Tashalatora Psychic Rogue optimization

[Soranar]

So Tashalatora makes a psionic class pretty good abilities for the cost of 2 feats

you get:

-flurry of blows
-monk AC
-monk unarmed strikes

Now the overlap for a psychic warrior is obvious but I want to play something that's not only useful in combat

I like it for a psychic rogue because flurry of blows seems better to me than using TWF, ITWF and GTWF (a 2 handed quarterstaff is better than whatever 1 handed weapon I could use as a psychic rogue anyway) which combos well with the bonus damage from sneak attack

Monk's AC works about as well as light armor, it's not ideal (since you're not wisdom based) but it's not horrible either and it scales ok once you get bracer or armor or if you invest into inertial armor by taking expanded knowledge

and this class benefits from all stats so I'm thinking of aiming for a belt of magnificience at some point

I'm thinking of going psychic rogue 20 for this build and (because of the skill requirements) I can only take tashalatora at level 3. So, until then, I'm just a normal psychic rogue.

This also locks me for a level 1 feat (monastic training) and the level 3 feat (tashalatora)

Now I compared the damage of unarmed strike vs the damage of a quarterstaff used 2 handed (assuming 14 base STR and level appropriate magic items) and oddly enough it's about even (or slightly in the staff's favor) for a very long time. Enchanting 1 head of a quarterstaff is much cheaper than using an amulet of mighty fist and you benefit from a bonus to STR more using a weapon 2 handed.

And there a tons of low level spells that you can wand to make the most of it (shillelagh is especially brutal)

I still need to fill out the rest of the build

Education (or able learner) + knowledge devotion seems like an option (assuming I play a human). I can't invest much in social skills anyway (since I would dump CHA) and I have a ton of skillpoints

As for the rest, I have my normal feats + the high level abilities (which can also be feats). I'd probably take skill mastery once (to make my rogue abilities reliable) but I'm not decided on anything so feel free to suggest

races, templates, feats and magic items.

The only thing I'm not willing to change is going psychic rogue 20 so if you guys can think of anything, feel free to comment.

[Rebel7284]

Hmm, confirm with your DM that you can take Tashalatora with 0 levels of Monk. That does not seem to be the intent, although you can argue raw that 0 is a valid number of Monk levels as per feat description. Note that Monastic Training can be taken as a Monk bonus feat and Invisible Fist is REAL good. You an also pick up improved evasion quickly (or I guess spell reflection + evasion), so I would at least consider Monk 2/Psychic Rogue 18

Taking Education + Knowledge Devotion seems sub-optimal. How about just taking Craven to boost your sneak attack damage further while only using one feat?

Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis) and Expanded Knowledge (share pain) can both be helpful. Tap Mantle also works, especially if you can combine it with that article about customizing your Mantle. Although you also have Use Psionic Device, so that can be a way to expand your power list with some skill checks late game and save your feats.

- Scorpion Kama from Magic Item Compendium is a weapon that automatically deals damage equal to your unarmed strike and can also be enchanted further. Something to consider. There is also a 3.0 version in Arms and Equipment Guide with similar rules (different name)
- Linked Power is always a great way to get extra value out of your manifesting.
- Metamorphic Transfer is incredible late game with Metamorphosis
- Confound the Big Folk has REAL good synergy with augmented Compression, especially if you're already small to start with.
- Darkstalker is a good feat
- Staggering Strike and some of the Ambush feats are nifty for adding status effects to your attacks.
- Get the arcane caster in your party to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on your Unarmed strikes.

As far as races go, smaller is better
- Strongheart Halflings: Small Size AND a bonus feats?
- Kobold (or one of the sub-races): A bunch of natural attacks in the web article, but most important is that slight build allows you to count as one category smaller. Combine with (augmented) Compression to count as Fine when you need it. Dragonwraugh feat allows for some optional cheese, but isn't strictly needed.
- Whisper Gnome has a fun racial Silence ability and extra sneaking bonuses.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You can combine TWF with Flurry of Blows. Two-handed quarterstaff main-hand plus unarmed strike off-hand (with a kick or headbutt or whatever you want) is at least worth considering for an extra instance of Sneak Attack, especially once the FoB penalty disappears at 9th level.

Similarly, Snap-Kick (Tome of Battle) is another -2 to add an unarmed strike to any melee attack, even standard action ones.

That could be a worrying amount of penalties, but if you're going Knowledge Devotion anyway you should be more than fine.

[noce]

I'm quite fond of the Carmendine Monk feat.
You get to use INT for both AC and Stunning Fist DC. On top of that you get a small bonus that, depending on your level, translates to an AC bonus, damage bonus or speed bonus.

Speaking about Stunning Fist, it is often underrated: it's a free activation save or lose with scaling DC and scaling uses per day. Moreover, the stunned condition enables sneak attacks.

I'm...curious about your determination in taking 0 monk levels. As someone already pointed out, 2 levels get you so much: 3 feats, Invisible Fist, +3 all saves.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A level or two of monk is most definitely worthwhile, especially with ACFs, and don't forget that unarmed strikes have one of the highest optimization ceilings of any weapon in the game (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863). It's not hard to get a +40 enhancement equivalent in special abilities, pre-epic; vastly more if you can craft magic or psionic items yourself. And stuff like throwing + distance allows you to affect your whole body with them (in this case by throwing your body at an opponent, essentially giving you limited but very versatile flight options).

[Soranar]

Hmm, confirm with your DM that you can take Tashalatora with 0 levels of Monk. That does not seem to be the intent, although you can argue raw that 0 is a valid number of Monk levels as per feat description. Note that Monastic Training can be taken as a Monk bonus feat and Invisible Fist is REAL good. You an also pick up improved evasion quickly (or I guess spell reflection + evasion), so I would at least consider Monk 2/Psychic Rogue 18

Delaying Psychic rogue class features (mostly manifesting) is a hefty cost, and not taking any monk levels is DM approved.




Taking Education + Knowledge Devotion seems sub-optimal. How about just taking Craven to boost your sneak attack damage further while only using one feat?

Craven is not a terrible idea to add but I'd like to keep a broad range of abilities that don't rely on creatures not being immune to sneak attack



Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis) and Expanded Knowledge (share pain) can both be helpful. Tap Mantle also works, especially if you can combine it with that article about customizing your Mantle. Although you also have Use Psionic Device, so that can be a way to expand your power list with some skill checks late game and save your feats.

There's no way for a psychic rogue to take tap mantle. Expanded knowledge works and it's a good fit for my level 17 bonus feat but yeah, it won't happen till level 17. A skin of proteus works though so that might happen a little faster. I'll see if I ever reach that.

As for the scorpion kama ability, I'll see if I can swing it by my DM as a +1 weapon ability. It's not that powerful since a normal +1d6 enchant should do the same amount of damage but if I find a few ways to optimize my unarmed damage then it might be worth the trouble.

I'm not sold on playing a small race: the human bonus skillpoint is pretty useful and a STR penalty hurts when you compound it with smaller weapons. As for confound the big folk, that's a big investment longterm and it's a late game ability. But I might have nothing better to take so it's not a no, it's still a maybe.

[Soranar]

You can combine TWF with Flurry of Blows. Two-handed quarterstaff main-hand plus unarmed strike off-hand (with a kick or headbutt or whatever you want) is at least worth considering for an extra instance of Sneak Attack, especially once the FoB penalty disappears at 9th level.

Similarly, Snap-Kick (Tome of Battle) is another -2 to add an unarmed strike to any melee attack, even standard action ones.

That could be a worrying amount of penalties, but if you're going Knowledge Devotion anyway you should be more than fine.

Eessh that a LOT of to hit penalties. Flurry penalties eventually disappear (which is why I like it so much)

Snap kick costs me 2 feats (snap kick + improved unarmed strike) and it only comes on by level 9... I'm not sold on it.

TWF is not so bad (only DEX 15 requirement) for 1 extra attack, I'll find space for it around level 9 when flurry penalties disappear.

ITWF and GTWF require a lot of DEX and they mostly miss. I'm not going to bother with those.

[Soranar]

A level or two of monk is most definitely worthwhile, especially with ACFs, and don't forget that unarmed strikes have one of the highest optimization ceilings of any weapon in the game[/url]. It's not hard to get a +40 enhancement equivalent in special abilities, pre-epic; vastly more if you can craft magic or psionic items yourself. And stuff like throwing + distance allows you to affect your whole body with them (in this case by throwing your body at an opponent, essentially giving you limited but very versatile flight options).

Yeah I have to beware of low flying DMG, there is no way my DM will allow me to enchant my body with the throwing or returning ability. Similarly half the tricks in that post (flaws and dragon material abilities) are definitely not going to fly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah I have to beware of low flying DMG, there is no way my DM will allow me to enchant my body with the throwing or returning ability. Similarly half the tricks in that post (flaws and dragon material abilities) are definitely not going to fly.At the very least, know that you can apply a lot of different enhancements to your unarmed strikes. For instance, a +1 necklace of natural weapons with +9 weapon abilities (which uses throwing and returning for unarmed strikes in the book example, bee tee dubs, so obviously the devs considered it allowable) plus a +1 ward cestus with +9 weapon abilities plus a tooth of Leraje for a +5 enhancement bonus equals a +5 unarmed strike with +18 in weapon abilities. And there are lots of additional things you can do to add weapon enhancements. Ancestral Relic to enhance your unarmed strikes, psychic weapon master if your body consists at least somewhat of crystal, kensai, MIC weapon crystals, etc. There're tons of ways to add further weapon abilities, even if the enhancement bonuses themselves don't stack.

[noce]

Ancestral Relic to enhance your unarmed strikes
"Choose an item you own. The item must be of masterwork quality, and it must be an item that once belonged to a member of your family".
Your unarmed strikes are not items. They are not of masterwork quality. They absolutely didn't belong to a member of your family.


psychic weapon master if your body consists at least somewhat of crystal
LOL


MIC weapon crystals
They require the weapon to be at least of masterwork quality.

Please, be kind to people asking for advice, don't start tossing around crazy ideas that don't work neither RAI nor RAW.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Choose an item you own. The item must be of masterwork quality, and it must be an item that once belonged to a member of your family".
Your unarmed strikes are not items.Monk unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons for effects when beneficial. It's right there in the monk entry.


They are not of masterwork quality.300 gp upon character creation says otherwise. Remember how "unarmed strike" is listed right alongside all the other weapons? Nothing under the masterwork entry for weapons says anything about unarmed strikes being excluded from being masterwork, nor does anything in the unarmed strike or monk entries.


They absolutely didn't belong to a member of your family....Really? Your body wasn't given to you by, say, your parents? Your body is more "given to you by your ancestors" than literally anything else could be.


They require the weapon to be at least of masterwork quality.Again, 300 gp when you make your character.


Please, be kind to people asking for advice, don't start tossing around crazy ideas that don't work neither RAI nor RAW.See above.

[Emperor Tippy]

What role do you want to fulfill?

Is this just you making a Psychic Rogue and deciding to toss two feats onto picking up Wis to AC when unarmored, Flurry, and extra Unarmed Damage?

Because Ardent is a better choice in many ways. That gets you full manifestor progression off Wis with 3/4th BAB. You lose out on Sneak Attack and have fewer skill points though.

Psychic Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Monk 2/ Ardent 17 (Tashalatora) gets AC, Flurry, and Unarmed Damage as a Monk 19 (so -1 AC, 2d8 instead of 2d10 for Unarmed Damage) while still having Sneak Attack to qualify for Craven and Manifesting as a 17th level Ardent.

If you want something more Monk like, ask your DM if you can ignore the Wild Talent requirement on Psionic Fist if you can manifest 1st level powers. If so, dip Psychic Rogue 1/ Ardent 1 (Freedom mantle)/ Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2 (take Spring Attack as one of your bonus feats)/ Psionic Fist 10 (Tashalatora, take Psionic Dodge as one of your bonus feats)/ Telflammar Shadowlord 4/ Elocator 1 (Ardent)/ Swordsage 1 (Il 10). Get Bracers of Armor with Mobility as one of their enhancements so you can qualify for Telflammar.

In that build, you have the AC, Flurry, Unarmed Damage, and Speed bonus of a 12th level Monk (which means Greater Flurry and +40 ft. movement speed). Focus your powers on things like Hustle and Dimensional Hop to get into range to make a Full Attack (and thus Flurry).

It doesn't really come online until higher levels, but once you get Shadow Pounce at Telflammar 4 you can get Flurry twice per round quite easily (and often more). Stack the bonus damage and go to town; just Craven, +5, and Collision alone is an additional +HD+10 damage on every attack.

[Darg]

My recommendation is to bite the bullet and take one level monk.

Monk 1) ImpUAS, Stunning Blow, monastic training
Psychic rogue +2) tashalatora

Or as monastic training can be taken as a bonus feat at first level monk

Psychic Rogue 1) free feat
Monk 1) Imp UAS, monastic training
Psychic rogue 2) tashalatora

Or

Monk 1) ImpUAS, monastic training, carmendine monk
Psychic Rogue +2) tashalatora

[Emperor Tippy]

My recommendation is to bite the bullet and take one level monk.

Monk 1) ImpUAS, Stunning Blow, monastic training
Psychic rogue +2) tashalatora

Or as monastic training can be taken as a bonus feat at first level monk

Psychic Rogue 1) free feat
Monk 1) Imp UAS, monastic training
Psychic rogue 2) tashalatora

Or

Monk 1) ImpUAS, monastic training, carmendine monk
Psychic Rogue +2) tashalatora

If you take any levels of Monk, take 2 of them. Invisible Fist is just that good. Monk 2 also gets you another bonus feat.

Carmendine Monk really isn't worth it on a Psychic Rogue. If you are going with a solid Int focus, picking up Int to AC is good but "being a Rogue" really isn't a solid Int focus.

[animewatcha]

One of main things to address about build is sneak attack. It gets shut down by immunity to crits, 'anatomy', etc. Regular rogue 3 gets around this with the acf of Penetrative strike a bit. Maybe can ask DM to work it into Psychic Rogue?

[Darg]

Psychic rogue is a web article variant of the rogue class. So personally I don't see a reason why it would be a problem.

[Paragon]

If anyone feels like it, this build could very well fit in the NPC Ultimate Database we're trying to launch : here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13m4hw6j_Y8Nt7H5e9OuCBUb1OOARbaCA4TjSfY0GI9I/edit?usp=sharing)

[Soranar]

Ok so, after some finagling, I have the following build

Race : Human
Template: none though necropolitan is defendable

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 15 (main stat, gets every increase)
WIS 14
CHA 8

Level 1 Monastic training, Academy Graduate (Iaijutsu focus, UMD, Handle Animal)
Level 3 Tashalatora
Level 6 Unorthodox flurry (dagger)
Level 9 Quickdraw
Level 11 Skill mastery (Iaijutsu focus, Hide and Move silently, Search and Disable Device, Spot )
Level 12 Darkstalker
Level 14 Expanded knowledge (Time hop)
Level 15 Craven
Level 17 Expanded knowledge (Metamorphosis)
Level 18 Expanded knowledge (Control Body)
Level 20 Expanded knowledge (Schism)

Key magic items and tricks

In melee you use a quarterstaff + shillelagh
In ranged you use thrown daggers or a shortbow (depending on the level)

Hustle gives you extra move actions to get in position either way (only comes on at level 9 though)

UMD gives you access to longlasting cheap buffs through wands, namely shillelagh and mage armor
UPD gives you access to fairly powerful powers (many psionic crowns/dorjes gives you astral construct) but those are expensive

Eventually you want a belt of magnificence.

Iaijutsu focus is a decent compromise to find a way to damage creatures immune to sneak attack: it works against anything that can be flat-footed and you have powers/abilities to make that happen (sneaking, grease, caltrops, etc). Since unorthodox flurry makes flurry work with daggers, throwing daggers triggers it and skill mastery means you'll easily get +4d6 damage from it.

Skill mastery makes you a great rogue : taking 10 on all crucial rogue skills+ iaijutsu focus is awesome. (too bad you can never take 10 with UPD or UMD)

Late game (doubt it'll see play but for the sake of completeness)

Metamorphosis is a good longterm buff with a lot of options
Control Body lets you control yourself and just use INT if you have to (only happens late game mind) or an enemy with weaker saves
Schism is great for action economy late game

I decided against using education + knowledge devotion because I need to spend the skillpoints elsewhere and having a ranged option seemed wise.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You're better off finding a higher level telepath or erudite to buy powers off of via psychic chirurgery than spending that many feats on new powers. Even with the XP cost, that's way cheaper by comparison, given how crazy-useful feats can be. Alternatively, you could buy feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts), then purchase a few Dark Chaos Feat Shuffles.

[Soranar]

I guess I could go all in on a ranged build

Race : Strongheart Halfling
Template: necropolitan

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 6 (dump)
DEX 20 (main stat, gets every increase)
CON 12 (enough to survive until necropolitan kicks in)
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8 (dump)

Level 1 Monastic training, education
Level 3 Knowledge devotion
Level 6 Hand crossbow focus (counts as rapid reload too)
Level 9 Crossbow sniper
Level 11 Bonus feat: Tashalatora
Level 12 Unorthodox flurry (hand crossbow)
Level 14 Point blank shot
Level 15 Rapid shot
Level 17 Martial Study (setting sun maneuver)
Level 18 Martial Stance (Giant killing style)
Level 20 Expanded knowledge (metamorphosis) ? Not sure here

Level 1-10 you're a normal psychic rogue (use a shortbow or a hand crossbow in ranged, a feycrafted rapier in melee)
Level 11 you ditch your armor
Level 12+ you become an archery barrage

Pros: Less emphasis on sneak attack damage, fighting beyond 30 ft is not a problem, very decent to hit bonus, it's easier to enchant a single hand crossbow than multiple throwing weapons

Con: heavy feat investment, if it doesn't work your backup weapon are unarmed strikes, you're not as good at being a rogue (less INT, less skillpoints, points dumped into knowledges)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Martial Stance could theoretically be replaced by a cheap magic item, which saves you a feat. And you can buy metamorphosis by purchasing a psychic chirurgery, as I stated above. That's two feats you've saved, fairly easily.