DEEDS: A Solution to the Lack of Interesting High Level Features for Martials

[strangebloke]

Thesis: High level martial (monk, rogue, fighter, barbarian) play is boring because of a lack of options that can be used proactively, and this should be fixed.



a lot of features, even high level features, are tied to ability checks and thus have very unclear, intangible benefits (like the 18th level indomitable might feature)
defensive options, even if strong, don't actually allow for a change in playstyle.
Many options involve a "choose from the same list over and over again" quality which means that you're picking your favorite option at first level and your least favorite option at 16th.
certain flavorful abilities are frankly too niche by the time you get them, and might be discordant with what the player is going for. A lot of 9th level rogue subclass features fall into this category. Though these abilities are interesting and I would like to see more like them, its questionable to me whether they're sufficient to justify an entire level.
A lot of features have the sole purpose of scaling damage, and though, strong these abilities tend to diminish in proportional utility as the game continues. Going from 1d6 sneak attack to 2d6 at 3rd level is a big deal. Going from 9d6 to 10d6 at 19th is less of a big deal.





needs to be coherent with all existing subclasses
needs to avoid giving strict numerical bonuses to skill checks or damages or attacks or resources (because of bounded accuracy)
needs to allow for out-of-combat utility
needs to not be excessively complex
should encourage staying in martial classes rather than multiclassing, perhaps by some kind of internal scaling.




Simple classes are needed for new players: Perhaps. But can players of characters who are 9th level or higher really be considered 'new'? Regardless, while agree that there should be some simple options, I do not think we need four whole classes for this type of playstyle, and in any case these rules are intended to be optional.

Fighters are strong though: The 'power' of a class depends a lot on build and playstyle and the nature of the campaign that the character is in. Regardless, the purpose of these changes is not to increase power level, its to increase the number of options available to a player. No doubt adding versatility will increase the power of these classes, but I do not think giving martials more versatility will ruin people's capacity to enjoy the game.

I have a good time playing martials at high level in their current form: Without even a drop of sarcasm, good for you! Seriously! But imo they can be more fun than they currently are.

Can't we just add generic options, like more structured ability check rules and attack-replacement options like disarm/shove/grab: such things can be fun, but they are not a solution to the problem at hand, which is a lack of high-level class features. Even if a fighter technically gets better because a "called shot" rule is added and fighters have lots of attacks.... the fighter is still essentially doing the same thing from levels 1-20. Moreover, rules that scale with skills or numbers of attacks are not generally beneficial to martials and benefit many of the strongest and most versatile caster classes just as much.



Proposed Solution:

9th level alternative class feature: Heroic Deeds. (replaces subclass feature for rogues, indomitable, brutal critical, or unarmored movement improvement) As a great hero, you are a cut above the ordinary and are capable of great deeds the likes of which lesser folk can only dream about. When you reach 9th level, you can learn two of the Heroic deeds outlined below. You can use any of the deeds you know three times before your next long rest.


Fake It Till you Make It: You are excellent at adapting to situations on the fly. As an action, you gain proficiency in one skill or tool for a hour. Alternately, you gain expertise in one skill you do have proficiency in.
Healing Hands: You are able to restore someone to fighting condition in record time. As an action touch an ally and make a medicine check. The target is healed for an amount equal to your medicine check.
Compelling Persona: As an action, make a persuasion or intimidation check. Choose a number of targets equal to the result of your check divided by three (round down). Every target must make a wisdom save (difficulty = 8+proficiency+CHA) or be charmed (persuasion) or frightened (intimidation) by you until you deal damage to them.
Thin Blade: You know pressure points and nerve centers so well that you can stab someone without them realizing. As an action, make a sleight of hand check while holding a finesse weapon, opposed by the passive perception of the target. If you fail this check, nothing happens. If you succeed, you may make an attack with advantage against the target with your finesse weapon, and the target will not notice any damage they have taken until an hour later.
Unmatched Aerialist: You throw yourself skyward with seemingly impossible force and grace. You can activate this ability as part of any other action. For the next ten minutes if you are wearing light armor or no armor you have a fly speed equal to your movement on your turns. At the end of each of your turns you fall to the earth. Reduce any fall damage taken at the end of your turn by ten.
Adrenaline Rush: push yourself harder and move faster than any normal person could. As an action, you increase your movement speed by 15 feet for the next hour.
Combat Patrol: You blur on the battlefield, everywhere and nowhere at once. As a bonus action, you adopt a stance that allows you to threaten a wide area on the battlefield. For the next minute your reach increases by five feet whenever it is not your turn.


13th level alternative class feature: Legendary Deeds. (replaces subclass feature for rogues, Indomitable, Brutal Critical, or Tongue of the Sun and Moon) You are a hero's hero, an example even to the greatest living. When you reach 13th level, you can learn one deed either from the Legendary Deeds list outlined below and one from the Heroic Deeds list above. You can use any of the deeds you know three more times than you could before taking this feature.


WIP

18th level alternative class feature: Mythic Deeds. (replaces Elusive, Subclass Feature for Fighters, Indomitable Might, or Empty Body) You are among the greatest people to ever have lived, the sort of person who will cast a long shadow over all of history. When you reach 18th level, you can learn one deed from the Mythic Deeds list and one more from either the Heroic or Legendary Deeds list. You can use any of the deeds you know two more times than you could before taking this feature.


WIP


I went through the four 'martial' classes and identified levels that fit the criteria outlined in characterizing the problem. To be clear, the problem with these levels is not necessarily that they're 'dead,' just that they're perhaps uninteresting and might be a natural point for someone to multiclass away. Surprisingly, although every class had four or more subjectively 'boring' level ups, no single level was boring for all four classes. Still, I selected 9th level, 13th level, 15th level, and 18th level as levels where I could add some kind of high level feature across all classes.

Borrowing from Grod's Myth class for 3.5, my thinking was to provide a list of unique powers (somewhat similar to spells) that can be activated by martials using a unique resource pool. Naturally some will see this as overpowered, others as needlessly complicating things, which is why I would cast these abilities strictly as an alternative class feature. Get to 9th level Assassin and don't feel like gaining the opportunity to adopt a second identity? Go pick up up some heroic deeds instead!

I'm not happy about potentially replacing two rogue subclass abilities, and I could easily be convinced to switch the legendary deeds feature to level 15.

I am rather confident that most of these abilities are massively overtuned or undertuned, and not balanced at all with each other. This is very much a work in progress, but I hope I can get a discussion going, and ultimately I much more want to make something interesting than balanced. My longterm intention is have a lot of options for deeds, with heroic deeds balanced somewhere around being a 2nd-3rd level spell with the tradeoff being that there's a very limited number of ways to use these features compared with a spell slot. legendary deeds are then something like a 3rd-4th level spell, and Mythic deeds being something like a 4th-5th level spell.

[OldTrees1]

1) You characterizing the problem very well and your solution parameters make sense.

2) While I prefer a more at will framework, this 3/6/8 deeds per long rest framework can work depending on the content. Personally I think the phrase "three more times than you could before taking this feature" could be hard for some players to parse but its complexity is there for a reason. You are saying at 13th level they could do 3 heroic deeds and 3 heroic/legendary deeds per long rest. You are leaving the option open for someone to spam a heroic deed while still limiting the new legendary deed.

3) Content is always hard and flaws in content have the least weight. (stream of consciousness starting as I read)
Heroic
A) The abilities seem to be proof of the versatility concept rather than fine tuned, which makes sense for examples. Although the abilities are diverse enough that I struggle to identify what is a power variance vs what is an ability appealing to my personal preferences. However as one example Unmatched Aerialist feels good enough to maybe (maybe) move to Legendary.
B) The use of durations helps make the limited use abilities appeal to those of us that prefer at-will abilities.
C) These abilities are quite the diverse collection and do a great job of showing out of combat applications.
D) These abilities generally feel level appropriate for 9th level. I think Combat Patrol relies on synergy to be relevant. Healing Hands feels a couple levels late but that is much closer than what it replaces.
Legendary & Mythic
oh, WIP.



Conclusion: It won't fix everything, but this would fix levels 9, 13, and 18th. I love this solution!

You are worried about replacing 2 rogue subclass features. A more complicated framework would let these 3 levels be alternate class features for any single level in their level ranges. So the Assassin that wants a second identity but is willing to forgo Blindsense (why??) could trade away their 14th level feature in exchange for this alternative level. Adjusting the level could be something mentioned in a "For DMs" sidebar.

[Saelethil]

Charging Leap
Given enough of a running start, you have become capable of jumping incredible distances. If you run 15 feet in a straight line, make an athletics check. You add the total of the roll to either your standard long or high jump. The distance you jump does not count against your movement. You can subtract an amount of damage from any fall damage equal to the total distance that could be covered using this ability.
I might make this an always on ability. I would expect it to come up outside of combat more often so I don't feel like it would need to be limited.

Improved Charging Leap
The base distance you can jump doubles. Additionally, If you run 30 feet in a straight line, make an athletics check with advantage and add triple the result to your base jump distance. You can subtract an amount of damage from any fall damage equal to the total distance that could be covered using this ability.

Extensively Trained
Choose 2 skills with which you have proficiency. Whenever you make an ability check with one of these skills, if the d20 roll is less than half your level in monk, fighter, and barbarian you can treat the roll as if it were half your level in those classes.
You say that they need to avoid giving strict numerical bonuses to skill checks (because of bounded accuracy) but one of your examples is Expertise. Extensively Trained would make the chosen skills more reliable (without being as good as Reliable Talent) without raising the ceiling of what they could potentially roll which I would argue is more dangerous, especialy considering that RAW you can't crit fail a skill check so expertise raises both the floor and ceiling. I'm not opposed to giving expertise as an option but a high strength Cleric with prof. in Athletics should need to roll incredibly high to have a chance at wining a grapple against a Barb. or Str. Fighter. While a Wizard may max their Dex. for AC and take Acrobatics fr fun, they should need the Dice God's blessing to out "Acrobatics" a Monk.

[strangebloke]

1) You characterizing the problem very well and your solution parameters make sense.

2) While I prefer a more at will framework, this 3/6/8 deeds per long rest framework can work depending on the content. Personally I think the phrase "three more times than you could before taking this feature" could be hard for some players to parse but its complexity is there for a reason. You are saying at 13th level they could do 3 heroic deeds and 3 heroic/legendary deeds per long rest. You are leaving the option open for someone to spam a heroic deed while still limiting the new legendary deed.

3) Content is always hard and flaws in content have the least weight. (stream of consciousness starting as I read)
Heroic
A) The abilities seem to be proof of the versatility concept rather than fine tuned, which makes sense for examples. Although the abilities are diverse enough that I struggle to identify what is a power variance vs what is an ability appealing to my personal preferences. However as one example Unmatched Aerialist feels good enough to maybe (maybe) move to Legendary.
B) The use of durations helps make the limited use abilities appeal to those of us that prefer at-will abilities.
C) These abilities are quite the diverse collection and do a great job of showing out of combat applications.
D) These abilities generally feel level appropriate for 9th level. I think Combat Patrol relies on synergy to be relevant. Healing Hands feels a couple levels late but that is much closer than what it replaces.
Legendary & Mythic
oh, WIP.



Conclusion: It won't fix everything, but this would fix levels 9, 13, and 18th. I love this solution!

You are worried about replacing 2 rogue subclass features. A more complicated framework would let these 3 levels be alternate class features for any single level in their level ranges. So the Assassin that wants a second identity but is willing to forgo Blindsense (why??) could trade away their 14th level feature in exchange for this alternative level. Adjusting the level could be something mentioned in a "For DMs" sidebar.
(1) thanks. I wanted to get ahead of any of the stupid discussions that these threads always turn into. I don't want to discuss whether "teleport" is the most or least powerful thing ever for example.
(2)IMO its hard to add versatility with at-will options. Such abilities always end up either obviously overtuned or just so niche that there isn't really much utility to be gained. So just tying it to a special resource works better.
(3)
(A) My idea was to balance these abilities as though they were 3rd level spells. Unmatched Aerialist is balanced around fly obviously but its quite a bit worse except for the part that it isn't concentration dependent
(D)The skill check dependent ones are weird because either you're a rogue healing for 30-40 or you're a barbarian healing for 5-25 damage. But yeah, these are meant to be things you can build toward to a degree, and combat patrol is perhaps the most obvious example here.

I like the idea of switching some levels around, but it feels like that could become needlessly complex. I'm already concerned what people will think about the

Charging Leap
Given enough of a running start, you have become capable of jumping incredible distances. If you run 15 feet in a straight line, make an athletics check. You add the total of the roll to either your standard long or high jump. The distance you jump does not count against your movement. You can subtract an amount of damage from any fall damage equal to the total distance that could be covered using this ability.
I might make this an always on ability. I would expect it to come up outside of combat more often so I don't feel like it would need to be limited.

Improved Charging Leap
The base distance you can jump doubles. Additionally, If you run 30 feet in a straight line, make an athletics check with advantage and add triple the result to your base jump distance. You can subtract an amount of damage from any fall damage equal to the total distance that could be covered using this ability.

Extensively Trained
Choose 2 skills with which you have proficiency. Whenever you make an ability check with one of these skills, if the d20 roll is less than half your level in monk, fighter, and barbarian you can treat the roll as if it were half your level in those classes.
You say that they need to avoid giving strict numerical bonuses to skill checks (because of bounded accuracy) but one of your examples is Expertise. Extensively Trained would make the chosen skills more reliable (without being as good as Reliable Talent) without raising the ceiling of what they could potentially roll which I would argue is more dangerous, especialy considering that RAW you can't crit fail a skill check so expertise raises both the floor and ceiling. I'm not opposed to giving expertise as an option but a high strength Cleric with prof. in Athletics should need to roll incredibly high to have a chance at wining a grapple against a Barb. or Str. Fighter. While a Wizard may max their Dex. for AC and take Acrobatics fr fun, they should need the Dice God's blessing to out "Acrobatics" a Monk.

Hmm. These charging leap abilities are frankly a bit too mundane and not as strong as I'd want them to be. remember, the balance point here is a 2nd to 3rd level spell, and jump is 1st level.

As for giving expertise, that's fine because it can't stack with other expertise and therefore can't break bounded accuracy.

[Rukelnikov]

Its a cool idea. I especially liked Thin Blade, it reminded me of Mosquito Bite, which was a skill trick in 3.5 that did a pretty similar thing, but they noticed the damage the following round for a Saint Seiya feel (or many other animes), where the combatants clash, and after saying some words the blood would splatter and they fall to the ground.

I'd maybe change the Mythic Deeds to 17 though, it keeps the every 4 levels thing, and its better for Barbarians and Monks (Empty Body is their true capstone), Figthers and Rogues will be better or worse depending on sub.

I'll try to think of some ideas, but as a baseline you could maybe consider allowing for some "extra" powerful ones spending hit die for effects, kinda like superiority dice (that's how I think Indomitable should be, spend a hit die add it to your roll), it has the side effect of being more Barbarian friendly, but there are already some examples that lean more towards some classes, so I think it should be fine.

[strangebloke]

Its a cool idea. I especially liked Thin Blade, it reminded me of Mosquito Bite, which was a skill trick in 3.5 that did a pretty similar thing, but they noticed the damage the following round for a Saint Seiya feel (or many other animes), where the combatants clash, and after saying some words the blood would splatter and they fall to the ground.

I'd maybe change the Mythic Deeds to 17 though, it keeps the every 4 levels thing, and its better for Barbarians and Monks (Empty Body is their true capstone), Figthers and Rogues will be better or worse depending on sub.

I'll try to think of some ideas, but as a baseline you could maybe consider allowing for some "extra" powerful ones spending hit die for effects, kinda like superiority dice (that's how I think Indomitable should be, spend a hit die add it to your roll), it has the side effect of being more Barbarian friendly, but there are already some examples that lean more towards some classes, so I think it should be fine.

Using hit dice as a resource feels too gimmicky. There's nothing like that in the game currently and no matter how you balance it its going to be either way too good at tables with no short rests or way too bad at tables with short rests. I think treating all this stuff as a separate resource pool makes it clean and tidy.

As for levels, I'd be fine switching to 17th, except that I don't want this feature literally replacing subclasses since this feature is supposed to offer more opportunities, not fewer. I want Rogues and Monks to feel like their subclasses matter and not feel pushed out of those things.

Perhaps I just need to embrace these being different levels for each class.

And TBH I think the problem is just kind of cursed for the monk. Monks have far fewer dead levels than fighters or rogues or barbarians.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thesis: High level martial (monk, rogue, fighter, barbarian) play is boring because of a lack of options that can be used proactively, and this should be fixed.
I disagree that high level monk play is boring, but let's roll with this.


needs to be coherent with all existing subclasses
needs to avoid giving strict numerical bonuses to skill checks or damages or attacks or resources (because of bounded accuracy)
needs to allow for out-of-combat utility
needs to not be excessively complex
should encourage staying in martial classes rather than multiclassing, perhaps by some kind of internal scaling.


I like your approach.
Your well poisoning I do not care for. {snip}

Proposed Solution:

9th level alternative class feature: Heroic Deeds. (replaces subclass feature for rogues, indomitable, brutal critical, or unarmored movement improvement).
As a great hero, you are a cut above the ordinary and are capable of great deeds the likes of which lesser folk can only dream about. When you reach 9th level, you can learn two of the Heroic deeds outlined below. You can use any of the deeds you know three times before your next long rest. You chose three because of ...???
My suggested edits will be hopefully clear.

Fake It Till you Make It: You are excellent at adapting to situations on the fly. As an action, you gain proficiency in one skill or tool for a hour. Alternately, you gain expertise in one skill you do have proficiency in. Knowledge cleric is on the phone, he's not happy with you as regards your first half.

B][Healing Hands:[/B] You are able to restore someone to fighting condition in record time. As an action touch an ally and make a medicine check. The target is healed for an amount equal to your medicine check. {I really like this one; combat lifesaver/combat first aid}

Compelling Persona: As an action, make a persuasion or intimidation check. Choose a number of targets equal to the result of your check divided by three (round down). Every target must make a wisdom save (difficulty = 8+proficiency+CHA) or be charmed (persuasion) or frightened (intimidation) by you until you deal damage to them. {lemme think about this one; first instinct is "I like this!"}

Thin Blade: You know pressure points and nerve centers so well that you can stab someone without them realizing. As an action, make a sleight of hand check while holding a finesse weapon, opposed by the passive perception of the target. If you fail this check, nothing happens. If you succeed, you may make an attack with advantage against the target with your finesse weapon, and the target will not notice any damage they have taken until an hour later. Nno thanks, that's a rogue/assassin thing, I'd prefer it not spread out across classes, so this should only be available to rogues or assassins. Maybe Shadow Monks. My dos centavos}


Unmatched Aerialist: You throw yourself skyward with seemingly impossible force and grace. You can activate this ability as part of any other action. For the next ten minutes if you are wearing light armor or no armor you have a fly speed equal to your movement on your turns. At the end of each of your turns you fall to the earth. Reduce any fall damage taken at the end of your turn by ten. {I can live with this, kind of a "leaps over tall buildings with a single bound" deal; I'd go with 1 minute rather than 10}

Adrenaline Rush: push yourself harder and move faster than any normal person could. As an action, you increase your movement speed by 15 feet for the next hour. {No con save for exhaustion? OK, exhaustion as written sucks so I think this works}

Combat Patrol: You blur on the battlefield, everywhere and nowhere at once. As a bonus action, you adopt a stance that allows you to threaten a wide area on the battlefield. For the next minute your reach increases by five feet whenever it is not your turn. {I like this a lot}

13th level alternative class feature: Legendary Deeds. (replaces subclass feature for rogues, Indomitable, Brutal Critical, or Tongue of the Sun and Moon) You are a hero's hero, an example even to the greatest living. When you reach 13th level, you can learn one deed either from the Legendary Deeds list outlined below and one from the Heroic Deeds list above. You can use any of the deeds you know three more times than you could before taking this feature. I don't get the hate for Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

WIP
OK

18th level alternative class feature: Mythic Deeds. (replaces Elusive, Subclass Feature for Fighters, Indomitable Might, or Empty Body) You are among the greatest people to ever have lived, the sort of person who will cast a long shadow over all of history. When you reach 18th level, you can learn one deed from the Mythic Deeds list and one more from either the Heroic or Legendary Deeds list. You can use any of the deeds you know two more times than you could before taking this feature. 3, 6, 8. Needs play testing.

WIP
OK


I could easily be convinced to switch the legendary deeds feature to level 15.
{yeah}


I am rather confident that most of these abilities are massively overtuned or undertuned, and not balanced at all with each other. This is very much a work in progress, but I hope I can get a discussion going, and ultimately I much more want to make something interesting than balanced. My long term intention is have a lot of options for deeds, with heroic deeds balanced somewhere around being a 2nd-3rd level spell with the tradeoff being that there's a very limited number of ways to use these features compared with a spell slot. legendary deeds are then something like a 3rd-4th level spell, and Mythic deeds being something like a 4th-5th level spell. Here's a design thought: treat like warlock's Mystic Arcanum.

For the record, my Indomitable on my level 14 Champion helped me half a dozen times make a save I'd missed, but a few times it didn't help at all.

[OldTrees1]

(A) My idea was to balance these abilities as though they were 3rd level spells. Unmatched Aerialist is balanced around fly obviously but its quite a bit worse except for the part that it isn't concentration dependent

On my first reading I missed the falling to earth at the end of each round. That makes it feel more like Tier 2 instead of Tier 3. I think you have a reasonable balance point of 2nd-3rd level spells.

Oh, and they might want to find an Immovable Rod for out of combat fun. :smallbiggrin: The 10 minute timer makes sense for out of combat.

[strangebloke]

A point I forgot to address: I'm aware that a mythic deed can be spammed to the exclusion of all others, but frankly I don't think that will be the biggest problem because of what these feats are meant to offer, namely, utility. If for example we add a mythic dead that lets you act as though you're under the effect of Freedom of movement it would hardly make sense for someone to use all their deeds on it, even if it is nominally the 'strongest' effect available.


Your well poisoning I do not care for. {snip}
I know I am a rude as hell person despite my best efforts but I'm really not trying to snipe people with whom I've argued about those topics in the past. I think all the counterarguments I presented are reasonable discussions to be had, I just don't want to have them here, so I'm trying to gently steer discussion away from them.

...and I also think high level monks are the most fun on this list, I'm mostly including them because I do feel their builds are a little prescripted even at high levels and people would enjoy having more options.

You chose three because of ...???
It felt right? I'm trying to avoid thinking about this in terms of power too much, but basically I thought of the heroic deeds as 2nd to 3rd level spells, and at 9th level paladins have 5 of those. So giving the other martials 3 such """spells""" is clearly far weaker than even a half caster (particularly because these abilities are less flexible than spell slots)

But I'll confess I've not really thought it through. I'd be open for suggestions.



Knowledge cleric is on the phone, he's not happy with you as regards your first half.
{I really like this one; combat lifesaver/combat first aid}
{lemme think about this one; first instinct is "I like this!"}
I'm very encouraged that you like so many of them!

stepping on the toes of some other classes is inevitable, and knowledge cleric gets that ability way earlier for way cheaper. Personally I think its fine but I am not dying on this hill.


Nno thanks, that's a rogue/assassin thing, I'd prefer it not spread out across classes, so this should only be available to rogues or assassins. Maybe Shadow Monks. My dos centavos}
Well as it stands this is really only going to be good on characters who have a very high sleight of hand and the ability to deal a lot of damage in a single strike. That's normally rogues, but could also be a particularly sneaky monk (perhaps using deft strike) or a really devious blackguard fighter with a poisoned blade.

It's still far and away a deed for assassins though. Getting a free crit with 5d6 sneak attack damage is very nice, and I don't think anyone else can replicate that.


{I can live with this, kind of a "leaps over tall buildings with a single bound" deal; I'd go with 1 minute rather than 10}
Well, in general a ten-minute duration is given to abilities you might want to use out of combat or set up before a combat. Out of combat use felt really important to me because such a big part of the point of having an ability like this is to backflip your way up to the top of a tower, or leap through the trees as you're hunting a foe.

I don't get the hate for Tongue of the Sun and Moon.
Oh I don't hate it at all I think its great. But as I said, there's no perfect level at which you can insert an option like this.

In the interest of showing my work:
https://i.imgur.com/pHq1m65.png

Here's a design thought: treat like warlock's Mystic Arcanum.

Well, they're fundamentally different though. MA is supposed to be a major class feature that gives you a few very powerful spells, but deeds is more about lower-power high-utility ""spells."" So I think I would want more of them available.


For the record, my Indomitable on my level 14 Champion helped me half a dozen times make a save I'd missed, but a few times it didn't help at all.
Right, and I don't think Indomitable is weak, really, I just think its subjectively unexciting to me and I'm assuming that there are others who agree. (though by level 13 it probably is weak)

On my first reading I missed the falling to earth at the end of each round. That makes it feel more like Tier 2 instead of Tier 3. I think you have a reasonable balance point of 2nd-3rd level spells.

Oh, and they might want to find an Immovable Rod for out of combat fun. :smallbiggrin: The 10 minute timer makes sense for out of combat.
immovable rod was something I thought of, yeah, and its very flavorful. Flipping and skipping your way through the sky!

Just to be clear do you think its too strong or too weak in its current form?

[Rukelnikov]

In the interest of showing my work:
https://i.imgur.com/pHq1m65.png


Hmm, I assume the x are the levels where the deeds could be inserted, right? I don't understand some of you choices, like lvl 19 is almost the same for all these classes, yet you only marked it on the Fighter. And Monks level 14 is one of the strongest class features in the game. Are you marking low versatility, low power, low impact?

[strangebloke]

Hmm, I assume the x are the levels where the deeds could be inserted, right? I don't understand some of you choices, like lvl 19 is almost the same for all these classes, yet you only marked it on the Fighter. And Monks level 14 is one of the strongest class features in the game. Are you marking low versatility, low power, low impact?

It's a (very strong) defensive feature, but yeah, I probably shouldn't have listed it. I did a second pass on the monk that was more ruthless when I realized monk has almost no dead levels

[OldTrees1]

A point I forgot to address: I'm aware that a mythic deed can be spammed to the exclusion of all others, but frankly I don't think that will be the biggest problem because of what these feats are meant to offer, namely, utility. If for example we add a mythic dead that lets you act as though you're under the effect of Freedom of movement it would hardly make sense for someone to use all their deeds on it, even if it is nominally the 'strongest' effect available.

I must have misunderstood something.

Wait, that was not how I understood the mechanic. "You can use any of the deeds you know three more times than you could before taking this feature." implied to me 3->6 and 0->3 as usage maximums out of a pool of 3->6 uses. Hence I thought you could use a max of 2 mythics per day (unless you wanted a 4th legendary or a 7th heroic). Sort of like 3/3/2 slots.

If you could use mythics for all your deeds per day. Then maybe word it as "You can use +3 deeds per day". Also maybe the uses should go 3->5->6 (more likely) or 4->6->6 (unlikely). Each new tier upgrades each existing use per day, so the more uses you have the fewer you would gain.



immovable rod was something I thought of, yeah, and its very flavorful. Flipping and skipping your way through the sky!

Just to be clear do you think its too strong or too weak in its current form?

I think it is the strongest option in the list, but it seems reasonable. Playtesting might fine tune it. If it is too strong the first change I would make would be to cut the fly speed in half. However I think the "falls at end of turn" restriction is sufficient.

[KorvinStarmast]

what these feats are meant to offer, namely, utility. OK, though that makes the little 'slip in the knife' one stand out like a sore thumb.


I've argued about those topics in the past... I just don't want to have them here, OK.


I thought of the heroic deeds as 2nd to 3rd level spells, and at 9th level paladins have 5 of those. So giving the other martials 3 such "spells" Ah, neat, makes more sense when I see the thought behind it.

stepping on the toes of some other classes is inevitable, and knowledge cleric gets that ability way earlier for way cheaper. Personally I think its fine but I am not dying on this hill. True enough, and as many games grind to a halt around level 11-12, the knowledge cleric has been skill monkeying around for most of the game already ... so toe stepping likely not an issue.

Well as it stands this is really only going to be good on characters who have a very high sleight of hand and the ability to deal a lot of damage in a single strike. That's normally rogues, but could also be a particularly sneaky monk (perhaps using deft strike) or a really devious blackguard fighter with a poisoned blade. with goggles of dark vision, what happens?

It's still far and away a deed for assassins though. Getting a free crit with 5d6 sneak attack damage is very nice, and I don't think anyone else can replicate that. AYe.


Well, in general a ten-minute duration is given to abilities you might want to use out of combat or set up before a combat. Out of combat use felt really important to me because such a big part of the point of having an ability like this is to backflip your way up to the top of a tower, or leap through the trees as you're hunting a foe. OK, I am getting a better picture now.


But as I said, there's no perfect level at which you can insert an option like this.
Tongue of sun and moon could have come at 9 and nobody would mind, I suspect.


Right, and I don't think Indomitable is weak, really, I just think its subjectively unexciting to me and I'm assuming that there are others who agree. (though by level 13 it probably is weak)
OK

[strangebloke]

Wait, that was not how I understood the mechanic. I thought you could use a max of 2 mythics per day (unless you wanted a 4th legendary or a 7th heroic). Sort of like 3/3/2 slots.

You only get to know one mythic deed, but you can use your deed uses on any of your deeds. That's what this means:

''You can use any of the deeds you know three [more times] than you could before taking this feature''


If you could use mythics for all your deeds per day, then maybe the uses should go 3->5->6 or 4->7->8 (probably not the latter, but Tier 4 design gets wonky). Each new tier upgrades each existing use per day, so the more uses you have the fewer you would gain.

3->5->6 or something like that might be reasonable. It's all contingent on what those mythic deeds actually look like though (I'll do more work on that this weekend)


I think it is the strongest option in the list, but it seems reasonable. Playtesting might fine tune it. If it is too strong the first change I would make would be to cut the fly speed in half. However I think the "falls at end of turn" restriction is sufficient.

Hopefully I can get more feedback in any case. It does have an additional restriction of "no armor" which makes it less desireable for (some) fighters but otherwise yeah its quite strong (though with first level race-based flight existing... is it really overpowered?)

[OldTrees1]

You only get to know one mythic deed, but you can use your deed uses on any of your deeds.
Perhaps "You can use 3 more Deeds per day"?


3->5->6 or something like that might be reasonable. It's all contingent on what those mythic deeds actually look like though (I'll do more work on that this weekend)
Yes, it will depend on what the mythic deeds look like.



Hopefully I can get more feedback in any case. It does have an additional restriction of "no armor" which makes it less desirable for (some) fighters but otherwise yeah its quite strong (though with first level race-based flight existing... is it really overpowered?)

You are doing a good job of making these Deeds be non comparables. There is always going to be a strongest option in a list but power does not translate into dominance for non comparables.

I do not think the Deed is overpowered. (Although the flight races can be) It think it does a good job of hitting the 2.5 spell level target.

[strangebloke]

OK, though that makes the little 'slip in the knife' one stand out like a sore thumb. K
My thinking was more like an assassination tool, or perhaps used to weaken an enemy before a gladiatorial fight.

It's admittedly super weak, but I think its fine as an option.


Tongue of sun and moon could have come at 9 and nobody would mind, I suspect.
For sure, yeah. Really my philosophy here is that utility abilities like tongue of son and moon should be handed out like crackers to martials because they're really fun and basically never a 'problem' from a gameplay perspective.