The beauty of assassin spells.

[CopperElfCleric]

Say your a Rogue 5/ Assassin 10 gold elf male . At only 15 PC levels you do have some sweet spells. Are you a dagger guy? Tossing and throwing daggers like it's the end of the world. Or are you a mele guy? Rapiers clashing against long swords? A Cutles vs. a scimitar.

As a rogue 10/ assassin 10.... I assume you're comfortable with simple spells that allow you to murder. And then get away with it undetected or seen. at this point I assume you're a Grandmaster of stealth and skills. Grandmaster of thieves, or Grandmaster of spell death. As a CR 20 PC or NPC it really can thwart your game.

Some assassin spells are amazing when used right.

What say you?

[Analytica]

i think Assassin is my favourite overlooked spellcasting class, though more for flavor than anything. Would love a prestige class BTW that added the Assassin list to another arcane list as its capstone! Like a casting-progressing Assassin arcane trickster.

[CopperElfCleric]

i think Assassin is my favourite overlooked spellcasting class, though more for flavor than anything. Would love a prestige class BTW that added the Assassin list to another arcane list as its capstone! Like a casting-progressing Assassin arcane trickster.

Make your own. I did. I came up with a PrC called the "Quiet-Knife". A combination of a dagger tossing spell caster of death.

The Quietknife

From the darkest streets of Skullport, to the back alleys of Calimport. From the throne rooms of kings, to the dive bars of Starmantle. No matter what part of Faerun you mention, the bards sing tales of specialized elven assassins known as Quietknives. Little is known about the silent killers, but some bards say that they only appear to take vengeance and revenge upon those who have committed a ghastly act or crime against the elven people.

A Quietknife must be stealthy, quick, and skilled at both ranged and melee combat. The quickest path to this prestige class is to begin with one or two levels of rogue in order to gain the necessary skills and sneak attack ability, and then switch to fighter or ranger to improve overall combat ability (in the form of base attack bonus) and learn the necessary feats.

A few Quietknives acquire some arcane spellcasting in the form of a couple of levels of sorcerer or wizard, because spells such as invisibility or deep slumber can make the deadly work of the Quietknife much easier. A Quietknife of this sort often begins with three or four levels of rogue, then gains five or six levels in an arcane spellcasting class. However, qualifying for the Quietknife class is much easier with the bonus feats offered by either the fighter or ranger class.

Requirements
To qualify to become a Quietknife, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

Race: Elf or Half elf
Skills: Balance 3 ranks, Climb 3 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Jump 3 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks, Tumble 3 ranks
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Special: Sneak attack +3d6.

Class Skills
The Quietknife's class skills are Balance, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
As you advance in level, you become better at switching from melee combat to ranged combat in the blink of an eye. You become a mobile and infuriating opponent who can launch a devastating barrage of sneak attacks.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Rapid Daggers: At 1'st level, whenever you are throwing knives and daggers, you are treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if you do not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

Silent Daggers(Su): At 1'st level, every dagger and knife you throw are treated as if they have a Silence spell placed on them. Most Quietknives, true to their names, throw daggers in this way.

Sneak Attack (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage when you are flanking an opponent or at any time when the target would be denied its Dexterity bonus. This extra damage applies to ranged attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. At 5th level the extra damage increases to 2d6, and at 8th level it increases to 3d6. See the rogue class feature.

Sneaky Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, just before making a ranged attack, a Quietknife with this ability can use a move action to make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by her target's Spot check. If she wins the opposed check, her opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack.

Returning Daggers (Su): Also at 3rd level, you become so skilled with thrown weapons that you can cause four knives a day to gain the returning special ability. When you make a ranged attack with a returning dagger, you can move after the attack, and the weapon will still return to you as long as line of sight between you and the weapon exists at the beginning of your next turn.

Weak Spot (Ex): A Quietknife gains this ability only after reaching 4'th level. When using a thrown weapon against a target, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the quietknife adds her Dexterity bonus for the damage instead of her strength bonus.

Snatch Arrows: A Quietknife gains the benefit of the Snatch Arrows feat at 4th level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Fast Movement (Ex): At 6th level, you have mastered the art of unusually swift movement. Your land speed is faster than the norm for elves by 10 feet. This benefit applies only when you are wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying your speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Palm Throw (Ex): At 6'th level when using thrown daggers, a Quietknife with this ability may throw two of each weapon with a single attack roll. Damage for each weapon is resolved separately, and the Quietknife applies her Dexterity bonus to either damage roll.

Vengeful Strike (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a standard action you can execute a single vengeful strike in place of sneak attack. You coldly whisper the name of your intended victim to your weapon, and then you make a single melee or ranged attack. You gain a +2 morale bonus on the attack roll. If you hit, your foe must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your class level + your Dex modifier) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds, and bestowed with 1d4 negative levels.

You must know the victim's name in order to make a vengeful strike; "that orc over there" is not good enough. Creatures without names (most creatures of Intelligence 2 or lower) are not subject to a vengeful strike. You usually use this ability against a person or creature you know to have harmed elves. You can use this ability once per day at 7th level and three times per day at 10th level.

Superior Returning Daggers (Ex): When you reach 7th level, your returning daggers ability is extended. You can use two returning daggers for two attacks each in a single round, or you can use one returning dagger for three attacks in the same round, as long as your target is no farther away than one range increment. (If your target is farther away than one range increment, you can still use your superior returning dagger ability, but only for a single attack each turn.)

Dagger of death: At 9'th level, a Quietknife can create a dagger of death that forces the target, if damaged by the dagger’s attack, to make a DC 25 +Dex Mod, Fortitude save or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an dagger of death, and the dagger only functions for the Quietknife who created it. The dagger of death lasts no longer than one year, and the Quietknife can only have one such dagger in existence at a time. This dagger may be used for both melee and ranged attacks.

Critical Throw (Ex): At 9'th level, a Quietknife gains the Improved Critical feat for any thrown weapon without meeting the prerequisites.

Hail of daggers (Ex): At 10'th level, in lieu of her regular attacks, once per day a Quietknife can throw a dagger at each and every target within range, to a maximum of two targets for every level of this class she has earned. Each attack uses the Quietknifes primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single dagger.


Quietknife Hit Die: d8
CL BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Rapid Daggers, silent daggers
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Sneak attack +1d6
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Sneaky shot, returning daggers
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Weak spot, Snatch arrows
5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +2d6
6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Fast movement, palm throw
7th +7 +2 +5 +2 Vengeful strike 1/day, superior returning daggers
8th +8 +2 +6 +2 Sneak attack +3d6
9th +9 +3 +6 +3 Critical throw, dagger of death
10th +10 +3 +7 +3 Vengeful strike 3/day, hail of daggers

[Anthrowhale]

Dragonblood Spell-Pact should allow the Assassin to swap spells with a Sorcerer.

[Maat Mons]

I really feel that Assassin shouldn't have had an Evil alignment as a prerequisite.

I also feel that +1 to saves vs. poison isn't an exciting enough class feature to appear on the table 5 times... or even once. I'd have probably given them Poison Immunity, the ability to apply poison as a swift action, and some sort of real capstone to fill in the spots on the table that would otherwise have been empty if it weren't for the situational +1 bonuses.



Overall, my favorite sneaky spellcaster class is Unseen Seer.

[CopperElfCleric]

I really feel that Assassin shouldn't have had an Evil alignment as a prerequisite.

I also feel that +1 to saves vs. poison isn't an exciting enough class feature to appear on the table 5 times... or even once. I'd have probably given them Poison Immunity, the ability to apply poison as a swift action, and some sort of real capstone to fill in the spots on the table that would otherwise have been empty if it weren't for the situational +1 bonuses.



Overall, my favorite sneaky spellcaster class is Unseen Seer.

I agree 100%. I've played assassins that were CN and CG. It should not be a evil alignment PrC. Thankfully I had a DM that allowed this to happen. Poison.... yeah, a terrible 5 time loser in a PrC. I get it though. Assassins use poison to get crap done. Therefore you have an immunity to it at higher levels. But still, it's a crappy ability and most likely never used in a game. What Assassin PC did you ever have that said "Hey wait... let me use my poison skills and abilities to turn the tides of events.? NONE! lol.

[CopperElfCleric]

All we have as far as in depth assassin feelings are from R.A. Salvatores Artemis Entreri. Who never employs poison in any novel. Like ever. He is a truly melee NPC from Memnon that hates the world and hates himself. He has changed over the years from a N killer, to a more comnplex CN NPC in the books.

Unlike my assassins I've played which were debauching extroverts that would kill you in public using a poisoned dagger at a dinner table.Entreri is a melee killing machine meant to hurt you before death by blade.

[Rebel7284]

Assassin looks like a fun class, but with Arcane Trickster being core and Unseen Seer being an upgrade with good class features, it becomes difficult to justify Rogue 10/Assassin 10 sort of builds for skillful characters with a dash of magic from a power perspective.

With that said, I am looking forward to seeing folks here make suggestions that make specific Assassin builds less mediocre mechanically.

[CopperElfCleric]

Assassin looks like a fun class, but with Arcane Trickster being core and Unseen Seer being an upgrade with good class features, it becomes difficult to justify Rogue 10/Assassin 10 sort of builds for skillful characters with a dash of magic from a power perspective.

With that said, I am looking forward to seeing folks here make suggestions that make specific Assassin builds less mediocre mechanically.

The assassin PrC has just enough spells to complete any death you can envision. Maybe a Rogue 5/ Assassin 10/ Mage killer 5.
Or a Rogue 5/ Assassin 10/ Scout 5 would be a movement grandmaster.

Or even a Beguiler 10/ Assassin 10 would be a very nasty NPC for your party to encounter. Imagine, deception, trickery and death. That is that build inherently.

A rogue 19/ Cleric 1 with the Sacred Outlaw feat can Destroy elder undead. Lords of the undead will fall to that PC.

Likewise... a Cleric 17/ Rogue 3 with the Sacred Outlaw feat can sneak attack a demi-god and get away with it.

[LordofBones]

I'm trying to understand why a beguiler would want to give up 9th level spells for assassin casting.

[Particle_Man]

I agree 100%. I've played assassins that were CN and CG. It should not be a evil alignment PrC. Thankfully I had a DM that allowed this to happen. Poison.... yeah, a terrible 5 time loser in a PrC. I get it though. Assassins use poison to get crap done. Therefore you have an immunity to it at higher levels. But still, it's a crappy ability and most likely never used in a game. What Assassin PC did you ever have that said "Hey wait... let me use my poison skills and abilities to turn the tides of events.? NONE! lol.

I think there was a wotc web article that had a variant assassin with the alignment as non-lawful.

Edit: I was wrong it was non-chaotic. And technically an April Fool’s article. Named: The Avenger

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

Interesting that it specifically mentions that paladin might be an entry class!

[Jack_Simth]

I really feel that Assassin shouldn't have had an Evil alignment as a prerequisite.The Evil alignment is a flavor thing. The name of the class? Yeah, that's a profession. The PrC, flavor-wise, is for a murderer for hire. That's going to be a very evil sort of person. Are there non-evil uses for the mechanical package? Absolutely. But the intended flavor of the class? An evil alignment requirement fits perfectly.

[Gnaeus]

The assassin PrC has just enough spells to complete any death you can envision. Maybe a Rogue 5/ Assassin 10/ Mage killer 5..

The problem with the assassin spells is that there isn’t much reason to take assassin levels to get them. Invisibility and alter self are decent. But by the time you are an ECL 8 assassin, so you get to cast one per day, you could have 50 charge wands of both for 1/3 WBL. Any good skill monkey, like the beguiler mentioned, will be using spells from the assassin list. But there are way cheaper ways than multiple class levels for a few uses a day.

[Maat Mons]

The word "assassin" doesn't specifically denote someone who kills for money. The (very minimal) flavor text of the class doesn't say you have to be a hired killer either. The requirements of the class are the only thing pigeonholing you into that one, very specific type of assassin.

The function of classes in a game is to provide tools that players can use to build whatever characters they can imagine. It's terrible design to artificially restrict players to a few specific "approved" character concepts.

It's not that don't see what they were trying to do. It's that what they were trying to do is the exact opposite of what they should have been trying to do.

[RNightstalker]

It's not that don't see what they were trying to do. It's that what they were trying to do is the exact opposite of what they should have been trying to do.

Would you mind expanding on that last part? What should they have been trying to do?

[ShurikVch]

i think Assassin is my favourite overlooked spellcasting class, though more for flavor than anything. Would love a prestige class BTW that added the Assassin list to another arcane list as its capstone! Like a casting-progressing Assassin arcane trickster.
Note: Eldritch Master PrC (Dragon #280) able to add any spell list to their spell list - it's available at 4th level, and one more time - at 8th.
But, by taking the class, you will lose CL progression: it gives +1 at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels. At the other levels - only bonus Spells Known



Assassin looks like a fun class, but with Arcane Trickster being core and Unseen Seer being an upgrade with good class features, it becomes difficult to justify Rogue 10/Assassin 10 sort of builds for skillful characters with a dash of magic from a power perspective.

With that said, I am looking forward to seeing folks here make suggestions that make specific Assassin builds less mediocre mechanically.
It's of limited usefulness, but Soulreaver PrC (Dragon #297) extends Assassin's spell list up to 9th-level spells (but not spell slots - you would need Improved Spell Capacity for that)
Also, gets Double Death 1 per 10 levels (Assassin's DA required not 1, but 2 saves to survive), Vampiric Death (on kill, get +6 Str and +6d6 temp. hp for a hour), and Sudden Death 1 per 10 levels (DA without preparation, as a full round action)

[Anthrowhale]

Rogue 3/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Assassin 8/Maho-Tsukai 2/Abjurant Champion 5 would have sneak attack+7d6, access to 8th level spells, BAB+16, Fort+6, Refl+11, Will+9, and caster level 16.

[bekeleven]

I think the Slayer of Domiel from BoED was supposed to be the "Good Assassin" analog.

[Saintheart]

i think Assassin is my favourite overlooked spellcasting class, though more for flavor than anything. Would love a prestige class BTW that added the Assassin list to another arcane list as its capstone! Like a casting-progressing Assassin arcane trickster.

This can be done if you're willing to consider third party. Shadow Mage from Green Ronin Publishing's Assassin's Handbook. From about fifth level in an arcane-casting class, you add the Assassin list to your list. The PrC then gives you full casting, +6 to Hide, spell-like darkvision, deeper darkness, shadow walk, teleport without error, plane shift. Oh, and a new familiar … with the ghost template and the manifestation and corrupting touch special attacks. The book also has several more Assassin spells introduced in it which range from interesting to ROFLMAO. I was pretty hard on it in review because its Assassin base class is atrocious and they failed hard on creating metamagic-ish poison feats, but Shadow Mage is nice.

[Darg]

I really feel that Assassin shouldn't have had an Evil alignment as a prerequisite.

I also feel that +1 to saves vs. poison isn't an exciting enough class feature to appear on the table 5 times... or even once. I'd have probably given them Poison Immunity, the ability to apply poison as a swift action, and some sort of real capstone to fill in the spots on the table that would otherwise have been empty if it weren't for the situational +1 bonuses.



Overall, my favorite sneaky spellcaster class is Unseen Seer.

To be fair the DMG has this to say on the matter:


The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself.

The ones presented in the DMG are examples so not tailoring PRCs for the campaign is going against the spirit of intention of the devs. If your player is playing a lawful good assassin under the employ of the state, it would seem really weird not to let the player have a tailored assassin class that removes evil factors before they have a chance to destabilize or harm the state.

[Jack_Simth]

The word "assassin" doesn't specifically denote someone who kills for money. The (very minimal) flavor text of the class doesn't say you have to be a hired killer either. The requirements of the class are the only thing pigeonholing you into that one, very specific type of assassin.

The function of classes in a game is to provide tools that players can use to build whatever characters they can imagine. It's terrible design to artificially restrict players to a few specific "approved" character concepts.

It's not that don't see what they were trying to do. It's that what they were trying to do is the exact opposite of what they should have been trying to do.

Well, Merriam-webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assassin) put their definition online for free. Def 1 is a very historical definition that doesn't see much use. Def 2:

a person who commits murder
especially : one who murders a politically important person either for money or from fanatical adherence to a cause
So... yeah. Pretty evil.

[Darg]

{scrubbed} I think a not good requirement would be more appropriate. A neutral character wouldn't shy away from removing bad actors through unscrupulous means either.

I haven't dug too much in what D&D truly considers good and evil, but an assassin requiring being evil only appears to be taking the stance that "the means never justify the result."

[Particle_Man]

Interestingly the original Dungeons and Dragons assassin was Neutral. This was wayyyy back before even 1st edition. No spell list for them back then, alas.

[Darg]

Interestingly the original Dungeons and Dragons assassin was Neutral. This was wayyyy back before even 1st edition. No spell list for them back then, alas.

I'm pretty sure in AD&D, thief had a subclass called assassin. I'm not sure it had an alignment restriction. Baldur's Gate 2 had adapted it without modifying the alignment of the base class.

[Gnaeus]

[QUOTE=Darg;25179028]{scrubbed}/QUOTE]

{scrubbed}

[Particle_Man]

I'm pretty sure in AD&D, thief had a subclass called assassin. I'm not sure it had an alignment restriction. Baldur's Gate 2 had adapted it without modifying the alignment of the base class.

By AD&D assassins were "evil only" but before that, in OD&D, they were neutral.

[Rebel7284]

Note: Eldritch Master PrC (Dragon #280) able to add any spell list to their spell list - it's available at 4th level, and one more time - at 8th.
But, by taking the class, you will lose CL progression: it gives +1 at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels. At the other levels - only bonus Spells Known

I actually had a thread on the topic of this class a while ago with a bunch of builds! https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?323862-Brainstorming-Eldrich-Master



It's of limited usefulness, but Soulreaver PrC (Dragon #297) extends Assassin's spell list up to 9th-level spells (but not spell slots - you would need Improved Spell Capacity for that)
Also, gets Double Death 1 per 10 levels (Assassin's DA required not 1, but 2 saves to survive), Vampiric Death (on kill, get +6 Str and +6d6 temp. hp for a hour), and Sudden Death 1 per 10 levels (DA without preparation, as a full round action)

Nice find! Looks like a lot of fun and very thematic, if a bit underwhelming for actual Epic play.

[Maat Mons]

"one who murders a politically important person either for money or from fanatical adherence to a cause"

Right in there, it says one of the possible motivations is fanatical adherence to a cause. You can assassinate an evil dictator because you're firmly dedicated to the cause of Good.

[RexDart]

I have it on good authority that the killing of humans and other intelligent life for the purpose of profit is basically held to be the antithesis of weal.

[Particle_Man]

This actually points out how old the alignment conflicts get. In OD&D assassins are neutral, not evil. Maybe that is the idea that the diagonal alignments are active proponents of their ethos whereas assassins are more “whatever, just pay me” mercenaries.

But yes, in 1st edition killing people for money has been moved to evil.

In third edition, the assassin class is evil but there are non-evil “almost assassins”, many of which are listed above. It might depend on whether the killing is merely for money, or in the service of a Greater Cause?

[gorfnab]

You can somewhat combine Shadowcaster and Assassin into an interesting arrangement.

Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 3/ Noctumancer 7/ Arcane Trickster (advancing Shadowcaster) 5 - requires Whisper Gnome or Spell Hand feat for Mage Hand prereq

Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 3/ Noctumancer 2/ Arcane Trickster (advancing Shadowcaster) 10 - requires Whisper Gnome or Spell Hand feat for Mage Hand prereq


Another prestige class that works very well with Assassin is Telflammar Shadowlord. A simple build setup for this would just be Rogue 5/ Assassin 9/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6.

[Batcathat]

Right in there, it says one of the possible motivations is fanatical adherence to a cause. You can assassinate an evil dictator because you're firmly dedicated to the cause of Good.

It does seem odd that killing someone for being Evil is Good if you're a paladin but anything but if you're an assassin, doesn't it? :smallconfused:

[Particle_Man]

There are other "kill for a cause" prestige classes, like Ruby Knight Vindicator, that don't have to be evil.

So I am assuming that the assassin is tagged as evil partly because they are explicitly only in it for the money, and partly because of the entrance requirement of killing someone solely for the purpose of joining an organization that is strictly in it for the money. I mean even most fighter mercenary guilds don't require you to murder someone as part of the entrance requirement! :smalleek:

[Jack_Simth]

"one who murders a politically important person either for money or from fanatical adherence to a cause"

Right in there, it says one of the possible motivations is fanatical adherence to a cause. You can assassinate an evil dictator because you're firmly dedicated to the cause of Good.

It also says "murders"

This isn't self defense. This isn't a battlefield. By definition this is a guy who repeatedly engages in straight up murder.

[DiamondRStudios]

What would y'all say or some highlights of the assassin spell list?

[Jack_Simth]

What would y'all say or some highlights of the assassin spell list?

The list made the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm). Well, except for additions elsewhere (e.g., Spell Compendium):


1st Level
disguise self, detect poison, feather fall, ghost sound, jump, obscuring mist, sleep, true strike.

2nd Level
alter self, cat’s grace, darkness, fox’s cunning, illusory script, invisibility, pass without trace, spider climb, undetectable alignment.

3rd Level
deep slumber, deeper darkness, false life, magic circle against good, misdirection, nondetection.

4th Level
clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimension door, freedom of movement, glibness, greater invisibility, locate creature, modify memory, poison.

[Remuko]

The list made the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm). Well, except for additions elsewhere (e.g., Spell Compendium):

i think diamond was asking peoples opinions on what spells on the list people think are the best (aka the highlights), not for a link to the list.

[Particle_Man]

Well invisibility and it’s greater version are good for the death attack set up, and true strike great for landing the death attack (maybe a silent true strike so as to remain undetected?).

[CopperElfCleric]

Yes... you're all right actually. You can be a sneak attack, skill monkey with Death Attack and cast spells. Is that a bad thing? Hmmm. no.

LOB has a major problem with his black and white outlook on the 3.5 game. If my CN moon elf wants to be an assassin he will. I'm not black and white rules boy. I follow the rules but abide by no stigma.

I will double down on the fact that Assassin spells are worth it if you're a rogue PC or NPC.

I would rather fight a 20'th level rogue than a rogue 10/ Assassin 10.

[LordofBones]

I....never ever mentioned assassin alignments. All I did was point out that branching out into assassin is a net loss for the beguiler.

[Gnaeus]

.
I will double down on the fact that Assassin spells are worth it if you're a rogue PC or NPC.

I would rather fight a 20'th level rogue than a rogue 10/ Assassin 10.

Barring a “low magic” or other limited gear game, I very much doubt you could tell the difference. The entire component of spells an assassin 10 can carry is a trivial % of WBL for a rogue 20.

[Darg]

Barring a “low magic” or other limited gear game, I very much doubt you could tell the difference. The entire component of spells an assassin 10 can carry is a trivial % of WBL for a rogue 20.

That really depends. If you have a whole bunch of wands, scrolls, and potions sticking out everywhere I don't think you would be as effective at infiltration. Despite "weight" limitations, the practicality of carrying everything with you is pretty limited. You might get away with a custom Persistent Disguise Self scroll to magically make all that bulk imperceptible unless they have detection magic or feel you up.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That really depends. If you have a whole bunch of wands, scrolls, and potions sticking out everywhere I don't think you would be as effective at infiltration. Despite "weight" limitations, the practicality of carrying everything with you is pretty limited. You might get away with a custom Persistent Disguise Self scroll to magically make all that bulk imperceptible unless they have detection magic or feel you up.

I mean, worst case scenario you keep the few wands and such that you'll need immediately on your person and the rest in the very cost-efficient Heward's Handy Haversack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack) or something like the MIC's Wand Bracelet or Infinite Scrollcase. Storage of their UMD-able items is really the last thing that they'd need to worry about.

[Darg]

I mean, worst case scenario you keep the few wands and such that you'll need immediately on your person and the rest in the very cost-efficient Heward's Handy Haversack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack) or something like the MIC's Wand Bracelet or Infinite Scrollcase. Storage of their UMD-able items is really the last thing that they'd need to worry about.

The haversack is a backpack. Usable in some situations sure. Wand bracelet combined with Infinite Scrollcase is the better infiltration combo. The problem then becomes activating the scrolls. 20+caster level isn't such an easy thing to emulate. On top of that you need the appropriate ability score to even cast the spell, so a second skill check if you don't have one. You can't take 10 without 4 levels warlock, and a natural 1 failure makes it so you can't use the item for 24 hours. The inconveniences mount.

[Gnaeus]

The haversack is a backpack. Usable in some situations sure. Wand bracelet combined with Infinite Scrollcase is the better infiltration combo. The problem then becomes activating the scrolls. 20+caster level isn't such an easy thing to emulate. On top of that you need the appropriate ability score to even cast the spell, so a second skill check if you don't have one. You can't take 10 without 4 levels warlock, and a natural 1 failure makes it so you can't use the item for 24 hours. The inconveniences mount.

But it’s a rogue 20. His UMD will never have to roll. Then you put a couple of wands in wand chambers in his weapons. They are DC20 autosucceed.

[Jack_Simth]

Barring a “low magic” or other limited gear game, I very much doubt you could tell the difference. The entire component of spells an assassin 10 can carry is a trivial % of WBL for a rogue 20.
Does this answer change if we drop the level?

Consider level 10: Are the spells of a Rogue-5/Assassin-5 a trival portion of 10th level WBL?
What about 15th? Rogue-5/Assassin-10 vs. a Rogue-15.

[Darg]

But it’s a rogue 20. His UMD will never have to roll. Then you put a couple of wands in wand chambers in his weapons. They are DC20 autosucceed.

How does that work? Skill mastery only says that it allows you to take 10 when being distracted or stressed would prevent you from taking 10. UMD flat out says you can't take 10. Ever. As the ability only expands the situations in which you can take 10 and doesn't mention that it allows you to take 10 even if you are prohibited from taking 10, I can't say it's even good faith to allow you to take 10 in combat when you still wouldn't be able to take 10/20 out of combat.

Edit: oops replied without seeing the rogue 20 part. Rogue 20 is the end of game point. Otherwise we get into epic levels and the Death Attack DC starts to climb at an extremely rapid pace. Not to mention that at higher levels, you'll want certain spells at higher caster levels for protection such as nondetection. I'm not saying that rogue 20 is inferior, just that assassin has some benefits in the role it is specialized in such as HiPS.

[Gnaeus]

How does that work? Skill mastery only says that it allows you to take 10 when being distracted or stressed would prevent you from taking 10. UMD flat out says you can't take 10. Ever. As the ability only expands the situations in which you can take 10 and doesn't mention that it allows you to take 10 even if you are prohibited from taking 10, I can't say it's even good faith to allow you to take 10 in combat when you still wouldn't be able to take 10/20 out of combat.

Edit: oops replied without seeing the rogue 20 part. Rogue 20 is the end of game point. Otherwise we get into epic levels and the Death Attack DC starts to climb at an extremely rapid pace. Not to mention that at higher levels, you'll want certain spells at higher caster levels for protection such as nondetection. I'm not saying that rogue 20 is inferior, just that assassin has some benefits in the role it is specialized in such as HiPS.

Y’all are arguing about my response to a post in which I specifically stated that you can’t likely tell much difference between a rogue 20 and a rogue 10/assassin 10. I didn’t pick the level. If you can defend CopperElfCleric’s position, do. Because it’s wrong.

So I invite you to:
1 agree that it’s wrong and clarify that it is instead correct in your opinion at level X
2. Leave me out of it.

Heck, I’ll happily agree that HiPS is something good assassins get that rogues need. I just don’t see delayed access to a handful of spells to be anything worth writing home about.

The 2 meaningful differences for me between the 2 are HiPS (not a spell), and the possibility that in a low magic mart world the rogue/assassin has the option to take craft wands or some other feat and ensure himself some needed gear or cooperate in crafting with other PCs. I see about 6-7 assassin spells I’d carry as wands, and a few more I wouldn’t mind having emergency scrolls of, for those situations. But I’d still buy the wands as an assassin, because most of the ones you want you want a lot of. And some work better out of wands, like freedom of movement, which is easier to use from a stick in your short sword if you are in a grapple. You could honestly change the spells table to replace every other non 0 number with a 1 and it would have minimal impact as long as you kept your caster level and the theoretical ability to cast most of those.

Assassin is a decent PRC. Low entry hurdles (aside from the alignment thing). Gives a few useful tools. But it’s spell list is ok at best and easily replicable. Often surpassable. Alter Self is a great spell at 3-5. But it’s kinda a corner utility case by the time assassins get it at 8. By 10 I’d expect to be UMDing a polymorph wand if I needed some natural armor and a movement type.

[Darg]

Y’all are arguing about my response to a post in which I specifically stated that you can’t likely tell much difference between a rogue 20 and a rogue 10/assassin 10. I didn’t pick the level. If you can defend CopperElfCleric’s position, do. Because it’s wrong.

So I invite you to:
1 agree that it’s wrong and clarify that it is instead correct in your opinion at level X
2. Leave me out of it.

Heck, I’ll happily agree that HiPS is something good assassins get that rogues need. I just don’t see delayed access to a handful of spells to be anything worth writing home about.

The 2 meaningful differences for me between the 2 are HiPS (not a spell), and the possibility that in a low magic mart world the rogue/assassin has the option to take craft wands or some other feat and ensure himself some needed gear or cooperate in crafting with other PCs. I see about 6-7 assassin spells I’d carry as wands, and a few more I wouldn’t mind having emergency scrolls of, for those situations. But I’d still buy the wands as an assassin, because most of the ones you want you want a lot of. And some work better out of wands, like freedom of movement, which is easier to use from a stick in your short sword if you are in a grapple. You could honestly change the spells table to replace every other non 0 number with a 1 and it would have minimal impact as long as you kept your caster level and the theoretical ability to cast most of those.

Assassin is a decent PRC. Low entry hurdles (aside from the alignment thing). Gives a few useful tools. But it’s spell list is ok at best and easily replicable. Often surpassable. Alter Self is a great spell at 3-5. But it’s kinda a corner utility case by the time assassins get it at 8. By 10 I’d expect to be UMDing a polymorph wand if I needed some natural armor and a movement type.

My reply was about situations in which infiltrations are a thing with restrictive access to things. I was replied to about items that help negate the negatives of restrictive access. At that point I had forgotten about being 20th and was seeing things holistically. In the quote of me you had, I did correct myself.

I do have to disagree about the spell list being only ok and easily replicable. It has spells unique to cleric, druid, wizard, and bard spell lists. The spells are also pretty specific to being an assassin. I think the PRC is an excellent example of what WotC was going for when they created PRCs. Especially when you consider that not everyone is going to be big into creating a library of spell scrolls and wands they might need in some future event and keeping up with caster levels simply gets harder.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #325 has one more spell available in Assassin list - Marked Man (2nd-level):

Upon casting this spell, you become attuned to the specific creature that owns the spell's focus item. (A creature is considered to own an item if it was the last creature to carry the item on its person for 1 day or more. You do not count when considering what creature was last to carry an item.) This attunement grants you a +10 bonus on Search and Survival checks made to track the items owner or find evidence of his passage. This spell does not give you insight into who or what the creature he is attuned to is or where that creature ultimately might be. Also, the spell does not provide a trail that is not already there nor does it provide you with the benefits of the Track feat.
Arcane Focus: An object owned by the creature or a piece of the creature to be tracked, such as a tuft of hair or a fingernail.
The spell takes 1 minute to cast, and lasts 1 day/CL

[CopperElfCleric]

It does seem odd that killing someone for being Evil is Good if you're a paladin but anything but if you're an assassin, doesn't it? :smallconfused:

Exactly... So Paladins kill evil beings as swift as Assassins kill the goodly, albeit with much less finesse and style than the latter. But yet... Assassin can only be evil?

What if you're a CG Wood elf Beguiler 20/ Bladesinger 10, and you hunt and kill equally powerful evil beings throughout Faerun? You would be a legend and hero and good guy to goodly folk.... but you would be a monster to those you battle and hunt.

To me, and our entire gaming group, we all agree that the Assassin PrC can be of CG, CN, LG, LN and just plain N alignment.

I understand the paradigm of the Assassin is considered evil due to killing for money or just sheer joy. But the actual definition of an assassin is one who kills for a reason, especially one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.

Fanatical?... Sweet. So my Moon elf Rogue 10/ Cleric 10/ Mischiefmaker 10 of Erevan Ilesere that pranks, tricks and eventually kills good and evil people in the name of his fickle, frivolous elven god is really just an assassin without needing the PrC. Isn't D&D so amazing? I dig it. I love the concept. If that is the case, I would imagine taking the assassin PrC just means you're going to focus more on the killing, be it for good or evil.

[CopperElfCleric]

What would y'all say or some highlights of the assassin spell list?

Great question....

1. true strike (Make sure your death blow ends their life)
2. alter self (Make sure you take the form and guise of a trusted friend.)
3. greater invisibility (They never see death coming, and you stay invisible)
4. pass without trace (They can never figure out where you came from, or where you went)
5. dimension door (You're 100 feet away.... now you're behind them with a knife in their neck.)
6. cat’s grace (The quicker you are, the faster the kill)

[loky1109]

Absorb weapon.
Long ago I even created PrC around this spell. In 2005 maybe?
He can enchant hidden weapon, return it, throw and some similar thing.
Maybe it is still on my old hard disk, but hard isn't in PC for a long time.

[Gnaeus]

Great question....

1. true strike (Make sure your death blow ends their life)
2. alter self (Make sure you take the form and guise of a trusted friend.)
3. greater invisibility (They never see death coming, and you stay invisible)
4. pass without trace (They can never figure out where you came from, or where you went)
5. dimension door (You're 100 feet away.... now you're behind them with a knife in their neck.)
6. cat’s grace (The quicker you are, the faster the kill)

1. Requires a silent metamagic rod because it has a verbal component and it’s pretty unlikely that silent spell is worthwhile
2. Thats a good spell
3. That’s a good spell. Unfortunately, it’s a spell every rogue needs in a wand, and you don’t get enough uses to mitigate that need. So only really helpful to have on list for item crafting. By the time you get it at 12th level, already pushing obsolescence compared with dust of disappearance and high level illusions.
4. If track were worth using, might be worth casting. Make sure you aren’t playing 3.5 but are in Lord of the Rings before prepping.
5. And since spell specifically ends your turn, they can move away.
6. Like 3 but more so. Great for all the level 8 rogue types who don’t have a dex item.

[Particle_Man]

Dimension Door would be more of a “get away” spell, I would think.

[Maat Mons]

I forgot about this thread for a while. I have a few minor responses to things that have been said.

With regard to Assassins being murderers, remember that murder is, by definition unlawful (and premeditated) killing. Remember too, that unlawful doesn't mean immoral. For example, opposing an evil ruler is obviously going to be unlawful. The evil ruler is in the position of making the laws, so he'll make sure that opposing him is against the law.

This could be used as an argument for Assassin having "any non-lawful" as a prerequisite. But as D&D defines things, lawful characters are only required to respect legitimate authority. Additionally, some governments may send assassins after the leaders of rival nations. In this case, the assassin is obeying the laws of his own county. In fact, refusing the assignment may even be against the law of his country. He would be violating the law of the country in which he conducts the mission. But if a lawful character must choose between obeying his own county's leaders, and obeying the leaders of a rival nation, I think being loyal to his own country is indeed a lawful act.

There are a couple of easy ways for Rogues (or anyone) to circumvent the need for UMD. The Planar Touchstone feat can be used to gain the granted power of the Magic domain. That's one feat for a 100% chance of activating any wands or staffs of spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. If the DM lets you treat your character level as your effective cleric level for the benefits from Catalogs of Enlightenment, an 18th-level character would have a 100% chance of activating scrolls of 5th-level or lower.

Even if your DM rules that Catalogues of Enlightenment leaves you permanently with an effective cleric level of zero, you can still activate scrolls of up to 5th level with no chance of failure. An effective Cleric level of zero still leaves you with an effective Sorcerer/Wizard level of one. And a level of one lets you roll a caster level check to activate scrolls above your weight class. And the Arcane Mastery feat lets you take 10 on caster level checks. If you check the errata, you'll see that you can do this even when rushed or threatened.

Another option is the Magical Training feat, which gives you one virtual level in an arcane casting class of your choice for purposes of activating wands and staffs. But it doesn't help with scrolls at all. So it's worse except for the fact that it's available at a lower level.