[3.5] Trollbane vs. Poison Immunity

[Thurbane]

So, the Trollbane poison in Dungeonscape can be very handy: it allows a weapon to bypass regeneration for one strike.

You could knock a creature unconscious with non-lethal damage, then CDG it with a weapon treated with Trollbane.

A recent thread about a regenerating Devil made me realise a weakness of Trollbane: creatures with immunity to poison. So I was wondering, is there any ways around this?

On a recent-ish thread about bypassing poison immunity, the only general method that came up was the Poisoner's Breath ability from an Aspect of Sertrous. Obviously this is not a very accessible option for many characters, especially at low-mid levels. Most other methods involved specific poisons, positoxins or ravages.

Short of house-ruling or home-brewing, are there other methods to either A.) suppress a creature's immunity to poison; or B.) a way to make Trollbane no longer count as a poison?

Looking for 3.5 RAW as much as possible, and options that might be viable for low-mid level characters. Also, looking specifically at the two questions above, not other workarounds for regeneration.

Cheers - T

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not sure if it's low enough level, but Baleful Polymorph (Wizard 5) could work against a devil?

[Thurbane]

I'm not sure if it's low enough level, but Baleful Polymorph (Wizard 5) could work against a devil?

Well, yes, that's true; but I think once you can unload a save or lose on the enemy, trying to CDG it becomes a bit of a moot point.

[Boci]

If changing a creature's type qualifies, there is also aberrant from book of vile darkness. The fiendish component may be hard to satisfy, but if changing them into an aberration strips them of poison immunity then its a useful spell to consider, since its only 1st level.

Or would it have to be a polymorph spell specifically?

[SangoProduction]

Back-porting Spheres of Might to 3.5 is trivial. They are essentially the same system.

Alchemy sphere's Specialized Venom lets you select a creature type / subtype from the ranger favored ... know what?


Specialized Venom
You select 1 creature type (or subtype) from the ranger favored enemy list; your poisons may affect creatures of that type even if they would normally be immune to poison (or ignore any racial bonuses they may possess to saving throws against poison). For every 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) you possess, you may select another creature type (or subtype).

Clarification: This is intended to work on creature types that are normally immune to poison, such as constructs. That includes allowing Specialized Venoms to bypass constructs' immunity to effects requiring Fortitude saves on top of their immunity to poisons. This does not inherently bypass other immunities, such as immunity to fatigue.

And if your DM demands it affect your toxins, and not just your poisons:


Catalyzed Poison (toxin) [Apoc]
Source: Spheres Apocrypha: Alchemy Poisons 2

You must expend an existing non-Alchemy sphere poison in your possession as part of creating this poison, and the type of poison created must be of the same type (inhaled, injury, etc.) as the poison expended. Instead of causing fatigue, your poison makes the target suffer the effects of the expended poison. Creatures who fail consecutive saving throws against this poison are subject to the secondary and tertiary effects of this poison (if any). The poison is still treated as an Alchemy sphere poison; using your Alchemy sphere DCs, and benefiting from your Alchemy sphere talents, and its effects (excluding damage) lasting as long as an Alchemy sphere poison.

This also has the effect of increasing... Oh, there is no save DC. So that's actually an argument you can attempt to use. There is no way to resist trollbane. Fort save: Infinity, does not prevent trollbane from doing its work.

[Tzardok]

I am pretty sure that the entries on poison immunity mention somewhere that certain creatures (like plants or fiends) may only be immune to normal poison and that specialized toxins exist that overcome that. If I were your GM, I would allow you to research a specialized anti-devil trollbane. Would propably make a whole adventure out of collecting the ingredients and stuff.

[ciopo]

Are there any such creature that both have regeneration and immunity to poison?

I could find only one such creature : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm

Unless I'm missing something obvious about poison immunity on high grade outsiders?

As far as I know, the relative uselessness of poison is more a matter of low DC, rather than blanket immunity? Of the creature types immune to it, only undead are "somewhat common", at least in my experience. Construct and elementals ranging between uncommon and rare, plant creature "once in a blue moon", and I don't think I've ever fought an ooze in years of gaming.

Personal bias here, of course ^^

Anyway, on the matter of poison immunity: I could argue that the poison immunity is a conseguence of no constitution score / automatic success on fortitude saves because of the "no constitution score/ biological processes". Trollbane doesn't offer a save. I could make a shaky RAW argument that it function as a poison per method of delivery, but doesn't have any of the hallmark of poisons (fortitude save, primary and secondary effect), thus call it an alchemical item, but not a poison.

A bit of argument in favor of this is the precedence of drugs from book of vile darkness, which explictly say "works like poison, and creatures immune to poison are also immune to drugs".

So, yeah, I'd argue "it's not a poison", very weak argument and not one I would seriously entertain, mind you. It does describe it as a poison, so a duck is a duck

[Tzardok]

Are there any such creature that both have regeneration and immunity to poison?

I could find only one such creature : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm

Unless I'm missing something obvious about poison immunity on high grade outsiders?


All batezu have poison immunity. Pit fiends (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) are batezu with regeneration.

[ShurikVch]

All batezu have poison immunity. Pit fiends (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) are batezu with regeneration.
Not even only Pit Fiends - Abishai (all kinds), Advespa, Amnizu, Ayperobos Swarm, Chain Devils, Desert Devils, Horned Devils, Ice Devils, Malebranche, Pleasure Devils, and all the infernal aristocracy (not even just Archdukes)
Besides Devils, there are also Tarrasque, Atropal, Phaethon, and Kyuss (the Elder Evil)