Alignment and genies?

[Mercurial891]

What is it about the Elemental Planes that give genies such specific alignments? Why are all Dao evil slavers and Efreeti sadists? I know I can just change it, but I am curious if there was ever a rationale behind it.

[Thurbane]

What is it about the Elemental Planes that give genies such specific alignments? Why are all Dao evil slavers and Efreeti sadists? I know I can just change it, but I am curious if there was ever a rationale behind it.

I suspect it was to tie them a little more to real world mythology. It's been this way ever since 1E.

Potentially following the same kind of reasoning that chromatic dragons are "always" evil, and metallic dragons "always" good.

I think ingame they have a fairly rigid hierarchy/caste system, which probably also contributes to their alignments.

afroakuma (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616081) can probably shed much more light than I can.

[ShurikVch]

In 3.0, they both had Evil subtype

(Also, Djinni had Good subtype)

[Mercurial891]

Yeah, but is Fire and Earth inherently evil? And did 5E change this?

[ShurikVch]

Yeah, but is Fire and Earth inherently evil?
Not just Evil alignment - but Evil subtype
Subtype is going well beyond the mere alignment
Having an "alignment" subtype means you're linked, somehow, to some Outer Plane, or Power (or both)

[Thurbane]

Yeah, but is Fire and Earth inherently evil? And did 5E change this?

No idea about 5E, but none of the elemental planes has an inherent alignment leaning that I am aware of.

I mean, the Elemental Princes (Ogrémoch) tend to be evil (except for one or two published in Dragon mag), but IMHO that's not indicative of the plane.

If you check Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, it should have detailed info on the planar traits of the elemental planes, and from memory, none of those traits are alignment based.

[Mercurial891]

Not just Evil alignment - but Evil subtype
Subtype is going well beyond the mere alignment
Having an "alignment" subtype means you're linked, somehow, to some Outer Plane, or Power (or both)


Yeah, but is Fire and Earth inherently evil? And did 5E change this?



Which makes no sense. Do the souls that would be petitioners for evil afterlives wind up in the earth and and fire planes or do even good souls transform into evil monsters when they become genies?

[Thurbane]

If you check Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, it should have detailed info on the planar traits of the elemental planes, and from memory, none of those traits are alignment based.

Actually, I forgot, there is info in the SRD: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm


The Elemental Plane of Earth has the following traits.

- Earth-dominant.
- Enhanced magic. Spells and spell-like abilities that use, manipulate, or create earth or stone (including those of the Earth domain) are both empowered and extended (as if the Empower Spell and Extend Spell metamagic feats had been used on them, but the spells don’t require higher-level slots). Spells and spell-like abilities that are already empowered or extended are unaffected by this benefit.
- Impeded magic. Spells and spell-like abilities that use or create air (including spells of the Air domain and spells that summon air elementals or outsiders with the air subtype) are impeded.


The Elemental Plane of Fire has the following traits.

- Fire-dominant.
- Enhanced magic. Spells and spell-like abilities with the fire descriptor are both maximized and enlarged (as if the Maximize Spell and Enlarge Spell had been used on them, but the spells don’t require higher-level slots). Spells and spell-like abilities that are already maximized or enlarged are unaffected by this benefit.
- Impeded magic. Spells and spell-like abilities that use or create water (including spells of the Water domain and spells that summon water elementals or outsiders with the water subtype) are impeded.

As you can see, no kind of alignment traits.

As I've said a couple of times now, I'm pretty confident it's flavour related: to ingame fluff, and possibly to emulate certain real world mythology.

[Teth]

Which makes no sense. Do the souls that would be petitioners for evil afterlives wind up in the earth and and fire planes or do even good souls transform into evil monsters when they become genies?

The underworld is often an underworld in many mythological systems, and fire is often used to torture penitents, thus earth and fire. Water and air give you clouds, thus the celestial realms, plus the association of water with purification and so forth.

But honestly, it's all arbitrary, you could pick examples to justify any division you wanted to support. Such as how underworlds equally have associations with water, like the Styx, Huangquan, the Naglfar. And fire can easily be seen as light, purification, the source of civilization. Mix it around however, or just have elemental planes be neutral (which IMO makes the most sense).

Messing with the cosmology and theology is one of those things that's expected to be fairly basic in games from how the sourcebooks are written, as much as it doesn't come up as often as expected, to the point that players often just bring extensive OOC metaknowledge into stuff without getting called on it.

If you want djinn to be a peaceful civilization of interdimensional traders who rarely get up to more evil than selling you questionable goods at a steep markup, if it's your game, just do it.

[Zombimode]

Which makes no sense. Do the souls that would be petitioners for evil afterlives wind up in the earth and and fire planes or do even good souls transform into evil monsters when they become genies?

Petitioners dont end up on the inner planes at all.

Also, the different genie kind's alignements are not indicative for the elements in general. As you will note the actual elementals are all neutral.

Why are the genies the way they are? Well, why is anything the way it is in the multiverse? The multiverse is not of a tidy neat symetrical design. Or at least its actual state is not like that. Think of it like a software project: most projects start out with a clear architecture, clearly defined patterns, universly adhered to coding conventions etc.
10 years later and the code base is an absolute mess.

The multiverse has a history. And that means its current state is the product of all the developments and events in the past. And with no single guiding mind the multiverses developments are highly chaotic. While there are certain "laws" or "rules" of how the multiverse functions its state is highly heterogenic. As such things like the Dao being slavers or the existence of the City of Brass are remarkable but also plausible because these facts are contingent (which is the modal opposite of necessary). In other words: there is nothing that necessitates that Dao are slavers (unlike the exemplar races, well, exemplify their native planes, which IS necessary), but it is possible that the multiverse would evolve in a way that Dao are slavers and apparently the multivers DID evolve in such a way.

Thats the watsonian view.

The doylist view is that the genie types are modeled after their mythological origins and their traits (including aligment) are inspired by these origins.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder did change the Dao to be LN (renaming them to Shaitans) if that feels better for your cosmology. They also removed the alignment subtyping from all of them, leaving them only with elemental.

This means that the only evil ones now are Efreet.

[Tzardok]

I'm pretty sure 3.5 already removed the alignment subtypes; the Genies in the Monster Manual don't have them.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure 3.5 already removed the alignment subtypes; the Genies in the Monster Manual don't have them.

Dao and Marids are found in Manual of the Planes and have [Evil] and [Chaotic] respectively. Not sure if they were reprinted elsewhere.

[Zaq]

On a meta level, I'm pretty sure efreeti are LE because they're the ones who actually have the ability to grant wishes and this provides a convenient reason for them to be, at best, "jerkass literal genies" and not just cheerfully help anyone who stumbles across a scroll of planar binding. Lawful so they can do the "I gave you exactly what you wished for" thing and Evil so they can still screw you over while doing it.

If you start from the premise of "it's very important that efreeti be LE and that there be few, if any, exceptions to this" then it makes sense to me that the fluff writers would craft something like they did. And I can also see them turning into slavers because it's easy to imagine foolish mortals ending up on the wrong sides of bargains with them. (Yes I know we also have devils for that, but that's okay.)

Dao... eh, I dunno. Is that perhaps a reference to the mythological source? I admit that I'm not super duper familiar with those original myths/folklore.

[Tzardok]

Dao and Marids are found in Manual of the Planes and have [Evil] and [Chaotic] respectively. Not sure if they were reprinted elsewhere.

They aren't. I just meant that all genies printed in 3.5 works (jinn, jann, ifrit, qorrash, khayal) don't have alignment subtypes. Manual of the Planes is 3.0; and IIRC there was an update booklet for it which removed the subtypes from those two too.

[Buufreak]

As for the historical/mythical sources on why they are evil, you need to look into the etiology. The word "genie" is derived from the Arabic "djinn" which is further taken from the Hebrew "shedim." Shedim, as it were, is where we derived the modern term "demon" from. So, to summarize, demons and genies are innately evil because historically they are the same thing.

[Tzardok]

As for the historical/mythical sources on why they are evil, you need to look into the etiology. The word "genie" is derived from the Arabic "djinn" which is further taken from the Hebrew "shedim." Shedim, as it were, is where we derived the modern term "demon" from. So, to summarize, demons and genies are innately evil because historically they are the same thing.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Demon derives from Greek Daimon, which means "spirit" and originally designated a being that serves as a medium between the mortal world and the divine world. (Similiar to angel, which derives from Greek Angelos, "messenger", and was used interchangeable with Daimon.)

[ShurikVch]

They aren't. I just meant that all genies printed in 3.5 works (jinn, jann, ifrit, qorrash, khayal) don't have alignment subtypes. Manual of the Planes is 3.0; and IIRC there was an update booklet for it which removed the subtypes from those two too.
FWIW, Qorrashi (Frostburn) are Cold, Extraplanar, Lawful

[JoeNapalm]

We prefer "djinni"...



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Psyren]

They aren't. I just meant that all genies printed in 3.5 works (jinn, jann, ifrit, qorrash, khayal) don't have alignment subtypes. Manual of the Planes is 3.0; and IIRC there was an update booklet for it which removed the subtypes from those two too.


FWIW, Qorrashi (Frostburn) are Cold, Extraplanar, Lawful

Yeah it looks like 3.5 wasn't too consistent about it even if they revisited it later in some cases.

My overall point, which stands, is that there is precedent for the OP feeling the alignment subtypes on genies are unnecessary. We can get to Efreet bad/Djinn good without making any of them be composed of an alignment.

[ShurikVch]

Note about the City of Brass (Manual of the Planes):

The City of Brass is populated by powerful efreet, and is considered by many efreet to be their home and their capital. Efreet may be found elsewhere on the Elemental Plane of Fire, but even far-flung settlements owe fealty and allegiance to the grand sultan who rules the City of Brass from his burning palace. The grand sultan is said to be an efreeti of singular power and prowess, and is advised by all manner of maliks, beys, and emirs. His direct servants, both in the city and on the Material Plane, are six pashas of considerable power.

The City of Brass also has the mildly evil-aligned trait. Good-aligned creatures within the City of Brass suffer a –2 penalty on all Charisma-based checks and skills. This is due in part to the nature of the efreet within the walls, but the city also has a number of freestanding gates leading to the Nine Hells of Baator. Devils are common within the walls of the City of Brass, either on missions for their infernal masters or bringing tribute and gifts to the grand sultan's court.
Just like I said earlier: links to the Nine Hells!..