Spider-Man: No Way Home - Official Teaser Trailer, just released from Sony Pictures

[Ramza00]

https://youtu.be/rt-2cxAiPJk

First Peter Parker Movie I been looking forward too for 9 years.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Finally! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-2cxAiPJk)


Pumpkin bomb, yes! :smallbiggrin:
Also very excited to see Doc Ock, although he’s less of a surprise seeing how his actor admitted to being in the movie.

Looks like it’s going to be fun, all things considered. :smallsmile:

[Cen]

THAT'S ALFRED MOLINA FROM SPIDER MAN 2?
wow

Woooow.
I'm excited.

[Psyren]

In addition to Alfred Molina's Ock, I saw a pumpkin bomb, yellow lightning with sand, and... was that the Lizard in that jump-scare shot? Are we building towards a Sinister Six?

Looks like we're getting some big One More Day vibes with this one. Here's hoping it doesn't turn out nearly as bad as the comic did.

[Dire_Flumph]

In addition to Alfred Molina's Ock, I saw a pumpkin bomb, yellow lightning with sand, and... was that the Lizard in that jump-scare shot? Are we building towards a Sinister Six?

Sony's been building to Sinister Six for about a decade now. Not sure if Molina would turn up for that though.

Interesting trailer, but seemed more like a plot summary than a tease. Little nervous about leaning too far into nostalgic returns.

[Palanan]

This is officially the one Marvel movie I'm fully psyched for.

That said, I really have to wonder why Dr. Strange would cast a major spell like that when, from the sound of it, he doesn’t really know all the ramifications--and when the only point is to ease one teenager's social problems.

However, I’m willing to run with it for the time being. I have a soft spot for Alfred Molina’s Doc Ock, and as much as I’m not fond of the whole multiverse thing, it’ll be worth it to watch Iron Spider throw down with the tentacle AIs.

So, yeah. Fully onboard this train…no matter how many trains we end up with.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Wondermod powers activate! Form of: Merged Thread!

[Ramza00]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Wondermod powers activate! Form of: Merged Thread!

Thank You for your service 🙏 I was this close to posting a Spider-Man meme.

————

Speaking of the Memetic and Mimesis, Peter please …

Please stop going to authority figures with goatees and asking for help. The daddies (or is it surrogate uncles?) in the film always make it worse. :smallsigh:

[MammonAzrael]

This trailer has me hyped. I've always loved the Spider multiverse, and Dafoe and Molina both delivered spectacular performances.



Speaking of the Memetic and Mimesis, Peter please …

Please stop going to authority figures with goatees and asking for help. The daddies (or is it surrogate uncles?) in the film always make it worse. :smallsigh:

Well then, since Molina is confirmed the Rami version, and so is Dafoe, Peter can try talking to two new potential clean shaven authority figures! One of which should even ostensibly be sympathetic! What could possibly go wrong? Three if that dark shot with something behind Peter was Connors/Lizard, and not Venom.

[Palanan]

One thing I didn't see in the trailer....

...was any hint of Vulture. There was a bit of setup in the Homecoming credits, and it would've been nice for Vulture to be part of the mix.

I also wonder if this whole scenario isn't stealing a little thunder from Into the Spider-Verse. But I guess multiple Peters is at least a little different from multiple spider-persons.

I think the snippet at 2:26 was showing Doc Ock coming out of the darkness, with the red embers being the optics on the tentacles.

[Psyren]

That said, I really have to wonder why Dr. Strange would cast a major spell like that when, from the sound of it, he doesn’t really know all the ramifications--and when the only point is to ease one teenager's social problems.

However, I’m willing to run with it for the time being. I have a soft spot for Alfred Molina’s Doc Ock, and as much as I’m not fond of the whole multiverse thing, it’ll be worth it to watch Iron Spider throw down with the tentacle AIs.

So, yeah. Fully onboard this train…no matter how many trains we end up with.

I have to agree:

It seems a little weird for Dr Strange of all people to be so eager to pull a One More Day here, and hang the consequences - not just for the cosmos, but even for Peter himself. Part of me can't help but wonder - are we dealing with the right one? Or even Stephen Strange at all?


One thing I didn't see in the trailer....

...was any hint of Vulture. There was a bit of setup in the Homecoming credits, and it would've been nice for Vulture to be part of the mix.

He's busy with Morbius :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

This trailer has me hyped. I've always loved the Spider multiverse, and Dafoe and Molina both delivered spectacular performances.




Well then, since Molina is confirmed the Rami version, and so is Dafoe, Peter can try talking to two new potential clean shaven authority figures! One of which should even ostensibly be sympathetic! What could possibly go wrong? Three if that dark shot with something behind Peter was Connors/Lizard, and not Venom.

Perfectly balanced as all things should be…until you mentioned his “rival” Venom.

—————

Edit: I decided I need a bunch of connected shorts of Wong doing nice things, like we had shorts of Coulson on his way to Thor’s hammer and deciding what type of donuts he will have for the remaining car ride.

[ben-zayb]

I'm way beyond hyped. This looks like it will be a massive spectacle of a movie, unlike what I felt for BW and the trailers for Eternals and Shang-Chi.

Anyone have any guesses as to how Strange's spell brought back the old Raimi villains? Did Doc Ock and Gobby forgot that Tom Holland isn't their Peter Parker or something?

It's crazy how we're pretty much going full circle with the whole Spider-Man franchise, not to mention Raimi helming the Dr. Strange sequel.

[Cen]

Anyone have any guesses as to how Strange's spell brought back the old Raimi villains? Did Doc Ock and Gobby forgot that Tom Holland isn't their Peter Parker or something?




'People assume that time is a strict progression from cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff', or in short - the plot needs it for movie to happen.

[Ramza00]

I'm way beyond hyped. This looks like it will be a massive spectacle of a movie, unlike what I felt for BW and the trailers for Eternals and Shang-Chi.

Anyone have any guesses as to how Strange's spell brought back the old Raimi villains? Did Doc Ock and Gobby forgot that Tom Holland isn't their Peter Parker or something?

It's crazy how we're pretty much going full circle with the whole Spider-Man franchise, not to mention Raimi helming the Dr. Strange sequel.


This is a teaser, thus incomplete information by definition.

Peter and Strange were dealing a world wide memory spell. That spell was modified by Peter interacting with it.
1) we do not know how it was modified.
2) we do not know if the modification is ongoing, if it is progressive expanding outwards modifying more and more.
(I say yes for when telling a 3 act structure instead of other story structure, a progressive problem that gets worse is one of the ways to maximize tension, it can be argued to be the “easiest” way to maximize tension)
3) likewise we do not know if there is any cost or price to casting the spell in the first place, like some form of sacrifice.
(Perhaps memory loss from one reality means memory gain from another reality, and so on.)

In sum we are dealing with silver age magic stuff and I am having fun with the MCU again. :smalltongue:

[GloatingSwine]

I'm way beyond hyped. This looks like it will be a massive spectacle of a movie, unlike what I felt for BW and the trailers for Eternals and Shang-Chi.

Anyone have any guesses as to how Strange's spell brought back the old Raimi villains? Did Doc Ock and Gobby forgot that Tom Holland isn't their Peter Parker or something?

It's crazy how we're pretty much going full circle with the whole Spider-Man franchise, not to mention Raimi helming the Dr. Strange sequel.


Obviously he was casting it at the exact moment Sylvie stabbed He Who Remains and all the timelines got cut loose.

[Dragonus45]

Generic trailer with a big nostalgia pop at the end... I LOVED IT. Last time I made noises that high pitched I had almost run straight into Misha Collins at dragoncon back in 2011.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Wondermod powers activate! Form of: Merged Thread!

Thank you Peelee! :smallsmile:


One thing I didn't see in the trailer....

...was any hint of Vulture. There was a bit of setup in the Homecoming credits, and it would've been nice for Vulture to be part of the mix.

I also wonder if this whole scenario isn't stealing a little thunder from Into the Spider-Verse. But I guess multiple Peters is at least a little different from multiple spider-persons.

These are both valid points.

Not seeing any sign of Mac Gargan, either. :smallconfused:

For my part, however, I’m glad to see they’re integrating it with the Far From Home ending instead of dropping that thread.

[Precure]

Reminds me One More Day. :smallwink:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ben-zayb
This looks like it will be a massive spectacle of a movie, unlike what I felt for BW and the trailers for Eternals and Shang-Chi.

My feelings exactly.


Originally Posted by ben-zayb
Anyone have any guesses as to how Strange's spell brought back the old Raimi villains? Did Doc Ock and Gobby forgot that Tom Holland isn't their Peter Parker or something?

Puncturing the veils of the multiverse evidently drew in Spideys and Spidey-villains from parallel realities.

And if Kingpin and Octavia from Spider-Verse are any indication, most Spidey-villains won’t pass up the chance to kill any Spider-Man. Seems likely that alternate-Doc-Ock is not so easily reformed as the version we’ve seen before.


Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Not seeing any sign of Mac Gargan, either.

https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/guardians-star-lord-who.gif


Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
For my part, however, I’m glad to see they’re integrating it with the Far From Home ending instead of dropping that thread.

Absolutely. But speaking of endings—

—I’d be very surprised if we don’t see Wanda show up at the end, if not earlier.

Kind of ambivalent about that, but it would be a natural lead-in to the next Dr. Strange.

[Delicious Taffy]

Honestly, I just hope they don't handle it as roughly as the last Spider-Man 3. Love that movie, but good God was there a little too much going on.

[Wintermoot]

Honestly, I just hope they don't handle it as roughly as the last Spider-Man 3. Love that movie, but good God was there a little too much going on.

You.... loved Spider-man 3?

Sorry but wow. You are literally the first person I've ever heard say they love that movie.


As to the trailer, I'm disappointed in Dr. Strange's characterization as presented. It seems like he is foolishly complicit in casting this terrible spell, even after all he's learned in his own story arc about using magic like this. He casts the spell without explaining to Peter what he needs Peter to do, then when Peter screws it up (by apparently talking outloud) he blames Peter for the spell going awry. What the hell, Doc? This is 100% on you.

Still it's just a trailer. Perhaps it will be presented clearer in the actual movie. I had assumed Peter would go to him to ask for his help, Doc would say no its too dangerous, then Peter would sneak around and do it behind his back, thus ACTUALLY being responsible while both characters acting in character.

[Psyren]

For my part, however, I’m glad to see they’re integrating it with the Far From Home ending instead of dropping that thread.

Was that actually a danger? Why wouldn't they?


Obviously he was casting it at the exact moment Sylvie stabbed He Who Remains and all the timelines got cut loose.

I mean - yes, by definition EVERYTHING happened at that exact moment :smalltongue:

(Or it's perhaps more accurate to point out what didn't happen, i.e. the TVA.)


Honestly, I just hope they don't handle it as roughly as the last Spider-Man 3. Love that movie, but good God was there a little too much going on.

Well, the big advantage of this format is that
they don't have to introduce any of these villains beyond explaining how they end up crossing timelines, and since they all already hate their respective Peters, you don't have to explain that either. In the original Spiderman 3 / ASM 2, every single baddie needed both a backstory and a tie to the main plot, which left no room for the plot itself.

And that was just the villains, SM3 was also trying to introduce Gwen Stacy and deal with Mary Jane's broadway career and her love triangle with Harry and give JJJ and Aunt May stuff to do - it was indeed way too much.

[Wookieetank]

Anyone else find it odd that the inside of the Sanctum Sanctorum is coated in ice?

Doctor Strange does seem a bit out of character/off. Wonder if he's a skrull, or mayhaps mind controlled, or...

Wild speculation ahoy!

[Wintermoot]

Anyone else find it odd that the inside of the Sanctum Sanctorum is coated in ice?


I'm going to GUESS that it will be presented as an aside joke. "Uh what happened here?" "Oh, you know... tuesday" as a way of demonstrating that Doc is ALWAYS busy fighting off one magical intrusion or another. Perhaps from Narnia this time. Or Elsa.

[GloatingSwine]

https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/guardians-star-lord-who.gif


Mac Gargan, aka The Scorpion, was the guy buying weapons on the boat in Spider-Man Homecoming.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Doctor Strange does seem a bit out of character/off. Wonder if he's a skrull, or mayhaps mind controlled, or...

Wild speculation ahoy!

He’s a Loki in clever disguise! :smallbiggrin:


Mac Gargan, aka The Scorpion, was the guy buying weapons on the boat in Spider-Man Homecoming.

This, also, he shows up in the end credits of Homecoming talking to Toomes in prison.

[Aedilred]

That's a long teaser trailer. It also does that thing I hate in trailers where it basically gives you half the plot in summary. "Here's most of the movie in fast-forward so that you don't need to watch it!"

Ugh.

Anyway, I'll probably watch it.

[Psyren]

Anyone else find it odd that the inside of the Sanctum Sanctorum is coated in ice?

Doctor Strange does seem a bit out of character/off. Wonder if he's a skrull, or mayhaps mind controlled, or...

Wild speculation ahoy!

I don't think Skrull given that he's actually using magic, and I don't think their impersonation abilities extend that far. I could be wrong though, I don't have any experience with Secret War/Invasion.

Assuming I'm not, that leaves a few possibilities:

- Variant Strange
- Mordo
- Wanda
- ...a Loki?
- Possessed by... something
- MEPHISTO


Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange.


I'm going to GUESS that it will be presented as an aside joke. "Uh what happened here?" "Oh, you know... tuesday" as a way of demonstrating that Doc is ALWAYS busy fighting off one magical intrusion or another. Perhaps from Narnia this time. Or Elsa.

I agree with this, but it could also be the aftermath of whatever is causing him to behave oddly (see above.) In other words,
It's "just tuesday" but he could have possibly lost.

[Wookieetank]

Or Elsa.
Bwa hahaha, I like it. :smallbiggrin:


He’s a Loki in clever disguise! :smallbiggrin:

More Loki? Yes please.



I agree with this, but it could also be the aftermath of whatever is causing him to behave oddly (see above.) In other words,
It's "just tuesday" but he could have possibly lost.

Between loosing, and most likely sensing/knowing about the Multiverse being birthed, maybe altering the memory of everyone on a single planet in a single universe seems like less of a big deal. *shrug*

[Wintermoot]

I don't think Skrull given that he's actually using magic, and I don't think their impersonation abilities extend that far. I could be wrong though, I don't have any experience with Secret War/Invasion.

Assuming I'm not, that leaves a few possibilities:

- Variant Strange
- Mordo
- Wanda
- ...a Loki?
- Possessed by... something
- MEPHISTO


Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange.



Maybe. i'll be very surprised if this turns out to be an impersonator or evil version of Strange just because I think that's one complication too far for an already complicated movie.

I think this is just a case of the writer of this movie playing up the mischievousness, inflated sense of ability, and anti-authoritarianism of Strange from the beginning of his first movie and playing down the wisdom and balance gained by the end of his first movie/avengers appearances. Strange was certainly portrayed as capable of making rash and unwise decision. And, of course, being too impressed with his own abilities. It just feels like he's learned better. So it feels like a regression. This is Strange as Tony Stark I guess.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Wookieetank
…maybe altering the memory of everyone on a single planet in a single universe seems like less of a big deal.

But what about all those cell phone recordings? Does the spell also erase those?

It’s presented as a memory-altering spell, but does that automatically affect digital memory as well? If not, then there will still be countless phone videos of Peter Parker floating around--not to mention Mysterio's original false claim.

[Psyren]

Maybe. i'll be very surprised if this turns out to be an impersonator or evil version of Strange just because I think that's one complication too far for an already complicated movie.

I think this is just a case of the writer of this movie playing up the mischievousness, inflated sense of ability, and anti-authoritarianism of Strange from the beginning of his first movie and playing down the wisdom and balance gained by the end of his first movie/avengers appearances. Strange was certainly portrayed as capable of making rash and unwise decision. And, of course, being too impressed with his own abilities. It just feels like he's learned better. So it feels like a regression. This is Strange as Tony Stark I guess.

It certainly could just be nothing more than inflated ego / recklessness. But I'm still hoping for some kind of catalyst to bump him back down towards that. Maybe's he's riding a high of having outsmarted Thanos in the end.

[DigoDragon]

I have to agree:
It seems a little weird for Dr Strange of all people to be so eager to pull a One More Day here, and hang the consequences - not just for the cosmos, but even for Peter himself. Part of me can't help but wonder - are we dealing with the right one? Or even Stephen Strange at all?

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

[Wintermoot]

But what about all those cell phone recordings? Does the spell also erase those?

It’s presented as a memory-altering spell, but does that automatically affect digital memory as well? If not, then there will still be countless phone videos of Peter Parker floating around--not to mention Mysterio's original false claim.

Spell wouldn't be very useful if it couldn't handle the little details intrinsically. Magic warps reality, not just memory.

[Ramza00]

You.... loved Spider-man 3?

Sorry but wow. You are literally the first person I've ever heard say they love that movie.


Spider-Man 3 is camp, and was going for camp. It is a mess sure but is that intent, or studio making a mess of everything instead of a simpler narrative?




I think this is just a case of anonymized the writer of this movie playing up the mischievousness, inflated sense of ability, and anti-authoritarianism of Strange from the beginning of his first movie and playing down the wisdom and balance gained by the end of his first movie/avengers appearances. Strange was certainly portrayed as capable of making rash and unwise decision. And, of course, being too impressed with his own abilities. It just feels like he's learned better. So it feels like a regression. This is Strange as Tony Stark I guess.

Strange is literally introduced as a person who tests limits, does not level things alone, is pushy, disobeys Wong, and so on. Hubris is his key flaw. “Why not?” Him doing something stupid, for even if Strange is wiser he is still the same man. He is better at pointing out his own flaw when he sees it in others and can not apply it to himself.


But what about all those cell phone recordings? Does the spell also erase those?

It’s presented as a memory-altering spell, but does that automatically affect digital memory as well? If not, then there will still be countless phone videos of Peter Parker floating around--not to mention Mysterio's original false claim.

We should not assume a specific definition of memory like it is something from René Descartes mind / body dualism. It is magic first, but also in language there are many definitions of memory (also to be mindful / to remember / to remember with its Latin roots.) A trees form it’s shape remembers and is shaped by external pressures. (Axel Erlandson did some fun tree sculptures by gardening)

I would not b surprised if part of the forgetful spell also backtracks and make people forget all the good that Spider-Man has done, as well as some of his menance. Everything is connected after all.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

I do kind of wonder when he stopped looking in Infinity War. He would have had to sit through the five years between the Snap and Endgame to see the victory as it was, did he keep looking for a few years after that, to make sure Thanos didn’t have a half brother willing to drop a moon on Earth or something?

In short: sounds plausible.


Spell wouldn't be very useful if it couldn't handle the little details intrinsically. Magic warps reality, not just memory.

Another possibility is that they just simplified it for the trailer. They’ve edited scenes and dialogue for trailers before, and having Strange ramble on about all the effects of the spell for five minutes would have made it significantly less concise.

[Psyren]

Spider-Man 3 is camp, and was going for camp. It is a mess sure but is that intent, or studio making a mess of everything instead of a simpler narrative?

It was definitely executive meddling, Raimi is on the record saying he didn't want Venom in there at all. Had it just been Sandman + Hobgoblin there would have been a lot more breathing room. Or better yet, introduce black suit Spidey in 3, but then Brock becoming Venom would be the post-credits scene for this one so we can do a whole 4th movie dedicated to the symbiotes.


I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

We don't know that he looked past beating Thanos though, and he no longer has the Time Stone that was powering that ability.

And even if he did, that was prior to the TVA stuff, so who knows what he'd see if he were able to look now.


Strange is literally introduced as a person who tests limits, does not level things alone, is pushy, disobeys Wong, and so on. Hubris is his key flaw. “Why not?” Him doing something stupid, for even if Strange is wiser he is still the same man. He is better at pointing out his own flaw when he sees it in others and can not apply it to himself.

Yes but he also faced that flaw in his own film - given that his pride cost him his old life, cost him Christine, and then further cost him his mentor. Then he overcame that flaw by sacrificing himself repeatedly to keep Dormammu in check. He further exemplified that growth by surrendering the Time Stone to Thanos rather than trying to rely on his own power to keep it safe. So this is at best a step backward, and a reason for that would be helpful.


I would not b surprised if part of the forgetful spell also backtracks and make people forget all the good that Spider-Man has done, as well as some of his menance. Everything is connected after all.

We'll find out for sure, but my reading is that nobody will forget about Spiderman and anything he's done - they just won't tie Peter Parker to those activities anymore. Spiderman fought at the airport in Leipzig, Spiderman killed El Hombre Mysterio etc.

And yes - I do think the spell will cover electronic recordings, written accounts etc. It would be pretty useless otherwise.

[ben-zayb]

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

For what it's worth, Strange seems to have a different outfit in the train scene. Maybe it's not a Skrull, but possibly something multiversal is already at work in the background even before the spell? A Strange variant sounds ridiculous enough that I want to see it.

[Ramza00]

Yes but he also faced that flaw in his own film - given that his pride cost him his old life, cost him Christine, and then further cost him his mentor. Then he overcame that flaw by sacrificing himself repeatedly to keep Dormammu in check. He further exemplified that growth by surrendering the Time Stone to Thanos rather than trying to rely on his own power to keep it safe. So this is at best a step backward, and a reason for that would be helpful.

See this is a difference of opinion. In my mind we do not overcome our flaws, much like we do not overcome / cure anxiety. We grapple with it each day, it is a struggle, but that is what being present is, that is what presence is. Strange did not cure his hubris, by my reading, as much as he did not cure his hands. He learned to not look for black and white answers that he “wishes” for, and that he can still be a positive presence in a messy world.

Strange did not fear death or craving success, he feared failure and he used arrogance as a defense mechanism. Success was a defense mechanism for he could not grapple with his fear, he could not tolerate the pain of constant pain and repetition, the totality sensation when one feels like a failure. But he could endure it, again and again and again, endlessly once he surrender his ego (but not overcoming his flaws)

The Ancient One speech would not be meaningful if he can cure his flaws, and then erase them like they do not exist.



We'll find out for sure, but my reading is that nobody will forget about Spiderman and anything he's done - they just won't tie Peter Parker to those activities anymore. Spiderman fought at the airport in Leipzig, Spiderman killed El Hombre Mysterio etc.

And yes - I do think the spell will cover electronic recordings, written accounts etc. It would be pretty useless otherwise.

Sure that was the intent of the spell, but things did not go according to plan. Likewise we can not assume that Strange is perfect at gauging the effects of the spell if everything went according to plan. He does test limits after all, and we can not always see beyond certain points.

—————

In Stranges own movie it was about the greater good and selfishness, and how fear can prevent us from cooperating and we turned to “wishes” like dormammu to deal with an unbearable dysphoric pain that we choose not to bear. Likewise we have a plot of complete and utter manipulation of The Ancient One lying and deceiving for the greater good.

Could Strange be doing this with Peter? Not recruiting him to his magic academy, but seeing Peter as a force of good and is trying to wish away Peter’s problems in order to recruit him and make him work in concert with what Strange sees as the greater good? Can Strange screw up in the process due to his own hubris and pushing the limits to the point where there are consequences Strange did not foresee?

[Psyren]

See this is a difference of opinion. In my mind we do not overcome our flaws, much like we do not overcome / cure anxiety. We grapple with it each day, it is a struggle, but that is what being present is, that is what presence is. Strange did not cure his hubris, by my reading, as much as he did not cure his hands. He learned to not look for black and white answers that he “wishes” for, and that he can still be a positive presence in a messy world.

Strange did not fear death or craving success, he feared failure and he used arrogance as a defense mechanism. Success was a defense mechanism for he could not grapple with his fear, he could not tolerate the pain of constant pain and repetition, the totality sensation when one feels like a failure. But he could endure it, again and again and again, endlessly once he surrender his ego (but not overcoming his flaws)

The Ancient One speech would not be meaningful if he can cure his flaws, and then erase them like they do not exist.

Oh, I don't think his flaw is "cured" either. But to just relapse back into it without any kind of external reason or pressure makes any kind of character growth feel hollow or meaningless. Thus my hope that such a reason is revealed in the film proper.

It would be like if Steve Rogers suddenly put all his faith in the chain of command instead of his own moral compass again, or Thor went back to hitting first and worrying about the consequences later. Those character flaws can resurface, but there usually needs to be an external shock of some kind, like Thor losing a family member.



Sure that was the intent of the spell, but things did not go according to plan. Likewise we can not assume that Strange is perfect at gauging the effects of the spell if everything went according to plan. He does test limits after all, and we can not always see beyond certain points.

He's certainly not perfect, but he himself seems to be aware of the dangers of this spell when he mentions what a big unknown the multiverse is. So ideally, he'd have a big reason of his own for taking this risk, beyond just "hey I remember that nice kid from the spaceship, he's having trouble at school now, let's rewrite reality."



In Stranges own movie it was about the greater good and selfishness, and how fear can prevent us from cooperating and we turned to “wishes” like dormammu to deal with an unbearable dysphoric pain that we choose not to bear. Likewise we have a plot of complete and utter manipulation of The Ancient One lying and deceiving for the greater good.

Could Strange be doing this with Peter? Not recruiting him to his magic academy, but seeing Peter as a force of good and is trying to wish away Peter’s problems in order to recruit him and make him work in concert with what Strange sees as the greater good? Can Strange screw up in the process due to his own hubris and pushing the limits to the point where there are consequences Strange did not foresee?

I hope not. I don't see how wanting to recruit Peter squares with hubris as a flaw. He certainly doesn't need Peter* and has every reason to not want to include him in the dangerous wizard stuff.

*Stephen Strange might not, but someone else masquerading as him might

[Zalabim]

I could see the spell (un)intentionally creating new spider-mans/new peter parkers to maintain the separation between the two identities every time Tom Holland tries to spill the beans. So the spell might work as it's supposed to and still screw things up.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Something odd I noticed - in the scene with the train, Dr. Strange isn’t wearing the Cloak of Levitation. :smallconfused:

[Prime32]

One other possibility: Strange was already planning to cast a world-changing spell for some reason*, and decided to incorporate Spidey's request into it. Or he'd been researching a spell like that, and the request gave him an excuse to try it out.

* E.g. "I killed an ice demon but it went splat all over reality and it would take forever to find and clear all the residue by hand"

[Keltest]

One other possibility: Strange was already planning to cast a world-changing spell for some reason, and decided to incorporate Spidey's request into it. Or he'd been researching a spell like that, and the request gave him an excuse to try it out.

Or maybe he just figured that Spider-man being considered a public enemy under a false pretext was a bad thing that he genuinely wanted to fix. As he notes, Peter helped fight Thanos and save half the universe. Helping him to actually operate isnt exactly an unreasonable thing in and of itself.

[tyckspoon]

I could see the spell (un)intentionally creating new spider-mans/new peter parkers to maintain the separation between the two identities every time Tom Holland tries to spill the beans. So the spell might work as it's supposed to and still screw things up.

So, my guess here is the spell doesn't affect 'memory' at all. That's just the "look, you don't have the knowledge necessary to understand what I'm really doing here, so here's a lie that will be close enough that you'll stop asking questions while I do this really complicated and demanding thing" explanation.

I think the spell is a dimensional shift, probably aided by the portal-magic the slingrings use. Strange was going to It's a Wonderful Life Parker - send him to a version of the world where his secret had not yet been revealed, let him find out that there are parts of that world he finds unbearable, eventually he'll go to the Strange of that alternate universe and be sent back home, lesson learned, now we can focus on solving the problem instead of avoiding it.

So how do you figure out what dimension you go to? Tell the spell what you're looking for, let it search for it. Starts with one really simple request: Find a dimension where Spiderman's identity isn't public knowledge. Maybe one where Spiderman never existed in the first place. Plenty of ways you can meet that, if that's the only requirement and you're willing to give up some of the things Parker likes about the current world.

And then Parker starts adding new terms. Spiderman must be a secret to the public AND his best friend is Ned (not Ted or Dan who are very similar to Ned..) AND Ned and Aunt May and Mary Jane are still alive AND they do know he's Spiderman AND they're ok with it AND ...

And now the spell has to find a much, much, much more specific set of conditions. Possibly ones that do not exist, even with the multiverse and all its variants and timelines. So it's going to fail, it doesn't have enough power to do that or can't get a valid result within the permitted time, it's gotta do something else. What does it do? In this case, it seems to start linking together worlds that contain elements of what Peter wants. Can't find one world with everything? Ok, here's one where the public doesn't know you're Spiderman, here's another where Aunt May hasn't died, here's one where Ned is still alive.. connect those together so you have 'one' world where everything is true! And now you have a lot of multiversal cross-bleed which is a vaguely unspecified Bad Thing and Strange has to clean that up and ideally Spiderman doesn't get himself killed or multiversal Negative Space Wedgie'd in the process.

[Psyren]

Or maybe he just figured that Spider-man being considered a public enemy under a false pretext was a bad thing that he genuinely wanted to fix. As he notes, Peter helped fight Thanos and save half the universe. Helping him to actually operate isnt exactly an unreasonable thing in and of itself.

It looks like Peter's name was cleared though (given that he's not in jail and all), so the issue now is being an unwanted celebrity and the effect that's having on his aunt and friends. Not great certainly, but Earth-199999 is a universe where Peter doesn't have a massive rogues' gallery running around to endanger them at every turn either - and even if he did, there are many other public heroes not to mention SHIELD and SWORD who have his back and can help with that. Given that state of affairs, rewriting reality is a massive step especially if it can potentially undermine one or both of those other safeguards - which it looks like is almost exactly what ends up happening.

[Ramza00]

Oh, I don't think his flaw is "cured" either. But to just relapse back into it without any kind of external reason or pressure makes any kind of character growth feel hollow or meaningless. Thus my hope that such a reason is revealed in the film proper.

It would be like if Steve Rogers suddenly put all his faith in the chain of command instead of his own moral compass again, or Thor went back to hitting first and worrying about the consequences later. Those character flaws can resurface, but there usually needs to be an external shock of some kind, like Thor losing a family member.



He's certainly not perfect, but he himself seems to be aware of the dangers of this spell when he mentions what a big unknown the multiverse is. So ideally, he'd have a big reason of his own for taking this risk, beyond just "hey I remember that nice kid from the spaceship, he's having trouble at school now, let's rewrite reality."

Like I said earlier I think we have different opinions on how much Stephen has grown (and that is okay), in my opinion Stephen is grappling with his flaw and has NOT* demonstrated he has had 3 or more growth cycles, he is a work in progress.

Edit: Sorry this originally said Now when I meant Not.



I hope not. I don't see how wanting to recruit Peter squares with hubris as a flaw. He certainly doesn't need Peter* and has every reason to not want to include him in the dangerous wizard stuff.

*Stephen Strange might not, but someone else masquerading as him might

I am not saying Stephen is trying to make Peter a wizard’s apprentice. There are many ways to contribute, just that Stephen wants allies to help with his great purpose. Stephen and Peters main moral themes are similar enough at first glance that they are mirrors with one another that critique each other. One is top down the other is bottom up when it comes to size. As above / so below, and thus a cooperation movie will help both of them grow and remind each other of lessons they both need to learn.

[Psyren]

Like I said earlier I think we have different opinions on how much Stephen has grown (and that is okay), in my opinion Stephen is grappling with his flaw and has now demonstrated he has had 3 or more growth cycles, he is a work in progress.

Fair enough. We'll see what, if anything, catalyzed this behavior :smallsmile:

[JadedDM]

Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange.

I dunno, is it? This is the same guy who got into a car accident while texting and driving.

[M1982]

I don't think Skrull given that he's actually using magic, and I don't think their impersonation abilities extend that far. I could be wrong though, I don't have any experience with Secret War/Invasion.

Assuming I'm not, that leaves a few possibilities:

- Variant Strange
- Mordo
- Wanda
- ...a Loki?
- Possessed by... something
- MEPHISTO


Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange. You're missing the most obvious solution:

It was Agatha all along

Also of course the spell would take care of phones. After all in their memory is where they store there data ;)

[Anteros]

Strange was perfectly willing to cast this spell for Peter in the comics, so it's not that much of a stretch for him to do it in a movie.

Not really sure why MCU insists this character is Peter Parker when he shares absolutely 0 personality or character traits with him outside of having spider powers. I would enjoy these movies more if they were actually about Miles Morales instead of Miles pretending to be Peter Parker.

Regardless, it does look like a fun spectacle as long as you don't think too hard, which is all the MCU tries or needs to be.

Also, pretty sure Strange can easily solo any version of the sinister six you want to throw at him. Wonder what excuse they'll use to sideline him for the fights.

[Psyren]

I dunno, is it? This is the same guy who got into a car accident while texting and driving.

I assume you know what a "character arc" is.


You're missing the most obvious solution:

It was Agatha all along

That's a longer way around to saying Wanda which I covered :smalltongue:



Also of course the spell would take care of phones. After all in their memory is where they store there data ;)

Ha! :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

Also, pretty sure Strange can easily solo any version of the sinister six you want to throw at him. Wonder what excuse they'll use to sideline him for the fights.

Same thing that they were doing with Strange in Endgame. A water dam suddenly burst in that big giant fight so he was "occupied." Likewise Wong and others were creating shields when the big spaceship shows up blasting things.

Without those things Strange (or other Sorcerer) could have sent the gauntlet away as a defensive maneuver. Likewise Strange (or other Sorcerer) could move reinforcements around in pincher maneuvers, use gateways to slice organs, imprison people in the mirror dimension (Thanos does not have the power gauntlet to break it), or allow allies to focus energy weapons all in 1 big burst and direct it at specific targets.

Strange and company are 15th or so level wizards with 8th level spell effects (and specific 9s), thus you either have lucky attacks that knock them out for they are squishy, or you have sudden luck problems only a wizard can solve and this occupies their concentration.

------

Also a similar thing happen to Wanda in Civil War for the same reason.

Side-note it was a travesty we did not get Ebony Maw of the Black Order vs Wanda in Endgame doing a dual telekinetic battle where Wanda has to win by being creative. We could have shown off her "luck manipulative powers" for at the time Wanda just had Telekinesis and Telepathy (no magic, teleportation, reality warping, or astral projection yet), and Ebony Maw would never allow an enemy to get close enough to do telepathy / you can handwave he could fight it off.

[Psyren]

Endgame Wanda would have bodied Ebony Maw, she was fresh from having lost Vision and peak angry. If Thanos had sent in the children instead of an airstrike, it would have been like Angry Gohan vs. the Spice Boys

[Ramza00]

Endgame Wanda would have bodied Ebony Maw, she was fresh from having lost Vision and peak angry. If Thanos had sent in the children instead of an airstrike, it would have been like Angry Gohan vs. the Spice Boys

Let me have my 20 second Wanda fight before she gets mad at Thanos. :smalltongue:

[Kareeah_Indaga]

At about 2:27, does it look to anyone else like the sandstorm is blocking the lighting bolt?

[Palanan]

Not sure--it looks like the lightning is kicking up a cloud of dust and debris, just short of Spidey.

Alternatively, the dust cloud could be interposing itself between Spidey and the lightning, but that's not my sense of what's happening. It looks more as if the lightning is walking its way towards Spidey and churning up a cloud as it goes. I really don't have the sense that the dust in this scene is moving of its own volition.

[DigoDragon]

I do kind of wonder when he stopped looking in Infinity War. He would have had to sit through the five years between the Snap and Endgame to see the victory as it was, did he keep looking for a few years after that, to make sure Thanos didn’t have a half brother willing to drop a moon on Earth or something?

Hmm, well if he found the one winning path, then he had to have viewed at least the five years until getting to the events of Infinity War. It's probable that he would have learned that he'd permanently lose the time stone in the process of those events.

What are the chances, then, that he'd be curious to look a little farther into the future to get the most of his last chance with the stone? I'd say decently good.

But if not, Dr. Strange is a bit confident in himself so I could be wrong in my idea and he's casting the spell in Spiderman NWH because he can.



And even if he did, that was prior to the TVA stuff, so who knows what he'd see if he were able to look now.

The wibbly-wobbly bit about this is that that the events of Loki start at the end of the first Avengers movie. The fact that Dr. Strange saw several million futures and that in Endgame they killed an alternate timeline Thanos as well as their own tells me that the multiverse was well established by the time Strange was looking.



For what it's worth, Strange seems to have a different outfit in the train scene. Maybe it's not a Skrull, but possibly something multiversal is already at work in the background even before the spell? A Strange variant sounds ridiculous enough that I want to see it.

Eh, several heroes get costume changes over the course of subsequent movies, so I don't personally put stock into this theory.



Something odd I noticed - in the scene with the train, Dr. Strange isn’t wearing the Cloak of Levitation. :smallconfused:

It's plausible that the cloak is smothering someone they were fighting on the train. Could be other reasons though, but I would guess that it came off in a fight to grapple someone.

[Dragonus45]

The wibbly-wobbly bit about this is that that the events of Loki start at the end of the first Avengers movie. The fact that Dr. Strange saw several million futures and that in Endgame they killed an alternate timeline Thanos as well as their own tells me that the multiverse was well established by the time Strange was looking.


That Loki's person frame of reference effectively "begins" at the end of the first Avengers movie but the actual events of the series itself take place both across the timeline entirely and also in various special realms that exist entirely outside any possible frame of reference. Who knows when the multiverse is technically established to exist? Arguably it already always had the moment it started.

[Psyren]

At about 2:27, does it look to anyone else like the sandstorm is blocking the lighting bolt?


Not sure--it looks like the lightning is kicking up a cloud of dust and debris, just short of Spidey.

Alternatively, the dust cloud could be interposing itself between Spidey and the lightning, but that's not my sense of what's happening. It looks more as if the lightning is walking its way towards Spidey and churning up a cloud as it goes. I really don't have the sense that the dust in this scene is moving of its own volition.

There are two "lightning and sand" shots - one at 2:13, and the one you two are discussing at 2:27. The latter one could potentially be dust being thrown/churned up by the lightning, but the former definitely isn't - the sand is swirling in the air before the lightning even touches the ground. Personally I don't think it's a coincidence that both times we see lightning we see sand as well.


Hmm, well if he found the one winning path, then he had to have viewed at least the five years until getting to the events of Infinity War. It's probable that he would have learned that he'd permanently lose the time stone in the process of those events.

What are the chances, then, that he'd be curious to look a little farther into the future to get the most of his last chance with the stone? I'd say decently good.

I assume you meant the events of Endgame in the bold bit there.

However, you're also assuming he can do that. The time stone he has was present for the events of Endgame, by virtue of having been borrowed from the past and used for the Third Snap (to bring everyone back) and the Fourth Snap (to kill Thanos and his army), then returned to the past of that same timeline without creating a branch. So seeing far enough to know "we succeed in undoing the Snap" doesn't mean he saw anything past Endgame where there is no more time stone.



The wibbly-wobbly bit about this is that that the events of Loki start at the end of the first Avengers movie. The fact that Dr. Strange saw several million futures and that in Endgame they killed an alternate timeline Thanos as well as their own tells me that the multiverse was well established by the time Strange was looking.

See above - that he saw a bunch of possibilities and identified the one with the Third and Fourth Snaps as the "right one" doesn't tell us how far past those events he Saw.


That Loki's person frame of reference effectively "begins" at the end of the first Avengers movie but the actual events of the series itself take place both across the timeline entirely and also in various special realms that exist entirely outside any possible frame of reference. Who knows when the multiverse is technically established to exist? Arguably it already always had the moment it started.

This too. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's quite possible that everything Strange saw with his divinations, however far they went, is now invalid.

[tomandtish]

It looks like Peter's name was cleared though (given that he's not in jail and all), so the issue now is being an unwanted celebrity and the effect that's having on his aunt and friends. Not great certainly, but Earth-199999 is a universe where Peter doesn't have a massive rogues' gallery running around to endanger them at every turn either - and even if he did, there are many other public heroes not to mention SHIELD and SWORD who have his back and can help with that. Given that state of affairs, rewriting reality is a massive step especially if it can potentially undermine one or both of those other safeguards - which it looks like is almost exactly what ends up happening.

Alternatively, he could be out on bail pending trial. There are probably enough other heroes who are willing to vouch for him (and he did help save the universe) that he could probably get bail.

[Ramza00]

Alternatively, he could be out on bail pending trial. There are probably enough other heroes who are willing to vouch for him (and he did help save the universe) that he could probably get bail.

Having War Machine vouch for you is probably a better advocate in front of a judge than Tony Stark.

( thinks of the Iron Man 2 congress scene, but there are dozens of other good examples )

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Alternatively, he could be out on bail pending trial. There are probably enough other heroes who are willing to vouch for him (and he did help save the universe) that he could probably get bail.

This was my thought too. It would give a bit of tension to the first act, before everything goes haywire.

[Anteros]

Or the spell Strange casts changes things. Hard to press charges on someone when you don't know who they are.

[Ramza00]

Can someone explain to me how / why people think Dr. Strange is a Skrull?

If we had a Skrull Spellcaster, wouldn't he pick something else if he were doing a world changing spell?

[Wintermoot]

Can someone explain to me how / why people think Dr. Strange is a Skrull?

Sure.

A portion of Forum Goers, including me, feel that the Dr. Strange in the preview is acting somewhat out of character.

A subset of that group, NOT including me, feel that this will turn out to NOT be Dr. Strange but someone masquerading as Strange, or someone mind-controlling Strange and that's why he's acting out of character.

A subset of that group hypothesis that the imposter might be a Skrull.

Explained.

[SteveMB]

Alternatively, he could be out on bail pending trial. There are probably enough other heroes who are willing to vouch for him (and he did help save the universe) that he could probably get bail.

Also, he wouldn't be on trial in New York for a murder he allegedly committed in London in any case. Extradition would potentially introduce some delays.

[Psyren]

I feel like extradition being on the table is a pretty good reason to NOT grant bail. But we'll see.


Can someone explain to me how / why people think Dr. Strange is a Skrull?

If we had a Skrull Spellcaster, wouldn't he pick something else if he were doing a world changing spell?

IIRC Strange has been impersonated by a Skrull in the comics, magic and all. But I would much prefer the variant/possessed/impostor approach.

[Dargaron]

Sure.

A portion of Forum Goers, including me, feel that the Dr. Strange in the preview is acting somewhat out of character.

A subset of that group, NOT including me, feel that this will turn out to NOT be Dr. Strange but someone masquerading as Strange, or someone mind-controlling Strange and that's why he's acting out of character.

A subset of that group hypothesis that the imposter might be a Skrull.

Explained.

To build on this, Marvel has already used the "x character was secretly a Skrull" to poke fun at a character acting out of character (in a way that was necessary for the movie to happen) in a related movie to this one.

I'm talking about Far From Home, where the end-credits scene showed that "Nick Fury" was actually a Skrull the whole time.

So the idea has already been planted in the viewer's mind, and Marvel is known for taking casual throwbacks and making them plot points. I don't think we're going to have Skrull!Strange, but I can see the train of thought.

[DigoDragon]

That Loki's person frame of reference effectively "begins" at the end of the first Avengers movie but the actual events of the series itself take place both across the timeline entirely and also in various special realms that exist entirely outside any possible frame of reference. Who knows when the multiverse is technically established to exist? Arguably it already always had the moment it started.

Again, "wibbly-wobbly". I think the term fits perfectly here.



I assume you meant the events of Endgame in the bold bit there.

However, you're also assuming he can do that. .

Yes, I meant Endgame. That typo is on me.

And yes, there are assumptions here. I mean, we all are speculating theories here (it's a big part of the discussion, no?). ;)

Until the movie says that Strange couldn't do that, the possibility remains that he could have.



Having War Machine vouch for you is probably a better advocate in front of a judge than Tony Stark.

If Tony believed in me the way he belied in Parker, I personally would pick Tony to vouch for me. Would it be a hot mess in the court room?

Probably! But somehow Tony manages to make it work out in the end. ... except maybe for the Ultron incident, but it was that one time. XD

[Keltest]

Tony never ended up in Jail even when he was actively engaging in highly illegal international military action. You could do far, far worse than to have Stark in your legal corner.

Although it begs the question. Parker isnt officially an Avenger, but he is Stark's protege and presumably is officially registered under the Sokovia Accords. So maybe he's not in trouble for the death of Mysterio in and of itself, but for going off the books, just giving away all that tech without consulting the office, and never calling the incident in. And he gets let out because he did try and ask for help and Nick Fury shut him down.

[Ramza00]

But can people explain to me why a Skrull magician choose to cast a world ending spell, a spell that he volunteers when asked ( he could always say no ), where he gets pushback from his colleagues Wong, and he still does it.

Why would a Skrull who is trying to remain secret do such a thing? A Skrull must have a goal even if the goal is just to remain secret, what goal is this furthering? And why didn’t he do world changing spell prior to Peter asking him? What makes this specific request special?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Keltest
Parker isnt officially an Avenger….

He’s not in residence upstate, but Stark did tell him, “You’re an Avenger now,” at 1:04:55 in Infinity War. Sounds official enough.

[Wintermoot]

But can people explain to me why a Skrull magician choose to cast a world ending spell, a spell that he volunteers when asked ( he could always say no ), where he gets pushback from his colleagues Wong, and he still does it.

Why would a Skrull who is trying to remain secret do such a thing? A Skrull must have a goal even if the goal is just to remain secret, what goal is this furthering? And why didn’t he do world changing spell prior to Peter asking him? What makes this specific request special?

It's a WILD and BASELESS speculation. Why would we need to explain... you know what, never mind.

Here's why. The Skrull WANTS to end life on earth to make way for Skrull colonization. You see unlike the nice skrulls from Captain Marvel, this Skrull works for the evil skrulls that want to colonize earth. However, when they super-skrulled him up, he ended up with powers over Magic which have all kinds of dumb rules they didn't account for. Why oh why couldn't he just get Thor powers or Giant-man powers. Why did he have to end up with ridiculous Dr. Strange powers.

He tried casting a spell to destroy all life and it didn't work. But he figured out he needs a focus, a well-meaning shlub to make an ill-conceived wish that can power the magic.

So when Peter comes asking for a simple "make everyone forget" spell he realizes this is a chance to use Peter as the focus for this spell.

As an aside, this also allows him to pass the buck, the shift the blame. So that when anyone comes looking for who did this terrible thing, he can point them to Peter instead of himself.

So he starts casting the spell but the Peter starts interrupting. The Skrull didn't anticipate that he focus could affect the spell JUST BY TALKING. If only he understood these whack dumb powers better. So at the end it DOESN'T wipe out all the humans, just does something else stupid. Rips open space time and dumps a bunch of multiversal garbage into the world.

There. That's why. That's your answer.

[Psyren]

But can people explain to me why a Skrull magician choose to cast a world ending spell, a spell that he volunteers when asked ( he could always say no ), where he gets pushback from his colleagues Wong, and he still does it.

Why would a Skrull who is trying to remain secret do such a thing? A Skrull must have a goal even if the goal is just to remain secret, what goal is this furthering? And why didn’t he do world changing spell prior to Peter asking him? What makes this specific request special?

I am personally against the "Skrull Mage" theory. But something... strange... is almost certainly going on with Strange in that trailer.

If it ends up just being "he felt extra cocky today" then I'm going to be disappointed.

[False God]

And by adding the word "Multiverse" they transformed their incompetence into genius.

[Psyren]

The line between incompetence and genius is branding :smallbiggrin:

[Mechalich]

And by adding the word "Multiverse" they transformed their incompetence into genius.

I wouldn't call it genius, more like acceptance.

Comic book style superhero worlds fundamentally don't work. They lack verisimilitude is massive ways that there simply is no easy way to write around. It's possible to write around this for a while, and Marvel materialized a truly massive bag of tricks in order to do so, but eventually the strain grows too great. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, a show widely criticized for issues that in most cases traced to the impossibility of building a coherent backdrop to sustain its story, represents the first real casualty of this issue. Marvel smartly, rather than trying to sustain a coherent storyline, has decided to break coherency entirely an embrace the madness (to some extent they were already doing this, with movies like Thor: Ragnarok). At some point going weird is the only option, and honestly, I give Marvel credit for going weird in a big way, even if it will mean their future stories are rather less approachable than before.

[False God]

I wouldn't call it genius, more like acceptance.

Comic book style superhero worlds fundamentally don't work. They lack verisimilitude is massive ways that there simply is no easy way to write around. It's possible to write around this for a while, and Marvel materialized a truly massive bag of tricks in order to do so, but eventually the strain grows too great. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, a show widely criticized for issues that in most cases traced to the impossibility of building a coherent backdrop to sustain its story, represents the first real casualty of this issue. Marvel smartly, rather than trying to sustain a coherent storyline, has decided to break coherency entirely an embrace the madness (to some extent they were already doing this, with movies like Thor: Ragnarok). At some point going weird is the only option, and honestly, I give Marvel credit for going weird in a big way, even if it will mean their future stories are rather less approachable than before.

Actually, I was referring to all of Sony's attempts at a Spiderman franchise up to this point.

[Psyren]

Actually, I was referring to all of Sony's attempts at a Spiderman franchise up to this point.

Ohhh you meant Marvel turned Sony's incompetence into genius.


even if it will mean their future stories are rather less approachable than before.

How so?

[Eldan]

Sam Raimi's Spiderman was 19 years ago now. Not everyone will have seen it, including many teenagers, who are a main audience. I mean, it's probably watchable without knowing exactly who Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus from these movies are, but still.

[Eldan]

I am personally against the "Skrull Mage" theory. But something... strange... is almost certainly going on with Strange in that trailer.

If it ends up just being "he felt extra cocky today" then I'm going to be disappointed.

With Multiverse of Madness coming up, it might be to foreshadow that some kind of Macguffin or villain is influencing his mind already?

[Azuresun]

I am personally against the "Skrull Mage" theory. But something... strange... is almost certainly going on with Strange in that trailer.

If it ends up just being "he felt extra cocky today" then I'm going to be disappointed.

If they're basing this on the One More Day comics plotline, which also featured Spiderman trying to find a way to erase knowledge of his secret identity, then

my money's on Mephisto, and introducing a wish-granting devil is a lot less jarring if Dr Strange is also involved.

(And considering how poorly received One More Day was, that's a pretty gutsy move, but Civil War also improved greatly in adaptation.)

[ben-zayb]

I swear, Feige may be deliberately dropping Mephisto Easter Eggs for the entire Phase 4 going forward just to roll with the meme. Then, he'll end up somewhere way down the line like Phase 7-8 instead of sooner.

[DigoDragon]

If we wanna go really out there in crazy speculation, maybe Marvel stole a page from Rick and Morty and the entirety of No Way Home is in an alternate timeline.

Though my saner idea now is perhaps there's two Dr. Stranges in play, and Peter is fighting one of them.

[Dragonus45]

It could be a Mysterio thing. He was notable in the comics for actually being his own counterpart in the Ultimate universe.I just sent a robot version of himself over.

[Psyren]

It could be a Mysterio thing. He was notable in the comics for actually being his own counterpart in the Ultimate universe.I just sent a robot version of himself over.

If this ends with us getting another Mysterio back from the Multiverse somehow, I'm all for it!


Sam Raimi's Spiderman was 19 years ago now. Not everyone will have seen it, including many teenagers, who are a main audience. I mean, it's probably watchable without knowing exactly who Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus from these movies are, but still.

Teens matter certainly, but the vast majority of Disney's money doesn't come from the films. It comes from the theme parks and resorts (https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/investor-relations/#reports), and 20/30/40-somethings are the ones with the disposable income to go to those (with their families), not teenagers. The movies are a profit center sure, but their primary purpose is to provide the attractions that pull people, in droves, onto that very expensive property.

Ergo, expect the main movies to cater to Gen Y (and X) more than Gen Z. That means seeing things like Raimi callbacks in a 2021 trailer with no explanation given for the younger fans, who they're sure can go google who that guy was at the end if they don't already know.


If they're basing this on the One More Day comics plotline, which also featured Spiderman trying to find a way to erase knowledge of his secret identity, then

my money's on Mephisto, and introducing a wish-granting devil is a lot less jarring if Dr Strange is also involved.

(And considering how poorly received One More Day was, that's a pretty gutsy move, but Civil War also improved greatly in adaptation.)

Actually, OMD was about Peter trying to bring Aunt May back to life. Granted, her death was a direct result of his identity becoming public, but Peter going back into hiding was a side-effect of the spell rather than his reason for seeking it out like it is here.

And notably, in that comic, Dr. Strange turned him down saying that what he was after was too dangerous to attempt. Similarly, Reed Richards couldn't save her either. He ended up knowingly taking help from Mephisto there, as opposed to whatever hoodwink might be happening here. That might make all the difference - the fact that Peter really shouldn't be the person trusting Mephisto of all people was a big reason people hated OMD.

Another reason audiences and critics hated OMD was the Doylist reason for its existence - the writers being sick of writing around Peter's marriage to MJ, Stan Lee and the fans who liked it be damned. Another cost of the spell was that Mephisto ate Peter and MJ's marriage, leaving him single and swinging free (literally in some cases.) I never had a dog in that particular race but for those who were invested it was something of a betrayal. As they aren't married in the MCU, that won't be an issue here.


With Multiverse of Madness coming up, it might be to foreshadow that some kind of Macguffin or villain is influencing his mind already?

Which might also help explain one of the most common complaints I kept seeing about WandaVision, namely where was he when Chaos Magic was running rampant next door to his own state?

[Dragonus45]

If this ends with us getting another Mysterio back from the Multiverse somehow, I'm all for it!


My bet that if it is Mysterio somehow, it's the member of his team who recorded everything and outed Peter at the end who is actually from the multiverse which was how he fed that line to the patsy in the suit.

[The Glyphstone]

Has Marvel done so many deceptive trailers that we are just completely discounting that this might be accurate? Strange works a spell that is dangerous but within his abilities, except Peter disrupts it by throwing in a bunch of extra complications and the result is bad?

[Wintermoot]

Has Marvel done so many deceptive trailers that we are just completely discounting that this might be accurate? Strange works a spell that is dangerous but within his abilities, except Peter disrupts it by throwing in a bunch of extra complications and the result is bad?

No, that's exactly what I think is happening.

I just think that

a> the character growth of Strange through the movies so far should've precluded him agreeing to cast the spell,
b> he should've explained what he needed from Peter before he started casting
c> its cheap that he then apparently blames Peter after it goes awry.

However, it may play differently in the actual movie. I'm basing my objections completely on a cut up trailer. I have enough faith in Marvel to do better in the actual movie.

And even if it DOES play out exactly that way, I can accept that the writer of THIS movie writes Strange more in line with his early characterization from Strange 1.

[Mystic Muse]

Actually, OMD was about Peter trying to bring Aunt May back to life. Granted, her death was a direct result of his identity becoming public, but Peter going back into hiding was a side-effect of the spell rather than his reason for seeking it out like it is here.

And notably, in that comic, Dr. Strange turned him down saying that what he was after was too dangerous to attempt. Similarly, Reed Richards couldn't save her either. He ended up knowingly taking help from Mephisto there, as opposed to whatever hoodwink might be happening here. That might make all the difference - the fact that Peter really shouldn't be the person trusting Mephisto of all people was a big reason people hated OMD.

Another reason audiences and critics hated OMD was the Doylist reason for its existence - the writers being sick of writing around Peter's marriage to MJ, Stan Lee and the fans who liked it be damned. Another cost of the spell was that Mephisto ate Peter and MJ's marriage, leaving him single and swinging free (literally in some cases.) I never had a dog in that particular race but for those who were invested it was something of a betrayal. As they aren't married in the MCU, that won't be an issue here.


Wasn't she just on life support from a bullet wound, not dead? Something plenty of people Spiderman has contact with in-universe should be able to fix in moments, without accepting a deal from someone whose name basically means "Destroyer and Liar"?

Having her be ouright dead so that Peter would HAVE to get Supernatural help sounds less dumb.

[Dragonus45]

Wasn't she just on life support from a bullet wound, not dead? Something plenty of people Spiderman has contact with in-universe should be able to fix in moments, without accepting a deal from someone whose name basically means "Destroyer and Liar"?

Having her be ouright dead so that Peter would HAVE to get Supernatural help sounds less dumb.

Magical healing can be finicky, look at what happened in the universe where they soled Mar-Vell's cancer after all.

[Psyren]

Wasn't she just on life support from a bullet wound, not dead? Something plenty of people Spiderman has contact with in-universe should be able to fix in moments, without accepting a deal from someone whose name basically means "Destroyer and Liar"?

Having her be ouright dead so that Peter would HAVE to get Supernatural help sounds less dumb.

It was shorthand; yes, not actually dead. (Which of course made Mephisto being The Only Entity Who Could Possibly Help feel even dumber.)


Has Marvel done so many deceptive trailers that we are just completely discounting that this might be accurate? Strange works a spell that is dangerous but within his abilities, except Peter disrupts it by throwing in a bunch of extra complications and the result is bad?

I'm not *completely* discounting anything, I just know which scenario I'd personally prefer.



And even if it DOES play out exactly that way, I can accept that the writer of THIS movie writes Strange more in line with his early characterization from Strange 1.

Yeah - I wouldn't be overly happy about it but I'd accept it.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Has Marvel done so many deceptive trailers that we are just completely discounting that this might be accurate?

I’m not discounting it, but until we know which bits are the fabrications we have to work with the information we’re given. If we assume everything is false, there’s nothing to analyze, and that’s no fun.

[Mystic Muse]

It was shorthand; yes, not actually dead. (Which of course made Mephisto being The Only Entity Who Could Possibly Help feel even dumber.)

Yeah. There's no reason that a lot of the peiole he contacted about helping her would not have been able to help with a mundane gunshot wound. That was my only point, and I'm glad I have not been misinformed about how completely dumb One More Day is on every level.

[Psyren]

Yeah. There's no reason that a lot of the peiole he contacted about helping her would not have been able to help with a mundane gunshot wound. That was my only point, and I'm glad I have not been misinformed about how completely dumb One More Day is on every level.

Yep - they started from where they wanted to end up (Single Peter with intact Secret Identity) and worked backwards, rather than figuring out what circumstance would organically drive Peter Parker to make a literal deal with the devil. They also didn't stop to consider what made that endpoint itself particularly compelling or desirable, save for being easier on the largely single straight male writing team to write what they know, and for the artists to have fun drawing Peter banging Black Cat on a rooftop or whatever.

[J-H]

I haven't watched the last few Spiderman movies... in fact nothing since the Spiderman 3 with Venom and Sandman and _____ (don't remember the other villain, but it was crowded).

This, I'm kind of interested in. Otto Octavius was a very good character.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I haven't watched the last few Spiderman movies... in fact nothing since the Spiderman 3 with Venom and Sandman and _____ (don't remember the other villain, but it was crowded).


Harry Osbourne/New Goblin IIRC.

[Ramza00]

I haven't watched the last few Spiderman movies... in fact nothing since the Spiderman 3 with Venom and Sandman and _____ (don't remember the other villain, but it was crowded).

The universe literally sent Peter Parker’s best friend to try to stop the wedding, and lose the wedding ring for the best friend wanted to be in Peter’s life and MJ’s life. Also something with Peter killing the best friend’s father and him getting high on his dad’s drug stash.

Then the alien goo man stabs the best friend who only wanted a throuple for he, the alien goo man is the only one allowed to be Peter’s jealous ex.

[Ramza00]

Skrulls and What If in the Spider-Man


Is anyone uncertain if Strange would be that reckless in Peter Parker's reality, anymore? After seeing What If?

Or do we have a The Last Jedi situation involving would or would not Luke do what he did in ROTJ?

[DeadMech]

The teaser trailer disappointed me... Not because of anything in it or my expectations of the movie... I saw the trailer released, remembered how much I have been enjoying the recent spiderman movies, and then was told it wouldn't be out anytime soon. That's just being a tease.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Skrulls and What If in the Spider-Man


Is anyone uncertain if Strange would be that reckless in Peter Parker's reality, anymore? After seeing What If?

Or do we have a The Last Jedi situation involving would or would not Luke do what he did in ROTJ?


What If!Strange hasn’t gone through the same character arch as Live Action!Strange though.

[Keltest]

The teaser trailer disappointed me... Not because of anything in it or my expectations of the movie... I saw the trailer released, remembered how much I have been enjoying the recent spiderman movies, and then was told it wouldn't be out anytime soon. That's just being a tease.

I mean... thats why they call it a teaser.

[Majin]

The teaser trailer disappointed me... Not because of anything in it or my expectations of the movie... I saw the trailer released, remembered how much I have been enjoying the recent spiderman movies, and then was told it wouldn't be out anytime soon. That's just being a tease.

https://i.ibb.co/nLYwKJJ/more.png

[Psyren]

Skrulls and What If in the Spider-Man


Is anyone uncertain if Strange would be that reckless in Peter Parker's reality, anymore? After seeing What If?

Or do we have a The Last Jedi situation involving would or would not Luke do what he did in ROTJ?


You mean, do I think a completely different Strange from the regular MCU one would behave somewhat oddly? Of course I'd agree with that, and that is in fact one of the theories in this very thread. Variants gonna variant and all that.