Let's Talk About My Hexbuckler (up: no longer a 'buckler)

[Speely]

So I am playing a PC in a game that is starting at character level 10. I've also always wanted to play a witchy duelist/pirate type, so I figured "why not?" The idea is to play a really intimidating duelist who gives no f***s.

Enter the Hexbuckler (not my term, obv, but I've not seen this build for it.) My idea is to use Hex to somewhat make up for delayed SA progression while adding a shield for better AC to play up Panache in combat in tandem with attacks of opportunity and Booming Blade. Here's the build. Please critique and offer alternatives if you see better ways to go about this:

Hexblade 2, Swashbuckler 8.
Half-Elf (Half-Drow)
Abilities: We roll, so I will assign Dex > Cha > Con > Str however. Hoping for at least standard array as far as scores. 😬
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and whatevs.
ASIs: Elven Accuracy (+1 Dex) @4. Warcaster @8. (so I start with these.) Subsequent ASIs will be to max Dex and/or Cha (you never know when rolling for scores.) If I get lucky I'll sneak in Lucky maybe (hah?)
Invocations: Armor of Shadows, Devil's Sight.
Spells: Who cares because it's all going to be Hex.
Expertise: Intimidation, Deception, Persuasion, Athletics

The idea: I'm a duelist. I can kite you or stay in your face and make you pay. Booming Blade as both an attack and as an AoO is huge. My AC is pretty good since I have a shield from Hexblade and I have Armor of Shadows, which is an at-will +1 studded leather that lets me still look stunning (if I roll poorly, I will just breastplate this out and call it a day... maybe take Mask of Many Faces or something.) Oh, and Uncanny Dodge.

I can use Drow magic to swing encounters in my favor. Well, an encounter or two, which will also prolly be the same encounter(s) during which I use my Hexblade's Curse. It's like poetry. It rhymes.

I can choose to do the normal Swashbuckler thing and hit and run OR stay in the enemy's face and make them eat a crazy Warcaster BB AoO (plus the previous rider) if they decide to not pay attention to me and instead move away.

That's duelist af.

Please offer alternative choices to any of the above. There are lots of ways to go with this MC, and I am open to suggestions. I have just noticed that most Hex/Rogue builds online have more Warlock levels and I just want to make sure I am not overlooking something important by going only 2 'lock.

Something I like about this build is that is sustainable with just BB/SA and the Warlock (and racial) features plus Uncanny Dodge and the Swashbuckler's engagement options. The damage is not top-tier, but it isn't crap. The defense is better than many Rogues, and it's a good face.

[LordShade]

I am confused. If you are putting your highest stat in Dexterity, what's the point of Hexblade? I thought the concept behind Hexbuckler was to stack initiative, spellcasting, skill proficiencies, and weapon attacks off of Cha.

If you just want the witchy theme, it's fine. If you want to go duelist af, that says more Battlemaster to me. That gets you a shield, maneuvers, the same AC with Defense, and Action Surge.

[someguy]

Hex isn’t going to do much for you at 1 attack/turn. You’re probably better off casting darkness and bonus action hiding next to enemies so they provoke OAs.

Then you also activate your elven accuracy and get disadvantage on enemy attacks rolls.

[Kvess]

Yeah, Hex benefits greatly from an increased number of attacks. If you want to take full advantage of Hex, I would recommend taking Fighter (Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Samurai) instead of Rogue. One of the big benefits to Fighter/Hexblade is Action Surge stacks really well with Hex, either for your Extra Attacks or Eldritch Blasts.

You could also go with Monk if you want a mobile skirmisher, but hex and flurry of blows kind of step on each other.

[DarknessEternal]

attacks of opportunity and Booming Blade.

Hasn't been legal since TCoE.

[Speely]

Hasn't been legal since TCoE.

Even with Warcaster?

[Vulryn]

Hasn't been legal since TCoE.

Proof of that?

[Gtdead]

Hasn't been legal since TCoE.

While the targeting is a bit odd, Crawford has tweeted about it.
Booming Blade works with Warcaster
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1326596181560942593?s=21

[Amechra]

I agree that you probably want to prioritize Charisma over Dexterity here, kinda like how a Monk wants a high Dex and a high Wis but wants a high Dex first.

The thing about Rogue/Warlock builds is that, much like Rogue/, getting to five levels of Warlock to pick up Thirsting Blade is very good, since it gives you more chances to trigger your sneak attack on your turn. If you feel like sticking to SCAGtrips, I'd still go for Warlock 4, because Shadow Blade is a better spell for this kind of build than Hex.

In exchange for a shorter duration (1 minute instead of 1 hour). you get...

Effectively +1d8 damage instead of +1d6 damage.
It's all psychic damage.
You naturally have advantage on attack rolls in dim light (which is [I]superb with Elvish Accuracy).
You can throw the damn thing and pull it back to your hand with a bonus action.

And then, hey, if you end up deciding to go to 5th level? A 3rd level Shadow Blade is a finesse/light/thrown weapon that deals 3d8 psychic damage.

EDIT: As a side rant... man, I wish Thirsting Blade were worded in a way that let it work with Shadow Blade. My poor Fiend Bladelock just ended up using it for offhand attacks.

[Hytheter]

I agree that you probably want to prioritize Charisma over Dexterity here
...
I'd still go for Warlock 4, because Shadow Blade is a better spell for this kind of build than Hex.


Shadow Blade isn't compatible with Hex Warrior, so you can't use it with Charisma. Even if you're going for a Dex focused build, going two levels deeper into warlock means missing out on 1d6 damage worth of sneak attack so Hex would in fact be more damaging than Shadow Blade with OP's build. Also, the new SCAGtrip RAW prevents their use with Shadow Blade since it has no monetary value.

[Catullus64]

I'm not convinced that Armor of Shadows is a winning pick here. Since you already have Light Armor proficiency, it amounts to +1 AC, and I don't think that's worth an entire Eldritch Invocation, especially not on a more skirmishing-type. Not when you could be rocking some potent utility Invocation like Misty Visions or Eyes of the Rune Keeper.

If you're willing to go in heavy on feat investment, I will point out that Hexblade is the sole path (that I'm aware of) to viable Elven Accuracy + Great Weapon Master.

[Speely]

Thanks for all the helpful feedback and criticism! Lots to consider here. Y'all are the best :)

[Bobthewizard]

If you're willing to go in heavy on feat investment, I will point out that Hexblade is the sole path (that I'm aware of) to viable Elven Accuracy + Great Weapon Master.

Off-topic, but Battlesmith artificer can do it with intelligence.

[Amechra]

Shadow Blade isn't compatible with Hex Warrior, so you can't use it with Charisma. Even if you're going for a Dex focused build, going two levels deeper into warlock means missing out on 1d6 damage worth of sneak attack so Hex would in fact be more damaging than Shadow Blade with OP's build. Also, the new SCAGtrip RAW prevents their use with Shadow Blade since it has no monetary value.

This is what you call "Amechra, don't post advice when you've just woken up. And, if you do, actually double-check your work". I completely forgot how Hex Warrior worked, among other things — again, my tired brain was trying to use my Fiendlock as a reference, which isn't terribly helpful.

I will still argue, though, that it makes plenty of sense to invest further in Warlock than OP has. And the primary reason for that is that Hex Warrior automatically affects your Pact Weapon (I double-checked :smallbiggrin:). Swashbucklers adore two-weapon fighting, and having both your main-hand and off-hand weapons key off of Charisma is helpful, if not strictly required. Though this is admittedly less of a problem if your Charisma and Dexterity are reasonably close. And if you're going in for 3 levels, you might as well go to 4 for the ASI.

Also, while I did forget to account for the extra 1d6 lost by taking two extra levels of Warlock, I'm not sure the difference between the two is as cut-and-dry as it might seem on paper. Shadow Blade giving you a built-in source of advantage is huge for a build that wants to use Elven Accuracy. While it might seem like "dim light or darkness" is a situational thing, OP is also playing a Drow, who are best in campaigns where that kind of situation is either natural or easy to create. You're essentially trading 2.5 damage per hit for better accuracy and more crits. Now, if you're in the kind of campaign where advantage is trivial to generate, that easy advantage is way less attractive, and higher raw damage is the clear winner.

Shadow Blade also has the added perk that it works way better with TWF than Hex does, simply because you don't lose a turn of TWFing when you drop your primary target. Hex doesn't really get access to its main selling point over Shadow Blade (it's incredibly long duration, which lets you save on spell slots in the long run) until 5th level.

...

I also just noticed, Speely, that you decided to pick up a shield. That is very wise, since the Shield spell is kinda... not great? At least on a Warlock? It's one of those spells that's best on full casters in Tier 2+, since they have "extra" spell slots that they aren't really using for anything else. Also, they're called swashbucklers for a reason...

That being said, I agree with Catullus64's comment about Armor of Shadows. Honestly, though, the main reason to take it is the aesthetics, so you do you there.

[Talionis]

Consider Warlock three. It nets you second level spells. Misty Step, Darkness, Shadow Blade,and Mirror Image all are decent. The Pact Boons are decent also. Pact of Blade grants a magical weapon if those might be hard to find otherwise and it’s nice for Rogues never to be unarmed. But Chain is fun on Rogues as scouts and messengers. Tome grants cantrips like Guidance. And Talisman is great for a skilled character.

Also if you are going Dexterity as your best stat don’t feel locked into Hexblade. Genie adds damage based on your proficiency which adds up to the sneak attack dice you lose from not being 100% Rogue.

[DarknessEternal]

While the targeting is a bit odd, Crawford has tweeted about it.
Booming Blade works with Warcaster
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1326596181560942593?s=21

Twitter isn't errata.

[strangebloke]

Generally if you want to make some kind of janky gish build, you're universally better off just going with one of the built in options.

Straight hexblade is really good but it's generally better off not actually fighting with a sword. Hard to justify not using eldritch blast tbh. Bladesinger has similar thematic issues.

Eldritch knight gives you a sword of pure darkness and ridiculous AC while not wearing armor. I think it or arcane trickster is ideal for you here.

Alternately: swords bard 9 hexblade 1

[Vulryn]

Twitter isn't errata.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-booming-blade-spell-continues-to-work-with-the-war-caster-feat/

There you go buddy.

[someguy]

Also hex blade gets medium armor and shield so you definitely don’t need armor of shadows. Ohh wait, forgot about stealth.

[Kuulvheysoon]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-booming-blade-spell-continues-to-work-with-the-war-caster-feat/

There you go buddy.

Any tweet from Crawford isn't official, regardless of it's it's compiled on that website or not. Only stuff appearing in the Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) is regarded as Official Errata, and there is no specific exception to the regular rules of Warcaster in regards to booming blade or greenflame blade. Crawford lost the 'privilege' of his tweets being official as of January of 2020.

Crawford himself confirmed this (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1105277917582389248):
As of the January edition of the Sage Advice Compendium PDF, my tweets aren't official rulings. I don't want people having to sift through my tweets for official rules calls.

My tweets will preview official rulings in the compendium. And remember, the DM has the final say.So I'm afraid that DarknessEternal is correct on the RAW of the matter.

[Catullus64]

JCraw may not speak with the voice of authority, but that doesn't mean he's not very knowledgeable about the game he helped design; his judgement about what the rules say on this question seems correct.

I can't see why Booming Blade wouldn't work with Warcaster. The relevant piece of text from the feat says that "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at that creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." Booming Blade meets both of these criteria (though I'm not certain that Greenflame Blade does.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

JCraw may not speak with the voice of authority, but that doesn't mean he's not very knowledgeable about the game he helped design; his judgement about what the rules say on this question seems correct.

I can't see why Booming Blade wouldn't work with Warcaster. The relevant piece of text from the feat says that "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at that creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." Booming Blade meets both of these criteria (though I'm not certain that Greenflame Blade does.)

As of TCoE, booming blade and greenflame blade both have a target of Self (5 foot radius). They don't qualify for the "must only target that creature" part of the requirement for Warcaster.

That being said, I doubt that most DMs would have an issue with it. But take anything you read by JC on Twitter (post Jan 2020) with a grain of salt.

[RogueJK]

Also hex blade gets medium armor and shield so you definitely don’t need armor of shadows. Ohh wait, forgot about stealth.

In addition to the Stealth issue, a DEX-based character can eventually have a higher AC with Mage Armor + 20 DEX + Shield (20) than they could with Half Plate Armor + 20 DEX + Shield (19).



Also if you are going Dexterity as your best stat don’t feel locked into Hexblade. Genie adds damage based on your proficiency which adds up to the sneak attack dice you lose from not being 100% Rogue.

Even if focusing on maxing DEX (which I would in this scenario: 20 DEX and 14/16ish CHA), Hexblade is still the best bet for shield proficiency + Shield spell. Other Warlocks don't get either. Plus Hexblade's Curse's increased critical range meshes well with Elven Accuracy's Triple Advantage.

I definitely wouldn't bother with focusing on Hex for your Warlock spell slots. As noted earlier, it doesn't add much value to a character who's making only one attack per turn, and it eats up Bonus Actions that you'd rather be using for Cunning Action (either Disengage before hitting Swashbuckler 3 or when needing to move past multiple enemies, or otherwise Dash). Instead, Shield 2x/short rest is quite handy for avoiding nasty hits (plus using Uncanny Dodge instead when they can't be avoided), and Protection from Good/Evil is nice to have in your back pocket for extra defense at those times when you're facing those specific enemy types.

Booming Blade is where extra damage for your single attack is going to come from, not Hex. Booming Blade + Sneak Attack + Fancy Footwork + Cunning Action Dash (or Cunning Action Disengage if there's more than 1 enemy).



I also just noticed, Speely, that you decided to pick up a shield. That is very wise, since the Shield spell is kinda... not great? At least on a Warlock? It's one of those spells that's best on full casters in Tier 2+, since they have "extra" spell slots that they aren't really using for anything else.

Shield is not great on full Warlocks, since it doesn't scale at all with spell slot level, and you don't want to be blowing your very limited spell slots on Shield when you have better higher level or upcast spells to be casting with them.

But on a build that merely dips Hexblade and who will only ever have 1st level spells, it's fantastic. The Shield spell is a great use for short rest recharging 1st level spell slots. You actually end up with more 1st level slots per day than a traditional full caster: 6ish vs. 4 (not counting stuff like Arcane Recovery or Sorcery Points). 6ish free Shields per day is very handy for a martial character with a 1 or 2 level Hexblade dip, like this Hexbuckler or a Hexadin/Hexsorcadin.

Besides... There aren't that many other great options for 1st level Warlock spells for this Hexbuckler anyway. Therefore, Shield should be your go-to 1st level spell.

[Dalinar]

That's a range, not a target. A reading of Booming Blade that specifies it targets the self, when the spell has no effect on the self, seems disingenuous to me.

I actually could've sworn the PHB said somewhere that the target of a spell is the thing affected by the spell, but I can't find the paragraph. Anyone? (I know the PHB uses multiple definitions of "target," which doesn't help matters.)

[DarknessEternal]

I can't see why Booming Blade wouldn't work with Warcaster.

So by your logic, Fireball works with Warcaster. If we're just ignoring some of the actual rules, why not ignore all of them?

[Gtdead]

So by your logic, Fireball works with Warcaster. If we're just ignoring some of the actual rules, why not ignore all of them?

Crawford's tweet reinforces what a lot of people think is true for BB and Warcaster:

Having a range of self doesn't necessarily mean that the spell affects you, rather that the caster is the point of origin like in Lightning Bolt. PHB on "Self" range:

"Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you (see “Areas of Effect” later in the this chapter)."

Warcaster specifies that the spell needs to affect only the AoO-triggering enemy. It doesn't say anything about range. (like Twinned spell for example that specifies the range can't be "self").

"When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."

Booming blade has a radius of 5 feet centered on self and can only affect a single creature within 5 feet, it's not an area of effect spell. It doesn't affect the caster in any way or form so the only reasonable way to read this is that the target is the origin of the spell.

"You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you."

Specific beats general. BB does exactly what Warcaster expects the spell to do. It affects the target that triggered the AoO. GFB also works with warcaster because the spell says "and you can cause green fire to leap from the target to a different creature". This effect is not mandatory.

As for fireball, you don't target a creature, but a point. It's not the same as Booming Blade in any shape of form and it's impossible to target only one creature because the caster will be affected too.

[Speely]

Ok so this thread made me step back and look at some things. I really appreciate all the input from this amazing community.

Here's where I am at: I was overthinking the whole "gotta be a Swashbuckler to be a real duelist" thing. After looking at it from a diff perspective, one doesn't have to be a rogue at all (an obvious point to y'all most likely, but I was sorta devoted to the theme.) I think I'd rather make this character as a Hexblade 12/ Draconic Sorcerer (red) X with a Pirate background. Lots of cool style stuff I can flavor, and it's fairly brutal one-on-one as befits a duelist.

Race: PHB Half-Elf rather than Half-Drow (to shore up some of the skill profs I will be losing.)
ASIs: Elven Accuracy, PAM, then increase Cha and Dex. If I roll well enough, I'll add in GWM @16, but I am ok sacrificing it for overboard accuracy if needs be. (Note that I know leaving Dex @14 and instead taking GWM is mechanically a better choice for this role, I just don't want to wear armor, so I will take the hit for the flavor.)
Invocations: Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, Agonizing Blast, Grasp of Hadar (Lifedrinker @12)
Key Spells: Shadow of Moil, Shield

This lets me start at Sorc 1 Hexblade 9. Then Hexblade till 12 and then rest Sorc. I can keep my unarmored theme, free up invocations for being able to do some good ranged damage that brings targets closer to melee range (and peels them from squishy allies,) and gives me some low level slots to use on Shield and utility spells, leaving my Pact slots open for Shadow of Moil and smiting. By Warlock 12 I will have 3 Pact slots, so that's a prolly a smite or two per rest (which I'll save for crits, obv.) I'll take it since this build's sustained, resourceless damage is really good once I hit Warlock 12.

Oddly, even though Hex has more use here than before due to PAM giving me 3 attacks, I am dropping it in order to maintain concentration on Shadow of Moil, which is just bonkers-good and will net more damage in the end while mitigating the AC hit I am taking by using a glaive vs rapier and shield (not to mention Armor of Hexes.) Vastly more party-friendly, too.

Trading Mystic Arcanums for more low-level utility slots (and more cantrips) is a fine trade to me here, and that's not even considering the Twinned and Quickened spells I'll be able to cast in a pinch.

So... better? Worse? Samesies?

Edit: forgot to mention that we are starting with one uncommon magic item, so I am choosing a Cloak of Protection to help with AC and saves.

[Catullus64]

Hmm. I think the first build looked better to me, though that could be my own preferences.

Swashbuckler's primary advantage is its mobility, allowing you to take a lot of the heat off of yourself by getting quickly in and out of melee, adding a lot of survivability to a fairly squishy (for a melee fighter) character; combine that with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, and the older build would have been deceptively difficult to kill, despite his middling AC and HP. Sneak Attack also gave you solid ranged damage as a backup, without needing to sink the cost of Invocations and Cantrips. On top of that, you were a Rogue, the premier skillmonkey of the game (die mad, Bards).

You mostly seem to have traded that away for more damage, Charisma-focused with PAM and GWM; Draconic HP and AC are a lateral move from what you had before, so minus all those mobility and defensive Rogue features, you're pretty much entirely reliant on your spells for defense, mobility, and utility; and as a Warlock with only a dash of Sorcerer, you don't have many of those, known or in slots. All told, I think this newer build is going to do a lot of damage under very good circumstances, but struggle when things get tough or tricky.

If you'd like a less drastic critique, I'd also advise not sinking 2 Invocations into Eldritch Blast on a melee-primary build. Those invocations are possibly your most valuable class resource, which is a lot to invest in your backup attack option. I'd at least drop Agonizing and pick up something for either utility or defense (for which my top picks would be Misty Visions or Tomb of Levistus, respectively).

Sorry to be so negative, but your revision bears the telltale marks of one seduced by the siren song of higher theoretical DPR at the cost of a lot of what made the build both practical and versatile.

EDIT: Which may have been partly my fault, as I now remember that I was the one who brought up Hexblade + GWM in the first place.

[Speely]

Hmm. I think the first build looked better to me, though that could be my own preferences.

Swashbuckler's primary advantage is its mobility, allowing you to take a lot of the heat off of yourself by getting quickly in and out of melee, adding a lot of survivability to a fairly squishy (for a melee fighter) character; combine that with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, and the older build would have been deceptively difficult to kill, despite his middling AC and HP. Sneak Attack also gave you solid ranged damage as a backup, without needing to sink the cost of Invocations and Cantrips. On top of that, you were a Rogue, the premier skillmonkey of the game (die mad, Bards).

You mostly seem to have traded that away for more damage, Charisma-focused with PAM and GWM; Draconic HP and AC are a lateral move from what you had before, so minus all those mobility and defensive Rogue features, you're pretty much entirely reliant on your spells for defense, mobility, and utility; and as a Warlock with only a dash of Sorcerer, you don't have many of those, known or in slots. All told, I think this newer build is going to do a lot of damage under very good circumstances, but struggle when things get tough or tricky.

If you'd like a less drastic critique, I'd also advise not sinking 2 Invocations into Eldritch Blast on a melee-primary build. Those invocations are possibly your most valuable class resource, which is a lot to invest in your backup attack option. I'd at least drop Agonizing and pick up something for either utility or defense (for which my top picks would be Misty Visions or Tomb of Levistus, respectively).

Sorry to be so negative, but your revision bears the telltale remarks of one seduced by the siren song of higher theoretical DPR at the cost of a lot of what made the build both practical and versatile.

EDIT: Which may have been partly my fault, as I now remember that I was the one who brought up Hexblade + GWM in the first place.

Very fair points. This build definitely trades some versatility for some kinda cheesy DPR-chasing. And I agree about the EB invocations. I was going to actually solicit opinions about that specifically, but my post was getting a bit long. Misty Visions is a good shout.

About losing the skillmonkery: 100% agree that rogues offer a TON to a party in that regard, but we have a new player playing a bard and another playing a rogue, and I kinda want to let them shine there. That said, I appreciate the critique and will ponder further. we have weeks to go until session 0, so all this advice is super-welcome!

[strangebloke]

Seems really solid!

My only piece of advice is that I don't think PAM/GWM makes much sense here. Glaives and greatswords really don't work with Hex Warrior, which is one of your strongest features, and they also don't work with elven accuracy. Besides all this, if you use hex you won't have a spare BA a significant fraction of the time, and on top of this you have the hexblade's curse and eventually quicken metamagic from sorcerer (one of the best metamagic for you imo)

Just using a rapier and shield seems much more efficient, don't you agree? Consider the following:

Rapier build doesn't need PAM, so it can grab +2 CHA, for a total 20 of CHA and 16 DEX. Using shadow of moil, your character can attack twice and use the curse in the same turn. If we assume an enemy with an AC of 20, that's...

[(1d8+5+4)*2]*0.875=23.675

For contrast, the PAM build here is using a glaive, which means using STR. This makes you dependent on multiple attributes and you end up with a tradeoff between CHA (spell save DC) STR (damage/accuracy) and DEX (AC) You also don't get the benefits of Elven Accuracy when using your weapon at all. You also won't get to use your BA attack on the same turn you cast/move hex, OR on the same turn you use hexblade's curse. If we assume 18 CHA, 16 STR, and 14 DEX, against the same enemy we're left with...

[(1d10+3)*2 + (1d4+3)]*0.64=14.4

This is a little over half the damage output of the rapier build. That's really bad considering the investment, and you end up fully 3 AC behind the rapier build as well. Sure, GWM might even the scales a bit, but not enough against most enemies imo, and as you get access to things like quicken spell you'll really find yourself without any Bonus Actions to spare on PAM.

If you must use PAM, use a versatile spear, since that works with hex warrior and PAM and is only one damage less. Much superior option, even though it doesn't work with GWM.

[Amechra]

The thing is, Hex Warrior automatically applies to your Pact Weapon, even if it normally wouldn't be a legal choice. So they can use their Charisma while PAMing.

There's a reason why the Hexblade is dumb nonsense.

[Speely]

The thing is, Hex Warrior automatically applies to your Pact Weapon, even if it normally wouldn't be a legal choice. So they can use their Charisma while PAMing.

There's a reason why the Hexblade is dumb nonsense.

It really is.

[Catullus64]

Very fair points. This build definitely trades some versatility for some kinda cheesy DPR-chasing. And I agree about the EB invocations. I was going to actually solicit opinions about that specifically, but my post was getting a bit long. Misty Visions is a good shout.

About losing the skillmonkery: 100% agree that rogues offer a TON to a party in that regard, but we have a new player playing a bard and another playing a rogue, and I kinda want to let them shine there. That said, I appreciate the critique and will ponder further. we have weeks to go until session 0, so all this advice is super-welcome!

Maybe consider dropping either PAM or GWM for Mobile, so that you can retain the fundamental playstyle you would have enjoyed on the earlier build. Mobile is, I think, criminally underrated for melee builds.

I've also been making the assumption that you would have some other front-line melee combatant in the party. If that's not the case, and you're being expected to fill that roll, then I would certainly double down on investing in defensive features. d8 Hit Dice, no shield, and only your third or fourth stat to invest in Constitution means you could get downed with alarming speed.

One thing I hadn't considered is that if you go in more fully on Warlock, some better utility Invocations open up, like Ghostly Gaze, One With Shadows, Trickster's Escape*, or (if you take yourself up to Warlock 9) Ascendent Step or Whispers of the Grave.

*Ordinarily Invocations that give you one cast of a spell are pretty lame, but this one at least doesn't eat a spell slot.

[Speely]

Maybe consider dropping either PAM or GWM for Mobile, so that you can retain the fundamental playstyle you would have enjoyed on the earlier build. Mobile is, I think, criminally underrated for melee builds.

I've also been making the assumption that you would have some other front-line melee combatant in the party. If that's not the case, and you're being expected to fill that roll, then I would certainly double down on investing in defensive features. d8 Hit Dice, no shield, and only your third or fourth stat to invest in Constitution means you could get downed with alarming speed.

One thing I hadn't considered is that if you go in more fully on Warlock, some better utility Invocations open up, like Ghostly Gaze, One With Shadows, Trickster's Escape*, or (if you take yourself up to Warlock 9) Ascendent Step or Whispers of the Grave.

*Ordinarily Invocations that give you one cast of a spell are pretty lame, but this one at least doesn't eat a spell slot.

Good look on Mobile. That would play VERY well into this build. I am not hot on GWM to begin with (for this build) so Mobile would be a really good flex feat in lieu of that.

And yeah we have a Battlemaster/Armorer PC who very much wants to play the "tank." I am looking to play the off-tank who just locks a target down and then melts them... with some AoO stuff to enforce that, dependent on GM ruling (BB as an AoO is kind of a big deal here imo.)

[Gignere]

If you’re dipping sorcerer and not wearing armor is there any reason to go hexblade?

Maybe consider other patrons instead.

[strangebloke]

The thing is, Hex Warrior automatically applies to your Pact Weapon, even if it normally wouldn't be a legal choice. So they can use their Charisma while PAMing.

There's a reason why the Hexblade is dumb nonsense.

...Man, every time I come back on this site I'm reminded how little actually know of classes that my players don't use.

(in the case of hexblade, this is because I've banned it. Not because of GWM shenanigans, but because the flavor is worthless, hexblade presents problems for multiclassing, and because hexblades are actually even better at range)

[Amechra]

To be fair, the only reason I remembered that is because I was wrong earlier in this thread.

And yeah, Hexblade is one of those subclasses that you definitely need to be careful with. I've run into situations where one player was going full Hexadin while everyone else was primarily picking character options off what seemed coolest, and the DM had a bit of a hard time balancing fights.