Shadow Adept vs. Shadowmage

[CopperElfCleric]

The shadow adept as we all know only uses the Shadow Weave. A Shadowmage is just a regular Weave user, dipping into the mundane shadows and plucking magic from The Plane of Shadow for that spell. So which do you think is the better use of shadow magic?


For example... Aeron Morieth is a Half Elf Wizard/ Shadow Adept of no god. He is NG and yet uses the Shadow Weave of the Goddess Shar. A Canon NPC with a book written about him as well. He defies the PrC given to him. Yet... you can be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar, as long as you give up 3 Wisdom points.

Or would you just rather be a Master Phantasmist? A Grandmaster in the sub-school of Shadow from the great school of Illusion?

One requires you to subvert to the worship of Shar or suffer 3 points of Wisdom loss, and the other is just based off the regular weave and you need to devote yourself to the sub-school of Shadow.

They both seem great. which do you choose?

[Jack_Simth]

The shadow adept as we all know only uses the Shadow Weave. A Shadowmage is just a regular Weave user, dipping into the mundane shadows and plucking magic from The Plane of Shadow for that spell. So which do you think is the better use of shadow magic?


For example... Aeron Morieth is a Half Elf Wizard/ Shadow Adept of no god. He is NG and yet uses the Shadow Weave of the Goddess Shar. A Canon NPC with a book written about him as well. He defies the PrC given to him. Yet... you can be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar, as long as you give up 3 Wisdom points.

Or would you just rather be a Master Phantasmist? A Grandmaster in the sub-school of Shadow from the great school of Illusion?

One requires you to subvert to the worship of Shar or suffer 3 points of Wisdom loss, and the other is just based off the regular weave and you need to devote yourself to the sub-school of Shadow.

They both seem great. which do you choose?

The classic shadow build is the Killer Gnome (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19914066&postcount=41), which is a Wizard5 / HarperMage2 / ShadowcraftMage5 / Shadowcrafter8.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I vote option 3 with Shadowcaster.

But seriously, shadow weave magic had potential, but was locked behind too many feats and stupid fluff requirements to truly be viable.

[redking]

For example... Aeron Morieth is a Half Elf Wizard/ Shadow Adept of no god. He is NG and yet uses the Shadow Weave of the Goddess Shar. A Canon NPC with a book written about him as well. He defies the PrC given to him. Yet... you can be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar, as long as you give up 3 Wisdom points.


The Wisdom loss was in 3E and it was updated in 3.5e. In 3.5 you need a Wisdom score of 15 if you don't worship Shar, and you get no Wisdom loss.

[CopperElfCleric]

The Wisdom loss was in 3E and it was updated in 3.5e. In 3.5 you need a Wisdom score of 15 if you don't worship Shar, and you get no Wisdom loss.

Why not just be a Sorcerer who can focus on the sub-school of Shadow?

Maybe a Illusionist 15/ Shadowmage 5? Or Illusionist 10/ Shadowmage 10.

Why even use the Shadow Weave?

[CopperElfCleric]

The Wisdom loss was in 3E and it was updated in 3.5e. In 3.5 you need a Wisdom score of 15 if you don't worship Shar, and you get no Wisdom loss.

Crazy right? So what do you choose? Shadow Weave or Regular Weave? Shadow Adept or Shadowmage?

[Tzardok]

Where does it say that Shadowmages use the Weave at all? I'm pretty sure Tome of Magic is silent on that topic.

Edit: I confused Shadowmage with Shadowcaster. Unless that is what was meant, ignore this post.

[redking]

Why not just be a Sorcerer who can focus on the sub-school of Shadow?

Maybe a Illusionist 15/ Shadowmage 5? Or Illusionist 10/ Shadowmage 10.

Why even use the Shadow Weave?

In relation to Aeron Morieth, his story is told in The Shadow Stone , a novel by Richard Baker. The why of Aeron Morieth using the shadow weave is part of the narrative.

A "shadowmage" (do you mean shadowcraft mage?) isn't the same as a shadow weave user. The same word, "shadow", is used but they are very different things.

[Paragon]

Why should you choose ?

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11q_WAwPfFJoImXyDbxsqsky9dCAlfcfcRLQjEYJXEw8/edit?usp=sharing) is my latest build on the topic

[Darg]

I vote option 3 with Shadowcaster.

But seriously, shadow weave magic had potential, but was locked behind too many feats and stupid fluff requirements to truly be viable.

The fluff is cool and so is the thought behind the shadowcaster mysteries path progression, but it is terrible in practice.

My thoughts to make the shadowcaster a good caster is to make use of the spell>SLA>Su progression and open up freeform mystery selection. Basically, you can select any mystery of any level you can cast and you get another "upgrade" to your initiate and master mysteries at 19th level. At 7th level and beyond, you can give up at any time a daily use of a mystery, which downgrades it from Su or SLA to a minimum of 1 use per day in order to learn a wizard spell of the same equivalent level as a mystery with one use per day. This works like a wizard scribing a spell into their spellbook. If a 3rd level spell is learned as a mystery in this way before 13th or 19th level, it gets "upgraded" to a SLA/Su just like any other mystery (the same happens to the mystery that lost a use). However, a mystery learned in this way is unnatural to the shadoweave and arcane casters do not recieve a spellcraft penalty to identify these specific mysteries. Unlike normal mysteries, they retain any component and the original cast time of the original spell no matter if they are cast as spells, SLAs or Sus.

This would allow flexibility so that the shadowcaster can select useful mysteries and make a value judgement on whether to give up a use of a useful mystery and "downgrade" it in order to learn a possibly useful spell to increase their repertoire. While they are still "weaker" than the t1 classes, I think keeping spells learned in this way as a secondary benefit keeps the flavor of the class intact instead of just being a variation of wizard.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Anyways, the Shadow Weave Magic feat got an update in PGtF so it no longer gives a penalty to wisdom. Shadow Adept also got an update though I don't know if there are differences.

Personally I like Shadow Adept more than Shadowcraft mage simply because shadow weave magic is cool.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The fluff is cool and so is the thought behind the shadowcaster mysteries path progression, but it is terrible in practice.

My thoughts to make the shadowcaster a good caster is to make use of the spell>SLA>Su progression and open up freeform mystery selection. Basically, you can select any mystery of any level you can cast and you get another "upgrade" to your initiate and master mysteries at 19th level. At 7th level and beyond, you can give up at any time a daily use of a mystery, which downgrades it from Su or SLA to a minimum of 1 use per day in order to learn a wizard spell of the same equivalent level as a mystery with one use per day. This works like a wizard scribing a spell into their spellbook. If a 3rd level spell is learned as a mystery in this way before 13th or 19th level, it gets "upgraded" to a SLA/Su just like any other mystery (the same happens to the mystery that lost a use). However, a mystery learned in this way is unnatural to the shadoweave and arcane casters do not recieve a spellcraft penalty to identify these specific mysteries. Unlike normal mysteries, they retain any component and the original cast time of the original spell no matter if they are cast as spells, SLAs or Sus.

This would allow flexibility so that the shadowcaster can select useful mysteries and make a value judgement on whether to give up a use of a useful mystery and "downgrade" it in order to learn a possibly useful spell to increase their repertoire. While they are still "weaker" than the t1 classes, I think keeping spells learned in this way as a secondary benefit keeps the flavor of the class intact instead of just being a variation of wizard.


Ari Marmell (the guy behind the Shadowcaster class) actually released his own personal hotfix for the Shadowcaster ages ago. Here's a repost (https://www.enworld.org/threads/shadowcaster-fixes-by-mouseferatu.184955/) that he made a few years later. Here's the blow-by-blow:

Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

[Tzardok]

I personally like the shadowcaster as it is. But I think it needs more options. Luckily someone else was of the same opinion and made this thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?74519-Descent-of-Shadows-Project-Shadow-Returns)

[Darg]

Ari Marmell (the guy behind the Shadowcaster class) actually released his own personal hotfix for the Shadowcaster ages ago. Here's a repost (https://www.enworld.org/threads/shadowcaster-fixes-by-mouseferatu.184955/) that he made a few years later. Here's the blow-by-blow:

Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.


Those fixes are nice yes. The problem isn't so much how the class works, but rather the lack of support for mysteries and paths and the inflexibility of the system. To make up for inflexibility and generally lower power, warlock abilities are at will. Shadowcasters are basically stuck with inflexibility, small selection pool, and generally lower power while retaining the per day mechanic. The fixes only slightly work to alleviate this unless we homebrew new paths and mysteries, give mysteries a double function similar to how warlock invocations work, or some other player input overhaul. It's basically a band-aid for something pretty difficult to use out to the gate.

That's why I proposed using the existing systems to fix the issue of the small selection pool and alleviate the chafing caused by the inflexible progression. I also dislike rule 4. It's something that goes against every style of progression in 3.5. In any other progression system, you can always select a lower level power but still retain access to the higher level powers as that access is a function of class level, not power selection. I also don't see the reason why you can't benefit from 5 while also retaining the original way to get bonus feats. Originally, at most you get 10 bonus feats with weak mysteries. The feats are weak enough that getting 10 bonus feats aren't going to significantly increase the power of the class even with those fixes.

Edit: I'm going to stop this train before we derail the thread too far. We could discuss it further in private or another thread.

[CopperElfCleric]

Where does it say that Shadowmages use the Weave at all? I'm pretty sure Tome of Magic is silent on that topic.

Edit: I confused Shadowmage with Shadowcaster. Unless that is what was meant, ignore this post.

Deff not Shadowcaster. that is a whole new entity.I'm talking Shadowmage as in 3 to 3.5 D20 rules.

[CopperElfCleric]

In relation to Aeron Morieth, his story is told in The Shadow Stone , a novel by Richard Baker. The why of Aeron Morieth using the shadow weave is part of the narrative.

A "shadowmage" (do you mean shadowcraft mage?) isn't the same as a shadow weave user. The same word, "shadow", is used but they are very different things.

was trying to say that very thing.

[CopperElfCleric]

A Shadowmage pulls magic from the weave just like any other caster. But just that they delve into the Plane of Shadow for these specific sub-spells.
Any wizard can cast Shades at 20'th level, but a Shadowmage can do so with a much higher percentile of physical or mental harm.

Basically.... you're either using the Shadow Weave for all your spells, or you can use the regular weave and just be a master of the sub-school of Shadow and be brilliant.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Where does it say that Shadowmages use the Weave at all? I'm pretty sure Tome of Magic is silent on that topic.

Edit: I confused Shadowmage with Shadowcaster. Unless that is what was meant, ignore this post.

Actually, I looked it up because I was curious. Turns out, shadowcasters in the Realms explicitly do use the Shadow Weave (sidebar on page 110, "The Shadow Weave of Toril"). Which has some funky interactions and implications.

[CopperElfCleric]

Actually, I looked it up because I was curious. Turns out, shadowcasters in the Realms explicitly do use the Shadow Weave (sidebar on page 110, "The Shadow Weave of Toril"). Which has some funky interactions and implications.

Crazy right? It is almost as if you cannot cast shadow spells without the shadow weave in FR. Sooooo not true. Anyone can cast a shadow spell. Assassins do it regularly. Others have to work and focus on the sub school of shadow.

[KerlanRayne]

Why should you choose ?

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11q_WAwPfFJoImXyDbxsqsky9dCAlfcfcRLQjEYJXEw8/edit?usp=sharing) is my latest build on the topic
Looking at your sheet, you should know that Focused Specialist gives you 3 bonus Illusion spells per day. If it was only 2, it would be a straight downgrade.

[redking]

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11q_WAwPfFJoImXyDbxsqsky9dCAlfcfcRLQjEYJXEw8/edit?usp=sharing) is my latest build on the topic

How about Nightmare Spinner instead of Focused Specialist? You've already lost access to too many schools.



Crazy right? It is almost as if you cannot cast shadow spells without the shadow weave in FR. Sooooo not true. Anyone can cast a shadow spell. Assassins do it regularly. Others have to work and focus on the sub school of shadow.

It need to be restated that the shadow weave is nothing to do with the school of Illusion (Shadow). The shadow weave has an affinity for certain magical schools, that being Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy. But a shadow weave user is by no means a specialist in spells like shadow conjuration or a type of "shadow mage" unless that is the path they have chosen (just like a regular weave user may choose that path).

This article about shadow magic makes it clear (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_magic).


Although Shadow Weave magic was redolent of shadow magic, they were in fact unrelated

A user of shadow magic might take the shadow weave magic feat for the slight buff to Illusion spells. Any magic user might take a level of shadow adept to get the buffs against regular weave users. See the three feats gained by becoming a shadow adept.

While shadowmages and shadow weave users have been conflated in your mind, just disentangle them. Brennus, a shadowvar prince, was a diviner and displayed no shadowmage powers at all. Ditto most of the other princes.

[CopperElfCleric]

How about Nightmare Spinner instead of Focused Specialist? You've already lost access to too many schools.




It need to be restated that the shadow weave is nothing to do with the school of Illusion (Shadow). The shadow weave has an affinity for certain magical schools, that being Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy. But a shadow weave user is by no means a specialist in spells like shadow conjuration or a type of "shadow mage" unless that is the path they have chosen (just like a regular weave user may choose that path).

This article about shadow magic makes it clear (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_magic).



A user of shadow magic might take the shadow weave magic feat for the slight buff to Illusion spells. Any magic user might take a level of shadow adept to get the buffs against regular weave users. See the three feats gained by becoming a shadow adept.

While shadowmages and shadow weave users have been conflated in your mind, just disentangle them. Brennus, a shadowvar prince, was a diviner and displayed no shadowmage powers at all. Ditto most of the other princes.

The 12 princes of Shadow including Lord Shadow himself most certainly used the Shadow Weave. In the novel The Herald, Lord Shadow was taken down by Larloch and Elminster. Yet his shadow spells seemed impervious to the lay-wizard. Which would lead one to believe his magic was particular and different. Hence the Shadow-Weave.

[CopperElfCleric]

Didn't Elminster spend like a year in hell figuring this all out? A year in Avernus to realize that CRAP, these people are using The Shadow Weave. Yeah, all 12 princes of Shade Enclave used the Shadow Weave from all the sources available to us.

This is key. Most wizards in Faerun just uses the Weave to cast all their shadow spells. The 12 princes almost always used the Shadow Weave.

[redking]

The 12 princes of Shadow including Lord Shadow himself most certainly used the Shadow Weave. In the novel The Herald, Lord Shadow was taken down by Larloch and Elminster.

Egads. Lets try this again.


While shadowmages and shadow weave users have been conflated in your mind, just disentangle them. Brennus, a shadowvar prince, was a diviner and displayed no shadowmage powers at all. Ditto most of the other princes.


It need to be restated that the shadow weave is nothing to do with the school of Illusion (Shadow).


Why not just be a Sorcerer who can focus on the sub-school of Shadow?

Maybe a Illusionist 15/ Shadowmage 5? Or Illusionist 10/ Shadowmage 10.

Why even use the Shadow Weave?

The answer is that shadow weave users are not "shadowmages". These are two completely different things. The shadow weave is a source of power. Shadow magic is a particular magical technique.


Yet his shadow spells seemed impervious to the lay-wizard. Which would lead one to believe his magic was particular and different. Hence the Shadow-Weave.

Yes. Those differences are covered in the first level of the shadow adept prestige class.


A user of shadow magic might take the shadow weave magic feat for the slight buff to Illusion spells. Any magic user might take a level of shadow adept to get the buffs against regular weave users. See the three feats gained by becoming a shadow adept.

The princes of shade use the shadow weave, but they are not "shadowmages".

[CopperElfCleric]

Egads. Lets try this again.







The answer is that shadow weave users are not "shadowmages". These are two completely different things. The shadow weave is a source of power. Shadow magic is a particular magical technique.



Yes. Those differences are covered in the first level of the shadow adept prestige class.



The princes of shade use the shadow weave, but they are not "shadowmages".

No they are not. You're correct. A Shadowmage is weave based. A Shadow Adept isn't.

A level 10 Sorcerer/ Shadow Adept 10 will be powerful at CR 20, but a Sorcerer 10/ Shadowmage 10 will be just as powerful.

Or are we going Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10? Or maybe you're a Figment wizard or just a straight up Illusionist.

The details hold the devils. You can be a 20th level Illusionist and be a jack of all trades on illusion spells of all sub-schools.

Or you can focus on a thing or two and be a grandmaster.

[redking]

No they are not. You're correct. A Shadowmage is weave based. A Shadow Adept isn't.

A level 10 Sorcerer/ Shadow Adept 10 will be powerful at CR 20, but a Sorcerer 10/ Shadowmage 10 will be just as powerful.

Or are we going Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10? Or maybe you're a Figment wizard or just a straight up Illusionist.

The details hold the devils. You can be a 20th level Illusionist and be a jack of all trades on illusion spells of all sub-schools.

Or you can focus on a thing or two and be a grandmaster.

I don't know of any prestige classes called 'shadowmage' or 'phantasmist'. I use shadowmage as a catch-all for someone that focuses on the Illusion (Shadow) subschool. There is no reason that a shadow adept cannot also be a shadowmage. Shadow magic is just magical technique, independent of the source of power (weave or shadow weave).

If you want to specialize in something, sorcerer as the base class is a poor choice.

[CopperElfCleric]

I don't know of any prestige classes called 'shadowmage' or 'phantasmist'. I use shadowmage as a catch-all for someone that focuses on the Illusion (Shadow) subschool. There is no reason that a shadow adept cannot also be a shadowmage. Shadow magic is just magical technique, independent of the source of power (weave or shadow weave).

If you want to specialize in something, sorcerer as the base class is a poor choice.

Well wizard is a poor choice as far as spell casters go. A Sorcerer loses spells but can cast spells like a mofo without having to lose them.spells, but pretty damn close.

[CopperElfCleric]

I don't know of any prestige classes called 'shadowmage' or 'phantasmist'. I use shadowmage as a catch-all for someone that focuses on the Illusion (Shadow) subschool. There is no reason that a shadow adept cannot also be a shadowmage. Shadow magic is just magical technique, independent of the source of power (weave or shadow weave).

If you want to specialize in something, sorcerer as the base class is a poor choice.

A Phantasmist is just a Illusionist that has a focus on Phantasmal subschools.

Same with a Shadowmage.

[redking]

A Phantasmist is just a Illusionist that has a focus on Phantasmal subschools.

Same with a Shadowmage.

We are talking at cross purposes. I struggle to understand what is meant by this.


A level 10 Sorcerer/ Shadow Adept 10 will be powerful at CR 20, but a Sorcerer 10/ Shadowmage 10 will be just as powerful.

Or are we going Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10? Or maybe you're a Figment wizard or just a straight up Illusionist.

Sorcerer/ Shadow Adept 10 a is thing. Sorcerer 10/Shadowmage 10 and Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10 are not a thing. If you are talking about homebrew prestige classes, just tell me that is the case and put me out of my misery :smallmad:

[Tzardok]

We are talking at cross purposes. I struggle to understand what is meant by this.



Sorcerer/ Shadow Adept 10 a is thing. Sorcerer 10/Shadowmage 10 and Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10 are not a thing. If you are talking about homebrew prestige classes, just tell me that is the case and put me out of my misery :smallmad:

If I understand it correctly, CopperElfCleric calls a wizard [specialization: illusion] who mostly uses Illusion (Phantasm) spells a phantasmist and just assumes that everybody else knows what he's talking about.

He propably has similiar names for "specialists" in other subschools: shadowmage, glamourist, patternist, etc.

[LordofBones]

How is a sorcerer/wizard multiclass without Ultimate Magus in any way just as powerful as a sorcerer with a full casting advancement prestige class?

[Buufreak]

How is a sorcerer/wizard multiclass without Ultimate Magus in any way just as powerful as a sorcerer with a full casting advancement prestige class?

In short, it's not. But I don't think that is what he is trying to say? If it is that he is saying sorcerer 10/ (insert overspecialized wizard here) 10, then he is simply wrong.

[LordofBones]

According to CEC, a shadowmage is an illusionist specialized in shadow descriptor spells.

[CopperElfCleric]

We are talking at cross purposes. I struggle to understand what is meant by this.



Sorcerer/ Shadow Adept 10 a is thing. Sorcerer 10/Shadowmage 10 and Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10 are not a thing. If you are talking about homebrew prestige classes, just tell me that is the case and put me out of my misery :smallmad:

In what game is that not a thing? Well yes... homebrew is canon... what is the difference when any yahoo with clout can create an article in dragon magazine?

What makes an author published in DM any better than what you or I have spent time on?

My PrC's are no better or less than theirs. Are yours? Again, this is basic... common. From 1ED to 5ED... D&D is not built to be black and white.

What skilled DM will say no to a CN Moon elf Assassin? It fits the D&D standards, doesn't break the rules and adds to PC development.

{scrubbed}

[noce]

My PrC's are no better or less than theirs.

I think that what he's trying to say is that published PrCs can be accessed by everyone that owns the book, so when someone talks about a Shadowcraft Mage everyone else can understand what he's saying.
On the other hand, saying a Shadowmage is fantastic cannot be understood by most readers, since we don't even know if you intend a Specialist Wizard focusing on the Shadow sub-school, a homebrew PrC, or just any caster focusing on Shadow sub-school.

It certainly is fantastic to play a shadow-themed caster, but we cannot say much more than that without knowing about your PrC.

[Buufreak]

Noce has the right of it. You can house rule and homebrew anything you want. But when you have no point of reference for said things, us as readers have no idea what you are talking about and have to default to information we are privy to, such as the books in print that we own or the srd.

[redking]

In what game is that not a thing? Well yes... homebrew is canon... what is the difference when any yahoo with clout can create an article in dragon magazine?

What makes an author published in DM any better than what you or I have spent time on?


I'm not impunging your homebrew prestige classes. I'm saying that I don't know what they are, what they can do, or what they offer in comparison to the shadow adept.

In your original post you ask people if they'd choose shadow adept, which they know or can find out about with a google search, or your homebrew shadowmage which no amount of searching can unearth.

Perhaps if you'd post your shadowmage and phantasmist then people would have a basis on which to judge and answer your question.

[CopperElfCleric]

I don't know of any prestige classes called 'shadowmage' or 'phantasmist'. I use shadowmage as a catch-all for someone that focuses on the Illusion (Shadow) subschool. There is no reason that a shadow adept cannot also be a shadowmage. Shadow magic is just magical technique, independent of the source of power (weave or shadow weave).

If you want to specialize in something, sorcerer as the base class is a poor choice.

The Shadowmage first appeared in 2ED D&D. I made a 3.5 version for our personal gaming group. But Shadowmage is a real thing that is canon in D&D 2ED.

[CopperElfCleric]

In short, it's not. But I don't think that is what he is trying to say? If it is that he is saying sorcerer 10/ (insert overspecialized wizard here) 10, then he is simply wrong.

My typo... My bad. Buufreak is correct.

I've never seen any reason to drop 2 CORE arcane spellcasting classes on a PC, unless said arcane spells come from a PrC.

So a Sorcerer 10/ Phantasmist 10 is just a 20'th level arcane caster that specializes in phantasms.

Same with a Sorcerer 10/ Shadowmage 10.

In 1ED Advanced D&D, and 2ED you had the Illusionist. A separate core class from a "Magic-User". Wizards and Sorcerers didn't exist back then.

If it doesn't sound CORE, or Forgotten Realms specific, then my gaming group created it as a home-brew.

Shadowmage is canon 2ED, Phantasmist is just a home-brew specialist not unlike the Shadowmage.

I once remember a game back in 1994, where a Shadowmage at level 18 destroyed everything with sheer shadow spells.

The spells Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, along with their Greater counterparts are sometimes even better than any Conjuration or Evocation spell by itself.

[CopperElfCleric]

I'm not impunging your homebrew prestige classes. I'm saying that I don't know what they are, what they can do, or what they offer in comparison to the shadow adept.

In your original post you ask people if they'd choose shadow adept, which they know or can find out about with a google search, or your homebrew shadowmage which no amount of searching can unearth.

Perhaps if you'd post your shadowmage and phantasmist then people would have a basis on which to judge and answer your question.

The Shadowmage:

Some spellcasters who discover the existence of the Plane of Shadow learn how to tap directly into its power using the weave, altering their magic slowly to take advantage of its effects. Others are more reckless, hurling themselves into the mysteries of shadow magic immediately to acquire all the gifts available to the casual student and discover secrets unavailable to all but the most dedicated. These latter spellcasters are the shadowmages, who make great sacrifices with respect to some aspects of the Art in order to reap greater benefits elsewhere.

Most shadowmages were previously sorcerers or wizards, and these are the ones who stand to gain the greatest power from adopting this path. Any spellcaster can tap the Plane of Shadow through the Weave, however, and a few bards and beguilers have also been known to make this choice.

Requirements
To qualify to become a Shadowmage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

Alignment: Any non-good.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks.
Feats: Spell focus (Illusion, Enchantment or Necromancy)
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Class Skills:
The shadowmage's class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (all skills taken individually), Profession, and SpellCraft.

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All the following are Class Features of the shadow adept prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shadowmages gain no proficiency with any weapon, armor, or shield. Armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble, and double the normal armor check penalty applies to Swim checks.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new shadowmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class granted him access to 3rd-level spells before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. This essentially means that he adds the level of shadowmage to the level of whatever other spellcasting class granted him access to 3rd-level spells, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one spellcasting class that granted access to 3rd-level spells before he became a shadowmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of shadowmage for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Advanced Shadow Magic: Starting at 1st level, from now on, your spells tap the Plane of Shadow directly through the Weave.

The saving throw for every spell you cast from the schools of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy increases by +2. You also get a +2 bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance with spells from these schools.

Shadow Magic proves less than optimal for effects involving energy or matter. Your effective caster level for spells you cast from the schools of evocation or transmutation (except spells with the shadow or darkness descriptor) is reduced by one.

Shadow Mastery (Ex): At 1st level a shadowmage automatically adds two shadow spells to his spellbook every time he gains a level that grants access to a new spell level. Furthermore, any time the shadowmage learns a new shadow spell, he treats that spell as if he had mastered it with the Spell Mastery feat.

Darkvision (Ex): At 2nd level, a shadowmage can see in the dark as though he were permanently affected by a darkvision spell. If the shadowmage already has darkvision, then its range is doubled..

Shadow Defense (Ex): At 3rd level, a shadowmage gains resistance to the kinds of spells that are favored by Shadow Magic. He gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells from the schools of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy, as well as spells with the shadow or darkness descriptor.

Afraid of the Shadows:(Sp) At 4'th level the Shadowmage may draw forth a twisted reflection of your foe from the Plane of Shadow. The image unerringly touches the subject, causing Wisdom damage equal to 1d6 points +1 point per four caster levels (maximum +5). A Will saving throw halves the Wisdom damage. This ability takes one standard action.

Deadly Shade (Sp): At 5th level the shadowmage creates tendrils of darkness that flow from the ground like smoke, filling the area with writhing, shifting darkness. The area of deadly shade is filled with shadowy illumination, as per darkness. In addition, each time you use this SLA you decide if you wish the spell to deal or absorb damage.

If you choose to deal damage, anyone within the area who suffers hit point damage from any source must make a Fortitude save. Failure indicates that the subject gains a negative level. Success prevents the negative level, but if the individual is damaged again within the area, he must attempt a new save. These negative levels fade in 1 hour per caster level, and they never cause permanent level loss.

If you choose instead to have the deadly shade absorb damage, all creatures within the area gain DR 4/- and energy resistance 4 against all energy types. (This stacks with other forms of resistance or other sources that grant DR X/-.) This SLA takes a standard action and has a range of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, an area of 30-ft.-radius emanation, and lasts 1 round/level. A Fort save negates and the target can use its SR if it has any.

Clinging Darkness {Sp): At 6th level you cause shadows to ooze out of the floors, the walls, even the air, filling the area with wisps of writhing blackness. Creatures within the area become coated in these clinging shadows.

Any creature within the area affected by this SLA, or that enters the area on its turn, must make a Reflex save or become immobilized.

Each round on its turn, an immobilized subject can attempt a new saving throw to end the condition. Because of the subject’s condition, this save is a full-round action (but does not provoke attacks of opportunity). If an immobilized subject succeeds on its save, it still needs to save again at the start of its next turn in order to avoid succumbing to the darkness again. This SLA takes a standard action and has a range of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, an area of 20-ft.-radius emanation, and lasts 1 round/level. A Ref save negates and the target can use its SR if it has any.

Superior Darkvision (Su): At 7th level, a shadowmage can see through any form of normal or magical darkness without hindrance.

Tomb of Night (Sp): At 8th level the shadowmage can solidify extraplanar shadow, creating a solid prison of darkness. This SLA immobilizes the subject in a prison of shadowstuff. This prison blocks both line of effect and line of sight to the creature inside it, and is impenetrable from the outside. The creature inside the prison takes 3d6 points of cold damage at the beginning of each round that it remains inside the prison.

Once each round as a standard action, a creature caught in the prison can attempt a Fortitude saving throw against the spell’s original DC to break out of the prison. Success means that the creature can move out of the prison, and the prison fades to nothingness. Failure means that the creature gains one negative level. This SLA takes a standard action and has a range of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, it can affect one Huge or smaller creature and lasts 1 round/level. A Fort save negates and the target can use its SR if it has any.

Ephemeral Storm (Su): At 9th level, anytime the shadowmage is reduced to 0 hitpoints the air explodes with shadowy tendrils that slice like blades. Targets of ephemeral storm must make a Fortitude save or die. Those who succeed take 5d6 points of damage. If the targets fail their save and die, then the shadowmage absorbs all targets remaining hitpoints at the time of their death until she reaches her full max hitpoints. If the targets succeed at a Fortitude save, then the shadowmage heals the 5d6 points of damage instead. This supernatural ability has a range of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels centered on the shadowmage, and targets one living creature/2 levels, no two of which are more than 20 ft. apart. A Fort save grants partial and the target can use its SR if it has any.

Shadow Double (Su): Once per day, a 10th-level shadowmage can use a standard action to create a double of himself woven from shadowstuff. The double has the ability scores, base AC, hit points, saves, and attack bonuses of its creator, but no equipment. (Any apparent clothing or equipment is nonfunctional.) Since it can use anything its creator can, the double can attack the creator's enemies if given a weapon or item with which to do so. Alternatively, it can function as the target of a project image spell, duplicating the creator's actions and functioning as the origin of the creator's spells when it is within his direct line of sight. Mentally commanding the double is a free action. Using it as the originator of a spell counts as an action of the sort needed to cast the spell for both the creator and the double. Causing either the creator or the double to leave the plane they share dismisses the double.

The double lasts 1 round per caster level. The death of the double does not affect the shadowmage or vice versa. If its creator dies, the shadow double still lasts until its duration expires.


Shadowmage Hit Dice: d4
CL BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Advanced shadow magic +1 level of existing spellcasting class
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Darkvision +1 level of existing spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Shadow defense +2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Afraid of the shadows +1 level of existing spellcasting class
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Deadly Shade +1 level of existing spellcasting class
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Clinging darkness +1 level of existing spellcasting class
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Superior darkvision +1 level of existing spellcasting class
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Tomb of night +1 level of existing spellcasting class
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Ephemeral storm +1 level of existing spellcasting class
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Shadow double +1 level of existing spellcasting class

[CopperElfCleric]

If I understand it correctly, CopperElfCleric calls a wizard [specialization: illusion] who mostly uses Illusion (Phantasm) spells a phantasmist and just assumes that everybody else knows what he's talking about.

He propably has similiar names for "specialists" in other subschools: shadowmage, glamourist, patternist, etc.

Yes, yes. Absolutely. Spot on. Just like the Beguiler, the enchanter, The elementalist. Same concept.

[redking]

May as well post all your homebrew prestige classes in a central thread so people know what you are talking about when you reference them.

[CopperElfCleric]

May as well post all your homebrew prestige classes in a central thread so people know what you are talking about when you reference them.

My bad. thought it was obvious.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy