Questions about Web

[Cicciograna]

My Wizard has the spell Web, and I want to make sure I read the text correctly.

Let's say that I cast the spell, and one opponent is in the area of the webs. They do NOT make the saving throw for the restraint when I cast the spell, but only at the beginning of their round, right? So, if before their turn the opponent was forced to move, say by a Warlock with Repelling blast, the opponent would move without impediment, since by the rules they haven't rolled their Dex ST and thus had no chance to be restrained, right?

Then, their turn arrives, they fail the Dex ST and then they are restrained. As per the spell, they can use their action to make a Strength check and not be restrained anymore. If they succeed, their speed is not 0 anymore, so they can use their movement action to leave the web (albeit moving at half speed for difficult terrain), correct?

Thank you for the input.

[Xihirli]

This is all mostly correct, but forced movement is not the same thing as moving. Restrained reduces your speed to 0, it does not reduce the amount of distance you can be pushed. You are, of course, free to rule that it will be impossible or harder to push them once the webs are holding them still, but RAW the monster being restrained can be Repelling Blasted out of the webs or deeper into the webs as per usual.

[KorvinStarmast]

...RAW the monster being restrained can be Repelling Blasted out of the webs or deeper into the webs as per usual. That's how we've tended to play it.

[Unoriginal]

My Wizard has the spell Web, and I want to make sure I read the text correctly.

Let's say that I cast the spell, and one opponent is in the area of the webs. They do NOT make the saving throw for the restraint when I cast the spell, but only at the beginning of their round, right?

They make the saving throw at the beginning of their turn or when they walk into the AoE, yes, not before.



So, if before their turn the opponent was forced to move, say by a Warlock with Repelling blast, the opponent would move without impediment, since by the rules they haven't rolled their Dex ST and thus had no chance to be restrained, right?

Repelling Blast and other "throw the enemy across the room" effects are not affected by the restrained condition or anything else reducing the target's speed to 0, so they would be moved by Repelling Blast without impediment even if they had rolled the saving thrown and failed it.



Then, their turn arrives, they fail the Dex ST and then they are restrained. As per the spell, they can use their action to make a Strength check and not be restrained anymore. If they succeed, their speed is not 0 anymore, so they can use their movement action to leave the web (albeit moving at half speed for difficult terrain), correct?

Correct.

[Cicciograna]

Thank you for the replies. I see that forced movement is not subject to the "restrained" clause. What about the movement from Dissonant Whispers? Is it still counted as "forced movement"? A reading of the spell would lead me to think that no, it's not a "push", it's the creature willingingly moving away with its reaction. The movement would technically be unimpeded (apart from the difficult terrain caused by Web), because the DW effect would take place before the Dex ST from Web, so the opponent would never have the possibility of getting restrained. Is this reading correct, RAW?

Would it be game breaking to call for a Dex ST the moment any (non-forced) movement action is taken in the Web, rather than at the beginning of the target's turn?

[Xihirli]

Dissonant says "as far as its speed allows" so if it is grappled or restrained that is 0.

[Cicciograna]

Yes, I wasn't clear enough. Suppose I cast Web, then a Bard casts DW right after me, and before the beginning of the turn of my opponent. The opponent didn't have to check for restrained yet (their turn is still to come!), so her speed would still be normal. Hence my question about the change of the clause calling for the ST from "at the beginning of the turn" to "at the beginning of the turn and whenever non-forced movement in the Web takes place".

[Xihirli]

Web does not say "whenever you move inside the web" it says "each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn."

[Cicciograna]

Web does not say "whenever you move inside the web" it says "each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn."

Exactly my point. In a situation in which:


Wizard casts Web on Opponent. Opponent is NOT restrained because they didn't roll the ST yet.
Bard casts Dissonant Whispers on Opponent. Opponent fails the Wisdom ST: their speed is not restricted because they never became restrained, and let's say they leave the Web area.
Opponent turn comes, and since they moved away from the Web they don't need to roll any ST,

Opponent would willingly move through the Web without having to roll anything against it, because the way the Web spell is worded, Opponent should only have to make the ST at the beginning of their turn, or when they enter the Web in their turn. This should be the RAW interpretation, but I was objecting to its soundness because this Web that only comes into play in the targets' turn leaves me a sour taste in the mouth.

Hence my suggestion for a change of the ST clause for the Web spell. Rather than:


"Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw",

I was wondering if changing it to:


"Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that takes any non-forced movement in it must make a Dexterity saving throw."

would be game breaking.

EDIT: I just realized that this would mess up moving through the Web after breaking free with the Strength check. The creature would be free but unable to move without having to make an additional ST to move out, and this might make the spell a bit overpowered.

[Sorinth]

I generally ignore the "on the creatures turn" portion of the wording and have the creature make a saving throw if they move under their own power. So things like Dissonant Whispers, Fear, even Infestation would all force a saving throw if they move in the Web. For things that push or pull the creature I don't have them force saving throws, and they will even break the restrained condition if it was active. Basically I say if the effect is strong enough to push/pull the person it's strong enough to break the webs restraining them as well.

[Cicciograna]

I generally ignore the "on the creatures turn" portion of the wording and have the creature make a saving throw if they move under their own power. So things like Dissonant Whispers, Fear, even Infestation would all force a saving throw if they move in the Web.

That's what I was thinking, but with this reading one immediately incurs in the issue of what happens if the creature simply moves through the Web.
Let's say that a creature starts her turn in the Web. They roll the ST and fail. Then they use their actions to make the Strength check, and they succeed. When they use their movement action to leave the Web, as per your reading they should immediately make another Dex ST. Is this how you run it? I am genuinely asking, not being sarcastic. Doesn't this make the spell too powerful?

[Sorinth]

That's what I was thinking, but with this reading one immediately incurs in the issue of what happens if the creature simply moves through the Web.
Let's say that a creature starts her turn in the Web. They roll the ST and fail. Then they use their actions to make the Strength check, and they succeed. When they use their movement action to leave the Web, as per your reading they should immediately make another Dex ST. Is this how you run it? I am genuinely asking, not being sarcastic. Doesn't this make the spell too powerful?

If they pass the strength check I wouldn't make them make the dex save to move around for that turn. I generally don't get too hung up on the actual wording. But if you need it in written form then yeah add an extra line or two to clarify they don't need to make an extra save if they break out. Similarly if they pass the dex save at the start of turn they don't need to make another one when they move, and they can interrupt their move perform an action and continue to move as normal with only ever having to make 1 save.

[Reach Weapon]

Then, their turn arrives, they fail the Dex ST and then they are restrained.
"On a failed save, the creature is restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/web)"
Strictly interpreted, as long as that out-of-turn movement took them out of the web's area, they wouldn't even need to make the saving throw. This probably doesn't change how it would ultimately work for say a Scout using Skirmisher movement, but could allow something like a Glamour's Mantle of Inspiration to use out-of-turn movement to run less dexterous characters through webs without the possibility of restraint too.


Would it be game breaking to call for a Dex ST the moment any (non-forced) movement action is taken in the Web, rather than at the beginning of the target's turn?
"Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw. (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/web)"
I don't think I ever even noticed the provision I'll continue ignoring. I know which version I think is broken.

[Chronos]

By the RAW, yes, a Dissonant Whispers before the enemy's turn could let them leave the web without ever having to make a save. But I think it would be quite reasonable to houserule otherwise, if that ever came up.

Though, if it did ever come up, I would think that the party should really work on coordinating their tactics.

[Cicciograna]

At the end of the day I talked to my DM. He decided to have the ST triggered at the beginning of the round or if any non-forced movement in the web takes place, with the condition that it can be triggered only once per creature round. This should solve the issue.


Though, if it did ever come up, I would think that the party should really work on coordinating their tactics.

My group has no concept of tactics whatsoever, and I asked the question, with the reference to Dissonant Whispers exactly because I am 99.9% sure that the worst offender of my group, the Bard, will eventually do it. Last session I was able to coordinate a modicum, asking the Bard to cast Cloud of Daggers, rather than Dissonant Whispers, on the creature entangled in the web, but I consider it an exception to the rule.

[Sorinth]

By the RAW, yes, a Dissonant Whispers before the enemy's turn could let them leave the web without ever having to make a save. But I think it would be quite reasonable to houserule otherwise, if that ever came up.

Though, if it did ever come up, I would think that the party should really work on coordinating their tactics.

Ignoring the RAW, Dissonant Whispers should logically be a strong tactic with Web. If someone is running away in fear they probably aren't making their way through the webs carefully. So it makes sense that there is that extra saving throw since the target is more likely to be caught in them then normal. Tactically it also makes sense to use Dissonant Whispers in conjunction with web since even if the target isn't re-caught in the webs, they are still going to be on the wrong side of the web and would need to go through the web to get into melee.

The main thing to consider with all these AoE spells that have saving throws at the start of a turn or when they first enter is that generally you want to avoid forcing multiple saves a turn because that's a significant power boost for the spell. That said in some circumstances it might make sense just like how the DM might give out advantage/disadvantage on any saving throw due to certain circumstances. For me Dissonant Whispers is one of those cases where it makes sense to force that extra saving throw. And since Cloud of Daggers was brought up, that's a case where I would probably grant advantage to the restrained creature to break free of the webs since the daggers are logically also cutting/weakening the webs holding the creature.

[Keltest]

Ignoring the RAW, Dissonant Whispers should logically be a strong tactic with Web. If someone is running away in fear they probably aren't making their way through the webs carefully.

DW includes a clause that it cant force somebody to run into "obviously dangerous" terrain. While the given examples are fire or a pit, i think a fair argument could be made that webbed terrain is considered dangerous, whether due to flammability or the possibility of being stuck, and thus DW wouldnt allow you to enter into the web in the first place.

[Cicciograna]

DW includes a clause that it cant force somebody to run into "obviously dangerous" terrain. While the given examples are fire or a pit, i think a fair argument could be made that webbed terrain is considered dangerous, whether due to flammability or the possibility of being stuck, and thus DW wouldnt allow you to enter into the web in the first place.

To be honest, in all of my examples the target is already in the web when subject to DW, but this is certainly an interesting point. Ultimately I guess that might be a DM decision.
Personally I would rule that the target avoids the web, because they are not in panic mode, but have some kind of compulsion to flee, and I'd judge this difference enough to still be able to discern a web as a potentially dangerous terrain. Of course other people's mileage may vary.

[Keltest]

To be honest, in all of my examples the target is already in the web when subject to DW, but this is certainly an interesting point. Ultimately I guess that might be a DM decision.
Personally I would rule that the target avoids the web, because they are not in panic mode, but have some kind of compulsion to flee, and I'd judge this difference enough to still be able to discern a web as a potentially dangerous terrain. Of course other people's mileage may vary.

As a DM, my personal rule of thumb is that if a person wouldnt be willing to walk through the terrain instead of around it if they had an alternative at hand, its sufficiently dangerous as to trigger clauses such as that or the "obviously harmful" clauses from earlier edition domination effects.

[Sorinth]

DW includes a clause that it cant force somebody to run into "obviously dangerous" terrain. While the given examples are fire or a pit, i think a fair argument could be made that webbed terrain is considered dangerous, whether due to flammability or the possibility of being stuck, and thus DW wouldnt allow you to enter into the web in the first place.

I tend to consider obviously dangerous to mean deal damage right away. So Web isn't obviously dangerous in my games, but I can see the arguments for your way so I don't stress about it either way.

Out of curiosity if someone is at the edge of a swamp, would you have Dissonant Whispers cause someone to run into the swamp? You can easily get stuck, hurt yourself, or even drown if you just start running through a swamp. But I'm not sure I would consider that obviously dangerous in terms of DW.

[Keltest]

I tend to consider obviously dangerous to mean deal damage right away. So Web isn't obviously dangerous in my games, but I can see the arguments for your way so I don't stress about it either way.

Out of curiosity if someone is at the edge of a swamp, would you have Dissonant Whispers cause someone to run into the swamp? You can easily get stuck, hurt yourself, or even drown if you just start running through a swamp. But I'm not sure I would consider that obviously dangerous in terms of DW.

"Swamp" isnt really a terrain in and of itself, IMO. Its a biome. You have land and other visibly solid surfaces, you have water and other visibly non-solid surfaces, and then you have mud and seemingly shallow puddles and such which you cant tell. Visibly deep water and other unstable footing would be obviously dangerous. Deceptively deep mud and puddles that arent actually as shallow as they look would not be. In the case of the puddles i might use passive perception or investigation to determine whether they can tell if its deep or if they just take it at face value and hope.