Small Barbarian

[Estralita]

Exactly what it says on the top. I have a character in mind that fits that description, and I'm curious what the best way to build a barbarian that can't properly wield the heavy weapons Barbarians are known for.

[Cheesegear]

and I'm curious what the best way to build a barbarian that can't properly wield the heavy weapons Barbarians are known for.

Take 3 Levels in Rune Knight (Fighter; Tasha's). Become Large using Giant's Might [Proficiency] times per day - which means it isn't tied to your Fighter level at all. Wield whatever weapon you want.

The rest of the time when you're Small just wield Versatile weapons.

[gooch]

I have a Gnome barbarian/Moon druid who's a lot of fun. Pretty much a raging octopus, very, very rarely casting anything in combat.
If you want to be pure barb, that's probably not much help....
But good golly, initiating combat by asking an ally to toss you like a hand grenade, and wild shaping mid air? Fun.

[Bosh]

Small barbarians are really just fine, the only real problem is missing out on the stupid good Heavy Weapon Master feat. If you didn't want to take that anyway then you're fine. For me the most fun barbarian builds that don't use Heavy Weapon Master are rogue/barbarian multiclass builds, so maybe try one of those out for a small barbarian, it's such a great multiclass combination. Remember you can get sneak attacks with a rapier even if you're doing strength attacks with barbarian reckless attack.

[Hairfish]

If you just really want to wield a 1d12 weapon, you could try mucking about with using a lance unmounted. I'd been playing Lancer in FFXIV and was tinkering around with the idea of using a lance on a medium-sized echo knight to easily deal with the close range problem, but couldn't find a situation where using a pike and GWM didn't increase DPR by about a third.

Or you could just accept that you'll never have advantage on attacks and need to negate disadvantage, then wield a heavy weapon anyway. If you're not in an AL game, maybe your DM will take pity on you and drop a custom magical weapon in your lap or let you spend a month training with an elusive tribe of gnomish berserkers.

[Zhorn]

if you can't go for the big damage die, go for the most d6's you can with the Beast Barbarian. Small character friendly :smallbiggrin:


Assuming no feats, start each round with a light melee weapon in each hand (also assuming you are already raging at this point with claws)

Step 1: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2: Attack Action with claw
Step 3: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our starting state.
4 Attacks with a level 5 Path of the Beast Barbarian, all 100% RAW compliant and supported without featsLink into this thread to read the full post if curious of the rules that allow this to work

Check with your DM, because depending on their take on the Dual Wielder feat and Claws specifying they count as simple weapons, you can do the same number of attacks with just claws without chewing up your object interaction.
In any case duel wielder will let you dot he same as above with two d8 weapons alongside two d6 claw attacks, and the Fighting Initiate for Two-Weapon Fighting so your bonus action attack include your STR modifier on damage.

[stoutstien]

Exactly what it says on the top. I have a character in mind that fits that description, and I'm curious what the best way to build a barbarian that can't properly wield the heavy weapons Barbarians are known for.

Nothing stopping you from using a versatile weapon two handed and honestly GWM is overrated for barbarians.

[PhantomSoul]

Without the (gripe gripe gripe) Great Weapon Master Feat, you can also turn to Dual Wielding quite nicely... sure, you don't get your Ability Score Modifier on the Bonus Action Attack without a Feat or Multiclassing (and you can't make an Offhand Attack on the Turn you Rage), but making more Attacks is good for Reckless Attack and for the Rage Damage Bonus.

[Luccan]

Alternately, since you're losing out on damage anyway, you could just go sword-and-board. You'll deal the same damage as a Medium barbarian focusing on the idea and be tougher to bring down at the cost of some damage.

[nickl_2000]

Don't forget the Sword and Board Barbarian. There is nothing wrong with doing Shield Master since you still get advantage to shoving a monster prone while raging.

Especially since it gives you higher AC, combined with Ancestral Guardian to both make you harder to hit and make others want to hit you less. You won't be the best damage dealer, but you will be great at damage mitigation on others.

[Zevox]

A friend of mine spent a long time playing a Forest Gnome Barbarian. He just leaned more into being the party meat shield instead of going for damage - high con score, tough feat, 1-handed weapon (various types, wound up with a scimitar) and shield for equipment. Nothing forces you to play a Barbarian with a two-handed weapon, so just go another route with it.

[Unoriginal]

As many have said, you don't have to use an Heavy weapon as a Barbarian.

That being said, if you want to use an Heavy weapon, or a Lance at short range, you can Reckless Attacks to avoid the disadvantage.

If you don't want to use weapons at all, Beast Barbarians are a good option.

[strangebloke]

use a pair of shortswords! TWF is really good at low levels, and after level 5,6, or 7 you can multiclass into rogue and get sneak attack on them!

This is even an edge case where dual wielder is pretty good.

[Sorinth]

I would either go for a tankier guy who uses a shield and a one handed weapon (Probably Ancestral) or a TWF (Probably Beast).

[Man_Over_Game]

Gnomes are notoriously strong as Barbarians, and the Rage damage scales better with more attacks instead of big ones. In fact, the only reason Barbarians ever benefit more from big weapons is either from Great Weapon Master (which is really cliche and uninteresting) or Brutal Critical (which is probably one of the worst features in the game).

As mentioned previously in the thread, Moon Druid/Barbarian is probably one of the strongest characters in the game until you get to mid-tier stuff around level 7 or so.

[Estralita]

Thank you for all the help! Any advice for goblin barbarians in particular?

[RogueJK]

Thank you for all the help! Any advice for goblin barbarians in particular?

With Goblin's Bonus Action Disengage ability, a tactically-minded player could make good use of Ancestral Guardian's abilities as a mobile striker and tank. Attack an enemy to trigger Ancestral Protectors, then BA Disengage and move away. Enemy now has Disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and anyone they attack besides you has Resistance to the damage. So their choice would be to attack an ally for few hits and minimal damage, or try to chase after you, which may not be possible (due to positioning and/or your increased movement speed from Fast Movement) and could leave them open to Opportunity Attacks from other allies.

BA Disengage directly competes with TWF's BA attack, though. So you'd need to stick to Sword and Shield in that case.

[Gale]

Never underestimate the power of Polearm Master and Dueling!

A raging, level 5 Barbarian, with a +7 to hit, wielding a quarterstaff with both Polearm Master and the Dueling Fighting Style, who attacks an enemy with 15 AC, will do about 22.25 DPR (damage per round) or 30.32 DPR if they are using Reckless Attack.

In comparison, a Barbarian of the same level who has Great Weapon Master instead and "power attacks" for every hit will do about 18.35 DPR or 30.86 DPR if they use Reckless Attack. As you can see, they are practically identical. But GWM is actually doing less damage overall because it lacks the ability to make opportunity attacks against creatures who enter your reach.

Now obviously, Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master together are still the king. It does about 23 DPR, or 37.24 with Reckless Attack. But that requires two feats, meaning you won't have access to both until level 8 at the earliest if you're not playing a Variant Human or using Custom Lineage. On top of that it means you won't be able to increase any of your ability scores until level 12.

Personally, I think using a quarterstaff and shield is totally viable for a Barbarian. The only issue is you really need Dueling for it to not fall behind in damage. But a level of Fighter fits in really nicely after level 5. Two levels will get you action surge as well, which is great for any character. Even if you don't take Dueling you only need to be able to make an opportunity attack with PAM about 60% of the time to match the damage you would be doing with GWM alone.

The upsides of not using GWM are that you get to use a shield, meaning you'll be taking less damage, which does matter even if you're using Reckless Attack every round. A shield is +2 to AC; and a +1 shield is only an Uncommon item, compared to +1 armor which is Rare. So not only will you have more AC than usual, but it'll be easier to increase your AC in the future. You can also wield a Sentinel Shield, which is another Uncommon item that gives you advantage on both Initiative and Perception checks. If you're playing with a DM that lets makes buying magic items fairly easy this can be a huge upgrade to your character.

Additionally, you can always take Shield Master if you want. Either instead of or in addition to PAM. Being able to knock enemies prone will give any other melee characters in your party advantage on attacks against them, which will easily make up for any loss in damage from not having access to GWM. The only issue is that because you're small you cannot shove any large sized creatures. But the other benefits can still make up for it. Being able to use your reaction to take no damage whenever you succeed on a Dexterity saving throw is awesome, especially since it's likely to be a damage type that would bypass the damage resistance from Rage. It also synergizes really well with Danger Sense. It can make your already tanky character feel a lot tankier.

[RogueJK]

Never underestimate the power of Polearm Master and Dueling!

A raging, level 5 Barbarian, with a +7 to hit, wielding a quarterstaff with both Polearm Master and the Dueling Fighting Style, who attacks an enemy with 15 AC, will do about 22.25 DPR (damage per round) or 30.32 DPR if they are using Reckless Attack.


A Beast Barbarian could do the same, getting 3x d6 attacks per turn while wielding Claw + Shield, without spending a feat or using their Bonus Action each turn.

They'd actually slightly outdamage the PAM build on their standard attack routine, since PAM's BA third attack only does d4 damage instead of the d6 of your third claw attack, plus you could use that ASI to boost STR instead of acquiring PAM which puts you ahead +1 to attack/damage compared to the PAM build.

You just wouldn't get the extra OAs like PAM would have. But that alone is not worth spending a feat and a Bonus Action each turn.

(Of course, that locks you into Beast Barbarian... So PAM is still a valid option if you're dead-set on a different subclass yet still want 3x attacks per turn.)

[Man_Over_Game]

With Goblin's Bonus Action Disengage ability, a tactically-minded player could make good use of Ancestral Guardian's abilities as a mobile striker and tank. Attack an enemy to trigger Ancestral Protectors, then BA Disengage and move away. Enemy now has Disadvantage to attack anyone but you, and anyone they attack besides you has Resistance to the damage. So their choice would be to attack an ally for few hits and minimal damage, or try to chase after you, which may not be possible (due to positioning and/or your increased movement speed from Fast Movement) and could leave them open to Opportunity Attacks from other allies.

BA Disengage directly competes with TWF's BA attack, though. So you'd need to stick to Sword and Shield in that case.

Agreed, that's what I'd build, too, if I were going goblin. The shield will get value, since you're taunting people into attacking you anyway.

[Gale]

A Beast Barbarian could do the same, getting 3x d6 attacks per turn while wielding Claw + Shield, without spending a feat or using their Bonus Action each turn.

They'd actually slightly outdamage the PAM build on their standard attack routine, since PAM's BA third attack only does d4 damage instead of the d6 of your third claw attack, plus you could use that ASI to boost STR instead of acquiring PAM which puts you ahead +1 to attack/damage compared to the PAM build.

You just wouldn't get the extra OAs like PAM would have. But that alone is not worth spending a feat and a Bonus Action each turn.

(Of course, that locks you into Beast Barbarian... So PAM is still a valid option if you're dead-set on a different subclass yet still want 3x attacks per turn.)

A claw wouldn't qualify for Dueling as it isn't a "weapon wielded in one hand." So without Dueling you end up doing slightly less damage. Beast Barbarian would have a +7 to hit and would do 25.95 DPR and PAM Barbarian would have a +6 to hit and do 26.54 DPR. The difference is negligible, but if we say PAM gets an opportunity attack every other round then they do 31.09 DPR.

If you were to do what Zhorn suggested and make two claw attacks and use two-weapon fighting every turn then we end up with 31.16 DPR. Which about matches PAM, but you don't get to use a shield.

Personally, I probably wouldn't recommend Polearm Master if you are playing a Beast Barbarian. I think I would just use the claw attacks alongside two-weapon fighting. Otherwise, I do think PAM is worth it for a small Barbarian. I'm not sure anything else really contends with it except maybe Shield Master. Barbarians don't really have a use for their bonus action besides activating Rage, and I do think the extra opportunity attacks are a huge benefit.

Sidenote: I would rather not get into an argument about whether a natural weapon such as a claw works with the Dueling fighting style. If you think it works then awesome, but it doesn't make sense to me.

[gloryblaze]

A Beast Barbarian could do the same, getting 3x d6 attacks per turn while wielding Claw + Shield, without spending a feat or using their Bonus Action each turn.

They'd actually slightly outdamage the PAM build on their standard attack routine, since PAM's BA third attack only does d4 damage instead of the d6 of your third claw attack, plus you could use that ASI to boost STR instead of acquiring PAM which puts you ahead +1 to attack/damage compared to the PAM build.

You just wouldn't get the extra OAs like PAM would have. But that alone is not worth spending a feat and a Bonus Action each turn.

(Of course, that locks you into Beast Barbarian... So PAM is still a valid option if you're dead-set on a different subclass yet still want 3x attacks per turn.)


You could always take the best of both worlds and do both! Attack with a spear, BA PAM attack with the spear, drop the spear, Extra Attack with a claw, attack with a claw, Object Interaction pick up the spear so you're ready to PAM attack of opportunity if it comes up.

EDIT: and you still get to use a shield, unlike the version with TWF

[Zhorn]

You could always take the best of both worlds and do both! Attack with a spear, BA PAM attack with the spear, drop the spear, Extra Attack with a claw, attack with a claw, Object Interaction pick up the spear so you're ready to PAM attack of opportunity if it comes up.

EDIT: and you still get to use a shield, unlike the version with TWF
Still ideal to check with your particular DM on this. While it's not a ruling I've insisted on, there have been some discussions on the forums insisting that the "When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear" translates to restricting all weapon attacks that turn to be with a polearm weapon instead of the interpretation that the bonus action attack only triggers off polearm attacks.

But otherwise yes I agree, once you start adding in feats then more options will become more appealing for different benefits.

The main benefit of the Beast TWF combination is that it works with zero feats, but the inclusion of feats is still there to make it stronger.

Probably the best advice I could give on the topic is to be aware of the investment required by each build when comparing them. The more feats you need, the later it will be before it 'comes online'.

[Hairfish]

You could always take the best of both worlds and do both! Attack with a spear, BA PAM attack with the spear, drop the spear, Extra Attack with a claw, attack with a claw, Object Interaction pick up the spear so you're ready to PAM attack of opportunity if it comes up.

EDIT: and you still get to use a shield, unlike the version with TWF

By that logic, you can cast non-cantrip spells with both your bonus and regular actions in the same turn, as long as you cast the bonus action spell first. So, no.

[gloryblaze]

By that logic, you can cast non-cantrip spells with both your bonus and regular actions in the same turn, as long as you cast the bonus action spell first. So, no.

I don't see how that follows, unless you're using the rules interpretation that Zhorn mentioned (which I will concede is a fair reading of PAM, so ask your DM!) I'm a forever-DM and in my game, we don't read PAM in that (overly restrictive IMO) way. If a level 4 PAM fighter can make an attack with a one-handed spear and then a BA attack with the same spear, I don't see why next level he couldn't do the exact same thing and then also use his Extra Attack to then shove, grapple, attack with a torch, etc

[Sorinth]

Thank you for all the help! Any advice for goblin barbarians in particular?

As other's have said Goblin pairs great with Ancestral Barbarian. You can either hit and run using your BA to disengage, or use thrown weapons and BA Hide. You can switch between the two modes easily enough that you don't even have to be locked into one style.

There are actually some interesting options feat wise with Thrown weapons.
Light Hammer + Crusher can force movement and remove the need to disengage allowing you to Hide instead.
Hand-Axe + Slasher reduces their movement so when you disengage it might be tough for them to catch you or even get in range of someone else.

[Zhorn]

By that logic, you can cast non-cantrip spells with both your bonus and regular actions in the same turn, as long as you cast the bonus action spell first. So, no.I don't see how that follows, unless you're using the rules interpretation that Zhorn mentioned (which I will concede is a fair reading of PAM, so ask your DM!) I'm a forever-DM and in my game, we don't read PAM in that (overly restrictive IMO) way. If a level 4 PAM fighter can make an attack with a one-handed spear and then a BA attack with the same spear, I don't see why next level he couldn't do the exact same thing and then also use his Extra Attack to then shove, grapple, attack with a torch, etc
I think what they were also getting at was also in weaving the Bonus Action inside the Attack Action before the Attack Action was resolved.
Overly strict, but I've seen some tables rule that way regarding order of operations and can see where they get the ruling from with what things have specific allowances of what can be inserting into a action versus what must come after.

[gloryblaze]

I think what they were also getting at was also in weaving the Bonus Action inside the Attack Action before the Attack Action was resolved.
Overly strict, but I've seen some tables rule that way regarding order of operations and can see where they get the ruling from with what things have specific allowances of what can be inserting into a action versus what must come after.

I guess that is another potential issue, so also a good "ask-your-DM" question! We let pretty much anything be inserted in between the attacks of an Attack action, including bonus actions like PAM and Shield Master, despite the roller coaster of Sage Advice rulings that the issue has received.

[Zuras]

I saw a kobold mastiff rider Wolf Totem barbarian build that was pretty interesting. Used pack tactics plus the Wolf Totem rage feature to give *everyone* advantage while riding a mastiff for tremendous mobility.

[da newt]

A Kobold mounted could also use PAM and shield for AC and lots of hits to go with superior mobility, free Dash/Disengage, auto ADV, and then add in AG subclass ...

Donkey/Mules are really cheap.

[JackPhoenix]

Never underestimate the power of Polearm Master and Dueling!

A raging, level 5 Barbarian, with a +7 to hit, wielding a quarterstaff with both Polearm Master and the Dueling Fighting Style, who attacks an enemy with 15 AC, will do about 22.25 DPR (damage per round) or 30.32 DPR if they are using Reckless Attack.

You can't have PAM, Dueling FS and Extra Attack on a level 5 barbarian unless you're a vuman, and you won't have +7 to hit without rolling for ability scores.

[diplomancer]

You can't have PAM, Dueling FS and Extra Attack on a level 5 barbarian unless you're a vuman, and you won't have +7 to hit without rolling for ability scores.

You can be Custom Lineage, which does have the option of being small.

[stoutstien]

You can be Custom Lineage, which does have the option of being small.

Not quite. You still be short the fighting style at level five or you still only have a plus three to your strength modifier.

[JackPhoenix]

You can be Custom Lineage, which does have the option of being small.

Eh. I keep forgetting that piece of trash exists.