ASI for +2 cha (to get 20) or res. con (for +prof to con saves) or polearm master (for extra bonus action attack)
- 6 invocations - taking at a minimum thirsting blade, lifedrinker, eldritch mind, maybe improved pact weapon (if a magic weapon hasn't been found), eldritch smite, devil's sight, and having space for extra options (maybe the aura that does cha damage? other utility items?)
- 3 5th level spell slots that regenerate on a short rest
- hexblade curse that comes back on a short rest (note that this also increases the crit range)

the hexblade can open pretty easily with shadows of moil (giving self advantage on attacks and disadvantage to be attacked), which with EA means that you can roll 3 die to hit, upping the accuracy using GWM, which hits for your weapon damage +20 (if boosting CHA to 20 at 12). You also have for each attack a 15% change to smite due to elvish accuracy, which if you do, would be the time to use your eldritch smite for an additional 12d6 damage

the hexblade can easily start with a 14 dex (all you'd need with medium armor), and 14-15 con (which would be boosted when taking res. con later)

at 12, your swords bard has 1 level 6 slot, but no level 6 spells, you'd have the same number of attacks, but less feats, and you'd have bardic inspiration die, but you'd be MAD. You'd have slots of 4/3/3/3/2/2/1, so you'd have the same number of slots 5+ for smites in the short rest, but the hexblade would pull ahead of the max level smites after (depending upon any slots used for other things like buffs/etc), though the bard would have more total slots to potentially spend. bard may come ahead a little bit on that, but the hexblade also crit fishes much better and would end up having better accuracy due to EA

so the difference is that the warlock can double dip charisma for additional damage vs. the swords bards ability to use bardic inspiration. Being MAD with 2 feats (of which one has to be GWM, and probably polearm master as the 2nd?), unless you are a variant human, you'd only have those feats. Even if you are variant human, you may get the third feat, but have at most a 16-17 str (or dex)/cha

I'm failing to see why the hexblade is so much worse than the swords bard, care to share your counter example?

What's really funny... you may be better off going fighter/bard and picking up swiftquiver for a sharpshooter bard build...


Hexblade is good as multiclass, but lacks key spells or class abilities to success.
Swiftguiver is a garbage spell for beginning of the edition, doing nothing in first two turns as lv5 spells, no idea why so many players love it. 5e's ranged weapon are far more powerful than melee ones, even pure Paladin is better as ranged dps if he don't have STR-items.

First, there are some pretty bad choice in your hexblade build:
1)Elvish Accuracy is not a good feat in general, ranged advantage are hard to get while melee hexblade is incompatible with str-items, in addition elf is a quite weak class in 5e, by pick elf one would loss a lot of values. Shadows of moil + Elvish Accuracy package is quite weak, cast summon spells deal more damage.

Hex blade have following abilities in additional to 2+1 attacks and +10-5, assume 6 encounter and 2 short res:
1) One lv6 spell and five lv5 spell at beginning of combat
2) Smite 4*lv5 = 24d8
3) Sperter
4) One extra feat
5) Extra damage from hexblade curse, about 4.25*6 attacks on average*3=76 damage before attack roll

Sword Bard have following abilities:
1) One lv6 spell, two lv5 spells and three lv4 spells at beginning of combat, better than hexblade's spell
2) Smite 3*lv2+3*lv3= 21d8, extra 8d8 from lv1 spells but usually better used for reaction spells
3) Familiar and Mount, more dps than sperter
4) Nine inspiring dice: 9d10, about +2 AC
5) -2con, -3init, +2AC from heavy armor and hexblade’s curse

Looks very close, but probably in reality hexblade would perform worse than calculated.

[Mitchellnotes]

First, there are some pretty bad choice in your hexblade build:
1)Elvish Accuracy is not a good feat in general, ranged advantage are hard to get while melee hexblade is incompatible with str-items, in addition elf is a quite weak class in 5e, by pick elf one would loss a lot of values. Shadows of moil + Elvish Accuracy package is quite weak, cast summon spells deal more damage.

Out of curiosity, what magic items are you assuming your gish would get? I think part of the reason you get pushback is that it appears you are assuming access to items that most others wouldn't. I don't assume access to stat boosting items, nor any magical item (except likely some sort of magic weapon). Sure, if you csn boost str to over 20, elvish accuracy may not be as good, but my assumption is that either 1) its not available or 2) someone else could make better use of a belt of giant str since my character easily hits 20 in its primary stat.

Also just to add that earlier you said hexblade was "far from good" but now its "pretty close"? The build i presented isnt even really optimized, just pretty standard. When you share what items you assume are available, we'll see what can be modified for optimization.

[Frogreaver]

Gish is a character with combination of martial/spellcasting abilities. By this definition alone, we could immediately know most martial or spellcasting boost works poorly on Gish characters. A full martial could benefits 100% from martial resources, a full spellcasters could benefits 100% from spellcasting resources, while a gish only benefits 50-70% from such resources. As we all know, simply mix martial and spellcasting class would result into extremely weak characters who are neither capable of martial nor spellcasting. What Gish looking for, are spellcasting resources for martial character or martial resources for spellcasters.

There are two types of Gish resources in 5e: Staff-like items and Divine Smite. As a result, there are two types of Gish in 5e: martial multiclass into sorcerer, and caster multiclass Paladin 2

Staffs are more powerful when martials use them, especially with quicken metamagic. Martials usually have no way to use concentration, lacks AOE ability and have standard action attack far better than cantrip. Attack three times and cast a fireball with bonus action is the best thing a dps could do in T3.

Divine smite isn't a very useful ability for Paladin due to lacks of spell slots, yet more powerful for a caster-based Gish. Sorcerer X/Paladin 2 is a pretty bad build, with no extra attack and too many ways to spend resources. The best such builds are College of Swords and Bladesinger, both could perform 2+1 attacks with divine smite. Such Divine smite build should rarely cast spell in combat, probably only in first turn, with reaction or after combat to save spell slots for Divine Smite.

To answer your question we first need to understand why the current class/subclasses don't work as Gishes for you?

Valor Bard
Sword Bard
Whispers Bard
Arcana Cleric
Nature Cleric
Four Elements Monk
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Trickster
Any Ranger
Any Paladin
Hexblade
Bladesinger
Blade Singer
Armorer Artificer
Battlesmith Artificer

[shipiaozi]

Out of curiosity, what magic items are you assuming your gish would get? I think part of the reason you get pushback is that it appears you are assuming access to items that most others wouldn't. I don't assume access to stat boosting items, nor any magical item (except likely some sort of magic weapon). Sure, if you csn boost str to over 20, elvish accuracy may not be as good, but my assumption is that either 1) its not available or 2) someone else could make better use of a belt of giant str since my character easily hits 20 in its primary stat.

Also just to add that earlier you said hexblade was "far from good" but now its "pretty close"? The build i presented isnt even really optimized, just pretty standard. When you share what items you assume are available, we'll see what can be modified for optimization.

Any melee dps should have high chance to get str-item, otherwise all melee builds but Monk/Barbarian should be considered as bad.

Your hexblade build is far worse but I improved it a lot by given up darkness + elvish accuracy and make it the most optimized hexblade build. Although it looks very close to sword bard, in real game hexblade should still perform much worse like a warlock typically would due to following reasons:
1) Average short rest is less than 2, 9lv5+1lv6 looks close to full caster 4/3/3/3/2/1, but does anyone really believe hexblade have spell slots on par with a full caster?
2) Hexblade can't have a flexible use of spell slot. Sometimes you don't want to use spell slots in weak encounter, sometimes you want to use more.
3) Not capable of healing


To answer your question we first need to understand why the current class/subclasses don't work as Gishes for you?

Valor Bard
Sword Bard
Whispers Bard
Arcana Cleric
Nature Cleric
Four Elements Monk
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Trickster
Any Ranger
Any Paladin
Hexblade
Bladesinger
Blade Singer
Armorer Artificer
Battlesmith Artificer

All subclass without extra attack here are not capable weapon dps, let alone gish.
Spell don't play important role in Ranger/Artificer/Paladin's combat.
Hexblade is Gish, but it's not a good build in most cases.

[Frogreaver]

All subclass without extra attack here are not capable weapon dps, let alone gish.
Spell don't play important role in Ranger/Artificer/Paladin's combat.
Hexblade is Gish, but it's not a good build in most cases.

Okay, so it's primarily about weapon DPS.
It's primarily about how important a role spells play. (Divine Smite isn't being considered a spell in this context by you).

I think I got it.

I'm not sure what makes the Hexblade a bad gish. Is it the damage or something else? And if it's the damage how much damage do you expect/need?

In terms of hexblade damage, consider this hexblade build:

Level 5 Variant Human (Feat = PAM) (Subclass = Hexblade) (Invocations = Blade Pact, Eldritch Mind, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade) (Level 4 ASI = Resilient Con) (Concentration Spell = Spirit Shroud)

Attack +7 Damage 1d6+4+1d8+1d6+4+1d8+1d4+4+1d8 = 35 avg (*Hexblades Curse has not been used/accounted for)


Level 10 Variant Human (Feat = PAM) (Subclass = Hexblade) (Invocations = Blade Pact, Eldritch Mind, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade) (Level 4 ASI = Resilient Con) (Concentration Spell = Spirit Shroud)

Attack +9 Damage 1d6+5+2d8+2d6+5+1d8+1d4+5+2d8 = 51.5 avg (*Hexblades Curse has not been used/accounted for)


Level 12 Variant Human (Feat = PAM) (Subclass = Hexblade) (Invocations = Blade Pact, Eldritch Mind, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker) (Level 4 ASI = Resilient Con) (Concentration Spell = Spirit Shroud)

Attack +10 Damage 1d6+11+2d8+2d6+11+1d8+1d4+11+2d8 = 69.5 avg (*Hexblades Curse has not been used/accounted for)

[Mitchellnotes]

Any melee dps should have high chance to get str-item, otherwise all melee builds but Monk/Barbarian should be considered as bad.

I'm sorry, but no. You can't assume items and compare a build with those items to something that doesn't get any.

For instance, give the elvish accuracy hexblade a vorpal sword. Why not, right? Any melee would have a chance at it. A 15% chance of insta-kill per attack on most attacks and another 15% chance of a crit (which you would then expend a smite on) seems pretty good to me, no str item required.

If you are going to build around getting specific items then not shate what those items are, then it is impossible to have a conversation and your assertions are meaningless without sharing what goes into them.

[Zuras]

Ok, so I understand part of this argument but not other parts. I agree that Bladesong AC isn't 100% reliable, and moreover requires a heavy investment in ASIs assuming point buy. I also agree that Cleric 1 is highly efficient for many arcane caster builds.

What I'm not following is which feats you think a Cleric 1/Wizard X should be taking instead of Int+2. Alert? Lucky? Inspiring Leader? Warcaster? Resilient? Exactly those 5?



I see, I think I finally understand this point. A Staff of the Magi essentially functions like having several levels in a spellcasting class (since it's a magical battery that recharges on its own, and has its own spell slots and spells known) that doesn't stack with existing spellcaster levels. What you are saying is that if the party is level 9 and a Staff of the Magi drops, it's best if you give it to the level 9 fighter (who then takes a level of sorcerer at level 10) so that he can Action Surge with it and drop two upcasted fireballs in Round 1, and then revert to using normal fighter abilities for the rest of the battle. If you give it to the Cleric 1/Wizard X, that doesn't really add anything new in terms of capabilities to the caster (just allows him to do more of what he was already doing).

That's interesting, I never thought about it this way.

The same basic logic works for any AoE generating item, as well as extra spell items like a Necklace of Prayer Beads.

Best PC to take the wand of fireballs is the Arcane Trickster, since they have Magical Ambush and are otherwise weak against large hordes. For the Wizard, by 9th level it’s going to be very late in the Adventuring Day before the extra fireballs make a real difference to their 3 turn average damage.

Similarly, a Ring of Spell Storing goes much further on a character with no existing spells—giving the Battlemaster Fighter a couple of Healing Words to bring the Cleric back up if they go down is vastly better than giving the cleric a few more spell slots. A Necklace of Prayer Beads also works much better on a Paladin (their concentration isn’t under-utilized by keeping up a 1st level Bless spell, and they don’t natively have the bonus action healing it provides either).

The exact details vary by situation, but it’s often about either giving PCs capabilities they lack or the specific action and concentration economy involved.

[shipiaozi]

Okay, so it's primarily about weapon DPS.
It's primarily about how important a role spells play. (Divine Smite isn't being considered a spell in this context by you).

I think I got it.

I'm not sure what makes the Hexblade a bad gish. Is it the damage or something else? And if it's the damage how much damage do you expect/need?

In terms of hexblade damage, consider this hexblade build:

Level 5 Variant Human (Feat = PAM) (Subclass = Hexblade) (Invocations = Blade Pact, Eldritch Mind, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade) (Level 4 ASI = Resilient Con) (Concentration Spell = Spirit Shroud)

Attack +7 Damage 1d6+4+1d8+1d6+4+1d8+1d4+4+1d8 = 35 avg (*Hexblades Curse has not been used/accounted for)


Level 10 Variant Human (Feat = PAM) (Subclass = Hexblade) (Invocations = Blade Pact, Eldritch Mind, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade) (Level 4 ASI = Resilient Con) (Concentration Spell = Spirit Shroud)

Attack +9 Damage 1d6+5+2d8+2d6+5+1d8+1d4+5+2d8 = 51.5 avg (*Hexblades Curse has not been used/accounted for)


Level 12 Variant Human (Feat = PAM) (Subclass = Hexblade) (Invocations = Blade Pact, Eldritch Mind, Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker) (Level 4 ASI = Resilient Con) (Concentration Spell = Spirit Shroud)

Attack +10 Damage 1d6+11+2d8+2d6+11+1d8+1d4+11+2d8 = 69.5 avg (*Hexblades Curse has not been used/accounted for)

Divine smite is a spell, but not am important class feature for Paladin due to lack of spell slots. The most common mistake in play Paladin is to use too many Divine smite.
The major advantage of hexblade are spell casting outside of 2+1 attacks and -5+10, yet all casters with extra attack could do better even without Paladin multiclass.
BTW, Spirit Shroud is a bad spell and always worse than even Tasha summons.


I'm sorry, but no. You can't assume items and compare a build with those items to something that doesn't get any.

For instance, give the elvish accuracy hexblade a vorpal sword. Why not, right? Any melee would have a chance at it. A 15% chance of insta-kill per attack on most attacks and another 15% chance of a crit (which you would then expend a smite on) seems pretty good to me, no str item required.

If you are going to build around getting specific items then not shate what those items are, then it is impossible to have a conversation and your assertions are meaningless without sharing what goes into them.

Without str-item, you need to admit most melee builds are bad. Why play melee when ranged weapon deal similar or even more damage?

With vorpal sword, elvish accuracy is still bad, the loss from bonus action attack/darkness spell/race/feat/no str-items are far greater than +10 crit increase. The build is probably worse than a normal hexblade 2+1 build because the loss of bonus action attack...

In addition, vorpal is a medium legendary item you can't get until lv17, but str-items are best items in their tier existed from uncommon to legendary and could be get in lv2.

[Mitchellnotes]

Without str-item, you need to admit most melee builds are bad. Why play melee when ranged weapon deal similar or even more damage?

With vorpal sword, elvish accuracy is still bad, the loss from bonus action attack/darkness spell/race/feat/no str-items are far greater than +10 crit increase. The build is probably worse than a normal hexblade 2+1 build because the loss of bonus action attack...

In addition, vorpal is a medium legendary item you can't get until lv17, but str-items are best items in their tier existed from uncommon to legendary and could be get in lv2.

You didn't answer the question though. What magic items or magic item access does your build assume? I am not going to continue this conversation without this, because i don't even know the reference point you are working from.

[Frogreaver]

Divine smite is a spell, but not am important class feature for Paladin due to lack of spell slots. The most common mistake in play Paladin is to use too many Divine smite.

I think you undervalue 'damage now' that is concentration free.


The major advantage of hexblade are spell casting outside of 2+1 attacks and -5+10, yet all casters with extra attack could do better even without Paladin multiclass.

All casters with extra attack could do better than the hexblade at melee damage? Care to demonstrate that assertion?


BTW, Spirit Shroud is a bad spell and always worse than even Tasha summons.

In the context of everything being included it's really much to close to call which is going to be better in any random situation.

1 is an action. The other a bonus action.
1 is a buff that depends on your accuracy. The other is a summon that has it's own accuracy. -> implying anything that buffs your accuracy, like magic weapons or elven accuracy advantage, can change the math enough for spirit shroud to pull ahead. -> also implying that there's more routes to lose the damage bonus provided by the summon than by the self buff, ie the summon can be killed by AOE attacks.
1 prevents healing and slows enemies. The other doesn't do anything like that.


But more importantly, one of your biggest complaints for 5e Hexblades was that they don't deal enough damage and I've listed a hexblade that does very good damage (comparable to SS+CBE Battlemasters). Yet you haven't actually stated how much damage the hexblade would need to do. So I must insist that in order to continue you answer this question. How much damage does a hexblade or gish need to do in your opinion to meet your damage requirements, and let's tackle this question at level 5, 10 and 12?

[Chaos Theory]

Paladin 2 / Swords Bard 18 looked like an interesting build so I ran it through my simulator.

Here is a quick overview of the simulator. It does a Monte Carlo simulation of true 3-round dpr (name cribbed from another post that described the same thing) using a build and associated tactics from levels 1-20. It assumes 3 rounds per encounter, 4 encounters per day, and 2 short rests per day. Weapon users will get a +1 weapon at level 6, +2 at level 8, and +3 at level 12. I generally run it for 10000 iterations which is enough to even out statistical errors. The enemy used is a single-monster deadly encounter from the DMG tables with HP, AC, and saves all scaling with level. In addition to true 3-round dpr, I have similar simulations for true 1-round nova and for median time to solo kill but it's easiest to do an apples-to-apples comparison on true 3-round dpr.

Since it's too much to post all 20 levels here, I'll just post results for levels 1, 5, 11, 17, and 20. I use Fiend Warlock as the low baseline and CBE+SS Fighter as the high baseline. Meeting the low baseline means that a build is good, meeting the high baseline means that a build is great. That being said, here are the numbers:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


Fiend Warlock
6
21
37
76
75


CBE + SS Fighter
9
35
73
95
113


2/18 Swords Bard
5
20
55
77
89



In order to build the swords bard, we first take 2 levels of paladin then put all remaining levels in bard. We will dual-wield rapiers, attempting to smite whenever possible and reserving higher-level smites for crits. In this simulation, we were able to use all of our spell slots on smites. We also attempt to flourish whenever possible. At level 12, we will steal Holy Weapon using Magical Secrets and pre-buff our mainhand rapier after each rest. At level 19, we will cast Foresight for permanent advantage. Attempting to use Crown of Stars instead of the offhand attack resulted in an overall damage loss so we won't attempt to use it. I should also mention that this build is MAD and with the standard array, must choose between maxing out CHA vs maxing out DEX.

Overall, I'm impressed, the damage is pretty good for a full caster and I find myself wondering if I could do better with a Polearm Master Valor Bard. Note that Holy Weapon accounts for a large chunk of damage and it applies to all polearm offhand attacks whereas it does not apply to offhand rapier attacks.

Now let's take a look at some of the other gish builds mentioned in this thread:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


2/18 Sorcadin
6
20
56
77
82


17/3 Hexglaive
8
33
65
132
146


17/3 Hexbow
8
24
54
127
158


Bladesinger
4
15
39
80
83



The sorcadin takes 2 levels in paladin before switching to sorcerer. Starting at level 7, we quicken haste on turn 1 and attack mainly using our greatsword and Green Flame Blade. If we have enough SP on successive rounds, we'll also attempt to quicken Green Flame Blade as the bonus action attack. We smite every attack possible while reserving enough spells to start battles with quicken haste. It almost exactly keeps up with Swords Bard, falling behind only on a few levels.

Both hexblades take 17 levels in warlock then switch to fighter for the remaining 3 levels. We use eldritch smite only on crits or on the last attack of a turn. We use Foresight starting at level 17 and concentrate on one of Hex, Darkness, or Elemental Weapon depending on what works best at that level. Darkness + Devil Sight is somewhat dubious with the melee Hexglaive but works well with the ranged Hexbow. Through T3, the Hexglaive exceeds the Swords Bard while the Hexbow matches it. At T4 both builds pull far ahead to exceed even the fighter.

The bladesinger is pure wizard and uses shadow blade for melee, adding in Crown of Stars later. This simulation was a bit generous since we assumed that the shadow blade's advantage condition will always be met. Upcasting shadow blade deals a ton of damage but it is a bit unrealistic. It barely keeps up with the fiendlock baseline.

[Frogreaver]

Paladin 2 / Swords Bard 18 looked like an interesting build so I ran it through my simulator.

Here is a quick overview of the simulator. It does a Monte Carlo simulation of true 3-round dpr (name cribbed from another post that described the same thing) using a build and associated tactics from levels 1-20. It assumes 3 rounds per encounter, 4 encounters per day, and 2 short rests per day. Weapon users will get a +1 weapon at level 6, +2 at level 8, and +3 at level 12. I generally run it for 10000 iterations which is enough to even out statistical errors. The enemy used is a single-monster deadly encounter from the DMG tables with HP, AC, and saves all scaling with level. In addition to true 3-round dpr, I have similar simulations for true 1-round nova and for median time to solo kill but it's easiest to do an apples-to-apples comparison on true 3-round dpr.

Since it's too much to post all 20 levels here, I'll just post results for levels 1, 5, 11, 17, and 20. I use Fiend Warlock as the low baseline and CBE+SS Fighter as the high baseline. Meeting the low baseline means that a build is good, meeting the high baseline means that a build is great. That being said, here are the numbers:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


Fiend Warlock
6
21
37
76
75


CBE + SS Fighter
9
35
73
95
113


2/18 Swords Bard
5
20
55
77
89



In order to build the swords bard, we first take 2 levels of paladin then put all remaining levels in bard. We will dual-wield rapiers, attempting to smite whenever possible and reserving higher-level smites for crits. In this simulation, we were able to use all of our spell slots on smites. We also attempt to flourish whenever possible. At level 12, we will steal Holy Weapon using Magical Secrets and pre-buff our mainhand rapier after each rest. At level 19, we will cast Foresight for permanent advantage. Attempting to use Crown of Stars instead of the offhand attack resulted in an overall damage loss so we won't attempt to use it. I should also mention that this build is MAD and with the standard array, must choose between maxing out CHA vs maxing out DEX.

Overall, I'm impressed, the damage is pretty good for a full caster and I find myself wondering if I could do better with a Polearm Master Valor Bard. Note that Holy Weapon accounts for a large chunk of damage and it applies to all polearm offhand attacks whereas it does not apply to offhand rapier attacks.

Now let's take a look at some of the other gish builds mentioned in this thread:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


2/18 Sorcadin
6
20
56
77
82


17/3 Hexglaive
8
33
65
132
146


17/3 Hexbow
8
24
54
127
158


Bladesinger
4
15
39
80
83



The sorcadin takes 2 levels in paladin before switching to sorcerer. Starting at level 7, we quicken haste on turn 1 and attack mainly using our greatsword and Green Flame Blade. If we have enough SP on successive rounds, we'll also attempt to quicken Green Flame Blade as the bonus action attack. We smite every attack possible while reserving enough spells to start battles with quicken haste. It almost exactly keeps up with Swords Bard, falling behind only on a few levels.

Both hexblades take 17 levels in warlock then switch to fighter for the remaining 3 levels. We use eldritch smite only on crits or on the last attack of a turn. We use Foresight starting at level 17 and concentrate on one of Hex, Darkness, or Elemental Weapon depending on what works best at that level. Darkness + Devil Sight is somewhat dubious with the melee Hexglaive but works well with the ranged Hexbow. Through T3, the Hexglaive exceeds the Swords Bard while the Hexbow matches it. At T4 both builds pull far ahead to exceed even the fighter.

The bladesinger is pure wizard and uses shadow blade for melee, adding in Crown of Stars later. This simulation was a bit generous since we assumed that the shadow blade's advantage condition will always be met. Upcasting shadow blade deals a ton of damage but it is a bit unrealistic. It barely keeps up with the fiendlock baseline.

Is the action/bonus action cost of any buff spells factored in? Or do you consider such spells to be prebuffed? Is the chance to lose concentration factored in, is so what is the parameter set at?

[shipiaozi]

You didn't answer the question though. What magic items or magic item access does your build assume? I am not going to continue this conversation without this, because i don't even know the reference point you are working from.

I said it twice, you should assume all melee character have very high(75%+) chance to have a str-item and don't waste feat on STR, otherwise most melee dps are pretty weak. That's one of the reasons EA is a bad feat for almost anyone.


Paladin 2 / Swords Bard 18 looked like an interesting build so I ran it through my simulator.

Here is a quick overview of the simulator. It does a Monte Carlo simulation of true 3-round dpr (name cribbed from another post that described the same thing) using a build and associated tactics from levels 1-20. It assumes 3 rounds per encounter, 4 encounters per day, and 2 short rests per day. Weapon users will get a +1 weapon at level 6, +2 at level 8, and +3 at level 12. I generally run it for 10000 iterations which is enough to even out statistical errors. The enemy used is a single-monster deadly encounter from the DMG tables with HP, AC, and saves all scaling with level. In addition to true 3-round dpr, I have similar simulations for true 1-round nova and for median time to solo kill but it's easiest to do an apples-to-apples comparison on true 3-round dpr.

Since it's too much to post all 20 levels here, I'll just post results for levels 1, 5, 11, 17, and 20. I use Fiend Warlock as the low baseline and CBE+SS Fighter as the high baseline. Meeting the low baseline means that a build is good, meeting the high baseline means that a build is great. That being said, here are the numbers:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


Fiend Warlock
6
21
37
76
75


CBE + SS Fighter
9
35
73
95
113


2/18 Swords Bard
5
20
55
77
89



In order to build the swords bard, we first take 2 levels of paladin then put all remaining levels in bard. We will dual-wield rapiers, attempting to smite whenever possible and reserving higher-level smites for crits. In this simulation, we were able to use all of our spell slots on smites. We also attempt to flourish whenever possible. At level 12, we will steal Holy Weapon using Magical Secrets and pre-buff our mainhand rapier after each rest. At level 19, we will cast Foresight for permanent advantage. Attempting to use Crown of Stars instead of the offhand attack resulted in an overall damage loss so we won't attempt to use it. I should also mention that this build is MAD and with the standard array, must choose between maxing out CHA vs maxing out DEX.

Overall, I'm impressed, the damage is pretty good for a full caster and I find myself wondering if I could do better with a Polearm Master Valor Bard. Note that Holy Weapon accounts for a large chunk of damage and it applies to all polearm offhand attacks whereas it does not apply to offhand rapier attacks.

Now let's take a look at some of the other gish builds mentioned in this thread:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


2/18 Sorcadin
6
20
56
77
82


17/3 Hexglaive
8
33
65
132
146


17/3 Hexbow
8
24
54
127
158


Bladesinger
4
15
39
80
83



The sorcadin takes 2 levels in paladin before switching to sorcerer. Starting at level 7, we quicken haste on turn 1 and attack mainly using our greatsword and Green Flame Blade. If we have enough SP on successive rounds, we'll also attempt to quicken Green Flame Blade as the bonus action attack. We smite every attack possible while reserving enough spells to start battles with quicken haste. It almost exactly keeps up with Swords Bard, falling behind only on a few levels.

Both hexblades take 17 levels in warlock then switch to fighter for the remaining 3 levels. We use eldritch smite only on crits or on the last attack of a turn. We use Foresight starting at level 17 and concentrate on one of Hex, Darkness, or Elemental Weapon depending on what works best at that level. Darkness + Devil Sight is somewhat dubious with the melee Hexglaive but works well with the ranged Hexbow. Through T3, the Hexglaive exceeds the Swords Bard while the Hexbow matches it. At T4 both builds pull far ahead to exceed even the fighter.

The bladesinger is pure wizard and uses shadow blade for melee, adding in Crown of Stars later. This simulation was a bit generous since we assumed that the shadow blade's advantage condition will always be met. Upcasting shadow blade deals a ton of damage but it is a bit unrealistic. It barely keeps up with the fiendlock baseline.

Before doing simulation, please understand builds first.
1. Not sure what you done to fiend warlock, Fiend Warlock should deal damage on par with hexblade
2. Sword bard, at least sword bard + Paladin should use two-hands reach weapon, not the garbage two-weapon fighting. In addition sword bard don't increase dex, they use str-item.

[Mitchellnotes]

I said it twice, you should assume all melee character have very high(75%+) chance to have a str-item and don't waste feat on STR, otherwise most melee dps are pretty weak. That's one of the reasons EA is a bad feat for almost anyone

Why is that an assumption you feel you can make? I would wager most people on this forum would assume that they would be unavailable unless they stumble upon one. Nor would i ever make a character assuming i'm getting an item through conversation with the dn. How are you guarenteeing that it is available? What happens for the 25% of characters its not? You should state that assumption when outlining what you are looking for.

What else are you assuming access to? Magic weapons/armor? How strong? What other items? Those assumptions make a huge impact. For instance, knowing you have access to certain items is going to make some builds much less compelling. For instance, part of the appeal of an artificier is that they as part of their class have access to certain items.

[LordShade]

I would love to have this conversation over Discord. Following the back and forth is frustrating considering the difference in time zones and limitations of writing.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Paladin 2 / Swords Bard 18 looked like an interesting build so I ran it through my simulator.

Here is a quick overview of the simulator. It does a Monte Carlo simulation of true 3-round dpr (name cribbed from another post that described the same thing) using a build and associated tactics from levels 1-20. It assumes 3 rounds per encounter, 4 encounters per day, and 2 short rests per day. Weapon users will get a +1 weapon at level 6, +2 at level 8, and +3 at level 12. I generally run it for 10000 iterations which is enough to even out statistical errors. The enemy used is a single-monster deadly encounter from the DMG tables with HP, AC, and saves all scaling with level. In addition to true 3-round dpr, I have similar simulations for true 1-round nova and for median time to solo kill but it's easiest to do an apples-to-apples comparison on true 3-round dpr.

Since it's too much to post all 20 levels here, I'll just post results for levels 1, 5, 11, 17, and 20. I use Fiend Warlock as the low baseline and CBE+SS Fighter as the high baseline. Meeting the low baseline means that a build is good, meeting the high baseline means that a build is great. That being said, here are the numbers:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


Fiend Warlock
6
21
37
76
75


CBE + SS Fighter
9
35
73
95
113


2/18 Swords Bard
5
20
55
77
89



In order to build the swords bard, we first take 2 levels of paladin then put all remaining levels in bard. We will dual-wield rapiers, attempting to smite whenever possible and reserving higher-level smites for crits. In this simulation, we were able to use all of our spell slots on smites. We also attempt to flourish whenever possible. At level 12, we will steal Holy Weapon using Magical Secrets and pre-buff our mainhand rapier after each rest. At level 19, we will cast Foresight for permanent advantage. Attempting to use Crown of Stars instead of the offhand attack resulted in an overall damage loss so we won't attempt to use it. I should also mention that this build is MAD and with the standard array, must choose between maxing out CHA vs maxing out DEX.

Overall, I'm impressed, the damage is pretty good for a full caster and I find myself wondering if I could do better with a Polearm Master Valor Bard. Note that Holy Weapon accounts for a large chunk of damage and it applies to all polearm offhand attacks whereas it does not apply to offhand rapier attacks.

Now let's take a look at some of the other gish builds mentioned in this thread:


Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


2/18 Sorcadin
6
20
56
77
82


17/3 Hexglaive
8
33
65
132
146


17/3 Hexbow
8
24
54
127
158


Bladesinger
4
15
39
80
83



The sorcadin takes 2 levels in paladin before switching to sorcerer. Starting at level 7, we quicken haste on turn 1 and attack mainly using our greatsword and Green Flame Blade. If we have enough SP on successive rounds, we'll also attempt to quicken Green Flame Blade as the bonus action attack. We smite every attack possible while reserving enough spells to start battles with quicken haste. It almost exactly keeps up with Swords Bard, falling behind only on a few levels.

Both hexblades take 17 levels in warlock then switch to fighter for the remaining 3 levels. We use eldritch smite only on crits or on the last attack of a turn. We use Foresight starting at level 17 and concentrate on one of Hex, Darkness, or Elemental Weapon depending on what works best at that level. Darkness + Devil Sight is somewhat dubious with the melee Hexglaive but works well with the ranged Hexbow. Through T3, the Hexglaive exceeds the Swords Bard while the Hexbow matches it. At T4 both builds pull far ahead to exceed even the fighter.

The bladesinger is pure wizard and uses shadow blade for melee, adding in Crown of Stars later. This simulation was a bit generous since we assumed that the shadow blade's advantage condition will always be met. Upcasting shadow blade deals a ton of damage but it is a bit unrealistic. It barely keeps up with the fiendlock baseline.

Thanks for doing this and posting. Definitely validates my choice to play a Bardadin; being nearly a full caster with solid damage output on top is pretty cool and the kind of gish I want to play. I find the level 11 comparison particularly helpful since this is close to the pointy end of the campaign and everyone's build is/ should be online at this point. The only thing I'd say is that PAM and a pole arm seems to me to be both a more useful fighting style and reduce the MADness of the build, but to each their own.

[Chaos Theory]

Is the action/bonus action cost of any buff spells factored in? Or do you consider such spells to be prebuffed? Is the chance to lose concentration factored in, is so what is the parameter set at?

The action/bonus action cost off buff spells are included. Here are my buff assumptions. 1-minute buffs must be cast in combat. 10-minute buffs may be cast before combat but only last for a single encounter. 1-hour buffs last until the next short rest. 8-hour buffs last all day. The chance to lose concentration is not factored in. I don't have good enough incoming damage figures to simulate concentration or any aspect of defense.



Before doing simulation, please understand builds first.
1. Not sure what you done to fiend warlock, Fiend Warlock should deal damage on par with hexblade


This fiendlock is pretty optimized. We attack with AB mainly and use Scorching Ray when we have pact magic slots to spare. We choose between Hex and Darkness + Devil Sight depending on which does more damage. Hurl through Hell is included and so is Crown of Stars. We use Foresight at level 17 for permanent advantage. Fiendlock deals very good damage but not on par with hexblade which as you see will surpass CBE+SS Fighter in T4.

Hexblades rely heavily on EA due to the importance of landing crit Eldritch Smites and to make up for using SS/GWM. It's one of a few builds that actually makes good use of it. Perhaps you should understand hexblades a bit better or try to optimize one before assuming that they're bad?



2. Sword bard, at least sword bard + Paladin should use two-hands reach weapon, not the garbage two-weapon fighting. In addition sword bard don't increase dex, they use str-item.


I've already identified using a polearm as one area where my Swords Bard can be improved so I'm already planning to take a pass at this. I can even include the assumption of a +STR item at a reasonable level.


Thanks for doing this and posting. Definitely validates my choice to play a Bardadin; being nearly a full caster with solid damage output on top is pretty cool and the kind of gish I want to play. I find the level 11 comparison particularly helpful since this is close to the pointy end of the campaign and everyone's build is/ should be online at this point. The only thing I'd say is that PAM and a pole arm seems to me to be both a more useful fighting style and reduce the MADness of the build, but to each their own.

Really appreciate the thanks. There are lots of builds that perform well at level 20 but fall flat in T2 and T3. I created these simulations mainly to optimize in that region. This was my first sword bard simulation so I mistakenly assumed it would dual-wield. I think the polearm version has a lot of potential and look forward to seeing what comes out of it.

[TotallyNotEvil]

You know, it seems obvious in hindsight, but somehow, the Sorcadin, with possible Hexnlade dip, always outshone everything else so hard that I never seriously considered a Pally/Bard.

And yet it makes so much sense. The one apparent shame is that Swords has always looked more interesting to me than Valor, and neither Dueling or TWF support two handers.

[Quietus]

You know, it seems obvious in hindsight, but somehow, the Sorcadin, with possible Hexnlade dip, always outshone everything else so hard that I never seriously considered a Pally/Bard.

And yet it makes so much sense. The one apparent shame is that Swords has always looked more interesting to me than Valor, and neither Dueling or TWF support two handers.

Bardadin is great. I played a dex-based half-elf, leaning into the "do a bit of everything" angle with some Errol Flynn on top. Leveling went Bard3 (College of Swords) -> Paladin2 -> BardX. Played up to level 10 with this character; there was some awkwardness in early tier 2 without extra attack (arrives at level 8) or third level spells (level 7), but I still felt effective. Faerie Fire, Hold Person, and Blindness/Deafness were significant enough up until those points to spend round 1 with them, and then do some melee combat afterward. Took Dueling fighting style from Bard, and Defense from Paladin.

[Chaos Theory]

Here we go, the updated Glaive Bardadin build next to the Rapier Bardadin build from last time.



Build
Level 1
Level 5
Level 11
Level 17
Level 20


Rapier Bardadin
5
20
55
77
89


Glaive Bardadin Melee (STR 20 / CHA 18)
9
20
57
87
112


Glaive Bardadin Caster (STR 19) / (CHA 20)
7
19
58
82
105



I included two versions of this build. The melee build followed the same general pattern as the Rapier Bardadin from before. It started with 16 STR then took PAM at level 1 and GWM at level 4 before maxing out STR and taking the final ASI in CHA. The caster build started with 14 STR and focused on maxing out CHA with ASIs. It took GWM at level 10 at the same time it received Gauntlets of Ogre Power boosting STR to 19. Buffs are the same as before with Holy Weapon now applying to the PAM bonus action attack as well. I stuck to the Swords Bard because there was no reason not to take advantage of flourish damage.

For the melee build, we see an improvement all around. As expected, PAM beats Dual Wield, especially after level 12 when Holy Weapon kicks in. The caster build is slightly weaker than the melee build at all levels except low T3 where they both have +4 STR modifier.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I wonder if picking up a melee cantrip of some sort wouldn't help with the pre-extra attack levels.

[RogueJK]

I wonder if picking up a melee cantrip of some sort wouldn't help with the pre-extra attack levels.

Yes, a SCAGtrip can help bridge the gap between Character Level 5 when a straight classed character gets Extra Attack and whenever Extra Attack comes online with your multiclass character. However, that's only if you're going for a traditional Attack/Extra Attack build.

If you're referring specifically to the Glaive/Rapier Bardadin builds in the preceding posts, they rely on PAM/TWF, which requires taking the Attack action to trigger the second BA attack. In those cases, a SCAGtrip wouldn't help, since BB/GFB means using the Cast A Spell Action not the Attack Action. You'd gain +1d8 on your lone attack from BB/GFB, but be giving up the opportunity for your second Bonus Action PAM/TWF attack, which is a net loss in damage output. (Especially when you factor in stuff like it being a 50% decrease in opportunities for Critical Smites.)

[Quietus]

I wonder if picking up a melee cantrip of some sort wouldn't help with the pre-extra attack levels.

Wouldn't hurt, but would require jumping through a few hoops. Those cantrips aren't on the Bard list or the Paladin list. You'd have to get them through race or feat. If you opted to go for variant human or high elf, this could help, and it'd be interesting to combine booming blade with the mobile flourish. Damage wise, it's just an extra D8, unless you can tag the extra damage.

Actually, now the idea of a swords bard as an alternate take on bladesinger, with booming blade and mobile flourish, sounds like a lot of fun....

[RogueJK]

Those cantrips aren't on the Bard list or the Paladin list. You'd have to get them through race or feat. If you opted to go for variant human or high elf, this could help

High Half Elf race would likely be the best option. +1/+1/+2 to stats, plus racial Booming Blade.

[Witty Username]

Meanwhile, waste a feat on caster ability+2 is unacceptable for wizard, sorcerer, druid or cleric. Bladesinger would have 15-16/18-19AC in very long time when a normal wizard's AC increased as he gets better armor and shield. In adventure league game a cleric/wizard have 18/19AC in lv5, while a bladesinger have roughly 17AC. Don't use bladesong AC as real AC, enemy could attack before your turn and sometimes you have no bladesong available.


I would point out a few things:
1. By 5th level a cleric dip will have lost you access to 3rd level spells costing a lot of short term power.
2. The enemy going first isn't a guarantee they will attack the wizard, and a consideration when the party decides marching order.
3. This doesn't take account rest ambushes which would be without armor, reducing the cleric dips AC to 10 while the bladesinger can eek out a 14 in an emergency.

[Quietus]

High Half Elf race would likely be the best option. +1/+1/+2 to stats, plus racial Booming Blade.

Entirely valid. It really comes down to, how much do you value the extra +1, versus the goodies that being a full blooded High Elf instead would get you? You're trading Perception, Trance, and weapon training (irrelevant once you take the Paladin level) for +1 stat.

[Valorant]

Saying that divine smite is bad for Paladin shows me only that you are not able to properly build Paladin at all. Same with saying that hexblade is bad gish is ridiculous. Or that spirit shroud is a bad spell. Or that for some reason martial PCs have some 75% chance to get certain magic items or that you will even get any particular magic item at all. This is not Diablo.

There are gishes that lean more towards melee power with magic used mostly to support them: hexblades, paladin-builds (hexadins, sorcadins, bardadins etc), eldricht knight, Even moon druids, arcane tricksters

And gishes that are more casters with melee to support them: blade singers, arcana clerics, sword/Valor bards, tome warlocks

It also worth to mention that everything can be gish at some point of having Tenser and simulacrum and everything losing any sense anyway once Wish is on. So it doesn't matter how strong gish you are on level 13/15+ but how good gish you were from level 1.

Best gishes for me from level 1 without some false assumptions of any magic items: hexblades, blade singers, EKs, Paladins and arcana clerics.

[Warlush]

I agree. There are a bunch of ways you can define "Gish".



.

Divine Smite is actually something I wouldn't consider "Gish" material. It doesn't act like a spell, it doesn't use a spell, and it doesn't feel like a spell. There isn't even a save or a chance to miss with it. You're essentially converting spell slots into pure damage. It's no different than a Fighter using Action Surge for more attacks, but using a magical currency. Personally, I'd consider Divine Smite to be the worst feature on the Paladin class page, especially considering how much it makes other Paladin features redundant (like their specialized Smite spells).

I could not agree more. A smite machine isn't really a gish. It's a smite machine. And it's really boring and played out.

[Tana]

V.Human Shadow Sorcerer.
PAM and Warcaster feats
Key features: Eye of Darkness and The Hound of Ill Omem.

Warcaster:

You have practiced casting spells in the midst of combat, learning techniques that grant you the following benefits:

You have advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage.
You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.


Polearm Master:

You gain the following benefits:

When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.
While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon.



- Immunity to oportunity attack (Darkness). Check
- Advantage all attacks. Check
- Immunity to "you must see" spells. Check
- Apply disadvantage on saving throw against your spells. Check
- Metamagic. Check
- Enemy's attack rolls with disadvantage. Check
- When the enemy enter your reach, you cast a spell against him. Check.
- Bonus action spells. Check.
- Boost damage of your spells. Check.
- Empowered Fireball. Check
- The Hound to apply disadvantage + Fear or Hypnotic Pattern. Check
- Advantage on concentration. Check
- Proficiency on concentration. Check
- Immunity to counterspell. Check.
- Movement with impunity, dash action, move (for better position) and still cast a quicken spell in your turn. (Check)

The Gish cast spells normally with advantage, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Firebolt, Chromatic Orb + The Hound shenanigans
When the enemy comes close enough 10ft (Because you are wielding a lance), It triggers PAM+Warcaster.
As a reaction bast the enemy with a single target spell (All spells with advantage). Empowered Scorching Ray (Average 34 damage), Chromatic Orb, Magic Missale, Firebolt.

Your turn:
As an action, casts Empowered Booming Blade (average 22 damage, dagger and extra booming blade damage).
As bonus action, Quicken Empowered Fireball or Scorching Ray for extra 34 average damage or just Sleep spell.
Move action to go out enemy range, triggering Booming blade damage and forcing him to trigger PAM+Warcaster again. You don't provoke oportunity attack (Darkness).


It's 90 average damage (a single round), all with advantage + the hound damage.

Average damage (Cantrip only).

Reaction Firebolt (2d20 with advantage)
Action Booming Blade (22 average damage)
Total of 30 average damage without burn recources.
Move out enemy range to trigger Booming Blade extra damage when the enemy moves.

[Theodoxus]

Polearm Master:

You gain the following benefits:

When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.
While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, quarterstaff, or spear, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon.


When the enemy comes close enough 10ft (Because you are wielding a lance), It triggers PAM+Warcaster.



Since when is a lance a polearm? I mean, you specifically list the weapons that are affected by PAM, and lance isn't on there...

Also, how did you get proficiency with a Lance?

Finally, for me at least, at a minimum, to be a gish requires more than just melee combat (which sadly, this build is 100% contradictory on and doesn't function the way you think it does) with spell backup. Anything that can pierce your darkness will knock your broken one trick pony out of the water (and if your DM isn't putting the occasional devils sighted Warlocks in your path or dispelling magic, or actual devils... well...)

[RogueJK]

V.Human Shadow Sorcerer.
PAM and Warcaster feats


How are you planning to address the super low AC issue?

Since you're making a melee Sorcerer, you'll need a high STR and CHA and a decent CON, which doesn't leave much of anything for DEX. And Sorcerers don't get armor proficiency. Your stats would look something like this with Point Buy:
STR 15+1
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15+1
And that leaves you with a 13 AC using Mage Armor. 13 AC is not viable for a melee-focused frontline character. (Or really any PC, frontline or not.)


So this is not doable as a single-classed VHuman Sorcerer. Instead, you'll need to multiclass. Your options are to A) start with a level of Fighter or Paladin in order to get Heavy Armor Proficiency and bump up to an 18 AC (or 20 AC if you use a Shield and a 1H Quarterstaff/Spear. Or B) dump STR in favor of a 14 DEX and dip a level of Hexblade then use Medium Armor, a Shield, and a 1H Quarterstaff/Spear, which would get you up to a 19 AC.

[Tana]

How are you planning to address the super low AC issue?

Since you're making a melee Sorcerer, you'll need a high STR and CHA and a decent CON, which doesn't leave much of anything for DEX. And Sorcerers don't get armor proficiency. Your stats would look something like this with Point Buy:
STR 15+1
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15+1
And that leaves you with a 13 AC using Mage Armor. 13 AC is not viable for a melee-focused frontline character. (Or really any PC, frontline or not.)


So this is not doable as a single-classed VHuman Sorcerer. Instead, you'll need to multiclass. Your options are to A) start with a level of Fighter or Paladin in order to get Heavy Armor Proficiency and bump up to an 18 AC (or 20 AC if you use a Shield and a 1H Quarterstaff/Spear. Or B) dump STR in favor of a 14 DEX and dip a level of Hexblade then use Medium Armor, a Shield, and a 1H Quarterstaff/Spear, which would get you up to a 19 AC.

It's 16 dex, 14 con and 16 cha.
You don't attack with Glaive/Quarterstaff, you just hold it for PAM + Warcaster Spell Oportunity attack.
It's standard 16 AC (21 with Shield spell, we know we have only a reaction per turn), the enemy has disadvantage against you. Your booming blade is using a dagger.

It isn't focused melee, you can fight melee really very well. It's a standard shadow sorcerer with his spells empowered fireball, firebolt, chromatic orb, fear, sleep and others + the hound shenanigans.
If the a threating enemy tries to come close enough, it's dead.
The enemy thinking about:
- Oh, It's a fragile mage with Giant glaive... lets go!
- What f... is that?

I prefer the hound early than multiclassing.