Why no love for the War Magic Wizard? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Unoriginal

2021-08-19, 07:55 AM

Catullus64

2021-08-19, 08:00 AM

Because a lot of people calling themselves optimizers think that using your Reaction to cast Shield is better, don't value initiative unless acting first is a key element of the build, and don't think the extra damage happens often enough or is big enough to be worthwhile.

You do see War Wizard suggested when high-initiative builds, caster builds that already habe decent AC and saves but need a boost to be great, or builds that need all they can get to keep concentration going are discussed/workshopped, but most of the time people don't think War Wizard by itself brings enoughto the table.

This, with corollary that a lot of people driven primarily by roleplay concerns find more interesting meat to dig into in just about any other Wizard subclass from the get-go.

On the optimization front, Power Surge is rather fiddly to use and keep track of, for extremely minor benefit.

Warder

2021-08-19, 08:07 AM

The War Wizard gets all its cool stuff at level 2, and then nothing more that's worth talking about until level 10. I've played one until level 11 and had a great time, but it mostly came down to the initiative bonus and, well, being a wizard, the best class in the game. Being able to go first is a big deal when it comes to controlling the battlefield.

But then you get to Power Surge which is a really bad ability when you first get it - to the point where bookkeeping it for the marginal benefit you get from it is more trouble than it's worth - and it gets worse and worse as you gain levels and face more difficult enemies. Durable Magic is fantastic, but it's yet another passive ability on top of Tactical Wit so it's not a very exciting level; overall, War Magic is certainly not bad, but it doesn't really let you do anything new, it "just" lets you be a better wizard. Which is still pretty amazing, mind.

KorvinStarmast

2021-08-19, 08:09 AM

(ex: Dungeon Dudes rated it C tier).
Wizards are fine. War wizard is fine. Tell Dungeon Dudes to stop with their "you're doing it wrong" nonsense.

How is this not competitive with the best of the best Wizards
Who are you competing with? :smallconfused:
Play, have fun, every wizard class has plenty of flexibility; and if you are casting the control spells, boosting initiative isn't a bad idea. While you are at it, take the Alert feat. :smallbiggrin: More is better.

Gtdead

2021-08-19, 08:17 AM

Because people like to specialize and War Wizard has so much overlap that people just prefer to play other subclasses. All the boni are fairly strong, but don't really help him at being a better caster. Chronurgist has the initiative bonus but is a better caster. Abjurer has defense bonus and is a better counterspeller. Evoker is a better blaster.

Also people tend to forget that Arcane Deflection prohibits spellcasting. It looks great at first, but it can be a hinderance.

I'm not sure where War Wizard excels at other than a dip since it's such a frontloaded class. However it's a fairly good generalist and perhaps a fairly good subclass for a newcomer to play.

BloodSnake'sCha

2021-08-19, 08:25 AM

War wizard is a great dip for a gritty realism rest rules.

Works great for fighters and character that wants to stay alive.

nickl_2000

2021-08-19, 08:37 AM

War wizard is a great dip for a gritty realism rest rules.

Works great for fighters and character that wants to stay alive.

What about it makes it better for gritty realism? Not doubting, just curious honest about the reasoning.

Willie the Duck

2021-08-19, 08:41 AM

I think War Wizard also suffers from competition for conversational oxygen, so to speak. If you want a durable wizard, you probably talk about a fighter or cleric dip or a hobgoblin-with-Moderately-Armored build, and if you want a 'gish' you talk about Bladesingers.

BloodSnake'sCha

2021-08-19, 08:43 AM

What about it makes it better for gritty realism? Not doubting, just curious honest about the reasoning.

Usually you don't want to use spells with effects that have low time frame of effects unless they are used to end an encounter early (only in cases doing so saves you more resources).

Shield and Absurd Elements are two spells that can save a lot of resources but they cost a level one spell slot.

The +2 to AC or +4 to Save may be weaker than the two spells mentioned above but they only cost your reaction for a possibility of the same effect.

Zhorn

2021-08-19, 08:48 AM

I like War Magic, one of my go to characters is a Hobgoblin War Wizard.
That said, Power Surge isn't all that appealing. It's 'ok', like a less powerful Fury of the Small, but unless you have an above average presence of enemy spell casters in your games it'll not get used all that much. But if I wanted to focus on being a counterspeller I'd have gone for a Lore Bard.
And also with most games tending to wrap up shortly past lv10, that level 6 feature is going to be the thing most notable for being underutilized.

Where War Magic excels is striking first and maintaining concentration, which is really good, but being accessible in those first 2 levels really shifts the focus to being a dip class.
Still, if you get it up to lv10 and secure War Caster and Resilient (CON), concentration saves become hilarious to you. CON + Prof + 2 + Advantage, with the reaction option to add another +4... good times :smallwink:

RogueJK

2021-08-19, 09:00 AM

War Wizard is AMAZING as a dip class.

The issue with War Wizard is that once you get past level 2 is goes downhill compared to other wizard subclasses, it just isn't as exciting or as interesting. That is why it is rated low.

Agreed. A number of Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and Artificer builds benefit from a 2 level War Wizard dip.

But as a single-classed Wizard, its subclass abilities after Level 2 pale in comparison to a number of other Wizard subclass options.

And Arcane Deflection's spellcasting limitation makes it less broadly useful on a single-classed Wizard than on a multiclass character who has other good options in a turn besides casting a spell. Besides, it's honestly better for the +4 to one key save against a nasty effect or to maintain Concentration, than it is for the +2 AC to one attack; you already have access to Shield to gain +4 AC against *all* attacks until your next turn.

Mitchellnotes

2021-08-19, 09:16 AM

I think war wizard is completely fine. Especially for lower levels when the +4 to saves can be a big deal (this is even better when paired with other things that can boost saves or with gnomes who can add advantage to some of the saves as well). As others have mentioned, power surge is fiddly. It requires specific opponents, and using spells that otherwise you don't get any extra advantage to use. Recharging power surge with the level 2 feature might be too strong, but it might make it a bit more fun.

Also, there are also other subclasses that fill the same niche that war wizard does. People who are just doing more "general wizarding" can go with something like a diviner, and people looking to add to a wizards defenses can go with abjurer (or bladesinger).

Kuulvheysoon

2021-08-19, 09:39 AM

I like War Wizard as the base for a gishier wizard. Arcane Deflection pairs well with the SCAGtrips and Concentration-focused spell lists (as I find many gishes tend to be).

Havlock

2021-08-19, 11:21 AM

Agree with most everything that's been mentioned but a couple of counter points to consider...

Yes when you use Arcane Deflection you're not able to cast a leveled spell next turn, but if you're using it against a save or suck spell like hold person or banishment or something.. well, you weren't going to be casting a spell next turn anyway.

And it absolutely is a front loaded subclass that makes an excellent dip.. I don't see why that makes it less attractive as a base class though. Getting good stuff early is great either way.

But hey, to each their own though I guess. I won't belabour the point. Just wanted to give the subclass a shout out and say I think you're awesome War Wizard. You do you :)

Man_Over_Game

2021-08-19, 11:37 AM

Shield and Absurd Elements are two spells that can save a lot of resources but they cost a level one spell slot.

What else were you doing with that level 1 spell slot, though? Do you usually get attacked more than 4x a day as a Wizard?

The bonus to saves is really good, it just would be a lot better for someone who actually expects to use it often, like some kind of melee combatant. Which is a big component why you'll see it more as a dipping choice.

The main thing I find against it is the reliance on Counterspell in the later levels, as well as the fact that it just takes up your Wizard subclass. You could be warding allies, enchanting enemies, shooting a fireball at your allies while leaving them unscathed. Instead, you get better defenses and Counterspell, which isn't exactly riveting Wizard gameplay.

stoutstien

2021-08-19, 12:02 PM

BloodSnake'sCha

2021-08-19, 12:22 PM

What else were you doing with that level 1 spell slot, though? Do you usually get attacked more than 4x a day as a Wizard?

The bonus to saves is really good, it just would be a lot better for someone who actually expects to use it often, like some kind of melee combatant. Which is a big component why you'll see it more as a dipping choice.

The main thing I find against it is the reliance on Counterspell in the later levels, as well as the fact that it just takes up your Wizard subclass. You could be warding allies, enchanting enemies, shooting a fireball at your allies while leaving them unscathed. Instead, you get better defenses and Counterspell, which isn't exactly riveting Wizard gameplay.

It was for a front liner with a wizard dip.
You only get 3 level 1 spell slots.

Unoriginal

2021-08-19, 12:23 PM

What else were you doing with that level 1 spell slot, though? Do you usually get attacked more than 4x a day as a Wizard?

You don't usually get attacked more than 4 times in an adventuring day?

Man_Over_Game

2021-08-19, 12:50 PM

You don't usually get attacked more than 4 times in an adventuring day?

Not as a full-casting Wizard, nope. Then again, most of the tables I play have fewer players, so there just isn't as much room to fit in like a 10 goblin encounter or something.

PhantomSoul

2021-08-19, 01:03 PM

You don't usually get attacked more than 4 times in an adventuring day?

Well, on more than 4 separate rounds (since it's Shield), not usually! (And that ignores the extra slots from Arcane Recovery, when relevant, and that 2nd-level slots are potentially backup Shield fodder :P) I do tend to play my wizards defensively, though, and the "adventuring day" as generalised in 5e books is more or less a tall tale mothers invented to scare their kids off from leaving home to adventure.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-08-19, 01:07 PM

I think the features that really differentiate it from other Wizard subclasses come too late. The theme of the subclass, as I understand it, is to be a highly durable master of magic who is at his most deadly in an up close and personal encounter, though he'd go to great lengths to avoid this if possible.

Power Surge is a really cool feature, but in practice I've found that with the pretty severe limitation on how you gain charges the damage is fairly mediocre. Only one of these circumstances needs to change for the feature to really shine as is, either increase the ways to gain a charge of Power Surge or increase the damage while the situational ways remain as costly as they do.

Deflecting Shroud, when you get it, is actually pretty okay. 7-10 damage spread between 3 targets of your choice within 60ft is no joke, but again it has a limitation of use in that you must use your Arcane Deflection feature to trigger it. You don't really want to be attacked or become the target of a saving throw, you're a Wizard and you spend a great deal of effort to avoid those things. There's also a little bit of built in Anti-Synergy with Durable Magic here, you want to be using Durable Magic to increase your AC and Saves, which runs the risk of making it so that you can't use Arcane Deflection at all since you need to be hit or fail the save to even trigger the reaction. It's a good thing if that happens, but it also means that you aren't going to be using your 14th level feature much if you're playing a Wizard as safe as one should.

I like then War Wizard a lot but its definitely much stronger as a dip. It's higher level features are far too conditional, something I've found out first hand building out a Blood Hunter Wizard. For as much as I enjoy the character, there's no denying that he'd be a much better character if I'd only invested 2 levels into Wizard rather than the 7 I'm at now.

Eldariel

2021-08-19, 01:23 PM

Because a lot of people calling themselves optimizers think that using your Reaction to cast Shield is better, don't value initiative unless acting first is a key element of the build, and don't think the extra damage happens often enough or is big enough to be worthwhile.

If there's an optimiser out there who doesn't appreciate Initiative, they would be well-advised to review the fundamentals. Before Chronurgist, War Wizard was always listed near the top for the Int to Initiative alone - it has fairly mediocre other abilities but that ability alone is enough to make it good. Diviner, Necromancer and Illusionist were the only real competition (depending on level; Necromancer really only does stuff Tier 2 up, Illusionist Tier 3 up, etc.). Of course, then Chronurgist happened and War Wizard basically got taken down a step or two since Chronurgist is more or less just better aside from the save benefit - which is more than made up for by the vast array of incredible stuff Chronurgist gets.

RogueJK

2021-08-19, 01:24 PM

Power Surge is a really cool feature, but in practice I've found that with the pretty severe limitation on how you gain charges the damage is fairly mediocre. Only one of these circumstances needs to change for the feature to really shine as is, either increase the ways to gain a charge of Power Surge or increase the damage while the situational ways remain as costly as they do.

Deflecting Shroud, when you get it, is actually pretty okay. 7-10 damage spread between 3 targets of your choice within 60ft is no joke, but again it has a limitation of use in that you must use your Arcane Deflection feature to trigger it. You don't really want to be attacked or become the target of a saving throw, you're a Wizard and you spend a great deal of effort to avoid those things. There's also a little bit of built in Anti-Synergy with Durable Magic here, you want to be using Durable Magic to increase your AC and Saves, which runs the risk of making it so that you can't use Arcane Deflection at all since you need to be hit or fail the save to even trigger the reaction. It's a good thing if that happens, but it also means that you aren't going to be using your 14th level feature much if you're playing a Wizard as safe as one should.

Both abilities are very lackluster, both due to the amount of extra damage they generate, and what is required to trigger them. So great Level 2 features, and lackluster Level 6/14 features, makes the War Wizard not very appealing to stick with outside the first few levels.

Single digit extra damage is next to nothing at higher tiers, when enemies routinely have hundreds of HP. Especially when it requires jumping through the hoops to gain a very limited number of Power Surges, or cutting off your spellcasting the next level by using Arcane Deflection, just to add it. (And as mentioned, if you're doing it right, the hits/failed saves required to trigger Arcane Deflection should be minimal on a higher level Wizard.)

Whereas Evocation Wizards, Celestial Warlocks, Genie Warlocks, Draconic Sorcerers, et al can at least get their respective single digit added damage basically at will, with no hoop jumping required.

Honestly, Power Surge would be better and more appealing if it simply read: "Once per turn when you deal damage to a creature or object with a wizard spell, you can deal extra force damage to that target. The extra damage equals half your wizard level." This would be balanced against something like the Evocation Wizard/Draconic Sorcerer/Celestial Warlock because it only applies to one target, rather than to the damage roll as a whole (and therefore couldn't be added to each target on something like an AoE or Magic Missile). Perhaps with something like a limit of Proficiency Bonus or INT Modifier uses per Short Rest too.

Dork_Forge

2021-08-19, 02:50 PM

War Wizards are good and from memory of the videos I've seen I would take Dungeon Dudes rating with a pinch of salt.

The only real problem people tend to have with it is Power Surge, which I think gets an overly bad rap, it's at worst a damage boost once per SR which is still pretty nice.

Waazraath

2021-08-19, 03:10 PM

I think the initiative bonus is extremely strong. If I ever play a wizard though, I think I'd go with one of the subclasses that offer more fluff. Tbh, I think wizards as they are now already have precious little of that, and the subclasses are much too much alike (I'd preferd specialized wizards casting only a few schools). Given that I think subclasses bland as they are, I don't see myself picking one of the blandest for a mechanical advantage. As a dip, it is mechanically very powerful of course for many martial classes (+4 to a saving throw as a reaction hell yeah), and I rate it high (power wise).

BloodSnake'sCha

2021-08-20, 12:55 AM

Well, on more than 4 separate rounds (since it's Shield), not usually! (And that ignores the extra slots from Arcane Recovery, when relevant, and that 2nd-level slots are potentially backup Shield fodder :P) I do tend to play my wizards defensively, though, and the "adventuring day" as generalised in 5e books is more or less a tall tale mothers invented to scare their kids off from leaving home to adventure.

Don't you get targeted by enemies who wants you to stop casting annoying spells and who sees you as an easy target?

Mork

2021-08-20, 02:05 AM

For RP reason I had to mulitclass my barb/fighter into wizard, and war wizard was really strong! The initive bonus, and reaction minishield are good on almost anything.
However as a main class, for me it lacks flavor. The stuff you get is good, but they don't feel very.. war like. Maybe if proficiency in history, doubling the area of a spell, those things are things I associated with a war wizard. So for me at least it's a flavor thing why I wouldn't consider the class as a main class.

Chronos

2021-08-20, 07:15 AM

Unoriginal

2021-08-20, 10:16 AM

My biggest gripe with the class is that it's thematically a mess. The name suggests that you're good at fighting wars, the low-level abilities make you better at personally surviving, and the high-level abilities make you a better counterspeller. None of those fits together. It's all just sort of slapped together.

Personal surviving makes you better at fighting wars, and being better at countering spells is useful when your general looks at you and yell to shut down the enemy casters or else.

Willie the Duck

2021-08-20, 10:49 AM

Personal surviving makes you better at fighting wars, and being better at countering spells is useful when your general looks at you and yell to shut down the enemy casters or else.

I think that highlight's Chronos's point. Increased survivability benefits a wizard in any number of combat situations in which they might find themselves, including but not specifically a war-situation battlefield. Counterspelling would be useful in a very specific battlefield situation*, but not very applicable if the general looks at you and tells you to do any other thing.
*honestly, the best way to improve functionality for the 'shut down the enemy casters' would be to increase the range at which counterspell works, as 60' is sometimes tough even in standard D&D small-group conflicts, much less a battlefield

Regardless, 5e isn't a great system for war-sized battles, I'm not sure that 'good on the battlefield' is a great character ability to start with. Even fighters, whom one might assume at least quite possibly came from learning their craft on the battlefield (here is where class and background get blurry) have archetypes that hew more towards generically good at fighting ('Battlemaster,' which doesn't specify size of battle) or individual-combat ('Champion'). It is kind of like how the Cavalier only has a few abilities related to being mounted and how there isn't a pirate subclass specifically or the like.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-20, 11:09 AM

I like the war wizard and am playing one right now for the second time, but it sort of requires building around it.

The first time, I was already an EK before I shifted into it. I was a good melee combatant that could also throw out one good battlefield control spell and then reserve any other spell slots for clutch usage like Shield or Counterspell, and otherwise used slots to solve non-combat things.

My current situation sees me as a pure war wizard githyanki with Heavily Armored. Again, I'm a decent melee combatant. Like before, this was my answer to get the most out of arcane deflection- become a tank. Unlike before, though, I can only take so many hits before I go down. So I'm cautious about when and where I commit to melee.

Abjuration is better at pure damage mitigation by a long shot, but war wizard has a key defensive benefit that has saved me countless times- that +4 to a save. With a paladin nearby, absolutely no effects stick to me. It's excellent. And the boost to going first has helped me set up whatever big spell I need from the start. In conjunction with our gloomstalker, we tend to seize the advantage at the very beginning of each fight to put everything on our terms.

The power surge is pretty much useless though. The extra damage is pathetic considering how difficult it is to amass them. But I'm also only level 7 right now, and never got to them at all the previous time. Perhaps they feel better when you can spare L3 slots for liberal use of counterspell/dispel, and run into more casters. As it is, I just get my wet noodle +3 damage one time a day. It just never feels good, and has never actually mattered. That kind of damage is a rounding error.

Kadarai

2021-08-20, 11:39 AM

I've played a War Wizard recently for an online campaign during the quarantine, mostly as a bet with some other players and myself, thinking it was subpar, and boy did I have a blast. It completely changed they way I saw them.

I went with a full Cormyrian WarWizard idea for RP. The boost to Initiative helped alot, and although, yes, the Power Surge was tedious to keep track at points, it helped at every corner and gave that war-trained, arcane duelist feel.
After I got Durable Magic (and combined with a Staff of Power I found at late levels) both my AC and Saves were off the charts.

Arcane Deflection, can be weird, given that in limits your casting options but I found out two things:

a) Combine it with great concentration spells that take actions to activate, so you don't have to cast, like Sunbeam, or Enervation. It's awesome for reserving slots if you have to. Usually, if you play your cards right, you can change an average battle with a single slot. And. when you have a Summon Elemental or Animate Objects, or Bigby's Hand up and running, a cantrip is more than enough on your turn most of the time. And let's be realistic, yes, +2 for a single attack sounds small, but, how often does your wizard get attack if he know how to position? If it is alot, then even Shield won't do much as you get overwhelmed and maybe you should consider changing strategies entirely.

b) That thing can be used on ANY save WHENEVER and practically it only limits you in combat. About to to lose some important Concentration check? A +4 says NO! A wizard that can perform a forced marsh through a freaking blizzard and not freeze up, as his training with Purple Dragons taught him how to use magic to guard his body? Sure thing! Extreme Heat? Same things. Rocky boat makes tummy hurt? Nah... seen worse. A courtier that doesn't risk getting poisoned, cause his magic safeguards him? Yep! Combined with concentration on an Enhance Ability spell, it allowed me to navigate Social Warfare and Court crime with ease! Never die to accidentally-kissed Succubus again!

Guides can be harsh and rank subclasses mostly for the average joe and in average situations, which mostly mean combat (weird for a War Wizard, I know). If you like the concept, you can always build around your strengths and have a blast.

CMCC

2021-08-20, 12:18 PM

War Wizard is a key subclass for the Force User build - especially if you're leaning more toward the Jedi or martial force user.

War Wizard is just great.

Telwar

2021-08-20, 12:39 PM

I'm playing one now for the very, very good initiative bonus, so I can go first and try to lock down as much of the enemy as I can. At 5, I don't even have fireball, dispel magic, or counter spell (yet).

Sherlockpwns

2021-08-20, 07:47 PM

I think war wiz gets plenty of love, me included. I see it as the best gish class (or at least tied with bladesinger, and who wants to play an elf!?).

I see a lot of comments that say WarWiz 2 is a good splash, but I prefer the opposite, fighter 1 (or 2).

Yes, the level 6 ability is underwhelming, but the 2 and 10 abilities are top tier; albeit not super flashy. Most wizards either have a lackluster level 2 or 6 ability, so it's not a huge deal imo; a wizards power is mostly just being a wizard. The WarWiz advantage is, as long as you have some way to get AC, you're about as tough to hit as any frontliner (especially after you include whatever spell you are casting).

So I do see why a 2 level dip is popular, but I see the War Wizard vs. blade singer as similar to the Fighter vs. Paladin or similar fighter vs. comparisons. The war wizard is simply better for sustained fighting where rests aren't available while the bladesinger does best with 2-3 big combats per long rest.

To echo the previous post about casting spells that require an action (meaning you can still shield yourself without worrying about the cantrip issue); this also holds true for self-polymorphing, giving polymorph some extra legs other classes don't get (pun intended). You end up with a 15AC t-rex at level 10 that can shield its self up to 17AC (Or +4 save of course) for one attack. While that isn't great AC for level 10, it's enough that you'll likely see an attack or two miss as a result simply due to how many attacks it takes to eat up the 136HP and is absolutely fantastic if you use it to prevent concentration loss (given my penchant for war caster, this is rare anyway, but clutch when it happens).

And while I never take the level 14 abilities into account for personal character planning, War Wizard's is solid. Assuming there are 3 targets within 60 ft (which should be kinda common) that's 1.5x your level in damage as a reaction. No save, force damage. What more can you ask for?

Anyway, so you can certainly play the War Wiz as a standard straight wizard casting spells from the back and using the reaction to save your concentration or prevent the occasional hit when needed; but I think it clearly is most fun played as a melee caster.

Some easy builds.

Mountain Dwarf War Wiz X - No multiclassing needed; grab your nearest warhammer or battleaxe and two-hand it. Toss on some half-plate when you can. Since you don't have a shield you don't really need War Caster. Instead you can spend that ASI on boosting your stats or any number of fun feats. Int + Str builds are rare and this is one of them! Since your AC will only be mid-range, stick to the middle and play it like a tradition wizard that isn't going to have to panic if something runs up on it. Spells like Bigby's Fist are gold for you. INT is primary, STR second.

As an alternative, Hobgoblin also works well here, though that means light armor instead of medium, which may mean you're a int + dex build instead, you can even take moderate armor as a feat at 4 and then war caster at 8, taking the very long road to optimal AC/DPR. Probably not as optimal as just stat boosting. They get a +1 to INT, so that is nice and saving face is an amazing ability to tack onto your already great saves.

Warforged Fighter 1 / War Wiz X - (Or fighter 2 your choice). The WF resistances are always welcome boons; but the real magic is that they get +1 AC; combined with the fighting style and eventually your wiz 10 buff, giving you the staggering +4 AC on top of your armor, shields, or spells (for example Haste brings it to +6). A level 6 character in plate armor with a sword & shield has an AC of 24 when hasted with the reaction ability to boost yourself to 26; and that increases +2 more at 10. Bring the self-buff spells and mostly rely on SCAGtrips until an opportunity presents its self for something larger (fireball etc). Regardless, your role in combat is to cast a spell on turn 1 and try to keep concentration on it while you hold the line and chop things up, be that haste for the bonus attack and +2 ac, polymorph, or even the maligned tenser's transformation.

As noted above you can substitute Paladin 2 for Fighter 2, trading Action Surge and Second Wind for Smite, lay hands, and a spell level (plus a handful of useful spells).

Similarly, you can swap out Warforged for Goblin with interesting results. This class is bonus-action light, assuming you pick spells that aren't bonus action heavy. Therefore booming blade + goblin disengage leads to some interesting decision making for your DM. The stat mix isn't as good, but Fury of the Small is also always welcome and you'll be a lot more mobile. Just like above, you could in theory go for a dex build instead of a STR one in this case.

Regardless your stat priority for this imo is to put your attacking stat first and int second. I even have a build on paper as a wizard with 13 int; just casting spells that don't require saves (buffs, magic missile, cloud of daggers, etc).

MaxWilson

2021-08-20, 08:08 PM

To echo the previous post about casting spells that require an action (meaning you can still shield yourself without worrying about the cantrip issue); this also holds true for self-polymorphing, giving polymorph some extra legs other classes don't get (pun intended). You end up with a 15AC t-rex at level 10 that can shield its self up to 17AC (Or +4 save of course) for one attack.

+4 to concentration saves would be great for a T-Rex, but you're unlikely to get it--IME most people including most DMs interpret Polymorph as stripping you of all your class abilities including Arcane Deflection. This is in contrast to Wildshape, which says you retain class abilities. IMO the PHB text of Polymorph is a little ambiguous because "game statistics" is not a well-defined term, but at 80-90% of tables run by posters to this forum I would expect the T-Rex not to get Arcane Deflection bonuses.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-08-20, 10:22 PM

+4 to concentration saves would be great for a T-Rex, but you're unlikely to get it--IME most people including most DMs interpret Polymorph as stripping you of all your class abilities including Arcane Deflection. This is in contrast to Wildshape, which says you retain class abilities. IMO the PHB text of Polymorph is a little ambiguous because "game statistics" is not a well-defined term, but at 80-90% of tables run by posters to this forum I would expect the T-Rex not to get Arcane Deflection bonuses.

My understanding of "replacing your game statistics" is that you are essentially trading your character sheet for the monster stat block except for any listed exceptions.

I'm not even sure if Durable Magic would apply.

MaxWilson

2021-08-20, 10:43 PM

My understanding of "replacing your game statistics" is that you are essentially trading your character sheet for the monster stat block except for any listed exceptions.

I'm not even sure if Durable Magic would apply.

Most DMs will agree.

The primary argument against is the MM text, where a lot of monsters have text implying that "game statistics" is only a subset of abilities, e.g. Vampires say

'While in bat form, the vampire can't speak, its walking speed is 5 feet, and it has a flying speed of 30 feet. Its statistics, other than its size and speed, are unchanged.'

And yet we plainly see that its actions change: it explicitly loses Unarmed Strike and Multiattack, and probably loses speech, spellcasting, and the ability to grapple. In this case, "statistics" appears to refer only to the first few entries in its stat block, Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha/HP/speed/type/alignment.

Read enough MM stat blocks and it becomes clear that there is no consistent definition of the term "game statistics". But most DMs, according to my past surveying, won't let you keep class abilities when Polymorphed, including increased movement speed and presumably Arcane Deflection. Possibly Rage but even that's controversial. Most DMs do let you keep spell effects though including the Polymorph spell itself.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-21, 12:38 AM

It’s good but honestly it works better as a 2 level dip than a full class.

That restriction on no leveled spells after your reaction isn’t a big deal when you are a battle smith artificer and were not likely to cast a spell next turn anyway.

This is pretty much the perfect response to the question. The dip is fine for something like an EK who has limited spell slots, but on a full caster your main feature gets worse and worse and worse the higher you level and more slots you get. You absolutely want to be using your action to Cast A Spell consistently and doing anything that prohibits you from doing it in a subsequent round is a trap.

kazaryu

2021-08-21, 02:32 AM

I'm playing a wiz in our next campaign and decided on War Wizard.. and you wont convince me otherwise lol... but I've been doing my homework and really don't understand why the subclass is considered mediocre at best (ex: Dungeon Dudes rated it C tier).

Just a quick recap of the War Wiz:
+int to init
At will (reaction) +2AC & +4 to saves
+2 AC & all saves while concentrating
And some extra damage from time to time

How is this not competitive with the best of the best Wizards? I'll take that over a couple of portent dice every time.

Edit: I should add, I'm interested mostly in the bonuses to init and saves. Intent is to be a squishy back liner and will almost always have a concentration spell up. ther are a few things to keep in mind.

1. when you use arcane deflection you, are prevented from casting a leveled spell until the end of your next turn. which is a pretty big deal for a full caster. and on top of that it only gives you the bonus against that single effect. shield gives a bigger bonus for longer. and Absorb elements is, effectively, a guaranteed success against certain damage types (but better since it stacks with an actual success). and lvl 1 spell slots tend to get ALOT cheaper as the character levels.
2. you compare it to portents. specifically, you're comparing everything the war wizard gets to portents. which is...weird. since hte diviner gets other things. Portents is the strongest, but the other abilities are no slouch. but i'll get to those. speaking of portents you're comparing apples to oranges. you're comparing low impact, spammable abilites to high impact short use abilities. its like saying 'which is better. being able to cast fireball once per day or making 2 weapon attacks, at-will, all day.' the answer is 'it depends on context'. the reason the portents ability is so lauded is that its guaranteed. when i choose to use a portent die, i KNOW what the target is going to roll. and i can do it for basically any d20 roll made by a creature i can see. if i roll a 10+? those are almost guaranteed hits that i can give my allies (not to mention the possibility of guaranteeing a 20, allowing someone like a paladin to stack a fat smite on top of it, or the rogue get a critted SA.) particularly high rolls are also gauranteed successful saves for my allies. low rolls are guaranteed failed saves on enemies. basically, no matter what i roll on my portents, they can have huge impacts on an encounter. and its almost entirely up to me how big that impact is. its not a niche thing.

so yeah, you might prefer having that +4 to you concentration checks, but direct comparison between the 2 abilities is...basically impossible due to the vast difference in how they operate.

3. i mentioned that i'd come back to the other things diviners get. expert divination, in particular, is really good in exactly the same scenario that arcane deflection is. long, drawn out, resource management campaigns. where the war wizard gets a slightly weaker shield/AA (with a few benefits of its own) to use in combat therefore helping to save them spell slots/HP resources the diviner gets a discount on their specialized spells. spells which, if cast, are typically going to be used to save the party trouble, usually in the form of damage. be it spying on the enemies to learn there plans/weaknesses so that the party can prevail over them easier. or casting see invisibility to make invisible enemies lose one of their big advantages. to some extent third eye does much the same thing (although obviously not as well. its much much more niche). point is, the comparisons are not so cut and dry

RogueJK

2021-08-21, 01:23 PM

I think war wiz gets plenty of love, me included. I see it as the best gish class (or at least tied with bladesinger, and who wants to play an elf!?).

Tasha's removed the Elf-only requirement for Bladesingers. Any race can be a Bladesinger Wizard now.

MaxWilson

2021-08-21, 01:34 PM

This is pretty much the perfect response to the question. The dip is fine for something like an EK who has limited spell slots, but on a full caster your main feature gets worse and worse and worse the higher you level and more slots you get. You absolutely want to be using your action to Cast A Spell consistently and doing anything that prohibits you from doing it in a subsequent round is a trap.

Eh. I usually don't cast more than one spell per Deadly encounter anyway as a wizard, and if I use Arcane Deflection to avoid something (like paralyzation) that would otherwise incapacitate me, that's a pure win. Now I can Dodge or cantrip or something instead of sitting there doing nothing (or fleeing, or Meteor Swarming my fellow PCs, depending on what the hostile effect was).

So it depends.

Tasha's removed the Elf-only requirement for Bladesingers. Any race can be a Bladesinger Wizard now.

...at tables using Tasha's, yes. And assuming you want to be Bladesinger v2 instead of the original SCAG version.

Sherlockpwns

2021-08-21, 02:03 PM

Most DMs will agree.

The primary argument against is the MM text, where a lot of monsters have text implying that "game statistics" is only a subset of abilities, e.g. Vampires say

'While in bat form, the vampire can't speak, its walking speed is 5 feet, and it has a flying speed of 30 feet. Its statistics, other than its size and speed, are unchanged.'

And yet we plainly see that its actions change: it explicitly loses Unarmed Strike and Multiattack, and probably loses speech, spellcasting, and the ability to grapple. In this case, "statistics" appears to refer only to the first few entries in its stat block, Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha/HP/speed/type/alignment.

Read enough MM stat blocks and it becomes clear that there is no consistent definition of the term "game statistics". But most DMs, according to my past surveying, won't let you keep class abilities when Polymorphed, including increased movement speed and presumably Arcane Deflection. Possibly Rage but even that's controversial. Most DMs do let you keep spell effects though including the Polymorph spell itself.

I've always seen it as you lose physical abilities (racial and certain class abilities) but spell-like abilities or ongoing effects would stay. E.g. Durable Magic would stay. Arcane Deflect is a maybe, depending on if you saw it as some kind of spell or some kind of spell like ability.

As always, ask a DM I guess.

Gignere

2021-08-21, 04:49 PM

MaxWilson

2021-08-21, 05:47 PM

Yes usually you don’t but sometimes when you accidentally took a wrong turn/made a wrong decision and faced with a 5x deadly encounter boy am I glad I can spam cast all of my resources turn after turn.

If the wrong decision is "get paralyzed/stunned/dominated/etc. instead of using Arcane Deflection" you may not have the chance to spam those resources... or you may spam them onto your allies instead.

Don't get me wrong, I don't love War Wizard, but the point is that you're probably not going to use Arcane Deflection unless not using it will be worse than using it. It's very unlikely that you're going to carelessly use Arcane Deflection for a +2 AC bonus in the middle of a 5x deadly encounter.

Ultimately, not getting to cast Synaptic Status on round 2 because you used Arcane Deflection on round 1 isn't any worse than not getting to Synaptic Static on round 2 because you Misty Stepped on round 2.

It's a decent ability, especially for the save bonus.

As always, ask a DM I guess.

Yep, agreed.

Boci

2021-08-21, 06:01 PM

Ultimately, not getting to cast Synaptic Status on round 2 because you used Arcane Deflection on round 1 isn't any worse than not getting to Synaptic Static on round 2 because you Misty Stepped on round 2.

One big difference is the decision to misty step is made on your turn, with full information. Arcane Defection as a reaction may require to make a decision before you know how the rest of the turn will go, especially if there are still enemies who haven't acted yet.

MaxWilson

2021-08-21, 06:07 PM

One big difference is the decision to misty step is made on your turn, with full information. Arcane Defection as a reaction may require to make a decision before you know how the rest of the turn will go, especially if there are still enemies who haven't acted yet.

In both cases, you know at the time you give up further spellcasting what the threat is that makes you give it up. When you Misty Step you may not know for sure that the Spawn Mangler will hit you if you don't move, but you suspect. When you Arcane Deflection to avoid getting paralyzed by a Yeti, you may know you rolled a 13 and will get paralyzed otherwise and lose concentration on your Hypnotic Pattern, but you don't know for sure that you'll get auto-critted.

If anything you have more information when you Arcane Deflection (because at least you know what you rolled), but in both cases you are still guessing about the future to some extent.

Avonar

2021-08-21, 06:09 PM

I still wanna play a githyanki war wizard with armour and a greatsword one day.

Boci

2021-08-21, 06:12 PM

In both cases, you know at the time you give up further spellcasting what the threat is that makes you give it up. When you Misty Step you may not know for sure that the Spawn Mangler will hit you if you don't move, but you suspect. When you Arcane Deflection to avoid getting paralyzed by a Yeti, you may know you rolled a 13 and will get paralyzed otherwise and lose concentration on your Hypnotic Pattern, but you don't know for sure that you'll get auto-critted.

If anything you have more information when you Arcane Deflection (because at least you know what you rolled), but in both cases you are still guessing about the future to some extent.

Yes, but you can back out of casting misty step if something happens to change your descision, its on your turn. With Arcane Deflection, you commit to it before your turn, potentially before you know the layout of the fight when your turn does come up.

I'm not saying this makes Arcane Deflection useless, but it is a noteworthy difference, the need to commit to a future turn.

MaxWilson

2021-08-21, 07:38 PM

Yes, but you can back out of casting misty step if something happens to change your descision, its on your turn. With Arcane Deflection, you commit to it before your turn, potentially before you know the layout of the fight when your turn does come up.

I'm not saying this makes Arcane Deflection useless, but it is a noteworthy difference, the need to commit to a future turn.

I agree that it's a noteworthy difference and one you should keep in mind when using Arcane Deflection. The fact that Arcane Deflection can be reserved until after the die roll is known is also a noteworthy difference, this time in Arcane Deflection's favor.

Overall I'm not a huge fan of War Wizard, but it has its perks.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-21, 08:53 PM

Eh. I usually don't cast more than one spell per Deadly encounter anyway as a wizard, and if I use Arcane Deflection to avoid something (like paralyzation) that would otherwise incapacitate me, that's a pure win. Now I can Dodge or cantrip or something instead of sitting there doing nothing (or fleeing, or Meteor Swarming my fellow PCs, depending on what the hostile effect was).

So it depends.

...at tables using Tasha's, yes. And assuming you want to be Bladesinger v2 instead of the original SCAG version.

I know if I'm DMing (or the fellow DM at our table) there are often cases where all the enemies aren't seen right away or the noise attracts neighboring monsters. A lot of the time the big threat isn't seen right away. I know at my table players would be thinking long and hard about whether using Arcane Deflection was a good idea early on in a fight, particularly as it's only a single attack or save. As you say, if it's clearly to avoid a huge threat, then it's probably worth it; it just wouldn't be an ability I'd want to be counting on regularly and seems like a gamble, particularly if the DM doesn't let you know whether the bonus will make a difference.
That said, Tactical Wit and Power Surge seem solid, so maybe I'm being a little hard on the subclass as a whole.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-08-22, 12:39 AM

I just get my wet noodle +3 damage one time a day. It just never feels good, and has never actually mattered. That kind of damage is a rounding error.

If you end a Short Rest without a Power Surge, you gain one Power Surge.

So you should have 3 uses of Power Surge, on a day that features two Short Rests, and no chance to dispel/counter spells.

Arkhios

2021-08-22, 01:58 AM

Wizards are fine. War wizard is fine. Tell Dungeon Dudes to stop with their "you're doing it wrong" nonsense.

Who are you competing with? :smallconfused:

Indeed. It's usually very unlikely there is more than one wizard in the same group. So, who are you actually competing with?

MaxWilson

2021-08-22, 02:06 AM

I know if I'm DMing (or the fellow DM at our table) there are often cases where all the enemies aren't seen right away or the noise attracts neighboring monsters. A lot of the time the big threat isn't seen right away. I know at my table players would be thinking long and hard about whether using Arcane Deflection was a good idea early on in a fight, particularly as it's only a single attack or save. As you say, if it's clearly to avoid a huge threat, then it's probably worth it; it just wouldn't be an ability I'd want to be counting on regularly and seems like a gamble, particularly if the DM doesn't let you know whether the bonus will make a difference.
That said, Tactical Wit and Power Surge seem solid, so maybe I'm being a little hard on the subclass as a whole.

I thoroughly approve. Sounds like a fun table.

You can think of Arcane Deflection as a sort of Counterspell that "borrows" your spellcasting ability from next round to fuel it. As with Counterspell and Shield, if the DM is in the habit of sucker-punching you with invisible wizards, etc., spending your reaction on what turns out to be the "wrong" threat will hurt. Them's the breaks and that's what makes the game fun, especially if good recon gives you clues to the big threat in advance and "you have no idea at all what or where the real threat is" is merely the penalty for messing up your recon.

Hopefully you can use illusions and misdirection to ensure that the enemy has no idea where the big threat is either.

P.S. I'm a little surprised you rate Power Surge as solid though. Why?

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-22, 01:04 PM

I thoroughly approve. Sounds like a fun table.

You can think of Arcane Deflection as a sort of Counterspell that "borrows" your spellcasting ability from next round to fuel it. As with Counterspell and Shield, if the DM is in the habit of sucker-punching you with invisible wizards, etc., spending your reaction on what turns out to be the "wrong" threat will hurt. Them's the breaks and that's what makes the game fun, especially if good recon gives you clues to the big threat in advance and "you have no idea at all what or where the real threat is" is merely the penalty for messing up your recon.

Hopefully you can use illusions and misdirection to ensure that the enemy has no idea where the big threat is either.

P.S. I'm a little surprised you rate Power Surge as solid though. Why?

Power Surge: Well I think my comment was meant to look at PS + Tactical Wit as a whole and obviously in that case TW is carrying the load. Certainly other subclasses that get this sort of bump at will are better. On the good side it does what it's supposed to do (which I don't think AD reliably does), which is provide a bit of (force) nova damage. So, yeah, 'solid' might be overstating it, but it works.

Dork_Forge

2021-08-22, 01:29 PM

Warder

2021-08-22, 02:00 PM

Something I've always found curious, Counterspell is spoken about a lot on the forum and how important it is to have someone capable of it etc. But having an ability that makes it a more efficient spell to use is seen as a weak ability?

I can (somewhat) understand it being a bit meh to track, but realistically you just need a counter, either a box on a R20 sheet or a d6 in front of you at the table.

I have a feeling it might be the formula people take issue with, but it's the formula that keeps it in check regardless of the game table. If it was full Wizard level then it'd be a more powerful version of Fury of the Small, except you can potentially use it several times a rest, which would be too much for a L6 ability imo.

I'll reiterate what I said before - it's not that Power Surge is hard to keep track of, it is that it is so weak there's no point to it. 3 extra points of damage to one target once per short rest (okay, sure, maybe twice once in a blue moon) at level 6 is extremely lackluster. As someone said before, it's not a power boost, it's a rounding error. And that's when it at its strongest. It scales so incredibly poorly that as it gets "stronger", its actual impact becomes much, much weaker, which is saying something considering its impact was marginal to begin with.

When I played War Wizard from 1 to 11, I think I used Power Surge once, and then never again. I just felt silly making my turn even longer by declaring that I'd use it, when it didn't really do anything worth talking about. And it sucks, because the UA version was at least interesting and thematic, they just had the tuning wrong in the other direction instead.

stoutstien

2021-08-22, 02:03 PM

Something I've always found curious, Counterspell is spoken about a lot on the forum and how important it is to have someone capable of it etc. But having an ability that makes it a more efficient spell to use is seen as a weak ability?

I can (somewhat) understand it being a bit meh to track, but realistically you just need a counter, either a box on a R20 sheet or a d6 in front of you at the table.

I have a feeling it might be the formula people take issue with, but it's the formula that keeps it in check regardless of the game table. If it was full Wizard level then it'd be a more powerful version of Fury of the Small, except you can potentially use it several times a rest, which would be too much for a L6 ability imo.

I think if either the damage wasn't so pathetically small or charges were easy to generate it would be a little bit more memorable. Also it doesn't help that their key feature with arcane deflection also using a reaction. Dispell is interesting because it's possible to nail multiple spells for rapid charging but then again it only specifically works on spells and other magical effects so it has mixed results.

Lv 10 and 14 features are sound at least.

MaxWilson

2021-08-22, 05:04 PM

Power Surge: Well I think my comment was meant to look at PS + Tactical Wit as a whole and obviously in that case TW is carrying the load. Certainly other subclasses that get this sort of bump at will are better. On the good side it does what it's supposed to do (which I don't think AD reliably does), which is provide a bit of (force) nova damage. So, yeah, 'solid' might be overstating it, but it works.

Since Power Surge is its own 6th level feature, whereas Arcane Deflection and Tactical Wit both come at 6th level, I think it's fair to look at Power Surge on its own, and it's terrible, almost a non-feature.

(But the whole War Wizard package is still pretty good overall even at War Wizard 6, its weakest point.)

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-23, 04:40 PM

If you end a Short Rest without a Power Surge, you gain one Power Surge.

So you should have 3 uses of Power Surge, on a day that features two Short Rests, and no chance to dispel/counter spells.

That's very slightly better. It feels more like an admission that it's useless and that you're unlikely to get many the normal way, though.

Since Power Surge is its own 6th level feature, whereas Arcane Deflection and Tactical Wit both come at 6th level, I think it's fair to look at Power Surge on its own, and it's terrible, almost a non-feature.

(But the whole War Wizard package is still pretty good overall even at War Wizard 6, its weakest point.)

We can compare it to both Abjuration and Evocation's level 6, really, since a War Wizard is supposed to be a kind of mix of the two thematically. Abjuration just got the ability to throw their Arcane Ward at an ally as a reaction, a defining ability for them. This one's probably the most unkind comparison. Evocation got Potent Cantrip, which is a rather bad feature in its own right, but more directly comparable thanks to being a damage feature. So we'll use that one.

Pretty much all of the relevant cantrips here will be dealing 2d6 damage, for an average of 7. A wizard's Int is likely 18 by now, so their save DC is likely a 15. At these levels, we'll guess a +3 save for the monster- some will be much better, but many will be much worse since saving throw proficiency on monsters isn't particularly common, and this is giving a wide benefit to Power Surge mathwise. They will succeed on saves against this theoretical evocation wizard 40% of the time.

If you use the relevant cantrips an average of six times a day, you will get an average benefit of 8.4 damage. This is .6 damage behind what Power Surge offers from short rest replenishment, and this is being extremely conservative in favor of it. If you use more than 6 save-based cantrips in a day, the math favors Potent Cantrip, which is again not considered any good.

I don't really feel the need to buff War Wizard since that level 2 is still amazing and eventually there's Durable Magic on the horizon. Deflecting Shroud at level 14 deals up to three times the damage that Power Surge does with a far more common proc and spends no resources. And it's merely "okay, a nice little boost", according to everyone I've ever talked to that played one. So I have zero confidence in Power Surge ever feeling good.

MaxWilson

2021-08-23, 05:19 PM

If you use the relevant cantrips an average of six times a day, you will get an average benefit of 8.4 damage. This is .6 damage behind what Power Surge offers from short rest replenishment, and this is being extremely conservative in favor of it. If you use more than 6 save-based cantrips in a day, the math favors Potent Cantrip, which is again not considered any good.

Is assuming six save-based cantrips a day extremely conservative though? It feels like a mid range estimate to me. Chill Touch, Booming Blade, Fire Bolt are all pretty decent cantrips, as are Mold Earth and Minor Illusion, and then you have to consider all the rounds when you're spewing actual spells like Fireball instead of cantripping.

My own mid-range estimate of Potent Cantrip's value would be to say it gives you a d12 (Toll the Dead) of damage on approximately every cantrip failure, call it 3 times per day for a total of about 18 HP per day, total. Sculpt Spells lets you get a bit more mileage out of evocation spells, let's guesstimate 1 extra enemy hit per Fireball (3 times per day) at around 21 damage each. Call it 80 extra damage per day for the Evoker.

The War Wizard's shtick at level 6 isn't really measurable in damage, although 9ish HP of damage is the 6th level feature. The War Wizard is somewhat better at control (Web, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.) due to init bonus. It's hard to say how much better because the value of initiative depends so heavily on how the DM constructs encounters and what tactics the party uses, but it's probably not implausible to guess that over the course of a day, a +4ish bonus to init might let you hit 2 extra targets at least once with a crowd control spell. Assuming conservatively that that spell is no better than Fireball, that still makes the init bonus worth ~42 HP of damage. Is Arcane Deflection worth another 40 HP of damage? Again it's really hard to say because so much depends, but on the basis that PC HP are generally far more valuable than monster HP I'm okay guesstimating that 40 HP of damage is not more valuable than 20 HP of damage prevention, and it's easy to imagine +4 to saves preventing 20+ HP of damage, multiple times in the adventuring day. (In reality the conversion rate between PC HP and monster HP should be based on the strength of the party's at-will attacks and ACs/defenses, not a strict 2:1 ratio.) Total War Wizard value: 90+ damage equivalent, roughly, and depending.

TL;DR War Wizard 6 still looks decent to me compared to Evoker 6, based on quick-and-dirty BOTE calculation. But Power Surge contributes very little to that total.

Dork_Forge

2021-08-23, 05:23 PM

That's very slightly better. It feels more like an admission that it's useless and that you're unlikely to get many the normal way, though.

This confused me, why is it recharging on a short rest an admission that it's useless?

MaxWilson

2021-08-23, 05:33 PM

This confused me, why is it recharging on a short rest an admission that it's useless?

I assume he meant "an admission that the Dispel Magic/Counterspell charging is infrequent, therefore nigh-useless".

Though to be fair, Power Surge does scale relatively well. I imagine by Tier 4 it could easily be dealing 50-80 HP of damage to high-value targets over 10-20 rounds of combat in an adventure, as Counterspelling becomes more frequent. That's similar to Divine Smite damage on a Tier 4 Paladin who Smites with all of his 1st and 2nd level spells. Equivalently, it's half an illithilich's HP. It's still not great but it's no longer a rounding error either.

Dork_Forge

2021-08-23, 05:41 PM

I assume he meant "an admission that the Dispel Magic/Counterspell charging is infrequent, therefore nigh-useless".

Though to be fair, Power Surge does scale relatively well. I imagine by Tier 4 it could easily be dealing 50-80 HP of damage to high-value targets over 10-20 rounds of combat in an adventure, as Counterspelling becomes more frequent. That's similar to Divine Smite damage on a Tier 4 Paladin who Smites with all of his 1st and 2nd level spells. Equivalently, it's half an illithilich's HP. It's still not great but it's no longer a rounding error either.

Ahh, if that's the case then that makes no sense to me, but I can see why based on WotC terrible wording. I see it as you can do x, y number of times, but here's another way to get more uses of it, instead of an ability hinging on Counterspelling/Dispelling to be relevant at all.

I see the amount of damage as a nice little spike, it can either be your 'nova' or you can throw it on cantrips to make up for the fact that you used Arcane Deflection last time.

Warder

2021-08-23, 05:43 PM

I assume he meant "an admission that the Dispel Magic/Counterspell charging is infrequent, therefore nigh-useless".

Though to be fair, Power Surge does scale relatively well. I imagine by Tier 4 it could easily be dealing 50-80 HP of damage to high-value targets over 10-20 rounds of combat in an adventure, as Counterspelling becomes more frequent. That's similar to Divine Smite damage on a Tier 4 Paladin who Smites with all of his 1st and 2nd level spells. Equivalently, it's half an illithilich's HP. It's still not great but it's no longer a rounding error either.

I think it scales extremely poorly, actually, as I've said before in this thread. I get the angle you're coming from, but I think in practice that it's pointless to look at damage over longer stretches of time. In actual gameplay, all that matters is the number of actions needed to reduce an enemy's hit points to 0, and Power Surge is bad at that when you get it, and even worse when you level up and enemies get stronger. Once in a blue moon, those 3-5 points of extra damage will be the difference between an enemy dying and an ally needing another turn to kill it, but that's going to be very, very rare indeed.

Chronos

2021-08-23, 06:12 PM

Quoth Warder:

Once in a blue moon, those 3-5 points of extra damage will be the difference between an enemy dying and an ally needing another turn to kill it, but that's going to be very, very rare indeed.
That's not the only case you need to look at. It'll also sometimes be the difference between an enemy needing one more ally-turn and it needing two more ally-turns, or between 5 more turns and 6, or whatever. And it's actually really easy to calculate how often that'll happen: You just take the damage due to Power Surge, and divide it by the total damage the party deals.

MaxWilson

2021-08-23, 08:15 PM

I think it scales extremely poorly, actually, as I've said before in this thread. I get the angle you're coming from, but I think in practice that it's pointless to look at damage over longer stretches of time. In actual gameplay, all that matters is the number of actions needed to reduce an enemy's hit points to 0, and Power Surge is bad at that when you get it, and even worse when you level up and enemies get stronger. Once in a blue moon, those 3-5 points of extra damage will be the difference between an enemy dying and an ally needing another turn to kill it, but that's going to be very, very rare indeed.

Bolded what I feel is a key sentence. Enemies don't necessarily get stronger at a rate faster than Arcane Deflection scales.

At 6th level, you may be facing enemies with 40-100 HP or so, and doing roughly 9 HP of damage per day. When you're Tier 4 and dealing 50-80 HP per day, you're not necessarily dealing with enemies who have 300-800 HP. You are probably still fighting plenty of bad guys who have 120-300 HP: liches, beholders, illithiliches, Astral Dreadnoughts, Favored Consorts/Matron Mothers, Death Knights, Tier 4 NPCs.

Power Surge just happens to initially come online at the worst possible point, when enemies have already gotten the bulk of their HP spike around CR 4-6. By CR 20, Power Surge will have made up some of the ground.

Concrete example: at level 6, Power Surge vs. a CR 5 Vampire Spawn does 3 HP, 3.7% of its 82 HP total. At level 20, Power Surge vs. a Death Knight does 10 HP, 5.5% of its 180 HP total, and then if you use your Signature Spell: Counterspell to Counterspell its Hold Person attempt, you double that to 11%. (At 6th level Counterspell was too expensive to be common but now it's cheap.) You're doing 3x as much relative damage as at 6th level.

That's why I say Power Surge scales well.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-08-23, 08:20 PM

In actual gameplay, all that matters is the number of actions needed to reduce an enemy's hit points to 0, and Power Surge is bad at that when you get it, and even worse when you level up and enemies get stronger.

Power Surge requires no action, so whilst the damage is paltry, it meets my definition of "Free Damage".

Barbarians really do not fare well under your 'No considering Damage Over Time' restrictions. Rage Damage, when considered on the basis of single event/attack is adding less than Power Surge is at Tier 4, under your criteria of judgement.

I ran some Githyanki War Mage simulations back when MToF came out...Medium Armor + Arcane Deflection with the default array didn't seem sufficient to allow reliable melee engagement at lower tiers.

Add in a shield, however, and the subclass has legs in T1.

I know people on this board, in general, ignore High Level play, as being too rare to actively consider, but a 20th Level War Mage with Dispel Magic and Counterspell as their Signature Spells is recharging their ability to cast those spells every Short Rest as well as Power Surge.

Factor in a Staff of the Magi, and the item's contribution of additional Dispel Magic spells and "Free Damage" abounds.

A Goblin War Mage is adding a not insubstantial amount of extra damage.

Edit: LoL ...simultaneous post with Max😁...

Warder

2021-08-23, 08:59 PM

Barbarians really do not fare well under your 'No considering Damage Over Time' restrictions. Rage Damage, when considered on the basis of single event/attack is adding less than Power Surge is at Tier 4, under your criteria of judgement.

Eh, I just didn't type out my entire criteria. Adding even single points of damage is fine when it comes to stuff you can do every single time you're attacking. If it's your job to hit things with a sword, making the sword more effective is good, thus Rage is okay.

It's not that sustained damage is bad - it's just that you can't tally it all together over the course of five fights and say that you killed an extra wyvern, because chances are pretty good your power surge did nothing at all.

I think it's the same thing as the old healing word thing that seems to pop up pretty often. Someone's low on HP, a bard casts healing word on them, because every little bit helps, right? Well, no, if that healing isn't enough to let them survive two hits instead of one, it's a wasted spell slot.

In the case of Power Surge, it's worse because it's a wasted class feature which wizards have pretty few of as is. And it's sad, because subclass features in particular are meant to really define your character, and Power Surge falls short in every single aspect.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-08-23, 09:47 PM

It's not that sustained damage is bad - it's just that you can't tally it all together over the course of five fights and say that you killed an extra wyvern, because chances are pretty good your power surge did nothing at all.

So while I agree completely that the damage from Power Surge is never going to provide the same emotional thrill that a Divine Smite usage that has a high damage total will...damage is still damage..and does, in the aggregate, help defeat foes.

3 points of damage is roughly the same damage one can expect from making an off hand Short Sword attack without the benefits of Feats nor Fighting Styles.

It may not be 'baller' level damage, but even that small amount of additional damage can shave a round off a combat.

A 'stock' Commoner NPC has 4 HP, a goblin has 7 HP, and a Noble has 9 HP...in a game where the world doesn't 'level up' with the players, even 3 extra HP of damage once per Short Rest might be useful.

Deflecting Shroud can nigh kill a Royal Family, in a certain style of game.

DracoKnight

2021-08-23, 09:54 PM

I think that people who rate the War Wizard low, haven’t looked at… some of the shenanigans they can get up to at higher levels.

If you look at Tenser’s Transformation, it’s normally a subpar spell, outside of Illusionists, and War Wizards.

Why is it good for War Wizards?

Your reaction +2 AC or +4 to saves? Well it doesn’t matter that you can’t cast leveled spells after, because you can’t cast spells anyways. You can attack twice and when you hit, you hit like a truck.

Your Power Surge feature? Stock up on those before popping Tenser’s, and now they’re like a Smite when you attack. Add them onto critical hits, and important attacks.

You’re concentrating on a spell, so you get +2 to your AC, so you’re in better shape when you wade into melee, and you get +2 to saves, good for your concentration saves.

When you pair this spell and this subclass together, they sing.

Is it sucky that it takes 11 levels to finally get a spell that makes the subclass work? Yes. Yes, absolutely it is. But playing one and using that spell, it feels like they were designed to go together.

MaxWilson

2021-08-23, 09:57 PM

3 points of damage is roughly the same damage one can expect from making an off hand Short Sword attack without the benefits of Feats nor Fighting Styles.

Nitpick: it's about the same damage you would expect from an offhand hit, which is almost twice as great as an attack.

To put it differently, the War Wizard's Power Surge at level 6 provides extra damage similar to a Champion's Improved Critical, with the added advantage that you can choose whom it will be applied to and when. (No chance of wasting it on the Ogre or Zombies instead of an enemy wizard.)

Yes it's garbage, especially at first, but it's garbage better than Improved Critical and eventually in some ways better than Divine Smite, and there are plenty of people who like both of those. There are worse ribbons in the game.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-24, 02:48 AM

I assume he meant "an admission that the Dispel Magic/Counterspell charging is infrequent, therefore nigh-useless".
Yep, that's the one. I love those two spells and have done some great things with them, but you just don't have the slots to use them until much later. As I've mentioned, I only have experience with war wizards up to level 7 so far, so I can only comment on how bad it feels tossing a measly 3 damage at things with an extremely expensive price tag to get any extra.

Ahh, if that's the case then that makes no sense to me, but I can see why based on WotC terrible wording. I see it as you can do x, y number of times, but here's another way to get more uses of it, instead of an ability hinging on Counterspelling/Dispelling to be relevant at all.

I see the amount of damage as a nice little spike, it can either be your 'nova' or you can throw it on cantrips to make up for the fact that you used Arcane Deflection last time.
That's what it is, sure. It's not literally useless. It's just so frustratingly incremental and limited in usage when you get it. Perhaps this wouldn't be so disappointing if I was level 9 and could counter/dispel 7 times if I wanted. Or if I was in late Tier 3/Tier 4 where you can expect enemy teams to pack spellcasting and can work as a dedicated anti-mage. But I just got the XP to level to 8 at the end of last session, and adding that 3 damage in the beholder fight that got me that XP caused an actual eyeroll from my paladin.

And I can't blame him. It felt pitiful. It always has, so far.

(I still love the subclass, can't stress that enough. And I'm looking forward to Durable Magic and Deflecting Shroud)

Kane0

2021-08-24, 03:28 AM

You know what I like most about the War Wizard? It doesn't try to shoehorn you into blasting. It lets you choose the means by which you wish to wage war.

Kadarai

2021-08-24, 04:08 AM

I always saw Power Surge as a nice little trade-off. +3 damage at level is essentially 1d6, at 10 it's 2d6 and so on. It's a trade to make some other spell do a bit more damage as you used a spellslot on counterspell. Especialy at level 6, with 3 lvl3 slots, which some casters will keep for Counter Spelling -or even rarer- Dispelling, it's nice to be able to boost a lwoer spell, even by a single die.

I was also curious about its interaction with Magic Missile. The Sage Advice that it's essentially one damage roll that you then multiply by the number of missiles opens up some weird interpretations

Kane0

2021-08-24, 05:24 AM

I was also curious about its interaction with Magic Missile. The Sage Advice that it's essentially one damage roll that you then multiply by the number of missiles opens up some weird interpretations

Aye, and i've never been at a table where someone would rather roll one d4 rather than three (or more). That would feel like rolling one d6 for sneak attack and multiplying based on what level rogue you are. Player inclination is usually to roll ALL THE DICE.

Willie the Duck

2021-08-24, 08:45 AM

RogueJK

2021-08-24, 09:26 AM

I was also curious about its interaction with Magic Missile. The Sage Advice that it's essentially one damage roll that you then multiply by the number of missiles opens up some weird interpretations

The Sage Advice is a moot point with Power Surge and Magic Missile. Power Surge doesn't add to the damage roll, it just deals additional force damage to one enemy damaged by the spell. (Much like Goblin's Fury of the Small; it's just a flat portion of additional damage to one damaged enemy.) So it wouldn't be multiplied with Magic Missile, even when following the Sage Advice.

Compare to stuff like Evoker's Empowered Evocation, which specifically adds to the damage roll. That would get multiplied on Magic Missile damage, when following the Sage Advice.

KorvinStarmast

2021-08-24, 09:30 AM

You know what I like most about the War Wizard? It doesn't try to shoehorn you into blasting. It lets you choose the means by which you wish to wage war. Yes, that's another plus although any wizard build can be flexible and not be 'blast centric' depending on how the players set them up.

heavyfuel

2021-08-24, 11:17 AM

Because a lot of people calling themselves optimizers [...] don't value initiative unless acting first is a key element of the build

Ehhh, literally everyone I've seen trying to optimize Wizards value initiative very very highly.

The only folk whom I've seen saying otherwise are people who want to dip Cleric for Heavy Armor, although more and more often I'm seeing people go for medium armor because 14 Dex is a lower investment than 15 Str and because 14 Dex also helps - you guessed it - your Initiative.

MaxWilson

2021-08-24, 12:14 PM

Ehhh, literally everyone I've seen trying to optimize Wizards value initiative very very highly.

I don't. The best time to cast a spell is before the encounter starts. Relying on winning initiative is relying on luck and reacting to what's in front of you; the best way to wizard is to be more proactive.

Don't get me wrong, having good initiative bonus is nice because sometimes you will be caught off guard, but the variance on opposed d20 rolls is high and the impact of bonuses is therefore relatively low. If the DM is using PHB RAW initiative I can see how you might appreciate the opportunity to manipulate your place in the initiative order, so you have a higher chance to avoid pathological orders (e.g. if you want to go soon but don't want to go before the bard has cast Bane to penalize saves) but that's not what most posters seem concerned with. Otherwise pre-combat prep is generally more important than initiative rolls.

Cast Invisibility V or Seeming on the party BEFORE combat so that the party can start in an advantageous position and/or encourage the enemy to make tactical mistakes, like assuming Fireball Formation around a hard target like the one visible PC (party tank or illusion of one). This is more reliable than trying to win initiative so you can Synaptic Static a cluster of enemies "before they can leave Fireball Formation", because what if they weren't in Fireball Formation in the first place?

LordShade

2021-08-24, 02:32 PM

Does any Cleric 1 dip offer particular synergies for a War Wizard X build?

MaxWilson

2021-08-24, 02:51 PM

Does any Cleric 1 dip offer particular synergies for a War Wizard X build?

Well, if you're playing with Tasha's, Peace Cleric of course stacks the saving throw bonuses even higher. Failing that, Forge Cleric at least gives you more AC.

But the best counterintuitive War Wizard combo I know is Shepherd Druid X/War Wizard 2. (Take War Wizard at level 7-8.) You get access to Shield, better saves against all the things that can disrupt your Conjure spells (failed concentration saves, incapacitating conditions, etc.), some extra mobility via Expeditious Retreat, longer-ranged attack cantrips (120' Fire Bolt vs. 30' Produce Flame) to keep you safer. You don't lose spell slot progression, and you don't care that much about Arcane Deflection preventing spellcasting for a round because you mostly only use it when your big concentration spell is already cast (which means you're already planning on cantripping anyway). The Int 13 MADness is the primary downside, but at least you get an initiative boost out if it, and I dislike roleplaying low Int anyway. I would totally play an Int 14 Wis 14 Hobgoblin Shepherd Druid X/War Wizard 2.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-24, 03:08 PM

Well, if you're playing with Tasha's, Peace Cleric of course stacks the saving throw bonuses even higher. Failing that, Forge Cleric at least gives you more AC.

But the best counterintuitive War Wizard combo I know is Shepherd Druid X/War Wizard 2. (Take War Wizard at level 7-8.) You get access to Shield, better saves against all the things that can disrupt your Conjure spells (failed concentration saves, incapacitating conditions, etc.), some extra mobility via Expeditious Retreat, longer-ranged attack cantrips (120' Fire Bolt vs. 30' Produce Flame) to keep you safer. You don't lose spell slot progression, and you don't care that much about Arcane Deflection preventing spellcasting for a round because you mostly only use it when your big concentration spell is already cast (which means you're already planning on cantripping anyway). The Int 13 MADness is the primary downside, but at least you get an initiative boost out if it, and I dislike roleplaying low Int anyway. I would totally play an Int 14 Wis 14 Hobgoblin Shepherd Druid X/War Wizard 2.

Interesting idea. Having DMed a couple of Moon Druids and one Shepherd, I'd tend to think this would work better on a Moon Druid. Reason being is that the Shepherd tended to continue casting spells after the initial summons, while the Moon Druids couldn't as round 2 was generally bonus action Wild Shape and attack. So the downside of Arcane Deflection wouldn't come up as often.

LordShade

2021-08-24, 03:12 PM

MaxWilson

2021-08-24, 03:34 PM

Hmm, that's really interesting. I have been looking for a good mechanical reason to multiclass druid and wizard (Simic green/blue magic user) and this might be it. Leaving RP aside, do you think there's an argument for adding Death Cleric 1 for cantrip spam on this build?

Your summons are doing the bulk of the damage already, but I guess if you want to double your Toll the Dead cantrip damage and you don't mind slowing your access to Conjure Fey, yeah, I can see that. Personally I wouldn't but it's justifiable, if your DM allows it. (Death Cleric is supposed to be an NPC-only class.)

Interesting idea. Having DMed a couple of Moon Druids and one Shepherd, I'd tend to think this would work better on a Moon Druid. Reason being is that the Shepherd tended to continue casting spells after the initial summons, while the Moon Druids couldn't as round 2 was generally bonus action Wild Shape and attack. So the downside of Arcane Deflection wouldn't come up as often.

Maybe it's irrational but I find multiclassing actively painful on a Moon Druid chassis because it slows down your wildshape progression and costs you your capstone (even if the capstone never actually happens in play before the campaign dies, it means you can no longer even imagine the PC someday getting there). On a Moon Druid I would just take Resilient Con and Warcaster and call it good, without investing any levels in wizard.

I'd love to hear more about what spells you found Shepherd Druids casting. My experience is a little bit different--their concentration is so valuable that Dodging or Hiding is sometimes their best option (can still toss down a Bear Spirit of course), and even if not, chucking a Fire Bolt or two from 100' away is safer than a Thorn Whip or Produce Flame from 30'. Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Creatures are so good that burning spell slots on Blight/Erupting Earth/etc. isn't very attractive outside of dire emergencies.

Did you see a lot of Unicorn Spirit + healing spells, or was it more damage evocations?

LordShade

2021-08-24, 03:43 PM

How do you rate this Shepherd X/WW 2 combo against your Lyrandar Warlock elemental spammer?

Menji

2021-08-24, 03:53 PM

As others have said, they're a great dip. My Yuan-Ti Pal6/Hex1/WarWiz4 is a beast.

...but it's damned good in general, as my Aereni High Elf Pal2/Hex1/WarWiz9 is...more of a beast. :smallsmile:

Obv it lends itself to gishes.

stoutstien

2021-08-24, 03:54 PM

I could see a war wizard/star druid combo being a fun and effective match up. Could have nigh unbreakable concentration or a nice bonus action attack that isn't a spell so arcane deflection away.

MaxWilson

2021-08-24, 03:57 PM

How do you rate this Shepherd X/WW 2 combo against your Lyrandar Warlock elemental spammer?

Apples and oranges. Lyrandar is about ubiquity, getting to throw elementals out freely. It's well suited for RP-heavy campaigns, Combat As War, and other situations where you don't know exactly where or when you're going to wind up fighting something. It's also somewhat slow to come fully online, so you need to be ready to enjoy the pew-pew warlock style while you're at it. Even at level 8 when (minor) elementals come online, DPR will come primarily (50-70%) from the Warlock while the elemental(s) supplies (supply) recon and HP, plus 30-50% of DPR.

Shepherd Druids in general are in some ways the opposite: very strong for only a few hours a day, best when you can be confident that those hours will be the hours when fighting happens. The War Wizard 2 dip is just a way of protecting that Shepherd Druid investment, but the core of the playstyle is just regular Shepherd Druid, which is sort of the opposite of the pew-pew warlock style and more like a necromancer: you have to be prepared to be 100% happy to have your minions outshine your personal DPR by roughly an order of magnitude to the point where your personal participation in combat is basically optional.

I'd compare the Lyrandar Padlock to an upgraded Fighter: if you like Fighters you'll like Lyrandar Padlocks. Conversely, if you like detonating enemies via remote control as a Shepherd Druid or Necromancer, you'll like Shepherd X/War Wizard 2. It's just a safer Shepherd.

LordShade

2021-08-24, 04:55 PM

Off-topic, but is your core build the padlock or a straight Lyrandar Warlock?

I see a straight Warlock 20 (Tome or Chain) as a very playable class, and Mark of Storms simply adds one very good trick to an already decent toolbox.

To make this somewhat on-topic... how useful is War Wizard for other summoning-based casters? Particularly those that risk losing control of a summon, like a Mark of Storms warlock. The core element here is getting a +4 to saves whenever you want it, and if you're focused on summoning, you don't care as much about using a leveled spell every round. This logic also applies to a pure war wizard that's simply leaning into the Tasha's summons.

I am also looking at Circle of Stars druid. Never studied it carefully before, but this seems super good as a 2-level dip too... at a minimum, you are getting a pile of low-level slots that you can just spam whenever you feel like. With Warcaster, Resilient, WW 2 and Stars 2, you have +PB to Con saves, advantage on concentration, minimum roll of 10 on concentration, and +4 as a reaction. Is there an application for concentration checks this strong?

Ogun

2021-08-24, 05:16 PM

Is war wizard a good chassis for a Necromancer?

MaxWilson

2021-08-24, 05:37 PM

(A) Off-topic, but is your core build the padlock or a straight Lyrandar Warlock?

(B) I see a straight Warlock 20 (Tome or Chain) as a very playable class, and Mark of Storms simply adds one very good trick to an already decent toolbox.

To make this somewhat on-topic... how useful is War Wizard for other summoning-based casters? Particularly those that risk losing control of a summon, like a Mark of Storms warlock. The core element here is getting a +4 to saves whenever you want it, and if you're focused on summoning, you don't care as much about using a leveled spell every round. This logic also applies to a pure war wizard that's simply leaning into the Tasha's summons.

I am also looking at Circle of Stars druid. Never studied it carefully before, but this seems super good as a 2-level dip too... at a minimum, you are getting a pile of low-level slots that you can just spam whenever you feel like. With Warcaster, Resilient, WW 2 and Stars 2, you have +PB to Con saves, advantage on concentration, minimum roll of 10 on concentration, and +4 as a reaction. Is there an application for concentration checks this strong?

(A) I don't understand the question. My personal preference is for good AC, so if I were doing single-classed warlock it would be either a Moderately Armored Daolock or Celestialock (Lyrandar half-elf, Dex 14+, take Moderately Armored at Warlock 4), or a Lyrandar Hexblade. I like Paladin 1/Celestial Warlock 1-9 slightly better because I like the RP of Devotion paladins, because feats are precious and because I like the idea of being the guy who eventually supplies Aura of Protection + charm immunity and Aura of Vitality, but the full Warlock route does unlock True Polymorph eventually, so I could go either way based on the rest of the party composition. They're both good, and I don't really have a "primary build".

(B) I sort of agree, sort of disagree. Warlock 20 is fine, but I would struggle to answer the question of "why am I not playing a wizard 20 instead?" Lyrandar supplies an answer, "Because continuous, short-sighted spam of disposable elementals and demons feels different than proactively husbanding Planar Binding elementals for the long term. I'm playing a warlock so I can be short-sighted and relaxed instead of paranoid and wizardy."

Different PCs for different moods.

Is war wizard a good chassis for a Necromancer?

No, the opportunity cost is too high. Go Necromancer instead.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-24, 06:58 PM

Your summons are doing the bulk of the damage already, but I guess if you want to double your Toll the Dead cantrip damage and you don't mind slowing your access to Conjure Fey, yeah, I can see that. Personally I wouldn't but it's justifiable, if your DM allows it. (Death Cleric is supposed to be an NPC-only class.)

Maybe it's irrational but I find multiclassing actively painful on a Moon Druid chassis because it slows down your wildshape progression and costs you your capstone (even if the capstone never actually happens in play before the campaign dies, it means you can no longer even imagine the PC someday getting there). On a Moon Druid I would just take Resilient Con and Warcaster and call it good, without investing any levels in wizard.

I'd love to hear more about what spells you found Shepherd Druids casting. My experience is a little bit different--their concentration is so valuable that Dodging or Hiding is sometimes their best option (can still toss down a Bear Spirit of course), and even if not, chucking a Fire Bolt or two from 100' away is safer than a Thorn Whip or Produce Flame from 30'. Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Creatures are so good that burning spell slots on Blight/Erupting Earth/etc. isn't very attractive outside of dire emergencies.

Did you see a lot of Unicorn Spirit + healing spells, or was it more damage evocations?

Certainly not every fight, but included a mix of spells including some healing. It was a 5 character party and he was one of the 2 healers. I guess on my end you can tell I have a bit of a hang up about the War Wizard limiting spell casting options, so that's why the Moon Druid seems a better fit to me. I do see your point regarding progression, though every multiclass is going to have to weigh that.

RogueJK

2021-08-25, 11:44 AM

Is war wizard a good chassis for a Necromancer?

Nope. Like any Wizard, it's able to cast Necromancy spells, but unlike the Necromancy subclass, War Wizard gets you no Necromancy-specific benefits.

About the only good thing about a Necromancer War Wizard is that, if you're focused primarily on Necromancy Summoning spells like Animate Dead/Create Undead/Summon Undead/etc., the negative impact of Arcane Deflection's spellcasting limitations won't hurt you as much as, say, an AoE blaster War Wizard, since you'll often have solid options for things to do with your turn that don't involve casting a leveled spell (namely Cantrip + BA Commanding Undead).

SyFi2001

2021-08-25, 08:58 PM

DracoKnight

2021-08-25, 09:04 PM

Oh. Huh. Neat. I'd never actually noticed this before. I'm currently playing a 10th level War Wizard. I know what I'll be picking up on level up.

But quick question: why is Tenser's Transformation good on an Illusionist??

It's good on an Illusionist because of their 14th level feature where they can make part of their illusion real. So you Disguise Self as yourself, but wearing Plate Mail. Then you wait until you cast Tenser's Transformation, and on the same round you cast the spell you use your bonus action to make the Plate Mail real. So you just donned Plate Mail as a bonus action, and you're proficient with it because of the spell.

The problem with the spell giving proficiency with heavy armor in general is that heavy armor takes 10 minutes to don, half that if you have other creatures helping you. So it either takes the full duration, or you only get half the juice of this spell. Which is bad for a 6th level spell slot. And you can't cast it while wearing heavy armor unless you were already proficient with heavy armor, which...if you were...this wouldn't be an issue. But it is for 99.99% of wizards.

PhantomSoul

2021-08-25, 09:06 PM

But quick question: why is Tenser's Transformation good on an Illusionist??

Using Major Image (DM permitting for how moving the Illusion works with your Action Economy) to make Illusory Armor, then turning that Armor real when you have Proficiency through the Spell.

-- Edit for new post --

Disguise Self is nice for it (but I often see the recommendation for Major Image because you could have Expended the Spell Slot on a previous day, with Upcasting).

MaxWilson

2021-08-25, 09:08 PM

Oh. Huh. Neat. I'd never actually noticed this before. I'm currently playing a 10th level War Wizard. I know what I'll be picking up on level up.

But quick question: why is Tenser's Transformation good on an Illusionist??

Presumably so you can make use of the armor proficiency by turning illusionary heavy armor real for a minute, after activating Tenser's.

BTW I think people make too much of the Tenser's prohibition on spellcasting while you're concentrating on it. You already can't cast concentration spells without losing concentration, so the only thing special about Tenser's is that you also can't cast Fireball/Counterspell/etc. without losing Tenser's, but since you can end concentration at any time... if you need to abort Tenser's in order to Counterspell, do so.

But I think it's still a weak spell compared to Mass Suggestion.

The problem with the spell giving proficiency with heavy armor in general is that heavy armor takes 10 minutes to don, half that if you have other creatures helping you.

It's even worse than that. Donning heavy armor takes 10 minutes, full stop. Having help reduces doffing time from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes but has no effect on donning time.

Getting Into and Out of Armor
The time it takes to don or doff armor depends on the armor’s category.

Don: This is the time it takes to put on armor. You benefit from the armor’s AC only if you take the full time to don the suit of armor.

Doff: This is the time it takes to take off armor. If you have help, reduce this time by half.

DracoKnight

2021-08-25, 09:16 PM

Dork_Forge

2021-08-25, 09:45 PM

The whole Tenser's thing confused me so I did a quick google: Mike Mearls said on Twitter that the prof was included for completeness, there was no need to not give it, however the spell was not balanced with the assumption you'd actually be able to use armor.

I think that in looking for completeness "It doesn't make sense that a spell that makes you a warrior wouldn't give you such a fundamental thing" they didn't consider that people would assume it was meant to be useful, because why would we assume that in a spell right?

Also came across people to say use Glyphs of Warding which is amusing but impractical.

A weird situation where a War Wizard with an Armorer dip might happen sometime, in someone's game... right?

MaxWilson

2021-08-25, 09:59 PM

Also came across people to say use Glyphs of Warding which is amusing but impractical.

Also illegal. If you could cast Tenser's on someone other than yourself, there wouldn't be awkwardness in the first place.

The only good way (that I know of) to make use of Tenser's armor proficiency without relying on quick-don magic armor or Illusory Reality is to cast Tenser's after possessing a body with Magic Jar but before switching into another body, when the second body is wearing armor. (Technically you could also have someone armor your own unconscious body, and then end the spell.) Since Magic Jar can easily last for days this isn't that hard to imagine pulling off in an actual adventure. You could maybe even talk a fellow PC into hosting you for the initial Tenser's, and then just leave it running while your familiar flies your gem ahead to take control of an enemy body and surprise attack an enemy general or something.

Dork_Forge

2021-08-25, 10:08 PM

Also illegal. If you could cast Tenser's on someone other than yourself, there wouldn't be awkwardness in the first place.

The only good way (that I know of) to make use of Tenser's armor proficiency without relying on quick-don magic armor is to cast Tenser's after possessing a body with Magic Jar but before switching into another body, when the second body is wearing armor. (Technically you could also have someone armor your own unconscious body, and then end the spell.)

It's illegal? That seems like a ruling thing, spells that target Self still target a single creature, they just specify the target. It feels like it would have wording akin to 'other than Self' in it if that was the case.

MaxWilson

2021-08-25, 10:15 PM

It's illegal? That seems like a ruling thing, spells that target Self still target a single creature, they just specify the target. It feels like it would have wording akin to 'other than Self' in it if that was the case.

Huh. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone express that viewpoint. I don't agree that different wording would be needed but I guess it's a DM call then.

If the DM allows self-only spells to be implanted in Glyph of Warding, then what happens when you step on a Glyph of Spirit Guardians?

DracoKnight

2021-08-25, 11:21 PM

Huh. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone express that viewpoint. I don't agree that different wording would be needed but I guess it's a DM call then.

If the DM allows self-only spells to be implanted in Glyph of Warding, then what happens when you step on a Glyph of Spirit Guardians?

I would rule that the person who triggers the Glyph counts as the caster.

That’s how I’ve always ruled it at my table.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-26, 01:01 AM

DracoKnight

2021-08-26, 01:22 AM

Dork_Forge

2021-08-26, 01:46 AM

Huh. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone express that viewpoint. I don't agree that different wording would be needed but I guess it's a DM call then.

If the DM allows self-only spells to be implanted in Glyph of Warding, then what happens when you step on a Glyph of Spirit Guardians?

I don't think that wording is needed, it's just what feels like would be there in my opinion based on other spells.

I'm not sure I'm grasping the implications of the question, my answer is just that the person benefits from being the caster of Spirit Guardians

MaxWilson

2021-08-26, 11:22 AM

This thread got me thinking if you were to play a fighter (Not EK) and dip WW for 2-3 levels what would be your best options for combat spells? The usual defensive suspects like Shield and Absorb Elements both compete with Arcane Deflection and burn slots fast, so really aren't what you're here for. Tasha's Caustic Brew seems like the go-to 1st level option to cast then run in for a damage upgrade. Fog Cloud (and Darkness if you stay for 3 levels) work with blindfighting. Misty Step is obviously going to be a favorite for utility/ mobility.
Anything else jump out as good options?

You still want Shield and Absorb Elements, because they are better than Arcane Deflection at what they do. Use them in emergencies. They eat slots fast but you've got four slots (plus one from short rest), and you've got Arcane Deflection for non-emergencies. You also want Expeditious Retreat and maybe Protection From Evil, and if you go Wizard 3 you can pick up Blur and Magic Weapon.

CMCC

2021-08-26, 11:47 AM

Shadow Blade combines stupidly well with Extra Attack.

and elven accuracy and hexblade's curse

carkl3000

2021-08-27, 06:32 AM

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-08-27, 11:29 AM

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I'm playing an Arcana Cleric 1/Spores Druid X currently. Wearing medium armor and shield, wielding Shillelagh and blade cantrips. I'm playing as a tank, putting up a concentration spell and fighting in melee range.

I had originally come to the conclusion that any further multiclassing wouldn't be super helpful because my subclass abilities rely on having as big a pool of THP from symbiotic entity as I can get. HOWEVER, I recently got the ok from my DM to use firebringeraxel's version of the subclass, the one nerd immersion discussed on his channel a while back. It's nice because it makes most of the subclass's features independent from the THP granted by SE.

One side effect is that it makes multiclassing more viable. I'm going to druid 6 first to get animate dead and fungal infestation, but I'm starting to wonder if a 2 level dip in war wizard after that would be good for some extra tankiness on this build. Then I'm thinking about 4 levels of WW for the ASI, 2nd level wizard spells and to have additional spells prepared. I'm never going to have more than +2 Int so I'm not planning to do any blasting with wizard spells, but if there are 4 or 5 low level wizard spells that don't depend much on Int, that would be useful throughout the game, I think it could be a good addition?

Any thoughts?

Edit: I'm thinking find familiar, shield, mirror image, see invisibility, feather fall, floating disk, unseen servant, grease?

I'm thinking regardless of your DM ruling it's pretty tough to justify a 4 level investment in WW. You are going to be 5 druid levels behind in terms of what higher level spells are available to you, mostly to get a few more 2nd level options. That's 2-3 spell levels as you get into tier 3, which would really reduce the power of your best spells.
The 2 level dip seems like a good trade off if that's what you want out of your character; pretty much in line with why WW is so popular for this. My suggestion earlier in the thread of a 3 level WW dip was for a non caster class, and I think that's key; the extra level for non-casters won't be missed as much at most levels.

carkl3000

2021-08-27, 07:05 PM

I'm thinking regardless of your DM ruling it's pretty tough to justify a 4 level investment in WW. You are going to be 5 druid levels behind in terms of what higher level spells are available to you, mostly to get a few more 2nd level options. That's 2-3 spell levels as you get into tier 3, which would really reduce the power of your best spells.
The 2 level dip seems like a good trade off if that's what you want out of your character; pretty much in line with why WW is so popular for this. My suggestion earlier in the thread of a 3 level WW dip was for a non caster class, and I think that's key; the extra level for non-casters won't be missed as much at most levels.

I definitely understand what you're saying. Mirror image and misty step seem like good spells to pick up and I would hate to go three levels when I could go four and not lose an ASI... I'm not even that worried about delaying 4th and 5th level druid spells. I think summons and undead minions will keep me happy for a while, but it'd be sad to never get Foresight...

Merudo

2021-08-28, 12:00 AM

but I've been doing my homework and really don't understand why the subclass is considered mediocre at best (ex: Dungeon Dudes rated it C tier).

Dungeon Dudes are pretty much a joke. They are not serious about optimization or min-maxing.

Treantmonk is not perfect, but he is so much better than the dudes. He gave War Wizard (https://youtu.be/fSFuGYVIhGU?t=4970) a Sky Blue rating, his highest rating.

MaxWilson

2021-08-28, 12:12 AM

Dungeon Dudes are pretty much a joke. They are not serious about optimization or min-maxing.

Treantmonk is not perfect, but he is so much better than the dudes. He gave War Wizard (https://youtu.be/fSFuGYVIhGU?t=4970) a Sky Blue rating, his highest rating.

I can't take any analysis seriously when it commits fundamental factual errors, like claiming Arcane Deflection is better than Shield because "one way that this is different than Shield is, with Shield you don't know whether they hit you or not."

Uh, yeah, you kind of do. Shield is a reaction "which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the Magic Missile spell".

A sky-blue rating based on erroneous facts is not credible.

Edit: oh wow. Treantmonk (1) advocates actively optimizing your spell list to take advantage of Power Surge, and also (2) says that Deflecting Shroud (as opposed to Power Surge) is the worst ability because it does so little damage. This despite the fact that it takes three Power Surges to even do as much damage as one full Deflecting Shroud. Sorry Treantmonk, Power Surge is definitely worse.

Xihirli

2021-08-28, 02:00 AM

Kuulvheysoon

2021-08-28, 09:03 AM

War Wizard is an absolutely fantastic dip of 2 levels, but it encounters some issues as a full caster while trying to use it's base subclass ability of Arcane Deflection. It's not bad in the full context of 5E; it's still a Wizard.

Treantmonk hit his peak with 3.5E, and I honestly believe this. He isn't as adept with 5E as he thinks he is, and this is one reason why.

MaxWilson

2021-08-28, 09:19 AM

(1) Eh... kinda? Not really. He goes over how the Power Surge isn't a big boost and only makes blasts a little bit better. There's also a difference between getting a tiny, somewhat situational damage boost at level 6 and a tiny, situational damage boost at level 14.

Yes really. He makes Power Surge purple ("decent") and Arcane Deflection red ("useless").

Both of them are free damage boosts, but Arcane Deflection is bigger and more frequent.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-28, 11:59 AM

It's even worse than that. Donning heavy armor takes 10 minutes, full stop. Having help reduces doffing time from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes but has no effect on donning time.

Getting Into and Out of Armor
The time it takes to don or doff armor depends on the armor’s category.

Don: This is the time it takes to put on armor. You benefit from the armor’s AC only if you take the full time to don the suit of armor.

Doff: This is the time it takes to take off armor. If you have help, reduce this time by half.
Ha, the more unrealistic part is assuming you can actually equip full plate yourself without help in less than an hour, involving quite a lot of cursing.

You could totally doff in under a minute with a knife and a total disregard for your gear. Not recommended, but maybe a D&D character with a simulationist DM could find a reason to do that?

Yes really. He makes Power Surge purple ("decent") and Arcane Deflection red ("useless").

Both of them are free damage boosts, but Arcane Deflection is bigger and more frequent.

Oh yeah, I haven't gotten it yet but I'm really looking forward to that deflection boost. With how often I use it for the save, it's a great chaff clearer, and a more reliable boost than the surges. Plus, off turn damage added to my off turn defenses!

But maybe the surges will feel a bit better by then too. We'll see.

Quietus

2021-08-30, 09:08 AM

Ha, the more unrealistic part is assuming you can actually equip full plate yourself without help in less than an hour, involving quite a lot of cursing.

You could totally doff in under a minute with a knife and a total disregard for your gear. Not recommended, but maybe a D&D character with a simulationist DM could find a reason to do that?

I suppose that a minute to cut your straps and a minute to cast Mending, is faster than five minutes to doff?

MaxWilson

2021-08-30, 12:11 PM

I suppose that a minute to cut your straps and a minute to cast Mending, is faster than five minutes to doff?

Mending only fixes "single break or tear in an object you touch". I suspect you're going to have to cut more than one strap to doff your armor.

Boci

2021-08-30, 12:19 PM

Mending only fixes "single break or tear in an object you touch". I suspect you're going to have to cut more than one strap to doff your armor.

You can recast it. It adds to the time, but the trick still works if you need the armour off in a hurry, and won't need it back on until later, where you will have more time.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-30, 12:40 PM

You can recast it. It adds to the time, but the trick still works if you need the armour off in a hurry, and won't need it back on until later, where you will have more time.

Honestly, that would probably help with donning too. The straps under the arms in particular are a headache. Six seconds to mend sliced leather sounds like a deal to me.

MaxWilson

2021-08-30, 12:49 PM

Honestly, that would probably help with donning too. The straps under the arms in particular are a headache. Six seconds to mend sliced leather sounds like a deal to me.

Mending takes sixty seconds, not six. It's probably faster to just strap them on normally.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-30, 01:02 PM

Mending takes sixty seconds, not six. It's probably faster to just strap them on normally.

Ah, nevermind then.

...

Still might be better for a few of them. At least if you're trying to do it alone. One time I spent about fifteen minutes struggling to strap the bracers on just because I had the *brilliant* idea of wearing long gloves under them.

Long story short, now I don't wear bracers over gloves unless someone can help me not look like an idiot.

Boci

2021-08-30, 01:47 PM

Ah, nevermind then.

...

Still might be better for a few of them. At least if you're trying to do it alone. One time I spent about fifteen minutes struggling to strap the bracers on just because I had the *brilliant* idea of wearing long gloves under them.

Long story short, now I don't wear bracers over gloves unless someone can help me not look like an idiot.

Admittedly this is a fun D&D-thing that makes sense given how readily magic is available.

"Hey, the straps on your armour don;t have any buckles, they're just solid leather...and cut in two,"

"Yeah, that's how I get it on and off, then I just use the mending on them,"

Granted that probably not what an adventurer would do with their fullplate, but someone who regularly wears it for ceremonial purpose, or fights under controlled conditions in tournaments or gladiator-style matches could conceivable do that.

Waterdeep Merch

2021-08-30, 02:27 PM

Admittedly this is a fun D&D-thing that makes sense given how readily magic is available.

"Hey, the straps on your armour don;t have any buckles, they're just solid leather...and cut in two,"

"Yeah, that's how I get it on and off, then I just use the mending on them,"

Granted that probably not what an adventurer would do with their fullplate, but someone who regularly wears it for ceremonial purpose, or fights under controlled conditions in tournaments or gladiator-style matches could conceivable do that.

It would be stronger overall, but require very good sizing. I can imagine some rich noble from a magical kingdom with a team of minor mages helping them into their armor like that. That's a pretty cool sequence.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-08-31, 01:23 AM

Yes really. He makes Power Surge purple ("decent") and Arcane Deflection red ("useless").

Both of them are free damage boosts, but Arcane Deflection is bigger and more frequent.

True, but Power Surge has no line of sight, nor a distance requirement, unlike Arcane Deflection.

I had an NPC War Mage General, (in a game based in part on the Civil War of the Roman Republic), combine the Dream spell with a use of Power Surge to bedevil the PCs, the nights before a major engagement between their armies.

It was a cheap trick, and the PCs hated that NPC for using it.

Power Surge could also apply to a Geas Spell.

Small Spooky Damage Action from an extreme Distance, may not be earth shattering but it is amusing, at times...a 9th Level War Mage can essentially add an extra d6 Damage to the Dream spell.

Damage isn't the point of the Dream spell, but some extra added to the spell helps.

I don't watch Treanmonk reviews, so by no way am I agreeing with him.
It's just the wording for Power Surge is so broad in regards to the damage, that some niche fun can be had..🃏

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 02:17 AM

True, but Power Surge has no line of sight, nor a distance requirement, unlike Arcane Deflection.

I had an NPC War Mage General, (in a game based in part on the Civil War of the Roman Republic), combine the Dream spell with a use of Power Surge to bedevil the PCs, the nights before a major engagement between their armies.

It was a cheap trick, and the PCs hated that NPC for using it.

Power Surge could also apply to a Geas Spell.

Small Spooky Damage Action from an extreme Distance, may not be earth shattering but it is amusing, at times...a 9th Level War Mage can essentially add an extra d6 Damage to the Dream spell.

Damage isn't the point of the Dream spell, but some extra added to the spell helps.

I don't watch Treanmonk reviews, so by no way am I agreeing with him.
It's just the wording for Power Surge is so broad in regards to the damage, that some niche fun can be had..🃏

Heh. That's a pretty cool trick. Thanks for sharing.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 11:55 AM

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 12:24 PM

IMO. War Wizard is amazing as a controller.

He often gets to go first or at least early in initiative due to his int bonus initiative. This lets him use a strong control spell while enemies are in closer to optimal positions and before many of them have acted - allowing potentially more to be targeted and turning the encounter significantly easier before it's even started.

When people say things like this I always wonder what kind of encounters they have and why the enemy are always conveniently in the worst-possible tactical formation ("optimal positions") at the start of the encounter, without the PCs having to do anything to set that up.

The way I'm used to things happening, a bunch of orcs or frost giants or whatever aren't likely to be in Fireball Formation until you give them a target that makes them assume Fireball Formation. You know the aphorism, "Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake"? On round 1, he hasn't had the chance to make very many mistakes yet, because they players haven't had the chance to misdirect him yet.

Unless the players had a chance to set up a situation pre-combat.

For example, if the players become aware of 8 Frost Giants and 3 Mammoths in the vicinity, and they want to kill them, one way to approach the situation would be to create an illusion of an apparently-sleeping Adult Red Dragon on the ground, on the hopes that the Frost Giants (who hate dragons) will spot it and attempt to sneak up and surround it and all Ready actions to hit it simultaneously before it can wake up and fly away, on the theory that there is no kill like overkill. In this case the enemies are in a convenient Fireball formation around the dragon at the start of combat per se.

But in this case initiative still doesn't matter much because the PCs knew the Frost Giants were incoming and can have readied actions too.

Here's a convenient diagram of what one of my fights might look like on round 1. Every square is 10'. There's also four fast monsters (basically Quicklings) that are offscreen, won't arrive onscreen until round 2.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pr0sCgqN/Scene5.png

As you can see, the players are in "optimal position" for a Hypnotic Pattern/Fireball/whatever but the monsters aren't yet.

Is this radically different from round 1 of what your (collective "your", not just Frogreaver's) DMs' fights typically look like?

Boci

2021-08-31, 12:37 PM

As you can see, the players are in "optimal position" for a Hypnotic Pattern/Fireball/whatever but the monsters aren't yet.

Is this radically different from round 1 of what your (collective "your", not just Frogreaver's) DMs' fights typically look like?

Most groups I DM tend to make effort to space themselves out for that reason exactly. Its dependent on terrain and how much they expect a fight, but yeah, I can say its probably rare for them to be that clumped up at the start, in my games at least.

Gtdead

2021-08-31, 02:10 PM

I always assume that high initiative increases the chance to catch the enemy in Fireball position because this has been my experience. Especially with humanoid enemies, they may patrol but eventually they will meet and chat, some others will sit around the campfire, so if you can either get surprise or get the first move, more often than not you will be able to land a fat Fireball or some other aoe spell. It's even more common in urban settings or dungeons due to the confined space. Of course a DM can position the enemies tactically to avoid this or use "wave" tactics, but most (IME) don't do that.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 02:21 PM

Most groups I DM tend to make effort to space themselves out for that reason exactly. Its dependent on terrain and how much they expect a fight, but yeah, I can say its probably rare for them to be that clumped up at the start, in my games at least.

Yeah, the PC spacing in this fight was unusual. It was the players' first time with me as a DM so maybe that affected things. Starting off in Fireball Formation and mostly staying there for two rounds made the fight about 3x as deadly as I was expecting it to be.

I always assume that high initiative increases the chance to catch the enemy in Fireball position because this has been my experience. Especially with humanoid enemies, they may patrol but eventually they will meet and chat, some others will sit around the campfire, so if you can either get surprise or get the first move, more often than not you will be able to land a fat Fireball or some other aoe spell. It's even more common in urban settings or dungeons due to the confined space. Of course a DM can position the enemies tactically to avoid this or use "wave" tactics, but most (IME) don't do that.

That's the thing that puzzles me though--if a group of warriors isn't on alert, having some of them chatting here and others sitting around a campfire there and some others doing something else in the middle distance seems absolutely normal to me, and is why you have to tempt them into Fireball Formation in the first place. It's also why it's bizarre to sometimes see PCs who apparently spend their whole lives within 30' of each other. :-)

In dungeons it's a slightly different question, more about "why isn't there total cover in between them" than about distance per se. (I guess many DMs just run monsters in adjoining rooms and corridors as a completely separate encounter/separate combat but I don't--I treat monsters close enough to interact hear shouts of battle/etc. as part of the same encounter, although they may not be onscreen yet.)

stoutstien

2021-08-31, 03:04 PM

ff7hero

2021-08-31, 03:12 PM

Yeah, the PC spacing in this fight was unusual. It was the players' first time with me as a DM so maybe that affected things. Starting off in Fireball Formation and mostly staying there for two rounds made the fight about 3x as deadly as I was expecting it to be.

I'd call it an overabundance of optimism more than anything. I can't speak for anyone else, but I was just banking on Team Oni not looking too hard for us while there was all that tempting gold in the pyramid. Korel's prior relationship with Hawk ended up biting us on that gamble.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 03:13 PM

War wizard does shine with the new summons in Tasha's. Even at two encounters per spell slot that's a pretty nasty way handle them

But since the Tasha's summons are not stronger and in many ways are weaker than the old summons (Animate Dead, Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Elemental, and in a way Polymorph), doesn't that apply just as well to non-Tasha's games?

Except of course that Animate Dead doesn't require concentration in the first place.

ff7hero

2021-08-31, 03:18 PM

But since the Tasha's summons are not stronger and in many ways are weaker than the old summons (Animate Dead, Conjure Minor Elementals, Conjure Elemental, and in a way Polymorph), doesn't that apply just as well to non-Tasha's games?

Except of course that Animate Dead doesn't require concentration in the first place.

While Animate Dead and the Conjure line are usually stronger than the Summons, there's something to be said for the speed of play and simplicity of the Summons. Summoning one buff beast induces many fewer groans than Conjuring 16 Raptors, even if the raptors are objectively stronger.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 03:22 PM

While Animate Dead and the Conjure line are usually stronger than the Summons, there's something to be said for the speed of play and simplicity of the Summons. Summoning one buff beast induces many fewer groans than Conjuring 16 Raptors, even if the raptors are objectively stronger.

Yes, but War Wizards can't summon Raptors anyway. :)

They can summon demons and elementals though, and can Polymorph a spoony bard into a mini-Kong. (Only Huge unfortunately--I guess a real King Kong would be more like CR 40.)

I'd call it an overabundance of optimism more than anything. I can't speak for anyone else, but I was just banking on Team Oni not looking too hard for us while there was all that tempting gold in the pyramid. Korel's prior relationship with Hawk ended up biting us on that gamble.

Hmmm. But once Korel started scanning the cavern with Detect Magic, you could have left the cave. In fact, IIRC your PC Asha was actually the one who fired first and started the combat, but he didn't leave the cave while doing so. Was that just because he wanted to stay in the Magic Circle? I think you guys set that up to be safe against possession after the Onis semi-died, but it doesn't protect against spell bombardment and there weren't any semi-dead Onis yet.

In any case I doubt Fireball Formation will be something that the PCs will adopt frequently, going forward. It was an unusual circumstance.

stoutstien

2021-08-31, 03:34 PM

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 03:43 PM

The Tasha summons have more angles for effects other than damage and summon undead is a pretty nice option for gaining a bonus action ranged attack. Sure animate dead can make skeleton archers but you can have both!

You're not wrong. I guess Tasha's summons must be particularly nice against monsters resistant or immune to nonmagical weapons--it's kind of a pain to penetrate weapon resistance with PHB spells. (Conjure Fire Elemental works but is quite limited compared to Summon Aberration/etc.)

stoutstien

2021-08-31, 03:49 PM

You're not wrong. I guess Tasha's summons must be particularly nice against monsters resistant or immune to nonmagical weapons--it's kind of a pain to penetrate weapon resistance with PHB spells. (Conjure Fire Elemental works but is quite limited compared to Summon Aberration/etc.)

Aye. Bulk wins by shear force until you need a scalpel.

They also work well for taking advantage of certain combos like The putrid option from summon undead and a mercy monk.

Havlock

2021-08-31, 04:23 PM

Is this radically different from round 1 of what your (collective "your", not just Frogreaver's) DMs' fights typically look like?

To be honest, my DM tends to place the initial encounter distance close enough that more often than not, round 1 movement will close the distance and get right into the hacking and slashing... so that initiative bonus is gold.

Gtdead

2021-08-31, 04:53 PM

That's the thing that puzzles me though--if a group of warriors isn't on alert, having some of them chatting here and others sitting around a campfire there and some others doing something else in the middle distance seems absolutely normal to me, and is why you have to tempt them into Fireball Formation in the first place. It's also why it's bizarre to sometimes see PCs who apparently spend their whole lives within 30' of each other. :-)

Ah, I see what you are getting at. I guess it depends on DM style, because IME the idling NPCs generally stand close enough to each other to be able to affect more than 50% of them, which I'm mostly happy to do, and if I have the initiative/surprise then they are forced to stay in place and take it. If I had a way to lure and affect all of them it would be perfect, but as a strategy I'd rather get the surprise round than increase the risk of getting discovered or try a tactic that has some risk to fail (like luring), unless it's something straightforward like creating a sound with minor illusion and fireballing all the guards that went to investigate. In my groups the DMs (mostly old friends from school) tend to use more confined spaces, which is both a blessing and a curse. It's bad for me because I am a Combat as War minded player and more often than not (for me at least) I'm "incompatible" with the DM's style, but the upside is that I tend to find a lot of opportunities for choke points and enemies standing close to each other.

I can count on my fingers the times where the combat space wasn't confined into whatever the grid paper's dimensions were. For example we may have a fight in the great outdoors, but if the paper is 50x50 squares, then I may as well fight in a 50x50 room. (Also I've played games where the DM literally forces the group to fight when the players want to escape instead.)

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 06:12 PM

Ah, I see what you are getting at. I guess it depends on DM style, because IME the idling NPCs generally stand close enough to each other to be able to affect more than 50% of them, which I'm mostly happy to do, and if I have the initiative/surprise then they are forced to stay in place and take it. If I had a way to lure and affect all of them it would be perfect, but as a strategy I'd rather get the surprise round than increase the risk of getting discovered or try a tactic that has some risk to fail (like luring), unless it's something straightforward like creating a sound with minor illusion and fireballing all the guards that went to investigate. In my groups the DMs (mostly old friends from school) tend to use more confined spaces, which is both a blessing and a curse. It's bad for me because I am a Combat as War minded player and more often than not (for me at least) I'm "incompatible" with the DM's style, but the upside is that I tend to find a lot of opportunities for choke points and enemies standing close to each other.

I can count on my fingers the times where the combat space wasn't confined into whatever the grid paper's dimensions were. For example we may have a fight in the great outdoors, but if the paper is 50x50 squares, then I may as well fight in a 50x50 room. (Also I've played games where the DM literally forces the group to fight when the players want to escape instead.)

Yeah, that's kind of what I suspected actually. On the one hand it's too bad the DM is artificially restricting even outdoor options. On the other hand, as you say, you can just adapt to the Combat As Sport style and exploit the limitations of dungeons qua dungeons. I guess that brings us back to War Wizard: in a setting like that, where--as Havlock says--monsters often start within melee whacking range of the party, initiative bonuses are terrific.

Personally I'd feel pretty nervous about relying on such patterns unless it was part of the social contract a.k.a. session zero, "in order to keep things fun, all encounters will take place in areas no bigger than 200' x 200' and will typically begin with enemies within 30' of PCs, and leaving the 200' x 200' area is not allowed." If it was explicitly part of the social contract then I guess maybe I could relax and just enjoy Gold Box-style fights for what they are: combat as entertainment.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 06:16 PM

When people say things like this I always wonder what kind of encounters they have and why the enemy are always conveniently in the worst-possible tactical formation ("optimal positions") at the start of the encounter, without the PCs having to do anything to set that up.

The optimal position is the one that will allow you to get the most enemies in an AOE in the actual battle you are in. In my experience, once the PC's start fighting the enemies then AOE's tend to become less effective, as enemies will engage the PC's and when enemies and PC's are engaged it's harder to hit just the enemies and we tend to avoid friendly fire. Or if they are ranged enemies they can spread out even further once it's their turns. An evokers wizard's ability helps here, but it's only useful for blasty spells - not control (and my statement was they make great control wizards).

The way I'm used to things happening, a bunch of orcs or frost giants or whatever aren't likely to be in Fireball Formation until you give them a target that makes them assume Fireball Formation. You know the aphorism, "Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake"? On round 1, he hasn't had the chance to make very many mistakes yet, because they players haven't had the chance to misdirect him yet.

Unless the players had a chance to set up a situation pre-combat.

For example, if the players become aware of 8 Frost Giants and 3 Mammoths in the vicinity, and they want to kill them, one way to approach the situation would be to create an illusion of an apparently-sleeping Adult Red Dragon on the ground, on the hopes that the Frost Giants (who hate dragons) will spot it and attempt to sneak up and surround it and all Ready actions to hit it simultaneously before it can wake up and fly away, on the theory that there is no kill like overkill. In this case the enemies are in a convenient Fireball formation around the dragon at the start of combat per se.

But in this case initiative still doesn't matter much because the PCs knew the Frost Giants were incoming and can have readied actions too.

In my games they don't get readied actions outside combat, so no they couldn't.

But more importantly this feels to me like that would be less likely to produce a fireball formation not more - I mean, why the heck would the Frost Giants Gang up in Dragon Breath position to take out a dragon?

The overall premise I can go with though. Sometimes you can do something that gets enemies into a worse position than they would otherwise be. I agree with that - just not with the example chosen to illustrate it.

Here's a convenient diagram of what one of my fights might look like on round 1. Every square is 10'. There's also four fast monsters (basically Quicklings) that are offscreen, won't arrive onscreen until round 2.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pr0sCgqN/Scene5.png

As you can see, the players are in "optimal position" for a Hypnotic Pattern/Fireball/whatever but the monsters aren't yet.

Is this radically different from round 1 of what your (collective "your", not just Frogreaver's) DMs' fights typically look like?

Yes, that diagram is very different. I don't run my world such that every group of enemies are afraid there's a wizard going to fireball them around every corner.

In general my melee enemies would be in a formation where they could easily support each other if other melee enemies attacked them or if they needed to charge some ranged enemies. That would mean for the core group that at most they would be their movement away from at least 1 if not 2 allies and maybe not even that far away. (Great for support against melee attackers) Still a spread out formation but not overly so. Ranged allies would tend to be more toward the center of the formation not the rear (as they can help whatever direction the formation is attacked from). Fast allies like quicklings would serve to spread out on the front, back and sides of the formation to give them advanced warning. They may venture a little further away from the party than the core group on the assumption that they can easily fall back if danger is spotted - essentially functioning as scouts/advanced warning systems. Melee and single target ranged attacks would by far be the norm the enemies are used to dealing with and so that's what they would typically be prepared for unless they had some reason to expect large AOE - not that the formation I'm descrbing is particularly bad against AOE, it's just not as strong as your formation above is against AOE. The formation you created is particularly strong against AOE but weaker against melee and single target ranged enemies.

heavyfuel

2021-08-31, 06:23 PM

I don't. The best time to cast a spell is before the encounter starts. Relying on winning initiative is relying on luck and reacting to what's in front of you; the best way to wizard is to be more proactive.

Don't get me wrong, having good initiative bonus is nice because sometimes you will be caught off guard, but the variance on opposed d20 rolls is high and the impact of bonuses is therefore relatively low. If the DM is using PHB RAW initiative I can see how you might appreciate the opportunity to manipulate your place in the initiative order, so you have a higher chance to avoid pathological orders (e.g. if you want to go soon but don't want to go before the bard has cast Bane to penalize saves) but that's not what most posters seem concerned with. Otherwise pre-combat prep is generally more important than initiative rolls.

Cast Invisibility V or Seeming on the party BEFORE combat so that the party can start in an advantageous position and/or encourage the enemy to make tactical mistakes, like assuming Fireball Formation around a hard target like the one visible PC (party tank or illusion of one). This is more reliable than trying to win initiative so you can Synaptic Static a cluster of enemies "before they can leave Fireball Formation", because what if they weren't in Fireball Formation in the first place?

That's a great strategy, but know what's a better one? Casting a spell before the combat AND at the first round before other people.

Since you're not always going to have element of surprise at your side, having decent initiative is a great way to ensure you get to do at least some thing before the enemy spreads out completely.

Casting a spell beforehand and during the first round isn't something you always want to do because sometimes conserving spell slots is more important, but it is something you always want the option of doing.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 06:36 PM

*snip* But more importantly this feels to me like that would be less likely to produce a fireball formation not more - I mean, why the heck would the Frost Giants Gang up in Dragon Breath position to take out a dragon? *snip*

Interesting, thanks for the response. RE: your specific question here, the answer is twofold: (1) because giants have almost twice as much melee Multiattack firepower as ranged firepower (rocks), and getting advantage against a prone target instead of disadvantage probably makes it approximately triple damage instead of just double: Edit after doing the math: actually it's more like 5x, because it's 400.28 damage with melee weapons and advantage vs. 76.73 with rocks and advantage; (2) if the fight starts with eight readied Frost Giant Multiattacks, the dragon's breath weapon is irrelevant. It may already be dead before it gets a chance to act: their average damage with advantage is 400.28, and it only has 256 HP. Even if they roll low and it survives long enough to get an action, they have more than enough HP to survive the breath weapon and then still kill it even with their puny 76.73 rock damage.

Ergo, closing to melee maximizes their chance of getting a kill, whereas if they throw rocks from a distance, it is likely to be able to flee successfully. Dead dragon is better than live dragon. Hence, sleeping dragon is a good illusion in this case.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 06:44 PM

Interesting, thanks for the response. RE: your specific question here, the answer is twofold: (1) because giants have almost twice as much melee Multiattack firepower as ranged firepower (rocks), and getting advantage against a prone target instead of disadvantage probably makes it approximately triple damage instead of just double: Edit after doing the math: actually it's more like 5x, because it's 400.28 damage with melee weapons and advantage vs. 76.73 with rocks and advantage; (2) if the fight starts with eight readied Frost Giant Multiattacks, the dragon's breath weapon is irrelevant. It may already be dead before it gets a chance to act: their average damage with advantage is 400.28, and it only has 256 HP. Even if they roll low and it survives long enough to get an action, they have more than enough HP to survive the breath weapon and then still kill it even with their puny 76.73 rock damage.

Ergo, closing to melee maximizes their chance of getting a kill, whereas if they throw rocks from a distance, it is likely to be able to flee successfully. Dead dragon is better than live dragon. Hence, sleeping dragon is a good illusion in this case.

There's no guarantee the dragon won't wake up and breath attack them before they get to melee range. Which is the problem with a bunch of giants trying to sneak into melee. Heck, why do Frost Giants think they can be sneaky anyways?

Also in regards to this scenario - it's relying on readied actions outside combat again. It really feels like that ruling is guiding alot of your tactical assessments - probably explaining alot of the difference of opinions we have.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 07:18 PM

There's no guarantee the dragon won't wake up and breath attack them before they get to melee range. Which is the problem with a bunch of giants trying to sneak into melee. (A) Heck, why do Frost Giants think they can be sneaky anyways?

Also in regards to this scenario - (B) it's relying on readied actions outside combat again. It really feels like that ruling is guiding alot of your tactical assessments - probably explaining alot of the difference of opinions we have.

(A) There's no guarantee that they actually will, but the wizard casting the spell certainly is hoping they will. As a DM I'd probably roll oracle dice to determine if it works, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

(B) Maybe so. I certainly would expect a reasonable DM to allow the equivalent of readied actions in this case, however they do the accounting. If eight Frost Giants can coordinate to hit a sleeping target together during combat, I expect the DM to do whatever work is necessary to make something similar work out of combat. Anything else would break suspension of disbelief. Edit: That is, assuming that you're playing 5E as a roleplaying game in the first place, I guess, instead of a beer-and-pretzels dice game where suspension of disbelief isn't even relevant.

Valmark

2021-08-31, 07:30 PM

(B) Maybe so. I certainly would expect a reasonable DM to allow the equivalent of readied actions in this case, however they do the accounting. If eight Frost Giants can coordinate to hit a sleeping target together during combat, I expect the DM to do whatever work is necessary to make something similar work out of combat. Anything else would break suspension of disbelief. Edit: That is, assuming that you're playing 5E as a roleplaying game in the first place, I guess, instead of a beer-and-pretzels dice game where suspension of disbelief isn't even relevant.

Admittedly, even without readied actions outside combat there would still presumably be at least a suprise round.

Boci

2021-08-31, 07:32 PM

Admittedly, even without readied actions outside combat there would still presumably be at least a suprise round.

I think that's pretty much it. Its not "at least" a surprise round, it just is a surprise round. If you're hiding amid the trees with a loaded crossbow waiting for the messenger to appear on the road, you don't get a readied action to attack with, you get to surprise them (assuming they didn't notice you).

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 07:35 PM

Admittedly, even without readied actions outside combat there would still presumably be at least a suprise round.

Ah yes, I would consider that sufficiently equivalent.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 08:00 PM

Admittedly, even without readied actions outside combat there would still presumably be at least a suprise round.

Unless they work the Dragon up before they initiated combat. Then no surprise round.

Boci

2021-08-31, 08:05 PM

Unless they work the Dragon up before they initiated combat. Then no surprise round.

Yeah, but the giants might be banking on, well if this doesn't work they're kinda ****ed anyway. Dragon takes the air and starts roasting them faster than they can knock it down with rocks.

Its also just about rewarding player ingenuity. Sure the plan wouldn't always works, but it could, so that's probably the more fun option to go with.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 08:32 PM

Yeah, but the giants might be banking on, well if this doesn't work they're kinda ****ed anyway. Dragon takes the air and starts roasting them faster than they can knock it down with rocks.

Its also just about rewarding player ingenuity. Sure the plan wouldn't always works, but it could, so that's probably the more fun option to go with.

Giants vs Dragons involve no players...

Boci

2021-08-31, 08:52 PM

Giants vs Dragons involve no players...

Wasn't the this scenario a player using an illusion of a dragon to lure the giants into a tighter formation?

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 09:17 PM

Wasn't the this scenario a player using an illusion of a dragon to lure the giants into a tighter formation?

Yep, which involves mentally roleplaying the giants to determine how they'd likely react. (Then seeing if the DM agrees...)

Boci

2021-08-31, 09:19 PM

Yep, which involves mentally roleplaying the giants to determine how they'd likely react. (Then seeing if the DM agrees...)

In which case giants vs. dragons do involves players, this time at least.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 09:21 PM

Wasn't the this scenario a player using an illusion of a dragon to lure the giants into a tighter formation?

Yes, but the Giants think it's a real dragon and are treating it as such.

Boci

2021-08-31, 09:24 PM

Yes, but the Giants think it's a real dragon and are treating it as such.

And there's no obvious answer one way or another. The giants could try to sneak up on a dragon they think is real and finish it with their axes, or they could try using rocks and spreading out in anticipation of its breath weapon.

Since neither one is immediately more obvious than the other, its not a bad idea for the DM to consider that the player wanted to achieve with this pretty neat plan, and lean towards that outcome.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 09:28 PM

And there's no obvious answer one way or another. The giants could try to sneak up on a dragon they think is real and finish it with their axes, or they could try using rocks and spreading out in anticipation of its breath weapon.

Since neither one is immediately more obvious than the other, its not a bad idea for the DM to consider that the player wanted to achieve with this pretty neat plan, and lean towards that outcome.

One is more obvious to me and that's what really matters here :smalltongue:

Boci

2021-08-31, 09:32 PM

One is more obvious to me and that's what really matters here :smalltongue:

I think you might want to reconsider how "obvious" that is. Giants are like humans, subjects to differences in opinions (presumable), and Max laid out a pretty good argument for why they might prefer melee. Sure, frost giants don't know their own stats, but they likely understand they are more dangerous up close than from far away.

So whilst you may find one options more obvious, others don't, which means different frostgiants could presumably have different opinions on the matter to.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 09:51 PM

I think you might want to reconsider how "obvious" that is. Giants are like humans, subjects to differences in opinions (presumable), and Max laid out a pretty good argument for why they might prefer melee. Sure, frost giants don't know their own stats, but they likely understand they are more dangerous up close than from far away.

So whilst you may find one options more obvious, others don't, which means different frostgiants could presumably have different opinions on the matter to.

It's been reconsidered. Frost Giants aren't going to be out doing whatever it is these frost giants are doing, then see a dragon that's minding it's own business and decide lets forget what we are doing, try to sneak up on it (cause they know they are 9 dex giants without proficiency in stealth - and they know this because they probably haven't snuck up on anything their whole lives), especially all the way to melee while in dragon breath formation. It's an absurd thought for any such creature with any bit of intelligence. 9 int just isn't that level of dumb.

And more importantly, I've already acknowledged the general idea of doing something to lure creatures into a favorable position is solid, even if this particular example strains believability.

Boci

2021-08-31, 09:59 PM

It's been reconsidered. Frost Giants aren't going to be out doing whatever it is these frost giants are doing, then see a dragon that's minding it's own business and decide lets forget what we are doing, try to sneak up on it (cause they know they are 9 dex giants without proficiency in stealth), especially all the way to melee while in dragon breath formation. It's an absurd thought for any such creature with any bit of intelligence. 9 int just isn't that level of dumb.

Couple of things you don't seem to be considering. Firstly, the red dragon is currently minding its own business, but only because its sleeping. Soon it will awaken, and awake red dragons aren't known for minding their own business.

Second of all, its sleeping. If the dragon were awake, sure, no giant reasonable giant would try and sneak past an awake but distracted dragon? But a sleeping dragon. They might. They can likely hazard a guess that dragons have decent senses, but its asleep, the idea that no giant in that position would considering trying to sneak up and finish the dragon before its awake and can take to the air is puzzling.

And more importantly, I've already acknowledged the general idea of doing something to lure creatures into a favorable position is solid, even if this particular example strains believability.

Yeah, I just find that an odd sticking point. I haven't even mentioned how this is a split life or death decision the frost giants have to make, which are factors that tend not to lend themselves to universal, predicative outcomes.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 10:04 PM

Couple of things you don't seem to be considering. Firstly, the red dragon is currently minding its own business, but only because its sleeping. Soon it will awaken, and awake red dragons aren't known for minding their own business.

Second of all, its sleeping. If the dragon were awake, sure, no giant reasonable giant would try and sneak past an awake but distracted dragon? But a sleeping dragon. They might. They can likely hazard a guess that dragons have decent senses, but its asleep, the idea that no giant in that position would considering trying to sneak up and finish the dragon before its awake and can take to the air is puzzling.

Yeah, I just find that an odd sticking point. I haven't even mentioned how this is a split life or death decision the frost giants have to make, which are factors that tend not to lend themselves to universal, predicative outcomes.

I've considered it all. Still, IMO it's an absurd example and it would never happen how you are advocating for in my games.

Boci

2021-08-31, 10:08 PM

I've considered it all. Still, IMO it's an absurd example and it would never happen how you are advocating for in my games.

I'm advocating for "different giants would have different opinions about this, since they are each individuals".

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 10:14 PM

I'm advocating for "different giants would have different opinions about this, since they are each individuals".

You are advocating for something much more than that.

Boci

2021-08-31, 10:17 PM

You are advocating for something much more than that.

No I don't think I am. I specifically said staying back and spreading out was a believe reaction too, and there's also the third options the giant just go "F- that" and retreat. None of the three options strike me as significantly more obvious than the others.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 10:25 PM

No I don't think I am. I specifically said staying back and spreading out was a believe reaction too, and there's also the third options the giant just *snip* retreat. None of the three options strike me as significantly more obvious than the others.

If it's only an adult dragon, I don't find retreat very believable. They outnumber it 8 to 1 (plus mammoths), and while it might be a match for any 2 of them, together they utterly outclass it, even if they're just throwing rocks.

Staying back and spreading out is a plausible reaction of they're cautious, but I think retreat only makes sense if they smell a trap and suspect additional enemies are present.

Boci

2021-08-31, 10:27 PM

If it's only an adult dragon, I don't find retreat very believable. They outnumber it 8 to 1 (plus mammoths), and while it might be a match for any 2 of them, together they utterly outclass it, even if they're just throwing rocks.

Staying back and spreading out is a plausible reaction of they're cautious, but I think retreat only makes sense if they smell a trap and suspect additional enemies are present.

Or they're worried about angering it. They've never seen the dragon here before, so I don't think it impossible they'd figure it might just be passing through the area and if they leave it alone it will wake up and fly on its journey.

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 10:30 PM

No I don't think I am.

It's okay, but I still think you are. Your argument basically boils down to if it's at all possible for these Giants to do X then it's an obvious and believable reaction. My issue is that we could fictionally justify almost any action these only partially concrete Giants would take because they are only partially concrete.

They could all take up a fit of madness and charge right to the pcs location without ever knowing they are there. That's not a very obvious scenario until you've first considered it but it's possible. Heck, if I wanted to push the issue i'm certain you wouldn't be able to tell me why this is a less obvious reaction than any other option. "Giants are individuals afterall". And yet I'm certain we both agree that's a terrible reaction to have the giants take. Even though it might be the perfect and most obvious course of action for some Giant somewhere.

I specifically said staying back and spreading out was a believe reaction too, and there's also the third options the giant just go "F- that" and retreat.

None of the three options strike me as significantly more obvious than the others.

2 of those options strike me as more obvious than the other. Not sure what more you want me to say here?

Boci

2021-08-31, 10:34 PM

They could all take up a fit of madness and charge right to the pcs location without ever knowing they are there. That's not a very obvious scenario until you've first considered it but it's possible. Heck, if I wanted to push the issue i'm certain you wouldn't be able to tell me why this is a less obvious reaction than any other option. "Giants are individuals afterall". And yet I'm certain we both agree that's a terrible reaction to have the giants take. Even though it might be the perfect course of action for some Giant somewhere.

No you're wrong, because I can explain why that's a less obvious a reaction; you could only justify it by "a fit of madness", which makes an action inherently less likely.

2 of those options strike me as more obvious than the other. Not sure what more you want me to say here?

Part of DMing is having NPCs react the way other people would, even if you personally don't see the sense in it.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 10:43 PM

Or they're worried about angering it. They've never seen the dragon here before, so I don't think it impossible they'd figure it might just be passing through the area and if they leave it alone it will wake up and fly on its journey.

That would make sense for a lone giant, but eight of them? Strength in numbers is very intuitive to most people, should be to giants too. Remember that together they have enough damage to kill it in one round in melee, two rounds with rocks.

I guess they could be afraid of it in the same way that a biker gang could be afraid of a rabid dog even though there's no chance the dog could kill all of them--but maybe it could badly hurt one of them. Is that the kind of fear you're thinking of?

Frogreaver

2021-08-31, 10:48 PM

No you're wrong, because I can explain why that's a less obvious a reaction; you could only justify it by "a fit of madness", which makes an action inherently less likely.

Are you sure... These specific individual Giants are incredibly prone to fits of madness. Why do you say having them act on their fit of madness produces a less likely action?

Part of DMing is having NPCs react the way other people would, even if you personally don't see the sense in it.

And it's also being able to see when something is a terrible justification that's just being leveraged for a player to get what they want. I don't see any group of Giant people trying to sneak up to a just encountered sleeping dragon in dragon breath formation. Maybe in some other formation.

EDIT: But I think we've beat this tangential horse to death and it's not worth discussing anymore. So I'm going to bow out of further conversation on this topic.

Boci

2021-08-31, 10:50 PM

That would make sense for a lone giant, but eight of them? Strength in numbers is very intuitive to most people, should be to giants too. Remember that together they have enough damage to kill it in one round in melee, two rounds with rocks.

I guess they could be afraid of it in the same way that a biker gang could be afraid of a rabid dog even though there's no chance the dog could kill all of them--but maybe it could badly hurt one of them. Is that the kind of fear you're thinking of?

Yeah but the giants don't necessarily know they have the damage to kill it that quickly, and rabid dogs also don't bring kingdoms to their knees like dragons can, at least in legends and folklore. It depends what the giants knowledge of red dragons are.

Also I think your numbers are off, assuming they successfully ambush it. The rocks would be a straight attack at first, since being unconscious cancels out the disadvantage for being prone, and if they do ambush it they're auto critting an unconscious target. Maybe you accounted for that, but it didn't look like it in your calculations.

Are you sure... These specific individual Giants are incredibly prone to fits of madness.

Sounds interesting, assuming you can come up with a better way of manifesting this madness than "they totally randomly charge to where the players just happen to be."

And it's also being able to see when something is a terrible justification that's just being leveraged for a player to get what they want.

3 people in this thread have 3 different opinions on how the giant would and wouldn't act. To me, that says its hard to nail down any one course of action as more obvious than another.

But sure, we can agree to disagree, its not terrible important.

MaxWilson

2021-08-31, 11:05 PM

Yeah but the giants don't necessarily know they have the damage to kill it that quickly, and rabid dogs also don't bring kingdoms to their knees like dragons can, at least in legends and folklore. It depends what the giants knowledge of red dragons are.

Ah, I see, it's a difference of opinion about lore.

I'm going off the tales of ancient emnity between giants and dragons, the fact that giants (reputedly) created Behir in order to kill dragons, etc. I'm assuming that the giants have heard stories about individual giants killing dragons before, in their myths and legends, and look upon dragons as near-peer competitors (like humans vs. crocodiles) instead of as awesome, superior beings.

In other words, I think the giants are probably not ignorant of their chances of killing a dragon, and may have even killed dragons before. That was my assumption anyway when choosing the illusion's nature. In a world where dragons and giants have a different relationship, that might not be a good choice of illusion.

Also I think your numbers are off, assuming they successfully ambush it. The rocks would be a straight attack at first, since being unconscious cancels out the disadvantage for being prone, and if they do ambush it they're auto critting an unconscious target. Maybe you accounted for that, but it didn't look like it in your calculations.

You're right, rock damage on the first rock should be higher. After that he's no longer unconscious.

Boci

2021-08-31, 11:10 PM

Ah, I see, it's a difference of opinion about lore.

I'm going off the tales of ancient emnity between giants and dragons, the fact that giants (reputedly) created Behir in order to kill dragons, etc. I'm assuming that the giants have heard stories about individual giants killing dragons before, in their myths and legends, and look upon dragons as near-peer competitors (like humans vs. crocodiles) instead of as awesome, superior beings.

In other words, I think the giants are probably not ignorant of their chances of killing a dragon, and may have even killed dragons before. That was my assumption anyway when choosing the illusion's nature. In a world where dragons and giants have a different relationship, that might not be a good choice of illusion.

That is certainly a valid way to run them. I tend to imagine giants as being a bit less cosmically significant, since in D&D they're not destined to slay the gods like they are in Norse mythology, but I can certainly see the appeal in tapping into that, norse mythology is awesome.