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Leliel
2007-11-15, 07:27 PM
In my next planar campaign, I am thinking about one of the plot lines being that a celestial version of the conflict that the demons and devils have been fighting for, well, the better part of eternity has started. Now, before you say "Good Natures Prevent War" and stuff like that, let me point out that even in RAW, there are examples of two good forces fighting each other (elves and dwarfs).


How would one set about making this no-doubt tragic conflict? What started it? Who are the factions? How much of it was caused by evil manipulation? What is the purpose of this manipulation (other than weakening the forces of good)? How would one make the "evil manipulator" seem somewhat sympathetic at all?

About the factions, I do not want a simple law/chaos divide, which I think there is enough of in the actual Blood War. And I've already decided that this should be a conflict along the lines of the Cold War, with small-and-bitter wars actually being proxy to the larger conflict.

MCerberus
2007-11-15, 07:33 PM
I may suggest that a great evil force presented itself, and the Angles rushed in to fight it while the Archons took some more time to research it. The fight goes horribly bad and a high ranking good god bites it. The two sides blame each other for not doing what they should have done to prevent it and eventually think that the methods the other side use make it possible for evil to exist. In order for good to prevail they must eliminate the other side first.

Leliel
2007-11-15, 08:13 PM
Come on, it's a good idea, isn't it?

The_Snark
2007-11-15, 08:22 PM
Now, before you say "Good Natures Prevent War" and stuff like that, let me point out that even in RAW, there are examples of two good forces fighting each other (elves and dwarfs).

Well... firstly, I'm not sure how much actual violent conflict there is between elves and dwarves; it probably depends on the setting. And in any case, any conflicts there are the result of flaws; they're only elven/dwarven, after all. Angels, on the other hand, aren't only human at all, so it's tricky.

You could do it, but I think each side would have to be denying that the other was good at all. I can definitely see two groups of inflexible Archons clashing violently, in the belief that the other group is insidiously trying to corrupt the heavens. They'd need pretty strong evidence, though, such as the word of a deity.

Possibly, this deity is the one who has actually fallen, or been impersonated. Given that celestials represent the pinnacles of Good, who are supposed to be beyond most mortal flaws (not that they are, but they're considerably closer to it), it's hard to have them get into a war without any evil meddling.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-15, 09:19 PM
It could be that each of them believes themselves to be the true good, and has it's own plans for the direction to take the world in. Hence they start fighting (as each side is interfering in the others works).

Prometheus
2007-11-15, 09:44 PM
I like MCeberus's idea. It deserves attention.

It could also be modeled after a number of other theoretical disputes, as has been seen in some real religions:
-Suppose the collective good has the power to make people good - should sentient beings loss their sense of evil and of free will?
-Is it elitist to value the exceptionally good over the moderately good?
-How should we treat our enemies, the evil, with forgiveness or justice?
-Is there any sacred ceremonial good (a holy day, dietary rules, unborn life etc) that supersede material good (pain and suffering, life etc)?
-Who deserves help first, the good or the helpless?

EDIT: I also like the idea of possibly a few deities getting involved, especially in this kind of setting. Perhaps that could mean apocalyptic results, as a big finale. maybe the competing factions cause different deities to gain or lose power. Definitely there are some neutral or evil deities taking advantage of the action.

Murongo
2007-11-15, 10:26 PM
Ideological conflict between two well-meaning factions happens all the time. It just has to be really good in the case of angels because they're rather infallible. Here's a few ideas

1) In one campaign we played it ended up the world was going to come to an end (the end times had started). Some were convinced that the gods wouldn't let all life be destroyed, and they'd make a separate plane for the good and loyal beings to live in. Others believed that that was a hoax and they had to stop the end times to save all the innocent people from the gods.

2) Try a debate like this one:
Mortal life is finite, whereas afterlife is infinite, therefore people's souls should be saved at any physical cost no matter what.
But if you achieve a moral end through immoral goals, you may save the person but you damn yourself.
It's more damning to sit back and watch someone consign themselves to suffer eternally than to martyr your own eternal soul to save them.
That can always spark conflict.

3) You said you didn't want law/chaos, which I agree is silly, unless you have a specific reason like this: Take two gods that angels worship. I don't know what setting you're using so I'll use alignments to represent the gods.

The Situation: A fragmented, plague-ridden, war-torn nation begins to unite under a lawful neutral dictatorship. They bring relief in the form of food, order and shelter. Unfortunately, this sparks a small rebellion of primarily chaotic good people who don't believe in obeying the new dictator, who lives in excessive luxury and practices absolute rule.
The lawful good god says: In the name of pragmatism, this newly reunited nation cannot slip back into war. If this rebellion is successful it will cause far more grief than a little heavy-handed justice.
The chaotic good god says: Live free or die, it doesn't matter if good people die, they die for a cause, and no man should live under tyranny.

Of course one conflict like that wouldn't spark angels to go to war, but if you had several similar instances in a row than maybe things would get agitated enough to spark a few mishaps, which could then escalate.

Neon Knight
2007-11-15, 10:34 PM
An important question is raised:

The BoED says killing an evil outsider is always justified, and always good. Does this mean that killing a good outsider is never justified, and always evil? I'm paraphrasing from memory as I don't have the text available, but I think I got the gist of it.

TimeWizard
2007-11-16, 01:18 PM
A variant of this was used with subtlety and success in Disgaea: Hour of Darkness. The plot: The arch-angel, Seraph Lamington, used a complex plan of string pulling in the nether-relm (a hell substitute) to reveal that the angel Vulcanus had a wicked heart (read:evil), and show that Demons can be good while Angels can be bad. This is a watered down explanation that leaves out many subtle features.

I find the problem people have with conflicts involving Archons is that (with exception of the Hindu faith) everyone has a mono-theistic mindset. Monotheism is about absolutes, goodness, power, truth, evil, etc... Polytheistic religions are filled with "flawed" gods, who make mistakes and sometimes fight each other in gray areas. Consider Greek + Egyptian mythology, Hinduism and Shintoism- all have conflicts and are similar to "celestial soap-operas". So most people exactly relate Angels with Archons and assume that they are absolute forces of good that are incapable of flaw or conflict... Which isn't right or wrong but severly hinders the goal of Celestial Wars. So my advice is to follow the polytheists and make some "human" archons.

Artanis
2007-11-16, 04:20 PM
Ok, here's an idea.


Start with a 3-way war between Devils, Demons, and Good.

Demons and Devils are already using mortals for their own ends - a high-level Warlock or Blackguard makes a hell of an ally (no pun intended) when trying to kill Angels and whatnot, right? So some Good outsiders decide to try to fight fire with fire, and start actively recruiting mortals. This includes everything from having their mightiest Paladins lead holy crusades into the evil planes themselves all the way down to using church tithes to hire mercenaries for the front lines.

However, not everybody agrees that this is a good - or for that matter, Good - idea. What starts as a debate grows more heated as time passes and more and more mortals are recruited, eventually leading to a schism between the two factions. They're still more or less on the same side, with the same greater enemies, but that doesn't stop the Recruiters from, say, poaching a high-level Paladin to send to the front, and thereby pissing off the Purists into manipulating a mob into burning down said Paladin's church so as to cut off that source of potential future recruits.

Leliel
2007-11-16, 04:30 PM
Hmmm...Sounds good...Keep 'em comin'.

Ganurath
2007-11-16, 04:40 PM
I'm thinking the best way to do this is for good outsiders to be trying to make their influence on the Material Plane drastically stronger, which draws hostility and resistence from fey and other natural beings. The mortals, of course, are the pawns of this war between cleric/paladin divine and druid/ranger divine. The demons and devils are preoccupied with infighting, as per tradition, so as to explain why they aren't meddling.

Kvenulf
2007-11-16, 05:01 PM
Actually, there are tons of potential conflicts, some of which revolve around the chaos/lawful split, some which don't. Questions of strategy alone can result in plenty of conflict. There have been a lot of good suggestions here so far, but here is one more.

LG beings are not only Good, they are also Lawful. Normally, the Good is more important, and they can let differences be. However, what if the individualistic tendencies of the CG's are frustrating efforts to win a particularly important objectives? This could set the LG's to fuming, especially if there is clear evidence of these failings. Or, contrarily, what if the LG's are suffering because of a lack of imagination and flexibility? The CG's are going to get really irked that they are defeated because of this. Combine the two, and the real potential for conflict exists, particularly since both sides are at fault.

Into this comes a trusted outsider who has fallen, although it has managed to keep this fall secret (it has taken no actions, it has simply lost faith). It begins manipulating both sides, which it can do because it was Neutral Good to begin with. It's function was to act as liason between the two sides, but it now begins telling half-truths and leaving out important pieces of information. This brings things to a boil.

Finally, a great victory over the forces of Darkness occurs. With Evil in full retreat, both sides claim they are responsible for final victory, and both claim, as their due reward, a larger claim to the spoils (whatever these may be). With the help of the fallen NG, this quickly develops from a minor disagreement into an all out confrontation, as the fallen convinces both sides that the other not only wants the lion's share, but is trying to dupe the other side and take it all.

Bang!

UserClone
2007-11-16, 05:05 PM
Have you ever read the White Wolf book Demon: the Fallen? It's got about five chapters of (awesome) backstory which might help with this idea considerably: WARNING! THE FOLLOWING CAN BE CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE TO THE STRICTLY RELIGIOUS; HOWEVER, IT IS PURELY FICTION AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN AS CANONICAL RELIGIOUS TEXT!The gist is that God commanded all the angels never to interfere with the humans he had ordered them to create (and, therefore, loved as a parent loves a child), but they could not bring themselves to let the humans suffer in ignorance of the glory of the Universe, so some of them, (Lucifer included, obviousy) decided to take it upon themselves to show themselves to the humans, and to teach them, to better them, and to show their love for their "children." This was what sparked the war between angels which subsequently resulted in the creation of Hell, and the Demons' exile into it.(the book goes into MUCH greater detail; this is just a watered-down synopsis which, fankly, doesn't do it justice. You should check it out if youu are interested in this type of storyline!)

MCerberus
2007-11-16, 05:13 PM
I'm thinking the best way to do this is for good outsiders to be trying to make their influence on the Material Plane drastically stronger, which draws hostility and resistence from fey and other natural beings. The mortals, of course, are the pawns of this war between cleric/paladin divine and druid/ranger divine. The demons and devils are preoccupied with infighting, as per tradition, so as to explain why they aren't meddling.

This is a good idea, and it has the possibility of erupting into Wheel War 1. Say Heironious (or some equivalent) is increasing his campaign against evil through his followers. Eventually the resources this war on evil needs runs afoul of Corellon. When the arguments erupt the gods split with the nature gods vs the "smite the evil" gods. Then comes Hextor. Wanting to wage war on his half-brother he tries to ally himself with Correlon, Obad(not good but would certainly be mad at H), and crew. They, of course, turn him down. Hextor takes this as an insult and brings his own faction into it.

Now you have 3 factions:
The temple gods
The nature gods
Forces of evil

Notable wild cards - Vecna, Boccob (who will choose opposite sides), Pelor, Nerul is having a picnic while enormously happy. Grummsh isn't going to side with anyone but still be causing ****. It's rather obscure but Pholtus is going to use the chance to make sure that what his followers believe (he is the one true god) comes true.

Kami2awa
2007-11-16, 06:24 PM
If you have a cosmology where the origin of evil is some kind of War in Heaven or Fall of the Rebel angels, then perhaps one angel faction fears that a second Fall is imminent and has set out to pre-emptively destroy the angels at risk of Falling (like the self-policing of the Malikim in In Nomine). Understandably the other angels aren't too keen on being the victims of genocide (angicide? celesticide?) and fight back in defence, or perhaps because they believe the genocidal angels represent a new rebellion.

Perhaps a new, powerful celestial has appeared or ascended to Godhood and some angels fear he could be a new Lucifer (perhaps a Second Fall was written in an ancient prophesy).

In this way one side is fighting to save their victims from evil, while the other is fighting in defence; both of these can be considered good (and lawful). In any case it sounds a brilliant campaign, particularly for Epic levels.

Premier
2007-11-16, 06:26 PM
This won't be a very structured post, I'm rather tired and just brainstorming.

- One of the basic assumptions of D&D must be abandoned, the assumption of black-and-white. To pull off the angel vs. angel thing, you can't have clearly divisible camps of Good and Evil. It needs to be more like Sword and Sorcery, with many overlapping shades of grey.

- As a corollary, angels and demons should be shades of grey, too. There should be devils and/or demons who are actually rather nice, compassionate fellows who care a lot about mankind; they just adamantly believe that God shouldn't be the one running the show. Conversely, some angels should not bat an eyelid over cleansing a large human city with fire just to make sure the one demon hiding out there is croaked.

- Angels, devils and demons and whatnot should be larger than life. This in turn means that the nature of their grand eternal conflict must be larger than mortal-scaled as well. And as a corollary, larger-than-life things also tend to be simple things. Such a grand, eternity-filling conflict should NOT stem from something as petty and mundane as a disagreement over theology or metaphysical economics or whatnot.

- Even though the original reasons for the conflict should be relatively simple, the lines of battle themselves should be convoluted. Angels and demons might disobey their direct orders, go renegade and cause even more trouble as they pursue their private goal - which of course they adamantly believe to be for the greater good (or what they think that to be). Think The Prophecy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114194/), in general.

- As said above the simplified black-and-white morality of D&D is simply not suitable for telling a story with the depth required to really pull this off. Along with the clear-cut Good/Evil division, the clear-cut Order/Chaos division must also go. That in turn means no Devil/Demon distinction, at least not in the way vanilla D&D does it. But that's good, you should be able to come up with something better. In fact, there might be new additions as well. A game focusing on the celestial/infernal conflict might just as well include the Grigori, for instance. Even Djinns might be thrown in for good measure - they could be, say, angels who were ordered to serve the priests, holy men and magicians of Man, but who are rather unenthusiastic about it, and try to avoid doing so if they can.

- If you want to pull this off convincingly, you need to create a rich backdrop. Most if it the PCs might never actually learn about, but it must be there for you to lean on. Instead of pulling something completely out of thin air, why not build (at least partially) on something that's already out there and which players might be at least somewhat familiar with - namely Judeo-Christian mythology? Plenty of apocryphal stuff there that your players can relate to (assuming you and your players are all Europeans/Americans).

Doresain
2007-11-17, 12:06 AM
I may suggest that a great evil force presented itself, and the Angles rushed in to fight it while the Archons took some more time to research it. The fight goes horribly bad and a high ranking good god bites it. The two sides blame each other for not doing what they should have done to prevent it and eventually think that the methods the other side use make it possible for evil to exist. In order for good to prevail they must eliminate the other side first.

i smell star wars

Neon Knight
2007-11-17, 12:10 AM
It needs to be more like Sword and Sorcery, with many overlapping shades of grey.


Pardon, but I've never seen Sword and Sorcery as gray. If we're talking Robert E. Howard Sword and sorcery, the tough manly man is all that is good, and anyone who touches magic is evil. A simple black and white divide if I ever saw one. True, Conan and Kull aren't exactly the nicest of people, but they were barbarians. Solomon Kane, another Sword and Sorcery hero, is a much more clear cut hero.

Premier
2007-11-17, 07:10 AM
Pardon, but I've never seen Sword and Sorcery as gray. If we're talking Robert E. Howard Sword and sorcery, the tough manly man is all that is good, and anyone who touches magic is evil. A simple black and white divide if I ever saw one. True, Conan and Kull aren't exactly the nicest of people, but they were barbarians. Solomon Kane, another Sword and Sorcery hero, is a much more clear cut hero.

Indeed I was talking about REH, but I strongly disagree with your statement. Conan himself uses a magical "rune" in Beyond the Black River, and magical items several times. He also allies himself with a powerful (and, as strongly implied, rather evil) magician in The Scarlet Citadel. He also becomes the leader of ruthless bandits and pirates on sevral occasions. Definitely not Good as per the D&D alignment system.

UserClone
2007-11-17, 08:05 AM
Again, I strongly reccomend a look at Demon: the Fallen. In addition to having seven houses of angels (arranged by duties) and seven of demons (one for each house of former angels; arranged by type of suffering), there are also five factions of former angels (demons, arranged by ideology).

daggaz
2007-11-17, 09:01 AM
Here is an easy one.

One faction of angels is WAY to strict and uncompromising in their fight against evil. In their minds, ALL evil must be purged, with no exception. Unfortunately for the mortal races, this includes them for the most part. They all have the possibility to commit evil acts, and in fact, their civilizations tend to fester under the heinous crimes of evil individuals. The idealistic angels see them as a taint on the world that must be cleansed, even pre-emptively in the case of the less devout races (humans for example). If innocents are truly encountered, well, they must be killed as well. If they are truly good and innocent of all evil, they will be rewarded with an eternity in Celestia. But they must not be allowed to breed, lest the evil spread. The slate MUST be wiped clean, it is for the Greater Good of the entire prime plane. The angels gear up for war, and the only thing stopping the genocide is...

The other faction of angels, who believe that no innocent should be punished for crimes their children may or may not commit, and that all the races show the possibility of becoming truly good, given time, and should be allowed this chance. These angels of course see the warring faction as borderline evil, and openly wonder if they have not truly fallen.

Mikeavelli
2007-11-17, 09:13 AM
The rules exist for a purpose.

They were laid down from on high at the beginning of the Multiverse, and chief among them was to not interfere directly in the matters of the Prime Material Plane. Every being on Mt. Celestia knows something terrible will happen if this rule is ever broken, and so they sit back, and wait.

There are loopholes of course, Celestials summoned down by mortal mages and clerics, and even the magic gods grant to their clerics - but these are well within the established rules. There is no conflict over the meaning there.

Every once in a while, a mortal with the divine spark will prove his worth to ascend to the Mount as a new god of Law and good. They bring enthusiasm that some of the older gods lack, and often show great enough wisdom to heed to advice of the established pantheons. One recently arisen power has seen fit to ignore the most sacred rule of non-interference, he walks bodily among his followers on the Prime, flanked by the most powerful servitors of good, questing forth like he did as a mortal, banishing evil from his world. He is truly a good person, converting the monstrous races to goodness, rooting up the unsaveable evil and destroying it utterly. Soon, his world will know nothing but peace under the benevolent eye of their new god.

In the heavens, his fellow gods warned him of the folly of his ways, that he would be struck down for his hubris, be humbled by the ancient creators as many of them were in the days of old. Or worse, he might fall himself, give in to the temptation of tyranny, and sink into the very evil ways he opposes.

So far, none of this has happened, the prodigal son of a backwater prime is succeeding where all others have fallen. The other powers, they're worried, why isn't he being humbled? Where have the ancients gone? Why aren't they coming back to put an end to this? Will we be punished for failing to enforce the laws when they DO return?

Warily, they begin preparations. They will try to reason with the new god, convince him of the error of his ways, but some realize already he will never listen. He will have to be forced down.

That should be enough plot hooks for that one.

--------

Second Scenario:

This one was actually a published adventure in 2nd edition Planescape that I don't have around anymore. I'd never run it because the players essentially go off and kill the Christian god, and it amazes me it ever got published, since it came out around the time AD&D was getting blasted for encouraging devil worshipping. But, it fits...

In Sigil, and around the Planes, the Tanar'Ri are appearing in record numbers. Most planars believe it's some kind of trick, some obscenely complicated plan to bring yet more evil to the Planes, or advance the Byzantine agenda of some Demon Prince.

Truth be told, a few might be taking advantage of the situation, but none of them are behind it. The Tanar'Ri are confused, never having expected to leave the Abyss when they did. Oh certainly they're all up for a little random carnage when they get here, but it's disorganized, and quickly put down when it breaks out. If it weren't for the sheer quantity of Demons popping up, no-one would notice a break from the usual.

When the players end up investigating this, they eventually find their way to a layer of the Abyss, filled with pools of liquid fire, the smell of brimstone, and demons torturing damned souls. Standard hell stuff.

Once in a while though, the players encounter tortured souls (Petitioners) that aren't getting whipped by Tanar'Ri at the moment, and actually talk with them, they're good! One of them, the leader of a band that has come together to fight off the Tanar'Ri (while they can hold out) - was actually a Paladin in life!

The players eventually find out that everyone on this layer of the abyss comes from the same Prime world, where a single god of goodness is all that exists. The majority of the world believes in him, but some few still cling to their old faiths, or have merely questioned the benevolence of the one god. For these crimes, they all go straight to hell when they die.

Naturally, evil people show up here as well, but we expected that.

The problem here is that so many lawful and good people showing up on a Chaotic Evil plane is starting to unbalance the plane itself. If this goes on for too much longer, the Abyss itself is going to slide away, or at least that layer of it – something that’ll wreak untold havoc across the Planes, especially seeing as how it’s ALREADY wreaking havoc across the Planes.

There exists a gate from the Abyss straight to that particular god's realm on Mt. Celestia. An Archon who was cast down for questioning why good souls were going to the Abyss leads them there, but cannot go in there with them.

They show up on the Mount, asking questions and causing chaos. The celestials up there recommend they leave immediately, since they're not followers of the unnamed god. They're not hostile about it, but eventually become so. The main encounters here include a high level, Lawful evil sadistic bastard who also happens to be a favored inquisitor of this particular god. The fact that he’s evil didn’t stop him from getting into heaven, and he hunts the players down after hearing about how there are nonbelievers in the realm.

Also, they find out where a portal to the God’s Prime is.

Last leg of the Adventure occurs on that particular Prime, where they pass through a city, see public executions for all sorts of crimes. It goes something along the lines of “Heresy, Heresy, Theft, Heresy, Adultery, Murder, Heresy, etc.” – an Earthquake hits the city and injures a little girl. Trivial for healing magic to fix, but probably fatal if its not applied – if they heal the little girl, they’re denounced as heretics and run out of the city by an angry mob, etc.

Eventually they come to the location of the most Holy of Holies – a temple where the physical manifestation of god’s power lies – which is also the means to destroy him. It’s guarded entirely by Celestials of varying power, all of which try to convince the players to turn around and leave before fighting them. They’re good, they recognize the players are good mortals, but they can’t disobey the orders of god.

At the climax, the players find the Rod, and learn its power. It can allow the user to communicate with every being on the planet, simultaneously. The object is for one of the players to take it, use it, and convince the entire world that their one true god is, in fact, evil – or otherwise make them doubt their faith in him. If the entire world doubts him at the very same moment, he dies.

The DM then takes the voice of god, who also contacts everyone on the planet simultaneously, and they debate the ethics of his rule, a debate the DM is bound to lose since the whole adventure has been dropping hints about what arguments to make. At the end of it, the power of the rod consumes the player who used it, killing them beyond even the reach of a True Resurrection or Wish spell.

UserClone
2007-11-17, 09:28 AM
Here is an easy one.

One faction of angels isThe Decepticons are WAY to strict and uncompromising in their fight against evil. In their minds, ALL evil must be purged, with no exception. Unfortunately for the mortal races, this includes them for the most part. They all have the possibility to commit evil acts, and in fact, their civilizations tend to fester under the heinous crimes of evil individuals. The idealistic angels see them as a taint on the world that must be cleansed, even pre-emptively in the case of the less devout races (humans for example). If innocents are truly encountered, well, they must be killed as well. If they are truly good and innocent of all evil, they will be rewarded with an eternity in Celestia. But they must not be allowed to breed, lest the evil spread. The slate MUST be wiped clean, it is for the Greater Good of the entire prime plane. The angels gear up for war, and the only thing stopping the genocide is...

The other faction of angelsThe Autobots, who believe that no innocent should be punished for crimes their children may or may not commit, and that all the races show the possibility of becoming truly good, given time, and should be allowed this chance. These angels of course see the warring faction as borderline evil, and openly wonder if they have not truly fallen.

Now be honest...how many of you saw this coming?:smallwink:

UserClone
2007-11-17, 09:34 AM
*snip*This one was actually a published adventure in 2nd edition Planescape*snip*Wow. That is made of awesome. Do you remember the name of it?

Neon Knight
2007-11-17, 11:06 AM
Indeed I was talking about REH, but I strongly disagree with your statement. Conan himself uses a magical "rune" in Beyond the Black River, and magical items several times. He also allies himself with a powerful (and, as strongly implied, rather evil) magician in The Scarlet Citadel. He also becomes the leader of ruthless bandits and pirates on sevral occasions. Definitely not Good as per the D&D alignment system.

We could probably have a lengthy off topic digression about this, but that wouldn't serve the original poster very well. I'll just point to Solomon Kane, an upstanding Puritan swordsman who could probably qualify for Paladin-ship who opposes vengeful demons, voodoo, and black hat wearing evil French bandits and say that the quality of gray morality is not fundamental to the S&S genre, and that for the most part magic is depicted as evil.

Leliel
2007-11-17, 03:49 PM
--------

*Snip*

Second Scenario:

This one was actually a published adventure in 2nd edition Planescape that I don't have around anymore. I'd never run it because the players essentially go off and kill the Christian god, and it amazes me it ever got published, since it came out around the time AD&D was getting blasted for encouraging devil worshiping. But, it fits...

In Sigil, and around the Planes, the Tamarra are appearing in record numbers. Most planars believe it's some kind of trick, some obscenely complicated plan to bring yet more evil to the Planes, or advance the Byzantine agenda of some Demon Prince.

Truth be told, a few might be taking advantage of the situation, but none of them are behind it. The Tanar'Ri are confused, never having expected to leave the Abyss when they did. Oh certainly they're all up for a little random carnage when they get here, but it's disorganized, and quickly put down when it breaks out. If it weren't for the sheer quantity of Demons popping up, no-one would notice a break from the usual.

When the players end up investigating this, they eventually find their way to a layer of the Abyss, filled with pools of liquid fire, the smell of brimstone, and demons torturing damned souls. Standard hell stuff.

Once in a while though, the players encounter tortured souls (Petitioners) that aren't getting whipped by Tanar'Ri at the moment, and actually talk with them, they're good! One of them, the leader of a band that has come together to fight off the Tanar'Ri (while they can hold out) - was actually a Paladin in life!

The players eventually find out that everyone on this layer of the abyss comes from the same Prime world, where a single god of goodness is all that exists. The majority of the world believes in him, but some few still cling to their old faiths, or have merely questioned the benevolence of the one god. For these crimes, they all go straight to hell when they die.

Naturally, evil people show up here as well, but we expected that.

The problem here is that so many lawful and good people showing up on a Chaotic Evil plane is starting to unbalance the plane itself. If this goes on for too much longer, the Abyss itself is going to slide away, or at least that layer of it – something that’ll wreak untold havoc across the Planes, especially seeing as how it’s ALREADY wreaking havoc across the Planes.

There exists a gate from the Abyss straight to that particular god's realm on Mt. Celestia. An Archon who was cast down for questioning why good souls were going to the Abyss leads them there, but cannot go in there with them.

They show up on the Mount, asking questions and causing chaos. The celestials up there recommend they leave immediately, since they're not followers of the unnamed god. They're not hostile about it, but eventually become so. The main encounters here include a high level, Lawful evil sadistic bastard who also happens to be a favored inquisitor of this particular god. The fact that he’s evil didn’t stop him from getting into heaven, and he hunts the players down after hearing about how there are nonbelievers in the realm.

Also, they find out where a portal to the God’s Prime is.

Last leg of the Adventure occurs on that particular Prime, where they pass through a city, see public executions for all sorts of crimes. It goes something along the lines of “Heresy, Heresy, Theft, Heresy, Adultery, Murder, Heresy, etc.” – an Earthquake hits the city and injures a little girl. Trivial for healing magic to fix, but probably fatal if its not applied – if they heal the little girl, they’re denounced as heretics and run out of the city by an angry mob, etc.

Eventually they come to the location of the most Holy of Holies – a temple where the physical manifestation of god’s power lies – which is also the means to destroy him. It’s guarded entirely by Celestials of varying power, all of which try to convince the players to turn around and leave before fighting them. They’re good, they recognize the players are good mortals, but they can’t disobey the orders of god.

At the climax, the players find the Rod, and learn its power. It can allow the user to communicate with every being on the planet, simultaneously. The object is for one of the players to take it, use it, and convince the entire world that their one true god is, in fact, evil – or otherwise make them doubt their faith in him. If the entire world doubts him at the very same moment, he dies.

The DM then takes the voice of god, who also contacts everyone on the planet simultaneously, and they debate the ethics of his rule, a debate the DM is bound to lose since the whole adventure has been dropping hints about what arguments to make. At the end of it, the power of the rod consumes the player who used it, killing them beyond even the reach of a True Resurrection or Wish spell.

Do I detect shades of Shin Megami Tensi?

That's fine, beacuse I LOVE those games!

That, and the whole "God is Evil" trope. Always a nice twist to throw at the players.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-17, 04:14 PM
i smell star wars
Well, at least it was KotOR.

I like Mikeavelli's first proposition quite a lot. I wouldn't touch the second one with a ten foot pole, not because it's offensive, but because I find that kind of plot dreadfully predictable.

Mikeavelli
2007-11-17, 10:47 PM
Wow. That is made of awesome. Do you remember the name of it?

Tossed around a while looking for it again, it was called "Rapture" - and most of the internet seems to have disavowed its existence except for mentioning the name in lists of Planescape material.

John Campbell
2007-11-18, 01:01 AM
I strongly recommend that you read Steven Brust's To Reign In Hell.

Without being too spoily: This is the story of the War in Heaven, as told as a modern fantasy novel.

For the more detailed version:

Basically, the angels are in an intermittent but unending struggle against the forces of chaos and unbeing, which analysis suggests that they'll eventually lose. During one of the periods of peace, the first and most powerful of the angels comes up with a means of ending this struggle, with the caveat that it'll throw them into danger sooner than would happen naturally, will require the assistance of all of the angels, and will result in the destruction of many of them... but after it's done, the survivors will be safe forevermore.

He proposes this solution to the second of the angels, who agrees with the necessity of enacting the plan, but points out that many of the angels, especially the youngest ones who don't really remember the last battle, or who don't believe the analysis that predicts their eventual defeat, or who are just not willing to risk short-term destruction to avoid possible long-term destruction, won't go for it, and that the plan will fail and destroy them all if the unwilling angels don't do their bit.

The first of the angels points out that this is for the greater good; that if it isn't done, they'll all be destroyed eventually, both willing and unwilling. Therefore, for the continued survival of all creation, the plan must be enacted, and the unwilling angels must be forced to cooperate.

The second of the angels asserts that doing this would be wrong, that the ends do not justify the means, and so if the unwilling angels can't be convinced to voluntarily join in, the plan must be abandoned, even if it means all their deaths.

And there's miscommunication and misunderstandings and mistakes and meddling by people less well-meaning, and the second of the angels, a guy named Satan, ends up leading an army against the first angel, his best friend, Yahweh, because he refuses to force other angels to participate, at risk of their lives, in a plan that he supports.

Paragon Badger
2007-11-18, 01:15 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori

Don't know what to input myself, but that might help you out a bit.