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ReluctantReaper
2007-11-15, 06:36 PM
So far I have not been anything else other then a rouge, because the DM says that while assassin's are good, the rouge gets a lot more skills other then just the death attack and other things of the assassin. I am 10 level now or so and I am jsut wondering If I should be an assassin or stay rouge.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-15, 06:45 PM
Rogue seems to be what the system is balenced against, if you use it smart and choose the right skills then you can rock the Cazbaa, if not then it sucks monumentaly. Being a Face/trapmonkey/UMD-spammer/Conman/????? can be great if you have the Hutzpah to try anything. Plus assassin isn't all it's cracked up to be. Save or Dies can be achieved in ways that don't involve class dips.

Amiria
2007-11-15, 06:45 PM
I - and I'm probably not alone in this - don't have that much experience with the Rouge. But I dug up this thread about the Rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445). Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-15, 06:49 PM
Rouge is good for one thing and one thing only... make up. It's not much of a class, though. :smallyuk:

Rogues, however...

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-15, 06:54 PM
ahh...excuse my lack of spelling skill.

greenknight
2007-11-15, 07:26 PM
A good Rogue setup includes 5 levels of the Invisible Blade PrC (from Complete Warrior) and one or two Fighter levels, and 0 or 1 Barbarian levels. By level 20, that gives you a BAB of 16 (4 attacks per round), with another 3 attacks per round from the TWF chain of feats, and one more (usually) from Opportunist. You'll also do 1d4+10d6 Sneak Attack damage per hit, using daggers. On that note, make sure at least your main dagger has the Vorpal ability, since you'll have so many attacks with it per round.

Take 2 Fighter levels if you need an extra Feat, otherwise take 1 Fighter level and 1 Barbarian level. If you can get the Barbarian variant which gives Pounce (in Complete Champion, I believe), that's nearly always a better option than 2 Fighter levels. I'm assuming Rogue is your character's favored class in this statement, or that your DM has houseruled that multiclassing XP penalties don't apply.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-15, 07:33 PM
ya im just a rogue and i think the xp thing will apply if i take one of fighter and one of barb...wouldn't that cause a penaltie.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-15, 07:37 PM
By the way I use raiper's and one is a plus 3 speed one..so ya

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-15, 07:40 PM
My suggestion: One level dip for Lion Totem Barbarian. You'll love it.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-15, 07:40 PM
what is that?

Artanis
2007-11-15, 07:58 PM
www.d20srd.org and check out "classes" under "variant rules"

MeklorIlavator
2007-11-15, 08:04 PM
Actually, the totem variant mentioned above is from the Complete Champion. The barbarians trades in Fast Movement for Pounce. That's right, for one level, you can now full attack on a charge. Widely considered one of the best dip possibilities.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-15, 08:13 PM
I prefer a little eyeliner, myself.

Draz74
2007-11-15, 08:14 PM
I - and I'm probably not alone in this - don't have that much experience with the Rouge. But I dug up this thread about the Rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445). Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

To summarize the thread, it says, "better than a straight up mascera, but not as good as a straight up eyeshadow."

nivek1234
2007-11-15, 09:36 PM
I think that the decision a pure rogue v. assassin would be dependent on what you want your character to be. If you are using your character for a lot of the social skills with some combat abilities thrown in, stay as a rogue. If you are doing a lot of combat and don't need/use all the skill-points you get, taking levels in assassin will be very helpful. I assume you meat the prereqs or they've been DMed away.

sikyon
2007-11-15, 09:38 PM
I always thought that the best rogue was one that maxed out UMD? :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2007-11-15, 09:46 PM
Rogue 20 is perfectly viable. Pick your skills decently, and you can go anywhere on the Material Plane, and do anything there, without anyone knowing. If someone else can get you to another plane, you can do all that there, too, and you're not seriously hampered by an antimagic field, or even a Disjunction.

If you're actually going to 20, a one-level dip in something else will probably make you slightly better, since you gain nothing but more skill points at rogue 20. My personal choice would be Shadowdancer, which gets Hide in Plain Sight at level 1 (far more useful, in my opinion, than Pounce). As a prestige class, it won't give you an xp penalty, and you can take it at any time (not just at 20th level) as soon as you meet the prereqs, but I wouldn't recommend taking it before level 11: Any earlier, and you're delaying your first rogue special ability, and Skill Mastery is a godsend.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-15, 10:30 PM
If nothing else, take a one-level dip in Barb. Nothing quite as awesome as raging with sneak attack. When you factor in the BAB, HD, and the fact that if you need more stats than what you have at 15 rogue, there is a problem. A dip in fighter and maybe a PrC won't hurt, either. But pure builds can be fun, and if you aren't playing with optimizers, a 20 rogue is nothing to scoff at.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-15, 10:32 PM
Honestly, it's a solid class. Sure, you can be more optomized in annother way, but you won't be weak as a straight up rogue is you pick your skills well.

Temp
2007-11-15, 10:48 PM
The question really comes down to the accessability of Wands, Scrolls and other means of spellcasting. If these items are accessable, you have nothing to gain from the Assassin class, UMD can cover your bases for you. If you need an actual spell list of your own, take Assassin; it's not the greatest spellcaster and you'll be getting your spells even later than usual, but it can work if it has to.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-15, 11:09 PM
K thanks everyone, and ya the Dm has lots of accesablity to magic devices..and I might be level 11 I am not sure though because I did get a special ability.

Person_Man
2007-11-15, 11:21 PM
If you get Complete Scoundrel you can pick up the Savvy Rogue feat, which greatly improves your special abilities. With the right build, Rogue 19/Whatever X is playable, though not particularly powerful.

If you pick up the Spell Compendium and a few other supplements, you can vastly improve your Assassin spell list. Again, you won't be particularly powerful, but Rogue 10/Assassin 10 is certainly playable.

Doresain
2007-11-16, 12:22 AM
i would only take assassin for poison use...simply because a goblin using a blowgun with poisoned darts is just amusing

Temp
2007-11-16, 12:29 AM
Rogue 19/Whatever X
[slight tangent]
This is a concept I don't really understand. Is one dead level really worth a three level delay for Epic Feats? Yes, that last level of Rogue is poorly designed, but all you get by multiclassing is some meaningless entry-level ability.

Am I missing something?
[/slight tangent]

Chronos
2007-11-16, 12:34 AM
If nothing else, take a one-level dip in Barb. Nothing quite as awesome as raging with sneak attack.Eh, I don't see that it makes much difference. Rage will basically give you a +2 to damage, compared to the +10d6 that a full (or level 19) rogue gets in Sneak Attack.

And a dip in Fighter means that six of your skills aren't going to get maxed out. That seems a steep price to pay, to me, given how much a rogue depends on skills. Shadowdancer, by contrast, only costs you two skill points, and in return, you get an ability which significantly enhances your primary skill.

Animefunkmaster
2007-11-16, 12:35 AM
The more you play dnd the more you learn that spells win... period. Depending on what books you have available and your stats you will want 3 levels of swash (maybe daring outlaw) and Assassin.

Either way max out UMD (Spells=win) and you will be fine with just about anything. Rogues, as been my experience, are all about there items.

Edit: You don't want vorpal, you want brilliant energy.

If Rokugan is available to you, look up the slayer enhancement.

tyckspoon
2007-11-16, 12:47 AM
[slight tangent]
This is a concept I don't really understand. Is one dead level really worth a three level delay for Epic Feats? Yes, that last level of Rogue is poorly designed, but all you get by multiclassing is some meaningless entry-level ability.

Am I missing something?
[/slight tangent]

Not all 'entry level' abilities are meaningless. Shadowdancer is often mentioned as a good option for Whatever X; this is because the 1st level ability of the Shadowdancer is Hide In Plain Sight. That means the Rogue no longer has to be careful about enemies who can see invisible; he can use his mundane and very high Hide and Move Silently checks anywhere there's a shadow. Which is.. basically everywhere. There are other classes out there with awesome 1st level abilities.

As for Epic feats, you still get one at character level 21 (not class level 21, note) and every three levels thereafter as normal. You'll get Epic feats quicker by leveling normally in whatever class than you will by advancing as an Epic Rogue.

Temp
2007-11-16, 12:54 AM
Ah, I've never played Epic so I never payed much attention to the Feat qualification aspect of it. I was under the impression it needed Base Class level 21 or Prestige Class level 11 to qualify for those. I guess not.

Hawriel
2007-11-16, 01:21 AM
A strate rogue is fun. You dont need to dip if you dont want to. I did with mine because I needed the extra feats and bab. All I did was take 4 levels of fighter. I also took a PRC, its the exulted from complete adventurer. Thats really the only PRC that in no way hampers a skill munky. 8 skill points per level and all skills are class skill, and you get some other skill boosting class abilities. The real sell for me was the good will save. Honestly dont worry about the rogue not being good enough. I think its one of the best classes to play strate up. Dont listen to the magic rules crowed eather. True seeing does not work on skill based stealth, and time stop will not protect a wizard from a dagger in the back. I read the spell its not as powerful as peaple think.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-16, 01:47 AM
By the way I use raiper's and one is a plus 3 speed one..so ya

See if you can invest in Boots of Speed (the one that gives Haste for 10 rounds) rather than the Rapier of Speed. It's more cost effective.

TheOOB
2007-11-16, 01:54 AM
Straight rogue doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Combat-wise the class is fairly sub-par, low hp and light armor means they can't stay in melee for long, and mid-BAB restricts their ability to hit their opponents(unlike clerics and druids they don't have any fancy spells to make them fight better). Sneak Attack is a nice sort of damage, but 35 extra average damage per an attack at level 19 isn't all that amazing, a fighter could easily match that, and a ToB class can exceed it easily. Plus, enough enemies are immune/difficult to sneak attack where it isn't completely reliable, and when an enemy is immune, your combat ability is nill.

Of course, we all know that skills are where a rogues strength lies. Rogues get a lot of skill points, and most skills, the problem is that very few skills are worth maxing out. Most skills hit their maximum usefulness after a certain number of skill points, do you really need a +30 to use rope? Plus, many skills are superceeded fairly early on by magic items and spells (acquirable via UMD). Climb, Jump, Balance, Swim, and so on, they all lose lots of usefulness once you gain ready access to scrolls and potions. Thus, it stands to reason that after taking a few levels of rogue, you can get all the skills you need up to a useful level by only taking rogue levels every few levels.

Rogue is an interesting class, there just is very little compelling reason to take all 20 levels. Rogue 20 is fairly weak, instead try a rogue16/fighter 4, rogue10/PrC10, rogue5/swordsage15, or even rogue3/wizard7/arcane trickster10. All of these combinations are much better in almost every area then a rogue, without really losing out on much of anything.

CatCameBack
2007-11-16, 02:29 AM
Well, ask yourself a few questions:

Does you DM focus on detailed character actions?
The more dramatic and flamboyant your DM makes combat, the more someone with Tumbling and Sneak Attack can prosper.

Also, do you "think on your feet" well?
This is not to say that this isn't a useful ability in other classes, but it's essential to a pure rogue. Stick and move...you can't afford to go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.

This brings up the third point.
How are you with moral relativism? Seriously, are you ok with your character running away to come back and try again? If you can't stomach a cowardly or shifty character, pure rogue probably isn't for you.

Pre-Flame: I'm not saying that you can't be a brave, noble or perfectly upstanding rogue...you just sacrifice some of the character's abilties doing so.

In short: the power level of the rogue mostly depends on how the Dm perceives them and how you do. If your campaign runs combats in a very cut-and-dried mechanical way..then, no, Rogue is never = other classes or class combinations. Rogue levels in this case are taken to get trapsense, skill levels and sneak attack dice to amplify other class features.

Also, how are rogues treated by other players and the DM? Anyone who remembers 1st ed remembers every "Thief" character in the group getting the business because they are worthless pocket-picking XP parasites.... I even had a DM once who was a Marine in real life....woe unto the player who did not roll a Ranger, warrior or Monk in his campaign :annoyed:

And yeah, there were as many "Theif" characters as there are "Rouge" characters nowadays, so don't feel bad.:smalltongue:

TheOOB
2007-11-16, 02:46 AM
Well, ask yourself a few questions:

Does you DM focus on detailed character actions?
The more dramatic and flamboyant your DM makes combat, the more someone with Tumbling and Sneak Attack can prosper.

Also, do you "think on your feet" well?
This is not to say that this isn't a useful ability in other classes, but it's essential to a pure rogue. Stick and move...you can't afford to go toe-to-toe with just about anyone.

This brings up the third point.
How are you with moral relativism? Seriously, are you ok with your character running away to come back and try again? If you can't stomach a cowardly or shifty character, pure rogue probably isn't for you.

Pre-Flame: I'm not saying that you can't be a brave, noble or perfectly upstanding rogue...you just sacrifice some of the character's abilties doing so.

In short: the power level of the rogue mostly depends on how the Dm perceives them and how you do. If your campaign runs combats in a very cut-and-dried mechanical way..then, no, Rogue is never = other classes or class combinations. Rogue levels in this case are taken to get trapsense, skill levels and sneak attack dice to amplify other class features.

Also, how are rogues treated by other players and the DM? Anyone who remembers 1st ed remembers every "Thief" character in the group getting the business because they are worthless pocket-picking XP parasites.... I even had a DM once who was a Marine in real life....woe unto the player who did not roll a Ranger, warrior or Monk in his campaign :annoyed:

And yeah, there were as many "Theif" characters as there are "Rouge" characters nowadays, so don't feel bad.:smalltongue:

Those are all great points, but there is no reason why a rogue7/swashbuckler3/duelist10 can't embody all of those same virtues while having a much better combat ability. Flavor wise rogues are great, but mechanically they just don't have much to offer at high levels.

greenknight
2007-11-16, 02:47 AM
ya im just a rogue and i think the xp thing will apply if i take one of fighter and one of barb...wouldn't that cause a penaltie.

It depends on what your character's favored class is. If it's Rogue or Any, then you won't have an XP penalty with the build I mentioned. Of the standard races, Humans, Halflings and Half-Elves would not have any penalty with that build, and Dwarves wouldn't have a penalty if you had Rogue 13/Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 5.

ReluctantReaper
2007-11-16, 08:48 AM
The Dm does incorperate a lot of tumbleing and sneak attack things into battle, and the other people In character hate the rouge, but out of character they like him because he saves their ass's all the time. I am also fine with the run away and try again technique, I think I have actually done it before too.

Person_Man
2007-11-16, 09:44 AM
[slight tangent]
This is a concept I don't really understand. Is one dead level really worth a three level delay for Epic Feats? Yes, that last level of Rogue is poorly designed, but all you get by multiclassing is some meaningless entry-level ability.

Am I missing something?
[/slight tangent]

What are you talking about? A Rogue 19/Fighter 1 or a Rogue 19/Prestige Class 1 is the same as a Rogue 20 in terms of ECL and qualifying for feats.

Draz74
2007-11-16, 12:26 PM
What are you talking about? A Rogue 19/Fighter 1 or a Rogue 19/Prestige Class 1 is the same as a Rogue 20 in terms of ECL and qualifying for feats.

I can see how it would be a one-level delay for getting bonus Epic Feats from Rogue levels ...

Of course, I think most people in this discussion were assuming a non-Epic game, too.

Temp
2007-11-16, 12:31 PM
What are you talking about? A Rogue 19/Fighter 1 or a Rogue 19/Prestige Class 1 is the same as a Rogue 20 in terms of ECL and qualifying for feats.Like I said at the end of the other page, I've never played Epic so I'm not entirely familiar with the rules. I was under the impression that only characters with Epic class levels could take Epic feats. I looked at the rules again after posting and saw I was mistaken.

Agraham
2007-11-16, 02:01 PM
The Rogue class is solid and well rounded. Here's why:

THINGS THAT TOTALLY ROCK

Sneak Attack
10d6 doesnt sound like a very big number, but you must remember that a Rogue can get a Sneak Attack on every successful strike around level 8 (Ring of Blink + Ghost Touch weapons). Sneak attack is also considered energy damage when your attack only deals energy damage, so a well played 11+ level rogue would use +1 Flasks of Acid / Aclhemist Fire / Alchemist Frost / Holy Water / Unholy Water of Ghost Touch pumped up with greater magic weapon to something level appropriate. Do not forget about the Two Weapon Fighting Feat Tree. At level 19+, doing 6 touch attacks that deal an average total of 282 fire damage ((2d6 (7) + 10d6 (35) + 5)*6) is nothing to sneeze at.

Use Magic Device
The best skill in the game, hands down. Why, you ask? Spells rule, skills drool. Get yourself a staff of Holy Word, Dictum, Blasphemy, or Word of Chaos and a +30 Skill Item of UMD, and laugh and laugh at everyone who's dumb enough to get close to you. Scrolls of Detect magic, find Traps, Detect pits and Snares, Greater Invisibility, Blink, Greater Blink, Energy Immunity, Righteous Might, Divine Power, Polymorph, ad nausium are yours to use and abuse for "Real Ultimate Power." This skill must be mastered at level 10, regardless of what else you select.

Special Abilities
These just generally rock: Skill Mastery, Slippery Mind, Improved Evasion, and the Bonus Feat. A special shout out needs to go to the Bonus Feat, because Bonus Feats have no prerequisites, you basically get to select anything your hearts desires, including the supercool crazy stuff like Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and Infinite Deflection from the Epic Level Handbook, or Swallow Whole from the Draconomicon; seriously, go nuts.

THINGS THAT APPEAR LAME

Sneak Attack
Crack open your DMG and look at the random monster tables. Hopefully you noticed that about 1/4 of the monsters on those tables are immune to your sneak attack. Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Plants... but the worst offenders are Undead. You are seriously expected to compleatly suck about 1/4 of the random fights you have, right? WRONG! Crack open your or your friend's copy of Dungeon Scape and trade out your lame trapsense (you know, the one that provides a +1 on reflex saves vs. Traps? YAWN.) for the ability to do 1/2 normal sneak attack against everything previously immune, OR you could just suck it up (If you lack the book or are in a CORE only game) and do something compleaty and arbitrairly awesome with your UMD skill (Scroll/Staff/Wand of Web, Enervation, anything really just to pass the time)

Low HP
Can anyone tell me the average difference in HP gain from a d6 compared to a d12? 3 hp, thats it. Do you know the MINIMUM CON modifier you WILL have at around level 15? +5 (+6 enhancement item, +5 inherent), and that's starting with a 10 CON. At level 20, a Rogue can expect to have 76 hp from Hit Dice, conpared to 142 hp for a Barbarian, and each will add AT LEAST 100 hp on top of that (more like 140 with a 14 starting CON (150 for a dwarf)). You will gain the bulk of your HP from your CON modifier, and from spells like Giant size from the Compleat Arcane which grant size bonuses to your CON.

Light Armor
Seriously, who cares? You need and AC around 70 to be nigh invincible (because a 20 always hits), So lets see how high I can get it without even trying.

Deep Halfling
+11 (Base AC 10 + 1 Size)
+11 (33 Dexterity: 15 Base + 2 Racial + 5 level + 6 item + 5 inherent)
+9 (+5 Celestial Mithral Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification)
+6 (+5 Animated Light Mithral Shield)
+5 (Natural Armor)
+5 (Deflection)
+47 AC

Total AC difference if Heavy Armor AND a Tower Shield were Used instead: +8 AC
Whoo-pa-di-doo.

A better bet is to layer on Greater Blink, Improved Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image for a 1 in 64 chance of even touching you (1/2*1/2*1/2*1/8). And a Rogue can totally do just that.

IN CONCLUSION

Rogues Rock, Kick Butt, and Take Names. Though they are the Robin to the Wizard's batman, they are a solid and well rounded class capable of pulling their own in a fight and pull someone else's fat out of the fryer too.

Temp
2007-11-16, 02:09 PM
...because Bonus Feats have no prerequisites...
Where did you get that idea? Nothing says a Rogue can bypass prerequisites and nothing says Bonus Feats ignore prerequisites either.

Curmudgeon
2007-11-16, 03:19 PM
Straight rogue doesn't have a whole lot going for it.
...
Sneak Attack is a nice sort of damage, but 35 extra average damage per an attack at level 19 isn't all that amazing, a fighter could easily match that You clearly haven't put much effort into trying to make an effective Rogue, TheOOB. Your "35 extra average damage" comparison number for a Rogue is equivalent to a Fighter who doesn't use Power Attack, because there are a couple of really obvious boosts that a Rogue can use:

Craven feat gives +1 sneak attack damage/character level:+19 per attack at level 19.
Touch spells (which a Rogue can use with UMD) require only hitting touch AC, but add sneak attack damage to the spell damage.

Jacob Orlove
2007-11-16, 04:14 PM
Where did you get that idea? Nothing says a Rogue can bypass prerequisites and nothing says Bonus Feats ignore prerequisites either.
The monster manual is pretty clear on this. From the SRD:

Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

Temp
2007-11-16, 04:16 PM
The monster manual is pretty clear on this. From the SRD:

Monster bonus feat blurbInductive reasoning is not conclusive.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 04:30 PM
Of course, we all know that skills are where a rogues strength lies. Rogues get a lot of skill points, and most skills, the problem is that very few skills are worth maxing out. Most skills hit their maximum usefulness after a certain number of skill points, do you really need a +30 to use rope? Plus, many skills are superceeded fairly early on by magic items and spells (acquirable via UMD).Find me a spell that can replace a maxed-out Hide skill, and then we'll talk. Or a maxed-out Move Silently, or a maxed-out Disguise, or Spot, or Listen, or Sleight of Hand. There are spells which can attempt to do all of those things, but none of them are as good as the skills.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-16, 04:50 PM
Inductive reasoning is not conclusive.

By this reasoning a wizard can use his bonus feats to get things without their prereqs, like greater spell focus and greater penetration, augment summoning etc.. it's a cheap trick that stinks to high heaven even if the rules as written don't expressly forbid it.

Temp
2007-11-16, 04:55 PM
By this reasoning a wizard can use his bonus feats to get things without their prereqs, like greater spell focus and greater penetration, augment summoning etc.. it's a cheap trick that stinks to high heaven even if the rules as written don't expressly forbid it. No, by this reasoning a Wizard can not skip prerequisites for his bonus feats.

So yes, it would be a "cheap trick" and it would "stink to high heaven."

Jacob Orlove
2007-11-16, 05:05 PM
By this reasoning a wizard can use his bonus feats to get things without their prereqs, like greater spell focus and greater penetration, augment summoning etc.. it's a cheap trick that stinks to high heaven even if the rules as written don't expressly forbid it.
Nope! Here's the text from the Wizard bonus feats:

At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
Fighters have the same restriction on their bonus feats, but Rogues, oddly enough, do not.

Monks and Rangers, by contrast, are allowed to take (and use) bonus feats they would not qualify for otherwise. Similarly, Clerics can make use of bonus feats granted via domains even if the Cleric does not meet the prerequisite for the feat itself (e.g. not having +1 BAB for Weapon Focus). The same applies to the Rogue.

Chronos
2007-11-16, 05:43 PM
Monks and Rangers, by contrast, are allowed to take (and use) bonus feats they would not qualify for otherwise.Yes, because their bonus feat abilities specifically say they're allowed to. Even there, though, if one of them already has a feat they would gain for free, they still have to meet all qualifications for whatever they get instead.

The rogue ability doesn't need to say that the rogue needs to meet all prerequisites, because that's already the rule unless stated otherwise, and the rogue ability doesn't state otherwise.