Craft Wondrous Item as a pseudo-ritual casting effect

[Segev]

In Pathfinder, they have this cool feature on magic item crafting that lets you make anything that isn't spell completion or spell trigger without necessarily knowing the spells involved. Each spell you don't know is a requirement to craft the item you don't meet, and thus adds +5 to the Spellcraft DC. Note: not meeting the CL is ALSO a requirement you don't meet, so is only another +5 to the DC, if that matters.

Now, it bears mention that item crafting in 3.PF is always subject to DM approval, but I want to focus here on what the rules let you do if the RAW are allowed.

In particular, here, I was thinking about awaken (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken/), but this theoretically works for any spell, particularly instantaneous ones with longer durations (animate dead, perhaps).

Awaken is a level 5 spell at its lowest level (on the Druid list), and thus needs a CL of 9. If you are a level 3 to level 8 caster, your CL isn't high enough, and you don't have the spell, so that's +10 to the Spellcraft DC. Since the based DC is 5 + the item's CL, that's 5+9+5+5 or DC 24. Nontrivial, but doable if you work at it. You need a +14 if your DM will let you take 10 on the roll. Awaken also has an expensive material component (2000 gp worth). A one-shot wondrous item of a 5th level spell costs 5x9x50=2,250 gp market price, of which you need to spend 1,125 gp in materials on top of the spell's material component. It takes 1 day per thousand GP base market price (round up), so 3 days to craft.

What I'm imagining here is a crafter - perhaps not even a druid - performing a ritual that creates a one-shot magic item of awaken to turn an animal or plant into a sentient, friendly ally. It would cost them 3 days and 3,125 gp. Since the item is consumed, you could make it be a tattoo or something. Maybe a tattoo around the head, like a headband. Once expended (likely the moment it's on the creature), it's not magical anymore so doesn't obstruct other magical items. (Okay, technically, the caster should wear the item, but style, here.)

There are risks involved if you can't reliably make that relatively high DC, but you can throw more money at the problem if you have to to get your Spellcraft up.

This methodology allows access to a LOT of off-list spells for anyone with Craft Wondrous Item, and possibly for other item creation methods as well. Am I missing anything in this analysis? How likely is this to get DMGs spontaneously animating as head-hunting ballistic monsters, do you guys think? (Obviously, this is an "ask your DM" thing, but I'm curious what the hivemind's baseline reaction is.)

[Psyren]

This methodology allows access to a LOT of off-list spells for anyone with Craft Wondrous Item, and possibly for other item creation methods as well. Am I missing anything in this analysis? How likely is this to get DMGs spontaneously animating as head-hunting ballistic monsters, do you guys think? (Obviously, this is an "ask your DM" thing, but I'm curious what the hivemind's baseline reaction is.)

I don't think there's any need for DMs to throw things at you - you're essentially proposing a bunch of custom items, which need case-by-case approval anyway, unless you're aware of a printed one-shot wondrous item that lets you awaken things. This is a bit stronger a barrier than the simple baseline of "you need GM approval to craft in the first place" because there are plenty of GMs who are fine with you crafting something that exists in a rulebook, but will go over custom items with a fine-toothed comb.

[Segev]

I don't think there's any need for DMs to throw things at you - you're essentially proposing a bunch of custom items, which need case-by-case approval anyway, unless you're aware of a printed one-shot wondrous item that lets you awaken things. This is a bit stronger a barrier than the simple baseline of "you need GM approval to craft in the first place" because there are plenty of GMs who are fine with you crafting something that exists in a rulebook, but will go over custom items with a fine-toothed comb.

True. I suppose my question is, how leery should a DM be of permitting various spells to be acquired in this fashion? In particular one-shot instantaneous effects, such as awaken?

This comes to my mind from the Flying Mount thread, where one of the things that occurred to me as a way to make a mount more viable is to Awaken it and let it start taking class levels.

[Zanos]

Not super familiar with pathfinder crafting, but isn't a one shot item of a spell just a scroll?

[Segev]

Not super familiar with pathfinder crafting, but isn't a one shot item of a spell just a scroll?

Different feats, costs, and requirements. Scrolls cost half as much as one-shot items of spells that aren't scrolls. They also can only be made with Scribe Scroll, rather than Craft Wondrous Item, and can only be used by spellcasters who have the spell on their list and are of sufficient level to cast them. (Some checks - UMD and CL - can be done to get around that latter requirement.) You also explicitly cannot enchant a scroll of a spell you don't know; spell completion items - and spell trigger, like wands and staves - do not let you just add +5 to the Spellcraft DC to get around lacking the spell in those cases.

[Psyren]

True. I suppose my question is, how leery should a DM be of permitting various spells to be acquired in this fashion? In particular one-shot instantaneous effects, such as awaken?

This comes to my mind from the Flying Mount thread, where one of the things that occurred to me as a way to make a mount more viable is to Awaken it and let it start taking class levels.

While the custom items you're proposing aren't actually scrolls, you're essentially doing an end-run around the scroll rules, so my personal answer would be "pretty leery."

Another big consideration for me would be the nature of the spell itself (no pun intended). I'd be more likely to allow this for a spell that is widely available on multiple lists and types of magic, than one that is very clearly aimed not just at divine casters, but the two most nature-focused ones at that. The power to create sapience isn't something I think natural forces would be cool with just any crafter being able to put on a stick, and so if I allowed this at all it would most likely come with some very heavy restrictions or drawbacks.

[JNAProductions]

If I was a DM for PF and you asked this, I'd ask you "What do you plan on doing with this?"

For something like Awaken, I don't see any major issues offhand-if you do, I'd expect you to let me know. But having a buddy tree or bear or whatever, while it would certainly be more powerful at level 3 than at level 9, I don't think would break the game. But if you DO have some big trick with it, I'd expect to hear it, and then decide if it fits the game.

I would NOT blanket approve this, but, provided what you're doing isn't game-breaking or liable to make the party unbalanced excessively, I'd be inclined to say yes.

Pretty much, I know there's a gakload of PF content. (And more, if you add 3.X to the mix.) I know full well that there's tons I don't know. So, I'd trust you to be honest with me about any shenanigans or lack thereof you want to pull, and assess from there.

[Segev]

If I was a DM for PF and you asked this, I'd ask you "What do you plan on doing with this?"

For something like Awaken, I don't see any major issues offhand-if you do, I'd expect you to let me know. But having a buddy tree or bear or whatever, while it would certainly be more powerful at level 3 than at level 9, I don't think would break the game. But if you DO have some big trick with it, I'd expect to hear it, and then decide if it fits the game.

I would NOT blanket approve this, but, provided what you're doing isn't game-breaking or liable to make the party unbalanced excessively, I'd be inclined to say yes.

Pretty much, I know there's a gakload of PF content. (And more, if you add 3.X to the mix.) I know full well that there's tons I don't know. So, I'd trust you to be honest with me about any shenanigans or lack thereof you want to pull, and assess from there.Valid and fair. I generally try, when planning something specifically for a game use, to have my "tricks" outlined clearly for exactly that reason. And, if I see an exploit in what I'm asking for that isn't my explicit purpose for it, I'll outline the exploit and either suggest ways to mitigate/remove it or come to a gentlemen's agreement about it (assuming the DM doesn't just say 'the exploit is fine, too' of course).

In this case, the inspiration for thinking about this was the thread on flying mounts, and the use case goal would be having a mount with class levels that is therefore more durable. Without spending a feat exclusively on that. (I might even argue, if I were building a PC with Leadership, for the cohort to just be an awakened creature without needing to go through explaining how my character arranged the awakening.)


While the custom items you're proposing aren't actually scrolls, you're essentially doing an end-run around the scroll rules, so my personal answer would be "pretty leery."

Another big consideration for me would be the nature of the spell itself (no pun intended). I'd be more likely to allow this for a spell that is widely available on multiple lists and types of magic, than one that is very clearly aimed not just at divine casters, but the two most nature-focused ones at that. The power to create sapience isn't something I think natural forces would be cool with just any crafter being able to put on a stick, and so if I allowed this at all it would most likely come with some very heavy restrictions or drawbacks.

I actually don't know that I'll even try to run it by the one DM for a game I'm in where it would be relevant; my character's mount hasn't been in danger of death so far, and we've played from level 3 up to level 6. Admittedly, he hasn't ridden the mount much in combat. If I were to ask for this for that character, however, he's a Vitalist and his mount is a Dire Bat (named Elise), so I'd use "it's psionics; doing things to minds is in the wheelhouse" as the justification, and the emulation of awaken wouldn't actually be tapping nature magic (at least not on purpose) so much as figuring out a way to use psionics to stimulate Elise's mind.

The purpose in general I was thinking of is, as mentioned before, class-leveled mounts. I'd actually argue for the possibility of training your mount in levels of fighter or barbarian or the like regardless, but awaken does specifically mention that the creatures become able to gain class levels. Which, if nothing else, diminishes the amount of "DM, may I?" or moves it to a ground of "DM, may I if I spend these resources?"

[Psyren]

So not only inventing a custom wondrous (universal?) item, but inventing a custom power to put into it. Ehhhh.

Speaking for myself, I'd just find a different way to get you a scaling companion instead. I don't think the class levels part is necessary if your main concern is survivability, so I'd be more inclined to get you an animal companion or eidolon for your mount than a cohort.

[Segev]

So not only inventing a custom wondrous (universal?) item, but inventing a custom power to put into it. Ehhhh.

Speaking for myself, I'd just find a different way to get you a scaling companion instead. I don't think the class levels part is necessary if your main concern is survivability, so I'd be more inclined to get you an animal companion or eidolon for your mount than a cohort.

Speaking to the Flying Mount thread, I believe avoiding wild cohorts or specific class investment was a goal. Speaking to my character, he's definitely not going to be taking classes that give summons, eidolons, or animal companions. But, fortunately, it's not been an issue for my character so far. (And, as a vitalist, he can just keep the mount in the collective and give lots of temp hp.)

[Psyren]

You don't have to take specific classes to get such a companion though - routes like VMC or feats like Animal Ally and Monstrous Companion exist as well.

Awaken is the kind of effect where I would require specific class investment - if the designers had wanted it to be widely available/class-agnostic, it would have been, and awakening trees and animals to sapience feels like a pretty class-defining ability (to me at least.)

[JNAProductions]

You don't have to take specific classes to get such a companion though - routes like VMC or feats like Animal Ally and Monstrous Companion exist as well.

Awaken is the kind of effect where I would require specific class investment - if the designers had wanted it to be widely available/class-agnostic, it would have been, and awakening trees and animals to sapience feels like a pretty class-defining ability (to me at least.)

I can see why Segev doesn't want to spend feats or archetypes on a mount, when money can solve the issue.

And I applaud them, as well, for attempting to stick within the rules. Though, being a more 5E DM, I'd honestly rather just homebrew something appropriate than futz about to make it "official".

[Psyren]

I can see why Segev doesn't want to spend feats or archetypes on a mount, when money can solve the issue.

Well sure, nearly every 3.P player would want to just spend gold to attain something rather than much more valuable/precious feats. But he was asking for opinions on whether that should be allowed, and my personal answer would be no, for the reasons I provided. YMMV of course.

[Calthropstu]

In Pathfinder, they have this cool feature on magic item crafting that lets you make anything that isn't spell completion or spell trigger without necessarily knowing the spells involved. Each spell you don't know is a requirement to craft the item you don't meet, and thus adds +5 to the Spellcraft DC. Note: not meeting the CL is ALSO a requirement you don't meet, so is only another +5 to the DC, if that matters.

Now, it bears mention that item crafting in 3.PF is always subject to DM approval, but I want to focus here on what the rules let you do if the RAW are allowed.

In particular, here, I was thinking about awaken (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken/), but this theoretically works for any spell, particularly instantaneous ones with longer durations (animate dead, perhaps).

Awaken is a level 5 spell at its lowest level (on the Druid list), and thus needs a CL of 9. If you are a level 3 to level 8 caster, your CL isn't high enough, and you don't have the spell, so that's +10 to the Spellcraft DC. Since the based DC is 5 + the item's CL, that's 5+9+5+5 or DC 24. Nontrivial, but doable if you work at it. You need a +14 if your DM will let you take 10 on the roll. Awaken also has an expensive material component (2000 gp worth). A one-shot wondrous item of a 5th level spell costs 5x9x50=2,250 gp market price, of which you need to spend 1,125 gp in materials on top of the spell's material component. It takes 1 day per thousand GP base market price (round up), so 3 days to craft.

What I'm imagining here is a crafter - perhaps not even a druid - performing a ritual that creates a one-shot magic item of awaken to turn an animal or plant into a sentient, friendly ally. It would cost them 3 days and 3,125 gp. Since the item is consumed, you could make it be a tattoo or something. Maybe a tattoo around the head, like a headband. Once expended (likely the moment it's on the creature), it's not magical anymore so doesn't obstruct other magical items. (Okay, technically, the caster should wear the item, but style, here.)

There are risks involved if you can't reliably make that relatively high DC, but you can throw more money at the problem if you have to to get your Spellcraft up.

This methodology allows access to a LOT of off-list spells for anyone with Craft Wondrous Item, and possibly for other item creation methods as well. Am I missing anything in this analysis? How likely is this to get DMGs spontaneously animating as head-hunting ballistic monsters, do you guys think? (Obviously, this is an "ask your DM" thing, but I'm curious what the hivemind's baseline reaction is.)

Raw your analysis is absolitely correct. This was done specifically to allow a path for mundane master crafters to create magic items and to make it easier to create magic items across classes. Having a lvl 20 wizard master crafter need to expend a limited wish to cast entangle to create an item requiring entangle is a tad silly. The limited wish itself would cost more than the item.

So it is both raw and rai. Awaken might have gms balk though.

[Segev]

I can see why Segev doesn't want to spend feats or archetypes on a mount, when money can solve the issue.

And I applaud them, as well, for attempting to stick within the rules. Though, being a more 5E DM, I'd honestly rather just homebrew something appropriate than futz about to make it "official".


Well sure, nearly every 3.P player would want to just spend gold to attain something rather than much more valuable/precious feats. But he was asking for opinions on whether that should be allowed, and my personal answer would be no, for the reasons I provided. YMMV of course.

You're both quite right, and I appreciate your input and viewpoints. And homebrewing something is always feasible, but I like to use the game's provided tools where possible, at least as a starting point/guideline. This is, in part, because playing with the "build it yourself" rules is almost a game in and of itself, and is thus fun, but it is also at least useful for gauging a ballpark, or figuring whether the ballpark is built in the wrong city for what you're trying to do. ...if I may strain a metaphor.

In general, 3.PF is a bit harsh on mounts. My own homebrew solution would be to simply allow - or create a feat that allows, or modify Mounted Combat to allow - the rider to spend his own hp whenever the mount would take damage, or even to simply pool the mount and riders' hp and treat them as one creature for taking damage. That has its own issues, so is a longer discussion.

In a broad sense, there ARE solutions, though they presume you're making the mount a signature part of the build rather than something closer to a magic item. It's a little sad that getting a Broom of Flying is probably a better solution for most high-level characters.

In my specific case, if Elise ever comes into danger, Byras can keep her flush with temp hp thanks to Vigor and the Collective, and that will likely suffice. If not, further steps can be taken.


Raw your analysis is absolitely correct. This was done specifically to allow a path for mundane master crafters to create magic items and to make it easier to create magic items across classes. Having a lvl 20 wizard master crafter need to expend a limited wish to cast entangle to create an item requiring entangle is a tad silly. The limited wish itself would cost more than the item.

So it is both raw and rai. Awaken might have gms balk though.Thanks; I agree that GMs may balk. I think it will depend heavily on how you sell it and what you're trying to wind up with. Certainly, a Druid or a Ranger doing this "a few levels early" is more likely to get a nod of acceptance than a fighter or even a wizard trying it "on the side." Though I could also see "but wizards made owlbears" style argument, too. And my own case of "psionics work with minds, right?" being a thing.

Honestly, the biggest thing here might just be what class, precisely, you try to get them into. Fighter or something else that's simple and a pile of hp might go over better as a package than, say, aegis or cleric.

[mehs]

In essence, you are ignoring one of the main things that comes with making custom magic items, which is respecting each feats niche.

Scrolls niche is being cheap but starkly limited to what you could already do. Potions niche is being able to be used like scrolls useable by anyone, but more expensive and only for low level spells. Wondrous items niche is magic items with continuous or recurring effects.

Wondrous item one shot items are more of item's that have limited uses, like a necklace of fireballs or gloves of the healer. They have varied effects that don't fit into a wand or staff, but are more recurring than potions or such. Those items come close to just being a wand of fireballs or such, but pointedly are not and are mechanically unique.
You are essentially wanting a wondrous item that falls much more in line with what a scroll or potion can do, but unlimited in scope. A scroll that you don't have to know the spell, a potion that can be of any level spell.

If you are wanting a ritual casting "item creation" ability, then you can make that as a custom feat. Price it like potions but give it the defining characteristic that the created 'item' isn't a true item. Possibly it takes effect immediately once created unless they spring extra to give it a limited duration. Would be good in some campaigns, a city's archmage stretches their power to its limit to create a ritual item of mordenkainen's disjunction that the party needs to take and use on the the macguffin that the evil tyrant is using to control an army that is on the war path to destroy archmage's city. Party has a built in deadline racing against the clock to get in range and trigger the spell.

Like it's possible, but what you are describing is definitely not a wondrous item and should fall under a specific feat.