Which Ki formula would you prefer and why?

[Dork_Forge]

Title says it all really, here's three options:

1) Standard, Ki=level

2) Ki=level+2

3) Ki=level+Wis

I have deliberately not included prof bonus because I don't want to favour later levels that I don't think really need a bump.

[KorvinStarmast]

3) Ki=level+Wis I like this since it parallels the spell prep formula used by caster classes.

[Greywander]

I have deliberately not included prof bonus because I don't want to favour later levels that I don't think really need a bump.
Level and proficiency are comparable quantities. Namely, they both improve as your level increases, but at different rates with different initial values. It wouldn't ever really make sense to use both together, you'd use one or the other depending on which scaling rate you wanted (though I suppose you could combine them to get a third scaling rate option).

With that in mind, you could opt for something like this:

(4) Prof + WIS mod, but you regain 1 ki at the start of each turn.

I'd also increase the ki cost for all your abilities by at least 1, and might need to manually reconfigure ki costs for each ability. What this does is limit how much ki you can dump out at once, while allowing you to use your ki abilities virtually indefinitely over a protracted fight, and insuring you enter every fight with max ki.

I'm not saying this would necessarily be a good idea, I'm just presenting an alternative that might give you some ideas. If you use proficiency bonus instead of level, total ki is reduced, so there needs to be something else that balances that out. On the other hand, this could be used for other, non-ki features, and a number of Tasha's subclasses do in fact use proficiency bonus this way to limit the number of uses for special features.

[Sorinth]

I'm not sure how +Prof favours higher levels but +Wis doesn't. Anyways, assuming you want more ki in early levels and don't mind less Ki at higher levels I would suggest: 1/2 Monk level (Round up) + Wis. You have more Ki throughout Tier 1, have similar Ki in Tier 2, and start falling behind in Tiers 3+. Maybe give out a Perfect Self somewhere around level 15 instead of it being the capstone since it's fairly weak capstone anyways.

[Dork_Forge]

Level and proficiency are comparable quantities. Namely, they both improve as your level increases, but at different rates with different initial values. It wouldn't ever really make sense to use both together, you'd use one or the other depending on which scaling rate you wanted (though I suppose you could combine them to get a third scaling rate option).

With that in mind, you could opt for something like this:

(4) Prof + WIS mod, but you regain 1 ki at the start of each turn.

I'd also increase the ki cost for all your abilities by at least 1, and might need to manually reconfigure ki costs for each ability. What this does is limit how much ki you can dump out at once, while allowing you to use your ki abilities virtually indefinitely over a protracted fight, and insuring you enter every fight with max ki.

I'm not saying this would necessarily be a good idea, I'm just presenting an alternative that might give you some ideas. If you use proficiency bonus instead of level, total ki is reduced, so there needs to be something else that balances that out. On the other hand, this could be used for other, non-ki features, and a number of Tasha's subclasses do in fact use proficiency bonus this way to limit the number of uses for special features.

I don't want to use prof at all, and redoing the Ki costs for all abilities is a class rework, this is just 'huh Monks could do with a touch more Ki' rather than less Ki and more expensive abilities...


I'm not sure how +Prof favours higher levels but +Wis doesn't. Anyways, assuming you want more ki in early levels and don't mind less Ki at higher levels I would suggest: 1/2 Monk level (Round up) + Wis. You have more Ki throughout Tier 1, have similar Ki in Tier 2, and start falling behind in Tiers 3+. Maybe give out a Perfect Self somewhere around level 15 instead of it being the capstone since it's fairly weak capstone anyways.

I think Ki in higher levels is about right, I don't necessarily want to bump it, but I certainly don't want to nerf it either.

Tying Wis mod to half Monk level forces you to have a certain level of Wis and limits build options. If you do level+Wis and dump Wis for whatever reason, then your floor is the PHB Monk. The proposed formula is not a straight bump and increases the MADness of the Monk substantially.

Assuming a Monk that starts with a 16, and favours Dex (not bumping Wis until after Dex is max), your formula breaks down as:

Higher, levels 1-5

Break even, levels 6-7

Fall behind at level 8 and beyond, pretty much smack bang in the middle of Tier 2

If you start with a 14 instead of 16 Wis for any any reason, or even a 15, then the break even becomes 4/5 and the fall behind becomes level 6.

To answer your actual question (kinda): Prof is fixed to your character level and scales throughout 1-20, with a swing of +4 in that progression. Wis is a choice, but most of that bonus can be achieved from level 1 with a swing of +2 happening when you want it to.

[Amechra]

I think Greywander's suggestion would work just fine if you made the ki-regeneration just a combat thing (flavor it as adrenaline or something). It'd feel a bit weird, since you'd lose some nova capability for way more stamina. It'd also give you space to buff up some older Monk subclasses — letting Kensei use Deft Strike for 1 ki or a Four Elements Monk use their Disciplines for their original cost would definitely make them feel stronger than they currently are.

[MaxWilson]

Title says it all really, here's three options:

1) Standard, Ki=level

2) Ki=level+2

3) Ki=level+Wis

I have deliberately not included prof bonus because I don't want to favour later levels that I don't think really need a bump.

I'm fine with all of them but if everything else in the game is RAW I sort of like #3 the best. I don't think the monk's primary problem is ki shortage but the Wis bump might help them at low levels.

If the monk gets access to other house rules and rules variants like Ki Fueled Strike and getting to substitute Wisdom (Athletics) for Strength (Athletics), then I'd go with #1, and I think that puts them in a better place than the extra ki does.

[Dork_Forge]

I think Greywander's suggestion would work just fine if you made the ki-regeneration just a combat thing (flavor it as adrenaline or something). It'd feel a bit weird, since you'd lose some nova capability for way more stamina. It'd also give you space to buff up some older Monk subclasses — letting Kensei use Deft Strike for 1 ki or a Four Elements Monk use their Disciplines for their original cost would definitely make them feel stronger than they currently are.

IMO it's both too fiddly and too much work. For a player keeping track of a Ki pool that constantly shifts every turn whether or not they do something (assuming the pool isn't full) is... not a good feeling. And you would need to shift things around, because capping the pool like that significantly changes how the RAW abilities are intended to be used.


I'm fine with all of them but if everything else in the game is RAW I sort of like #3 the best. I don't think the monk's primary problem is ki shortage but the Wis bump might help them at low levels.

If the monk gets access to other house rules and rules variants like Ki Fueled Strike and getting to substitute Wisdom (Athletics) for Strength (Athletics), then I'd go with #1, and I think that puts them in a better place than the extra ki does.

For context I allow all Tasha's optional rules, the only additional thing I'd do is play with the Ki formula. I wouldn't personally do the athletic's thing because it steps on the Astral Self's toes.

With that context and it not needing to be an either/or, does that change your preference?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd be down allowing monks to have an expanded ki pool equaling their level+Wis modifier. Monks have the biggest issues in the early game, and once they hit mid-game, a half dozen extra points won't make that huge of a difference. I also like the symmetry with casters adding their casting stat to the spells known and monks adding to the ki ppol. Seems fitting.

I've been playing around with a monk rework where they get their proficiency bonus in ki per turn, but the balance is fiddly with anything that needs a significant ki expenditure (notably anything 4E or spell replication).

[ff7hero]

I like the second formula. My monk PC (8th level playing through Whiteplume Mountain) felt super starved for Ki. I never used Patient Defense or Step of the Wind, and only used Flurry/Stuns on obviously big threats.

I had built to have Ki-free interesting choices (Athletics Expertise from a feat (UA Brawny as this was pre-Tasha's and then I got to start with a Belt of 21 Strength), but if I hadn't I would have been a boring but effective character spamming Spear/Spear/Kick for most of the low impact fights.

5 more Ki (I'd maxed Wis for AC and DCs) would have made a world of difference. There were a few places were Step of the Wind and maybe even Patient Defense would have been used, and being able to Stun/Flurry a little more often also would have been nice.

[stoutstien]

I'd vote and personally use + Wis mod. It's not perfect but it goes a long way in the early game.

[Dork_Forge]

I like the second formula. My monk PC (8th level playing through Whiteplume Mountain) felt super starved for Ki. I never used Patient Defense or Step of the Wind, and only used Flurry/Stuns on obviously big threats.

I had built to have Ki-free interesting choices (Athletics Expertise from a feat (UA Brawny as this was pre-Tasha's and then I got to start with a Belt of 21 Strength), but if I hadn't I would have been a boring but effective character spamming Spear/Spear/Kick for most of the low impact fights.

5 more Ki (I'd maxed Wis for AC and DCs) would have made a world of difference. There were a few places were Step of the Wind and maybe even Patient Defense would have been used, and being able to Stun/Flurry a little more often also would have been nice.

Sorry your post confused me toward the end, you chose level+2, but I think you may have meant level+Wis?

[Bobthewizard]

In an upcoming campaign, I am planning on using Ki = level + WIS, and including that Step of the Wind and Patient Defense do not cost any Ki. They already cost your extra attacks, so I don't think they should cost Ki too.

[stoutstien]

In an upcoming campaign, I am planning on using Ki = level + WIS, and including that Step of the Wind and Patient Defense do not cost any Ki. They already cost your extra attacks, so I don't think they should cost Ki too.

Careful making patient defense free. That would be a very potent dip for anyone looking to increase their survivability and mitigation.

[MaxWilson]

For context I allow all Tasha's optional rules, the only additional thing I'd do is play with the Ki formula. I wouldn't personally do the athletic's thing because it steps on the Astral Self's toes.

With that context and it not needing to be an either/or, does that change your preference?

[Consults Tasha's]

For a Wis 18 monk at level 4, we're talking two extra heals at d4+2 each (total 9 HP), or an extra 1-4 hits per long rest. At level 5 that rises to 13 HP, or 4 extra stuns. A full caster gets 9 spells per day at that point, whereas you're getting 9 ki per short rest = 9 extra hits or 9 stun attempts or 26 extra HP.

Hmm.

I could live with the HP, but almost doubling your number of stuns per short rest feels a little bit unnecessary when you're already getting the other Tasha's goodies. On the other hand, Tasha's is a little bit power creep-y across the board (Aura of Vitality for everybody!) so in that context maybe +Wis would be fine. I don't know, don't have experience with running Tasha's.

So my answer is "ki = lvl in that case, unless more ki is needed to keep up with Tasha's power creep for other classes / encounters."

[Dork_Forge]

[Consults Tasha's]

For a Wis 18 monk at level 4, we're talking two extra heals at d4+2 each (total 9 HP), or an extra 1-4 hits per long rest. At level 5 that rises to 13 HP, or 4 extra stuns. A full caster gets 9 spells per day at that point, whereas you're getting 9 ki per short rest = 9 extra hits or 9 stun attempts or 26 extra HP.

Hmm.

I could live with the HP, but almost doubling your number of stuns per short rest feels a little bit unnecessary when you're already getting the other Tasha's goodies. On the other hand, Tasha's is a little bit power creep-y across the board (Aura of Vitality for everybody!) so in that context maybe +Wis would be fine. I don't know, don't have experience with running Tasha's.

So my answer is "ki = lvl in that case, unless more ki is needed to keep up with Tasha's power creep for other classes / encounters."

Fair enough, it was interesting to see your thoguht process on it, ime Monks tend to be all over the place with what they'd do so it's more likely to be something along the line of two extra flurries and two stuns, or guaranteeing a one or two hits, though you could take a single thing and ramp it all the way up yes.

For the record on running Tasha's, and this is just a side track I thought you may find interesting since I know you don't run it:

Aura of Vitality - I'm only really recently starting to see that pop up more, and it's something I'm inclined to say no to. On a full caster it's too good and I like it being a Paladin spell primarily.

Moving stats around - This is a case by case I have players ask me about, I find that they don't change their decisions, they just end up with slightly better stats. I don't like this being an optional rule, because some players feel entitled to it, I don't mind doing it sometimes because it's something I'd have done with a player anyway if they asked (usually).

Ranger - FF sucks, I let the Ranger in one of my games keep the free Hunter's Mark from UA and just used the rest of it. It's nice overall, side note I just treat the beast master companion (Earth) as a separate creature. This is certainly a buff, but she's also someone the players actually try to heal and keep from dying instead of treating as expendable so it works.

Burning CD for slots - Only seen this used by Paladins, I like it, it doesn't feel like a bad buff. It should be noted that the Paladins in my games favour spellcasting more than I think is typical.

Custom Lineage - Not in my games

Barbarian half dash on Rage - feels nice and on theme

That Sorcery Points feat - meh, it's a little tiny nova on a non Sorc, nice bump for actual sorcs

That's just some scattershot thoughts, I by and large like the subclasses that I've ran for or played from it, blaster orientated Stars Druids... eh feel a bit much to me.

[stoutstien]

Interesting enough since I've added on Wis mod for ki players tend to stun Nova less often rather than more. Subclass abilities seem to be what they spend the extra ki on by the largest margin followed by PD then everything else. SS still gets thrown out but because they don't feel like it's that or nothing they just don't lean on it as much.

[MaxWilson]

Fair enough, it was interesting to see your thoguht process on it, ime Monks tend to be all over the place with what they'd do so it's more likely to be something along the line of two extra flurries and two stuns, or guaranteeing a one or two hits, though you could take a single thing and ramp it all the way up yes.

I agree, was just simplifying for the sake of a BOTE comparison. I can totally see someone using 1 ki on +2 to hit followed by Stunning Strike on that hit followed by a bonus action Flurry of Blows and another Stunning Strike attempt, for example.

Thanks for the thoughts on Tasha's.

[Hael]

One of the monks issues is that it seems WOTC designed their ki use to fall in line with their base class, but then tied in subclass usage and forgot to compensate. I almost prefer if the subclass features used a different resource.

Notable offenders are the Astral monk and the four element monk. At the lvls they get their features, it doesn’t even make sense. For instance at lvl six for an astral monk, they can activate both their feature in two combats per SR, leaving them with two ki for other things in those two combats.. No sane player would ever do that though. So, in practise at those lvls, you often dont get to use your subclass features for a good percent of combats and that feels very clunky.

Ludic made a great point once, that if you removed a few abilities (stunning strike, the heal, ki fueled attack and a few others), that it wouldn’t feel all that imbalanced if you set ki points to infinity. For instance, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if flurry of blows, patient defense or step of the wind was resource free given that they are in competition with each other.

As far as the proposed formulas, while they are all improvements it’s going to massively depend on the campaign. I’ve learned that the majority of the 5e tables don’t play the game anywhere near like my groups do, often discounting short rests entirely. It’s hard to balance a game when half the player base does not adhere to the suggested points of encounter balance (it would be useful if the designers could outline rules to adjust class balance given different preferences)

[ff7hero]

Sorry your post confused me toward the end, you chose level+2, but I think you may have meant level+Wis?

Whoops. Meant third formula (second new one I guess).

[Amechra]

For instance at lvl six for an astral monk, they can activate both their feature in two combats per SR, leaving them with two ki for other things in those two combats.

This feels... off, to me.

The thing about the Visage is that, before 11th level, you aren't going to be using it in combat. It's primarily an exploration/social feature, unless your table has added in-combat uses for Intimidation and Insight.

By the time you do get a concrete reason to activate both in a fight, you have enough ki to do it twice per short rest and still have seven ki left over to do other things with.

...

I mean, I agree that infinite ki probably wouldn't break anything (I'll just pencil that in to Perfect Self...), but I don't feel like the Astral Self Monk is the best example to point at. I'd honestly point more towards the Mercy Monk, if I had to pick one of the Tasha's subclasses — between out-of-battle healing and Hands of Death, my 7th level Mercy Monk has felt very ki starved despite having a custom magic item that gives her +2 ki per short rest.

[Tanarii]

I have deliberately not included prof bonus because I don't want to favour later levels that I don't think really need a bump.
4) Ki = level + 2 up to 3rd, level + 1 for 4-6, and level for 7+

I don't think this is necessary at low levels, I prefer #1. Monks are one of the better classes in Tier 1 & 2. But it addresses your point.

[CMCC]

You don’t need more ki. You need more abilities that don’t require ki or stack on other abilities that do.

[strangebloke]

You don’t need more ki. You need more abilities that don’t require ki or stack on other abilities that do.

From what I've seen of monks at high level, they don't really have a problem with running out of ki provided that you give out short rests regularly. At eighth level you can use a ki point every round of combat for eight rounds, which is frankly more combat than you're likely to see between short rests. And because of how 5e combat tends to play out (early rounds are much more impactful) its often completely worth bursting 3-4 at the start of a combat and then leaning back on your decent-if-not-great baseline after the match. Certainly helps a lot that everything monks has besides damage scales so well.

Some subclasses provide efficient options for ki (shadow monk spells are crazy efficient) some provide amazing burst (4e). Generally the efficient options are much better early on whereas the burst is better later on, but the key (heh) to understanding ki is to realize that monks really don't need the options from their subclass to shine.

Ultimately I think you're underestimating how much 3-5 extra ki buys you.

Personally I'm in favor of this. It probably turns monks into one of the most powerful classes in t1 and t2 but I think I'm fine with that, they can afford to be a bit better particularly in t1

[animewatcha]

Level +Wis and Regen 1 every other turn? Allows for bursts in short times when needed and you can play a bit defensive if need be till you can set up for next round of blow (assuming you are darting in and out).

[Hytheter]

Personally I like +Wis. It gives a nice bump at early level when it's needed most but doesn't overly impact the pool at higher levels.


Careful making patient defense free. That would be a very potent dip for anyone looking to increase their survivability and mitigation.

If that and step of the wind are going to be free they should at least come with the same caveats as Unarmoured Defense so you can't just stick them on a fighter with plate and shield.

[MaxWilson]

Personally I like +Wis. It gives a nice bump at early level when it's needed most but doesn't overly impact the pool at higher levels.

At high levels, Wis is likely to be +5 (can theoretically go as high as +10 via DMG rewards) while prof is +6. Not much difference really, unless you're only dipping monk and leaving Wis at 13ish, and who does that?

[Kane0]

Level + Wis, on the assumption that you're going to spend it on more than just Stunning.

[Hytheter]

At high levels, Wis is likely to be +5 (can theoretically go as high as +10 via DMG rewards) while prof is +6. Not much difference really, unless you're only dipping monk and leaving Wis at 13ish, and who does that?

The more important bit is the increased starting point (assuming 16wis which I think is fair). Sure, it's only 1 point but when you'd otherwise only have two that's a significant bump. Proficiency also makes the class more dippable; at least if it's wis based they'll need to invest in that stat.

[Hael]

This feels... off, to me.

The thing about the Visage is that, before 11th level, you aren't going to be using it in combat. It's primarily an exploration/social feature, unless your table has added in-combat uses for Intimidation and Insight.
.

Which begs the question why it is given to a monk at 6th lvl or why it costs KI at all. And the devilsight like feature seems to be intended to have some combat utility, but I agree you can't really use it till high levels.

Another example is the sunsoul, where you get a burning hand like feature at lvl 6. If you upcast it to make it third lvl, you can use all your ki to cast it once per fight per SR. So this is like the warlock using both his 3rd lvl spell slots at 6th lvl. The difference, from a resource management point of view, is the warlock has a considerable amount of resources locked into other features that are free to use.. In the form of eldritch blast, pact benefits and invocations. Almost everything the monk gets, is tied to the same resource.

[Mastikator]

Level + Wis, on the assumption that you're going to spend it on more than just Stunning.

Gotta spend it on flurry of blows for extra stun opportunities.

[stoutstien]

This feels... off, to me.

The thing about the Visage is that, before 11th level, you aren't going to be using it in combat. It's primarily an exploration/social feature, unless your table has added in-combat uses for Intimidation and Insight.

By the time you do get a concrete reason to activate both in a fight, you have enough ki to do it twice per short rest and still have seven ki left over to do other things with.

...

I mean, I agree that infinite ki probably wouldn't break anything (I'll just pencil that in to Perfect Self...), but I don't feel like the Astral Self Monk is the best example to point at. I'd honestly point more towards the Mercy Monk, if I had to pick one of the Tasha's subclasses — between out-of-battle healing and Hands of Death, my 7th level Mercy Monk has felt very ki starved despite having a custom magic item that gives her +2 ki per short rest.

Funny. I feel mercy is one of the better subclasses at not eating ki too quickly. Their core features get better with ability increases and eventually even get cheaper at 11. If you are trying to heal and deal increased damage at the same time I would hope it would feel like you are burning the candle at both ends. Well until lv 11 when they can do both in a single bonus action for 1ki.

[Bobthewizard]

Careful making patient defense free. That would be a very potent dip for anyone looking to increase their survivability and mitigation.

I was debating Patient Defense anyway. My players don't tend to multi class much since we start at level 1 or 2, but I might take that out. They'll be happy enough with the extra Ki and the free Step of the Wind. Thanks.

[stoutstien]

I was debating Patient Defense anyway. My players don't tend to multi class much since we start at level 1 or 2, but I might take that out. They'll be happy enough with the extra Ki and the free Step of the Wind. Thanks.

I've played around with adding in increasing free uses per day of each option to give them some breathing room without just buffing SS. It works but it is also more complex than most are willing to deal with. I settled on one free use of each at 2, two at 5, and 3 at 10.

[Rukelnikov]

I think Level + Wis has the side effect of making Monk a more decent dip, and that's good, Monk is one of the hardest classes to dip into (which I guess makes sense, and may even be intended since in previous editions you were not allowed to even MC freely out of Monk)

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think Level + Wis has the side effect of making Monk a more decent dip, and that's good, Monk is one of the hardest classes to dip into (which I guess makes sense, and may even be intended since in previous editions you were not allowed to even MC freely out of Monk)

To be fair, Paladins were even more restrictive to multiclass in and out of in 3.5E, and now they're super easy and a downright common (Charisma) dip. So that justification doesn't exactly hold any water these days.

[Amechra]

Funny. I feel mercy is one of the better subclasses at not eating ki too quickly. Their core features get better with ability increases and eventually even get cheaper at 11. If you are trying to heal and deal increased damage at the same time I would hope it would feel like you are burning the candle at both ends. Well until lv 11 when they can do both in a single bonus action for 1ki.

I'm just reporting my personal experience with the subclass — then again, I'm also very aggressive when it comes to spending ki. The ki situation is going to get a lot better at 11th, but that's 4 levels away.

[Rukelnikov]

To be fair, Paladins were even more restrictive to multiclass in and out of in 3.5E, and now they're super easy and a downright common (Charisma) dip. So that justification doesn't exactly hold any water these days.

I thought they had the same restrictions (though Paladins could get an attonement spell to keep going Paladin). But nevertheless, 5e doesn't have that kind of restrictions so I think helping multiclassing into monk is a good benefit.

[Sandeman]

Ki = 2 x Lvl
Because every single little thing a monk does costs Ki and they normally have so little of it.

[Segev]

I still think the solution isn't to increase the ki, but to decrease the cost of various ki-using abilities. Either make them free (the easiest, but not necessarily best or most interesting solution), or implement what I call "ki flow" as a cost.

Abilities that require "ki flow" can be used without cost if you have more than 0 ki available. If you have not spent ki by the end of a turn in which you have used any abilities which require ki flow, you lose 1 ki point. You can use any number of ki flow abilities in the same turn, and spend no more than 1 ki point during that turn. If you spend 1 or more ki in a turn when you use a ki flow ability, you spend no additional ki for the ki flow ability or abilities you use in that turn.

I suggest that Step of the Wind and Patient Defense be ki flow abilities. I don't think Flurry of Blows should be a ki flow feature, but allowing Step of the Wind or Patient Defense to be activated "for free" in rounds you use Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike (or both) is a good thing, while keeping them from being "always on" the way Cunning Action is.

Several subclass abilities could be reduced in cost, made free, or made into ki flow, as well. Four-Elements Monk is a big contender, here. (It also is one that would be best modified, I think, by simply coming up with a lot more options for them to choose from, obsoleting some of the ones that are just plain badly priced for what they do.)

[Keravath]

The difference with proficiency bonus scaling is that it scales with character level not class level. A character with 2 levels of monk at level 20 would have the same ki as a level 20 pure monk if ki scaled by proficiency bonus and not class level.

As for how much ki a monk should have - I find that hard to say. In a party I DM for at about level 6, the monk stands the best chance of trivializing fights since they can stun a strong opponent, the rest of the party focus attacks them with advantage due to stun and they go down quickly. There have been several fights that were made exceptionally easy by the monk landing a stun. With typical monster con saves in mid tier 2 - even if proficient - the target will fail the save 40%-60% of the time - so depending a bit on luck the monk is spending typically 2 or so ki points on average to stun a primary target.

This effect impacts fights so significantly that I am not sure how much more ki I would want the monk to have. :)

However, if I was going to vote for an improvement it would be something like monk level + (wis-2). I think +5 extra ki would be too much if they had 20 wis ... this would give monks with a starting 16 an extra ki that they could increase a bit by boosting wis. Considering this is a short rest resource a few extra goes a long way.

[Keravath]

I still think the solution isn't to increase the ki, but to decrease the cost of various ki-using abilities. Either make them free (the easiest, but not necessarily best or most interesting solution), or implement what I call "ki flow" as a cost.

Abilities that require "ki flow" can be used without cost if you have more than 0 ki available. If you have not spent ki by the end of a turn in which you have used any abilities which require ki flow, you lose 1 ki point. You can use any number of ki flow abilities in the same turn, and spend no more than 1 ki point during that turn. If you spend 1 or more ki in a turn when you use a ki flow ability, you spend no additional ki for the ki flow ability or abilities you use in that turn.

I suggest that Step of the Wind and Patient Defense be ki flow abilities. I don't think Flurry of Blows should be a ki flow feature, but allowing Step of the Wind or Patient Defense to be activated "for free" in rounds you use Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike (or both) is a good thing, while keeping them from being "always on" the way Cunning Action is.

Several subclass abilities could be reduced in cost, made free, or made into ki flow, as well. Four-Elements Monk is a big contender, here. (It also is one that would be best modified, I think, by simply coming up with a lot more options for them to choose from, obsoleting some of the ones that are just plain badly priced for what they do.)

I'm not sure I understand. Currently both Step of the Wind and Patient Defense require both 1 ki and the use of a bonus action. Flurry of blows also requires the character to use their bonus action to make a martial arts attack and enables an extra one for the expenditure of 1 ki.

So it sounds as if you are proposing that the extra abilities not only cost no extra ki, they also don't cost a bonus action - otherwise you couldn't use them on the same turn as a flurry of blows.

I think it would be a bit unbalanced to let a monk make 4 attacks and then dodge or dash (for free, costing neither ki or a bonus action). My monk character with 55' of movement and the mobile feat would probably love to be able to move 110' every turn they spend a ki on either stun or flurry of blows or anything else - or dodge as well as attack 3 or 4 times - but I think it wouldn't be very balanced.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm not sure I understand. Currently both Step of the Wind and Patient Defense require both 1 ki and the use of a bonus action. Flurry of blows also requires the character to use their bonus action to make a martial arts attack and enables an extra one for the expenditure of 1 ki.

So it sounds as if you are proposing that the extra abilities not only cost no extra ki, they also don't cost a bonus action - otherwise you couldn't use them on the same turn as a flurry of blows.

I think it would be a bit unbalanced to let a monk make 4 attacks and then dodge or dash (for free, costing neither ki or a bonus action). My monk character with 55' of movement and the mobile feat would probably love to be able to move 110' every turn they spend a ki on either stun or flurry of blows or anything else - or dodge as well as attack 3 or 4 times - but I think it wouldn't be very balanced.

Maybe pull a Bard and only let you use Step of the Wind/Patient Defense/Flurry of Blows for free only after 5th level? That's way too deep for a dip, and represents an evolution in skill.

[Eric Diaz]

Just off the top of my head, maybe levelx2 and stunning strike costs 2 ki?

Or level +wis and stunning strike costs 2 ki if you manage to stun, only 1 ki if the target saves?

(I have no practical experience with monks, just an idea)

[PhantomSoul]

Just off the top of my head, maybe levelx2 and stunning strike costs 2 ki?

Or level +wis and stunning strike costs 2 ki if you manage to stun, only 1 ki if the target saves?

Stunning Strike at 2 ki just fits, but setting that aside...

Or you decide to use Stunning Strike (and expend the one ki) before making the Attack Roll.

[Amnestic]

I didn't change the cost of them for my houserules but did change it so that if you PD/SotW then you also get a martial arts attack with the same bonus action.

[Segev]

You're right, you couldn't Step of the Wind or Patient Defense in the same round as a Flurry of Blows. So the difference only comes in with more ki-using abilities.

[mr_stibbons]

I didn't change the cost of them for my houserules but did change it so that if you PD/SotW then you also get a martial arts attack with the same bonus action.


How has that gone for you? I think that does a lot to give monks more viable options at low levels, spending Ki and losing your bonus action attack feels so expensive to us Patient Defence or Step of the Wind.

I'm not sure it is a replacement for a more generous Ki formal in general. I think +wis is a better quick fix than +prof. It provides a bit more of a benefit at the lowest levels, and makes monk a bit less abusable as a splash. A 10th level character with 2 levels of monk would get 6 bonus action dodges or flurry attacks while only making the minimum stat requirements. At least making a multi class monk invest in monk stats would in my mind be a bit more fair.

That said, I think the class has issues. Stunning strike is an abusable feature that mask a lot of systemic flaws with the design. A better class would probably reign in stunning strike while providing some combinations of more Ki, more powerful Ki abilities, or more powerful passive bonuses.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure it is a replacement for a more generous Ki formal in general. I think +wis is a better quick fix than +prof. It provides a bit more of a benefit at the lowest levels, and makes monk a bit less abusable as a splash.

Additionally, Prof (+2-6) is a less intuitive number than Wis (+1-5).

[Amnestic]

How has that gone for you? I think that does a lot to give monks more viable options at low levels, spending Ki and losing your bonus action attack feels so expensive to us Patient Defence or Step of the Wind.

I wish I could say but no one's actually played a monk with it yet to find out. Hopefully will get there shortly. I am playing a monk without that change in tier 2 and can safely say that I've never even looked at PD/SotW. But I am a shadow monk and shadowstep costs 0 ki if I need to not be adjacent to someone anymore (as long as there's darkness nearby), so that might contribute somewhat.

[Segev]

I wish I could say but no one's actually played a monk with it yet to find out. Hopefully will get there shortly. I am playing a monk without that change in tier 2 and can safely say that I've never even looked at PD/SotW. But I am a shadow monk and shadowstep costs 0 ki if I need to not be adjacent to someone anymore (as long as there's darkness nearby), so that might contribute somewhat.

I used Step of the Wind to dash a few times in monk levels prior to 6. Also playing a shadow monk. Never found need for Patient Defense. SotW may still come up if I ever am in bright light and need to vamoose, but I also tend to work to avoid that problem.

[MaxWilson]

I wish I could say but no one's actually played a monk with it yet to find out. Hopefully will get there shortly. I am playing a monk without that change in tier 2 and can safely say that I've never even looked at PD/SotW. But I am a shadow monk and shadowstep costs 0 ki if I need to not be adjacent to someone anymore (as long as there's darkness nearby), so that might contribute somewhat.

I can't remember the details off the top of my head but I know I've seen monks get good mileage out of Patient Defense, typically in conjunction with Stunning Strike attempts. The idea is that you still get two Stunning Strike attempts on your Attack, and then if the enemy attacks you, they have disadvantage so it's a waste of a turn, sort of, and if they try to move away they either lose an action to Disengage or you get a third Stunning Strike attempt. So Patient Defense lets you occupy space "safely" without giving up that third Stunning Strike attempt, sort of.

[stoutstien]

I'm actually looking for suggestions for light changes to the class because my table that likes to play all identical classes at the same time is going to retry Monk with Tasha options added.
The last time they did Monk really taught me a lesson on not always taking a player option at face value. It was probably the most successful style game this way not using full casters.

[Kane0]

I'm actually looking for suggestions for light changes to the class because my table that likes to play all identical classes at the same time is going to retry Monk with Tasha options added.
The last time they did Monk really taught me a lesson on not always taking a player option at face value. It was probably the most successful style game this way not using full casters.

Ill admit an all monk game sounds like a ton of fun

[Eldariel]

Level+Wis feels pretty good. That would put a level 2 Monk at 5 uses of their abilities each fight meaning they can actually afford to flurry and patient defense a bit. Level 5 Monk would have gas for Stunning Strike and Flurry/Patient Defense/Step of the Wind. Overall, it sounds like it would make Monk more fun to play (and easier to multiclass out of, admittedly, but having to wait almost until Tier 3 to get to use your core functionalities somewhat regularly in combat feels like the worse option).

[Hytheter]

I still think the solution isn't to increase the ki, but to decrease the cost of various ki-using abilities. Either make them free (the easiest, but not necessarily best or most interesting solution), or implement what I call "ki flow" as a cost.


I get where you're going with this. I think a simpler approach would be to use Ki-Fueled Strike as a model and make it simply that you can use them for free if you've already spent Ki.

[Tanarii]

Additionally, Prof (+2-6) is a less intuitive number than Wis (+1-5).
Realistically +2-+5 for +Wis. Almost no-one multiclasses Monk, and if they do it's not with a Wis 13.

[Rukelnikov]

Realistically +2-+5 for +Wis. Almost no-one multiclasses Monk, and if they do it's not with a Wis 13.

I think Level + Wis change would incentive more multiclasses, which is why I think its good.

[stoutstien]

Ill admit an all monk game sounds like a ton of fun

Top three most memorable campaigns that I've ran in 5e. The part I found the most interesting was the three players who decided to pick the worst monk subclasses by the consensus were the most regular all stars of encounters and challenges.

Of course this time around it looks like it's going to be very different because last time the only real healing was through the dwarven fortitude and healer feats. This time I pretty confident there's at least two Mercy monks.

[Tanarii]

I think Level + Wis change would incentive more multiclasses, which is why I think its good.
Personally I view that as a bad thing, but tastes differ and all that. :smallamused:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Personally I view that as a bad thing, but tastes differ and all that. :smallamused:

See, for any other class, I would mind, but Monk is the rare class that's perhaps the least friendly to multiclass. It requires 2 stats at 13 (I know, paladin does as well), and a lot of the stuff just straight up turns off if you wear armor, even if you're proficient. Add to that the fact that you need to advance the class itself, not your other classes, if you ever want to use your unarmed strikes seriously (given he lack of the magic fang spell or similar).

[PhantomSoul]

See, for any other class, I would mind, but Monk is the rare class that's perhaps the least friendly to multiclass. It requires 2 stats at 13 (I know, paladin does as well), and a lot of the stuff just straight up turns off if you wear armor, even if you're proficient. Add to that the fact that you need to advance the class itself, not your other classes, if you ever want to use your unarmed strikes seriously (given he lack of the magic fang spell or similar).

I'm not sure I follow -- I get that Monk being more limited in multiclassing, but I don't see how a feature that pushes you to want to multiclass is a good thing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm not sure I follow -- I get that Monk being more limited in multiclassing, but I don't see how a feature that pushes you to want to multiclass is a good thing.

It's less "pushes you to multiclass" and more "has features that don't feel like they cripple you if you do multiclass."

Again, this is a personal opinion. I see multiclass builds with basically every class under the sun except monks. I'm all for equality in making every class multiclass friendly (to a point).

[MaxWilson]

See, for any other class, I would mind, but Monk is the rare class that's perhaps the least friendly to multiclass. It requires 2 stats at 13 (I know, paladin does as well), and a lot of the stuff just straight up turns off if you wear armor, even if you're proficient.

Not actually all that much. If you wear armor you miss out on extra movement and style unarmed strikes, but if it weren't for the multiclassing stat MADness, stuff like armored GWM Paladin/Monks would be perfectly viable. You wouldn't get a Martial Arts bonus attack but you can still use Patient Defense as a bonus action. But it's too expensive to invest in Str 13 Dex 13 Wis 13 Cha 13 unless you roll a fairly unusual array like 13 13 12 13 14 10.

[strangebloke]

Monks work fine for multiclassing. They work well for druids (especially moon druids. Flurry for 2d6+3 a hit, anyone?) clerics (easy to meet the requirements, no extra attack overlap) fighters (many fighting styles are a huge boon, as are BM maneuvers. Fighters really like having extra movement) and barbarians (rage damage on a reckless flurry? Resistance to damage and patient defense??)

Other multiclasses take more to make them work or runs into BA competition but they're still viable.

But I don't really think someone two-level dipping monk for 3-5 uses of patient defense is much more troublesome than someone dipping two levels of fighter for action surge.

[Amechra]

Monk multiclassing is a little awkward because, unless you're combining them with another class that likes Dex and Wis, you're probably better off wearing armor. And, if you wear armor, the first level of Monk is entirely dead, and the second level boils down to "make two unarmed strikes/dodge/dash/disengage two times per short rest", which is rather marginal. There are ways to make an armored monk work, but it's kinda like building a Dexterity-based Barbarian — you're actively ignoring features for minimal gain.

If you want to see more people dipping Monk, though... just let Rogue/Monks use Sneak Attack with their unarmed strikes. Suddenly, dipping one way or the other is pretty tempting.

EDIT:

especially moon druids. Flurry for 2d6+3 a hit, anyone?

Sadly, this doesn't work. Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows specifically specify that you're making unarmed strikes. So you're still just dealing 1d4+4 with your BA attack(s).

On the flip side, this does mean that dipping into Monk unlocks a pretty consistent offensive boost for Moon Druids — you can be scouting as a Cat or Rat and still bust out those bonus action attacks. It's even better if you go for Way of the Astral Self, since then your Cat form could grow 10ft long spirit arms that attack with wisdom. Which is pretty cool.

[PhantomSoul]

On the flip side, this does mean that dipping into Monk unlocks a pretty consistent offensive boost for Moon Druids — you can be scouting as a Cat or Rat and still bust out those bonus action attacks. It's even better if you go for Way of the Astral Self, since then your Cat form could grow 10ft long spirit arms that attack with wisdom. Which is pretty cool.

And a biggie... the AC boost based (partly) on a stat that doesn't get changed!

[MaxWilson]

On the flip side, this does mean that dipping into Monk unlocks a pretty consistent offensive boost for Moon Druids — you can be scouting as a Cat or Rat and still bust out those bonus action attacks. It's even better if you go for Way of the Astral Self, since then your Cat form could grow 10ft long spirit arms that attack with wisdom. Which is pretty cool.

Or you can even stay pure monk, and play an actual (Dreamlands) cat, from the Cthulhu 5E book. Cat PCs are soooo much fun!

(Even though mechanically they're merely decent, aside from the nine lives thing.)

I would totally play in an all-monk-all-cats party.

https://petersengames.com/the-games-shop/cthulhu-mythos-for-5e/

[Amechra]

As awesome as that sounds... I don't currently have $60 to drop on a book.

[Witty Username]

I have been pondering this set up:
Ki = Level * 3
with long rest recovery

But I don't think that would solve ki issues, so much as be an option for parties allergic to short rests.

[strangebloke]

Sadly, this doesn't work. Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows specifically specify that you're making unarmed strikes. So you're still just dealing 1d4+4 with your BA attack(s).

On the flip side, this does mean that dipping into Monk unlocks a pretty consistent offensive boost for Moon Druids — you can be scouting as a Cat or Rat and still bust out those bonus action attacks. It's even better if you go for Way of the Astral Self, since then your Cat form could grow 10ft long spirit arms that attack with wisdom. Which is pretty cool.

yeah my bad.

I really should be better at this by now.

[Kane0]

I have been pondering this set up:
Ki = Level * 3
with long rest recovery

But I don't think that would solve ki issues, so much as be an option for parties allergic to short rests.

You can use that same method for most if not all short rest resources (wildshape, channel, action surge, pact magic, etc)