Ways to feed people in a ruined world

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, you're a cleric 20 (or whatever other class you'd like) with 20 Wis (I know, a bit low, but you rolled badly). You killed the demon king or whatever, and have become the hero of the world, and especially your hometown. Suddenly, the news break: an infinite number of portals just opened to the Negative energy Plane, killing most people in the world, and infecting the soil so that no crop can grow. Only your town is left, with its few dozen of thousands of inhabitants, all of them commoners. You know the gods won't let this tragedy happen, and will close the portals in the following months. Until then, you have to feed your people.

A quick calculation gives you 34 non-domain spell slots above level 3. If you fill those with Create food and water with a caster level of 20, you can feed 2040 people. That is good, yes, but far from what you'd like. Is there a way you could feed all of these people by yourself? How many can you sustain?

Rules:
-Miracle and other "You can theoretically do anything" spells do not work. The gods are busy trying to track the origin of the portals and will only give you the bare minimum out of your spells. This also applies to planar ally/binding, which might work (just bind a planetar with each spell slot above 6th, they can prepare more Create Food spells than you) but is not preferred.
-You're in a ruined world, you have only pocket change yourself (8,399gp, yes I chose this amount purely randomly) and no way to get rare magic items or the necessary components to craft anything not printed.

How would you go about it?

[Cruiser1]

It's easy depending on your build and feat selection. :smallbiggrin: A Spelldancer Cleric build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?356451) that has Twin Spell and Repeat Spell can dance up Twin Repeat versions of Create Food and Water, getting 4x the amount of food. Also, since you only need to feed the people yourself for "a few months" (after which the gods are less busy and Miracle will work) you can start by putting everybody on half rations. You can now feed 8x the number of people, so we're up to 16320 people fed.

Also, if you have the feat Echoing Spell (SoX), each Create Food and Water casting can be cast at CL 20, 16, 12, and 8 before expiring, allowing you to feed 20+16+12+8 = 56 people per casting instead of just 20. That increases the total by 2.8x, for 45696 people fed, which should meet the "few dozen of thousands" population requirement. :smalltongue:

[zlefin]

I'm a little unclear on some of the Polymorph any object rules on adjusting sizes.
If I'm reading it right, I can use polymorph any object to turn a Dog into a Whale permanently; though perhaps the 'reverts on death' rule still applies.


hmm, gating in a whale would cost too much xp.

I'm also unclear about the feasibility of acquiring a hydra or other regenerator and using it as a food source.

Plane-shifting to somewhere to get a whale, plane shift back, then teleport back to actually get to town; it'd work, but first you'd have to dominate the whale or some such to make it a willing target to work well, and ofc you'd have to find one.

Using gate to move a bunch of people to one of the safer celestial planes where there's enough food might work. You can move quite a lot of people in one casting by the looks of it, as long as they're lined up well and ready to move.

[Jack_Simth]

So, you're a cleric 20 (or whatever other class you'd like) with 20 Wis (I know, a bit low, but you rolled badly). You killed the demon king or whatever, and have become the hero of the world, and especially your hometown. Suddenly, the news break: an infinite number of portals just opened to the Negative energy Plane, killing most people in the world, and infecting the soil so that no crop can grow. Only your town is left, with its few dozen of thousands of inhabitants, all of them commoners. You know the gods won't let this tragedy happen, and will close the portals in the following months. Until then, you have to feed your people.

A quick calculation gives you 34 non-domain spell slots above level 3. If you fill those with Create food and water with a caster level of 20, you can feed 2040 people. That is good, yes, but far from what you'd like. Is there a way you could feed all of these people by yourself? How many can you sustain?

Rules:
-Miracle and other "You can theoretically do anything" spells do not work. The gods are busy trying to track the origin of the portals and will only give you the bare minimum out of your spells. This also applies to planar ally/binding, which might work (just bind a planetar with each spell slot above 6th, they can prepare more Create Food spells than you) but is not preferred.
-You're in a ruined world, you have only pocket change yourself (8,399gp, yes I chose this amount purely randomly) and no way to get rare magic items or the necessary components to craft anything not printed.

How would you go about it?
The Everfull Larder (Stronghold Builder's Guide) has a market price of 15k. Crafting it is in your budget, and it's a printed item. It produces food sufficient to feed five people every time it's opened. Takes fifteen days, so you'll be feeding folks in rotation via Create Food and Water until then. Echoing Spell, Twin Spell, and Repeat Spell are of course handy feats to have for this, but as it takes three days before you need to start making checks for food (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#starvationAndThirst), you can keep three or four times your actual spellcasting production value in folks alive. It's very unpleasant to only get one good meal every three or four days, but it's survivable for two weeks.

However, you probably don't really need to bother with Create Food and Water, if it's only going to be a couple months. For practical reasons of the growing season, basically all ancient towns actually had a year or more of basic foodstuffs at all times.

[loky1109]

Innate Spell with metamagic redaction.

[False God]

How many is "all of those people"? 2000 is a pretty fair number, and we could probably feed double that if everyone ate only every other day.

Are we to go on "my town" as in where I currently reside? That's about 60k people.

Can I just Gate everyone somewhere else? Even if its a temporary situation, I'd reason I likely have enough points in Diplomacy(max 43+5+synergies+bonuses from wherever) (a cleric skill) to establish friendly relations with some civilization elsewhere that could house my people as temporary refugees, possibly in exchange for labor or something my people can reasonably provide.

[flappeercraft]

Honestly, the main way I would deal with it would be via Spell Slot Recovery, of which I have a handbook in my signature.

[Jack_Simth]

Honestly, the main way I would deal with it would be via Spell Slot Recovery, of which I have a handbook in my signature.

Even with effectively unlimited spell slots, though, Create Food and Water has a ten minute casting time. You need one hour to prepare spells, there's that pesky 8 hour recent casting limit, and you need a little time to survive yourself. You can get like 84 castings in during a day.

[Beni-Kujaku]

How many is "all of those people"? 2000 is a pretty fair number.

Can I just Gate everyone somewhere else?

I don't know how many‚ this is not a real situation in any game I'm playing‚ I just want to see up to how many we can go. As a first estimate and considering what we already have‚ I'd say around 100k. If we can reach this easily‚ then would it be possible to go up to a million‚ etc.

And about Gate-ing everyone outta here.... Well‚ these are still the Outer Planes. There's a reason planeshift is so high level: you can't protect so many low level people when outsiders roam. Even in the planes of Good‚ everyone that is a bit too neutral will just get killed by the first lantern archon. And I'm obviously not talking about the elemental planes.


A Spelldancer Cleric build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?356451) that has Twin Spell and Repeat Spell can dance up Twin Repeat versions of Create Food and Water, getting 4x the amount of food.

Sadly‚ not only can you not dance forever without having to do Fortitude checks‚ spelldance can't apply to the school of "invocation" (I believe it should be conjuration).

But these are good starts. Could you find another way to cast Twin Repeated Echoing Rapid (to offset the 10-minutes casting time) Create Food and Water? Would Southern Magician into Arcane thesis work? Is there a way to get infinite amounts of Turn Undead for DMM without submerging yourself in Nightsticks?

[Fizban]

Even with effectively unlimited spell slots, though, Create Food and Water has a ten minute casting time. You need one hour to prepare spells, there's that pesky 8 hour recent casting limit, and you need a little time to survive yourself. You can get like 84 castings in during a day.
Personally I would apply the same limit to the Everfull Larder, leaving it still far more than sufficient for its intended purpose, but usable no more than 144 times per day with perfect cycling. Still enough for 2,160 meals.


Sustain (BoED) is 4th level, hits 1 creature/2 levels and lasts 6 hours/level. At 20th level that would be 5 days, so it hits 1/6 as many people for only 5 times the duration- but can also be extended. It also "instantly relieves the negative effects of hunger" so you might be able to stretch longer between castings. You'd need Eschew Materials once you run out of bread and wine though.

Estanna's Stew (BoED) is 2nd and creates 1 serving/2 levels, but is silent on whether the healing stew is also nutritive. Maybe worth a few more.

Goodberry is of course 1st, and serves 2d4, but only works until you run out of fresh individual berries. Also maybe worth a few more.

If you're allowed knowledge abuse, cast an assortment of single skill check boosters and suddenly invent hydroponics so you don't need soil to grow food?

[Maat Mons]

Stone to Flesh can turn over 70 cubic feet of ordinary rock into an equal volume of highly disconcerting meat with each casting. The internet says raw meats are around 60 pounds per cubic foot. The internet also says you get between 650 and 1300 calories per pound of meat, depending on how lean or fatty it is.

Even with the low estimates, you're getting enough calories to meet the daily needs of over 1400 people with each casting of Stone to Flesh.

So an Archivist who cribbed Stone to Flesh as a 5th-level spell off a scroll scribed by a Healer would be ideal. Hmm, a 20th-level Archivist has 25 slots to cast Stone to Flesh from, plus however many from Wisdom score. That's 35,000 people getting 2,000 calories per day, or proportionally more getting proportionally less.

[InvisibleBison]

And about Gate-ing everyone outta here.... Well‚ these are still the Outer Planes. There's a reason planeshift is so high level: you can't protect so many low level people when outsiders roam. Even in the planes of Good‚ everyone that is a bit too neutral will just get killed by the first lantern archon. And I'm obviously not talking about the elemental planes.

You'd evacuate to the Astral Plane. It's mostly empty and timeless with regard to hunger.

[False God]

Stone to Flesh can turn over 70 cubic feet of ordinary rock into an equal volume of highly disconcerting meat with each casting. The internet says raw meats are around 60 pounds per cubic foot. The internet also says you get between 650 and 1300 calories per pound of meat, depending on how lean or fatty it is.

Even with the low estimates, you're getting enough calories to meet the daily needs of over 1400 people with each casting of Stone to Flesh.

So an Archivist who cribbed Stone to Flesh as a 5th-level spell off a scroll scribed by a Healer would be ideal. Hmm, a 20th-level Archivist has 25 slots to cast Stone to Flesh from, plus however many from Wisdom score. That's 35,000 people getting 2,000 calories per day, or proportionally more getting proportionally less.

Alternatively, you could just Flesh to Stone your people, and then Stone to Flesh them back when the danger has passed.

[Silly Name]

You'd evacuate to the Astral Plane. It's mostly empty and timeless with regard to hunger.

That, or you have a safe demiplane to travel to.

[Murg]

Alternatively, you could just Flesh to Stone your people, and then Stone to Flesh them back when the danger has passed.

That's a good idea, and if you could find a basilisk or cockatrice it could speed up the stoning process. The downside though is everyone would have to make a DC 15 fortitude check upon being un-stoned to survive, which would be difficult for a commoner. Of course you could always cast raise dead on the ones who fail their saves...

[Calthropstu]

Stone to flesh.
Commoners gather stone, you turn it into meat.

Create demiplane, gather food from there.

Gate (the permanent kind)

There's a lot of ways.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's a good idea, and if you could find a basilisk or cockatrice it could speed up the stoning process. The downside though is everyone would have to make a DC 15 fortitude check upon being un-stoned to survive, which would be difficult for a commoner. Of course you could always cast raise dead on the ones who fail their saves...

Mass conviction ups that to a 50/50 shot of surviving with a +5 morale bonus to saves, and recitation will toss another +2 luck to your saves.

[Jack_Simth]

Personally I would apply the same limit to the Everfull Larder, leaving it still far more than sufficient for its intended purpose, but usable no more than 144 times per day with perfect cycling. Still enough for 2,160 meals.So you're saying it takes ten minutes to open a door to a larder? Interesting take, and sounds very much like an invented problem intended to spoil the specific solution to the scenario.


Sustain (BoED) is 4th level, hits 1 creature/2 levels and lasts 6 hours/level. At 20th level that would be 5 days, so it hits 1/6 as many people for only 5 times the duration- but can also be extended. It also "instantly relieves the negative effects of hunger" so you might be able to stretch longer between castings. You'd need Eschew Materials once you run out of bread and wine though.
Worth the 5th level slots compared to Create Food and Water, yes.


Estanna's Stew (BoED) is 2nd and creates 1 serving/2 levels, but is silent on whether the healing stew is also nutritive. Maybe worth a few more.
Hard to do anything else with the 2nd's.


Goodberry is of course 1st, and serves 2d4, but only works until you run out of fresh individual berries. Also maybe worth a few more.Not a Cleric spell, though, and the scenario is Cleric-specific.

[redking]

Do you have any psion friends? Feeding people is a mistake. People have more needs than just food. Wait until the plague breaks out among your refugees, and it will.

What you need is a way to keep your people safe and inert. You need quintessence (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm), which can be created by a psion. Coat a large structure, a cave will do, with quintessence on the inside, and plug the hole in the cave with quintessence on the outside.


Objects sealed within quintessence are protected from the effects of time; in practical terms, they enter a state of stasis.


Large quantities of quintessence could theoretically be gathered to preserve large items or structures (or even a complete living creature; if completely immersed, a living creature would not take the damage associated with partial contact).

With these people protected, you can work on ending the crisis rather than dealing with its symptoms (starving, sick people).

[loky1109]

Supernatural transformation + polymorph into Medusa or another monster with unlimited petrification. Statues aren't starving.
Stone to Flesh them after.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here ya go:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[White Blade]

Do you have any psion friends? Feeding people is a mistake. People have more needs than just food. Wait until the plague breaks out among your refugees, and it will.



There are very few diseases that a third level expert with heal cannot handle. Under the hood, medicine in 3.5 is very advanced.

[haplot]

i know it would take a while to organise, but if you knew it was going to happen, could always spam make / get ring of sustenance.

Also could try swinging it past dm to make rings of wizardry apply to divine spells :smallsmile:

[Fizban]

So you're saying it takes ten minutes to open a door to a larder? Interesting take, and sounds very much like an invented problem intended to spoil the specific solution to the scenario.
No, there's just nothing there if you open it again until the ten minutes have passed. It's not an "invented problem to spoil the specific solution," it's a perfectly reasonable limit to put on the item in general. It already has true spammable use and potential incentive to use it well beyond the equivalent 5/day price, no reason to also give it casting time violation as well. Obviously if run completely as written it's the easy answer, there's no reason to bother repeating or contesting that. But it's not how I'd run the item, and hey look this perfectly reasonable limit I've had written down for ages cuts the cheesability by a factor of 100 while still allowing it to be used for its intended purpose of feeding your stronghold.

Not a Cleric spell, though, and the scenario is Cleric-specific.
I figured someone might go looking for a domain that holds it, though I'm not aware of one off the top of my head. Considering how the OP seems more interested in specific metamagic builds (which one could not retroactively have without Psychic Reformation) than the instant published item solution, they might be interested in the extra handful if there's a domain that can be wrenched into place.

[Bohandas]

you can fix the soil with something that eats soil and Purify Food and Drink. After that if you can find seeds from some kind of edible natural vegetation you can grow them instantly with Plant Growth

EDIT:
Does Make Whole work if you don't have the entire object? If it does you could just keep casting it on a big bread loaf or a roast pig or something

EDIT:
What alignment is your cleric? There's a spell in Book of Vile Darkness that can make it rain fish.

[Bonzai]

Two words.... Troll Ranch! Just need to supply each village with a troll and they can carve off what they need each day. Steaks for everyone!

[Maat Mons]

The OP says "or whatever other class you'd like." So no need to restrict ourselves to Clerics.

I don't understand why people regard Everfull Larder as a "problem" that needs to be "fixed." A high-enough-level character can make a lasting change in the lives of a large number of people. Why is this a bad thing?

You know what doesn't need to eat? Non-native outsiders. You could start ranching them for meat, eggs, and milk. Imagine the size of the omelet you could make with an egg from a Behemoth Eagle!

If almost everyone is dead, it sounds like a great time for looting! Surely, some of the now-dead people had food, supplies, and gold that they no longer need. Really, I'd be wasteful not to take it all for yourself.

Speaking of gold, can we just buy food from planar markets? Or book everyone says in planar B&Bs?

How many people do we need to save to successfully repopulate the material plane anyway?

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've heard numbers between 98 (!) and 14 000 breeding pairs required to maintain enough genetic diversity to support a healthy population increase.

[Mechalich]

I don't understand why people regard Everfull Larder as a "problem" that needs to be "fixed." A high-enough-level character can make a lasting change in the lives of a large number of people. Why is this a bad thing?


The Everfull Larder, if optimized, destroys settings. I ran some numbers for it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626778-Surviving-A-Thousand-Year-Winter&p=24923962#post24923962) the last time this sort of scenario was discussed. It's one of the many, many things in 3.5 that make a complete mockery of the idea of D&D worlds presenting as anything even resembling medieval worlds. In fact the very fact that we are able to discuss the OP's proposed problem at all as a potentially solvable scenario gives the lie to the 'medieval' nature of D&D.

[Fizban]

I don't understand why people regard Everfull Larder as a "problem" that needs to be "fixed." A high-enough-level character can make a lasting change in the lives of a large number of people. Why is this a bad thing?
High level character make a fundamental change in the underlying technology and subsistence (read: the thing 90% of the population does as their more-than-full-time job) of the setting for those people they can reach: acceptable. A 5th level character doing it for 200,000 people (assuming perfect logistics, which are impossible and require an entire new area of research to guesstimate) with an out-of-pocket cost equivalent to a +2 sword (the 7,500 it takes to craft it)? Not acceptable to most people. And so easily fixed it it isn't a problem to any DM that doesn't want it to be, but what sort of fix and how in-line with the existing prices and formula/guidelines it is and what the more moderate approach results in, are all useful to know.

And as it happens, the ridiculous amount of food the Everfull Larder produces as written, is easily cut to a still massive but much more manageable number if you enforce the spell's long casting time. So if you want it to be a massive amount of food compared to anything the PCs would ever need, but still small enough that feeding an entire city requires a handful of items instead of just one and thus at least some noticeable amount of investment, hey there's a nice easy thing that fits well within established rules and guidelines.

What I don't get is complaining about a nerf that still allows a 15,000gp item (craft 7,500!) to feed more than 2,000 people forever. That's not some horrible unfun draconian limitation. The real limiting version would be to rule it as a cost equivalent 5/day item that can only feed 75 people per day. The 10 minute limitation is still allowing the fun of ridiculous unlimited at-will shenanigans, just minus a couple orders of magnitude so there's some effort involved rather than lol magic winz next question.


In fact the very fact that we are able to discuss the OP's proposed problem at all as a potentially solvable scenario gives the lie to the 'medieval' nature of D&D.
I am increasingly finding that what I should actually be reading is the transition into the Early Modern period, the fine details of exactly how X new technology cause Y, Z, etc. Since DnD does have easy analogues for motorized transport and long-distance communication, but destruction is less easily produced/more easily curtailed. And that's kinda the tone of a lot of stuff seems to take anyway.


Two words.... Troll Ranch! Just need to supply each village with a troll and they can carve off what they need each day. Steaks for everyone!
IIRC, there's a disease in BoVD specifically for eating Troll. But not one for regenerators in general, which is one reason aside from style that the Tarrasque farming city was a thing.

[White Blade]

The Everfull Larder, if optimized, destroys settings. I ran some numbers for it (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626778-Surviving-A-Thousand-Year-Winter&p=24923962#post24923962) the last time this sort of scenario was discussed. It's one of the many, many things in 3.5 that make a complete mockery of the idea of D&D worlds presenting as anything even resembling medieval worlds. In fact the very fact that we are able to discuss the OP's proposed problem at all as a potentially solvable scenario gives the lie to the 'medieval' nature of D&D.

But why do we care if the Everfull Larder ruins the "medieval aspect" of D&D settings? They're after-the-end magical westerns set in Arcadian farming communities, with gender equality, centralized monarchies, advanced medicine, peripheral religion, active gods, and superheroes/villains. All of that is before the abundant food provided by the larders.


I am increasingly finding that what I should actually be reading is the transition into the Early Modern period, the fine details of exactly how X new technology cause Y, Z, etc. Since DnD does have easy analogues for motorized transport and long-distance communication, but destruction is less easily produced/more easily curtailed. And that's kinda the tone of a lot of stuff seems to take anyway.

In terms of technological basis, even a scaled down Everful Larder is more akin to the Green Revolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution) than to anything before industrial society took off.

[Maat Mons]

I always thought the D&D equivalent of modern agriculture was a Hand of the Oak Father. For 5,000 gp, you get an item that lets you keep 180,000 acres constantly under a Plant Growth effect.

Some guy on the internet says 6 acres could feed up to 12 people using medieval farming practices. So the extra +1/3rd production means and extra 120,000 people fed off the land affected by the Hand. That same guy says potatoes increase the number of people fed per acre tenfold. In that case, if you're in a D&D setting where potatoes are a thing, that 5,000 gp is keeping 1.2 million people fed.

[White Blade]

I always thought the D&D equivalent of modern agriculture was a Hand of the Oak Father. For 5,000 gp, you get an item that lets you keep 180,000 acres constantly under a Plant Growth effect.

Some guy on the internet says 6 acres could feed up to 12 people using medieval farming practices. So the extra +1/3rd production means and extra 120,000 people fed off the land affected by the Hand. That same guy says potatoes increase the number of people fed per acre tenfold. In that case, if you're in a D&D setting where potatoes are a thing, that 5,000 gp is keeping 1.2 million people fed.

But it also has to feed the laborers who do the harvest, clear the weeds, and so forth doesn't it? - And obviously I'm not some kind of genius in agricultural technique, but if you're deploying 360,000 laborers to till the fields, that's 36k per year. That's really peanuts to how much more efficient modern farming is than medieval farming. We sustain our population in the U.S. on about 1% farm workers - There's really no "modern" equivalent level - You can take an Everfull Larder (nerfed or not) or you can take the Hand, but they're either genuinely excessive swap (3/2000 to feed a country) or not even close to the gap you need to cross to catch up with moderns.

[AvatarVecna]

Age: Venerable
Race: Half-Fey Magic-Blooded Unseelie Fey Lesser Aasimar, later becomes Saint (LA Buyoff)
Class: Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Sorcerer +4

LA Buyoff: +2 --> 6 levels --> +1 --> 3 levels --> +0 --> Saint template --> +2 --> 6 levels --> +1 --> 3 levels --> +0

LA bought off in 18 levels

Attributes (point-buy): 14/10/14/9/9/18
All attribute buffs go to Cha. Purchase +5 tome for Cha. Get +6 enhancement items for Cha.
Attributes (lvl 20 with items): 6/8/6/12/16/51

Spell Slots: 6/11/11/11/11/10/10/10/10/9

Flaws: Any two besides Pathetic Charisma

Visit Otyugh Hole thrice for "Iron Will" and "Skill Focus: Intimidate" thrice. The skill focus get DCS'd into a more useful feat each time it's gained.

Feats: Arcane Thesis (Create Food And Water), Arcane Thesis (Create Water), Arcane Thesis (Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion), Echoing Spell, Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Rapid Spell, Repeat Spell, Reserves Of Strength, Sacred Vow, Sanctum Spell, Twin Spell, Vow Of Chastity, Vow Of Obedience

0th (6): "Create Water" CL 25 (6x50=300)
1st (11): Echoing/Sanctum "Create Water" CL 25 (11x2x[25+21+17+13+9+5+1]=2002)
2nd (11): Echoing "Create Water" CL 25 (11x2x[25+21+17+13+9+5+1]=2002)
3rd (11): Rapid "Create Food And Water" CL 25 (11x3x25=825)
4th (11): Echoing/Rapid/Sanctum "Create Food And Water" CL 25 (11x3x[25+21+17+13+9+5]=2970)
5th (10): Echoing/Rapid "Create Food And Water" CL 25 (10x[25+21+17+13+9+5]=2700)
6th (10): Echoing/Rapid/Repeat/Sanctum "Create Food And Water" CL 25 (10x2x3x[25+21+17+13+9+5]=5400)
7th (10): Echoing/Rapid/Sanctum/Twin "Create Food And Water" CL 25 (10x2x3x[25+21+17+13+9+5]=5400)
8th (10): Echoing/Sanctum "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion" CL 25 (10x12x[25+21+17+13]=9120)
9th (9): Echoing/Rapid/Repeat/Sanctum/Twin "Create Food And Water" CL 25 (9x2x2x3x[25+21+17+13+9+5]=9720)

Each casting of "Create Water" takes 1 round and renders you inactive for another 3. Echoing ones are cast 7 times.

Each casting of "Create Food And Water" takes 10 rounds and renders you inactive for another 3. Echoing ones are cast 6 times.

Each casting of "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion" takes 1 round and renders you inactive for another 3. Echoing ones are cast 4 times.

Each day you get up and you start casting. Over the course of 4843 rounds (484.3 minutes, or ~8.0716 hours), you will create enough food/water for 36135 people to survive for a day, with an additional 4304 gallons of water that won't expire and can be put to other uses.

Let's see how a given community stacks up...

This chart assumes average rolls for the community population, with the casters having minimum attribute for casting their highest level spells.



Class
Total
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28


Adept
191
115
40
8
12
4

2
4
2



1

1
1

1












Aristocrat
175
115
32

16


4
4




1
1
1
1














Barbarian
124
64
32

16


4
4




1
1
1
1














Bard
156
80
40
8
12
4

2
4
2



1

1
1

1












Cleric
156
80
40
8
12
4

2
4
2



1

1
1

1












Commoner
20981
20857
64
32


16




6
2








1
2
1







Druid
156
80
40
8
12
4

2
4
2



1

1
1

1












Expert
811
687
64
32

12
4


2
4
2






1
1
1
1









Fighter
188
96
48
16
8
8

2
2
2
2


1

1


1

1










Monk
124
64
32

16


4
4




1
1
1
1














Paladin
124
64
32

16


6
2




1
2
1















Ranger
124
64
32

16


6
2




1
2
1















Rogue
188
96
48
16
8
8

2
2
2
2


1

1


1

1










Sorcerer
124
64
32

16


4
4




1
1
1
1














Warrior
1254
1146
56
24
4
12


2
6






1
2
1












Wizard
124
64
32

16


4
4




1
1
1
1















(115) Adept 1: (460) Create Water CL 1
(40) Adept 2: (160) Create Water CL 2
(8) Adept 3: (40) Create Water CL 3
(12) Adept 4: (72) Create Water CL 4
(4) Adept 5: (28) Create Water CL 5
(2) Adept 7: (18) Create Water CL 7
(4) Adept 8: (36) Create Water CL 8
(2) Adept 9: (20) Create Water CL 9
(1) Adept 13: (14) Create Water CL 13
(1) Adept 15: (16) Create Water CL 15
(1) Adept 16: (16) Create Water CL 16
(1) Adept 18: (17) Create Water CL 18
(80) Cleric 1: (320) Create Water CL 1
(40) Cleric 2: (240) Create Water CL 2
(8) Cleric 3: (64) Create Water CL 3
(12) Cleric 4: (132) Create Water CL 4
(4) Cleric 5: (44) Create Water CL 5, (4) Create Food And Water CL 5
(2) Cleric 7: (30) Create Water CL 7, (6) Create Food And Water CL 7
(4) Cleric 8: (60) Create Water CL 8, (20) Create Food And Water CL 8
(2) Cleric 9: (32) Create Water CL 9, (12) Create Food And Water CL 9
(1) Cleric 13: (18) Create Water CL 13, (15) Create Food And Water CL 13
(1) Cleric 15: (18) Create Water CL 15, (21) Create Food And Water CL 15
(1) Cleric 16: (18) Create Water CL 16, (23) Create Food And Water CL 16
(1) Cleric 18: (18) Create Water CL 18, (28) Create Food And Water CL 18
(80) Druid 1: (240) Create Water CL 1, (80) Goodberry
(40) Druid 2: (160) Create Water CL 2, (80) Goodberry
(8) Druid 3: (32) Create Water CL 3, (32) Goodberry
(12) Druid 4: (60) Create Water CL 4, (72) Goodberry
(4) Druid 5: (20) Create Water CL 5, (28) Goodberry
(2) Druid 7: (12) Create Water CL 7, (24) Goodberry
(4) Druid 8: (24) Create Water CL 8, (56) Goodberry
(2) Druid 9: (12) Create Water CL 9, (32) Goodberry
(1) Druid 13: (6) Create Water CL 13, (27) Goodberry
(1) Druid 15: (6) Create Water CL 15, (33) Goodberry
(1) Druid 16: (6) Create Water CL 16, (35) Goodberry
(1) Druid 18: (6) Create Water CL 18, (40) Goodberry
(6) Paladin 7: (6) Create Water CL 3
(2) Paladin 8: (4) Create Water CL 4
(1) Paladin 13: (4) Create Water CL 6
(2) Paladin 14: (12) Create Water CL 7
(1) Paladin 15: (7) Create Water CL 7
(1) Sorcerer 14: (3) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 14
(1) Sorcerer 15: (4) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 15
(1) Sorcerer 16: (8) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 16
(1) Wizard 13: (1) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 13
(1) Wizard 14: (2) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 14
(1) Wizard 15: (3) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 15
(1) Wizard 16: (5) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 16



Community Spells Summary:
(1020) Create Water CL 1
(560) Create Water CL 2
(142) Create Water CL 3
(268) Create Water CL 4
(92) Create Water CL 5
(4) Create Water CL 6
(79) Create Water CL 7
(120) Create Water CL 8
(64) Create Water CL 9
(38) Create Water CL 13
(40) Create Water CL 15
(40) Create Water CL 16
(41) Create Water CL 18
(4) Create Food And Water CL 5
(6) Create Food And Water CL 7
(20) Create Food And Water CL 8
(12) Create Food And Water CL 9
(15) Create Food And Water CL 13
(21) Create Food And Water CL 15
(23) Create Food And Water CL 16
(28) Create Food And Water CL 18
(539) Goodberry
(1) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 13
(5) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 14
(7) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 15
(13) Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion CL 16

The community of 25000 pulls together, and manages to create 2695 goodberries, 17366 gallons of permanent water, and enough temporary food/water to feed 9888 people. This isn't going to be enough on its own, we'd need to get people eating once every couple days. It's going to need to be used to supplement existing reserves of food. It goes a bit better if the druids and clerics have higher base Wis and Wis-boosting items, and if the druids are using Empower/Maximize on goodberry, but even then it can only do so much.

EDIT: Forgot about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, another core spell that can provide food to people. Sorcerers/Wizards get to help out a bit too! Well, the sorcerers that have this particular spell known...let's just assume the high level ones do, to make this simple. I don't feel quite as comfortable feeding people Stone To Flesh burgers, at least partially cuz it's kinda weird, and also because calorie-counting gets into the question of how viable real-world physics is in D&D-land.

[ShurikVch]

But not one for regenerators in general, which is one reason aside from style that the Tarrasque farming city was a thing.
"Nodwick" did it (https://html.scribdassets.com/p250rfips3hyyiq/images/75-e77ac9d328.jpg) earlier (November 2005 vs May 2006 - The city built around the tarrasque (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/d-dish-the-city-built-around-the-tarrasque.261519/))
The meat was so awful locals contemplated starvation as a better option...

[AvatarVecna]

Age: Adult
Race: Half-Fey Magic-Blooded Unseelie Fey Lesser Aasimar, later becomes Saint (LA Buyoff)
Class: Sorcerer 9/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 1

LA Buyoff: +2 --> 6 levels --> +1 --> 3 levels --> +0 --> Saint template --> +2 --> 6 levels --> +1 --> 3 levels --> +0

LA bought off in 18 levels

Attributes (point-buy): 12/8/16/10/8/18
All attribute buffs go to Cha. Purchase +5 tome for Cha. Get +6 enhancement items for Cha.
Attributes (lvl 20 with items): 10/12/14/10/12/48

Flaws: Any two except Pathetic Charisma

Otyugh Hole visited for Iron Will, and Skill Focus (Intimidate) thrice, with Skill Focus DCS'd into something useful both times.

Feats: Arcane Thesis (Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion), Echoing Spell, Elder Giant Magic, Energy Substitution (Fire), Eschew Materials, Invisible Spell, Iron Will, Repeat Spell, Reserves Of Strength, Sacred Vow, Sanctum Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Snowcasting, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Focus (Evocation), Twin Spell, Vow Of Chastity, Vow Of Obedience

Archmage: Spell Power

Spell Slots: 6/11/11/11/10/9/10/10/9/9

Spells are snowcast to give [cold] descriptor.

7th (10): Echoing/Energy Substitution/Invisible/Sanctum/Twin "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion" CL 29 (29x2x12x[29+25+21+17+13]=73080)
8th (9): Echoing/Energy Substitution/Invisible/Repeat/Sanctum/Twin "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion" CL 29 (29x2x2x12x[29+25+21+17+13]=146160)
9th (9): Echoing/Energy Substitution/Invisible/Repeat/Sanctum/Twin "Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion" CL 29 (29x2x2x12x[29+25+21+17+13]=146160)

Each slot takes 7 rounds to cast (including downtime before/after via Elder Giant Magic/Reserves Of Strength). Echoing spells (so all of them) are cast 5 times throughout the day.



This build spends only 980 rounds casting per day (196 rounds, then another 196 each hour thereafter), for a total of 98 minutes or ~1.63 hours spent casting. They still have all their slots lvl 6 and below, and yet they feed 365400 people. Granted, all of the meals take place in extradimensional mansions, and the food looks like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPCzjHPS--U), but it's nutritious and delicious!

[Cruiser1]

Sadly‚ not only can you not dance forever without having to do Fortitude checks‚ spelldance can't apply to the school of "invocation" (I believe it should be conjuration).
Spelldancing can apply metamagic to Conjuration school spells like Summon Food And Water. :smallsmile: What Spelldancing can't do is be applied to the schools of Necromancy and Evocation. In earlier editions of D&D, the school was called "Invocation/Evocation", which was later shortened to just "Evocation".

It's easy to Spelldance an infinite number of times for an infinite number of spells! :smallcool: Yes, you have make an increasingly high Fortitude save or else take 2 CON damage and become fatigued or exhausted, however that check is made after casting the spell. In other words, failing the save or receiving the negative effects doesn’t lose the spell or prevent the metamagic, with the only downside being that you can’t Spelldance again if exhausted. Any semi-optimized Spelldance build either just makes you immune to ability damage and fatigue/exhaustion (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum), or else just quickly heals it afterward (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?356451).


Is there a way to get infinite amounts of Turn Undead for DMM without submerging yourself in Nightsticks?
Not that I'm aware of, since Nightsticks (assuming they're ruled to stack) will quickly eat up your WBL. However, another metamagic trick is to use Incantatrix combined with Body Outside Body clones to apply metamagic for you, to avoid your own per-day limits. That's infinite metamagic assuming you can cast Body Outside Body an infinite number of times (getting infinite spells is a different issue, yet also solvable). :smallwink:

[Quertus]

However, you probably don't really need to bother with Create Food and Water, if it's only going to be a couple months. For practical reasons of the growing season, basically all ancient towns actually had a year or more of basic foodstuffs at all times.

This.


If almost everyone is dead, it sounds like a great time for looting! Surely, some of the now-dead people had food, supplies, and gold that they no longer need. Really, I'd be wasteful not to take it all for yourself.

Speaking of gold, can we just buy food from planar markets? Or book everyone says in planar B&Bs? .

And this.

So, let the ants eat from their stockpiles; let the grasshoppers starve (or, if you care about the grasshoppers, use your spells and/or planar markets). You, OTOH, are busy looting the dead. Or, well, that's what I'd be doing, you do you.


How many people do we need to save to successfully repopulate the material plane anyway?


I've heard numbers between 98 (!) and 14 000 breeding pairs required to maintain enough genetic diversity to support a healthy population increase.

Hmmm… if everyone else died off, any reason a Tainted Sorcerer Arcane Spellcaster couldn't just True Resurrection a breeding population after the gods fix the world?