No magic weapons vs. Immune to non-magical BPS: tactics

[FrancisBean]

My 3rd-level group (I'm the DM) has a side-quest upcoming where they'll face a construct(*) which is immune to non-magical BPS. The group has a Paladin, Swashbuckler, Sorceress, and a Walrock Witch(†). Given a chance to choose their own first magic items, not one of the martials chose a magic weapon. They'll get full advance warning on what they'll be facing, and it's a side-quest they can skip anyway.

So what sort of tactics still work here? The Sorceress will be the major damage dealer. The Witch uses mostly saving-throw spells, but unfortunately the construct has magic resistance. Paladin Smite still works even if the base weapon damage doesn't apply. The Swashbuckler actually carries and sometimes uses a net. This particular construct isn't immune to fire, so torches or oil can also work. Obviously grapples and shoves are still in play.

I expect a clever group of players to have no problem overcoming the technical challenge, but the theoretical exercise has me interested. What other tactics come out in this sort of situation? How would clever players deal with it? The goal seems to be: prevent the construct from killing the sorceress; mitigate the construct damaging the rest of the party; pin it down so it can't escape.

(*) Think in terms of an Iron Cobra. Because it's an Iron Cobra :smallwink:. At least for now, if I don't change it before session.

(†) EDIT: No, that's not a typo. Walrock is one of the better 3rd-party publishers. It's a Witch, not a typo for Warlock. And unfortunately for the group, most of the combat schtick for the class is based on saving throw spells with various riders if the target fails a save. It's an easy automatic misread, since it looks like a typo to me, too!

[stoutstien]

The key is the Immunity to B/P/S is limited to attacks so anything based on a save would still work as would tossing it off a high point. It's also oddly susceptible to prone/grapple tactics.

[Sigreid]

This is kind of the definition of KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Beyond that, they've clarified that it won't stop damage from falling, so forcing it into a pit could work. So could restraining it and waiting for it to starve to death.

[FrancisBean]

This is kind of the definition of KILL IT WITH FIRE.
Given that the Sorceress is a dedicated fire build, that's what I'm expecting.


Beyond that, they've clarified that it won't stop damage from falling, so forcing it into a pit could work. So could restraining it and waiting for it to starve to death.
Really? I believe you, but I haven't seen that. Is it in Errata or Sage Advice? Or one of the many tweets I generally treat with extreme skepticism?

Side note: Construct. Starvation doesn't apply.

[Catullus64]

Really? I believe you, but I haven't seen that. Is it in Errata or Sage Advice? Or one of the many tweets I generally treat with extreme skepticism?


The key is in the wording; any creature with the kind of immunity you describe will say "Bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks."

[FrancisBean]

The key is in the wording; any creature with the kind of immunity you describe will say "Bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks."

Ah, yes. That clarifies completely. Nice catch -- I'd missed that implication. Which, since it might come up, is important here!

[Sigreid]

Side note: Construct. Starvation doesn't apply.

Still leaves the option of permanently confining it. I mean, dead/destroyed is nice and all, but buried deep and forgotten where it can't get out can solve the issue for generations, possibly millennia.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Still leaves the option of permanently confining it. I mean, dead/destroyed is nice and all, but buried deep and forgotten where it can't get out can solve the issue for generations, possibly millennia.

Yes. What is the quest objective / encounter victory condition?

[Kane0]

My 3rd-level group (I'm the DM) has a side-quest upcoming where they'll face a construct(*) which is immune to non-magical BPS. The group has a Paladin, Swashbuckler, Sorceress, and a Walrock Witch. Given a chance to choose their own first magic items, not one of the martials chose a magic weapon. They'll get full advance warning on what they'll be facing, and it's a side-quest they can skip anyway.

So what sort of tactics still work here? The Sorceress will be the major damage dealer. The Witch uses mostly saving-throw spells, but unfortunately the construct has magic resistance. Paladin Smite still works even if the base weapon damage doesn't apply. The Swashbuckler actually carries and sometimes uses a net. This particular construct isn't immune to fire, so torches or oil can also work. Obviously grapples and shoves are still in play.

I expect a clever group of players to have no problem overcoming the technical challenge, but the theoretical exercise has me interested. What other tactics come out in this sort of situation? How would clever players deal with it? The goal seems to be: prevent the construct from killing the sorceress; mitigate the construct damaging the rest of the party; pin it down so it can't escape.

(*) Think in terms of an Iron Cobra. Because it's an Iron Cobra :smallwink:. At least for now, if I don't change it before session.

Typically I would say grappling for fall damage or drowning, but burning and poisoning could also be options. Two of those won't apply with a construct.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Whats the Paladin's subclass?

[Kane0]

Do the sorcerer or warlock have illusions? Magic resistance applies to saves and not checks, so it wouldnt help its investigation if its say placed inside an illusory wicker basket.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Grapple, trip and dodge is a great tactics is the party casters use non range attacks spells(or if they have CBE to attack within 5 ft of a target without disadvantage).

If they use range attacks than remove the trip.
Edit: look at the one below me, I forgot about oil.
Buy oil, trow put oil under the constract, light it on fire, try to put oil on the constract for more damage and grapple it so it is in the fire.

The paladin should put on himself shield of faith and use the rogue help grapple as the rouge make sure the constract in oiled.

Alchemist fire and are are also your friends.
The rogue can sneak attack with those as they act as improvised weapon and you do a range attack with them which means as I see it they are improvised ranged weapon who are ranged weapons.
(That is how I read it)

What is the party levels?
Do they have the spell magic weapon?
Can the rogue use Panache as a ready action before the constract acts?
Edit: just saw the party is level 3.

Can the paladin use spells that do damage like divine favour but it will by a small amount of damage.
If they have a shadow blade and a way to let other cast it(like a ring of spell storing) it should also work.


Edit, just saw the party is level 3

Edit:
If you allow a grapple or a shove as part of an opportunity attack the rogue and paladin should position themselves in a way that if the constract move he will get attacked by one of them, allowing them to stop him in the fire.

[Zalabim]

Against a cobra, a protection from poison spell would mitigate a lot of the threat.

Close to this CR, the Flesh Golem seems designed to be fought with torches and oil. Mummies too, even though they're only resistant.

[Kane0]

Paladin smite is radiant damage

[Unoriginal]

Close to this CR, the Flesh Golem seems designed to be fought with torches and oil.

Don't forget pitchforks.

[Sigreid]

If I were a villager, I'd either be looking at a pit trap or tricking it into a building that could be sealed and set on fire. Flesh golems aren't that smart, shouldn't be hard.

[RogueJK]

A 3rd level Paladin can still contribute some melee damage, using Divine Favor and Divine Smite, both of which add Radiant damage.

Depending on Paladin subclass, they may have other options: They could have additional spell damage options, like Conquest's Armor of Agathys, Glory's Guiding Bolt, or Oathbreaker's Inflict Wounds. Or a Devotion Paladin could use their Channel Divinity to make their weapon magical.

And if they took the Blessed Warrior fighting style, they could have access to a damage cantrip like Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead too, although Magic Resistance will make the construct more likely to succeed on the save.


The Swashbuckler is trickier. They're going to be relegated to stuff like trying restrain it with their net, or damaging it with some sort of nonmagical equipment like burning oil/acid/alchemist fire, or using the Help action to give the Paladin or Sorcerer Advantage on their attack roll. Help Action + Cunning Action Disengage would be a good option to assist their teammates without unnecessarily exposing themselves.

[CapnWildefyr]

The key is in the wording; any creature with the kind of immunity you describe will say "Bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks."

If that's what is says, that's what it means, but boy I've always found that cheesy, I mean, what's an attack? If you slip off a cliff you take damage, but if I push you does that count as an attack? :smallannoyed: Wish they had thought more deeply and worded it better. Sorry, not trying to get the thread derailed... this one's been discussed at length often enough... getting back on track:

Does it rust? Seal it in a watery tomb. (Or is that how you make a rust monster? :smallwink:)

Oh yeah, don't forget acid and smokepowder (if available). Blowing it to tiny pieces isn't BPS damage. Technically, neither is tearing it in half (if you can catch it) using winches. Restrain it with chains then drop it into a volcano (only works if one is nearby of course). Speaking of rust monsters, if one's for sale... or known to be somewhere it can be captured... that would do it too.

What if you capture it and sell the thing?

[FrancisBean]

Yes. What is the quest objective / encounter victory condition?
In other words, can they "win" without destroying it? Yes. In fact, they get a bonus if they can capture the thing intact, but that's considered the "hard" victory condition. The construct is guarding a treasure the group will have to dig up (too long to dash and grab), but the construct also belongs to the guy giving the quest. He doesn't have the control words, is the problem.

Whats the Paladin's subclass?
Ancients. Devotion would have been a game-changer, nice catch!
Edit:Ensnaring Smite could be a good option, but it's a Strength Save and Magic Resistance applies.

Do the sorcerer or warlock have illusions? Magic resistance applies to saves and not checks, so it wouldnt help its investigation if its say placed inside an illusory wicker basket.
Note: It's not a warlock. It's a Walrock Witch. (Walrock is one of the better 3rd party publishers.) Unfortunately for the group, most of the Witch's attacking spells are save-based. Toll the Dead is usually her primary spell attack.

Grapple, trip and dodge is a great tactics is the party casters use non range attacks spells(or if they have CBE to attack within 5 ft of a target without disadvantage).

If they use range attacks than remove the trip.
Edit: look at the one below me, I forgot about oil.
Buy oil, trow put oil under the constract, light it on fire, try to put oil on the constract for more damage and grapple it so it is in the fire.

The paladin should put on himself shield of faith and use the rogue help grapple as the rouge make sure the constract in oiled.

That's the way I'd approach it, if I were a player. It does mean the Paladin (who is the tank of the group) should husband his hit points carefully, because he'll need them for this phase of the quest. I'd also try to buy an anti-toxin vial for the Paladin, just to stack the deck.

The rogue can sneak attack with those as they act as improvised weapon and you do a range attack with them which means as I see it they are improvised ranged weapon who are ranged weapons.
(That is how I read it)

A careful reading of the rules on Oil, Improvised Weapons, and Sneak Attack suggests that Sneak Attack would apply; but that it would be of the damage type assigned to the improvised weapon by the DM. In this case, throwing the flask would be 1d4 Bludgeoning, non-magical. Igniting the fire is a separate damage. Absurdly, a torch explicitly deals 1pt of fire damage, so if Sneak Attack applied it would work -- except that I'd rule that a torch is most similar to a club, and thus not a finesse weapon. Throwing a torch to try to apply Sneak Attack falls back under the improvised weapons rules, where I'd have a difficult DM's judgement call to make on the damage type. I hate it when a crucial ruling is left to discretion, it's a good way to stir up bad feelings for the players.

I'm very glad you brought that up. It'll be good for me to have those particular rules at my fingertips if it comes up.


If you allow a grapple or a shove as part of an opportunity attack the rogue and paladin should position themselves in a way that if the constract move he will get attacked by one of them, allowing them to stop him in the fire.
That's straight-up RAW, so it's an option, yes. Not a common tactic, but then, this isn't a common situation!

Against a cobra, a protection from poison spell would mitigate a lot of the threat.

Close to this CR, the Flesh Golem seems designed to be fought with torches and oil. Mummies too, even though they're only resistant.
They don't have the spell, but they do have the means to acquire anti-toxin. We'll see if they think of it. Using anti-toxin is so rare that it'd be nice to see it come up.

[RogueJK]

They don't have the spell, but they do have the means to acquire anti-toxin. We'll see if they think of it. Using anti-toxin is so rare that it'd be nice to see it come up.

The Paladin can neutralize poison with 5 points of Lay on Hands. A 3rd level Paladin could do that up to 3 times, if needed.

[MaxWilson]

My 3rd-level group (I'm the DM) has a side-quest upcoming where they'll face a construct(*) which is immune to non-magical BPS. The group has a Paladin, Swashbuckler, Sorceress, and a Walrock Witch. Given a chance to choose their own first magic items, not one of the martials chose a magic weapon. They'll get full advance warning on what they'll be facing, and it's a side-quest they can skip anyway.

So what sort of tactics still work here? The Sorceress will be the major damage dealer. The Witch uses mostly saving-throw spells, but unfortunately the construct has magic resistance. Paladin Smite still works even if the base weapon damage doesn't apply. The Swashbuckler actually carries and sometimes uses a net. This particular construct isn't immune to fire, so torches or oil can also work. Obviously grapples and shoves are still in play.

I expect a clever group of players to have no problem overcoming the technical challenge, but the theoretical exercise has me interested. What other tactics come out in this sort of situation? How would clever players deal with it? The goal seems to be: prevent the construct from killing the sorceress; mitigate the construct damaging the rest of the party; pin it down so it can't escape.

(*) Think in terms of an Iron Cobra. Because it's an Iron Cobra :smallwink:. At least for now, if I don't change it before session.

One easy tactic: the Paladin can grapple it and hold it in place, while Dodging, to give the Sorceress and Warlock plenty of time to cantrip it to death. It should roughly double the ratio of damage dealt to damage taken, which is sort of like doubling DPR but with more rolling.

Technically nets are cumulative with grappling, so the paladin can do this at the same time as the Swashbuckler uses the net. I chose the paladin because imposing disadvantage is better if your base AC is already high.

Others have mentioned oil flask + fire for some extra damage each round.

Depending on the nature of the construct it may also make sense to use DMG Disarm.

Basically the Paladin and Swashbuckler are there to buy time for the squishies to do damage with spells, kind of like any number of action movie scenes (only with wizards = techies and spells = hacking or tech MacGuffin).

[FrancisBean]

The Paladin can neutralize poison with 5 points of Lay on Hands. A 3rd level Paladin could do that up to 3 times, if needed.

Counter-intuitively, that doesn't help at all here. The poison effects are either instant (additional damage) or pre-empt the victim's next turn. (The Poisoned condition doesn't come into play.) Since the Paladin is the tank and is likely to be the one taking the hit, there's no chance to do a Lay on Hands for himself. The problem needs a proactive, not reactive, defense.

I've never liked D&D's poison handling in any edition from AD&D and BECMI to 5e. If I thought I could write a better system, I would. Poison just tends not to work well in fantasy role-play except as an occasional McGuffin. ("Quest for these ingredients for the antidote or the Princess dies in 13 days!")

[Reach Weapon]

A careful reading of the rules on Oil, Improvised Weapons, and Sneak Attack suggests that Sneak Attack would apply; but that it would be of the damage type assigned to the improvised weapon by the DM. In this case, throwing the flask would be 1d4 Bludgeoning, non-magical. Igniting the fire is a separate damage. Absurdly, a torch explicitly deals 1pt of fire damage, so if Sneak Attack applied it would work -- except that I'd rule that a torch is most similar to a club, and thus not a finesse weapon. Throwing a torch to try to apply Sneak Attack falls back under the improvised weapons rules, where I'd have a difficult DM's judgement call to make on the damage type. I hate it when a crucial ruling is left to discretion, it's a good way to stir up bad feelings for the players.
What's the highest DC one could justify for converting regular old arrows into mundane flame arrows? What's the most unlikely to be on hand, or most difficult to obtain materials required to make the alterations?

[Unoriginal]

Swashbuckler could get a chain, get it on the construct, and then circle around the construct to tie it up.

Granted the construct could break out of it but it'd still waste its action doing so, and while tied up it'd be vulnerable to Heat Metal and would have troubles with anything requiring using hands.

[CapnWildefyr]

One easy tactic: the Paladin can grapple it and hold it in place, while Dodging, to give the Sorceress and Warlock plenty of time to cantrip it to death.

Aren't grapple and dodge both actions? Can you maintain a grapple without spending your action on it?

I would probably give the iron cobra advantage if you're grappling it -- I mean, it's a snake, it's flexible, and your hand isn't going anywhere (unless you manage to grab it just behind its head). Not that grappling wouldn't otherwise work.

[RogueJK]

Can you maintain a grapple without spending your action on it?

Yes. A Grapple requires an attack to initiate, but after that and until/unless the grappled opponent successfully breaks free, your actions are then free to do other things, like Dodge, or Attack your grappled opponent. You don't have to spend an action or attack just to maintain a grapple.

[Sigreid]

Ok, I just looked up the iron cobra. What I'm seeing is it's not really particularly strong or tough outside the damage immunities. It has no special movement powers. it's dumb as a box of rocks. Honestly, if the party knows what is coming, this is kitten play for them to take out if they prepare just a little bit. The whole confine it to where it has no cover and can't get out and just keep it there while the casters cantrip it or you pour oil in and burn it can allow it to be taken with virtually no risk. It's an idiot, it should fall for any old lame trap that is set for it.

The only real challenge I see is if either a. you don't know what is coming or b. it's +7 stealth is enough to keep you from finding it before its job is done (a real possibility). If one of the casters has the mold earth cantrip you can have a pit ready in a few second. If you cover the pit with, say a minor illusion and put the target opposite the snake, the snake should go right for it. Once it's in the pit it's all over. Failing that, People lassoing it from multiple directions should be able to hold it in place with little to no difficulty.

[RogueJK]

Counter-intuitively, that doesn't help at all here. The poison effects are either instant (additional damage) or pre-empt the victim's next turn. (The Poisoned condition doesn't come into play.)

While I agree the Paladin couldn't use it on themselves if they were the one affected by the poison, and it wouldn't prevent/cure the poison damage itself, there's still potentially some help there.

Lay on Hands doesn't just cure the Poisoned condition. It allows the Paladin to "neutralize one poison affecting [the target]". 2 of the 3 effects of the Iron Cobra's poison involve the victim being Confused or Paralyzed until the end of their next turn, and thus wasting their turn. So provided the Paladin is in Initiative order between the Iron Cobra and the victim, he could potentially use Lay on Hands after the victim is Confused/Paralyzed by the Iron Cobra's poison, but before their turn comes up, and thus avoid the Confused/Paralyzed effect from costing the victim their turn. Effectively trading the Paladin's action (spent on Lay on Hands) to allow the victim to then be able to use their full turn. Which would be worth it if, for example, the Sorcerer is the one Confused/Paralyzed, since they are likely going to be the primary damage dealer and the key to taking down the Iron Cobra in the scenario.

[Segev]

A cage or other container it can't just slither through the bars of would be a possible solution. Grapple it, drag it in, then release and walk out before its turn and close the door. Use single-target cantrips to plink it to death.

[animewatcha]

Depending upon the creature, grapple and use the creature's own body against it. Example's sake, a werewolf being given a knuckle sandwich with it's own claw.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Depending upon the creature, grapple and use the creature's own body against it. Example's sake, a werewolf being given a knuckle sandwich with it's own claw.

Doesn’t actually work a werewolf’s attacks aren’t magic or silver.

[FrancisBean]

A post-game follow-up: since the group knew what was coming, I felt free to make it much more difficult, well into the deadly category, by adding some mooks. Even the terrain was stacked against them: areas of rubble under which the snake could travel where the party couldn't see it nor attack it, but which counted as difficult terrain for the group. The group was free to encounter and retreat several times, and the construct wasn't mentally capable of pursuit, so that would make an otherwise unfairly deadly encounter quite reasonable.

Everybody pre-dosed with antitoxin, buffed a bit, charged in, and dogpiled with team grapples and a latching chest. I'd just given them a refresh on grapples and the Aid Another aspect, which helped. It's impressive what a full party can do when their every action is dedicated to "stuff the metal tube in the box, ignore the damage and heal later." The swashbuckler went down twice, but with the Paladin and single-point pop-up healing, there were no permanent losses. They achieved the bonus victory condition: delivering the construct undamaged, rather than destroying it.

[Segev]

A post-game follow-up: since the group knew what was coming, I felt free to make it much more difficult, well into the deadly category, by adding some mooks. Even the terrain was stacked against them: areas of rubble under which the snake could travel where the party couldn't see it nor attack it, but which counted as difficult terrain for the group. The group was free to encounter and retreat several times, and the construct wasn't mentally capable of pursuit, so that would make an otherwise unfairly deadly encounter quite reasonable.

Everybody pre-dosed with antitoxin, buffed a bit, charged in, and dogpiled with team grapples and a latching chest. I'd just given them a refresh on grapples and the Aid Another aspect, which helped. It's impressive what a full party can do when their every action is dedicated to "stuff the metal tube in the box, ignore the damage and heal later." The swashbuckler went down twice, but with the Paladin and single-point pop-up healing, there were no permanent losses. They achieved the bonus victory condition: delivering the construct undamaged, rather than destroying it.

Sounds like an exciting and interesting fight. What were the mooks, and did they care once the construct was contained? Glad everyone had fun. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

My 3rd-level group (I'm the DM) has a side-quest upcoming where they'll face a construct(*) which is immune to non-magical BPS. The group has a Paladin, Swashbuckler, Sorceress, and a Walrock Witch(†). Given a chance to choose their own first magic items, not one of the martials chose a magic weapon. They'll get full advance warning on what they'll be facing, and it's a side-quest they can skip anyway. {bolding mine}
Hunters trap. Multiple. Lead the construct over them until one catches the construct in it.

Hunting Trap. When you use your action to set it, this trap forms a saw-toothed steel ring that snaps shut when a creature steps on a pressure plate in the center. The trap is affixed by a heavy chain to an immobile object, such as a tree or a spike driven into the ground. A creature that steps on the plate must succeed on a DC 13 Dexterity saving throw or take 1d4 piercing damage and stop moving. Thereafter, until the creature breaks free of the trap, its movement is limited by the length of the chain (typically 3 feet long). A creature can use its action to make a DC 13 Strength check, freeing itself or another creature within its reach on a success. Each failed check deals 1 piercing damage to the trapped creature. While I'd suggest coating the trap with standard,
Poison, Basic. You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action. A creature hit by the poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.
I am pretty sure constructs are immune to poison, so trap it and let the Spell casters throw cantrips at it. It will eventually break free. Lead it over another trap, and do it again. Rinse and repeat ... yeah, it's a little brute force, but if it gets out of one trap and pursues the party, your sneakiest member (Swashbuckler) can go back and reset the trap, and then you all eventually lead it over that one again ... so one trap for each party member to set should do it.

Since the Paladin can cast a first level spell, Divine Favor, and each attack will, for one minute, does 1d4 radiant damage, have the Paladin do that to supplement the spell caster cantrip attacks.

Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Your prayer empowers you with divine radiance. Until the spell ends, your weapon attacks deal an
extra 1d4 radiant damage on a hit.


If your Walrock Witch can cast Hex on the construct, that is a way to give it disadvantage on the ability check to get out of the trap.

[FrancisBean]

Sounds like an exciting and interesting fight. What were the mooks, and did they care once the construct was contained? Glad everyone had fun. :smallbiggrin:

The mooks were a kobold colony which had moved into the area, unbeknownst to the ones who gave the party the map to the treasure. The kobolds had built a series of rope-and-plank catwalks 50' above the ground level, and Kobold Inventors kept tossing obnoxious items into the fray. As a comedy relief item, I gave their skunks crazy jury-rigged parachutes. That has become an in joke in the campaign, the skunk paratrooper brigade.

As for the encounter, the sorcerer was a fire-based build, so rope-and-plank catwalks under 60' were obvious targets. The kobolds were forced to retreat without the group having to engage them directly. The kobolds weren't wild about things, because they had incorporated the construct into their lair defenses, but they were smart enough to know when to cut losses.

[Segev]

The mooks were a kobold colony which had moved into the area, unbeknownst to the ones who gave the party the map to the treasure. The kobolds had built a series of rope-and-plank catwalks 50' above the ground level, and Kobold Inventors kept tossing obnoxious items into the fray. As a comedy relief item, I gave their skunks crazy jury-rigged parachutes. That has become an in joke in the campaign, the skunk paratrooper brigade.

As for the encounter, the sorcerer was a fire-based build, so rope-and-plank catwalks under 60' were obvious targets. The kobolds were forced to retreat without the group having to engage them directly. The kobolds weren't wild about things, because they had incorporated the construct into their lair defenses, but they were smart enough to know when to cut losses.

Sounds like the sorcerer got to feel like a really important contributor, since he held off the mook squad by his actions, and the mook squad still cost the party some action economy. Well done. :)

[DevilMcam]

Torches do 1+str fire damage. So 4 for your average paladin.
Compared to the 7.5 average of a bland longsword it's not that bad