Post Tasha's Dart Build?

[Yakmala]

I played a dart build way back in 2e and it was highly effective. I haven't tried it yet in 5th edition, but Tasha's has gotten me thinking about it again. Time to make a Plumbata Master!

This character would be used in AL, so there are restrictions, such as no UA material and only Forgotten Realms classes/races. But also advantages, such as the ability to trade for items of equal rarity.

Darts, while low damage, are somewhat unique in being both Thrown and Ranged. This means we can combine things we wouldn't ordinarily combine such as Strength and Sharpshooter.

After debating different options, such as a Kensei or Samurai, I'm leaning towards Battle Master, specifically to use the new Maneuver option Quick Toss.

Here's what I'm thinking. Please feel free to chime in with suggestions and improvements:


Variant Human: This build is going to want a lot of feats, so getting a bonus feat helps.
Main Class: Battle Master: Fighter = more attacks and more ASI's and an extra dart attack via Quick Toss. Archery Fighting Style for the +2 to hit with ranged weapons.
Multiclass Dip: 2 Levels of Artificer to pick up Returning Weapon. Multiple attacks each turn with a single magical dart while holding a shield.
Feat 1: Sharpshooter: for that sweet -5/+10 and to extend short range to 60'
Feat 2: Xbow Expert: So that we can use darts in melee without disadvantage.
Feat 3: Fighting Initiate: Thrown Weapons fighting style for the extra damage.
Magic Items: As this is Adventurer's League and I have the ability to use trades and DM rewards to give the character magic items, they will be getting the best Strength items I can provide them as they go up in Tiers, starting with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Belt of Hill Giant Strength and finally, once they gain a Very Rare through adventuring, a Belt of Fire Giant Strength.



So, by the time we get to level 13 (Battle Master 11, Artificer 2) we are going to be making 4 dart attacks per round (3 + 1 from Quick Toss). Assuming a Belt of Fire Giant Strength (which one of my other characters acquired from CCC-ALMOG-03 TALES03-01 Claws of Fury), we're looking at +10 to hit (+15, -5 for SS) and 1d4+20 damage (+7. +10, +2, +1) per dart. The bonus action Quick Toss dart does an additional D10. So, if all four darts hit, that's 4d4 + 80 + 1D10 or around 95 damage per round. Not bad for a weapon that costs 5cp and weighs 1/4th of a pound.

Starting stats will likely emphasize Con and Dex. Strength will kick in once he gets to trade for the gauntlets, but we want to keep Dexterity high for those times in mid/late game when we run into anti-magic fields or other shenanigans that can neutralize magic items. Resilient Wisdom will be a mid to late level pickup because it's never a bad thing to have.

So... Any thoughts on how to modify or improve this setup?

[RogueJK]

How about an Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 4 or 5/Battlemaster Fighter X?

Ancestral Protectors severely inhibits one enemy per turn from hurting any of your allies. Basically just a dart variant of the dagger-throwing AG kiting build, incentivizing enemies to attack only you, but yet keeping yourself out of range with your mobility and ranged attacks.

With the Thrown Weapon fighting style, you don't need a Returning Weapon... just a healthy supply of darts in a quiver. (A couple dozen should cover any combat, and just recover them after battle.)

[strangebloke]

I think it looks good, though I'm unclear on how the rules for drawing weapons work here as I've always ignored those rules personally.


How about an Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 3/Battlemaster Fighter X?

Rage gives you a damage bonus of +2 to each dart thrown using STR (which stacks with the +2 from Thrown Weapon fighting style), plus some damage resistance, and Ancestral Protectors severely inhibits one enemy per turn from hurting any of your allies. Basically just a dart variant of the dagger-throwing AG kiting build, incentivizing enemies to attack only you, but yet keeping yourself out of range with your mobility and ranged attacks.

With the Thrown Weapon fighting style, you don't need a Returning Weapon... just a healthy supply of darts in a quiver. (A couple dozen should cover any combat, and just recover them after battle.)

Rage unfortunately doesn't work with thrown weapon for some reason.

The reason for needing a returning dart is that otherwise you can't deal good damage against the large numbers of mid and high level enemies who have resistance against nonmagical attacks AND because you can do things with one weapon.

[ff7hero]

I think it looks good, though I'm unclear on how the rules for drawing weapons work here as I've always ignored those rules personally.
<snip>
The reason for needing a returning dart is that otherwise you can't deal good damage against the large numbers of mid and high level enemies who have resistance against nonmagical attacks AND because you can do things with one weapon.

The returning dart also solves the drawing "problem," actually.

[strangebloke]

The returning dart also solves the drawing "problem," actually.

oh I know, I'm just unclear if the build works at all after level 5 without the dart.

[Mitchellnotes]

Soul knife was surfaced in another thread. Combined with battle master or psi warrior, both thrown weapon master and dueling, it looks like it could be very effective.

Psi warrior gives 2×prof (+1/short rest) die (which is a different pool than the soul knifes doe) that you can use to add +d6+int to an attack. That means you'd do d6+dex+4+d6+int+sneak attack. At level 7, assuming a 4/3 split and 16 int/dex, that's 4d6+10 +d4+d6+10 damage for (40 total?). Not bad.

Its not specifically darts, but a different option. If sticking with darts, some combination of artificier/fighter seems like the best route to go.

[sambojin]

Maybe a level of War Cleric (a couple of extra bonus attacks a day if you run out of superiority die depending on your Wis score)? Between that and Bless for to-hit and saves, it's not too bad of a package. Could Shield of Faith if you're really hurting for AC instead of saves, but you won't be. Just stick the Cleric level in when you want, even at the end, it's not that important, but can give you some longer term options of what to do if you're going to lvl20 as well.

Basically it's just more things to do with your concentration, because Artificer gives you some, this gives you more, and works with Sharpshooter nicely. 3 Blesses a day can often do more for you and the party because it's stat independent than 2 Faerie Fires would, slot and encounter type and damage-wise. You've got Absorb Elements and good AC for damage mitigation anyway.

Can't think of much else easily, the build you listed looks pretty good.

[Kane0]

Variant Human: This build is going to want a lot of feats, so getting a bonus feat helps.
Main Class: Battle Master: Fighter = more attacks and more ASI's and an extra dart attack via Quick Toss. Archery Fighting Style for the +2 to hit with ranged weapons.
Multiclass Dip: 2 Levels of Artificer to pick up Returning Weapon. Multiple attacks each turn with a single magical dart while holding a shield.
Feat 1: Sharpshooter: for that sweet -5/+10 and to extend short range to 60'
Feat 2: Xbow Expert: So that we can use darts in melee without disadvantage.
Feat 3: Fighting Initiate: Thrown Weapons fighting style for the extra damage.
Magic Items: As this is Adventurer's League and I have the ability to use trades and DM rewards to give the character magic items, they will be getting the best Strength items I can provide them as they go up in Tiers, starting with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Belt of Hill Giant Strength and finally, once they gain a Very Rare through adventuring, a Belt of Fire Giant Strength.



So... Any thoughts on how to modify or improve this setup?

- I wouldnt bother with xbow expert since youre not getting 2/3 of its benefits and that last one is for situations you dont want to be in in the first place. I'd pick up fey touched or mobile for basically the same benefit or martial adept to expand on your battlemaster options (which again could do the same thing).
Magic initiate, alert, resilient, lucky and more are other options all offering more for you than CBE IMO.

- beware relying on returning weapon as infusions cant be used on magic items. If you happen to find or trade for a magic dart then it cant also be infused

At later levels some levels into ranger might not be a bad option, you get hunters mark, another style (like thrown), all the sweet tashas stuff and even something like hunter's horde breaker or colossus slayer which dont further clutter your bonus action.

[ff7hero]

oh I know, I'm just unclear if the build works at all after level 5 without the dart.

It would need the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style from Tasha's without the Returning Dart. There might be a third option, but I'm not aware of it and I have a bit of an on-again/off-again relationship with Dart builds.

[Dork_Forge]

My inclination would primarily be a Kensei chassis, dipping Fighter with maybe V. Human to nab both Dueling and Thrown Weapon.

The Dart die itself would increase and be Dex + 4 with no drawing issues, Kensei can at will add d4s or if Ki is available and Sharpshooter in play you can use the optional Monk ability to add accuracy and then bonus action throw on top of that. You'd be able to switch-hit seamlessly, the at will damage would be fairly high and I think it'd be fun. Kensei also makes sure you're not caught out on resistances.

I'd avoid Psi Warrior personally unless you were leveraging the Int with Battle Smith.

[ff7hero]

My inclination would primarily be a Kensei chassis, dipping Fighter with maybe V. Human to nab both Dueling and Thrown Weapon.

The Dart die itself would increase and be Dex + 4 with no drawing issues, Kensei can at will add d4s or if Ki is available and Sharpshooter in play you can use the optional Monk ability to add accuracy and then bonus action throw on top of that. You'd be able to switch-hit seamlessly, the at will damage would be fairly high and I think it'd be fun. Kensei also makes sure you're not caught out on resistances.

I'd avoid Psi Warrior personally unless you were leveraging the Int with Battle Smith.

I actually like this quite a lot. I hadn't thought about upgrading the Dart damage via Martial Arts. Although you lose the ability to use a shield which is Dart's main advantage over Hand X-Bow. Also I wouldn't get Dueling unless I had 3 Fighting Styles since I think Archery and Thrown Weapon are more important than Dueling.

It has the added bonus of letting you either Step of the Wind or just punch when in Melee. Stun fishing and then backing up to spam Sharpshooter Darts (with a Ki Empowered Strike BA Dart) seems like a good way to discourage fools from getting up in your face.

[Dork_Forge]

I actually like this quite a lot. I hadn't thought about upgrading the Dart damage via Martial Arts. Although you lose the ability to use a shield which is Dart's main advantage over Hand X-Bow. Also I wouldn't get Dueling unless I had 3 Fighting Styles since I think Archery and Thrown Weapon are more important than Dueling.

It has the added bonus of letting you either Step of the Wind or just punch when in Melee. Stun fishing and then backing up to spam Sharpshooter Darts (with a Ki Empowered Strike BA Dart) seems like a good way to discourage fools from getting up in your face.

Rereading it I guess Dueling wouldn't apply to darrts just thrown daggers, ah well.

If you stun fish on that build you'd also get a +2 AC from the Kensei and Deft Strike can make crits a little more meaningful, something that's normally missing on SS builds.

[Yakmala]

- I wouldnt bother with xbow expert since youre not getting 2/3 of its benefits and that last one is for situations you dont want to be in in the first place. I'd pick up fey touched or mobile for basically the same benefit or martial adept to expand on your battlemaster options (which again could do the same thing).
Magic initiate, alert, resilient, lucky and more are other options all offering more for you than CBE IMO.

- beware relying on returning weapon as infusions cant be used on magic items. If you happen to find or trade for a magic dart then it cant also be infused.

While Xbow Expert is not strictly required, it does give some advantages. While this build likes to fight from range, it's also a fighter with a shield, and if the dart master needs to be the party tank, Xbow Expert allows them to do so without disadvantage. In fact, if you lead off with a trip attack and fight at melee range, you can peg the target anywhere from 3-6 additional times with advantage.

And while it's true that the infusion only works on a non-magic dart, when you combine archery fighting style, thrown weapons fighting style and the infusion, you get the equivalent of a +3/+3 weapon, one that only cost you 5cp to get your hands on.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Heck, at that point you should ask your DM how much it'd cost to make an adamantine dart. Just imagine throwing it through walls and giving zero craps about item hardness.

[Gignere]

While Xbow Expert is not strictly required, it does give some advantages. While this build likes to fight from range, it's also a fighter with a shield, and if the dart master needs to be the party tank, Xbow Expert allows them to do so without disadvantage. In fact, if you lead off with a trip attack and fight at melee range, you can peg the target anywhere from 3-6 additional times with advantage.

And while it's true that the infusion only works on a non-magic dart, when you combine archery fighting style, thrown weapons fighting style and the infusion, you get the equivalent of a +3/+3 weapon, one that only cost you 5cp to get your hands on.

If all you want is throwing in melee, you should consider the gunner feat at least it gives you +1 dex which can marginally benefit you. So instead of missing 2/3rd of a feat you’re only missing 1/3rd of a feat.

[Yakmala]

If all you want is throwing in melee, you should consider the gunner feat at least it gives you +1 dex which can marginally benefit you. So instead of missing 2/3rd of a feat you’re only missing 1/3rd of a feat.

That is an excellent idea.

[Hairfish]

I think I'd build on this by taking Tavern Brawler and chucking anything I can get my hands on at enemies. Probably a d4 damage die at minimum and the same range for smaller items.

"Okay, you've successfully pelted the dragon with four items from its hoard. How much damage did you do?"

rolls 4d4 "78 bludgeoning."

"I'm going to drop a rock on your character."

"I throw the rock at the dragon."

[Joe the Rat]

I think I'd build on this by taking Tavern Brawler and chucking anything I can get my hands on at enemies. Probably a d4 damage die at minimum and the same range for smaller items.

"Okay, you've successfully pelted the dragon with four items from its hoard. How much damage did you do?"

rolls 4d4 "78 bludgeoning."

"I'm going to drop a rock on your character."

"I throw the rock at the dragon."
And This is why you look at kensei builds - so you can throw that rock at the dragon as a reaction.

[LordShade]

Can you Grung in AL? I think Grungs get a free poison rider on piercing weapon attacks. Thematically appropriate too, with poison dart frogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_dart_frog) and all.

[Rukelnikov]

Darts are... a complicated matter.

They are a ranged weapon, so we can make use of Archery Style and SS.

They are a thrown weapon, so we can benefit from the Thrown Weapon Style's +2 Damage.

They are a finnesse weapon, so we can use either Dex or Str.

So what is it that sets them appart? They are the only ranged weapon that can be used with Str

As usual, the problem with Thrown weapons is how are getting enough of them on hand to make all of our Attacks. The issue with the fighting style is that we will mostly be throwing non-magical weapons, this can be solved by going Kensei so any darts we throw count as magical, as noted above this would also increase the damage die of our darts a bit, but we still wouldn't be benefiting from actually having a magic weapon (ie +x att & dam or w/e), note that we couldn't really make use of Kensei's lvl 11 feature since the bonus only applies to one weapon, which we would promptly throw away.

Going for an Artificer's returning weapon is a bit better since we at least have a +1 Weapon, and could use our first fighting style (however we acquire it) in Archery, for a net benefit of +3/-1 (or +3/-4 considering 1d10 damage for the kensei), which sounds like a pretty good trade. The downside is having to invest in Int. We could go for an all in artificer darter tank, going Battlesmith, taking Enhanced Defense and making use of our pet.

The problem here is... why are we using Darts exactly? If we are not making use of the Str on a ranged weapon part, then we could just go with a hand crossbow and take Repeating Shot, it deals marginally more damage, and everything else is the same (or better, what happens if an enemy Monk catches our Returning Dart, will it come back or not? My ruling would be no). We could be up 1 point of damage if we take the Throwing Style, but hardly seems worth it.

I've tried to make this build work multiple times, but every build I come up with tends to look like it would be better if I just switched weapons.

[Hairfish]

I've tried to make this build work multiple times, but every build I come up with tends to look like it would be better if I just switched weapons.


Sometimes your PC just has to cosplay as Danny Trejo in Desperado.

[Rukelnikov]

Sometimes your PC just has to cosplay as Danny Trejo in Desperado.

A Vhuman Kensei6/Ftr1/Rgr2 (SS, +2 Dex, Throwing, Archery) could be a viable Navajas :P

[Dork_Forge]

Darts are... a complicated matter.

They are a ranged weapon, so we can make use of Archery Style and SS.

They are a thrown weapon, so we can benefit from the Thrown Weapon Style's +2 Damage.

They are a finnesse weapon, so we can use either Dex or Str.

So what is it that sets them appart? They are the only ranged weapon that can be used with Str

As usual, the problem with Thrown weapons is how are getting enough of them on hand to make all of our Attacks. The issue with the fighting style is that we will mostly be throwing non-magical weapons, this can be solved by going Kensei so any darts we throw count as magical, as noted above this would also increase the damage die of our darts a bit, but we still wouldn't be benefiting from actually having a magic weapon (ie +x att & dam or w/e), note that we couldn't really make use of Kensei's lvl 11 feature since the bonus only applies to one weapon, which we would promptly throw away.

Going for an Artificer's returning weapon is a bit better since we at least have a +1 Weapon, and could use our first fighting style (however we acquire it) in Archery, for a net benefit of +3/-1 (or +3/-4 considering 1d10 damage for the kensei), which sounds like a pretty good trade. The downside is having to invest in Int. We could go for an all in artificer darter tank, going Battlesmith, taking Enhanced Defense and making use of our pet.

The problem here is... why are we using Darts exactly? If we are not making use of the Str on a ranged weapon part, then we could just go with a hand crossbow and take Repeating Shot, it deals marginally more damage, and everything else is the same (or better, what happens if an enemy Monk catches our Returning Dart, will it come back or not? My ruling would be no). We could be up 1 point of damage if we take the Throwing Style, but hardly seems worth it.

I've tried to make this build work multiple times, but every build I come up with tends to look like it would be better if I just switched weapons.

The why is because it's cool, decisions don't have to be driven by pure mechanical effectiveness, the game would be very boring if that were the case.

Battle Smith is the most plug'n'play if you don't want to think about it and really want a +1 weapon, if you want to push the envelop then a crazy concoction that looks like:

-Kensei 6 (V. Human- Fighting Initiate either Thrown or Archery, I'd take Thrown personally)

-Fighter 1 (the style you didn't take in step one)

-Artificer 2 (Returning Weapon)

That's most of the played levels, but if you go beyond that then taking Monk to 8th or 11th, your preference, and Fighter to 4th. You end up with a decent amount of Ki for bumping your accuracy (and triggering the BA attack), a self created +1 weapon, and between Kensei and Fighter the ability to nova fairly decently depending on subclass choice.

Take SS at some point if wanted, for the distance primarily.

It's better than a hand crossbow immediately for damage if you take thrown weapon as a style.

[Cicciograna]

I have nothing meaningful to add to the thread, but I feel that fluffwise we are zeroing on Yondu's Whistle Arrow, and that is great.

[Mitchellnotes]

Just going to add that if you pick up darts with sharpshooter, might as well hold onto a net. If you end up playing as a midrange skidmisher, there may be some good netting opportunities.

[Segev]

It is worth noting that with the two fighting styles, you essentially have made every dart a +2 weapon. Any magical darts you do pick up stack with this. If your party mage has nothing better to do with his familiar, or you have a familiar from a feat or well-trained animal pets or a homunculus, you can have them gather and raturn your magical darts - including any affected by Sharpen the Blade - to you. So you could use each magical dart at least once per round.

[Rukelnikov]

Well, that's a funny idea tbh

[Yakmala]

It is worth noting that with the two fighting styles, you essentially have made every dart a +2 weapon. Any magical darts you do pick up stack with this. If your party mage has nothing better to do with his familiar, or you have a familiar from a feat or well-trained animal pets or a homunculus, you can have them gather and raturn your magical darts - including any affected by Sharpen the Blade - to you. So you could use each magical dart at least once per round.

I was assuming I'd never encounter a magic dart, as in all the years I've played 5e, I've yet to see one.

That being said, this combo essentially turns a 5 copper piece normal dart into a +3/+3 weapon.

Accuracy: +2 from archery fighting style, +1 from returning weapon (and also counts as magical)
Damage: +2 from thrown weapon style, +1 from returning weapon

[Dork_Forge]

I was assuming I'd never encounter a magic dart, as in all the years I've played 5e, I've yet to see one.

That being said, this combo essentially turns a 5 copper piece normal dart into a +3/+3 weapon.

Accuracy: +2 from archery fighting style, +1 from returning weapon (and also counts as magical)
Damage: +2 from thrown weapon style, +1 from returning weapon

For what it's worth I'd probably hold a dagger in the offhand, it enables opportunity attacks and dealing with enemies that close nicely.

[Segev]

I was assuming I'd never encounter a magic dart, as in all the years I've played 5e, I've yet to see one.

That being said, this combo essentially turns a 5 copper piece normal dart into a +3/+3 weapon.

Accuracy: +2 from archery fighting style, +1 from returning weapon (and also counts as magical)
Damage: +2 from thrown weapon style, +1 from returning weapon

Technically 5e doesn't do the "plus-equivalent" thing, but I do get what you mean. That said, the "returning" angle isn't nearly as important if you're just throwing regular darts. They're cheap.

As for getting magical ones, "+1 weapon" is generic and can be anything; if you're playing a dart-master, your DM will almost certainly include a magical dart at some point. And if not, you could always go looking for one, or commission one or more be made, or even make them, yourself.

[Yakmala]

Technically 5e doesn't do the "plus-equivalent" thing, but I do get what you mean. That said, the "returning" angle isn't nearly as important if you're just throwing regular darts. They're cheap.

As for getting magical ones, "+1 weapon" is generic and can be anything; if you're playing a dart-master, your DM will almost certainly include a magical dart at some point. And if not, you could always go looking for one, or commission one or more be made, or even make them, yourself.

Getting one magical dart, perhaps. But by Battle Master Level 11, you are tossing four darts a round (3 attacks + bonus action Quick Toss maneuver), seven darts if you use Action Surge. So unless you discover a warehouse full of magical darts, the two levels of Artificer for Returning Weapon allow you to make all of those attacks with the same singular magical (infused) dart.

[Naanomi]

It isn't really optimized, but we have a player trying a Half-Orc dart thrower using Champion. Get three fighting styles (dual weapon, throwing, archery I think) and Piercer, throw things at people

[Rukelnikov]

For what it's worth I'd probably hold a dagger in the offhand, it enables opportunity attacks and dealing with enemies that close nicely.

Well, if you have the Thrown Weapon style, you only need to carry a dagger, since it has the thrown property you can draw it as part of the attack (of opportunity).

[Dork_Forge]

Well, if you have the Thrown Weapon style, you only need to carry a dagger, since it has the thrown property you can draw it as part of the attack (of opportunity).

That's a good point, I misremembered the style as requiring you actually throw it.

Dart builds are starting to sound real fun...

[Gurgeh]

Might as well make the backup weapon a handaxe, it's got a better damage die than daggers and is still dirt cheap.

[Melphizard]

I don't think the backup weapon is necessarily the most optimal play here. Assuming Gunner + Gauntlets of Ogre Power (mentioned in the original post) then you could be wearing plate with a shield for a 20 AC before any +1 stuff. As a fighter they're modestly tanky enough to manage being a front-liner with their dart, especially since it returns. This is sorta similar to some Artificer/Fighter Repeating Shots builds I've seen before where they use Repeating Shot to wield a hand crossbow with a shield. The build's damage also comes from Sharpshooter + Thrown Weapon shenanigans so a dagger opportunity attack wouldn't be of much help aside from losing a reaction.

[redsonja]

Coby over at D&D Optimized has a pretty great darts and net build:

He calls it The Needler. I’m not yet allowed to post links, but here is the YouTube link minus the http

://youtu.be/oFN0lgnuEto