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View Full Version : Elementalist (-Brief- Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2021-08-23, 02:34 AM
Link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fJ-EmOjj6DzFXoBRARX3GRXEY9pN7htlplv5FFl8TrE/edit?usp=sharing)

Preamble: Elementalist is like the sickly red-headed, half-bastard 7th step-cousin, 5 times removed class of the Spheres line up. There are classes that focus on a single sphere. But those spheres tend to be reasonably internally flexible. Even Shifter, which is focused on self-morphs...which basically amount to NA spam still has a variety of forms it can hypothetically take, and some of those are utility-based. The Mind sphere can be used for combat, social, buffing, debuffing, control… ok, you get the point.

Elementalist? They do destruction. And only destruction. Some archetypes add a splash of nature as well. Because gosh darn, wouldn’t it be strange to have an elementalist whose only control over the elements is to blast things? Yeah. Anyway, this was supposed to be the brief version of a review. We haven’t even gotten to it yet!

Post-Review Analysis:
While the base class was certainly exactly as remembered, the good archetypes definitely try to breathe life into it.

(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds.
(M) Meh: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) Never: There’s no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign you’re playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(u) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or it’s far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.

(G-S): Powerful talents that are almost, but not quite, universally useful or desirable.
(M-G): These are pretty reasonable talents of mediocre strength.
(N-M): It technically has a use, but the cost simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.


Casting (M)
3/4 Casting is not good. Talents are tied to base CL, even if the class specialized the CL.

Weave Energy (G)
Makes up for the level 1 loss of talent. And gives full CL in Destruction.

(Improved) Evasion (M-G, F)
Avoids reflex saves. Really fits a Destruction caster.

Combat Feat (M)
Mmm…. OK? I guess they sort of, kind of, maybe make up for lost talents. Although Incanter has full talents, and bonus feats before trading anything out. Forced diversification at least.
Although combat feats tend to be relatively... straight forward. Combat talents are nice.

Favored Element (M-G)
You blast good? Well, now you blast plus 1/7 times gooder. With a single blast type group.

Dodge Bonus (N-M)
Eh. Couldn’t care.

Elemental Defense (F, G)
Effective immunity to elemental weapon enchants, and environmental effects. Neat. And it’s to each element, with relatively good scaling. Would have made it equal to 4+class level, personally. But I just kind of dislike hard break points when a near-equivalent scale would do.

Elemental Movement (F)
You could achieve this with Elemental Transformation even by level 7 with a 3/4 caster. But it’s just a flavorful addition to be like superheroes of times long gone.

Energy Body (F)
Nothing… particularly compelling. DR / Magic at level 20? What’s wrong with just getting elemental typing by this point?


Improved Favored Element (G)
When you blast, and only blast, you want to blast as blasty as you can blast.

Rankings better explained in the Google Doc.
Twinsoul Elementalist (S)
Super charged destructive blasts!

Admixture Savant (S)
A great set of powerful upgrades.

Martial Elementalist (S)
Lose 1/4 level feats for 1/2 level talents (plus martial tradition for 4 talents). EASY trade.

Tenebrous Stalker (G-S)
All nice.

Geomancer (G)
Exchanges Destruction mastery with Nature Mastery. Which is actually fine. A lot of nature talents love not only CL but the DC that comes with CL. Or at least that’s what I remember. I reviewed it before I made note of that.

Arcanophage ( [G] )
Turns you into an anti-mage rather than a blaster.

E-fruit-talist (M)
Great names. Mediocre actual effects. Except the aspirational Capstone.

Soul Adept (N-M)
The basic concept is to focus on Ghostly Admixture. Awesome. But it’s… not compatible with Admixture Savant…

(N-M) Earth / Metal / Flame / Water / Wind / Natural Warrior
Forced Flavor, with Nature caster levels starting at level 9.

Kitsuneymg
2021-08-23, 05:49 AM
Elementalist just falls short for me. I kinda remember thinking that the entropic sage hedgewitch did what I wanted elementalist to do, but easier.

And of course every melee elementalist is actually a magus 2/elementalist. So that’s a thing missing from the class as well.

It just feels like it’s 3/4th of a class. Between prodigy, inheritor, magus, and Hedgewitch, I just don’t see a reason to bother with this class, despite it being a favorite archetype.

I think I should point out that dps melee characters can do quite well with flame warrior. Get primal blast ASAP with energy blade (or spell strike). Pick up imbue with nature and penetrating blast as needed. And use searing blast as your base type. You can make quite a decent melee type and maybe throw in some AOE. Energy Cloud, Selective Blast, and Naturesight are available as a high level tricky if you’ve got the talents.

SangoProduction
2021-08-23, 10:45 AM
Elementalist just falls short for me. I kinda remember thinking that the entropic sage hedgewitch did what I wanted elementalist to do, but easier.

And of course every melee elementalist is actually a magus 2/elementalist. So that’s a thing missing from the class as well.

It just feels like it’s 3/4th of a class. Between prodigy, inheritor, magus, and Hedgewitch, I just don’t see a reason to bother with this class, despite it being a favorite archetype.

I think I should point out that dps melee characters can do quite well with flame warrior. Get primal blast ASAP with energy blade (or spell strike). Pick up imbue with nature and penetrating blast as needed. And use searing blast as your base type. You can make quite a decent melee type and maybe throw in some AOE. Energy Cloud, Selective Blast, and Naturesight are available as a high level tricky if you’ve got the talents.

Granted, Entropic Sage is a highly specialized, even more one-note class. So I wouldn't say it is strictly superior.
Magus is indeed definitely a very likely dip to get full value out of the class.
And while I definitely agree that the class itself is subpar, I do very much like Admixture Savant (although taking Incanter's for half the pool is probably worth more), and getting to ride a summoned fire chicken to then bonk on the head in order to blast out an obscene amount of damage is pretty fun (for a few sessions).

While Primal Blast is a nice pick up to truly minimize any potential MAD, I am not positive in what way Flame Warrior in particular is especially notable.

A.J.Gibson
2021-08-23, 11:13 AM
Access is denied on google doc.

The elementalist suffers from the same problems a lot of SoP classes have: a lack of reason to be a separate class. SoP frees characters from class restraints and generally lets any caster do any magical thing. So when you have a caster class, it ends up just having access to a sphere. To really be a class, it needs something not available in spheres (and hopefully won't be made available to spheres later at some later date, see Surreal feats). The elementalist gets Destruction sphere with full CL, and gets a bonus to damage with it via focused damage (because we need another reason to just spam our best attack?) and does nothing else with the sphere. Magus, Entropic Sage, and even Destruction sphere incanter get actual things to do with the sphere.

In addition, the elementalist is supposedly an avatar/dragonball style monk, but it doesn't get any actual martial arts style abilities. It does get the monk chassis, evasion, combat feats, and other things, but it doesn't have any of the things that really make it feel like a martial artist. It doesn't even get spell strike!

SangoProduction
2021-08-23, 01:56 PM
Access is denied on google doc.

The elementalist suffers from the same problems a lot of SoP classes have: a lack of reason to be a separate class. SoP frees characters from class restraints and generally lets any caster do any magical thing. So when you have a caster class, it ends up just having access to a sphere. To really be a class, it needs something not available in spheres (and hopefully won't be made available to spheres later at some later date, see Surreal feats). The elementalist gets Destruction sphere with full CL, and gets a bonus to damage with it via focused damage (because we need another reason to just spam our best attack?) and does nothing else with the sphere. Magus, Entropic Sage, and even Destruction sphere incanter get actual things to do with the sphere.

In addition, the elementalist is supposedly an avatar/dragonball style monk, but it doesn't get any actual martial arts style abilities. It does get the monk chassis, evasion, combat feats, and other things, but it doesn't have any of the things that really make it feel like a martial artist. It doesn't even get spell strike!

Oops. Fixed. And yes. I agree. Although I'm not sure it's supposed to be a dragonball style anything. Just one of the very first ever classes to be designed in the system.
Now, if you do want a dragonball style monk that is right (overly) powerful, and good customization (even if a bit too good), then the Sage is where you'd look.

Kitsuneymg
2021-08-23, 04:34 PM
Granted, Entropic Sage is a highly specialized, even more one-note class. So I wouldn't say it is strictly superior.
Magus is indeed definitely a very likely dip to get full value out of the class.
And while I definitely agree that the class itself is subpar, I do very much like Admixture Savant (although taking Incanter's for half the pool is probably worth more), and getting to ride a summoned fire chicken to then bonk on the head in order to blast out an obscene amount of damage is pretty fun (for a few sessions).

While Primal Blast is a nice pick up to truly minimize any potential MAD, I am not positive in what way Flame Warrior in particular is especially notable.

It gets you fire package which has the d8 blast. That’s it. D8 is optimal for pure damage numbers. Between imbue with nature and penetrating strike, you don’t have to worry a ton about the normal downfalls of a fire mage (ER/SR). And flame warrior just means you’re setup for fewest other build resources to spend to get into that.

I still think that arcane weaponeer 2/inheritor 18 does that just flat better than any elementalist build could.