OOTS #1242 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Hamste]

Neat and now we get to see Elan's poison cure at work.

[Ruck]

I don't think I'd ever seen Calm Emotions before; Belkar of all people is a very funny choice for the target.

Looks like the tide may be turning!

[tcrudisi]

I'm imagining this chain of events where one person helps another who is then able to help another and so on until everyone has been brought back into the fight.

It is very amusing to me.

[Zhorn]

Bloodfeast in to save the day!

It just takes one domino to start the chain :smallbiggrin:

[vonBoomslang]

I will laugh forever if Belkar retrieving Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator is what saves them all.

[Mad Humanist]

Does this mean Sunny is Evil or something? I mean how did Belkar's clasp work. Sunny does not seem to be your typical Evil character to me.

[Psepha]

That was just fantastic.

At first I thought the whole Bloodfeast thing was just there to tease everyone (so close to more glorious metal band covers, but none for you!) but he ended up being key! Awesome stuff.

I can't think of anyone funnier to cast Calm Emotions on than Belkar, and I'm loving the chain reaction of them each helping another party member in turn. :smallsmile:

[Ekul]

I never expected Bloodfeast to be the MVP of this encounter.
It really goes to show how having just one agent non-incapacitated of a well-made party can snowball into multiple available party members, even if it's a cohort, familiar or animal companion.

[internisus]

Oh, Area of Affect! That's clever; I enjoy it.

[littlebum2002]

Oh, Area of Affect! That's clever; I enjoy it.

I don't get it.


Also, who's better? Calm Emotions Belkar or Owl's Wisdom Belkar?

[Hamste]

Does this mean Sunny is Evil or something? I mean how did Belkar's clasp work. Sunny does not seem to be your typical Evil character to me.

Protection from evil actually protects from all mind controlling effects not just from evil. The evil protection part comes in as an ac and saving throw bonus as well as forbidding summoned creatures other than good ones from touching you.

Also side note for those curious is because protection from evil only suppresses effects affecting you. So the ring is making Elan all glowy as long as it is doing so.

[Metastachydium]

And the dinosaurlizard saves the day! (I see a pattern emerging here; is anyone else getting battle of the dining hall vibes?)

[internisus]

I don't get it.

Area of effect is a common gaming mechanic for determining the range of a spell or other event, and affect as a noun is like an emotional state.

[Peelee]

What is it that turns a halfling neutral? Lust for power? Gold? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?

[Crusher]

Hah! Belkar support is kind of addition by subtraction.

[RatElemental]

Turns out it really was Bloodfeast's time to shine, just not in the way we were expecting.

[Schroeswald]

What is it that turns a halfling neutral? Lust for power? Gold? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Neutrality is made by a life filled with boringness.

[Coventry]

I had not thought to role-play the calm emotions spell that way, but seeing it in action like this?

Yep, I am definitely following the pattern of this strip from now on!

[Toper]

I love it! Everything about this comic is great, starting with Bloodfeast's heroics.

[Hiro Quester]

I’m sorry to see that Durkon failed to resist being turned to stone a second time.

[vonBoomslang]

I’m sorry to see that Durkon failed to resist being turned to stone a second time.

And conveniently the bard with Song of Freedom is right there.

[Quebbster]

A bit surprised to see the flames around Elan too, I sort of assumed they only appeared for Evil users. They don't seem to hurt him though so maybe it was just the pain that struck Evildoers.

Also love how Bloodfeast continues to contribute throughout the page.

[Tundar]

Oh this is clever. Bloodfeast saves the day!
And a calm Beklar is somewhat disturbing to me.

[Shining Wrath]

Totally calm Belkar is amazing. And Minrah is showing what a few low-level cleric spells can do.

I may use Elan's line at my next performance review. "I'll do my best to live up to your tepid indifference".

[Kareeah_Indaga]

“Cleric at them vigorously” was my favorite line. :smallbiggrin:

[hroþila]

What is it that turns a halfling neutral? Lust for power? Gold? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?
All I know is my gut says "maybe".

[Aahz]

I have no idea what the mechanics of calm emotions are as a spell. But I love thinking that Minrah rolling a natural 20 caused this level of passiveness in Belkar.

Also love bloodfeast continuing to help by stopping the charmed cat from attacking anyone...

[The MunchKING]

Neat and now we get to see Elan's poison cure at work.

It just makes it where it won't get worse, it doesn't actually cure what the poison has already done to them.

(Well unless he's gotten some new spells since he last explained to us.)

[The MunchKING]

I have no idea what the mechanics of calm emotions are as a spell. But I love thinking that Minrah rolling a natural 20 caused this level of passiveness in Belkar.

It just shuts off people's emotions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm). No need for a roll or anything. Aside from that, it explicitly overrides all the emotion based spells, and all the emotional class powers. SO it's actually a surprisingly good spell in a very limited set of circumstances.

[elros]

Wow, Bloodthief took initiative in a positive way, showing that it is one of the most capable members of the party. In fact, it seems that there is an inverse relationship between someone's duration with the Order and their effectiveness.

I also like how these strips are good examples of how action economy (https://www.dungeonsolvers.com/2018/06/01/understanding-the-action-economy-in-dd-5e/) plays out in encounters.
If Serini had really prepared for this fight, she would have had several creatures around to tie up the Order. Or at least throw a tanglefoot bag (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html). Who would have thought a paladin would have been prepared for an ambush than an epic rouge?

[littlebum2002]

A bit surprised to see the flames around Elan too, I sort of assumed they only appeared for Evil users. They don't seem to hurt him though so maybe it was just the pain that struck Evildoers.

Also love how Bloodfeast continues to contribute throughout the page.

The "flames" are the magical aura of the item activating. The same effect appears when Haley uses a wand. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html). It harms Belkar because he is evil (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html). I think that is a homebrewed effect.

[hamishspence]

Good to see Minrah back in action.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bloodfeast in to save the day!

It just takes one domino to start the chain :smallbiggrin:
Yay Bloodfeast.
Yay Minrah.

"I'll do my best to live up to your tepid indifference". I've got a file somewhere of bizarre statements written on performance evaluations, that one fits the theme.

[Ivrytwr]

Made me laugh out loud.
Bloodfeast for the win.
"Just bursting with the absence of negativity!" My new motivational poster quote.

Thanks Giant!

[mucat]

What is it that turns a halfling neutral? Lust for power? Gold? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?
:belkar: If I don't make it, tell Mr. Scruffy...hello.

[Windscion]

Wow, Blood[feast] took initiative in a positive way, showing that it is one of the most capable members of the party. Who would have guessed?

Actually, Minrah (Durkon cohort) called Bloodfeast (Belkar ... associate?) to assist her, so this is Minrah stepping up. And showing a surprising depth of understanding of the party's strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: Oh carp, I missed that Bloodfeast actually assisted Minrah in waking up. Good show little guy.

[CheesePirate]

Actually, Minrah (Durkon cohort) called Bloodfeast (Belkar ... associate?) to assist her, so this is Minrah stepping up.

It started with Bloodfeast chomping Minrah's hand to wake her up, though?

[eaglewingz]

Also, who's better? Calm Emotions Belkar or Owl's Wisdom Belkar?

Delightfully Deadpan Calm Emotions Belkar, of course!

[drazen]

It just makes it where it won't get worse, it doesn't actually cure what the poison has already done to them.

(Well unless he's gotten some new spells since he last explained to us.)

It is just sleeping poison. He may need to be roused.

As for Durkon being a statue, Song of Freedom or (in OOTS) Break Enchantment have been shown to work.

[elecampane]

So, they did all failed their saving throws in the previous page, despite some of them being targeted on the strong saves: I mean, even if Elan has 8 in wisdom, that would still put his will save at at least +8, and Durkon failed his fort save, V failed their will save, which they're supposed to respectively be good at. Either Sunny has a significantly buffed DC compared to a regular beholder, or the party is extremely unlucky. Or it's another one of those instances where gods just wanted them to loose (strip 201)
Upd: and that's on top of Sunny needing to hit each and every one of them with a ranged touch attack. I mean, the probability of rolling 7 attacks and not getting a single nat 1 is only about 70%. And obviously Sunny would likely need to roll much higher than 1 to hit, say, Haley (or her bow), or a cat.

Also just to point out: calm emotions affects creatures in a 20 ft spread, she could've targeted Mr. Scruffy too: calm emotions specifically removes the confused condition, which is what the cat most likely suffers from, based on traditional beholder rays.

[Fyraltari]

Now, now Elan, let's not put too high expectations on you.

[chiefwaha]

"You're just bursting with an absence of negativity, aren't you?" has become a new favorite quote.

[Psyren]

I guess Durkon did fail his save after all. Disappointing.


It just shuts off people's emotions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm). No need for a roll or anything. Aside from that, it explicitly overrides all the emotion based spells, and all the emotional class powers. SO it's actually a surprisingly good spell in a very limited set of circumstances.

It DOES mean he can't rage though.

[Quebbster]

The "flames" are the magical aura of the item activating. The same effect appears when Haley uses a wand. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html). It harms Belkar because he is evil (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html). I think that is a homebrewed effect.

Haley only had the aura for a single panel though, then it was gone. And the effect there looks a lot less flamelike. And I don't think we've seen any other Protection from Stuff spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html) with an ongoing aura, so Belkar's clasp seems to be special in many ways. I assumed the aura was linked to the painful sensation, but now it is apparent I was wrong.

[locksmith of lo]

oh yes, the three weeks of waiting was definitely worth it! "you're just bursting with an absence of negativity, aren't you?" :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

Also just to point out: calm emotions affects creatures in a 20 ft spread, she could've targeted Mr. Scruffy too: calm emotions specifically removes the confused condition, which is what the cat most likely suffers from, based on traditional beholder rays.

I thought Scruffy was "Charm Monster".

[pendell]

This is a great strip, and hilarious. Belkar continues to deliver the laughs. Good to see the order getting back up on its feat, and Chekhov's dinosaur is literally out of the bag. I'm hoping for good things in the next few strips -- although , realistically, it's going to be very hard to beat Serini and Sunny. With Roy and V out of commission, team Serini holds all the cards.

UPDATE: At first I was wondering what happened to Durkon but there he is ; he's a statue. He must have failed his save after all. I assume all the buffs he put on were stripped by the anti-magic field.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[elecampane]

I thought Scruffy was "Charm Monster".

Yes, you a right, my bad. Calm emotions still says "creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive". So the spell would still help the situation, I would argue

[locksmith of lo]

and it is really credit to the artist to make a "stick figure" character appear actually emotionless. i had to go back and look at other strips with belkar to see how much range of emotion that he usually expresses on his face to get how much different it is when he has none. :smallsmile:

[warmachine]

Calm Emotions doesn't stop people taking their own initiative for non-violent actions but Belkar doesn't do non-violence.

[Svata]

I'm imagining this chain of events where one person helps another who is then able to help another and so on until everyone has been brought back into the fight.

It is very amusing to me.

as odd as it may seem, Protection From Evil works on all mind-whammy

[TuringTest]

Chain-reaction teamwork! Yay! :smallbiggrin:

It's great to see Bloodfeast actively participating, I don't remember the lovely bug doing anything but sleep since it was polymorphed.



UPDATE: At first I was wondering what happened to Durkon but there he is ; he's a statue. He must have failed his save after all. I assume all the buffs he put on were stripped by the anti-magic field.


Thanks to your prompt to review that panel, I've also noticed later Haley saying "V and the boys are all out of it". So Haley doesn't think of V as one of the boys. Interesting.

[Wintermoot]

Love it.

I'm sure the hate-brigade from the last couple of discussion threads will bemoan this as "yet another instance of outside interference being needed to save the Order" despite Bloodfeast being LITERALLY a class feature of Belkar, just like they complained about Mr. Scruffy saving the day in the Vampire fight.

But, let's be honest, they'll always find something to be upset about.

[KorvinStarmast]

I guess Durkon did fail his save after all. Disappointing. Something something narrative something something copper piece harlot something something :smallmad:

[Metastachydium]

Chain-reaction teamwork! Yay! :smallbiggrin:

It's great to see Bloodfeast actively participating, I don't remember the lovely bug doing anything but sleep since it was polymorphed.


He bites the Exarch, saving the tiger from certain death in no. 1014 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html). But otherwise yeah.

[Breccia]

I'm wondering what a calm emotion'd V would sound like.

Probably the same.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I choose to think of this as Bloodfeast warming up for the encounter where he unleashes the fury. Also, I love how he’s just sitting there holding Mr. Scruffy back. Hopefully the rest of the Order gets back on their feet soon; I think they’ll need a little more than this to beat Serini.

[Metastachydium]

I think they’ll need a little more than this to beat Serini.

Unless, of course, Sunny does something really stupid again.

[Fyraltari]

He must have failed his save after all. I assume all the buffs he put on were stripped by the anti-magic field.

Since Durkon was out of the field when he got petrificated all his spells would have been back online.

[TuringTest]

He bites the Exarch, saving the tiger from certain death in no. 1014 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html). But otherwise yeah.

Oh yes, good catch. Important, though not plot-altering, I suppose.


I choose to think of this as Bloodfeast warming up for the encounter where he unleashes the fury. Also, I love how he’s just sitting there holding Mr. Scruffy back. Hopefully the rest of the Order gets back on their feet soon; I think they’ll need a little more than this to beat Serini.

Yes, probably. To be fair there haven't been many situations where a small lizard (one without magical powers of its own) could prove useful, of course. Until today.

[danielxcutter]

I am entirely happy with this turn of events. Also Bloodfeast in the second panel is somehow adorable.

[Wraithfighter]

I always love a good "Can you (Noun) at them" bit, but "Cleric Vigorously" is just chef's kiss good. Helps keep suspense about what she will do, and is easily justified by Halley not really knowing what Minrah can do.

[LtPowers]

I had not thought to role-play the calm emotions spell that way, but seeing it in action like this?

Yep, I am definitely following the pattern of this strip from now on!

Don't go overboard. Belkar reacted like this because he is driven by his emotions. If he's not angry about something (or lusting after someone), he has no idea what to do.

Someone like Roy would not react this way; he's driven by his internal moral compass. That's not an emotion and would not be affected by the spell.


Powers &8^]

[Metastachydium]

Also Bloodfeast in the second panel is somehow adorable.

Is he ever not adorable, though?

[littlebum2002]

Haley only had the aura for a single panel though, then it was gone. And the effect there looks a lot less flamelike. And I don't think we've seen any other Protection from Stuff spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html) with an ongoing aura, so Belkar's clasp seems to be special in many ways. I assumed the aura was linked to the painful sensation, but now it is apparent I was wrong.

I found a better example: Haley's Boots of Speed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html)

[RMS Oceanic]

Maybe the PfE aura is still flaring because it's interacting with the charm spell.

This was a nice turnabout. Time for a quick shot of country and western!

[danielxcutter]

Is he ever not adorable, though?

Well, more than usual here at least.

[pendell]

Since Durkon was out of the field when he got petrificated all his spells would have been back online.

Didn't they have mind-affecting buffs up before this combat? I assumed they were stripped off by AMF and not renewed.

If not -- well, we saw that at least half the party succumbed to vampiric domination in the last book. If they were prepping for Xykon and Redcloak AGAIN without all their normal buffs against someone who's go-to spell is energy drain, well, I'm not sure what to do for them. I get that the Order isn't a minmaxing party who goes for the optimal builds and combat feats, but there's a difference between "average party" and "willfully idiot ball" party.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm wondering what a calm emotion'd V would sound like.

Probably the same.It'd have to be subtle as V like's to pretend to be in control of their emotions.

[SlashDash]

But correct me if I'm wrong, aren't they still in the same situation? Sunny can use his eyes again if he wants next round.

So whatever the order are going to do, they better do it fast.

[Yuki Akuma]

Love it.

I'm sure the hate-brigade from the last couple of discussion threads will bemoan this as "yet another instance of outside interference being needed to save the Order" despite Bloodfeast being LITERALLY a class feature of Belkar, just like they complained about Mr. Scruffy saving the day in the Vampire fight.

But, let's be honest, they'll always find something to be upset about.

Bloodfeast is a class feature?

Mr. Scruffy is definitely Belkar's Animal Companion, but don't Rangers only get one of those?

I guess "Handle Animal as a class skill" is a class feature...

[bunsen_h]

Also love how Bloodfeast continues to contribute throughout the page.

Having been watching videos from Snake Discovery (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnIrLy19cFV50Eai8Xj-ArA) recently, I have to wonder how many of Bloodfeast's actions are determined by wanting to help, and how many by "that looks like food, so I will try to eat it".

[Fyraltari]

Don't go overboard. Belkar reacted like this because he is driven by his emotions. If he's not angry about something (or lusting after someone), he has no idea what to do.

Someone like Roy would not react this way; he's driven by his internal moral compass. That's not an emotion and would not be affected by the spell.


Powers &8^]
That's... debatable? All drive to do something are fueled by emotions who may in turn be triggered by one's moral compass. Given that Belkar is now indifferent to his own survival I'm not as sure as you are that Roy would still be willing to fight unless prompted as Belkar is now.

Didn't they have mind-affecting buffs up before this combat? I assumed they were stripped off by AMF and not renewed.

All I can find is this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html). I leave the conclusions to people with a greater understanding of the game tha' mine.

[Joe the Rat]

“Cleric at them vigorously” was my favorite line. :smallbiggrin:
Indeed

At the next opportunity, I will, in game, tell someone to "Cleric at them".

[danielxcutter]

Hmm.

I don’t think Xykon and Redcloak use mind-affecting abilities a whole lot. And stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil would help in a pinch.

[DavidSh]

Didn't they have mind-affecting buffs up before this combat? I assumed they were stripped off by AMF and not renewed.
My understanding is that the Anti-Magic Field suppresses effects, it doesn't dispel. Renewal is not necessary.

[Reboot]

Maybe the PfE aura is still flaring because it's interacting with the charm spell.
I think you're right. PfX only suppresses charms/etc, it doesn't dispel them.


This was a nice turnabout. Time for a quick shot of country and western!
Song of Freedom's essentially useless in combat, since it takes 10 rounds ("Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music,"
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm ). Meanwhile, Roy would tske et least three spells to get up & running (Neutralise Poison, Cure/Heal, Restoration), the last of which Elan doesn't efen have. He's going for V for a reason - they just need a Cure to get going, although they also need the Slow dispelled for full effectiveness, probably.

Elan's other option is to try a Greater Dispel (which he has (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), to break some of the status conditions. But getting V back up first may be better.

[pendell]

That's... debatable? All drive to do something are fueled by emotions who may in turn be triggered by one's moral compass. Given that Belkar is now indifferent to his own survival I'm not as sure as you are that Roy would still be willing to fight unless prompted as Belkar is now.


All I can find is this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html). I leave the conclusions to people with a greater understanding of the game tha' mine.

I think this correlates with your theory. The team is told to prep buffs of medium duration. Mass Death Ward is a homebrew but Stoneskin is SRD and lasts 10 minutes/level. Protection from Evil lasts 1 min/level so I guess that is a short-term buff. Which they would have used if they hadn't been ambushed and AMFd. So this isn't a failure on the party's part; it's clever tactics on Serini's.

The jury is still out as to whether Mass Death Ward is still effective or not, because I don't think any of the effects Sunny used were death effects, so the hypothesis remains untested.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Svata]

Chain-reaction teamwork! Yay! :smallbiggrin:

It's great to see Bloodfeast actively participating, I don't remember the lovely bug doing anything but sleep since it was polymorphed.



Thanks to your prompt to review that panel, I've also noticed later Haley saying "V and the boys are all out of it". So Haley doesn't think of V as one of the boys. Interesting.

Because they aren't? V's gender is... ambiguous, but y'know, given everything we've seen of elves, including elven kids calling their parents "parent" and "other parent" instead of gendered terms, it's pretty clear that they're not within the human concept of gender as such and so V literally isn't "one of the boys" or "one of the girls" either.

[kenlund]

Elan has potentially a lot of support actions he can potentially do. Take care of V's poison and heal. Take care of Roy's poison and heal. Song of Freedom to fix Durkon being stone (but I don't think he can do that during a fight, not sure). There probably aren't enough rounds in the fight for him to do everything....before the Sunny takes him down anyways.

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think V’s been knocked out with SLEEP poison, they looked conscious when they fell to the ground.

[gatemansgc]

the giant is a master of suspense!
been giddy waiting for this, though finally starting to read one piece online has helped. caught up to where the 4kids dub ended so everything i'm reading now is new.

seems the theories of durkon beating the flesh to stone weren't correct! and it also seems he didn't neutralize roy's poison in time. but minrah is really proving herself as an important part of the order!

also this is probably the most participation we'll get out of bloodfeast since the breaking of its enchantment likely won't happen until the final battle.

[Fyraltari]

I think this correlates with your theory. The team is told to prep buffs of medium duration. Mass Death Ward is a homebrew but Stoneskin is SRD and lasts 10 minutes/level. Protection from Evil lasts 1 min/level so I guess that is a short-term buff. Which they would have used if they hadn't been ambushed and AMFd. So this isn't a failure on the party's part; it's clever tactics on Serini's.

The jury is still out as to whether Mass Death Ward is still effective or not, because I don't think any of the effects Sunny used were death effects, so the hypothesis remains untested.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

How long does regular Death Ward last?

[PontificatusRex]

Does anyone else think that Belkar looks really, really weird without his cloak? I know we've seen it before when he was a gladiator, but then the whole ensemble was different. Funny how one can get so used to a particular look and that's it's really disconcerting when an element of it is changed.

Also, it's hilarious that Belkar fantasizes about giant death machine animal companions but it's a house cat and a lizard that keep saving the day. I kinda hope Bloodfeast never changes back.

[Flechette63]

I don’t think V’s been knocked out with SLEEP poison, they looked conscious when they fell to the ground.

One quibble I haven't seen brought up. Elves are typically immune to sleep effects so unless that's been waived I suspect the poison causes "unconscious" or something similar but distinct from "sleep". That might change what it takes to undo the condition.

Alternatively you're completely correct and something else caused the sudden drop. (Edit: Which would be cool, not intending to be dismissive or flippant. I was actually hoping that'd be an interesting wrinkle for Serini to deal with a few strips ago.)

[Metastachydium]

How long does regular Death Ward last?

One minute per level.

[Fyraltari]

If Serini had really prepared for this fight, she would have had several creatures around to tie up the Order. Or at least throw a tanglefoot bag (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html). Who would have thought a paladin would have been prepared for an ambush than an epic rouge?
It's likely that Team Evil made a serious dent in the number of monsters assigned to the fake tunnels by this point and Serini may be unwilling to compromise her actual defenses to take on thr Order too much on the off-chance that this is the day somebody on TE rolls a natural 20 on Spot and realizes the fake tunnel trick.

One minute per level.
So around fifteen minutes then? Assuming that the Mass version lasts at most as long as the regular one, it's probably run out by now.

[Arkku]

Serini probably should have used a few of those attacks to ensure the incapacitated party members stay that way.

[Arkain]

Remove Fear might have done the trick, but we would have missed out on apathetic Belkar. And apathetic Belkar is hilarious :smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

One quibble I haven't seen brought up. Elves are typically immune to sleep effects so unless that's been waived I suspect the poison causes "unconscious" or something similar but distinct from "sleep". That might change what it takes to undo the condition.

The only poison effect in the Rules As Written that knocks people out (and isn't just tons of mental ability score damage) is explicitly "Unconsciousness" rather than "Sleep" so that elves aren't immune to it - considering the primary poison that does that is Drow poison, and they like to use it on above-ground elves.


That's... debatable? All drive to do something are fueled by emotions who may in turn be triggered by one's moral compass. Given that Belkar is now indifferent to his own survival I'm not as sure as you are that Roy would still be willing to fight unless prompted as Belkar is now.

Calm Emotions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) explicitly allows affected creatures to defend themselves, so it definitely doesn't suppress survival instinct.

[bunsen_h]

Remove Fear might have done the trick, but we would have missed out on apathetic Belkar. And apathetic Belkar is hilarious :smallbiggrin:

As always when second-guessing casters, it comes down to what spells they have prepared. Calm Emotions does strike me as a somewhat odd thing to have prepared for the situations the Order might expect from their plans for the day, though.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, Xykon's technically got a fear aura but I don't think even Minrah's low-leveled enough to worry about it.

[factotum]

As always when second-guessing casters, it comes down to what spells they have prepared. Calm Emotions does strike me as a somewhat odd thing to have prepared for the situations the Order might expect from their plans for the day, though.

They were expecting to come up against Redcloak, and having the spell available in case he started getting annoyed probably didn't seem like a terrible idea--she just never got a chance to use it. Don't forget that Durkon and Minrah had very different plans at the start of this day than the rest of the Order did.

[Peelee]

Song of Freedom's essentially useless in combat, since it takes 10 rounds ("Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music,"
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm ).

Counterpoint (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html).

[Yuki Akuma]

Counterpoint (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html).

That didn't happen in combat.

[Peelee]

That didn't happen in combat.

Fair. The implication I got was that it was a standard action, just the wire "freedom" (as Holy Word, for example), but I'll cop to there being nothing to really indicate that otherwise.

[JonahFalcon]

"No, get away! You're in league with the cat!"

---

All anyone needs to do to get Belkar back to his old self is to smack him over the head and say, "Okay, you're fine now."

[Living Oxymoron]

Judging by how the Exarch Hammerfell (a vampire at the time) was affected by the little Bloodfeast's bite (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html), I take that now Minrah is closer to die.

[JonahFalcon]

Judging by how the Exarch Hammerfell (a vampire at the time) was affected by the little Bloodfeast's bite (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html), I take that now Minrah is closer to die.

Who says Bloodfeast bit her with full force?

[Zonkerbl]

Charming as this Rube Goldberg of teamwork riff is, doesn't each action take up time? How much time do they have?

[Peelee]

Charming as this Rube Goldberg of teamwork riff is, doesn't each action take up time? How much time do they have?

Round 1:
Bloodfeast attacks Minrah.
Minrah casts on Belkar.
Belkar Aid Anothers Elan.
Round 2

... ish.

[JonahFalcon]

Round 1:
Bloodfeast attacks Minrah.
Minrah casts on Belkar.
Belkar Aid Anothers Elan.
Round 2

... ish.


It goes at the speed of Plot.

[Kilo24]

Fair. The implication I got was that it was a standard action, just the wire "freedom" (as Holy Word, for example), but I'll cop to there being nothing to really indicate that otherwise.

If you didn't know that country music can stretch out saying the word "FREEDOM!" to a full minute, you obviously haven't listened to much country music.

[Doug Lampert]

If you didn't know that country music can stretch out saying the word "FREEDOM!" to a full minute, you obviously haven't listened to much country music.

I was too busy worrying about my mother getting hit by the train while coming home from the liquor store after she got out of prison and the fact that my self-driving pickup truck just drove off with my dog and left me.

[Peelee]

If you didn't know that country music can stretch out saying the word "FREEDOM!" to a full minute, you obviously haven't listened to much country music.

[looks at my own location tag]

....sure you wanna go with that claim? :smallamused:

I've listened to both kinds of music, country and western!

[KorvinStarmast]

I was too busy worrying about my mother getting hit by the train while coming home from the liquor store after she got out of prison and the fact that my self-driving pickup truck just drove off with my dog and left me. Steve Goodman would like a quiet word ... can you cast the speak with dead spell? :smallwink:

[Kilo24]

[looks at my own location tag]

....sure you wanna go with that claim? :smallamused:

I've listened to both kinds of music, country and western!

Well, clearly not enough country music. After all, country music has a lot to say about America.

...not much actual variety of things to say, mind you, but that never stopped it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE&ab_channel=BBCStudios).

[KorvinStarmast]

After all, country music has a lot to say about America. I prefer Western; Bob Wills is still the king. :smallwink:

[Psychronia]

Belkar has never been more emotionally stable or un-discouraging.

Bloodfeast is victorious! And he's restraining Mr. Scruffy to boot.

[WindStruck]

It's nice that they're all slowly able to join the fight again, but I'm just afraid Sunny can shoot them all over again.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Honestly that was sooo funny. Also Belkar's thingywhatsit didn't seem to hurt him when he gave it to Elan, not sure if that means anything, coz perhaps he wasn't using it or whatever, or maybe he was just apathetic to it, or what have you, but who knows?

[Thales]

It's nice that they're all slowly able to join the fight again, but I'm just afraid Sunny can shoot them all over again.

One way I could see this playing out is that they neutralize all of Sunny's first volley, Serini orders Sunny to fire again with all the rays, including the presumably-lethal #8, and Sunny, being more good than Serini objects and bows out of the fight.

[JonahFalcon]

Power Word: Blind.

[MartianInvader]

Round 1:
Bloodfeast attacks Minrah.
Minrah casts on Belkar.
Belkar Aid Anothers Elan.
Round 2

... ish.

I don't think it's even been a round yet. I think it's:

Round 1:
Sunny blasts everyone
Bloodfeast wakes up Minrah
Serini misses Haley
Minrah calms Belkar
Belkar puts the clasp on Elan
Elan Neutralize Poisons V
V Breaks Enchantment Durkon
Durkon Restorations Roy
Roy either tries diplomacy or throws his sword

...THEN round 2

Action economy!

[Elenna]

Was not expecting Bloodfeast to be the VIP of this battle but I love it. :smallbiggrin:

[Reboot]

I don't think it's even been a round yet. I think it's:

Round 1:
Sunny blasts everyone
Bloodfeast wakes up Minrah
Serini misses Haley
Minrah calms Belkar
Belkar puts the clasp on Elan
Elan Neutralize Poisons V
V Breaks Enchantment Durkon
Durkon Restorations Roy
Roy either tries diplomacy or throws his sword

...THEN round 2

Action economy!

Restoration won't be enough on Roy. Sure, it might wake him up... but even if the poison did no HP damage (and so he didn't need a Cure), he'd fall straight back down again. Need a Neutralize Poison first to avoid that.

[Tecatin]

As always when second-guessing casters, it comes down to what spells they have prepared. Calm Emotions does strike me as a somewhat odd thing to have prepared for the situations the Order might expect from their plans for the day, though.

Bit late to this but considering Minrah was with the entire party when the vampires managed to use charm spells to control most of the party it strikes me as personally reasonable; if xykon or any casters they don't know about show up its a good way to help deal with that kind of issue.

[Dion]

Bloodfeast the bloodinator for the win!

[elecampane]

I don't think it's even been a round yet. I think it's:

Round 1:
Sunny blasts everyone
Bloodfeast wakes up Minrah
Serini misses Haley
Minrah calms Belkar
Belkar puts the clasp on Elan
Elan Neutralize Poisons V
V Breaks Enchantment Durkon
Durkon Restorations Roy
Roy either tries diplomacy or throws his sword

...THEN round 2

Action economy!

I feel compelled to point out that Break Enchantment takes a minute to cast. V could have Stone to flesh prepared (in theory) or as a scroll, but that's a bit more risky and less likely. It seems, Durkon's out for the fignt; even if Sunny looks at him with a central antimagic eye, it still won't help: flesh to stone has instantaneous duration, not permanent.


Restoration won't be enough on Roy. Sure, it might wake him up... but even if the poison did no HP damage (and so he didn't need a Cure), he'd fall straight back down again. Need a Neutralize Poison first to avoid that.
He'll only fall down if he fails the second saving throw, and even then after a minute. And obviously, Durkon could just Heal him, the spell restores hit points and removes both ability damage and many harmful conditions

[WindStruck]

One way I could see this playing out is that they neutralize all of Sunny's first volley, Serini orders Sunny to fire again with all the rays, including the presumably-lethal #8, and Sunny, being more good than Serini objects and bows out of the fight.

Perhaps! Or maybe the odds will be more in the order's favor next time, and some of the beams might miss, and/or they pass their saves.

[Yuki Akuma]

Restoration won't be enough on Roy. Sure, it might wake him up... but even if the poison did no HP damage (and so he didn't need a Cure), he'd fall straight back down again. Need a Neutralize Poison first to avoid that.

Poison does its damage once when it hits, and then one minute later. So he'll be fine for five or six rounds without needing a Neutralize Poison.

[Alexandrite]

There's a lot more telling rather than showing on this page than the comic usually has. I can see some of it is for humor, but still.

Nice to see the Order turning things around after their mass saving throw failure, anyway.

[JonahFalcon]

Just occurred to me if Elan never met Therkla, he'd never have Neutralize Poison as one of his spells....

[Skull the Troll]

There's a lot more telling rather than showing on this page than the comic usually has. I can see some of it is for humor, but still.

Nice to see the Order turning things around after their mass saving throw failure, anyway.

How would you show Belkar's apathy without words in a stick comic?

[urbanwolf]

Heal would cure the poison and remove the poison damage.

[Lheticus]

Does anyone else think it's hilarious that Belkar has basically been temporarily transfigured into a into a member of the Neutral Planet?

[Patterned_Pike]

I really like seeing Minrah immediately apologize to Belkar as she hits him with an emotion spell. It's nice to see the acknowledgement that it's kind of a morally ambiguous kind of magic.

[Thecommander236]

I guess Durkon did fail his save after all. Disappointing.

It DOES mean he can't rage though.

Rage isn't going to matter for a target you can't hit.


I am entirely happy with this turn of events. Also Bloodfeast in the second panel is somehow adorable.

Bloodfeast is a good boy.


Hmm.

I don’t think Xykon and Redcloak use mind-affecting abilities a whole lot. And stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil would help in a pinch.

Xykon has Symbol of Insanity that he used to kill 95% of the Sapphire's Guard's living paladins. I think that counts.


One minute per level.

For Mass Death Ward, that is correct. They're fine on that.


As always when second-guessing casters, it comes down to what spells they have prepared. Calm Emotions does strike me as a somewhat odd thing to have prepared for the situations the Order might expect from their plans for the day, though.

Why, she specifically said at one point that every member of the Order has weird mental issues. She and Durkon would've come up with a balance of spells and Calm Emotions for a mentally unstable group is something she would reasonably want.


Fair. The implication I got was that it was a standard action, just the wire "freedom" (as Holy Word, for example), but I'll cop to there being nothing to really indicate that otherwise.

I'm on your side here.


Also, I thought Durkon got off Cure Poison in the last page, but he botched the spell when he got Flesh to Stoned. Didn't noticed that. Roy definitely still has the poison effect on him what with the green bubbles and everything.

[Devils_Advocate]

Bloodfeast is a class feature?

Mr. Scruffy is definitely Belkar's Animal Companion, but don't Rangers only get one of those?

I guess "Handle Animal as a class skill" is a class feature...
Wild Empathy is a Ranger class feature that I'm pretty sure Belkar used on Bloodfeast.

But unlike in the case of an Animal Companion or a Familiar, I wouldn't describe that by saying that Bloodfeast is a class feature, if you want to get pedantic. And getting pedantic is at least part of what a lot of us are in this discussion to do.


Elves are typically immune to sleep effects
Elves are only explicitly immune to magic sleep effects, thus excluding non-magical poison.


The only poison effect in the Rules As Written that knocks people out (and isn't just tons of mental ability score damage) is explicitly "Unconsciousness" rather than "Sleep" so that elves aren't immune to it - considering the primary poison that does that is Drow poison, and they like to use it on above-ground elves.
I imagine that drow also like to use sleep poison on other drow, and that their own as well as other elves' immunity to sleep magic contributed to drow developments in this field.


After all, country music has a lot to say about America.

...not much actual variety of things to say, mind you, but that never stopped it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE&ab_channel=BBCStudios).
"You know the words, you know the phrases." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7im5LT09a0)

[Doug Lampert]

Steve Goodman would like a quiet word ... can you cast the speak with dead spell? :smallwink:

Speak with dead won't work, it doesn't actually speak to the dead guy.


Speak with Dead
Necromancy [Language-Dependent]
Level: Clr 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 10 ft.
Target: One dead creature
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it. You may ask one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive.

If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails. You can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all.

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned.

This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature.

Note the bold.

[Marsala]

Man, Serini cannot hit Haley at all. If she somehow manages to lose the battle, it will be because she wasted dozens of attacks on Haley instead of just taking out the rest of the Order.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Speak with dead won't work, it doesn't actually speak to the dead guy.



Note the bold.



I get that, but there was that one joke where roys dad scolded him for not speaking with dead before, as in talking to him.

it was a joke in comic, and there was the instance where RC used the spell to speak to a goblin about where xykons keys were. the dead goblin was annoyed about being interupted from his rest, but I could see this as a gag too.

outside of jokes, does this spell have the same effect, or is it restricted to comedy? rule of cool? rule of dramatic effect? etc etc?

[Squire Doodad]

I, as Squire Doodad, am very proud of Belkar's little brooch doodad. They are doing a great service to the field of doodadery.


As always when second-guessing casters, it comes down to what spells they have prepared. Calm Emotions does strike me as a somewhat odd thing to have prepared for the situations the Order might expect from their plans for the day, though.

Since this is the same spell loadout as they were packing to talk to Redcloak, it'd come in handy for diplomatic reasons in a variety of middling-probability scenarios.
I can easily imagine a scenario where Redcloak agrees to Durkon's plan, and then has a panic attack about the idea of fighting Xykon.

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar: Tell my wife, "Hello."

[F.Harr]

It's like a puzzle, ain't it?

[Alexandrite]

How would you show Belkar's apathy without words in a stick comic?

I thought his dull expression and flat "Oh, I'm being attacked" "Meh" "I guess" dialogue got the message across well enough without him going on to say "this is how I'm feeling right now".

The average reader can probably also figure out that Belkar's clasp removed the charm Elan was under, but he at least already likes to talk a lot. Summon Exposition is a Bard class skill.

Ultimately this doesn't matter that much, but the comic's writing is almost always at a very high standard so it's noticeable when something could've been done better.

[DreamCreator]

Wow, Bloodthief took initiative in a positive way, showing that it is one of the most capable members of the party. In fact, it seems that there is an inverse relationship between someone's duration with the Order and their effectiveness.

I also like how these strips are good examples of how action economy (https://www.dungeonsolvers.com/2018/06/01/understanding-the-action-economy-in-dd-5e/) plays out in encounters.
If Serini had really prepared for this fight, she would have had several creatures around to tie up the Order. Or at least throw a tanglefoot bag (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html). Who would have thought a paladin would have been prepared for an ambush than an epic rouge?

That reminds me that there is still (what I believe to be) an Earth Elemental, or perhaps a Mimic, covering the door. The order is not aware of the presence of that creature. That means it has the element of surprise and is potentially anotehr very powerful creature for them to deal with.

But if it enters the battle, the Order will also know why they couldn't Stone Shape the door, and they will be more likely to be able to get out.


Hmm.

I don’t think Xykon and Redcloak use mind-affecting abilities a whole lot. And stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil would help in a pinch.

Remember Symbol Of Insanity? The Order isn't a room full of low level Paladins, but he may pull that one out again.

[Wraithfighter]

I'd say that the nice thing about Calm Emotions is that it's an AOE that neutralize a wide variety of stuff, and it's only a 2nd level spell. Minrah's not going get much use out of any second level spells against Xykon and Redcloak, so her spell list is going to be largely support and buffing... and since you don't have to prepare healing spells, why not grab it just in case you need to neutralize something instead of casting Cure Moderate Wounds?

[RatElemental]

I thought his dull expression and flat "Oh, I'm being attacked" "Meh" "I guess" dialogue got the message across well enough without him going on to say "this is how I'm feeling right now".

The average reader can probably also figure out that Belkar's clasp removed the charm Elan was under, but he at least already likes to talk a lot. Summon Exposition is a Bard class skill.

Ultimately this doesn't matter that much, but the comic's writing is almost always at a very high standard so it's noticeable when something could've been done better.

The only place it seems to come up unprompted is when he says he's indifferent to Mr. Scrufy trying to kill him. He says he's not worried in response to Elan telling him not to worry, and clarifies when Elan expresses confusion with what may be a futurama reference. Before that he just said he was okay doing something Minrah told him to do in response to her telling him to do it.

[RMS Oceanic]

For all the talk of poison, I don't think we've seen any evidence from the paladins that it did any damage to them. While it's operating off poison rules, I think it's just acting as a tranquilizer.

As for how they can do this over several rounds, it's because Haley is keeping Serini and Sunny focused on her.

[danielxcutter]

Well, the Total Defense action would certainly help. Not sure if it'd be fun for me to do it, but I guess this is a story and not a game. Also it's been like two rounds I think?

[Fyraltari]

Well, the Total Defense action would certainly help. Not sure if it'd be fun for me to do it, but I guess this is a story and not a game. Also it's been like two rounds I think?

Since Sunny's mass attack? If so couldn't they have attacked again?

[danielxcutter]

Since Sunny's mass attack? If so couldn't they have attacked again?

Oh, got confused because Serini's been shooting at her almost exclusively after dropping Roy.

[Charity322]

I love Bloodfeast in the last panel; still hanging on while basically being thrown around by the lashing tail. XD

[Morquard]

As always when second-guessing casters, it comes down to what spells they have prepared. Calm Emotions does strike me as a somewhat odd thing to have prepared for the situations the Order might expect from their plans for the day, though.

It might also be that Minrah has the Law domain as one of her two domain choices (could totally see that), and Calm Emotions was the better choice of the two spells she gets there
(Yes Thor is not lawful, but the dwarves very much are)

[elros]

Man, Serini cannot hit Haley at all. If she somehow manages to lose the battle, it will be because she wasted dozens of attacks on Haley instead of just taking out the rest of the Order.
I know things in the comic happen to further the plot, and I am a quite rusty about 3.5 ranged combat rules, but I find it amazing that an epic thief is not able to hit a single target even once.
When you consider that Serini's gate defenses required a high level rogue to recognize and disarm the trap, you would think that the defenses after that would be designed specifically to stop a rogue who is dodging.

[Flechette63]

Elves are only explicitly immune to magic sleep effects, thus excluding non-magical poison.


I imagine that drow also like to use sleep poison on other drow, and that their own as well as other elves' immunity to sleep magic contributed to drow developments in

I was all set to disagree with that reading based on the elf stat block but then I read the description of Drow poison and I'm forced to agree. Still odd since the description I'm looking at for Drow poison specifies the unconscious condition (the root of my quibble) so the bit clarifying that nonmagical sleep works seems slightly off to me. Still, I learned something today. Been a while since I played 3.5 and we never really dealt with that ability in game.

[Liquor Box]

Protection from evil actually protects from all mind controlling effects not just from evil. The evil protection part comes in as an ac and saving throw bonus as well as forbidding summoned creatures other than good ones from touching you.


Why do you think the protection from evil clasp didn't protect Belkar from the fear effect?

[hamishspence]

Why do you think the protection from evil clasp didn't protect Belkar from the fear effect?
Because "fear" is not exercising ongoing mental control.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

If the beholder's Spell-like-Ability is the same as the spell (except for being a ray rather than a cone), then it's necromancy, not enchantment:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm

[Morquard]

Why do you think the protection from evil clasp didn't protect Belkar from the fear effect?

Belkar didn't have the clasp active.

[Phantom Thief]

"I hate these filthy neutrals. With enemies you know where you stand, but neutrals? Who knows."

[Kardwill]

Fair. The implication I got was that it was a standard action, just the wire "freedom" (as Holy Word, for example), but I'll cop to there being nothing to really indicate that otherwise.

We just missed the 1 minute long awesome guit... Lute solo that came before that word ^^

[Fyraltari]

Why do you think the protection from evil clasp didn't protect Belkar from the fear effect?

Because it has to be turned on?

[Quizatzhaderac]

That reminds me that there is still (what I believe to be) an Earth Elemental, or perhaps a Mimic, covering the door. The order is not aware of the presence of that creature. That means it has the element of surprise and is potentially anotehr very powerful creature for them to deal with.It's a surprise elemental.

[JonahFalcon]

Because it has to be turned on?

And the clasp being active is ... painful for Belkar.

[danielxcutter]

Pretty sure Rich clarified that Mimi's a mimic yeah.

[Wintermoot]

Pretty sure Rich clarified that Mimi's a mimic yeah.

Where? I saw people hypothesing she's a mimic, but nothing from Rich directly.

[danielxcutter]

Where? I saw people hypothesing she's a mimic, but nothing from Rich directly.

His Twitter account. There's a link to that in the sidebar, isn't there? Shouldn't be that far back.

[Fyraltari]

His Twitter account. There's a link to that in the sidebar, isn't there? Shouldn't be that far back.

Strictly speaking, all he said was a joke about treasure chests being designed after mimics rather than the other way around. But given the context it's almost a confirmation that Mimi's a mimic.

[Hasric]

Reminds me of how effective V was as a lizard

[wilphe]

Thanks to your prompt to review that panel, I've also noticed later Haley saying "V and the boys are all out of it". So Haley doesn't think of V as one of the boys. Interesting.

This is consistent with

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

Where Haley shares a room with V

[Wintermoot]

Strictly speaking, all he said was a joke about treasure chests being designed after mimics rather than the other way around. But given the context it's almost a confirmation that Mimi's a mimic.

Yeah I went and read it. It don't really see it as confirmation. But then again I'm heavily invested in believing Mimi is an Earth Elemental so there's some bias.

[Dion]

So Haley doesn't think of V as one of the boys. Interesting.

I believe V is not a boy.


But given the context it's almost a confirmation that Mimi's a mimic.

Also, Mimi is shown mimicking both a pile of debris and a wall. She may not *be* a mimic, but she certainly has the ability to mimic a mimic.

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe V is not a boy.

V is not a boy. At the very least, V is a fully grown adult. :smallwink:

[Blue Dragon]

I don't get it.


Also, who's better? Calm Emotions Belkar or Owl's Wisdom Belkar?

Owl's Wisdom Belkar

[Liquor Box]

Because "fear" is not exercising ongoing mental control.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm



If the beholder's Spell-like-Ability is the same as the spell (except for being a ray rather than a cone), then it's necromancy, not enchantment:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm

The Fear spell is listed as mind effecting, and I can't see anything in any of the other spell descriptors (confusion or crushing despair etc) don't seem to have anything specifying that they exercise mental control. I don't see any distinction in the spell descriptions.


Belkar didn't have the clasp active.


Because it has to be turned on?

Makes sense, I assumed it was permanent because Elan doesn't appear to turn it on

[bunsen_h]

Makes sense, I assumed it was permanent because Elan doesn't appear to turn it on

When Belkar first acquired the thing (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/It%27s_Only_His_SECOND_Favorite_Cuisine), he was told to activate it by rubbing it.

[Blue Dragon]

Finally! Couldn't wait anymore! Great comic, already looking forward the next strip!

And hoping that Team Evil don't arrive at the worst possible moment.

[JT]

Owl's Wisdom Belkar

Calm Emotions Belkar doesn't really care what you think.

[BriarHobbit]

This was a great comic. I was dismayed that Durkon failed his Fortitude save and has been knocked out of the fight. There were so many surprises in this comic. Scratch is stronger that I thought, as he tosses around a certain polymorphed T-Rex. That T-Rex/lizard is smarter than it looks. The party is still in serious trouble. I hope that they can pull this one out.

[danielxcutter]

The Fear spell is listed as mind effecting, and I can't see anything in any of the other spell descriptors (confusion or crushing despair etc) don't seem to have anything specifying that they exercise mental control. I don't see any distinction in the spell descriptions.


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Fear is a Mind-Affecting spell, but does not possess or mentally control the target. Therefore, Protection From [Alignment] can't block against it. It also wouldn't be able to block against spells like Power Word Kill, for example. Charm Person is an Enchantment(Charm) effect though, so the clasp's effect works just fine on Elan.

[Fyraltari]

This was a great comic. I was dismayed that Durkon failed his Fortitude save and has been knocked out of the fight. There were so many surprises in this comic. Scratch is stronger that I thought, as he tosses around a certain polymorphed T-Rex. That T-Rex/lizard is smarter than it looks. The party is still in serious trouble. I hope that they can pull this one out.
Mr. Scruffy once disemboweled a gladiator in one strike, fighting a polymorphed allosaurus to a standstill is not out of the question.

[danielxcutter]

Mr. Scruffy once disemboweled a gladiator in one strike, fighting a polymorphed allosaurus to a standstill is not out of the question.

To be fair that gladiator was just a level 1 Commoner.

[The MunchKING]

V is not a boy. At the very least, V is a fully grown adult. :smallwink:

And yet Roy, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar ARE?:smallwink:

[Schroeswald]

And yet Roy, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar ARE?:smallwink:

Are you sure Belkar and Elan are fully grown adults? Are you sure?

[LuPuWei]

For the 'Dumb Fighter' of the team, poor Roy keeps getting 'Professor X'ed...

[KorvinStarmast]

I was dismayed that Durkon failed his Fortitude save Demands of plot.

[Riftwolf]

Demands of plot.

Wonder if there's a prestige class for petrified dwarves...
Also nice to see Minrah being low-level effective and Bloodfeast being suspiciously intelligent.

[Quizatzhaderac]

And yet Roy, Elan, Durkon, and Belkar ARE?:smallwink:Haley obvious means "boys" in the sense of pre-marriage males; which is everyone except V and herself.

[bunsen_h]

To be fair that gladiator was just a level 1 Commoner.

Do we have a clear indication of whether or not Bloodfeast made its saving throw to retain its original HPs, memories, etc.? That would make a big difference in terms of how even the fight would be. Mr. Scruffy has more attacks and better potential for doing damage, I think, so I suppose it could be a more even fight than might otherwise be the case even if Bloodfeast still has the HPs of an allosaur.

[Thermophille]

Do we have a clear indication of whether or not Bloodfeast made its saving throw to retain its original HPs, memories, etc.? That would make a big difference in terms of how even the fight would be. Mr. Scruffy has more attacks and better potential for doing damage, I think, so I suppose it could be a more even fight than might otherwise be the case even if Bloodfeast still has the HPs of an allosaur.

Would Bloodfeast still have its BAB from being an allosaur? It would explain being able to hit a vampire's AC.

[Fyraltari]

Haley obvious means "boys" in the sense of pre-marriage males; which is everyone except V and herself.

You heard it, folks: Minrah is a(n untransitionned) trans man.

[RatElemental]

Wonder if there's a prestige class for petrified dwarves...
Also nice to see Minrah being low-level effective and Bloodfeast being suspiciously intelligent.

Well there's renegade mastermaker which lets you slowly turn yourself into a living golem. That... almost fits?

[Reboot]

Would Bloodfeast still have its BAB from being an allosaur? It would explain being able to hit a vampire's AC.
No: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm

Considering that he was an animal to start with, the only things that would make a difference from making the saving throw are HD & HP. BAB is specifically excluded.

[TerrickTerran]

Never knew how much I'd enjoy an emotionless Belkar but I do.:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

The Fear spell is listed as mind effecting, and I can't see anything in any of the other spell descriptors (confusion or crushing despair etc) don't seem to have anything specifying that they exercise mental control. I don't see any distinction in the spell descriptions.]

Fear doesn't provide any kind of control. You can't choose where they run, what abilities they use to escape, when they stop running and cower instead etc.

Confusion is in a similar boat. Pro:Evil is not Mind Blank.

[Skull the Troll]

No: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm

Considering that he was an animal to start with, the only things that would make a difference from making the saving throw are HD & HP. BAB is specifically excluded.

Excepts he's probably forgotten being a allosaur at this point. Imagine full-sized Bloodfeast trying to scurry under the couch! :)

[Chauncymancer]

Does PfE freeing Elan imply that Sunny is Evil?

You heard it, folks: Minrah is a(n untransitionned) trans man.
Minrah is the subject of this sentence, so obviously excluded from the described group.

[PattThe]

Haley obvious means "boys" in the sense of pre-marriage males; which is everyone except V and herself.
Q: "What separates the men from the boys?"
Haley: "Commitment."

[bunsen_h]

Excepts he's probably forgotten being a allosaur at this point. Imagine full-sized Bloodfeast trying to scurry under the couch! :)

Per the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm), the affected creature has to make a save only once to avoid forgetting about its prior life right away. It isn't clear how quickly an animal might be expected to lose its memories just on the basis of having fairly limited cognition. ("Am I a lizard dreaming that I am an allosaur, or am I an allosaur that dreamed of being a lizard?")

I have a vague recollection of a book mentioning a really large pet that used to hide in a small location when it was a baby, which never grasped that it was no longer able to fit in there, and caused havoc whenever it tried. But the recollection is refusing to come into focus for me.

[Nith]

Question for those of you who know DnD better than I do: Does Elan have to keep the clasp on to not fall back to the magic effect or can he saefly take it off now that it has cured him?

[Yuki Akuma]

He needs to keep it on until the Charm Person SLA expires.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Fear is a Mind-Affecting spell

I must not fail my save against Fear.

Fear is the Mind-Affecter.

Fear is the low-level spell that brings Total Party Kill.

I will face my Fear spell.

I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past, I will roll the d20 to determine its effect.

Where the Fear spell has been cast, there will be nothing.

Only my PC will remain.

[Nith]

He needs to keep it on until the Charm Person SLA expires.

I'm sorry, SLA?

[hamishspence]

Spell-Like Ability.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities

[ff7hero]

I must not fail my save against Fear.

Fear is the Mind-Affecter.

Fear is the low-level spell that brings Total Party Kill.

I will face my Fear spell.

I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past, I will roll the d20 to determine its effect.

Where the Fear spell has been cast, there will be nothing.

Only my PC will remain.

*golf clap*

[Riftwolf]

Question for those of you who know DnD better than I do: Does Elan have to keep the clasp on to not fall back to the magic effect or can he saefly take it off now that it has cured him?

In short, no. The clasp suspends the effect, not cured it. Think of it like putting your hand over the lens of a flashlight. You haven't switched the light off, you've just stopped it from lighting up the room. If you move your hand away, the torch lights up the room again. A spell like Dispel Magic would switch the flashlight off.

[Nith]

In short, no. The clasp suspends the effect, not cured it. Think of it like putting your hand over the lens of a flashlight. You haven't switched the light off, you've just stopped it from lighting up the room. If you move your hand away, the torch lights up the room again. A spell like Dispel Magic would switch the flashlight off.

Thank you!

[Reboot]

In short, no. The clasp suspends the effect, not cured it. Think of it like putting your hand over the lens of a flashlight. You haven't switched the light off, you've just stopped it from lighting up the room. If you move your hand away, the torch lights up the room again. A spell like Dispel Magic would switch the flashlight off.

Of course, Elan *has* Greater Dispel Magic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) as one of his spells. Firing off an area dispel wouldn't be the worst of ideas right now - if he makes the roll, it gets rid of the Charm on himself, Fear on Belkar, whatever-it-is on Scruffy, Slow on V (although V would need extra spells to get back up, which he seems to be prioritising) and gets Haley her bow back.

[JonahFalcon]

Of course, Elan *has* Greater Dispel Magic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) as one of his spells. Firing off an area dispel wouldn't be the worst of ideas right now - if he makes the roll, it gets rid of the Charm on himself, Fear on Belkar, whatever-it-is on Scruffy, Slow on V (although V would need extra spells to get back up, which he seems to be prioritising) and gets Haley her bow back.

Elan has Neutralize Poison, which is his first priority with V.

[bunsen_h]

Of course, Elan *has* Greater Dispel Magic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) as one of his spells. Firing off an area dispel wouldn't be the worst of ideas right now - if he makes the roll, it gets rid of the Charm on himself, Fear on Belkar, whatever-it-is on Scruffy, Slow on V (although V would need extra spells to get back up, which he seems to be prioritising) and gets Haley her bow back.

Just as long as it gets Durkon back into action, to do the healing that would be necessary from being underfoot with Bloodfeast back at full size in a confined space.

[danielxcutter]

Greater Dispel Magic's not enough for undoing petrification. Besides, a single area dispel isn't nearly enough to reliably undo any of the effects Sunny's done; it's more likely to just zap one of their own buffs.

[Yendor]

Besides, a single area dispel isn't nearly enough to reliably undo any of the effects Sunny's done; it's more likely to just zap one of their own buffs.

Well then, that's obviously what will happen next. And it will be... before... V... can... explain.

[danielxcutter]

I hope not. I want to see the Order actually being competent.

[Peelee]

I hope not. I want to see the Order actually being competent.

Meanwhile, I want to see an entertaining scene without demanding exact moment-by-moment constant winning by the Order in every strip from now until the end of the comic.

[danielxcutter]

Meanwhile, I want to see an entertaining scene without demanding exact moment-by-moment constant winning by the Order in every strip from now until the end of the comic.

Don't have to win to be competent. I'm thinking of stuff like the dining hall fight, where they went down from a few blown saves but still went out swinging and did well before that point. Instead of cheesing it with Sunny's AMF and then incapacitating most of the Order with a hail mary like it's been so far.

[Peelee]

Don't have to win to be competent. I'm thinking of stuff like the dining hall fight, where they went down from a few blown saves but still went out swinging and did well before that point. Instead of cheesing it with Sunny's AMF and then incapacitating most of the Order with a hail mary like it's been so far.

What you define as "competent" sounds to me like "never failing". And you want it in each and every strip. I suspect you're going to be frustrated with many strips if you take each one piecemeal and only analyze how they are doing in that strip alone, when they are meant to be part of a greater whole.

Or, more simply: you called the last strip "ground into paste", while this strip shows that was merely a setback for them to overcome. Fight ain't over, dude. Let it happen.

[danielxcutter]

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

[Fyraltari]

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

So you are complaining because the fight is going the way you want it to?

I think it's worth taking a look at how The Giant writes fight scenes:


For battles (https://www.patreon.com/posts/50478064), I almost never [script the entire scene in advance], though I often have an idea of the end condition—what needs to happen for it to not be a fight anymore. Then I sort of wing it strip to strip until I get to that result. For example, when I started working on the showdown outside the dwarven council chamber, I didn’t really have anything planned out except for the end part inside the room. The inclusion of the giant death worm was entirely spur-of-the-moment, as was the personality I gave him and the fact that he ate Kandro (I expected Kandro to die, I just hadn’t worked out how). I’ve found that overplanning the battle scenes tends to make them feel like foregone conclusions, while scripting by the seat of my pants makes it more likely that the action will take some intersting twists and turns before it gets to the end.

[Metastachydium]

Don't have to win to be competent. I'm thinking of stuff like the dining hall fight, where they went down from a few blown saves but still went out swinging and did well before that point. Instead of cheesing it with Sunny's AMF and then incapacitating most of the Order with a hail mary like it's been so far.


Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

You do realize that S&S had to pull that hail mary precisely because the Order put up a competent fight and turned the table on them? Which means this is like the dining hall fight (the Order fights well, but the enemies pull some special ability and everyone fails those saves).

[danielxcutter]

I’m not complaining about the comic NOW. I’m just complaining that me wanting the Order to actually get stuff done makes you guys all but say I’m whining.

[Peelee]

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

The entire fight isn't going like 1241 though. And it never has. You're acting like it would be before the fight was even finished. That's the issue. Your own assumptions seem like they're what's making you upset here.

[danielxcutter]

I’m not saying that it is or will I’m just saying I don’t want it TO BE like that.

[Peelee]

I’m not saying that it is or will I’m just saying I don’t want it TO BE like that.

Slbut you get why you've gotten so much pushback, right? You're saying that you don't like what's happening before that's even really happened. You had issues with the last comic because you didn't want it to go in. A certain direction, and liked this comic because it turned out to not go in that direction. It's like saying "man I really hate that Roy lost his sword forever" back when he dropped it in the mountains - yes, I would have really hated that, but I waited until after the scene was done to really even see that as a probably outcome. We're in the middle of a fight scene, and often times the Giant has those go back and forth between the combatants. At the first volley you started assuming that it was over and specifically said you hated that the Order was ground into paste. But they weren't. You saw a foregone conclusion and complained about that instead of what was actually happening. And that is why I, for one, did not think it was a fair criticism.

[Skull the Troll]

The problem sometimes is that we have times for weeks-long discussions about things that happen two seconds apart in the story. I don't think he's whining if he says he doesn't like a certain direction at a particular point in time, but you also have a good point about sometimes you have to wait (weeks, months, even years and decades) to get certain answers. In the beginning it was a bit unbelievable from a rules standpoint what happened, but it didn't bother me because I have seen some crazy things happen with dice in my time. an entire party blowing an easy save ain't nuthin'. I remember a run that had the entire party (3 people) roll a fumble for two straight rounds. It happens, but we still complain about it years later though.

[Psyren]

Bloodfeast is the MVP here so far - well, next to Haley anyway :smalltongue:

[Angelalex242]

Belkar: Dear Diary, Mood:Apathetic...my life is spiralling donwards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibsv1qrHGVE

[Potatopeelerkin]

This forum does have a bit of a tendency to jump down people's throats when people say they don't like aspects of the plot, think parts don't make sense, or disagree with some of the conclusions the narrative comes to.

It's natural that not everyone agrees on what a good story should look like, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you say you don't like the way a scene is written the amount of pressure there is to justify it as objective truth in order for it to be worth saying is a bit ridiculous. Some of the responses danielxcutter is getting are quite confrontational for what is really a very subjective subject.

[Tsriel]

I lol'd harder than I meant to with the last panel.

[KorvinStarmast]

This forum does have a bit of a tendency to jump down people's throats when people say they don't like aspects of the plot, think parts don't make sense, or disagree with some of the conclusions the narrative comes to.

It's natural that not everyone agrees on what a good story should look like, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you say you don't like the way a scene is written the amount of pressure there is to justify it as objective truth in order for it to be worth saying is a bit ridiculous. Some of the responses danielxcutter is getting are quite confrontational for what is really a very subjective subject. Yeah, I noticed that as well. I too find the "can't make a saving throw" incidence to be a bit annoying; as noted in another post, the copper piece harlot servicing drama (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) seems to be an offered excuse. Not worth getting in an uproar over, but as a player of D&D who has played a few high level games (the story emulates this being a high level quest at this point for the party) it comes off as dissonant. On the other hand, when you have seven PCs and three animal companions to share the spotlight some convolutions are going to happen to balance out the narrative and set up the jokes.

[Wintermoot]

Yeah, I noticed that as well. I too find the "can't make a saving throw" incidence to be a bit annoying; as noted in another post, the copper piece harlot servicing drama (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) seems to be an offered excuse. Not worth getting in an uproar over, but as a player of D&D who has played a few high level games (the story emulates this being a high level quest at this point for the party) it comes off as dissonant. On the other hand, when you have seven PCs and three animal companions to share the spotlight some convolutions are going to happen to balance out the narrative and set up the jokes.

See, that is a perfectly reasonable and well stated complaint. "I don't like that everyone missed their saving throw because it is dissonant with my experience playing the game, but I understand that this is a story, not a game and sometimes concessions have to be made"

I have no problem with that. I don't agree with it, but it's a perfectly valid complaint. And you recognize it's a subjective experience.

But Potatopeelerkin's post is very one-sided about "the forum jumping down people's throats when they say they don't like aspects of the plot". If people posted like you posted, they wouldn't "get attacked" (not that I agree that Daniel or others ARE being attacked)

Daniel and others DON'T come in and say "I don't like this." They come in with outrageous hyperbole like "The Order gets pounded into dirt" and "the comic is ruined" and so on.

Its natural for the other side to come to the defense of the comic when attacked in such a ham-handed and over-the-top fashion. The party isn't pounded into dirt. This is one round in a multi round combat. The comic isn't 'ruined'. On contrary, slavish following of the rules WOULD ruin the comic because what's fun in playing a game, wouldn't necessarily work when writing a narrative.

I don't mind if Daniel and others don't like an aspect of the plot. I mind with Daniel and others say the comic is OBJECTIVELY ruined and bad and Rich is a hack who doesn't know the rules and so on and so on.

So I disagree with Potatopeelerkin. From my viewpoint, its not the forum jumping down Daniel's throat and demanding he show objective proof for his dislike. its Daniel recognizing his dislike is SUBJECTIVE that's needed. Perhaps by not overstating every complaint with aggressive confrontational language. Perhaps by acknowledging that, yeah the story needs often differ from the simulationist needs, exactly as you do.


Look: Here's -my- complaint. I don't care about the party all missing saving throws. I've ALSO playing in many high level campaigns. though mostly in 2nd Edition and Pathfinder, not in 3rdE. And I've seen this happen plenty of times.

What triggers me is I don't care for Serini's super knockout poison. Why? Because the poison rules in 3rdE and Pathfinder are garbage which render poisons useless. The best they ever do is a little ability damage with maybe a sickened rider or something. And they all have distressingly low saving throws. The idea that Roy or O'chul could be taken out by any poison is laughable.

BUT, its a story, not a simulation. So I can let that go even though is triggers MY simulationist dissonance.

[danielxcutter]

Hold the hell up. I never said that the comic was ruined and I absolutely didn't say Rich was a hack who doesn't know anything. I explicitly said I like how the fight is going now.

[elros]

Regarding adhering to the rules versus following the plot: authors of fantasy novels recommend never putting your party's adventure into story form. You may use the characters or adventures as inspiration, but the flow of a story is very different than what happens on the tabletop.
That is why I expect unusual probabilities and other twists- it makes for a better story. If people want to see a campaign occur, they could watch something on Twitch!

[Drake Halfmoon]

For anyone complaining about characters failing their Will Saves, I should point out that the showdown with Roy and Durkula featured Roy making most of his Will Saves and even the fight in the Dungeon showed Roy resisting the Vampires' hypnotic gazes.

In this fight, Serini and Sunny had home-field advantage, which included the element of surprise, a closed space where a Beholder can be super-effective, and multiple magic items.

And the battle isn't even over yet; in fact, Serini is continuing to make the same error as before. She's focusing all of her effort into neutralizing Haley. This gave Bloodfeast the opportunity to awaken Minrah who calmed Belkar, who freed Elan of Sunny's charm. So far she is 0 for 12 in tagging our beloved Rogue (on-panel) and is showing no signs of altering her strategy.

If Haley can keep dodging, the rest of the Order can get back in action, and it should be a clean victory. Failing that, they can pull of their most successful stratagem; running away.

[gellerche]

Just wanted to say I love the foreground/background effect in panel 5!

[Squire Doodad]

And the battle isn't even over yet; in fact, Serini is continuing to make the same error as before. She's focusing all of her effort into neutralizing Haley. This gave Bloodfeast the opportunity to awaken Minrah who calmed Belkar, who freed Elan of Sunny's charm. So far she is 0 for 12 in tagging our beloved Rogue (on-panel) and is showing no signs of altering her strategy.

To be fair, Bloodfeast is not exactly an obvious threat, and for a round or two Haley was the only unoccupied member of the Order. Haley may be the only one getting good rolls here and is getting consistent 12s and 17s and will fail once she gets a 7 or worse. I would have expected her wealth of magic items to also involve some sort of improved blasting alternative, but I guess Sunny is a dozen magic items in one.

[madrobin]

This forum does have a bit of a tendency to jump down people's throats when people say they don't like aspects of the plot, think parts don't make sense, or disagree with some of the conclusions the narrative comes to.

It's natural that not everyone agrees on what a good story should look like, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you say you don't like the way a scene is written the amount of pressure there is to justify it as objective truth in order for it to be worth saying is a bit ridiculous. Some of the responses danielxcutter is getting are quite confrontational for what is really a very subjective subject.

Well, it's the internet, a place where everyone is an expert (and usually, the only expert) and the rules of civil discourse, decorum, and rationality get flung out the window. Opinions are stated as fact and disagreement with those opinions is likewise stated with a degree of anger and outrage that makes no sense.

I love the OOTS story, and the Giant is an excellent writer, but there are some aspects of the story I don't like and quite a few where I think the overall narrative was subtracted from rather than added to. I realize that this is blasphemy as far as some are concerned. But hell, there's some Shakespeare I don't like, and some where the plot really just doesn't hold together.

We really shouldn't stone the unbeliever(s). That's so Last Century {scrubbed}.

[danielxcutter]

Please don’t start a flame war over me.

[RatElemental]

To be fair, Bloodfeast is not exactly an obvious threat, and for a round or two Haley was the only unoccupied member of the Order. Haley may be the only one getting good rolls here and is getting consistent 12s and 17s and will fail once she gets a 7 or worse. I would have expected her wealth of magic items to also involve some sort of improved blasting alternative, but I guess Sunny is a dozen magic items in one.

Ever since her bow got taken away Haley's not made a single roll, actually. Well, technically, no one's made any rolls for the entire run of the comic, but I digress; Serini is the one flubbing her attack rolls on Haley, unless Haley just has an AC in low orbit.

[mrelegos]

Roy made rolls when he played 1st edition while he was dead.

[PattThe]

Ever since her bow got taken away Haley's not made a single roll, actually. Well, technically, no one's made any rolls for the entire run of the comic, but I digress; Serini is the one flubbing her attack rolls on Haley, unless Haley just has an AC in low orbit.
I assumed she was dodging. What are the rules on that in 3.x?

[mrelegos]

I assumed she was dodging. What are the rules on that in 3.x?

Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

(Taken from d20srd)

So even if Haley is taking actions to dodge, she's still not rolling. Just increasing her AC by 4

[RatElemental]

Roy made rolls when he played 1st edition while he was dead.

Oh right, I forgot about that. I guess they did when they all played Parcheesi in Azure City too.

[Wintermoot]

Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

(Taken from d20srd)

So even if Haley is taking actions to dodge, she's still not rolling. Just increasing her AC by 4

I had a ninja with some third party feat once that let you make an acrobatics roll and use it in place of your AC for dodge missile attacks. Acrobatic Dodge or something like that. So maybe she's got that.

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/

[KorvinStarmast]

...but I guess Sunny is a dozen magic items in one. Nice one! :smallsmile:
/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/ But first, do you weigh as much as a duck?

[RatElemental]

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/

*Proceeds to vilify you for saying 'queue' instead of 'cue' instead*

[Wintermoot]

*Proceeds to vilify you for saying 'queue' instead of 'cue' instead*

ugh. I -am- the villain

/insert falling down Michael Douglas "I'm the bad guy?" gif/

[Jasdoif]

/queue class and level purists vilifying me for suggesting a third-party feat even though I'm totally joking/*Proceeds to vilify you for saying 'queue' instead of 'cue' instead*I think expecting a line to form is reasonable, actually.

[bunsen_h]

There was one fight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) which had all members of the Order either unconscious or helpless at the end. They only made it out through the actions of their adversaries.

[Vikenlugaid]

Ugh. No I don’t want them “never failing”. I just want them to put up a fight like they are now before they get captured and the IFCC butts in or something instead of the entire fight going like 1241.

But that is already happening.

[mjasghar]

Flame wars happen because people keep digging at an initial post 3 pages after its already been discussed 🤦*♂️

[Potatopeelerkin]

Flame wars happen because people keep digging at an initial post 3 pages after its already been discussed 🤦*♂️

Anyone want to talk about Miko?

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone want to talk about Miko? Sure. But since she's dead, let's be respectful. :smallbiggrin:

[Dion]

Sure. But since she's dead, let's be respectful. :smallbiggrin:

To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.

[Peelee]

To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.

The living can defend themselves.

So, in Stickworld, you're probably right. :smallamused:

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

[Peelee]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

Eh, Eugene is mostly bluster.

[danielxcutter]

I was going to suggest Xykon but that would have been too easy.

[Metastachydium]

I dunno, being rude to a ghost seems a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner.

What's not a quick and easy way to drastically shorten your expected lifespan as a 1st-level Commoner, though?