Brainstorming - Low Magic Areas

[jjordan]

I'm thinking of an area where magic has concentrated in certain areas. For the purposes of discussion let's say we've got ley lines connecting areas of abundant magic. The areas in between are low in magic. I'm trying to think of how to mechanically implement these low magic areas.

Off the top of my head I'm thinking about adding a skill roll for casters. Spell DC is 10 plus the level of the spell. If they fail then the spell simply doesn't work, but they don't lose the spell slot.

Alternatives include:
-Requiring spells be upcast by one level to work. E.G. Casting a cantrip costs a 1st level spell slot, casting a 2nd level spell costs a 3rd level spell slot.
-Limiting spells to 3rd level or below.

I'm going to make magic items which are essentially batteries available. An example would be a wand which contains 4 levels of spell slots. It doesn't perform any magic but casters can draw on the levels within the wand to reliably perform magic.

This is purely tied to setting in a localized area within my campaign and not an attempt to make general changes.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Old Harry MTX]

I don't like that much a fail roll, I prefer the solution that upcast the cost of spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Agreed--forced upcasting is a predictable, across-the-board tax. The skill roll, on the other hand, will have virtually no effect out of combat (where you can afford to try a few times) and make combat casting feel more chaotic, rather than limited.

As a bonus, it gives you a built-in method to implement high-magic areas--where two lay lines cross, spells are automatically upcast one level.

[Old Harry MTX]

You actually have to think it well. Maybe instead of saying that the level of a spell slot required to cast a spell increases by one, it is better to say that all the spell slots must be considered as one level lower? This way you easily consider the warlock's spell slots as well.

Also, a class like the warlock, which relies heavily on cantrips and has very few spell slots, is heavily penalized by this field. Maybe that's acceptable, alternatively the cantrips might behave differently in this field, for example with something like "you must be at least 5th level to cast a cantrip, and when you do, consider it to be cast at a level equal to your overall level - 4 ". This would obviously place Low-Magic Field as a spell of at least 3rd level.

A ritual probably should have an increased casting time.

Finally, there is the problem of spontaneous or at-will spellcasting, such as the ability of the Glamour Bard to cast Command without spending spell slots against charmed creatures. What's happens in this case?

[brian 333]

I would go another route:

Low magic means less effect.

Leave level and spell slots alone, but all of the other parameters of a spell are reduced by a percentage depending on the region.

Say a -10% region:
Components= +10% consumed
Casting time= +10% longer
Range= 10% shorter
Duration= -10% if not instantaneous
Area of Effect= 10% smaller
Damage= reduced by 10%
Saving Throws= 10% easier
And so on.

A successful Detect Magic check should allow the caster to know the effect his spells will have in the region, but trial and error works too. Spells might fail if the necessary components aren't available, (has a 500gp diamond, needs a 550gp diamond,) but the attempt should still consume the materials.

This system might be annoying to the PC, but won't make a primary caster useless or eliminate his best spells. It also allows for locations of more potent magic. A powerful ley line might offer a 10% bonus, or where two lines meet might offer 20%. A location that allows standing in the ley line might offer +50%, though such places probably have a shrine or wizard's tower on them.

A final benefit to this system is that it can also be applied to monster abilities.

Feat: Ambient Magic Accomodation

When a spellcaster prepares his spells for the day he can prepare them for the local magical zone. (He must be in the zone to prep for it.) While this will not reduce components required or casting time, it will restore the effect parameters of the spell to normal.

Moving from one zone to another will negate the benefits of this spell. (Optionally, spells prepared in a -10% zone are treated as -10% in a -20% zone.) This feat cannot be used to increase spell effects beyond the parameters in the spell discription. Using this feat in a positive effect zone reduces its potential to the spell discription limits.

This feat is only available to spellcasters who must prepare spells, and cannot be applied to spells cast spontaneously for any caster.

[jjordan]

You actually have to think it well. Maybe instead of saying that the level of a spell slot required to cast a spell increases by one, it is better to say that all the spell slots must be considered as one level lower? This way you easily consider the warlock's spell slots as well.

Also, a class like the warlock, which relies heavily on cantrips and has very few spell slots, is heavily penalized by this field. Maybe that's acceptable, alternatively the cantrips might behave differently in this field, for example with something like "you must be at least 5th level to cast a cantrip, and when you do, consider it to be cast at a level equal to your overall level - 4 ". This would obviously place Low-Magic Field as a spell of at least 3rd level.

A ritual probably should have an increased casting time.

Finally, there is the problem of spontaneous or at-will spellcasting, such as the ability of the Glamour Bard to cast Command without spending spell slots against charmed creatures. What's happens in this case?
And here is why I considered the spell success check to be my top contender among the options. Anyone who casts makes a skill role using their casting stat and the spell works or it doesn't. It covers every situation. Bumping up the cost is simpler for 80% of situations AND is more predictable for players but then the outlying cases have to be covered by making the rule more complicated.

[Old Harry MTX]

And here is why I considered the spell success check to be my top contender among the options. Anyone who casts makes a skill role using their casting stat and the spell works or it doesn't. It covers every situation. Bumping up the cost is simpler for 80% of situations AND is more predictable for players but then the outlying cases have to be covered by making the rule more complicated.

Yes, I supposed you made it like that for that reason. In the end your original solution applies universally to all spells. The thing that concerns me is that the Arcane Spell Failure was a thing in 3.5e, and has been removed from 5e because it was considered annoying. On the other hand, spells like antimagic field or counterspell are commonplace, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Comparing it to counterspell, what level would you put low-magic field on?

Also, what CDs would you use for magical abilities that aren't actual spells, such as the 14th-level feature Unbreakable Majesty of the glamour bard? (Sorry if I always refer to that subclass but I'm working on it these days)

[jjordan]

My opinion is that the fractional reductions are simply too complicated and open to participant conflict. If I used something like this I'd make it a simple 50% reduction and I'd make the characteristic which is affected be determined by a roll on a table. But even that feels a little to complicated for me.

These are places where magic is harder to use because there isn't a lot of it around. It's not an effect achieved by the use of magic because that would be the kind of world/reality alteration only achievable with a wish spell or by direct deity-level intervention. Comparing this to counterspell is a good point. My top contender for implementation uses the counterspell mechanic: Beat a DC10+spell level check with the primary casting stat or the spell fails.

I recognize that spell failure isn't popular (I love it, but I recognize that I'm in a very small minority group on this one). But this is supposed to be an area where magic doesn't work well. It's not a general nerf of casters, it's an environmental hazard that can be mitigated, to a degree, with proper preparation. And there are plenty of places where casters enjoy enhanced abilities while martial abilities are somewhat reduced, so it doesn't seem unfair. Granted there's a difference between reduction of action effectiveness and action failure.

I *think* the mechanic I'm proposing is actually pretty forgiving. If someone counterspells a character then they lose the spell slot. Antimagic fields prevent magic from being used at all and if try to cast you lose the spell slot (and won't know about the effect until you lose the spell slot). In this low magic area if you try to cast and fail you don't lose the spell slot and can try again next round. Given the take-20 mechanic it will only really affect casting in combat.

All of which is me putting forth my reasoning on why I considered the skill-check to be the front runner. I'm open to having my mind changed and the argument relating to the use of innate abilities which aren't spell casting but use the spell mechanic is really the biggest issue for me right now. I think the skill-check mechanic does the best job of simply addressing this, but I'm not at all sure it does a good job of this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The number one issue with the skill check as you've designed it is that it's almost completely irrelevant outside of combat. In a fight, sure, it's important to know if you get your Fireball off this round or if you waste your action and have to try again. Outside of a fight? 99% of the time, it won't matter if it takes you six seconds or eighteen seconds to cast Invisibility on the Rogue before they go a-sneaking. Post-combat healing? Divinations? Long-duration buffs and summons? Stuff like that will function exactly the same. It'll feel less like magic is scarce and more like magic is fragile and needs to be handled delicately.

That may or may not be what you want, but you should be aware of it.

[brian 333]

The skill check is a pass-or-fail. You get the same result as normal if you pass, so really you are just creating a need for an item that makes the check unnecessary, and now the flavor you were looking for is gone. It's no different than any other spell component.

With a percentage reduction, keep it in increments of 10 for easy calculation.

"You rolled 18 points of damage. Move the decimal one space to the left, that's 1.8, so you inflict 16 points due to the low magic effect."

Worst case, you put a calculator on the table. (Or use the one on the player's phone.)

The percentage allows any use of magic from wizard spells to dragon breath to be controlled by the exact same mechanic, it is simple, and it allows huge variences in magical field density.

[jjordan]

Options:

-Skill Check (DC whatever to cast or fail to cast)
-Upcast Costs (A level 1 spell requires a level 2 slot to cast at level 1)
-Fractional Reduction (Spell range, effect, etc... reduced by a set amount)
-Limit Castable Spell Levels (Only spells of level 3 or below can be cast)
-Double Casting Time (to reflect the difficulty of gathering magic)

All of these come with pros and cons and unresolved questions. The biggest question is how are abilities which use the spell mechanics affected?

No-magic areas are easy. Reduced magic areas appear to be difficult.

[Grod_The_Giant]

but then the outlying cases have to be covered by making the rule more complicated.
How about using the upcasting rule for casters (because it's really elegant), and for everything else have a rule like "magical abilities that are normally usable at will can only be used once per short rest. Those that normally recharge on a short rest instead require a long rest, and those that normally recharge on a long rest instead require two long rests."

That's easy enough to remember, should be compatible with everything*, and gets across the feeling of "limited available magic" while keeping things totally under the players' control.

Definitely don't do fractional adjustments, though. That'll lead to way too many headaches when applied to anything beyond straight damage dealing/healing spells.



*I guess you'd have to rule on what's a magical-but-not-spellcasting ability and what isn't, but you were going to have to do that no matter what. I really miss 3.5's (ex)/(su)/(sp) tags sometimes...

[brian 333]

...

Definitely don't do fractional adjustments, though. That'll lead to way too many headaches when applied to anything beyond straight damage dealing/healing spells.

...

Okay, I guess I am at a loss here, because I don't get what makes the idea I presented either difficult or a headache.

The OP said he wasn't interested in the idea for the same reasons as posted above, but that in general was not unwilling to be convinced. I gave it one more shot.

But the quoted text has me wondering what might be either difficult or headache-inducing about my proposal? A 10% magic reducing area would have a 10% impact on anything that has a numeric component.

If the casting time is instantaneous, +10% of that is still instantaneous. If it has a duration of permanent, -10% of that equals permanent. There is nothing in the proposal that might lead to uncertainty or argument unless someone insists on rounding down for monsters and rounding up for his PC. Saves, damage, range, duration, whatever, are all treated the same.

And the dragon's breath still happens 3 times per day, just as the PC can still cast the same number of spells per day. No extra rules needed.

Forced upcasting seems much more frustrating to me. Your 5th level wizard will now have to wait until level 7 to cast that fireball. And you are stuck with cantrips until level 3?

The most frustrating proposal of all is forcing a save every casting for a potential fail. You finally get to the boss and cast your dominate undead. Your spell now has two chances to fail instead of one. Who would want to play the caster when he is reduced to half his effective usefulness?

My proposal would be simple to implement, simple to calculate, and would automatically cover all situations equally. The best part is, without the need for any additional rules, it would apply fairly to all hostile magic as well.

The OP has already said he doesn't wish to use my proposal, and I'm okay with that. What I'm asking for is clarification. What exactly makes my proposal difficult or likely to cause headaches? I honestly don't understand how it can.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What exactly makes my proposal difficult or likely to cause headaches? I honestly don't understand how it can.

I cast Bless. Do I only target two creatures? When they roll their d4, do they have to reduce that by 10%?
I cast Find Familiar. Do I get 90% of a familiar? If so, what does that mean? If not, can I only communicate telepathically when I'm within 90 ft? When if I leave the low-magic zone, do I need to re-cast the spell?
I cast Identify. What 10% of the information do I not get?
I cast Mage Armor. I'm guessing it only lasts for 7.2 hours, but is my AC only set to 12+Dex?
I cast Augury. How do I get 90% of a one-word answer?
I cast Lesser Restoration. Do I totally cure my friend's blindness? Do I reduce the duration to one-tenth normal?
I cast Fireball. Do I roll 7d6, or do I roll 8d6 and multiply by 0.9?
I cast Raise Dead. Is my friend still 10% dead? What does that even mean?

It's not that the rule is impossible to apply, or that there aren't logical answers to all of those questions. But it's going to be more complicated than just saying "everything is 10% lower." You and your players are going to need to review almost every spell they know to make sure you're on the same page if you don't want to get into table arguements.

A cleaner version would be to have a specific whitelist of qualities that can be affected. "Pick one of the spell's elements to reduce by 10%: range, duration*, damage, spell attack bonus, or saving throw DC. If the value being reduced is variable, such as "2d6 fire damage," roll the dice and then apply the penalty."





*Though there are plenty of spells where this won't really matter-- A Blur spell that lasts 10 rounds and one that lasts 9 rounds are functionally identical).

[brian 333]

I cast Bless. Do I only target two creatures? When they roll their d4, do they have to reduce that by 10%?
I cast Find Familiar. Do I get 90% of a familiar? If so, what does that mean? If not, can I only communicate telepathically when I'm within 90 ft? When if I leave the low-magic zone, do I need to re-cast the spell?
I cast Identify. What 10% of the information do I not get?
I cast Mage Armor. I'm guessing it only lasts for 7.2 hours, but is my AC only set to 12+Dex?
I cast Augury. How do I get 90% of a one-word answer?
I cast Lesser Restoration. Do I totally cure my friend's blindness? Do I reduce the duration to one-tenth normal?
I cast Fireball. Do I roll 7d6, or do I roll 8d6 and multiply by 0.9?
I cast Raise Dead. Is my friend still 10% dead? What does that even mean?

It's not that the rule is impossible to apply, or that there aren't logical answers to all of those questions. But it's going to be more complicated than just saying "everything is 10% lower." You and your players are going to need to review almost every spell they know to make sure you're on the same page if you don't want to get into table arguements.

A cleaner version would be to have a specific whitelist of qualities that can be affected. "Pick one of the spell's elements to reduce by 10%: range, duration*, damage, spell attack bonus, or saving throw DC. If the value being reduced is variable, such as "2d6 fire damage," roll the dice and then apply the penalty."





*Though there are plenty of spells where this won't really matter-- A Blur spell that lasts 10 rounds and one that lasts 9 rounds are functionally identical).

Bless: yes and yes
Find familiar: obviously you get a whole familiar, and yes, telepathic range is affected by the zone it and its master occupy. And why would you even think it needs to be recast? A duration of permanent times 90% is still permanent.

In fact, all of the answers are fairly self evident. You can't raise 90% of a person, but how long the person has been dead may be an issue. Losing 1 die of a 7 die fireball is greater than a 10% reduction.

In each case, any time you have 'what does that even mean,' it means it is fairly obvious that that is not affected. And you only have to answer for the spells your caster actually casts. Knowing how you would treat Time Stop is fairly irreletant if your caster can't cast it anyway.

[Kane0]

[1]
A skill roll for casters. Spell DC is 10 plus the level of the spell. If they fail then the spell simply doesn't work, but they don't lose the spell slot.

[2]
Requiring spells be upcast by one level to work.

[3]
-Limiting spells to 3rd level or below.


I'm in favor of [2], that was my first thought when i read the thread title. But i would suggest letting cantrips work as normal so the mages can still do something if they cant pay the costs.

You might want to implement [3] or something similar for rituals and other at-will spells specifically. [1] wouldnt work because they could just keep trying until they succeed.
Perhaps max spell level you can achieve without issue equal to prof bonus or half prof bonus.

[Saelethil]

I have a couple of monster/subclass features that suppress magic. When someone attempts to cast a spell within the feature's range they make an Int. saving throw, if they succeed the spell is cast as normal, if they fail the spell has no effect and the slot is lost because they needed to expend the energy to attempt to cast the spell. For you I think it would make sense for the DC to change depending on how far they are from the ley lines. Tying the saving throw to their casting stat could make sense but I like making intelligence a more important stat in general.

[brian 333]

Without in any way pretending that it's *the correct* answer I've decided to go with:

Low Magic Area
Within this area:
-All spells must be cast using a spell slot one level higher than the required spell slot. Cantrips count as level 0 spells for the purposes of calculation and must be cast using a level 1 spell slot.
-Magic items do not automatically recharge. Magic items which require actions to recharge may still be recharged.
-Magical abilities that do not use spell slots function as normal. Characters must make a DC14 saving check using their spellcasting ability to recover each ability at the end of the appropriate rest period.


The difficulty of the saving throw can be adjusted to the level of the players and/or the paucity of magic in the affected area.

So within such zones a caster PC is effectively two levels lower. A level 3 wizard can only cast level 1 spells and must be level 5 to cast a level 2 spell.

How common/large are such zones? Are there zones where magic is more potent?

[jjordan]

So within such zones a caster PC is effectively two levels lower. A level 3 wizard can only cast level 1 spells and must be level 5 to cast a level 2 spell.

How common/large are such zones? Are there zones where magic is more potent? My setting has a small continent which is extremely geologically active and magic is concentrated in areas which are mostly controlled by sorcerer kings/queens. Unless the tools of the sorcerers are destroyed these areas function as normal magic areas. The low magic deserts are notorious so players have plenty of warning before they venture into these areas and while there are some worthwhile adventures in these areas players are not forced to venture into them for main plot purposes.

[Old Harry MTX]

I would probably change it this way:

Low Magic Area
Within this area:
-Spellslots count as 1 level lower than normal. 1st level slots become 0 level, and can be used to cast cantrips. A cantrip can still be cast without expending spell slots as if the caster has half its overall level (rounded up).
-Magical features and magic items regain half the usual number of charges (minimum of one).


My setting has a small continent which is extremely geologically active and magic is concentrated in areas which are mostly controlled by sorcerer kings/queens. Unless the tools of the sorcerers are destroyed these areas function as normal magic areas. The low magic deserts are notorious so players have plenty of warning before they venture into these areas and while there are some worthwhile adventures in these areas players are not forced to venture into them for main plot purposes.

This way it shouldn't be a problem, i was afraid that the low-magic areas where created by spells similar to anti-magic field, usable by anyone, that probably would be more critical.