Redcloak: Team Evil's version of Roy?

[*Templar*]

Perhaps this has been remarked upon before, so if it has, forgive me...but does anybody else sort of see Redcloak as the villain contingent's version of Roy? I don't pretend this is something I've thought through in great detail, but they just seem pretty similar in attitude, personality, and role to me.

Both are generally serious and level-headed types, playing "straight man" to the assorted crazies and morons they're surrounded with and taking little direct role in the comedy of the strip beyond sarcastic comments. They're both to a certain extent driven by personal motivations rather than the grander goals of the other characters from their respective alignments (Roy's vengeance against Xykon, Redcloak's concern for all goblin-kind). They're both among the more intelligent and competent leaders and strategists on their respective sides, if not actually at the top.

Anybody care to agree? Disagree? Heap verbal abuse upon me?

[Shades of Gray]

I agree with you. Although Roy isn't as much of a: I must save my race GARGH!

But yeah I agree with you.

[Bongos]

I guess it's a pretty good analogy, except Roy is missing a Xykon type figure in his group. Roy is pretty much the undisputed leader of OOTS, but Xykon is the real force behind Team Evil isn't he? I see Redcloak as being upper management and Xykon being the do nothing boss.

[GrayMatter]

Perhaps this has been remarked upon before, so if it has, forgive me...but does anybody else sort of see Redcloak as the villain contingent's version of Roy? I don't pretend this is something I've thought through in great detail, but they just seem pretty similar in attitude, personality, and role to me.

Both are generally serious and level-headed types, playing "straight man" to the assorted crazies and morons they're surrounded with and taking little direct role in the comedy of the strip beyond sarcastic comments. They're both to a certain extent driven by personal motivations rather than the grander goals of the other characters from their respective alignments (Roy's vengeance against Xykon, Redcloak's concern for all goblin-kind). They're both among the more intelligent and competent leaders and strategists on their respective sides, if not actually at the top.

Anybody care to agree? Disagree? Heap verbal abuse upon me?

You $%^&*(^&*()&*() - why didn't you post a translation of your sig? You know how hard it is to find a decent dead language translator on the internet without chumming for a spam attack? Grrr.

O wait, did you mean we should reply on topic....? In that case, I agree. If the OOTS world weren't what it is, Roy and Redcloak could actually be great friends because of their similarities.

[EmperorSarda]

Are you trying to apply the linear guild concepts to team evil?

I wouldn't see Roy using acid filled pies to get the job done. And that moves beyond sarcasm

As for his concern for goblin-kind, it only came because one of the hobos saved him, that and it is part of his cerical job description.

I see them as being parallels of each other, or being versions of each other. They're just really good at what they do.

Actually Roy isn't entirely driven by revenge now, he's doing it to save the world. And RedCloak is a major part of the Xykon's ability to have gotten this far, in fact it is because of RedCloak that they took the city and are taking the extra time in AC to research the other gates. Redcloak only changed tactics because he decided not to kill them all and have them go through the gap to take the city.

And since you asked for it so nicely *Heaps verbal abuse*

[Ariko]

..RC's concern for goblinkind only from the hobgoblin saving him? :smallconfused: Ya need to read more OotS. especiall SoD, but more OotS in general. RC is devoted to goblinkind, if principilly his particular species. He had a grudge against hobgoblins from being bullied apparently, and has decided putting up with Xykon's whims is for the ultimate good of goblinkind..he kind of has to for his own sanity after what he did in SoD. In any event, at this point he cares little to not at all about individual members, only for the race of goblins as a whole..which as was stated in comics not so long ago, he did not previously consider hobgoblins to be a part of.

[MCerberus]

<rant>

Drawing 1-1 comparisons to different party members doesn't work. There are just different personalities. Redcloak is not an evil Roy, he's just Redcloak. The group he's with isn't the OotS so they have very different group dynamics. Characters are different!

Unfortunately people see crazy similarities everywhere, grasp at them, and we get things like Miko return threads and... Therkla theories.

She's not Haley

</rant>

[mockingbyrd7]

I personally hadn't seen this parallel before, but now that you bring it up I completely see it. As someone said earlier, if the OotS world wasn't what it was they'd probably be good friends. I agree, especially since in the regular world someone being evil isn't always obvious. Sometimes it doesn't show up unless a deep moral situation comes up. That could potentially not happen for years. I totally see the similarities now.

[EmperorSarda]

..RC's concern for goblinkind only from the hobgoblin saving him? :smallconfused: Ya need to read more OotS. especiall SoD, but more OotS in general. RC is devoted to goblinkind, if principilly his particular species. He had a grudge against hobgoblins from being bullied apparently, and has decided putting up with Xykon's whims is for the ultimate good of goblinkind..he kind of has to for his own sanity after what he did in SoD. In any event, at this point he cares little to not at all about individual members, only for the race of goblins as a whole..which as was stated in comics not so long ago, he did not previously consider hobgoblins to be a part of.

Yeah, I suppose reading would help. I meant though that RC's concern for the hobo's, not goblin kind in general. But thanks for the correction

[Hood]

They play similar roles (like you said, the straight man) but they have too many discrepencies to be compared very well.

[the_tick_rules]

yeah they have certain similar characterisits. trying to get a rather motley and disfunctional group to stay focused.

[Chronos]

You $%^&*(^&*()&*() - why didn't you post a translation of your sig? You know how hard it is to find a decent dead language translator on the internet without chumming for a spam attack? Grrr.I think it's "Not for us, Lord, not for us but to your name we give the glory.". Or something like that; it's been 11 years since my last Latin class.

[Corncracker]

I guess it's a pretty good analogy, except Roy is missing a Xykon type figure in his group. Roy is pretty much the undisputed leader of OOTS, but Xykon is the real force behind Team Evil isn't he? I see Redcloak as being upper management and Xykon being the do nothing boss.

What about Belkar? He's definately Xykon like. And as Roy Keeps Belkar in check, Redcloak keeps Xykon in check.

Only difference is Xykon actually is able to make Redcloak do things. Belkar just attemps and fails to make people listen to him.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Well, now that you've mentioned it, there are a lot of parallels between the two.

Both Redcloak and Roy have the same kind of dry humor. And their both the "normal" guys in their parties. While they both have very different motivations, they both play similar roles in the story. And their both tacticians. And their both bald. And the MITD/Redcloak relationship is a lot like the Roy/Elan one.

And the I think the M/CITD is Team Evil's version of Elan, while Xykon is the most like Belkar. I don't know about Tsukiko.

I hope this is making at least some sense.

[Frakbox]

thats an interesting theory actually... now that you mention it.

[blackspeeker]

I think it is a believble theory as far as the idea that they're both straiht men, but it really goes no further.

[Frakbox]

Proud to be Resident Bard/Paladin of Freedom of the most noble House of Kato.

you can't be a Bard/Paladin... or else you loose your paladin abilities... or what would happen to you if a Bard went Law would you loose ...Bard... abilities....? sorry off topic.

[Setra]

you can't be a Bard/Paladin... or else you loose your paladin abilities... or what would happen to you if a Bard went Law would you loose ...Bard... abilities....? sorry off topic.
Could be a Paladin of Freedom. (Edit: Which was said in the original quote, whoops missed it)

In any case, yes they have similarities.. but also differences.

Redcloak hates all humans.

Roy doesn't seem to harbor any hatred towards any race or species.

[Angafirith]

"Paladin of Freedom" is a Paladin variant that requires a Chaotic Good alignment, rather than Lawful Good. It's in Unearthed Arcana. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)

It seems rather... uninspired to me. I mean, it's pretty much just a straight alignment swap of the Paladin.

[Mr._Michael]

You $%^&*(^&*()&*() - why didn't you post a translation of your sig? You know how hard it is to find a decent dead language translator on the internet without chumming for a spam attack? Grrr.

Hahaa... yeah, Latin seems to be a tad under-represented in the online tranlators. The quote is the beginning of Psalm 115 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20115%20;&version=9;), and the words make up a Chorus of a Hymn.

However, *Templar* is using them in his sig because the Catholic Knights Templar of the 12th Century used the phrase as their motto, so it's fitting for him... :smallamused: (seriously trying to avoid campfire phobia jokes here... )

[Arrogant]

Redcloak would be more of an Evil version of Vaarsuvius than anyone. The guy under the umbrella would be Elan and Xylon would be Roy. Thats how I would add it up anyway

[BisectedBrioche]

Don't forget that they've both (Prequal spoilers);



Lost a sibling (Roy via an accident, RC via his own hands)
Inherited something from an ancestor (Roy's sword, RC's Crimsom Mantle)
Have opposing colour schemes (Red vs Blue)
Are (presumably) both lawful (though I'm not sure about RC)
Are opposite in terms of class (A cleric doing the will of his god vs a non-religus fighter)
Are emplyed by a more powerful entity (Roy willingly working for the leader of a city of Paladins, RC forced to work for a CE lich)

[Squark]

Yup, there are distinct similarities. Really, if certain events hadn't happened the way they did, Redcloak might be the party cleric.

EDIT: Ok, its an exageration...

[Baron Pineapple]

you can't be a Bard/Paladin... or else you loose your paladin abilities... or what would happen to you if a Bard went Law would you loose ...Bard... abilities....? sorry off topic.

Actually, you CAN be a bard-paladin. All it requires is the Devoted Performer Feat from The Complete Adventurer. It allows multi-classing between the two classes, and stacks their levels for purposes of Smite Evil and Bard Songs Per Day. It's a rather nifty feat. :elan:

[Tempest Fennac]

Don't forget that RC's friends and a lot of his relatives were basically murdered by Paladins. Also, he got the Crimson Mantle from the previous Hig Priest rather then an ancestor.

I know this is off topic, but I know what you mean about the Paladin of Freedom being uninspired (check page 73 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf for some better variations).

[Balgus]

I guess it's a pretty good analogy, except Roy is missing a Xykon type figure in his group. Roy is pretty much the undisputed leader of OOTS, but Xykon is the real force behind Team Evil isn't he? I see Redcloak as being upper management and Xykon being the do nothing boss.You could argue that duty is his Xykon. Where Xykkon is the embodiment of EVIL - quite literally, ROy is bound by his duty - to do good, to protect others, to avenge his father... all of which cannot be destroyed - like Xykon...


Bisected8 : Have opposing colour schemes (Red vs Blue) Actually - Roy would be green.. (greenhilt) which IS the opposit of red (or its complement on the color wheel). Blue and orange are opposites/complement

[....]

I don't think Roy is motivated by revenge like Redcloak.

Roy wants to stop Xykon so his friends can live their lives in peace. Redcloak wants to kill and main every human (especially paladins) he can find to avenge his people.

[GrayMatter]

I don't think Roy is motivated by revenge like Redcloak.

Roy wants to stop Xykon so his friends can live their lives in peace. Redcloak wants to kill and main every human (especially paladins) he can find to avenge his people.

Actually, Redcloak is all about the Plan, SOD makes it pretty clear how far he'll go to help his people. Avenging is in there, but strictly secondary.

However, let's remember that the OP was not about plans, motivations or anything objective to the characters. The OP was about the characters' personalities and (argg) character being a good matchup.

And thanks for the Latin translation and background, you stopped it from rattling around in my noggin lol.

[silvadel]

I think what you are getting at is they are both "lawful non-stupid." They also both seem to have an annoying high charisma character of chaotic alignment nipping at them all the time. At any rate Redcloak has more class and style than roy.

[Twilight Jack]

Actually, you CAN be a bard-paladin. All it requires is the Devoted Performer Feat from The Complete Adventurer. It allows multi-classing between the two classes, and stacks their levels for purposes of Smite Evil and Bard Songs Per Day. It's a rather nifty feat. :elan:

Yeah, but how would that work, since Bards are required to be non-lawful? I guess bards don't lose their abilities if they become lawful, though. They can't take anymore levels in Bard from that point on (unless the feat removes that restriction as well), but I suppose that wouldn't matter if their Paladin levels are stacking for all their class abilities. Say goodbye to the skill point progression, though.

[bluewind95]

That's an interesting proposal. I can definitely see both Redcloak and Roy as being a sort of "balancing force" for their respective teams. I don't think they're equivalents as characters, but they are sort of equivalent in their function. Their personalities and motivations differ in their essence, even though they are somewhat alike in their generalization. But in purpose as a balancing force, they are alike.

Still, I don't think it's so much that they're "parallels". It's more that, in order to maintain a serious tone (at least in part) to the comic, one needs this balancing force. Otherwise, it may fall into a completely unbelievable comic scenario (considering, of course, the suspension of disbelief), and it would make the serious on-going plot pretty much impossible. The comic is a mix of serious and hilarious, so it needs to be balanced. Roy does this for the Order. Team Evil needs such a force too since it's completely separate from the Order. Redcloak and his personality come in like that.

At least that's how I see it.

[Fussy]

That's an interesting proposal. I can definitely see both Redcloak and Roy as being a sort of "balancing force" for their respective teams. I don't think they're equivalents as characters, but they are sort of equivalent in their function. Their personalities and motivations differ in their essence, even though they are somewhat alike in their generalization. But in purpose as a balancing force, they are alike.

Still, I don't think it's so much that they're "parallels". It's more that, in order to maintain a serious tone (at least in part) to the comic, one needs this balancing force. Otherwise, it may fall into a completely unbelievable comic scenario (considering, of course, the suspension of disbelief), and it would make the serious on-going plot pretty much impossible. The comic is a mix of serious and hilarious, so it needs to be balanced. Roy does this for the Order. Team Evil needs such a force too since it's completely separate from the Order. Redcloak and his personality come in like that.

At least that's how I see it.

I totally agree. Without Recloak and Roy, the main plot wouldn't be taken so seriously - and then the most serious plot would be Elan and Haley. aWoohoo.

Redcloak and Roy aren't so much 'serious' as intelligent. That is, their characters have a much more in-depth background (thanks to Rich) and so if we just saw Redcloak and Roy deliverying sarcastic remarks all the time we wouldn't be able to appreciate them with characters -and as such, the plot (let's face it, they are the main characters). Calling them 'serious' characters is not really fair, as they do tend to end a lot of serious points with a punchline, sometimes (read: always) more funny than Haley polishing gold.

The whole main plot is kept light-hearted because 5/6 of the good team are just comedians, and the main evil guy is a hilariously sarcastic. Roy and Redcloak keep the story serious (though often just through being there, and thus reminding us of their backstories and reasons for doing whatever it is they are, rather than stating it outright), and as such some strips are devoted entirely to one or the other - and these strips can quickly provide a serious moment.

Think of Shakespeare injecting random comic relief into a lot of his plays to lighten the mood, except done the other way round. Too serious, and people get bored - too comic, and nobody takes it seriously.

Also, this confuses me: :cool:

Why is he wearing shades? This guy isn't: :biggrin: Either the first guy is trying to be cool by wearing sunglasses indoors, or the 2nd guy has his eyes closed for a reason.

[bluewind95]

Calling them 'serious' characters is not really fair, as they do tend to end a lot of serious points with a punchline, sometimes (read: always) more funny than Haley polishing gold.

The whole main plot is kept light-hearted because 5/6 of the good team are just comedians, and the main evil guy is a hilariously sarcastic. Roy and Redcloak keep the story serious (though often just through being there, and thus reminding us of their backstories and reasons for doing whatever it is they are, rather than stating it outright), and as such some strips are devoted entirely to one or the other - and these strips can quickly provide a serious moment.

Think of Shakespeare injecting random comic relief into a lot of his plays to lighten the mood, except done the other way round. Too serious, and people get bored - too comic, and nobody takes it seriously.


Well, yes, I agree. I wasn't calling them "serious" as in "not funny". I was calling them serious as in not solely created to be purely comedic (Like Elan or Belkar). They can both be very funny, but while they are that, they are not pure comedy relief.

[Valinor2]

O.K. I may have come into this conversation late and may have missd most of the action, but I do wish to point out that Roy does have a lot of the same leadership qualities as Redcloak, but I do think that if it ever came to a 1on1 battle Redcloak would smite Roy's arse! Oh by the way I'm new here and I feel kind of embarassed about what I just said...:smallredface:



Alax asurax eshana!

[vivi]

I agree, Redcloak is a lot like Roy.

[Valinor2]

Wow, thanks for backing me up! I owe ya one!:smallsmile:





Asudax ordran ixisash!

[Valinor2]

Wait... were you backing me up? I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch!:smallredface: