Anyone find Dragon reproduction weird? Just me? OK...

[SangoProduction]

So, you know how it's sold that Dragons are essentially solitary creatures... but are easily the among the longest-lived races in the game, with a slow gestation period, and very (relatively) weak young?

That is so entirely counter to a good survival strategy. You don't have both a slow reproduction rate and not put insane amounts of care into them. And that's without even discussing that in a monster-filled world, those young... yeah. Well, lets not bring up imagery of Chinese cats.

[False God]

I think you're underestimating just how relative those "relatively weak young" are.

Most dragon babbies are born nearly strong as a full-grown wolf, and tougher than most commoners, with stronger attacks, higher defenses, more health, if lower stats.

And since egg gestation is only about 4-5 months, a dragon could realistically, lay multiple clutches, a year.

[Mechalich]

Dragons lay eggs. For biomechanical reasons there are limits on how big an egg can physically be (dragon eggs actually violate this, but only by a little), this means that in a species with massive adults the young must be born comparatively tiny. Dinosaurs are a nice real-world example of this, with even the largest dinosaur eggs being quite small compared to the size of the adults - the average sauropod was born from an egg smaller than that of an ostrich.

Dragons actually mirror the life-cycle of a fairly large theropod predator quite well. Fast growth, sexual maturity well below full size, and potentially a very large portion of the total lifespan as a massive adult. Everything is exaggerated, of course, because this is fantasy and D&D dragons hit impossible sizes, but the overall model is reasonable enough.


I think you're underestimating just how relative those "relatively weak young" are.

Most dragon babbies are born nearly strong as a full-grown wolf, and tougher than most commoners, with stronger attacks, higher defenses, more health, if lower stats.

Indeed. There is also a fairly significant amount of fossil evidence (https://www.blm.gov/blog/2020-03-20/it%E2%80%99s-settled-jane-was-juvenile-not-another-species) that large predatory dinosaurs occupied different biological niches as they moved through various life stages and in that way a single species fulfilled multiple roles in the ecosystem.

Now there is a more general issue in that your typical D&D world has a nonsensical ecology that is absolutely flooded with a superabundance of deadly predators it could not possibly sustain, but that's a more comprehensive issue not anything dragon specific.

[Emperor Tippy]

Relatively weak young? Wyrmling's an hour out of the egg have ability scores on par with an adult human (well except for the idiot White and the Black, with 6 and 8 Int respectively).

The weakest (the White) is born with 3d12 HD and a Con bonus, full AB, and an AC of 14 (equivalent of wearing a chain shirt with 10 Dex). It also has a fly speed, breath weapon, all good saves, and 6+Int skill points per level.

The Gold Wyrmling? 8d12 with 15 Con, quite good ability scores (+6 Str, +0 Dex, +4 everything else), AC comparable to a fighter in Half Plate, and the ability to take any humanoid or animal form.

A Gold Wyrmling an hour after birth is straight up superior to the vast majority of humans with PC classes. And that ignores its ability to decide to become a toad, or a human, or a raven, etc. to blend in/escape notice. They are also born with up to 11 ranks in skills.

And remember, this all is an hour after birth. In a six year old Dragon is Very Young, a 16 year old is Young, and a 26 year old is Juvenile. When a human is starting their adventuring career at the youngest (16), a Dragon is usually around CR 7.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...

Now there is a more general issue in that your typical D&D world has a nonsensical ecology that is absolutely flooded with a superabundance of deadly predators it could not possibly sustain, but that's a more comprehensive issue not anything dragon specific.

I was going to say, if dragon reproduction bothers you, how on earth do you manage to play without cringing at the far worst ecological contradictions in the other monster entries?

[Saintheart]

Indeed. There is also a fairly significant amount of fossil evidence (https://www.blm.gov/blog/2020-03-20/it%E2%80%99s-settled-jane-was-juvenile-not-another-species) that large predatory dinosaurs occupied different biological niches as they moved through various life stages and in that way a single species fulfilled multiple roles in the ecosystem.

Now there is a more general issue in that your typical D&D world has a nonsensical ecology that is absolutely flooded with a superabundance of deadly predators it could not possibly sustain, but that's a more comprehensive issue not anything dragon specific.

I'm sorry, but the moment dinosaurs and dragons got mentioned together I immediately flashed to the historical text Reign of Fire in which we learn that dragons burned the dinosaurs to ash.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm sorry, but the moment dinosaurs and dragons got mentioned together I immediately flashed to the historical text Reign of Fire in which we learn that dragons burned the dinosaurs to ash.

Ah, another Man of Culture. You've picked out my favorite Matthew McConaughey role (okay, the only role that I've ever liked him in. But seriously, I love that movie to an unreasonable amount).

[daremetoidareyo]

Dragons can reproduce with any living corporeal creature to make half dragons. We don’t need to worry about their gene pool disappearing

[Fizban]

Uh, unless I'm remembering woefully wrong, Draconomicon specifically says that metallic dragons do raise their young with care. And chromatic dragons compensate for abandoning their young by leaving larger clutches, and the hatchlings stick together as a group for some time.

[Shalist]

Dragons can reproduce with any living corporeal creature to make half dragons. We don’t need to worry about their gene pool disappearingThe chart does indicate that they can reproduce with anything:

https://1d4chan.org/images/3/3c/Interspecies_crossbreeding.jpg

However, there is a partial exception:


One possible explanation for these nontraditional dragon types is that under certain circumstances different dragon species can actually interbreed to form intermediary types. Among the chromatics, this seems fairly common, and the results are easily predictable. Among the metallic dragons, however, the results are unpredictable and often bizarre. Crosses between chromatics and metallics are almost unheard of, but when they do occur, the results are even more outlandish. Perhaps thankfully, the vast majority of these interdragon crosses are infertile. (Refer to Chapter 6 for a more detailed discussion of these crosses.)

Italics added. It's kinda interesting; i.e. a 'pink' (white/red) dragon could have 7 or 15 intelligence depending entirely on which parent raised it (nurture > nature), to say nothing of all the possibilities for crazy hybrid breath weapons.

Mostly though I just find it funny how out of everything in the monster manual, the one creature type they can't (reliably) produce fertile offspring with is 'other dragons.'

edit: fixed image

[Ramza00]

So, you know how it's sold that Dragons are essentially solitary creatures... but are easily the among the longest-lived races in the game, with a slow gestation period, and very (relatively) weak young?

That is so entirely counter to a good survival strategy. You don't have both a slow reproduction rate and not put insane amounts of care into them. And that's without even discussing that in a monster-filled world, those young... yeah. Well, lets not bring up imagery of Chinese cats.

Dragons are weird for they are not mammals, not birds, not reptiles, but are there own things that mix and match of the 3.

But also Dragons do not have much evolutionary pressure since they are the top of the food chain so they may not have anything that encouraged 1 Dragon to be better at spreading its genes than another Dragon, to the point this behavior is somehow this behavior is also consistent and internalized in its genes*.

(* I am not describing this last part very well. But things may not be genetic as in genes even if its measurable in some way and is thus phenotype / phenotypical. Like a personality trait, or something caused by nurture may increase or decrease reproductive success but this strategy will not pass down to the children without some form of memory such as a gene, like the child mimicking the parent's behavior and so on. )

------

Speaking of memory, an easy flavor fix is baby dragons have a form of genetic memory even if that memory is not the same as literal human memories.

Like parents dragons pass down a rudimentary skill similar to how some animals have instinct with magical genetic blood. Like this is why sorcerers are so common where you can do a cantrip at birth, but with training and experience you can cast 2nd level spells, then 4th level, so on and so on up the ladder.

Dragons may be familiar with concepts and not a complete blank slate when they emerge with adult mental scores. They are still "youths" but there knowledge may be more similar to a 5 year old which understands some of the basics of gravity a newborn human lacks.

[Saintheart]

Ah, another Man of Culture. You've picked out my favorite Matthew McConaughey role (okay, the only role that I've ever liked him in. But seriously, I love that movie to an unreasonable amount).

I regard it, entirely seriously, as the best Dungeons and Dragons film adaptation Hollywood has ever given us.

I mean, seriously, if you didn't have a smile on your face as Christian Bale and his buddy re-enact Empire Strikes Back as a kids' bedtime story, you have no heart.

[Bohandas]

The chart does indicate that they can reproduce with anything:

https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0352/60/1412328270681.png?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_kqgjeMDd Fk5ZqZlo9ZYNWI98Lg4FX825yY4zj.UreP0-1630035287-0-gqNtZGzNAfujcnBszQXl

However, there is a partial exception:

Italics added. It's kinda interesting; i.e. a 'pink' (white/red) dragon could have 7 or 15 intelligence depending entirely on which parent raised it (nurture > nature), to say nothing of all the possibilities for crazy hybrid breath weapons.

Mostly though I just find it funny how out of everything in the monster manual, the one creature type they can't (reliably) produce fertile offspring with is 'other dragons.'

Your image is broken.

Also, your talk about dragon hybrids made me think of afroakuma's homebrew dragon hybrid template (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610658-Draconic-Hybrids-(3-5))



I regard it, entirely seriously, as the best Dungeons and Dragons film adaptation Hollywood has ever given us.


What about Big Trouble In Little China?

[Mechalich]

Dragons are weird for they are not mammals, not birds, not reptiles, but are there own things that mix and match of the 3.

There are plenty of amniotes that don't fit into the crown group mammals or birds or the various extant crown group 'reptiles' (Reptiles is not accurate terminology since it refers to a paraphyletic mess, crocodiles are more closely related to birds than they are to lizards and no one knows where the turtles fit). D&D dragons, rather, are weird in that they aren't tetrapods at all because they've been given two additional limbs in the form of wings (which they don't really have the proper muscle and skeletal support to use with any strength, never mind the weight ratio issue). Otherwise their features are quite reasonable. A Landwyrm - basically a dragon with the problematic wings removed - is essentially just a large terrestrial archosaur with a funky skull structure. A raushuchian like Postosuchus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postosuchus) or a terrestrial crocodilimorph like Kaprosuchus (https://dinopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kaprosuchus) both represent strikingly 'draconic' animals once the wing issue is resolved.


But also Dragons do not have much evolutionary pressure since they are the top of the food chain so they may not have anything that encouraged 1 Dragon to be better at spreading its genes than another Dragon, to the point this behavior is somehow this behavior is also consistent and internalized in its genes*.

Yeah, that's...not how selective pressures work. Apex predators are in many ways under significantly greater selective pressure than their herbivorous prey because their population sizes are smaller and because relatively small variations in hunt success have a correspondingly massive influence on fitness in contrast to comparative variation in foraging efficiency (because of the inherent boom & bust dynamics of large prey predation). Not that this matters, since the overwhelming majority of fantasy universes operate via special creation and therefore evolution can be assumed to not actually function.


A large quadruped predator with an erect gait that's covered in scales is actually something that's evolved several times on Earth. The troublesome part with dragons is the flying - there's some pretty hard limits on how big of a winged flying creature you can produce in Earth's atmosphere, and the bigger you make your flier, the more spindly it's overall frame needs to be - and the fire-breathing - though if you downgrade that to just 'spits out a superheated fluid for defense' then it's no longer an issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle).

[hamishspence]

(Reptiles is not accurate terminology since it refers to a paraphyletic mess, crocodiles are more closely related to birds than they are to lizards and no one knows where the turtles fit).

While there have been many placings for turtles, they are currently thought to be diapsids (group that contains crocodiles, birds, and lizards) and closer to crocodiles and birds, than to lizards:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle

A 2012 molecular analysis of 248 nuclear genes from 16 vertebrate taxa suggests that turtles are a sister group to birds and crocodiles (the Archosauria). The date of separation of turtles and birds and crocodiles was estimated to be 255 million years ago.[111] Through genomic-scale phylogenetic analysis of ultraconserved elements (UCEs) to investigate the placement of turtles within reptiles, Nicholas Crawford and colleagues (2012) similarly suggest that turtles are a sister group to birds and crocodiles (Archosauria).[112]

The first genome-wide phylogenetic analysis was completed by Zhuo Wang and colleagues (2013). Using the draft genomes of Chelonia mydas and Pelodiscus sinensis, the team again concluded that turtles are likely a sister group of crocodilians and birds (Archosauria). This placement within the diapsids suggests that the turtle lineage once had a diapsid-like skull with temporal openings behind the eye socket, whereas turtles now possess an anapsid-like skull without such openings.[113]

[Bronk]

Dragons are weird for they are not mammals, not birds, not reptiles, but are there own things that mix and match of the 3.

Personally, I think it's weirder that they are vertebrates with 6 limbs. With their tough scales and the ability to breathe fire/acid/etc., if they didn't have bones you could even think they'd be related to bombardier beetles.

[Tzardok]

Personally, I think it's weirder that they are vertebrates with 6 limbs. With their tough scales and the ability to breathe fire/acid/etc., if they didn't have bones you could even think they'd be related to bombardier beetles.

Dragons have two pairs of limbs too few to be beetles.

[Efrate]

As for the flight dragons are called out as having innate magical flyingness somewhere, but their flight is still ex. But again, applying any kind of science, logic, etc. To our elf wizard game is doomed to fail spectacularly.

[Doctor Despair]

As for the flight dragons are called out as having innate magical flyingness somewhere, but their flight is still ex. But again, applying any kind of science, logic, etc. To our elf wizard game is doomed to fail spectacularly.

Maybe the ability to fly is ex, and any race that acquires it can fly, but the dragons' method of acquiring it is innately magical? Just spitballing here for verisimilitude :p

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Draconomicon states that the elemental energies from their draconis fundamentum (the organ behind their breath weapon) gives them the energy that they need to fly, along with their enormously efficient metabolism.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember, [Ex] abilities are [Ex]plicitly called out as being capable of breaking phys[Ex].

[pabelfly]

The chart does indicate that they can reproduce with anything:

https://1d4chan.org/images/3/3c/Interspecies_crossbreeding.jpg

The world of DnD is really just Dragon-hybrid fetish porn with a plot and fighting.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd honestly forgotten how... unsettling some of that chart was. Like the Sprite being compatible with the Centaur. :smalleek:

As a reminder, Sprites include Grig, which are Tiny Fey, to the Centaur's Large Monstrous Humanoid. Hot Skitty on Wailord Vibes indeed.

Or if you're truly going to go the whole mile, the Gargantuan Red Wyrm with the aforementioned Tiny Grig.

[Efrate]

BoEF has rules and items to make that more reasonable...but if you are using BoEF you are generally pretty okay with a LOT of stuff.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yeah, that's...not how selective pressures work. Apex predators are in many ways under significantly greater selective pressure than their herbivorous prey because their population sizes are smaller and because relatively small variations in hunt success have a correspondingly massive influence on fitness in contrast to comparative variation in foraging efficiency (because of the inherent boom & bust dynamics of large prey predation). Not that this matters, since the overwhelming majority of fantasy universes operate via special creation and therefore evolution can be assumed to not actually function.


I would agree with you, if not for one fact: they are not just big flying dinosaurs who spit fire. They are big flying magical dinosaurs who spit fire. And, among other things, that means they can cast Halaster's Fetch and have an infinite supply of meat coming from no less infinite planes of existence. When you have advanced to this point, there is no more selective pressure going on. They're immortal to time, can never starve to death, and are stronger than litterally anything else on the planet. At this point, the only thing that can theoretically kill you is infighting, PC attack, and sickness. And what all these thing pressure to is simply "become stronger and get better Fortitude saves, and you will be able to create offspring forever.". Disease can even be bypassed by some Planar Binding into anything with cleric spellcasting. You should have far more than enough gold so that they won't try to stab you in the back. (When you plan on living 1000 years, the first thing you plan is being able to call something that can heal you of curses and diseases.) There's a reason dragons have been able to evolve up to epic as "natural" creatures: they just bypassed the whole selective process.




Or if you're truly going to go the whole mile, the Gargantuan Red Wyrm with the aforementioned Tiny Grig.

They can breed offsprings if they "do it", that doesn't mean they can "do it". And Polymorph still exists.

[Batcathat]

As a reminder, Sprites include Grig, which are Tiny Fey, to the Centaur's Large Monstrous Humanoid. Hot Skitty on Wailord Vibes indeed.

I misread Tiny Fey as Tina Fey, which made this sentence even weirder (though I'm sure Tina Fey/Centaur fics are very popular in some dark corner of the internet).

[Bronk]

Dragons have two pairs of limbs too few to be beetles.

So true. The dragons have so much to aspire to!

[Ramza00]

Personally, I think it's weirder that they are vertebrates with 6 limbs. With their tough scales and the ability to breathe fire/acid/etc., if they didn't have bones you could even think they'd be related to bombardier beetles.

Oh we are figuring that stuff now genetically in real life. It is the Hox genes a subset of Homeobox, that determine what limb goes where and how many limbs you have. First discovered in the mid 80s and better understanding through the 3 decades since.

Perhaps Dragons are originally genetically engineered by some magical wizard? Or perhaps they were beetles who then breaded with dozens of other animals and their offsprings thus collected traits from insects, mammals, birds, and reptiles?

Maybe Spider-Man was not bitten by a Radioactive Spider? Perhaps it was instead a love bite from a magical Dragon? :smalltongue:

[Bohandas]

I would agree with you, if not for one fact: they are not just big flying dinosaurs who spit fire. They are big flying magical dinosaurs who spit fire. And, among other things, that means they can cast Halaster's Fetch and have an infinite supply of meat coming from no less infinite planes of existence. When you have advanced to this point, there is no more selective pressure going on. They're immortal to time, can never starve to death, and are stronger than litterally anything else on the planet. At this point, the only thing that can theoretically kill you is infighting, PC attack, and sickness. And what all these thing pressure to is simply "become stronger and get better Fortitude saves, and you will be able to create offspring forever.". Disease can even be bypassed by some Planar Binding into anything with cleric spellcasting. You should have far more than enough gold so that they won't try to stab you in the back. (When you plan on living 1000 years, the first thing you plan is being able to call something that can heal you of curses and diseases.) There's a reason dragons have been able to evolve up to epic as "natural" creatures: they just bypassed the whole selective process.

In fact, in most environments they're so far beyond what they need to survive that I'd expect to see them losing adaptations, like those species of cave animals who have lost their eyes because they navigate by other means

[Cygnia]

Been actually flipping thru Draconomicon and such...can D&D dragons suffer from inbreeding (hypothetically)?

[False God]

Been actually flipping thru Draconomicon and such...can D&D dragons suffer from inbreeding (hypothetically)?

Considering that dragons are all hoarders, I think they already do.

Maybe physically no, but mentally....I very strongly question the mental health of all dragons.

[Ramza00]

Yeah, that's...not how selective pressures work. Apex predators are in many ways under significantly greater selective pressure than their herbivorous prey because their population sizes are smaller and because relatively small variations in hunt success have a correspondingly massive influence on fitness in contrast to comparative variation in foraging efficiency (because of the inherent boom & bust dynamics of large prey predation). Not that this matters, since the overwhelming majority of fantasy universes operate via special creation and therefore evolution can be assumed to not actually function.

We are talking about an intelligent species here. How I am using an Apex predator is not how you are using an Apex predator even if we are using the same word.

You are assuming all the mental shortcuts, the “heuristics” of what happens with a non intelligent Apex Predator would apply to an Intelligent Dragon, that the limits of growth would be biological such as the predator prey ratio. I am not assuming that for Dragons are intelligent and also a social species. Perhaps Dragons do not reproduce if they do not feel secure in their hoard. This caused a difference in dragon behavior and reproduction for the dragon feels the need to have that form of security even if survival is not the only thing the dragon is optimizing for. Perhaps dragons like comfort or other sources of joy besides thus surviving. They collect baseball cards, stamps, and gemstones for it sparks pleasure.

As a metaphor perhaps Dragons are facing other pressures in their life that change their behavior, much like humans are delaying reproduction in today’s society (I am talking industrialized countries here.). For example some influences to human behavior change is access to birth control, better medicine (children are more likely to survive to adulthood) and higher need for education to feel secure and middle class in today’s economy. Thus the number of kids per women in the population goes down, and the average age before first kid goes up. This would not use the same population models and mental shortcuts as a non intelligent species, it would be comparing apples and oranges.

We cannot model this type of relationships with a Lion to Gazelle ratio and how there are two curves in a boom and bust fashion. The heuristic, the model, the shortcut to explain the complexity does not track. I am saying traditional evolutionary pressures with how to model things would be different, we need new words and language to identify the most pressing factors, not that evolution would not exist.

But hey evolution may not exist in a world of magic. Genetics and genes may not be the memory device that cause change and stores some fixed essence temporary in a world of flow, it may be societies and spell casting being both the memory device but also a source of change.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah I remember someone wanted a treant that was immune to fire and my go to solution was “just make them a half-gold dragon treant”.

Heck you can have half-dragon oozes!

You could have an entire campaign based on fighting the varied half-dragon spawn of an unusually fecund and sexually adventurous half-red dragon (with the red dragon as the final boss).

I think the designers are ok with tough dragons even from the wyrmlings. That game is called Dungeons and Dragons after all, and at least the “lesser, younger” true full dragon types, and the half-dragon give a tough fight to lower level adventure parties. Otherwise there would be the issue of never encounteri Ng dragons, since most parties don’t get high level enough to face the ancient versions.

[Shalist]

Been actually flipping thru Draconomicon and such...can D&D dragons suffer from inbreeding (hypothetically)?

Yeah, 2nd edition draconomicon has tons of fluff, including 6+ pages about evolution (presented largely as competing theories, fossil records, etc.). Regarding inbreeding:



Reproductive Habits

Long life span has an interesting consequence when it comes to mating behavior. It's quite possible for older dragons to have the opportunity to mate with their own descendants who are separated from them by as many as ten or even more generations. The way in which dragons deal with this matter varies from species to species.

The less intelligent dragons blacks and whites seem to have no taboo against inbreeding, or perhaps no knowledge of its significance. For this reason, blacks and whites often suffer the consequences of inbreeding: numerous infertile eggs and congenital problems (both physical and mental). The more intelligent dragons are aware of the problem of inbreeding, and they solve it in various ways.

Among blues, the suzerain is responsible for ensuring the appropriateness of any pairing. Reds, and others who pick their mates predominately on the basis of status, know the bloodline of their candidates as part of their reputation. Golds, silvers, and bronzes are very logical about the process, and they discuss all such matters during courtship.

There's plenty more about the courtship and child-rearing of each habits of each type. Regarding hoarding though (TL:DR it's 'status seeking' behavior):


While important to various races, many of these ways of acquiring status are highly subjective and open to interpretation. Which bestows more status to a dragon receiving a glowing commendation from one's venerable uncle or receiving a polite but personal greeting from His Resplendence himself? Dominating an entire clan of kobolds, or manipulating a handful of hill giants?

This is where hoard-gathering comes in. The size of a dragon's hoard or, more precisely, its overall value is measurable and not open to interpretation. Either one dragon has a larger hoard than another or he doesn't. For this reason; dragons assign a very high priority to physical wealth when they're concerned about relative status of individuals. (This attitude isn't limited to dragons, of course. A saying among competitive human merchants of Cormyr holds that "Money's always the best way of keeping score.")

Status has value to dragons over and above enhancing their self-esteem (which shouldn’t be underestimated as a motivation). Dragons recognized by their peers as having high status enjoy more opportunities to mate, and are approached more often by lowerstatus individuals for help and advice . . . which further raises their status. (This is true only for the more social species, of course.) Among those dragons that follow the draconic deities Astilabor or Task, the belief is that the higher a dragon's status, the greater their, position in the afterlife.

edit: formatting

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<snip>...So dragons are Star Trek ferengi in giant flying lizard form.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah I remember someone wanted a treant that was immune to fire and my go to solution was “just make them a half-gold dragon treant”.

Heck you can have half-dragon oozes!

You could have an entire campaign based on fighting the varied half-dragon spawn of an unusually fecund and sexually adventurous half-red dragon (with the red dragon as the final boss).

I think the designers are ok with tough dragons even from the wyrmlings. That game is called Dungeons and Dragons after all, and at least the “lesser, younger” true full dragon types, and the half-dragon give a tough fight to lower level adventure parties. Otherwise there would be the issue of never encounteri Ng dragons, since most parties don’t get high level enough to face the ancient versions.

I actually remember an old adventure someone posted where the enemies were all the kids of an Adult Green Dragon. These included Greenspawn, Giant Half-Dragon Crocodiles, villages of kobolds and lizardfolk run by half dragon sorcerers, and other assorted animals it had slept with.

[Jack_Simth]

I'd honestly forgotten how... unsettling some of that chart was. Like the Sprite being compatible with the Centaur. :smalleek:

As a reminder, Sprites include Grig, which are Tiny Fey, to the Centaur's Large Monstrous Humanoid. Hot Skitty on Wailord Vibes indeed.

Or if you're truly going to go the whole mile, the Gargantuan Red Wyrm with the aforementioned Tiny Grig.
Presumably, there's some polymorph involved. Otherwise, such pairings as nymph/nymph, dryad/dryad, nymph/dryad, dryad/nymph, and satyr/satyr have some significant problems.

[ShurikVch]

I have some thematic pictures:

https://i.ibb.co/b6SQXqS/Half-Dragon-Plant.jpg

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/c35c73c4-a700-480a-9afd-75526e3545bf/d6055rw-4bcacf45-7b19-491e-b179-cbcb991b1796.jpg/v1/fill/w_303,h_250,q_70,strp/a_gelatinous_dragon__by_impala_cult95_d6055rw-250t.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ 9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYw ZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OT gyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7Imhl aWdodCI6Ijw9NDgyIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvYzM1YzczYzQtYT cwMC00ODBhLTlhZmQtNzU1MjZlMzU0NWJmXC9kNjA1NXJ3LTRi Y2FjZjQ1LTdiMTktNDkxZS1iMTc5LWNiY2I5OTFiMTc5Ni5qcG ciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NTg0In1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2 aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.gIS1Q2iwwlJrwp9jJW bihlqgozghZl_6Bi5mazh3pnY

https://i.ibb.co/gMbzVKt/Half-Dragon-Living-Construct.jpg

[Xervous]

There was that Dungeon magazine Adventure that has a lake populated by half dragon crocodiles. I distinctly remember Nodwick cracking a joke at it, the crew rolling up on the dragon “Mama croc says you’re overdue on child support.”

[Batcathat]

There was that Dungeon magazine Adventure that has a lake populated by half dragon crocodiles. I distinctly remember Nodwick cracking a joke at it, the crew rolling up on the dragon “Mama croc says you’re overdue on child support.”

Out of all the creatures that dragons apparently mate with, crocodiles seem among the least weird. (Then again, I suppose it's the equivalent of a human mating with a tiny vaugly-human looking creature, so I guess it's still pretty odd... :smallconfused: )

[Kuulvheysoon]

Out of all the creatures that dragons apparently mate with, crocodiles seem among the least weird. (Then again, I suppose it's the equivalent of a human mating with a tiny vaugly-human looking creature, so I guess it's still pretty odd... :smallconfused: )

So... a monkey or a chimpanzee?

To be honest, the number of different (non-sentient) half dragons is the most disturbing part of the entire Dragon reproduction thing to me. Like, I can absolutely understand having sex with non-dragons, especially if you're one of the species that have master shapeshifting (or you have that feat from Dragons of Eberron); at that point what's inside your head is as important as what you've got going on outside.

But non-sentients is just... really gross? I dunno, am I being crazy here?

[Asmotherion]

My take on this is

A) The young dragons are not weak. The average humanoid would be a lv1 commoner. That makes them stronger than average.

B) The mother and sometimes father cares for the young dragons until they are young adults. At this point they are strong monsters on their own.

[Xervous]

So... a monkey or a chimpanzee?

To be honest, the number of different (non-sentient) half dragons is the most disturbing part of the entire Dragon reproduction thing to me. Like, I can absolutely understand having sex with non-dragons, especially if you're one of the species that have master shapeshifting (or you have that feat from Dragons of Eberron); at that point what's inside your head is as important as what you've got going on outside.

But non-sentients is just... really gross? I dunno, am I being crazy here?

Dragon MO can easily overlap with mad scientist. It’s best not to dwell on this stuff for too long unless you’re an entertainer paid by the word

[pabelfly]

So... a monkey or a chimpanzee?

To be honest, the number of different (non-sentient) half dragons is the most disturbing part of the entire Dragon reproduction thing to me. Like, I can absolutely understand having sex with non-dragons, especially if you're one of the species that have master shapeshifting (or you have that feat from Dragons of Eberron); at that point what's inside your head is as important as what you've got going on outside.

But non-sentients is just... really gross? I dunno, am I being crazy here?

I think that's a pretty reasonable take.

[Thurbane]

One reason Wyrmlings might appear weak (and I agree with most others, that they aren't especially weak) is the weird and wonderful ecosystem that exists in most D&D settings.

The sheer number of monster splats creates this oddball ecology where, layered on top of the assumed "normal" ecology of animals, plants and sentient races, it feels like there is some magically powered predator lurking behind every rock and shrub.

I know that IRL the ecosystem of our own world has a staggering number of species, but the vast majority don't have the weird and varied attack forms and defences that D&D beasties do. Going by CR alone, there's a lot of creatures in every book that would make short work of even a Gold Wyrmling.

Not that there necessarily are the sheer number of these kind of dangerous creatures in a game world, but when flipping through monster books, it can be easy to forget that most of these things are supposed to be pretty rare, compared to humans, eagles, dogs etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that with all the weird "monsters" that exist in D&D, it can be hard to have a normal-ish ecosystem, and it sometimes feel like super-powered predators are more in abundance than what they might actually be in a given world.

[Shalist]

Regarding all the half-dragon hybrids, I assume that turkey basters are still a thing that exist in fantasy worlds. I mean, the availability of specific mid- and high- level magic is far from a given; i.e. dragons often don't bother developing their magic until they're older, and many are unable to take alternate forms or polymorph (only gold/silver/bronze have natural alternate forms). An excerpt (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020227a)of an Ancient green that wants to manipulate mingle with people more:


Lack of sufficient magic is the only real weakness she seems to be working at rectifying; however, her paranoia makes finding wizards mighty enough to develop a roster of powerful unique spells for her, and to enable her to shift freely between dragon-form and human shape, a very difficult task indeed. She's recently come to the conclusion that the only way to find such a being may be to raise one herself -- to "adopt" a magically-gifted and good-aligned child as a mysterious, helpful benefactor, helping the human to grow into a mage of power who regards Claugiyliamatar as a friend whom he owes a tremendous debt. Yet even this long, exacting process is fraught with perils, and Old Gnawbone is proceeding very cautiously, scrying until she can find a handful of candidates. If one turns on her, is slain, or otherwise "goes bad," she'll then have others without all her time entirely wasted . . . and if all of them come to trust her and to master magic, she'll have more wizards at her beck and call than most emperors in the Realms ever manage!




I guess what I'm saying is that with all the weird "monsters" that exist in D&D, it can be hard to have a normal-ish ecosystem, and it sometimes feel like super-powered predators are more in abundance than what they might actually be in a given world.

Link (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060501#.YS2N4M9lDo4)
https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggmain/strips/ggmain20060501.jpg

[Thurbane]

To be honest, the number of different (non-sentient) half dragons is the most disturbing part of the entire Dragon reproduction thing to me. Like, I can absolutely understand having sex with non-dragons, especially if you're one of the species that have master shapeshifting (or you have that feat from Dragons of Eberron); at that point what's inside your head is as important as what you've got going on outside.

What I find really odd is that Fiends (and Celestials, but that is less surprising) seem to have more scruples around their breeding habits than Dragons do:


"Half-fiend" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).


"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

[Bohandas]

I've interpreted dragons as being like bees, with half-dragons filling thenrole of the worker bees

[Particle_Man]

What I find really odd is that Fiends (and Celestials, but that is less surprising) seem to have more scruples around their breeding habits than Dragons do:

I am not sure that Fiends have fewer scruples, just that if they mate with, say, an animal or vermin, no children will be born of the union.

[Kuulvheysoon]

What's weird is that if the Animal or Vermin is awoken, then they will produce viable half-fiend offspring.

So at least dragons are consistent?

[Bohandas]

I am not sure that Fiends have fewer scruples, just that if they mate with, say, an animal or vermin, no children will be born of the union.

This is my interpretation as well

[Particle_Man]

What's weird is that if the Animal or Vermin is awoken, then they will produce viable half-fiend offspring.

So at least dragons are consistent?

Maybe it is a “blend with the soul” thing where you need to have an alignment that is other than “default animal/vermin/I like eating food but not becoming food” neutral in order to produce a child with an outsider?

[DigoDragon]

...So dragons are Star Trek ferengi in giant flying lizard form.

Well now I want to write the dragon rules of acquisition.


On the weirder half-dragon critters, like plants and oozes, I have always felt that more often than through breeding, dragons use some fairly dark magics to make those things in their lairs.

Cause dragons as mad scientists has always sounded like a fun premise to me.

[Telonius]

Maybe the existence of half-dragons is part of the survival strategy? They've already got Kobold allies who (more or less) worship them as gods. Having half-dragon and draconic creatures in the area might give a tiny bit of extra security. The hero might hesitate to take on a quest that involved killing their own great-great-grandpa or grandma.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well now I want to write the dragon rules of acquisition.


On the weirder half-dragon critters, like plants and oozes, I have always felt that more often than through breeding, dragons use some fairly dark magics to make those things in their lairs.

Cause dragons as mad scientists has always sounded like a fun premise to me.

Princess flower AKA Blade : https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24561838&postcount=85

[Grim Portent]

Well now I want to write the dragon rules of acquisition.


On the weirder half-dragon critters, like plants and oozes, I have always felt that more often than through breeding, dragons use some fairly dark magics to make those things in their lairs.

Cause dragons as mad scientists has always sounded like a fun premise to me.

For oozes I generally assume that an ooze stumbled upon the dragon equivalent of a crusty sock under the mattress or a pile of used tissues and merged with the dragons... essence to become a half-dragon.

Half-dragon plants happen when the dragon tips out it's... essence infused stuff and it winds up seeping into the local water supply.

Only when I feel silly of course. Otherwise half-dragons are more likely to be the result of dark and perverse deeds, both magical and physical.

[Batcathat]

For oozes I generally assume that an ooze stumbled upon the dragon equivalent of a crusty sock under the mattress or a pile of used tissues and merged with the dragons... essence to become a half-dragon.

Half-dragon plants happen when the dragon tips out it's... essence infused stuff and it winds up seeping into the local water supply.

Only when I feel silly of course. Otherwise half-dragons are more likely to be the result of dark and perverse deeds, both magical and physical.

Great, now I can't stop thinking about a world where human... essence worked the same way. It's rather disgusting. :smalltongue:

[Telonius]

Well now I want to write the dragon rules of acquisition.


I'm pretty sure it's one of the few religious texts of the Church of Olidammara (this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?445953-My-pantheon-s-take-on-Olidammara), specifically).

[liquidformat]

Dragons can reproduce with any living corporeal creature to make half dragons. We don’t need to worry about their gene pool disappearing

Did anyone else assume this was going to be a discussion that a race that reproduces based on eggs which presumably means the males fertilize the egges rather than perform intercourse are able to mate and reproduce with just about anything. That has always really confused me.

Personally, I think it's weirder that they are vertebrates with 6 limbs. With their tough scales and the ability to breathe fire/acid/etc., if they didn't have bones you could even think they'd be related to bombardier beetles.
You should checkout the book The charm of Soul Pets, this is exactly what dragons are in there.

[Grim Portent]

Did anyone else assume this was going to be a discussion that a race that reproduces based on eggs which presumably means the males fertilize the egges rather than perform intercourse are able to mate and reproduce with just about anything. That has always really confused me.

Dragons aren't external fertilisers, they mate the old fashioned* way and the female lays fertilised eggs after a while. Like birds and reptiles, as opposed to the female laying infertile eggs that are permeable and which the male proceeds to ejaculate on to fertilise them like amphibians and some fish.

From a biological standpoint there's not really a difference between a human egg cell and a lizard egg cell in the initial steps. Both leave the ovaries, travelling towards the reproductive tract, get fertilised internally, usually by relatively conventional gential based sex, the difference is that the human embryo implants into the wall of the uterus, while the lizard embryo gets bulked up with yolk and has a calcified shell secreted around it before being plopped out to develop without weighing down the mother.


*Technically the new fangled way, internal fertilization seems to be younger than the external version.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Did anyone else assume this was going to be a discussion that a race that reproduces based on eggs which presumably means the males fertilize the egges rather than perform intercourse are able to mate and reproduce with just about anything. That has always really confused me.


Oviparous species don't always fertilize the eggs outside of the female (that's more a fish and invertebrate thing) . I know at least that chicken (and hence‚ probably all birds and dinosaurs) do have intercourse and the hen creates the egg with the fertilized ovum inside of herself before laying them.

[Cygnia]

Anyone ever consider making dragons be marsupials?

[daremetoidareyo]

If dragons externally fertilized, theyde need a place sealed off from pollen

[Batcathat]

Anyone ever consider making dragons be marsupials?

Clearly books and movies had it wrong all along, you don't ride on top of the dragon.

[Thurbane]

What's weird is that if the Animal or Vermin is awoken, then they will produce viable half-fiend offspring.

So at least dragons are consistent?

Well, technically Awakened animals. etc. become Magical Beasts, so they have undergone somewhat of a drastic change to become Awakened. It could be rationalised that way, I guess.

Two things that interest me about Half-fiends and Half-celestials: 1. The req is Int 4+, so the least intelligent Humans etc. are ineligible; and 2. There is an alignment req, so that Evil Outsiders can't breed with Good creatures, and vice-versa.


I am not sure that Fiends have fewer scruples, just that if they mate with, say, an animal or vermin, no children will be born of the union.

That could be true.

I initially noticed the Half-fiend reqs after I'd made an encounter based on a piece of fantasy art, where the party fought a Half-fiend Dire Ape. I just DM handwaved it, because I wasn't going to write up another stat block because of what I consider a pretty arbitrary req on the template.

[pabelfly]

Anyone ever consider making dragons be marsupials?

The lore surrounding dragons nearly always has them be reptilian. You can make your dragons however you want but is anyone else going to recognize it as a dragon?

[goodpeople25]

Well, technically Awakened animals. etc. become Magical Beasts, so they have undergone somewhat of a drastic change to become Awakened. It could be rationalised that way, I guess.

Two things that interest me about Half-fiends and Half-celestials: 1. The req is Int 4+, so the least intelligent Humans etc. are ineligible; and 2. There is an alignment req, so that Evil Outsiders can't breed with Good creatures, and vice-versa.



That could be true.

I initially noticed the Half-fiend reqs after I'd made an encounter based on a piece of fantasy art, where the party fought a Half-fiend Dire Ape. I just DM handwaved it, because I wasn't going to write up another stat block because of what I consider a pretty arbitrary req on the template.
So the base creature refers to the parent not the child? Either way raises it's own questions for me, in particular the alignment req for the parent seems like it could get heavily problematic.

[SangoProduction]

So the base creature refers to the parent not the child? Either way raises it's own questions for me, in particular the alignment req for the parent seems like it could get heavily problematic.

A good creature corrupted to evil during pregnancy... Seems like there would be problems.

[Particle_Man]

Well it is a MM entry so it seems to apply to the default alignment of the monster type, not of individuals. So you don’t have any half-celestial drow or half-fiend high elves, even if there are individual good drow and individual evil high elves.

[Sebastian]

Yeah, that's...not how selective pressures work. Apex predators are in many ways under significantly greater selective pressure than their herbivorous prey because their population sizes are smaller and because relatively small variations in hunt success have a correspondingly massive influence on fitness in contrast to comparative variation in foraging efficiency (because of the inherent boom & bust dynamics of large prey predation). Not that this matters, since the overwhelming majority of fantasy universes operate via special creation and therefore evolution can be assumed to not actually function.

It is also worth mentioning that dragons don't actually need to eat animals. I could remember wrong but I think dragons can eat basically anyhing if they really need to, included, but not limited to, rocks, precious metals and gemstones.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I know that IRL the ecosystem of our own world has a staggering number of species, but the vast majority don't have the weird and varied attack forms and defences that D&D beasties do. Going by CR alone, there's a lot of creatures in every book that would make short work of even a Gold Wyrmling.


Reading this and thinking about this a little bit, I think dragons probably do more than a bit of 'terraforming' around their lairs and try and clear an area out of potential threats if they know they'll have hatchlings soon.

[King of Nowhere]

What I actually find weird about dragon reproduction is that the whole world is not populated just by them, on account of dragons being vastly superior to anything else.
an adult dragon is basically invincible whenever a high level adventuring party is not concerned, can eat rocks and does not require anything, is virtually immune to disease and wheather effects, and can lay dozens of eggs every year. the whole world should be covered in dragons.
As a scientific minded individual, i found the draconomicon to be absolutely cringeworthy wherever it tried to give any kind of fluff or descriptions. "dragons are structured like birds, except they have bigger muscles, bigger chests, bigger bones, additional organs". If everything is bigger, how the hell does it actually fit inside the dragon??? do they have extradimensional storage space inside their body???

Personally, I took inspiration from discworld and in my campaign dragons feed on natural magic, which is what enables them to rape the laws of physics. And it is what controls their population, because they need a lot of magic. Actually, I use that justification for everything that violates the square/cube law

[hamishspence]

Well it is a MM entry so it seems to apply to the default alignment of the monster type, not of individuals. So you don’t have any half-celestial drow or half-fiend high elves, even if there are individual good drow and individual evil high elves.

Given that Sarya Dlardrageth from Lords of Darkness is a half-fiend high elf, that would suggest that "default alignment" isn't necessarily going to exclude the possibility of such beings existing.

I would suggest that it only applies to beings that are "Always Good" or "Always Evil".

Even then, if the "non-template" parent has changed alignment, it might be justifiable.

A renegade celestial hybridising with a fiend, for example.

[Xervous]

A renegade celestial hybridising with a fiend, for example.

I’m rather certain there’s an adventure for this with the premise of ‘a wizard did it.’

[Particle_Man]

Maybe it depends on whether the template is acquired (as through a prestige class or spell or something) or inherited (as in you literally being born that way). Does a fetus have a default alignment? If so is it the same as the MM entry or is it “animal likes food” neutral? But alignment is a can of worms we thankfully don’t need to open for half-dragons.

[ShurikVch]

A renegade celestial hybridising with a fiend, for example.
Note: both Concordant Killer (Monster Manual IV) and Infernal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) are "children of Heaven and Hell" (or whatever other upper/lower planes)

[Maat Mons]

I always imagined that dragons defended their territories against other dragons, in spite of not having any physical needs that would actually necessitate having a territory. I mean, they don't have any physical need for a giant pile of gold and gems, but they accumulate and defend that. Why would land be any different? It all comes down to a display of power and prestige. It doesn't matter that you have no use for it. What matters is that other people want it, so if you have a lot of it, it proves how strong and smart you are for being able to keep anyone else from being able to take it from you.

Other than dragons being naturally greedy and jealous, I imagine the size of their hoards and territories factors into mate selection. After all, any weak offspring are pretty much doomed to be killed by rival dragons. It's that whole territory thing again. Every spot of land is claimed by some dragon or another. So there's nowhere a young dragon can go where he won't be attacked by older dragons for trespassing. Only the fittest young have any chance of surviving in this dragon-eat-dragon world. So you need to pick only the strongest mates, the ones with the biggest hoards and the most extensive territories. But in order to have any chance of mating with them, you need a big hoard and an extensive territory yourself. Which means you've got fight other dragons for territory, and kill any young whelps who would undermine your claim on your lands by daring to exist inside of its borders.

[Efrate]

It's pretty common for younger dragons to be in be places possibly for that reason, it's I'm a lot of APs. Ruins of whatever, dragon there. Not a great dragon, not with a lot of wealth, bit a dragon when there are none nearby. Most dragons are also smart enough I imagine not to create a bunch of competition so they breed with other dragons infrequently at best, usually as they get quite old to carry on their line or some such. Physical desires are met by whatever is available at the time, likely more with short lived races.

I also imagine evil dragons are less scrupulous with whatever they find, hence the evil. Why you do not see as many half gold dragon bears vs. Half red and the like. Plus evil dragons half or not make better enemies for the Pcs.