Bladesinger (or bard) Archer?

[athorod]

So... I want to play a Bladesinger who focuses on archery with the sharpshooter feat rather than melee or cantrips. I suppose I COULD go bard instead of Bladesinger, but I would prefer Bladesinger.

I am not looking for the most optimal build, but a fun build that can do good (if not exceptional) damage and be a decent, versatile wizard with utility, damage and control.

I wanted to make a build a Varian Human w/crossbow expert @1 and sharpshooter @4 etc. but of course, the Bladesinger doesn't have hand crossbow proficiency. I haven't checked if my DM would allow me to swap the vHuman skill proficiency with a hand crossbow proficienct, but I doubt it. I would start with 16 DEX/INT, but my plan would be to max INT first to maximize spell efficiency.

So, I have a few questions, regarding the Bladesinger, though some of them would be relevant if I made a bard instead...
1. Is it viable to drop the hand crossbow and go the longbow route and take sharpshooter @4? I know I can't have bladesong active while using a longbow, but I can use other stuff while bladesong is active.
2. Do I need to max DEX to get any fun out of Sharpshooter, or can I have 16 DEX, at least until after I've maxed INT?
3. If I multiclass and get Crossbow Expert @1, do I have to take Fighter (or Ranger if the stats allow) because of the Archery Fighting style? Or could ie. Rogue, Cleric, Hexblade or Bard also work (if I mix some stats around, like drop CON a bit). The other classes might not give me the best archery options, but might give me some other skills and/or flavorful stuff.
4. Is there another, easier way to get near sharpshooter damage with a bladesinger from range w/cantrips or weapons?
5. Are there other full casters I could look at for a good sharpshooter build?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hexblades (using a longbow as your Pact Weapon) and Bards (nabbing swift quiver with Spell Secrets) can both be viable archers (though Hexblades tend to prefer sniping with eldritch blast instead of a physical bow and arrow).

[RogueJK]

1. Is it viable to drop the hand crossbow and go the longbow route and take sharpshooter @4? I know I can't have bladesong active while using a longbow, but I can use other stuff while bladesong is active.

Not really. You'd be giving up most uses of the subclasses' primary ability. If you want to be a Bladesinger Archer, a Hand Crossbow is the way to do it.


2. Do I need to max DEX to get any fun out of Sharpshooter, or can I have 16 DEX, at least until after I've maxed INT?

If Sharpshooter is going to be your focus instead of spellcasting, I'd recommend getting to 18 or even 20 DEX before worrying about maxing INT, and just focus your spellcasting on buff/utility/defensive spells that don't rely on your INT for attacks/saves. You'll want to be able to reliably offset Sharpshooter's -5 to attack, and that requires a high attack bonus.


3. If I multiclass and get Crossbow Expert @1, do I have to take Fighter (or Ranger if the stats allow) because of the Archery Fighting style?

Starting with a level of Fighter on this Hand Crossbow Bladesinger is going to be your best bet, for a number of reasons. It gets you:

1) Archery fighting style, to further help offset the Sharpshooter penalty, and also the fact that you're not going to be maxing DEX as quickly as a dedicated archer would.
2) Hand Crossbow proficiency (solves the dilemma of relying on your DM to let you swap proficiencies)
3) CON save proficiency, which stacks well with your Bladesong's INT to Concentration and eliminates the need to worry about spending a feat on Resilient CON (since you're already going to be ASI-starved)


4. Is there another, easier way to get near sharpshooter damage with a bladesinger from range w/cantrips or weapons?

Nope. Sharpshooter's damage output isn't going to be beat from range with cantrips or something like thrown weapons. Especially with a Hand Crossbow's 3x attacks per turn. About the only Wizard build that could compete at ranged single target damage specifically is possibly something like a Hexblade 1/Evoker Wizard X with their Magic Missile abuse that can eventually get to high damage numbers, but that's not damage from cantrips or weapons specifically.


5. Are there other full casters I could look at for a good sharpshooter build?

One to consider is a Hexblade Blade Pact Warlock with the Thirsting Blade invocation for Extra Attack. That lets you use CHA for attack/damage with a Hand Crossbow as-is, or with the Improved Pact Weapon invocation to get a Longbow as your Pact Weapon if you'd rather go that route. This also lets you use Medium Armor, so you would be able to stay with a 14 DEX and just worry about boosting CHA fully.

Swords Bard is also workable. It'd be MAD like a Bladesinger, needing both DEX and CHA. And you wouldn't be able to take advantage of either of their Fighting Styles, except as a melee backup. But you'd still be a full caster with Extra Attack, and the Blade Flourishes are usable with hand crossbow or longbow attacks. Bards already get Hand Crossbow proficiency, but you'd need a way to get Longbow proficiency if you'd rather go that route. So like the Bladesinger, starting with a level of Fighter for Archery Fighting Style, weapon proficiencies, and CON proficiency is a very good option here too.


Or, if you just want to be more of an archer with some spell access, consider something like an Eldritch Knight Fighter instead, with perhaps a War Wizard 2 dip to get more Wizard-y flavor. Or a Battle Smith Artificer combines Extra Attack with half-casting, plus lets you use INT for your attacks, and can even wear Heavy Armor to totally dump DEX if needed. Or there's always the Ranger, if it doesn't have to be Arcane casting.

[athorod]

I like the rest of your post as well, just curious about this:

[QUOTE=RogueJ
Or a Swords Bard. You wouldn't be able to take advantage of either of their Fighting Styles, except as a melee backup. But you'd still be a full caster with Extra Attack, and the Blade Flourishes are usable with bow attacks. You'd need a way to get Longbow proficiency though, so starting with a level of Fighter for Archery Fighting Style, Longbow proficiency, and CON proficiency is a very good option here too.[/QUOTE]

You're here thinking to get Shift Quiver at 10th level with longbow rather than getting crossbow expert?

[RogueJK]

Either Hand Crossbow or Longbow is doable on a Swords Bard. I was in the process of editing my post to clarify those two options.

As to which path to take, it depends:

Hand Crossbow gets you 3x attacks per turn, but costs an extra feat, and has a limited range. (But doesn't require you to dip Fighter to use on a Bard, although you might want to anyway for CON prof and Archery.)

Longbow is only 2x attacks per turn, but gives you an extra ASI to spend on boosting your DEX or CHA, and has a much longer range.

Swift Quiver can be used with either, with a Longbow going from 2x to 4x attacks per turn, and a Hand Crossbow going from 3x to 4x attacks per turn. So that's a wash.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If Sharpshooter is going to be your focus instead of spellcasting, I'd recommend getting to 18 or even 20 DEX before worrying about maxing INT, and just focus your spellcasting on buff/utility/defensive spells that don't rely on your INT for attacks/saves.
I've been playing a Bladesinger for a while now, and I want to agree with this--I barely ever bother casting something with a (spell) attack roll or save, and I'm doing just fine.

My other piece of advice would be "watch your bonus action economy." Between activating Bladesong, your Crossbow Expert (or TWF in my case) attack, and bonus action buffs like Spirit Shroud, you're going to have a lot of competition for the slot every turn.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I tend to think XBE is excellent for Bladesingers, and probably better if you don't have to dip fighter. Though, I don't think Fighter 1 is a bad dip anyway because of how much you get. Archery fighting style is great and XBE gives you a reliable use for your bonus action without taking up your free hand and thus needing Warcaster.
Sharpshooter, on the other hand, I don't really see as being worth it. You're already a MAD class, and without a lot of attacks per round it's starting to be a big investment. Your second attack with multiattack will be comparable as a cantrip vs another arrow at level 6, and by level 11 the cantrip will be superior anyway.

[athorod]

I tend to think XBE is excellent for Bladesingers, and probably better if you don't have to dip fighter. Though, I don't think Fighter 1 is a bad dip anyway because of how much you get. Archery fighting style is great and XBE gives you a reliable use for your bonus action without taking up your free hand and thus needing Warcaster.
Sharpshooter, on the other hand, I don't really see as being worth it. You're already a MAD class, and without a lot of attacks per round it's starting to be a big investment. Your second attack with multiattack will be comparable as a cantrip vs another arrow at level 6, and by level 11 the cantrip will be superior anyway.

Isn't XBE+Sharpshooter better? At level 11 with 1 Fighter/Bladesinger 10 and Haste you'll have 4 attacks with potentially 1d6+14 damage, although with a -3 to hit compared to cantrips. That has to be better than the cantrips?

[athorod]

I've been playing a Bladesinger for a while now, and I want to agree with this--I barely ever bother casting something with a (spell) attack roll or save, and I'm doing just fine.

My other piece of advice would be "watch your bonus action economy." Between activating Bladesong, your Crossbow Expert (or TWF in my case) attack, and bonus action buffs like Spirit Shroud, you're going to have a lot of competition for the slot every turn.

Do you have the 2w-feat and do you have any troubles with survivability in melee? Would you go the 2w-route again or have you thought a XBE+Sharpshooter could be better?

[athorod]

Either Hand Crossbow or Longbow is doable on a Swords Bard. I was in the process of editing my post to clarify those two options.

As to which path to take, it depends:

Hand Crossbow gets you 3x attacks per turn, but costs an extra feat, and has a limited range. (But doesn't require you to dip Fighter to use on a Bard, although you might want to anyway for CON prof and Archery.)

Longbow is only 2x attacks per turn, but gives you an extra ASI to spend on boosting your DEX or CHA, and has a much longer range.

Swift Quiver can be used with either, with a Longbow going from 2x to 4x attacks per turn, and a Hand Crossbow going from 3x to 4x attacks per turn. So that's a wash.

Could also just go elf if a longbow bard I suppose, even though I'm guessing the +2 archery would be sorely missed...

[Eldariel]

I did a write-up on Bladesinger Switch-hitter here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628446-Best-race-for-Bladesinger-post-tasha-s&p=24966950#post24966950) (using Longbow since I don't see a point in going for a 120' combat style in a build - that's something you've got covered with spellcasting anyways, but 600' Sharpshooter archery can give you something new). Swords Bard uses Hand Crossbow better and has more a reason to do so too, though it works with a Longbow too (their maneuvers operate at range).

And no, I would not bother raising Dex. Magic Jar or True Polymorph/Shapechange for a better body eventually and just make do until then. I generally would just rely on advantage as much as possible but if you do want the +2 from Archery, you can take Fighting Initiate. No, I don't think it's worth wasting a level on Fighter; your spells are better enough before level 18 (19 for Bards) that losing a level of casting makes the character weaker overall.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Could also just go elf if a longbow bard I suppose, even though I'm guessing the +2 archery would be sorely missed...

You know, switching your Swords bard Fighting Style to Archery, if you lean into being a bow fighter from the beginning, isn't really such a big ask. I'd discuss it with your DM and see if you can get him/her on board.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Isn't XBE+Sharpshooter better? At level 11 with 1 Fighter/Bladesinger 10 and Haste you'll have 4 attacks with potentially 1d6+14 damage, although with a -3 to hit compared to cantrips. That has to be better than the cantrips?

I mean you're comparing under the context of using a 1 battle spell resource that uses your concentration. There are whole threads that compare damage using SS with the 'to hit' penalty vs varying AC so you can look those up if you want. Summary is you are trading a -5 hit/ +10 damage instead of a +1 hit/ +1 damage, so the actual benefit of SS is -6 hit/ +9 damage vs raising Dex. Then you have to weigh all the other benefits of a Dex improvement (including AC, saves, and initiative) that you won't get. Dex based builds are harder to justify feats than most due to how many things key off of Dex.
You also need to consider as a primary spellcaster how good Haste is. It is decent when you get 3rd level spells at level 1/5, but as you level other options are going to look more attractive.
Regardless, one of the benefits of the Bladesinger multiattack is the cantrip as one of those attacks. Fire Bolt does 3d10 (16.5 points) at 11th level without the penalty to hit, which is why I said it's better than an extra bolt with the SS feat by that point.

My summary would be that there is probably a sweet spot from 6th level until the end of tier 2 where the basic tactic you suggest would be decent. After that I think you may find you've put a pretty big investment into something that is getting less use as both power and number of spells increase.

[athorod]

I agree that haste probably isn't the best spell. Greater invisibility gives advantage and would be better.

3 attacks with advantage and sharpshooter sounds nice.

But I fail to see how a bladesinger would get reliable advantage before greater invisibility. So for this build, perhaps Bard with Faerie Fire would be better.

I like the thought of a bladesinger with mobile though. Using offhand if needed to avoid AoO against more attackers.

[Eldariel]

Bladesinger gets advantage through:
- Familiar from level 1
- Minor Illusion instead of attack on level 6 (and earlier if precast - use as concealment)
- Any disabling spell of course (Hold Person and its ilk obviously work but they take an action)

All of those work great. On level 11 you've got Tenser's (which goes nicely with Song of Defense). Up until then Haste is indeed the best buff you can self-cast. Note that it's not just the extra attack: it's also a boatload of extra movement. Very easy to avoid giving enemy any chance of attacking you when it's up. And you have that extra action that can also allow you to hide or whatever.

Definitely makes Elven Accuracy worth it. Which is why I prefer skipping Crossbow Expert and going just Sharpshooter, EA and that's it. Again, at shorter ranges you've got Shadow Blade/Misty Step/etc. sort of stuff anyways. Where you really want extra tools is at very long ranges and Sharpshooter Longbow is pretty hard to match there.

[athorod]

Familiar is only on the first attack, and in my book, the point of SS is many attacks.

Minor illusion would only work for one round though, if at all? 5' would only give 3/4 cover? In any case, after the first round the opponent would know you're there, so that wouldn't grant advantage? That's how I interpret the rules at least.

But I haven't played 5e for long.

Edit: The disabling spells is a good point though. And that would be an argument for raising Int instead of Dex.

[Eldariel]

Familiar is only on the first attack, and in my book, the point of SS is many attacks.

Minor illusion would only work for one round though, if at all? 5' would only give 3/4 cover? In any case, after the first round the opponent would know you're there, so that wouldn't grant advantage? That's how I interpret the rules at least.

But I haven't played 5e for long.

Edit: The disabling spells is a good point though. And that would be an argument for raising Int instead of Dex.

Int is better in the long run. Eventually you get Magic Jar and Shapechange/True Polymorph to replace your physicals.

As for Minor Illusion, if it's directly between you and the target it should suffice. Nothing prevents you from occupying the same space as the illusion.

Now, what reveals the illusion is something to check with DM - there's no hard RAW on what physical interaction entails and what kind of effect reveals what kind of illusion; creating a thicket and shooting an arrow through it should be fairly inconspicuous for example but many might object to firing through a box. And indeed, whether awareness of something being an illusion is enough to see through it is also not codified. So check with the DM.

And advantage on one SS attack is already quite good/worth it. You can use the second to fire a cantrip or to fire a non-SS attack or to SS in spite of the penalty (often a mathematically sound call). You can also cooperate: simple Silent Image of darkness can generate sufficient concealment to get Unseen Attacker bonuses. There are also other tricks like Tiny Servants or Animated Dead readying Help actions for subsequent attacks.