My minimalist version of 5e

[Eric Diaz]

I'm writing a minimalist version of 5e, and I'm looking for feedback and details I might have missed - especially if something is particularly broken.

I tried parts of it in my games, and it worked well, but now I want to try to create a finished thing (maybe a small product one day).

The reason is 5e has too many parts for me and my group to remember in play. Players are often forgetting spells, features, etc. It also has, IMO, too many details that are not really useful - such as skills and tools you rarely use, an entire fighting style to give you conditional +1 AC, etc. I also dislike the redundancy of spellcasting classes, but that's just me (I think metamagic should be a wizard option, for example).

I know this is a matter of taste and there are lots of people that started with 3.x or PF and find 5e very simple, That's okay. My favorite version of D&D is Moldvay's Basic, but I really like 5e too. I am also running a Shadow of the Demon Lord campaign and I'm incorporating some ideas from there.

Anyway, I'll post the whole thing here too see if anyone is interested in providing feedback. Thanks in advance.

---

In a nutshell:

- There is no proficiency or proficiency bonus.
- Ability modifiers are bigger (+7 if you have a 17, for example). You apply this to all saving throws, skills, attacks, etc.
- You apply half your modifier for damage, AC, HP and other things you couldn't normally add your proficiency bonus to.
- There are three main classes: warrior, spellcaster and expert.
- There is no "Save DC" anymore. You roll 1d20+Int to beat the target's Dex to hit it with a fireball, etc. You can choose which side rolls, the chances are the same.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think your first two changes are going to help that much, to be honest--if your players are having trouble remembering when to add their proficiency bonus, they're going to have trouble remembering when to only use half your ability score.

[Eric Diaz]

I don't think your first two changes are going to help that much, to be honest--if your players are having trouble remembering when to add their proficiency bonus, they're going to have trouble remembering when to only use half your ability score.

Fair enough! Thanks for the feedback.

We've been playing SotDL for a while and they've become accustomed to the idea. My goal is that you only add half when your character sheet says so - which means (pre-calculated) AC, HP and damage. Everything else (skills, saves, attacks, etc.) uses the full bonus.

However, I'll admit I'm tempted to add the full bonus to HP and damage (kinda cancelling each other out) to substitute fighting styles and feats that add more damage.

[Eric Diaz]

Another bit:

No limits
This game enforces few explicit limits to characters. All characters are able to use all ordinary weapons or armor without a penalty. All characters can cast spells (with the right feature, scroll or grimoire). All characters can cast spells in armor (provided they are unencumbered). All characters can sneak around. Etc.

Notice that the GM may have setting limitations – maybe clerics vow to never use a greataxe or eat meat, and maybe dwarves cannot learn magic – but the game assumes no such limitations in its mechanics. This part is all up to the setting and to the GM.

[Yakk]

So, if you _really_ want to simplify:


- You apply half your modifier for damage, AC, HP and other things you couldn't normally add your proficiency bonus to.
Drop that.

Instead, you don't add your ability modifier to AC, HP and the like.


- There are three main classes: warrior, spellcaster and expert.
Then we add class features.

Expert: You can use your Dexterity as your AC, up to a max of (10+level).
Warrior: You can use any of Dexterity, Strength or Constitution as your AC, to a max of (10+level), and can add a shield bonus to this.

Spellcasters would boost their AC in using spells, like:

Mage Armor: Your can use your Intelligence as your AC, up to a max of (10+level). Duration 8 hours.

Similarly for damage:
Heavy Weapons: You can add your Strength bonus to damage with a heavy melee weapon, or a versatile melee weapon used two-handed.

We can even have fun elsewhere

Light Armor: AC 12
Medium Armor: AC 15
Heavy Armor: AC 15, and gain temporary HP equal to your constitution bonus plus your level after a rest, or by readjusting your armor as an action.
Shield: +2 AC

...

So now, you can attack with a Longsword and Shield for 1d8, or you could grab a Greatsword and do 2d6+strength bonus.

The heavy armor PC with 14 con has 5 temporary HP at level 1. At level 20, they have 24 temporary HP to start each fight.

...

Buy maybe this isn't what you are looking for.

[Eric Diaz]

So, if you _really_ want to simplify:


Drop that.

Instead, you don't add your ability modifier to AC, HP and the like.


Then we add class features.

Expert: You can use your Dexterity as your AC, up to a max of (10+level).
Warrior: You can use any of Dexterity, Strength or Constitution as your AC, to a max of (10+level), and can add a shield bonus to this.

Spellcasters would boost their AC in using spells, like:

Mage Armor: Your can use your Intelligence as your AC, up to a max of (10+level). Duration 8 hours.

Similarly for damage:
Heavy Weapons: You can add your Strength bonus to damage with a heavy melee weapon, or a versatile melee weapon used two-handed.

We can even have fun elsewhere

Light Armor: AC 12
Medium Armor: AC 15
Heavy Armor: AC 15, and gain temporary HP equal to your constitution bonus plus your level after a rest, or by readjusting your armor as an action.
Shield: +2 AC

...

So now, you can attack with a Longsword and Shield for 1d8, or you could grab a Greatsword and do 2d6+strength bonus.

The heavy armor PC with 14 con has 5 temporary HP at level 1. At level 20, they have 24 temporary HP to start each fight.

...

Buy maybe this isn't what you are looking for.

Thanks! I like it, specially the heavy weapons part (2h weapons need the boost if we get rid of the GWM feat).

What I'm looking for is creating something that is:

- Roughly compatible with existing campaigns and adaptable to existing options.
- Easy to teach and use.
- Trimmed down to about 30-50 pages (for the PHB). This will probably exclude spells, since there are too many to condensate.

[Yakk]

Ah, you want compatibilty.

Ok.

Start off with the TWF Rogue as your at-will damage model (for a PC with no ability to spike damage).

Accuracy: +5 in T1, +7 in T2, +9 in T3, +11 in T4
We'll assume 60% accuracy 5% crit for DPR purposes, and 91%/10% with advantage. The TWF rogue gets advantage say 1/4 of the time.

Weapon damage is 2d6+3 +SA in T1, 2d6+4 in T2, 2d6+5 in T3+. This is 6-8 damage per round, or 10-12 with advantage.

SA damage is level/2 d6 rounded up, or about 1+1.75*L. We'll assume subclasses and other class features do something useful damage wise, and make it 1+2.3*L.

SA accuracy without advantage is 91%/7%; this is basically 100%. With advantage, the rogue can crit-fish and hit 92%/19% or use sneak attack first chance for 99%/11%, both about 110%.

normal: 6+0.1*level+1+2.3*level without advantage = 7 + 2.4*level
advantage: 10+0.1*level+1.1+2.5*level with advantage = 11 + 2.6*level
After averaging we get 8+2.5*level damage per round.

We had to use accuracy here because of the double chance to land a weapon attack.

If we then divide by accuracy, we get about 12+4*level "raw" damage.

[Eric Diaz]

Ah, you want compatibilty.

Ok.

Start off with the TWF Rogue as your at-will damage model (for a PC with no ability to spike damage).

Accuracy: +5 in T1, +7 in T2, +9 in T3, +11 in T4
We'll assume 60% accuracy 5% crit for DPR purposes, and 91%/10% with advantage. The TWF rogue gets advantage say 1/4 of the time.

Weapon damage is 2d6+3 +SA in T1, 2d6+4 in T2, 2d6+5 in T3+. This is 6-8 damage per round, or 10-12 with advantage.

SA damage is level/2 d6 rounded up, or about 1+1.75*L. We'll assume subclasses and other class features do something useful damage wise, and make it 1+2.3*L.

SA accuracy without advantage is 91%/7%; this is basically 100%. With advantage, the rogue can crit-fish and hit 92%/19% or use sneak attack first chance for 99%/11%, both about 110%.

normal: 6+0.1*level+1+2.3*level without advantage = 7 + 2.4*level
advantage: 10+0.1*level+1.1+2.5*level with advantage = 11 + 2.6*level
After averaging we get 8+2.5*level damage per round.

We had to use accuracy here because of the double chance to land a weapon attack.

If we then divide by accuracy, we get about 12+4*level "raw" damage.

This is useful, thanks!

+5 in T1, +7 in T2, +9 in T3, +11 in T4 is something I think I can ALMOST achieve using abilities like I described above.

[Arkhios]

Ditch Constitution entirely, or at least disconnect Constitution and hit points. Instead, have all classes receive their maximum in hit points every level. Characters will certainly start slightly weaker, but not too much so, and they'll get better.

Likewise, disconnect Dexterity from AC. Have the armor worn dictate the AC entirely, not just with heavy armor. You may need to reduce the number of available armor types, but for minimalist purpose, that shouldn't be a problem either. In the case of an Unarmored Defense, the AC could be equal to the key ability score of the relevant class. For example, should you still use the standard classes, a monk's unarmored AC could be equal to their wisdom score, and barbarian's to their Constitution score. And, slightly altered, Draconic Sorcerer's to their Charisma score. Similarly Mage Armor could be changed to depend on the caster's spellcasting ability score; for a wizard the AC would be equal to their Intelligence Score.

I would also argue that Dexterity should be disconnected from initiative, because it's really only a method to determine who goes first. A simple d20 roll should be enough for that. Initiative doesn't really need an inherent bonus. Should you want to use feats, Alert grants a big edge, and should be fine, or you could just change it to granting advantage on the roll.

I like your take on ability modifiers. Essentially your score minus 10, right? Having removed proficiency, it's actually quite fine. Actually, this might also benefit the Armor = AC as I suggested above. Since, theoretically, attack bonuses might be slightly better, it would be ok to increase potential AC from armor a bit, which in turn would support the idea of having more variation in armor types.

I would argue that you could make weapons deal their damage with only their dice. There's already enough variation.

Anyway, these are my 2 cp.

[Kane0]

Huh. I would have based basically everything on prof bonus and cutting abilities from most things instead of vice versa.

Attack = double prof to hit, die + prof damage
Spell DC = 8 + double prof
Skills = prof as base, double prof for proficiency, triple prof for expertise
Initiative = prof
AC = light 10 + prof, med 12 + prof, heavy 14 + prof
HP from level = class die + prof bonus
Hit Die = class die + prof bonus
Stat times per rest = prof times per rest
Add stat to X roll = add prof to X roll
Etc, etc, etc

[Yakk]

This is useful, thanks!

+5 in T1, +7 in T2, +9 in T3, +11 in T4 is something I think I can ALMOST achieve using abilities like I described above.
It is based off of:
At level 1, you have 16 stat +2 prof in T1 (+5)
By level 5, you have 18 stat and +3 prof in T2 (+7)
By level 11 you have 20 stat and +4 prof in T3 (+9)
By level 17 you have 20 stat and +6 prof in T4 (+11)

Naturally you can have a lower stat than that, but you have enough ASIs in a point buy game to hit that. And part way through a tier you can approach/match the next tier's accuracy.

[Eric Diaz]

Ditch Constitution entirely, or at least disconnect Constitution and hit points. Instead, have all classes receive their maximum in hit points every level. Characters will certainly start slightly weaker, but not too much so, and they'll get better.

Likewise, disconnect Dexterity from AC. Have the armor worn dictate the AC entirely, not just with heavy armor. You may need to reduce the number of available armor types, but for minimalist purpose, that shouldn't be a problem either. In the case of an Unarmored Defense, the AC could be equal to the key ability score of the relevant class. For example, should you still use the standard classes, a monk's unarmored AC could be equal to their wisdom score, and barbarian's to their Constitution score. And, slightly altered, Draconic Sorcerer's to their Charisma score. Similarly Mage Armor could be changed to depend on the caster's spellcasting ability score; for a wizard the AC would be equal to their Intelligence Score.

I would also argue that Dexterity should be disconnected from initiative, because it's really only a method to determine who goes first. A simple d20 roll should be enough for that. Initiative doesn't really need an inherent bonus. Should you want to use feats, Alert grants a big edge, and should be fine, or you could just change it to granting advantage on the roll.

I like your take on ability modifiers. Essentially your score minus 10, right? Having removed proficiency, it's actually quite fine. Actually, this might also benefit the Armor = AC as I suggested above. Since, theoretically, attack bonuses might be slightly better, it would be ok to increase potential AC from armor a bit, which in turn would support the idea of having more variation in armor types.

I would argue that you could make weapons deal their damage with only their dice. There's already enough variation.

Anyway, these are my 2 cp.

Most of these changes make sense, although some are a bit too far from baseline 5e to make compatibility a bit harder. I completely agree with your point on initiative, and I think this is how the game should function (or, instead of Dex, add Str if you're making an attack, Int if you're casting a spell, etc.).


Huh. I would have based basically everything on prof bonus and cutting abilities from most things instead of vice versa.

Attack = double prof to hit, die + prof damage
Spell DC = 8 + double prof
Skills = prof as base, double prof for proficiency, triple prof for expertise
Initiative = prof
AC = light 10 + prof, med 12 + prof, heavy 14 + prof
HP from level = class die + prof bonus
Hit Die = class die + prof bonus
Stat times per rest = prof times per rest
Add stat to X roll = add prof to X roll
Etc, etc, etc

Yes, this would work too, since the bonuses are ROUGHLY equivalent. Using ability scores is a matter of taste.


It is based off of:
At level 1, you have 16 stat +2 prof in T1 (+5)
By level 5, you have 18 stat and +3 prof in T2 (+7)
By level 11 you have 20 stat and +4 prof in T3 (+9)
By level 17 you have 20 stat and +6 prof in T4 (+11)

Naturally you can have a lower stat than that, but you have enough ASIs in a point buy game to hit that. And part way through a tier you can approach/match the next tier's accuracy.

Perfect! If I allow abilities going from, say, 15 to 20, the results would be quite similar until level 17. I'm plaanning on giving +1 to all abilities on levels 5, 11 and 17.

[Eric Diaz]

So, here is my next step:

Every power uses HD.

The reason for that is because my players didn't remember how many times they'd used each feature or spell slot from one session to another; having a single pool would be very useful.

Rage costs HD, berserker rage costs 2HD, same for indomitable, ki is now HD, as it superiority dice and inspiration dice. You have to adapt the power, of course; "action surge" becomes a single extra attack or something (making it a lot less powerful, less interesting for MCing, and a bit more boring).

In addition to that, spellcasting classes get spell points.

Long rests restore maybe half HD and a fraction of HP, because I like slower healing (which is a matter of taste).

This needs extensive fine-tuning, but if you can see some issue with the main idea (fueling powers with HD) on principle, let me know of any potential hurdles I might be missing.

[Eric Diaz]

The warrior:


Your Hit die is a d10. Your starting HP is 10 + CON/2.
Odd levels. Pick a feature (except for special levels).
Even levels. Raise one ability score by one point (except for special levels).
Special levels: on levels 5, 11, 17, and 20, pick a special feature (the first special feature must be extra attack). On levels 5, 9, 13 and 17, raise all ability scores by one point.

Warrior features
Fighting Mastery. You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with weapons (or unarmed); grappling; and escaping from grapples. You also gain a +1 bonus to AC. In addition, choose one category of weapons (bows, two-handed weapons, heavy weapons, finesse weapons, etc.). When wielding these weapons, your attacks rolls get a +2 bonus instead of +1.

Protection. When a creature you can see attacks you or a target that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You must be wielding a shield. In addition, while you are wearing armor or wielding a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

Second Wind. On your turn, you spend a hit die and use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to your hit die + your Constitution modifier. You cannot use this feature again for one minute.

Action Surge. You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. Once per turn, you can spend one hit die to make another attack for free, or to Dash or Disengage with a bonus action.

Indomitable. You can reroll a saving throw that you fail by spending one Hit Die. If you do so, you add your Hit Die to the roll. You must use the new roll.

Improved Critical (2). Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20. When you score a critical hit, add 5 points of damage to the total. If you pick this twice, you also score a critical hit on a roll of 18, and add 10 points of damage instead of 5 to your critical hits.

Brutal Attack. You can spend one hit die to add it to your damage roll.

Accurate Attack. You can spend one hit die to add it to your attack roll.

Distracting Attack. You can spend one hit die to give one creature you just hit disadvantage on its next attack roll.

Commander. You can spend one hit die to add it to its next to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes before the beginning of your next turn. To do so, you use a bonus action on your turn to choose one creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can hear you.

Special features.
Extra Attack (3). You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. The number of attacks increases to three if you pick this feature twice and to four if you pick this three times.

Survivor. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + CON/2 if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don’t gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.