How deep do you plunge into your character's backstory?

[Foolwise]

I definitely jumped into the deep end this time. I am in the middle of fleshing it out and am currently sitting at 6 pages!!! I could break it down into three acts and I am in the middle of the 2nd act right now, so probably looking at 10-ish pages of backstory when all is written and done. Kinda nuts. Wait. No kinda about it.

Time is the real culprit here. I have been working on this character for over a month now. While I have a DM, we haven't found anyone else to play with and start the campaign. And this is mainly to scratch a personal itch as I doubt I will ever share more than a few main tidbits with the DM/PCs.

So how important is your backstory? Do you dip your toe in the water and roll off the tables? Play in the shallow end with key defining characteristics listed? Or fully submerged yourself... maybe not to the same depths as I have done.

[MaxWilson]

I think it's healthy to spend maybe up to an hour thinking about relationships with NPCs and other PCs, but a detailed event log (more than a paragraph or two) is not helpful. Your backstory should never be more interesting than what happens onscreen.

[strangebloke]

Creative writing is a hobby and as such there's nothing wrong with writing 20 or even a 100 pages if you want. The longest I've ever written was 15 pages, though if you count the character that was on loan from my original novel, you could argue that my longest "backstory" was 250 pages.

But the important thing to realize is: your DM isn't going to read all that, and your fellow players are definitely not going to read that. Your character's story will primarily be the story forged between the other members of the party, right? Not some scrap of paper in your journal.

And I think that's the key, right? Whatever nonsense you have going on in the background, you need to show up to play and engage with the things that are actively happening in the game. Nobody likes playing with the dark mysterious ranger who is constantly trying to get people to ask about his backstory and then rebuffing them as soon as they engage. Nobody wants to play with the bard whose player keeps saying, "Man, I SURE HOPE nobody finds out my SECRET, that would a REAL SHAME"

By the same token, if you don't want to write a backstory, you should at least imbue your character with enough personality that they can engage with the adventure in an interesting way.

So whatever your backstory is like, just be sure to provide a quick summary for your DM's reference. Part of this could be covered by the traits/bonds/flaws bit on your character sheet, but I usually take it a step farther and have players fill out a quick questionnaire.


Race:

Age:

Appearance:

Family/Guardians:

Background/Occupation:

Associates:

Greatest Fear:

Greatest Regret:

Something your character doesn’t know about themselves (IE, who their father is):

History(your backstory, if you want to write one):

[Corvino]

Agreed with strangebloke, backstory is important where it informs current your character's decision-making and personality. Sometimes it can be something for the DM to build plot elements off.

Roleplaying is about what happens at the table. Backstory should outline the motivations and "call to Adventure", and give you behavioural cues to build on. So when you run into a situation in play you can react consistently and in character.

[Zhorn]

strangebloke's list is probably the more ideal version that a DM will want from their players.
I like it when my players are invested enough to supply details, but those details need to be something that can be quickly summarised in a dot point list, and flexible enough for me to weave into the game with a degree of artistic licence.
General approach I take is to just get answers to the following:

What did your character do before they were an adventurer?
What turned your character towards being an adventurer?
What motivates you to work with this party?
What do you bring to motivate the party to work with you?
What is a key goal your character is working towards?

If there are any hooks in there that I as the DM see as things I'd want more detail on, then I'll work with the player to flesh it out a bit more, but ultimately I'm looking at the same thing strangebloke is; the adventuring and more interesting parts are to happen in-game and on-screen. If a player gives me a list of fantastical adventures as part of their backstory, I shift those over to goals of what they want for their character.

[Mastikator]

Only as deep as the DM is willing to read and incorporate into the campaign. If the DM doesn't care then I'd write one or two paragraphs that justify their abilities and call it a day. Generally I prefer to explain the concept to the DM before writing anything, if they're hyped about my idea I'll expand (preferably with the DM's help).

One character I'm playing had only this: Grew up in a small village. As conscripted into a feudal lord's army at an early age. Fought a few skirmishes, raided an elven village, killed some civilians. Eventually gained more ranks. After a few years the war was over and he moved to the big city to become a mercenary.
There he joined one of the merchant guilds, did a few odd jobs to pay the rent and food. Joined a hit squad from the guild, received important mission, go to place, everyone except my character died. My character joins party who has same mission.

Human fighter with soldier background, doesn't have to be complex or tragic.

[Corvino]

In my experience, characters with fantastic/tragic the backstories tend to be huge letdowns.

If I hear a backstory of the noble heir/princess from a fallen great house, out to avenge their family, or the Chosen One raised for a great destiny then I shudder. The youngest and least creative of our groups tend to go in for this stuff, and the character ends up being a Race/Class combo instead of having a personality. Half the time it seems these personal histories are copies of High Fantasy or Anime tropes that don't translate well to co-operative group play.

That's not to say that everyone should have a minimal backstory. It needs to answer the question of who the Character is - what makes them tick? (Maybe also: Why are they like they are? but this is optional). If you're a good player then you can make an interesting and compelling character from a simple beginning.

[Reach Weapon]

A flurry of dice rolls and your character is dead. All dead. Go through their clothes and look for loose change, dead.

Anything over a page and I'm pretty convinced the character should be safely ensconced in the author's mind, to suffer not the slings and arrows of outrageous gameplay.

[Hytheter]

My backstories are generally a short paragraph or two at the most. That suffices for my own use and I sure as heck don't expect anyone else to read more than that. The story is what happens at the table, not on your character sheet.

[Trask]

I've had intricate backstories for characters before, but those intricacies have always revealed themselves through play rather than being written beforehand. My method is to write a solid frame with fertile ideas that can be expounded upon later if necessary, exhaustive detail on upbringing and non essential life events can all be skipped. I also try and limit myself to a page at most to prevent myself from going on and on.

Definitely my best advice for people who like backstory but find it "never goes anywhere" is this: Connect your character to the world you are playing in.

In one campaign I was playing, when my original character died I asked the DM if I could play a lost princess of the kingdom the campaign was set in and he agreed. That character would become my favorite D&D character and is still around almost 3 years later, having become Queen and achieved demi-god status, with more dramatic twists and turns than most characters ever have. I don't think any of that would have been possible if I had made the character prior to understanding what the campaign was about, something many DM's seem to guard jealously to their detriment.

[diplomancer]

What I usually do is write a short (about 1 page) story about the triggering event that made my character an adventurer; it usually includes some background information on family and such, but this part tends to be very brief, and sometimes left intentionally unstated.

[OldTrees1]

Characters exist in the past, present, and future. When a player is asked "Who are they (the PC)?", the player might have an answer that focuses on the past, present, or future. Personally I focus on the present so my backstories are short paragraphs derived from the much longer (although rarely written) present personality of the character.

[Jerrykhor]

I have wrote long backstory before, but it was a character that was living a double life, so its actually 2 backstories in one.

6 pages is definitely too long. At some point you gotta realise, that writing a long ass backstory is like masturbation: Its a solo activity where only you gain pleasure from it. And nobody wants to see it.

DMs only care about how your character connects to their world, how they gain their abilities and the reason for adventuring. No matter how big they are a fan of your character concept, they are not sitting through 10 pages of backstory.

[Nikushimi]

Depends on the campaign and the DM who is running.

Unless we're going to focus heavily on incorporating the backstory of characters into the actual campaign I tend to go rather simple with the backstories, but often times I go rather grand.

Though I tend to try and not write a novel about it. That can get exhausting not only for yourself, but also the DM. However, I tend to fail at this and so have to often make it shorter and more concise. Often creating bullet points.

Also, it can make you feel horrible when the DM doesn't remember something in your backstory or your backstory is never used.
----

That aside, it is a great practice for creative writing and it never hurts to write a nice backstory for your character. As much as I try to keep my backstories simple, they often never do and so I end up writing more than I needed, but it's fun.

However, do be careful cause I have made the mistake of also writing the "ending" to my characters story within the backstory.

it's one reason I don't often use characters that have too much of a backstory, or a direction I WANT the story to end in.

Like for example a Monk of mine back in 3.5 that I had was created by the very Moon itself to serve as an entity/companion/lover of the Moon Goddess, but he had to grow stronger on the mortal plane first. This guaranteed his ending. If he died, he would go directly to her side. If he didn't, he would grow stronger and learn more of the world. It was a weird backstory that I regret ever putting forth cause it felt like I railroaded myself.

Another that I worked on was an unwilling Warlock whose parents made a pact, and basically his patron came to take him as was required, and in my head this is because they were promised to be their future spouse/companion in the eternal life that they had, but I ended up leaving the decision of WHY this being was after him up to the DM while also kind of leaving hints that this entity bears no ill will towards my character to maybe shape a friendly relationship in the future, but I regret this as it still feels like I'm hamstringing the DM into doing only certain actions with the patron of my character.

Not to say that isn't a bad thing, but to me it just felt like everything was leading up to that ending rather than seeing where the story took me, but that might just be me.
----

So, just be aware of that. Because of that, I rarely use extravagant or detailed backstories that include some kind of "ending" within the backstory, or even a hint at an ending that I want. It sours the mood a bit for me.

So I tend to make more simple backstories or stories that can help fit into a campaign and make sense to the world or setting, or just a way that makes sense getting them INTO the party.

I have so many backgrounds I could talk about or examples, but don't want to weigh this comment down anymore than I already did.

That's what I do and how I tend to write my backstories, but I often tend to get carried away that I might as well just write a novel. Lol.
----

Good luck to you in writing your backstory and have fun with it!

[Kane0]

A paragraph. You get a paragraph.

X was a professional athlete until his telekinetic powers formed, rendered him unable to compete under claims of cheating. Not willing to join any form of 'mage club' he instead chose to join a travelling band of adventurers to secure his fame and fortune.

Y was an upstart shaman in a remote badlands tribe, consorting with demons in order to garner power and leverage to take over the tribe. Her ambitions got the better of her and she was ousted, having her tongue cut out and banished as punishment. Now she wanders in search of a new clan to take her in... and lead.

Z grew up in an elven family heavily valuing knowledge, and in order to distinguish himself from his brethren he made the controversial decision to enrol in the academy of a nearby human. He became a professional student, his elven age allowing him to spend decades learning everything on offer until such avenues were exhausted; then joining a guild running expeditions to turn all his theory into practical.

Edit:
Its enough for a start and allows for more to be added later, either naturally through play or in an organized fashion with the DM. If the game isnt that deep or the character doesnt last long for whatever reason then no effort was wasted.
It also stops me from writing far too much on a character that may never see play.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I usually go for a few paragraphs.

Jane was born the 5th child and first daughter to Erik and Rayla a carpenter and brewer in the domain of Baron Darkhold. Jane was followed by four younger siblings all sisters. When she came of age she became a cook and eventually was recruited to work in the palace of Baron Darkhold himself. One fateful day the baron had finally captured the leaders of the resistance and was preparing to have them executed while he enjoyed a lavish dinner.

In a tiny act of rebellion she failed to debone his dinner roasted Shrill.(like a cow but smaller and more legs) causing Darkhold to choke. In rage Darkhold pulled out a dagger and lunged at Jane who side stepped out of the way. Darkhold tripped over a footstool and went over the railing simultaneously stabbing himself with his own dagger rupturing a bag of holding and raining gold down upon the crowd.

The crowd stared up in shock but only for a moment before they rushed the scaffolding, overwhelming the still dumbfounded guards and freed the leaders of the resistance. Everyone assumed she threw him off the balcony after some valiant struggle and thus folk hero was born.

Jane left her home and became a Paladin hoping to live up to her own legend

I did this backstory for two reasons, one a problem with folk hero is your initial actions are either to much for a essentially level 0 character. Or will be quickly overshadowed after even a single adventure.
So I went the accidental route.

The second reason was with only some minor adjustments I can rip off the Hero of Canton song from firefly.

[Warder]

Anyone who tells you your backstory is "too long" is flat out wrong! Everyone has their own reasons for writing a character's backstory, and if you're like me you may do it simply because it makes it easier to get into character in actual play. I've done everything from two paragraphs to five pages and anything in between, it just depends on the character. The more alien and out there my character concept is, like a dragonborn or a githzerai, the more backstory I tend to write just to get an idea for how my character would live their lives.

That having been said, if you're writing half a novel, I fully believe it is your responsibility to condense that novel into a short list of TL;DR bullet points and that is what you send to your DM. If your DM wants to know more, sure, then send the full thing! Another piece of advice I see a lot is to always keep in mind that your character's greatest adventures are meant to be ahead of them, not in their past.

[Amnestic]

The longest I ever wrote was a few pages but I wouldn't provide anything over a couple of paragraphs to DM/other players unless they specifically asked for it, and would hope they'd return the favour in kind. End of the day the core of a character should come out during play, rather than a hefty backstory. If their backstory is more interesting than what they're doing right now, then we should probably be playing their backstory instead, right?

[stoutstien]

I made a 3 page backstory for a one shot so yeah I go deep even if never sees the light of day. Of course a lot of those her recycled into NPCs so they never go to complete waste.

[Carpe Gonzo]

For PCs I never really go beyond the broad strokes of the concept. For example, "female human entertainer wizard who wants to be famous and admired. Loves fire/flashy magic. Is an adventurer to pay the bills and grow in fame and power."

For NPCs, only far enough to explain motivations or to provide additional adventure hooks or to create emotional hooks. I never write prose for them, just basic summary.

[Catullus64]

I like to mostly leave it in broad strokes, because I want my backstory to feel relevant to the events at hand, and the best way to do that is to fill in most of it as you play, coining anecdotes, past acquaintances, major events and such as the need arises. A lot of the fun I get out of roleplaying is deciding, moment to moment, who this character is. Why would I want to lock myself down with too many specifics in advance.

Technically, I guess this means that with a long-running character, I get quite deep into their backstory, many pages worth. But I never go over half a page from the outset.

[da newt]

For your DM - one page, bulletized, useful for them with a hook or two and some room to play (like a good 1 page resume)

For you - what ever makes you happy. There is no wrong answer - a picture and nothing more or a novel, do what works best for you, but I'd recommend ensuring you leave yourself room to adjust / re-imagine as you play - you may learn about your PC as you go.

I like an outline with just enough that I can develop / learn about my guy as we go / as it unfolds at the table. For me the most important bits are what are the goals / what are their defining beliefs / how do they make decisions - everything else is fluff that can be ad libbed based on the guiding principals (I'm prone to idealistic PCs).

My biggest hurdle is finding a reason for my PC to buy into the rest of the party and a life of peril - it takes a special person to decide to dedicate themselves to hunting wasp nests to kick open so they can get stung again and again ...

[Amechra]

I tend to backfill my character backstories in play, since I prefer to play "side" characters. I tend to sit down with just a broad personality and maybe an important event in their backstory. If more detail is needed, I'll make something up on the spot.

[Zhorn]

I tend to backfill my character backstories in play, since I prefer to play "side" characters. I tend to sit down with just a broad personality and maybe an important event in their backstory. If more detail is needed, I'll make something up on the spot.
That can be pretty fun. Done that a handful of times myself.
You have the backstory just interesting enough to explain why your with the group, but not interesting enough to draw focus.
I've been a ship's quartermaster, a bodyguard, a wrestler's hype man, a bard's agent.
Most of the time it's about playing improvised support to the other players antics. You are the thing they can lean on to make their characters *pop* just right.

[Grod_The_Giant]

"Enough for you to play the character." Which... isn't really an answer, but is also the only answer. Hell, even just looking at my own recent characters, I have some who started off as raw race/class combos and acquired personality over the course of the campao, and I have some who I've written entire short stories trying to get into their head.

Because, as has been mentioned, the GM isn't really going to care about your background. In a conventional plot-driven game, they're not going to be carefully writing a plot that weaves in pieces of everyone's backstory. (Hell, they can't do that, intricate plots never survive contact with the players). If it's a free-form character-driven game, they probably have a dozen plates spinning already and don't want to be stuck with more--backstory stuff will come up if you pursue it, same as any other element in a sandbox. And that you can do on the fly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with pulling a player aside between sessions and saying "hey, I want [npc that you're looking for] to have some sort of connection to your character, care to make up an old rival?"

What's most useful is probably a set of video-game style tags, odd as that is to say. A couple key points that they can easily remember and use to customize NPC reactions-- "they're from the desert so they get cold easily," "their parents were killed so now they hate orcs," that sort of thing.

Because, as has already been mentioned, the GM isn't going to want to read more than a few paragraphs of character details, and backstory only matters when it comes up in play.

Edit: You can think of character creation as the player equivalent of GM preparation. Some people just want the bare bones, some like to have a ton more worked out than will ever come up at the table, and everyone knows not to get too attached to any one element.


Anything over a page and I'm pretty convinced the character should be safely ensconced in the author's mind, to suffer not the slings and arrows of outrageous gameplay.
Safe? In an author's mind? Psshh, we only keep characters around to make them suffer :p

[Sigreid]

Almost not at all unless it's requested.

[Reach Weapon]

Safe? In an author's mind? Psshh, we only keep characters around to make them suffer :p
Where they suffer and triumph exactly to the author's will.
The fundamental differences between the activities has resulted in more wreckage than I like contemplate

[KorvinStarmast]

How deep do you plunge into your character's backstory?
Anywhere from 3 sentences to 12 pages. It varies. My current back story has grown in telling as we play. (We recently hit level 15). Now and again one of the PCs either reveals something about their PC, or, one of the hooks the DM and the players worked begins to take on a life of its own and the player then adds flesh to the skeleton of an idea that fits the character. Some of it comes in flash backs. I recently 'revealed' a bit of my character's back story at the end of a battle when I finally tracked down my nemesis and killed him. This was the vile slaver who had killed all of my shipmates (which was from the Sailor background in the PHB, broad brush) and I'd been left for dead. (Actually, went over the side and swam away...)

So that general background feature became a two page scene for the character. The other characters have done similar things, to include our paladin finally confronting his ex and having a climactic battle with her. (She was wielding a magical battle axe). This is a form of 'emergent' character development that can be a lot of fun to do without front loading a back story to the multi page depth.

[CapnWildefyr]

Your backstory should never be more interesting than what happens onscreen.

Absolutely! The problem with long backstories: why are you bothering to adventure now, if you did all that before?


Anywhere from 3 sentences to 12 pages. It varies. My current back story has grown in telling as we play. (We recently hit level 15). Now and again one of the PCs either reveals something about their PC, or, one of the hooks the DM and the players worked begins to take on a life of its own and the player then adds flesh to the skeleton of an idea that fits the character. Some of it comes in flash backs. I recently 'revealed' a bit of my character's back story at the end of a battle when I finally tracked down my nemesis and killed him. This was the vile slaver who had killed all of my shipmates (which was from the Sailor background in the PHB, broad brush) and I'd been left for dead. (Actually, went over the side and swam away...)

So that general background feature became a two page scene for the character. The other characters have done similar things, to include our paladin finally confronting his ex and having a climactic battle with her. (She was wielding a magical battle axe). This is a form of 'emergent' character development that can be a lot of fun to do without front loading a back story to the multi page depth.

Yes.

I think the main points are to:
(1) write enough hooks so the DM can do something with it, if desired
(2) write things generally, not too specifically. If you get too specific, then it's hard for what you wrote to get used.
(3) you can always expand on things if needed as long as it doesn't break the story (like you can't say "Oh, buy didn't I say I know all about vampires because of my Uncle Pietr von Cushing?" out of nowhere).
(4) concoct enough so you can roleplay in various situations

When I've had people write big backstories, it was always so detailed I couldn't do anything with it. I mean, give me some family names and general history, let me as DM work it into the plot if I can. Don't tell all the story, the fun is in making the story happen through play. And don't wrap up the stories, leave dangling ends.

And you have to have a DM who cares.

[KorvinStarmast]

And don't wrap up the stories, leave dangling ends.

And you have to have a DM who cares. Both are points worth repeating. :smallsmile:

[Sorinth]

If you enjoy writing long backstories then by all mean do that, the only suggestion I have is after you've written it make a cliffs notes version of it that highlights the important NPCs, your relationship with them and a list of places you've lived and maybe visited.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Wow, Playgrounders!

I read the title and was prepared to rant and make all kinds of points...then I read that they had already been made. And the points I would emphasize were already emphasized. I'm redundant!

For those who read this, the first page of this thread contains more wisdom on character creation than exist in all of the 5e books. Sure, the books have more pages, but that's it.

[Evaar]

I get as detailed as I like for my headcanon, but I look for the most economical way to express that information in actual prose. I try to keep it to one page.

My most recent character is a Hexblood who was born to a human mother (who happens to be blind and a daughter of the Ravenshade patriar family of Baldur’s Gate) and a Darkling Elder. The two have a star-crossed lovers’ story where they met in darkness attracted by each other’s singing, had a secret affair, and gave birth to a child - my character. The curse that afflicts Darklings affected my character as a baby and his grandfather (outraged that his daughter had been “attacked” by this Fey monster) scarred him permanently by pulling the blanket off of his face in the light. This grandfather then made a deal with hags to expel all the Darkling blood from his grandchild, but the twist on that deal is they made the baby a hexblood instead. This also resulted in mom, dad, and grandfather disappearing and my character being hidden and raised in secret by a handmaiden; then there’s time in adolescence after running away getting involved in black market smuggling and working with Darklings who still recognize the kid as one of their own, and it keeps going.

I started writing it in first person, but it went on too long. Then I started writing it from the journal of the handmaiden, but again that had too much info. So instead, since this is a Candlekeep campaign, I wrote it out as someone summarizing the contents of the handmaiden’s journal. This leaves out a lot of the details I mentioned above, but it hits all the most important points and it still feels like an appropriate voice for the setting.

I’d recommend people looking for ways to cut down their stories try listening to The Magnus Archives podcast. That’s a show comprised of a few hundred short stories (which eventually all link together) so it gives you a ton of examples and ideas on perspectives from which to tell a story economically. The character you’re writing from isn’t necessarily omniscient, which means you can omit some details but still leave space for them to be true.

[Talwar]

Depends a bit on the starting level.

If it's low, the backstory's likely a paragraph at most. Where from, what family, why adventuring?

If it's mid-range, I might also write a few paragraphs that focus on a core concept. For a character that started at L10, I wrote four paragraphs and thought that was pretty comprehensive.

[Sigreid]

It can be fun rolling on the Xanathar background tables if you want to aslo.

[elyktsorb]

At times I've done the whole 'here's several pages of my characters backstory' but more often than not I just stick to the cliffnotes version because I feel like every time I've ever provided excess backstory, my dm never bothers with it.

I think out of all the dnd games I've been in, only 1 or 2 of them ever bothered including something that related to my characters backstory in some way, and considering how many I've played that's pretty low.

[Tanarii]

As a DM, I want the player to think about their motivations, not their backstory.

And about the right length is the one the 5e PHB has: 5-6 sentences. Alignment typical behavior, 1-2 Personality, Ideal, Bond, Flaw.

Also maybe a cool trinket that might provoke something at the table is nice.

That's not to say that knowing if you have parents/siblings or how you got into your background/class or how you came about your starting gold is verboten. But you can also make that stuff up during play if you like, if it comes up for some reason. Because, and this is the important part to me, only what happens during play matters. In short & generally speaking, these things only matters if it affects your decision making at the table. That's why motivations are critical, and character history is important only insofar as it provides further motivations.

I find it's best to get players thinking in the right direction. And writing a short novel about their character isn't it. I'm certainly never going to use it or read it. If you want that to happen, make it part of an Ideal, Bond or Flaw. Preferably Bond, which is the "things I give my DM permission to screw with that my PC cares about" trait.

[Porcupinata]

As a DM, I want the player to think about their motivations, not their backstory.

And about the right length is the one the 5e PHB has: 5-6 sentences. Alignment typical behavior, 1-2 Personality, Ideal, Bond, Flaw.

Also maybe a cool trinket that might provoke something at the table is nice.

That's not to say that knowing if you have parents/siblings or how you got into your background/class or how you came about your starting gold is verboten. But you can also make that stuff up during play if you like, if it comes up for some reason. Because, and this is the important part to me, only what happens during play matters. In short & generally speaking, these things only matters if it affects your decision making at the table. That's why motivations are critical, and character history is important only insofar as it provides further motivations.

I find it's best to get players thinking in the right direction. And writing a short novel about their character isn't it. I'm certainly never going to use it or read it. If you want that to happen, make it part of an Ideal, Bond or Flaw. Preferably Bond, which is the "things I give my DM permission to screw with that my PC cares about" trait.

As a player, I very much agree with this philosophy.

I actively dislike having a backstory with "hooks" for the DM to use. I'm here to explore the DM's world and get involved in exciting adventures, not play out some cliched family melodrama where the villain turns out to be my long lost father again. Wow, what a coincidence!

So I'll normally have my characters be people who have left their homes and former lives, with ties severed cleanly and no "unfinished business", and travelled to the place in which the campaign will start.

As such, I'll normally give the DM and the other players a short paragraph or a few bullet points only. In my head I'll have a more detailed backstory - and that will inform my roleplaying - but those details are (or at least should be) irrelevant to the campaign and it's plot.

[Glorthindel]

My rule for players bringing characters to my table, is that the most important events in the characters life must happen at the table. If you think of the campaign as a book or movie, the characters backstory is the prologue, setting up the reason the character is here and coming on the adventure, it is not books 1-5 of a 10 book saga of which my campaign is going to be relegated to being just book 6.

As for when I have written backstories for other peoples campaigns, the important thing I found is to leave holes (and the more detailed the story the bigger the holes), not tie the whole think into a nice inviolate bow. If someone in your history was killed by someone or something, leave that something blank. If he is searching for something, leave the exact item blank. Likewise, don't write every NPC in the backstory as a complete character, leave unknowns in their backgrounds and motivations. Then your DM can use these holes as anchor points to tie the backstory in (for example, if your parents were killed by a raiding army, saying it was Drow is useless if the DM never intends to use Drow, but if you left it blank and he intends a large arc against Sahaugin, you have your link)

[Cheesegear]

What is your Background? What did you do between the ages of Human-equivalent-8 years old, and whenever you picked up a class level? How did your community raise you?

This should not take more than one paragraph.

What was your inciting incident, what was your call to action/adventure? What is your Bond to the adventuring life? If you find your first Treasure Hoard, at say Level 2 or 3, why wouldn't your character just settle down in a village somewhere living the next few months getting fat off of their cut of a few hundred gold? If your character has a Tool Proficiency, why are you adventuring, instead of setting up shop, somewhere? What do you gain by putting your life on the line to wreck up some Goblins? What do you gain by going toe-to-toe with a Dragon? Why adventure?

How did you transition from your Background, into your Class? How did you go from a Level 0 NPC, to a Level 1 PC? This should not take more than one or two paragraphs.

Setting up your character's Personality, Ideal and Flaw before the game proper, is often a waste of time. In my experience, most players simply can't play the character that they have in their heads. I also often see red flags when a character is very clearly based off of someone they've seen in a movie. The person who plays that character is a professional actor. You, are not a professional actor. I guarantee you will not be playing this character from the very first sign of resistance. You, out of character, will develop a stress response, and react accordingly. Often, it's a better idea to develop the character as the game goes along, from in-game interactions with NPCs and other players. Whatever comes most naturally is probably how you should play. Don't bother writing in your character's alignment; I'll give you an alignment around Level 3 or 4 based on what I've seen thus far.

If your backstory is longer than a page (at 12 pt. font)? At Level 1? That's too long.

[Amechra]

Don't bother writing in your character's alignment; I'll give you an alignment around Level 3 or 4 based on what I've seen thus far.

You use alignment? I've only ever seen it be used as a justification for bad behavior.

[Cheesegear]

You use alignment? I've only ever seen it be used as a justification for bad behavior.

Then you've only ever seen it used wrong.

[KorvinStarmast]

You use alignment? I've only ever seen it be used as a justification for bad behavior.
My brother leans heavily into his LG alignment with is Paladin, Oath of Devotion. Never does what you describe. Most of my players don't pay much attention to alignment. I plot them initially as neutral and see if and where they move during play.

Don't bother writing in your character's alignment; I'll give you an alignment around Level 3 or 4 based on what I've seen thus far. That's a good DM technique. Seen that work with AD&D was well. For me the key issue is to give Warning Signs that "your alignment is drifting in this direction, and here's why" usually revealed in dreams or occasionally a messenger from an interested party, or an NPC who knows the character well. (An old mentor, for example).

If your backstory is longer than a page (at 12 pt. font)? At Level 1? That's too long.
Yep. Here's an example of one that may fit your requirements.
Criminal Background. (Fence). Half Elf. Warlock, GOO, nicknamed Lik; the plan was to choose pact of the blade. One of the skill proficiencies was Medicine. The campaign was aborted at session 2 thanks to RL taking our DM away.

The customer never came to pick up that book, so I read it. When you are hiding from a guild slimeball who thinks you made off with the whole price even though you got zero, zip, nuthin’– you need to fill the time. I hated school, which is why I left, but I studied this book like I’d never studied before. It made my head hurt.

I was on a late night grub run when I ran into Skayliza. Dragonborn are not my favorite people – are they even people? I guess so. We half-breeds can come half way, if ya know what I mean.
I was coming back to my hole, through the sewers, covering my tracks. She’d had a run in with wererats and was limping, supporting herself with that creepy looking staff. The way she looked at me made me feel like dinner.
“Lik, I could make some nice coin turning you in. Word’s out that you walked with more than just your percentage. Tell me why I shouldn’t cash in.” I had one chance to give the right answer.

The word on Skayliza was this: she usually minded her own business, and most people left her alone, but crossing her was how you ended up on a missing persons report, if anyone cared about you. Nobody cared about me enough to file one.
I told her, “I’ve got whiskey, and I can fix that wound on your leg, Skay.” After a long pause she nodded, so I led her back to my hole. Good thing I checked the wound. The wererat bite was going septic. She drained the last of my redeye – the better stuff. The dried belladonna didn’t make her too sick, she only puked twice. The next day she was looking better. To avoid worry about the full moon, though, it usually takes a week. I let her stay, and am glad I did. Coming back from another grub run I found her reading that book. She raised an eyebrow at me.

“Do you understand this, Lik? I never figured you for smart, more of a smart-alec.” I tried to say a few words from the lexicon and her eyes went wide.
“No, it’s pronounced like this. *Thorgat urn fsugharth ahn feghrro*” It rolled off of her draco-tongue like honeyed oil. I tried to say it again. We spent the next day getting me to say words to her satisfaction. And most of the next.
At the end of a week, and no infection, she was ready to go. We’d gone through most of the book. It was a draconic lexicon that had an old style primer for swordplay in the back.

Before she left I asked if she knew who had wanted that book - my customer who’d missed the meet up. Skay knew scholars and sages.
She grinned with those teeth of hers, but it didn’t scare me like it used to.
“I know who it was stolen from. Were you on that job?” My spine crawled with cold hairs.
“I was the fence, Skay - you know I don’t go in for second story work. My customer never showed up, though, and I hope it wasn’t you.” She cackled. I’d finally gotten use to that sound.
“The previous owner is no friend of mine. The customer *was* another story.” I didn’t like the sound of that. “I know someone else who’d pay well.” She took a long look at me. “I’ll split your cut with you, on account of you helping me. I’ll get a better price than you could have because, unlike you, I can move around in respectable circles in this city. Deal?”
She knew it was.

Three days later she brought me a nicely weighted bag of coin and we counted it out. I made a pile for the guild, added a few more coins for penalty, and put fifteen in my pocket. She kept the rest, with a funny look at me.
“Lik, I ended up with more than half. You don’t have a rep for charity.”
For once, I was as honest as I could be.
“I can’t buy the kind of help you gave me with that book. We both know I’m not smart enough to have figured it out by myself. I don’t care to leave debts, Skay. Call it a tutor’s fee.”

She cackled again, and headed off to wherever it is she goes when she’s looking for old secrets and curios. Before she left, she put a red rock on my table. I haven’t slept well since, but I have paid off the guild and I’m still breathing -- so I’ve got that going for me, which is nice. To keep breathing in the longer term, I left town ... yeah, I'll buy the next round. So, what brought you here?

[Tanarii]

That's a good DM technique. Seen that work with AD&D was well.
Disagree. It's a DM technique that makes Alignment useless or even harmful. It's a player tool, and DMs should keep their hand out of it barring curses or other personality shifting magical effects, and even then it requires player buy in or making the Pc into an NPC.

If you want to restrict certain kinds of behavior by alignment in your campaign, you need to be specific about how you're doing it. Like "No evil characters, as defined by me as behaving regularly like one of the evil alignment typical behaviors. You'll get a warning first."

[Cheesegear]

Disagree. It's a DM technique that makes Alignment useless or even harmful.

I disagree - of course I would, it's my technique.

The player should play however they choose to play. As I said, I often find it harmful when players decide their character's personality traits before the first session beyond the initial Adventuring Bond, because based on group dynamic the character or personality that they want to be play might be non-viable. Or maybe something happens early on in the adventure where they realise that the character they envisioned in their head is simply out of their empathic range to become.

You come across a building, on fire. A woman stands out the front, saying that her son is trapped inside. Please help.
Player A: No time to lose, I jump into the building immediately, calling out for the child. I know about smoke inhalation so I try and keep my head down as I move through the building.
Player B: Uhh...What's the son's name? How can we identify him? Where would the child be? Do we know what caused the fire? Is it safe for us?
Player C: I smirk at the woman, and ask 'What'll you give me?'

The players haven't chosen their alignment. But they've certainly chosen their alignment. I'm already writing notes. That if they act this way consistently, things will happen.

If Player A makes enough saves and doesn't take much damage. They'll find the kid, save the kid, and be rewarded.
If Player B hangs around and asks questions...The building is on fire. We don't have time. The child doesn't have time. While you're talking, the child is dying, because you want to make sure it's safe for you.
Even if Player C ends up saving the kid after a quick exchange, their reputation is already ruined.


If you want to restrict certain kinds of behavior by alignment in your campaign, you need to be specific about how you're doing it.

If you're behaving a certain way because of your alignment, you're using alignment wrong.

Behaviour causes Alignment.
Alignment doesn't cause behavior.

That's why I feel it's not necessary to have until you've solidified the character you want to be within the party in the adventure you're on...Which happens around Level 3-5, or a few sessions in, if you're starting at higher levels. You don't choose your alignment. You choose your actions. Your actions determine your alignment. Which of course affects how people perceive you (especially extra-planar creatures).

I guess for me, Alignment and Reputation fall really close together, which is why I don't think it's necessary for your character to start with reputation an alignment.

[KorvinStarmast]

Disagree. It's a DM technique that makes Alignment useless or even harmful.
It really, really depends on the table and the players. What I have found is that unless a character really wants to identify with a particular alignment, allowing it to emerge through play fits a great many players' tastes.

It's a player tool
Hardly.

DMs should keep their hand out of it barring curses or other personality shifting magical effects, and even then it requires player buy in or making the Pc into an NPC. Problem is, if you use alignment it operates within the context of the cosmos. That's DM territory.
The DM rules on what alignment you actually are based on how you act since the DM is, or fulfills the role of, the deities as well as the judgment of the cosmos. (Truth with a capital T). You(PC) can protest that you are good or evil, but if your actual behavior and beliefs do not reflect that, then you (the PC) are lying to yourself and trying to lie to the cosmos. Good luck with that. :smallwink:

If you want to restrict certain kinds of behavior by alignment in your campaign, you need to be specific about how you're doing it. Like "No evil characters, as defined by me as behaving regularly like one of the evil alignment typical behaviors. You'll get a warning first." My take is more like this: you can claim to be any alignment you want to claim, but if your behavior and approach doesn't fit then you aren't; the cosmos knows what and who you are even if you don't, or if you lie to yourself.

If you're behaving a certain way because of your alignment, you're using alignment wrong.

Behaviour causes Alignment.
Alignment doesn't cause behavior. I find that alignment works better with this approach.
"I do this because I am Chaotic neutral" is what leads to my guy syndrome.

[TMac9000]

How deep? Deep enough to figure out where my character fits in the scheme of things. In my view where they’re from is less important than where they’re going.

That said, world-building can be fun, and character backstories can be part of that. If you enjoy that kind of deep dive, by all means do it.

[Tanarii]

It really, really depends on the table and the players. What I have found is that unless a character really wants to identify with a particular alignment, allowing it to emerge through play fits a great many players' tastes.Eh, if they want to change what they're using for their motivation going forward, or were unsure before and now are sure, they change it and start using the new one.


Hardly.
Problem is, if you use alignment it operates within the context of the cosmos. That's DM territory.
The DM rules on what alignment you actually are based on how you act since the DM is, or fulfills the role of, the deities as well as the judgment of the cosmos. (Truth with a capital T). You(PC) can protest that you are good or evil, but if your actual behavior and beliefs do not reflect that, then you (the PC) are lying to yourself and trying to lie to the cosmos. Good luck with that. :smallwink:

My take is more like this: you can claim to be any alignment you want to claim, but if your behavior and approach doesn't fit then you aren't; the cosmos knows what and who you are even if you don't, or if you lie to yourself.
Hard disagree, because that's exactly how you end up with Alignment that's harmful to the game. The DM trying to tell a player what the PC's "real" alignment is.

But if a player decides to play their character as one alignment but the PC believes themselves to be another, that works just fine. Nothing says that what the PC believes and how the player intentionally chooses to play them have to match.

[Cheesegear]

The DM trying to tell a player what the PC's "real" alignment is.

It helps if the DM keeps notes, and knows the definition of the Alignments.

In my experience, players who claim they're Neutral Good, Chaotic Good or Neutral...Are playing Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil.
Players who claim to be Lawful Neutral, are Lawful Evil.
Players who claim to be Lawful Evil, are Neutral Evil, similarly, Neutral Evil players are actually Chaotic Evil.

They will then try to argue their alignments under some pseudo-definition that in no way is what's written in the PHB. My players have a real good grasp on Lawful Good. It's all the other alignments they're fuzzy on.

I will then say 'There was the time you did [X] because [Y]. Then you did [Z] because [Y], too. Then you did [A], because [Y] again. You're playing an Evil character.'

The player will then realise that alignment is meaningless, and it only matters to me, the DM, because I'm the one who controls all the extra-planar creatures that care about that sort of thing. Their alignment doesn't actually affect their character in any way.

Alignment is not a player tool. It's a DM tool. Because alignment doesn't mean anything to the player.


Nothing says that what the PC believes and how the player intentionally chooses to play them have to match.

But you just said that the DM can't choose the character's alignment. But this is exactly what this is. If a player is Lawful Evil, that should be on their character sheet. During the game, they can claim to be Lawful Good all they want. But if their actions say differently, then they are Lawful Evil, and that's what should be on their sheet.

Once you get through to someone that playing a fictional, Evil character, doesn't make you, personally a bad person...People tend not to care what the DM says their alignment is, because the only 'bad' one is being Evil. But if being Evil isn't actually a bad thing, then there's no problem. Just keep playing the game and the DM will react to you taking Evil actions. If you want the DM to stop reacting to you taking Evil actions, then start taking Good ones - preferably with NPCs who haven't previously met you (something, something, real life example).

[KorvinStarmast]

The DM trying to tell a player what the PC's "real" alignment is. There's no trying about it. The player and the DM need to have a conversation if there's a disagreement, but the final word is the DMs if there is an obvious discrepancy because someone has to be able to expose the "I profess this but I do that" to those who are either oblivious or who are way out of the box. And the evidence is generally "demonstrated versus professed, with intention accounted for". It works if alignment is that important at your table. (Hasn't been at ours, mostly, for a few years).

In all the years that I've taken this approach I have 100% success in the alignment discussion arriving at acceptance. I think that one of the reasons why is that I don't use the 9-boxes-idiot-tool that so many D&D players and DMs get hung up about in alignment arguments.

I have generally used a circle with cardinal points, radius 10 units, top of y axis is good, bottom of y axis is evil, Left X axis is Law, Right X axis is chaos, and as play continues I'll usually plot roughly where I see the player having arrived through play, actions, and decision as well as intentions. If your coordinates are -4x +6y ish, you are certainly in a lawful good zone but not as 'pure as if you were -8x +8y or thereabouts. (I usually reserve the entire radius 1 circle for true neutral ... for those who want to go there). I've been using this two axis tool as a DM since the early 80's - when I do go with two axis. I prefer LNC. If there's a consistent trend I tend check the delta between professed and demonstrated. It takes a significant delta to get a dream or a message from the DM, not a minor "oh, you cheated at Bingo last wednesday!" kind of thing to alert the player that alignment is moving - and that usually triggers a conversation. (See above).

Most players, if they do choose an alignment, will tend to mostly play in a zone that is close enough. An ellipse superimposed over that circle I mentioned above. It's the exception who don't.

But if a player decides to play their character as one alignment but the PC believes themselves to be another, that works just fine. Nothing says that what the PC believes and how the player intentionally chooses to play them have to match. I do not ascribe to the myth of player-character separation that you propose there.

[Dark.Revenant]

My rule for players bringing characters to my table, is that the most important events in the characters life must happen at the table. If you think of the campaign as a book or movie, the characters backstory is the prologue, setting up the reason the character is here and coming on the adventure, it is not books 1-5 of a 10 book saga of which my campaign is going to be relegated to being just book 6.

What about characters that aren't starting at level 1 (let's suppose someone's entering the group mid-campaign)? What about classes like Warlock which have important inciting events built-in to the class background?

[Tanarii]

I do not ascribe to the myth of player-character separation that you propose there.
Hahaha hoisted on my own petard!

[KorvinStarmast]

Hahaha hoisted on my own petard! :biggrin:

Alignment discussions and implementation can get a little cranky, so I am sorry if I have been coming on overly strong.
I think you and a few others here have taken a solid position over the years on teaching new players (to this edition in particular) to take the alignment, if chosen as the char gen chapters tell the new player to do, as the basis for motivations and not prescriptive requirements.
And that's a good approach given what's in the printed material.
I have the advantage of having tried to deal with that game element in a variety of different ways over the years, and what I tried to describe to you is what has worked out best over time.

As with any table choice, it's a bit of a moving target.

[Cheesegear]

I think you and a few others here have taken a solid position over the years on teaching new players (to this edition in particular) to take the alignment, if chosen as the char gen chapters tell the new player to do, as the basis for motivations and not prescriptive requirements.

As with any table choice, it's a bit of a moving target.

If I had my way (and I do, because it's my table), when creating a character, your Background is the first thing you pick, because your Background page gives new players a list of PIBFs to choose from, and your PIBFs can give you an idea of the species and class you might want to play. Once you know who you want to be, you can easily determine the mechanical characteristics, afterwards. Instead of the other way 'round, where you think of a mechanical character you want to play, and then jam a personality into it that doesn't fit.

Because D&D's difficulty is scaled, it makes no difference to me whether your character is mechanically weak or strong because I'll just adapt my encounters to whatever you are, as I see fit. But when it comes to roleplaying, that's the more difficult part and I'd much rather that a new player has that down, rather than the mechanical (PROTIP: Just roll d20s. If you can remember to roll the d20 every time to do anything, you've already got most of D&D covered). Because the roleplaying is what allows me to create a story in the first place.

When 4 out of 6 of my players submit backstories involving Devils...Okay. When given the freedom to come up with their own story, two-thirds of that table went to Devils as inciting incidents. Too easy. I know where this story goes, and because Devils can appear in any environment, I get to set my adventure in any biome I want. No matter where you go, there Devils are.

[Tanarii]

:biggrin:

Alignment discussions and implementation can get a little cranky, so I am sorry if I have been coming on overly strong.
I think you and a few others here have taken a solid position over the years on teaching new players (to this edition in particular) to take the alignment, if chosen as the char gen chapters tell the new player to do, as the basis for motivations and not prescriptive requirements.
And that's a good approach given what's in the printed material.
I have the advantage of having tried to deal with that game element in a variety of different ways over the years, and what I tried to describe to you is what has worked out best over time.

As with any table choice, it's a bit of a moving target.
Oh yes, the extreme edge of my views on alignment doesn't have much to do with covering the basics, which includes a multitude of ways it can be used effectively.

[Foolwise]

Since the topic has veered toward character alignment, I came up with an unique idea for my character's alignment. For starters, I will leave my alignment blank on my character sheet. And the reasoning behind that is-

My character will be a half-drow orphan who has no knowledge of her parents. To cope with this, she developed three scenarios as to why she was abandoned by them:

A (Good)- Her drow father rejected Lolth, escaped the Underdark only to find surface folk despised him just as much. Her mother was the first person to show him a kind face and they fell in love. But her mother's family ran her father off and forced her mother to give the baby up.

This origin instructs my character that no matter how cruel the world can be, love can still overcome the largest barriers.

B (Neutral)- Her highborn drow mother took her slave father to bed. The ruthless drow society see halfbreeds as a weakness, but instead of having an abortion, her mother vowed to kill the child before the slave. On that day, her mother swapped her for a newborn from a rival house and had her secreted away to the surface.

This origin teaches my character that she can be ruthless when it comes to protecting those who matter most.

C (Evil)- Lolth has set her sights on the surface and wants Drow warriors that can withstand sunlight. Her imprisoned mother was impregnated by lowborn drow eager to gain favor with the goddess. A large rescue effort freed the prisoners and returned them to the surface. The rescue went smoothly, almost too easily, as if Lolth knew the half-drow kids needed to be raised in sunlight to not develop a sensitivity to it.

This origin reminds her that the Spider Queen casts a long shadow and to be careful to not get tangled in her web.

And this is how I envision playing that out in the campaign:

My character will be an Ascendant Dragon Monk who will at some point multiclass into Trickery Cleric. As early as 3rd level, but no later than 8th. Aiming for 6th level, but the party/campaign will determine when. She'll have three goddesses to choose from for her devotion- Eilistraee, Hlal, and Lolth.

Now I know and my DM knows that my character will be a servant of Hlal, the CG dragon goddess of jokes, pranks, music and arts. But my DM is going to make the world hostile to drow, so it stands to reason the party may not fully trust my character. Also part of Hlal's lore is that her devotees typically hide their devotion of her from others. My god will remain a secret to my party. They will have to decide if my character always smiling and doing good things for NPCs means I am following Eilistraee or perhaps I am really a sleeper agent for my Spider mistress.

I will have tells for Hlal though. I refluffed the pet mouse from the Urchin background into a pet dusky nightingale as songbirds are noted followers of Hlal (some might construe a dusky nightingale for Eilistraee, but at least it isn't a pet spider). When I meditate during rests, I plan to use Dancing Lights to project a single white flame as my third eye while the other three lights form an open book, pages turning slowly in front of the third eye. Both the flame and book are symbols of Hlal. Likewise my character loves playing music and will be fond of playing pranks and telling jokes.

I've considered letting the DM decide my faith per his ruling on my in-game actions. Too good, Eilistraee. Too evil, Lolth. Somewhere in between, Hlal. But I rather have a dragon goddess for my dragon monk and don't want my half-drow character to get pigeonholed into her drow half.

It also could very well be that the other players never clue into this about my character, or more realistically, don't care. And that's fine. It will be an extra meta-game that I play solo and I am cool with that. Provided it doesn't distract from the main game.

I guess I failed at bullet pointing my background, hahaha.

[TyGuy]

Two things I personally have against extended backstory.
1. The real story is supposed to be the journey involving the PCs

2. The more I invest in a PC the more it's going to sting when the PC dies. Pouring all that time into a large satisfying backstory just makes me get too attached to the character. And it gives me too many ideas on where I'd like the character's arc to go. Which is always out of my control anyways and rarely where things head.
By getting a little too attached I don't play the game like the character is semi-expendable and it's a little more stressful trying to always play it safe and hold on to the character. I do far fewer cool things when playing a conservative approach.

I've just learned to keep it to 10 or fewer bullet points.

[DigoDragon]

It can be fun rolling on the Xanathar background tables if you want to aslo.

I agree! If I don't already have a concept in mind for my character's history, I roll on those tables for inspiration.

I think one of the most important things with a backstory is to have links/relationships to NPCs and maybe one other PC if possible. Those links really help a GM fill in his campaign setting and come up with hooks you can get invested in.



I tend to backfill my character backstories in play, since I prefer to play "side" characters. I tend to sit down with just a broad personality and maybe an important event in their backstory. If more detail is needed, I'll make something up on the spot.

I usually write a little bit of backstory and keep enough open to backfill later.

As an example, I have a doctor in a Fallout campaign who grew up in a small town where he picked up his medical skills from the local doctor living there. He was decently skilled with guns, but I didn't start off with where he learned to shoot. Over the course of the campaign, I filled in that his mother taught him how to use guns. And with the GM's help added that my character's mom was associated with a local chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel, which is where she got her training.

So now we have a hook for whenever our group might encounter a BoS group.



And you have to have a DM who cares.

Most definitely! Getting DM buy-in is super important to making that background come to life.

[furby076]

And this is mainly to scratch a personal itch as I doubt I will ever share more than a few main tidbits with the DM/

ne.

huh? you do realize your backstory does not count at ALL unless the DM reads and approves it, right?

If you are just making a story for yourself, sure, but then thats all it will be.

I tend to go 2-4 pages. My dm loves the stories

[Porcupinata]

huh? you do realize your backstory does not count at ALL unless the DM reads and approves it, right?

Sure it does - it informs my roleplaying by giving me a basis for who my character is and how they got to be who they are.

And that's the most important function of a backstory.

[Tanarii]

huh? you do realize your backstory does not count at ALL unless the DM reads and approves it, right?

If you are just making a story for yourself, sure, but then thats all it will be.
If it gives the players some motivations, it works. As long as they realize it's not canon until the DM either acts on it (or ignores it as trivial) when it comes up in play.

I've found that players that write backstories as a general but not universal rule try to include large campaign altering elements into the story. Not just personal stuff. If it wasn't for that, tacit approval in advance with a right to retcon if necessary would also work.


Sure it does - it informs my roleplaying by giving me a basis for who my character is and how they got to be who they are.

And that's the most important function of a backstory.Which can be entirely replaced with personality & motivations. All backstory adds is history. And for typical backstory lover, some kind of plot/narrative.

[Verble]

I enjoy writing but you should keep in mind that your story length is relative to your PC level. For a first level character it's usually less than a page, maybe up to two pages. For a fifth level it might be a couple extra pages. You don't want a full character arc, that's what the game is for. I think you're better served sharing possible ideas for a character arc with your DM but letting them decide specific answers to your PC queries.

After writing the background story I list a couple hooks at the end just to keep it simple and straightforward for my DM.

[Chronos]

On paper, what I give to the DM at the start, is somewhere between a paragraph and a page. But I go way beyond that, in my head.

For instance, my current character (when I'm not DMing) used to be a gladiator. He loved fighting and pleasing crowds, but hated being a slave, and so eventually led a slave uprising and won his freedom. Most of the other slaves founded a new village on the edge of the wilderness, but my character isn't the settling-down sort, so now he travels about fighting for fun, for audiences, or for good causes.

But behind the scenes, I have details on at least six other key members of that rebellion, and the relationships between them, and details about the structure of the town they founded, and so on. Most of it never comes up, but when it does, I know.

Or my character before that, a gnome ranger: He's the scion of a wealthy family, with the family tradition that they all do something to make a name for themselves when they come of age, and so he's going out to slay monsters and civilize a few more small corners of the wilds. He's highly patriotic and jingoistic, and condescending and dismissive to all of the tall races.

Behind the scenes: I asked the DM if his world already had a gnomish homeland, and it didn't. So I created a nation for my character to come from. To make it easier to incorporate into the rest of the DM's world, if it ever became relevant (it didn't, but almost did), I made it an island nation, that could be put into any convenient ocean. I worked out the form of government, including the name and full formal titles of the monarch, and the equivalent of her cabinet. I decided that they had recently won a war against orcs, and had fought another war to an inconclusive conclusion with the dwarven nation of one of the other PCs (no hard feelings; if Her Majesty was satisfied with the peace treaty, then so was he). I designed a flag. I know how he came to be so racist, and who it was who made his prized bespoke bow.

[furby076]

Because, as has been mentioned, the GM isn't really going to care about your background. In a conventional plot-driven game, they're not going to be carefully writing a plot that weaves in pieces of everyone's backstory. (Hell, they can't do that, intricate plots never survive contact with the players). If it's a free-form character-driven game, they probably have a dozen plates spinning already and don't want to be stuck with more--backstory stuff will come up if you pursue it, same as any other element in a sandbox.

Im gonna have to put a hard disagree on this comment and others who made similar comments. Each DM is different. Some may not care (especially AL games), and others may very much demand it to join their game. My current DM, has been playing D&D with his friends since he was early teens...back in the early 80s (i'm the young /new guy). They have aggregated their entire campaign history into a massive world (combination of grayhawk, FR, and tons of their homebrew stuff). Pictures, stories - from little kids to kings/queens. Every PC who has ever played, their back story, and did they survive to retirement or died an adventurer, all on a private wiki. You could spend a month pouring over the content and not coming close to scratching it. This DM wants rich stories and if you put the effort in, so will he.

This isn't my only DM who has done this. Of the 6 or 7 long term DMs i had, I've had 4 who wanted nice back stories. The other 3 were in highschool/college and we were too inexperienced to care for more than "omg LOOOTZ".

As always, ask your DM what he/she wants and what he/she will do with this information. Then decide if it matters to you or not and what you want to do.

[furby076]

Sure it does - it informs my roleplaying by giving me a basis for who my character is and how they got to be who they are.

And that's the most important function of a backstory.

Your behavior can be whatever you want it to be (within reason of the table rules), but if (example) your character was the child of evil powerful warlocks, who is trying to escape them, but you never got that story approved - then your DM (at least I would) will give you a raised eyebrow when you say "im keeping a low profile, because I don't want my parents to track me. You know, the level 25 demigod warlocks who want me to follow in their footsteps or be food".


If it gives the players some motivations, it works. As long as they realize it's not canon until the DM either acts on it (or ignores it as trivial) when it comes up in play.

I've found that players that write backstories as a general but not universal rule try to include large campaign altering elements into the story. Not just personal stuff. If it wasn't for that, tacit approval in advance with a right to retcon if necessary would also work.


That's the point, the stories need to be approved before they are set into the game - even if never used. It's different to say "i'm playing a character who is looking for fame, glory and riches" than saying "i'm playing a character who is looking for fame, glory and riches because his fathe is the greatest heroic paladin AND king of the realm, who commands vast armies, respect and money/magic items and he totally loves me and when he dies in 3 months from old age will leave me all his wealth". The first part is the short-n-sweet motivation and the other is the backstory and motivation.

[Tanarii]

That's the point, the stories need to be approved before they are set into the game - even if never used. It's different to say "i'm playing a character who is looking for fame, glory and riches" than saying "i'm playing a character who is looking for fame, glory and riches because his fathe is the greatest heroic paladin AND king of the realm, who commands vast armies, respect and money/magic items and he totally loves me and when he dies in 3 months from old age will leave me all his wealth". The first part is the short-n-sweet motivation and the other is the backstory and motivation.
Conversely if the backstory was "... because my family are poor farmers and I want to help them out" it might be trivial impact on the campaign setting, and pass without significant review required.

It's just that those kind of backstories are usually not the kind written by backstory lovers.

Also if that's not the Bond, as a DM I'd consider the family off limits for driving adventures, so to speak. Obviously it'll drive the character, but I shouldn't pull a "villain hunts down the family to put pressure on the character" scenario unless it's very organic to what was already happening.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I enjoy writing but you should keep in mind that your story length is relative to your PC level. For a first level character it's usually less than a page, maybe up to two pages. For a fifth level it might be a couple extra pages. You don't want a full character arc, that's what the game is for. I think you're better served sharing possible ideas for a character arc with your DM but letting them decide specific answers to your PC queries.

After writing the background story I list a couple hooks at the end just to keep it simple and straightforward for my DM.

I think you are on the money here, particularly with keeping a couple of key (but simple) ideas available to both the DM and other players. While a player may have a lot of info on their character, there is really no way the rest of the group can be expected to process all of that for each other character. Nor is it likely beneficial in most cases when the objective is to drive the story forward together.
There was a thread a while back regarding published character flaws, and there was a lot of support for flaws that were a lot simpler: fear of spiders, takes unnecessary risks, etc. I think the rest of initial character creation would benefit from the KISS philosophy then build from there.

[Porcupinata]

Your behavior can be whatever you want it to be (within reason of the table rules), but if (example) your character was the child of evil powerful warlocks, who is trying to escape them, but you never got that story approved - then your DM (at least I would) will give you a raised eyebrow when you say "im keeping a low profile, because I don't want my parents to track me. You know, the level 25 demigod warlocks who want me to follow in their footsteps or be food".

But that's an awfully unrealistic example.

Firstly, I'd never go for such a stupidly overblown background; and secondly (assuming we're dropping the ridiculous "level 25 demigod warlocks" bit and assuming my characters background is just that they ran away from home) I wouldn't be announcing stuff to the table like that. I'd just actually roleplay keeping a low profile, not drop out of character to describe in detail why I'm doing it. You know, following the whole "show, don't tell" thing.


Conversely if the backstory was "... because my family are poor farmers and I want to help them out" it might be trivial impact on the campaign setting, and pass without significant review required.

It's just that those kind of backstories are usually not the kind written by backstory lovers.

Exactly. Those of us for whom the backstory is primarily to motivate the character rather than to act as some kind of spotlight-hogging melodrama designed to force the character to be the centre of attention for chunks of the campaign tend to have much more mundane backgrounds.

[Tanarii]

But that's an awfully unrealistic example.Not really. Those kind of back stories are very common among backstory lovers IMX.


Exactly. Those of us for whom the backstory is primarily to motivate the character rather than to act as some kind of spotlight-hogging melodrama designed to force the character to be the centre of attention for chunks of the campaign tend to have much more mundane backgrounds.Good for you. Unfortunately the other fish in the sea have turned certain DMs (like me) wary towards backstory as a whole. Which sucks for folks like you.

In my case, it'd be a red flag when a player tries to give me a written backstory before a game begins, except I know I'm prejudicial against them so I step on myself and just tell them I'd prefer a list of 5e personality traits instead.

I recall one player announcing at his first session he was Vlad Shadowbane or some such, who's parents were killed by vampires and that's why he was a vengeance Paladin. I cringed, even though this was explicitly a campaign setting with werewolf and vampire infested forests, Eastern European flavor (for the name Vlad), and a strong church that explicitly produced lots of Paladins. Perfectly appropriate backstory, and he'd obviously read the campaign setting reference material I'd provided links to. But still, knee jerk internal response :smallamused:

[False God]

Pretty deep sometimes. I've written upwards of 10 pages for character "backstories" that help me get an idea of how my character behaves.

But I try to make a "cliffnotes" for my DM. It doesn't need to cover the specific details of the story I wrote. It just needs to cover the behaviors and ideas that my story helped me solidify.

[TyGuy]

This isn't my only DM who has done this. Of the 6 or 7 long term DMs i had, I've had 4 who wanted nice back stories. The other 3 were in highschool/college and we were too inexperienced to care for more than "omg LOOOTZ".

How long is a nice backstory? What's the average paragraph / page range?

[strangebloke]

Good for you. Unfortunately the other fish in the sea have turned certain DMs (like me) wary towards backstory as a whole. Which sucks for folks like you.

In my case, it'd be a red flag when a player tries to give me a written backstory before a game begins, except I know I'm prejudicial against them so I step on myself and just tell them I'd prefer a list of 5e personality traits instead.

I recall one player announcing at his first session he was Vlad Shadowbane or some such, who's parents were killed by vampires and that's why he was a vengeance Paladin. I cringed, even though this was explicitly a campaign setting with werewolf and vampire infested forests, Eastern European flavor (for the name Vlad), and a strong church that explicitly produced lots of Paladins. Perfectly appropriate backstory, and he'd obviously read the campaign setting reference material I'd provided links to. But still, knee jerk internal response :smallamused:

"Gosh that's a cringe backstory"
"I took almost all of it from your setting notes"
"Gosh I'm a cringe DM"

[GentlemanVoodoo]

I definitely jumped into the deep end this time. I am in the middle of fleshing it out and am currently sitting at 6 pages!!! I could break it down into three acts and I am in the middle of the 2nd act right now, so probably looking at 10-ish pages of backstory when all is written and done. Kinda nuts. Wait. No kinda about it.

Time is the real culprit here. I have been working on this character for over a month now. While I have a DM, we haven't found anyone else to play with and start the campaign. And this is mainly to scratch a personal itch as I doubt I will ever share more than a few main tidbits with the DM/PCs.

So how important is your backstory? Do you dip your toe in the water and roll off the tables? Play in the shallow end with key defining characteristics listed? Or fully submerged yourself... maybe not to the same depths as I have done.

I have learned over 20+ years of ttrpg's it really boils down to the game being played and also the group you are playing with. Games like Vampire the Masquerade by default do require a pretty good investment of character back story because that is how it is design. You can say also rules light games like FATE are in the same boat as well. However in most games like D&D backgrounds are largely forgotten. You could literally have some player just say "I'm Bob the fighter. I like fighting so I do fighting things." and that would be enough. The are some exceptions where heavy investment into a character background is done but that is largely dependent on your group and person running the game places value on such things.

But experience has taught me that if the game in question is one that does not require a detailed background to function, then just go with the elevator pitch description and call it a day.

[False God]

Woof, I feel like some folks here just aren't writers...which is weird.

Like, some of the ideas that a character being level 1 means nothing interesting has ever happened in their life is...weird. Or that the events must be so mundane as to be constrained to 1 page.

Like, I could write about that time I got into a bar fight and it'd be about 4 pages. There'd be setup, some character description, some dialogue, some setting description, so on. Not even verbose or wordy stuff. You'd get a good idea of Jake, that jerk who threw the first bunch, of his bro's Chad and Chad 2, how I was feeling when I went to the bar alone, that nice bartender who's always quick on my drinks and understands that you don't make a Moscow Mule with sweet ginger beer.

Or maybe that one time I was out tilling the fields and found a body! That could certainly be a 10-pager if I put some real thought and effort into it, some side notes about my family, my house, the land we work, the kind of life we live.

---Note these things did not happen to me. But they might have happened to a level 1 farm-kid who lives in a small town with a bar.

"Interesting" is a matter of perspective. There's a reason some people like Star Trek more than Lord of the Rings, some stuff interests one sort of people and other stuff interests other sorts of people(Some of those people are wrong but still.). "Mundane" incidents can be made interesting with creative storytelling and that's the real burden I put on my players.

As a DM I tell my players to write whatever length backstory they want, but to also provide a character synopsis. However I will not read more than 4 pages (I like reading hence the IMO, generous, page limit) unless you make it interesting. I do a lot of shared world-building with my players (if they're interested) and I'm happy to use their backstory to define their hometown, even their homeland and even let that player/character take the lead if/when we adventure to their land.

I enjoy giving my DM hooks, and I enjoy when my players give me hooks. I understand a lot of people play things close to the chest due to abusive DMs murdering friends and family, burning down towns, etc... I can only tell people that's not what I'm going to do and let them decide to trust me or not. I hope they choose to, or at least grow to, otherwise there will probably be gameplay problems.

I've really outgrown wanting completely disconnected characters to plop into fully developed settings. I want characters I can work with, and players who are willing to work with me.

[strangebloke]

Woof, I feel like some folks here just aren't writers...which is weird.

Like, some of the ideas that a character being level 1 means nothing interesting has ever happened in their life is...weird. Or that the events must be so mundane as to be constrained to 1 page.

Like, I could write about that time I got into a bar fight and it'd be about 4 pages. There'd be setup, some character description, some dialogue, some setting description, so on. Not even verbose or wordy stuff. You'd get a good idea of Jake, that jerk who threw the first bunch, of his bro's Chad and Chad 2, how I was feeling when I went to the bar alone, that nice bartender who's always quick on my drinks and understands that you don't make a Moscow Mule with sweet ginger beer.

Or maybe that one time I was out tilling the fields and found a body! That could certainly be a 10-pager if I put some real thought and effort into it, some side notes about my family, my house, the land we work, the kind of life we live.

---Note these things did not happen to me. But they might have happened to a level 1 farm-kid who lives in a small town with a bar.

"Interesting" is a matter of perspective. There's a reason some people like Star Trek more than Lord of the Rings, some stuff interests one sort of people and other stuff interests other sorts of people(Some of those people are wrong but still.). "Mundane" incidents can be made interesting with creative storytelling and that's the real burden I put on my players.

As a DM I tell my players to write whatever length backstory they want, but to also provide a character synopsis. However I will not read more than 4 pages (I like reading hence the IMO, generous, page limit) unless you make it interesting. I do a lot of shared world-building with my players (if they're interested) and I'm happy to use their backstory to define their hometown, even their homeland and even let that player/character take the lead if/when we adventure to their land.

I enjoy giving my DM hooks, and I enjoy when my players give me hooks. I understand a lot of people play things close to the chest due to abusive DMs murdering friends and family, burning down towns, etc... I can only tell people that's not what I'm going to do and let them decide to trust me or not. I hope they choose to, or at least grow to, otherwise there will probably be gameplay problems.

I've really outgrown wanting completely disconnected characters to plop into fully developed settings. I want characters I can work with, and players who are willing to work with me.
I don't really feel like you're actually disagreeing with anyone here lol. I think we'd all agree that its fine to have a backstory of sorts...

the problem is when the backstory IS the story. The problem is when after reading the backstory, I feel as though the character's story is complete, like there's no more to be told. Because of course, the premise of the game is that they're experiencing/creating a story together as a result of their actions. The problem is when the backstory is written in such a way that it effectively writes the character out of the narrative.

For example, I had a player show up with a grouchy, misanthropic warlock who hated people and hated communicating. She... wasn't much fun for anyone to RP with, because she'd shut down any attempts at communication. Her backstory was detailed an interesting, but it set her up as someone who had no reason to actually participate in the sorts of adventures DND is made of.

[False God]

I don't really feel like you're actually disagreeing with anyone here lol. I think we'd all agree that its fine to have a backstory of sorts...
It's the "of sorts" I'm taking issue with in a surprising number of posts. About every other one in this thread that has suggested that a new character is a nobody with no interesting life events whose backstory should be constrained to less than a page. Their entire being summed up in about 5 sentences or less. I'd quote them all, but I feel that'd be excessive.

This problem

the problem is when the backstory IS the story. The problem is when after reading the backstory, I feel as though the character's story is complete, like there's no more to be told. Because of course, the premise of the game is that they're experiencing/creating a story together as a result of their actions. The problem is when the backstory is written in such a way that it effectively writes the character out of the narrative.

And this problem

For example, I had a player show up with a grouchy, misanthropic warlock who hated people and hated communicating. She... wasn't much fun for anyone to RP with, because she'd shut down any attempts at communication. Her backstory was detailed an interesting, but it set her up as someone who had no reason to actually participate in the sorts of adventures DND is made of.

Are not the same problem and I don't see how they have anything to do with each other. A player (who may have been a-social) made an a-social character that was no fun to play with. The backstory was clearly interesting but their manner of play was not. This is a player problem, not a backstory problem.

I tend to be on watch for people who want to make strong silent lone wolves. They tend to be pretty poor members of parties, making anti-party decisions, attacking party members when that party-member makes a decision they disagree with, generally mistreating NPCs because they're "just that kinda guy" or whatever. The fact that they have an interesting backstory isn't really relevant, the ultimate player takeaway from writing that backstory is essentially "This guy's a jerk who doesn't like people." and the little lightbulb didn't come on in their head that maybe that means the character is a poor fit for party-based gameplay.

I'm not saying every backstory is great. I'm just saying that being level 1, being a poor farmer kid, being "new" doesn't mean interesting events haven't happened. It doesn't mean the character is a blank slate just waiting for the story to make them interesting.

[Amdy_vill]

I definitely jumped into the deep end this time. I am in the middle of fleshing it out and am currently sitting at 6 pages!!! I could break it down into three acts and I am in the middle of the 2nd act right now, so probably looking at 10-ish pages of backstory when all is written and done. Kinda nuts. Wait. No kinda about it.

Time is the real culprit here. I have been working on this character for over a month now. While I have a DM, we haven't found anyone else to play with and start the campaign. And this is mainly to scratch a personal itch as I doubt I will ever share more than a few main tidbits with the DM/PCs.

So how important is your backstory? Do you dip your toe in the water and roll off the tables? Play in the shallow end with key defining characteristics listed? Or fully submerged yourself... maybe not to the same depths as I have done.

I look at it like this. first, I ask my dm if I do not already know how much my back story will be involved. if they avoid involving backstories ill make my back story more of where I'm from. nothing deep. if they are going to play into backstories, Ill start with 6 x complicated by y story hooks. Example: I'm from The order of the rose, but I'm on a pilgrimage to enlightenment. creating several points of interest, as wells as explanations for why I'm not at that local, as well as adding complications to the personality of my character. then I flesh these points out into something of a reasonable length for my dm to read.

6 pages is a lot for most DMS. I know plenty of DMS who would ask for a rewrite or ignore your work at that length. you can always make a long backstory for yourself but you should give your dm something reasonable to read. I try to avoid more than a page and a half with most dms.

[Reach Weapon]

It's the "of sorts" I'm taking issue with in a surprising number of posts. About every other one in this thread that has suggested that a new character is a nobody with no interesting life events whose backstory should be constrained to less than a page. Their entire being summed up in about 5 sentences or less. I'd quote them all, but I feel that'd be excessive.
Writing circles and book clubs are great. Authoring a character is a different activity than playing a game with one, and after a point investment in the former can interfere with the latter, the group and player, too.
I might also add that formative events are nice, but usually the best parts of a roleplaying game character are present tense: the quirks, the attitudes, the enthusiasms, and even the numerical characteristics that they literally bring to the table.

[False God]

Writing circles and book clubs are great. Authoring a character is a different activity than playing a game with one, and after a point investment in the former can interfere with the latter, the group and player, too.
I might also add that formative events are nice, but usually the best parts of a roleplaying game character are present tense: the quirks, the attitudes, the enthusiasms, and even the numerical characteristics that they literally bring to the table.

These are intertwined elements. I'll argue you shouldn't write a character before you have some stats. And you probably shouldn't put your stats on your sheet before you have some character concept.

I'm not saying people can't over-write. But I am saying a substantial number of posts seem to be arguing for characters that are little more than blank sheets of paper. Maybe some are lined, or have grids, or are college ruled, or are made of recycled paper, but they're all equally empty and the posts seem to rely heavily on the idea that "something interesting may happen at some point to fill in that sheet", but don't seem to mention that the opposite "nothing interesting happened to me" is equally probable (especially in sandbox games).

I've learned from IRL that you should never rely on "something, sometime, maybe."

If a character doesn't fit with a party or at a specific game, THATS OKAY. But IME, when you have a defined character, you can make those sort of decisions. I've had a number of characters choose to leave the group because they were just a bad fit (not mathematically, but on an interpersonal level). I then got to make the decision of "Do I want to play with these players now that I know what sort of characters they make?" and I've walked away from some tables over it.

But coming in with an essentially blank character? More often than not I've found myself stuck in games I don't really enjoy with players I don't really like. Because I didn't have a sold enough direction and I had to, as so many posts suggest "play through" enough of the game until I realize it wasn't for me.

Coming to the table with a clearly defined character doesn't just provide clarity for the character, it also provides clarity for the player on what sort of experience they want to have. At least, IMHO.

[Carlobrand]

...So how important is your backstory? ...
Mine? It isn't, not beyond what's mandated in the rule book. It's not something that's rewarded or encouraged here. I usually play the party wizard, which means I'm usually focused forward: how to learn as much as I can possibly learn, acquire as much magical knowledge and skill as I can, that kind of thing. I'm good, but I haven't entirely ruled out the option of becoming a lich in the distant future, decades from now, once everyone else has grown old and retired, so I can continue to acquire knowledge without death getting in the way. :xykon:

[OldTrees1]

How long is a nice backstory? What's the average paragraph / page range?

In my opinion: "Mu. The question of length is the wrong question."

What mattes is the content, not the length. False God gives a useful example for me to build off of.


Woof, I feel like some folks here just aren't writers...which is weird.

Like, some of the ideas that a character being level 1 means nothing interesting has ever happened in their life is...weird. Or that the events must be so mundane as to be constrained to 1 page.

Like, I could write about that time I got into a bar fight and it'd be about 4 pages. There'd be setup, some character description, some dialogue, some setting description, so on. Not even verbose or wordy stuff. You'd get a good idea of Jake, that jerk who threw the first bunch, of his bro's Chad and Chad 2, how I was feeling when I went to the bar alone, that nice bartender who's always quick on my drinks and understands that you don't make a Moscow Mule with sweet ginger beer.

An English Major and a Philosophy Major witness your bar fight. For some reason they feel compelled to write a description of it. When they are done writing, they notice it is a particularly windy day. So the English Major offers their 10 page summary as a literal pager weight to prevent the Philosophy Major's 1 paragraph summary from being blown away.

Both are writers but they ended up with different lengths due to a different tone and writing style. The English Major's was full of "show don't tell". The Philosophy Major's was concise.


@False God
I did notice some of the posts you are replying to. Thank you for adding your perspective. I am very concise and focus on the present/future parts of characterization, so I would generally have short backstories. However interesting things can happen before level 1. For example:

Dun only becomes a journeyman Dungeon Tour Guide at level 3, but before level 1 they were training in dungeons. No so mundane.
Lux the ex guild thief, was a Guild Thief that burgled magic items for the guild before level 1.
Granny is an crone that has been living in the sewers as a loyal minion of a particular ratfolk.

Now, I did not write pages about those past events. However different writing styles would have.

[Reach Weapon]

But coming in with an essentially blank character?
Which is bringing more to the table:
The player who brings a publication ready backstory novella on their character sheet, or
the character that readily embraces large risks and convoluted machinations such that they only enter dining establishments through the kitchen and eat food prepared for other people, even though the table, the DM and even the player themselves has no idea why?

[False God]

In my opinion: "Mu. The question of length is the wrong question."

What mattes is the content, not the length. False God gives a useful example for me to build off of.



An English Major and a Philosophy Major witness your bar fight. For some reason they feel compelled to write a description of it. When they are done writing, they notice it is a particularly windy day. So the English Major offers their 10 page summary as a literal pager weight to prevent the Philosophy Major's 1 paragraph summary from being blown away.

Both are writers but they ended up with different lengths due to a different tone and writing style. The English Major's was full of "show don't tell". The Philosophy Major's was concise.


@False God
I did notice some of the posts you are replying to. Thank you for adding your perspective. I am very concise and focus on the present/future parts of characterization, so I would generally have short backstories. However interesting things can happen before level 1. For example:

Dun only becomes a journeyman Dungeon Tour Guide at level 3, but before level 1 they were training in dungeons. No so mundane.
Lux the ex guild thief, was a Guild Thief that burgled magic items for the guild before level 1.
Granny is an crone that has been living in the sewers as a loyal minion of a particular ratfolk.

Now, I did not write pages about those past events. However different writing styles would have.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I don't conceptualize "the brief about my character" that provides name, age, some flaws, bonds, whatever as backstory. That's what I'd call "the character sheet", heck, 5e even has spots for all this info AND a little blurb about the character! I wouldn't even really regard an abstract (in the context of peer-reviewed papers) as a "backstory". Maybe a "background", but not a "backstory".

I'd take a "day in the life". I'd take a brief rundown of what made the character get into adventuring. I'd take "this is the 6 minutes before I joined the party".

I'm less interested in reading:
Bob is 43. Bob likes to fight stuff. Bob drinks too much. Bob once went to a party. Bob ate a dog once.

Than I am seeing that stuff contextualized. It's one thing I don't like about the flaws and bonds and ideals system. It's better than alignment, but not much. Unless you're using the exact words and exact examples spelled out under each bond, flaw, or ideal; all of those things have subjective meanings based on personal experiences. When a person writes a backstory I get to see the context of how they define loyalty, kindness, and chivalry. I get to see the context of what/why Bob likes to fight, what/why Bob drinks too much, why he's only ever been to one party, and why he ate a dog.

Those contextualized responses are what I, as DM, can work with. They also give the player more clarity. Bob who fights everything is obnoxious and annoying and not welcome at the table. Bob who goes out of his way to eat dogs in search of the perfect dog flavor is obnoxious and annoying and not welcome at the table.

Bob who likes to fight because it distracts him from drinking. Bob who drinks too much because it distracts him from the death of his wife. Bob who had to eat the family dog as he starved to death trapped under his collapsed home which also killed his wife...is the kind of thing I'm looking for. It also helps Potential-Player-You get a good grasp on how you're going to play your character and maybe understand why it is or isn't a good fit for the table.

I could live with those lines I suppose. I'd like more but there's no stick with me. Potential-Player-You don't do it you don't do it. I'm disappointed, but it's your call. But I'll give you a level if you write me at least a page (10-12pt, single-spaced, Times New Roman-or-similar, standard margins). ;-)

[False God]

Which is bringing more to the table:
The player who brings a publication ready backstory novella on their character sheet, or
the character that readily embraces large risks and convoluted machinations such that they only enter dining establishments through the kitchen and eat food prepared for other people, even though the table, the DM and even the player themselves has no idea why?

IME?

The first one. His character may be tropey and the player may be a little too verbose but they're a character who knows what they're doing, why they're doing it, what they want to gain, what they're willing to lose and how far they'll go. At least at this moment in time.
-I played with this guy. His character was a half-vampire half-werewolf whose entire family was killed and now he's hunted for "reasons". Tropey? Heck yeah. Verbose? Heck yeah. But I can work with this.

The latter is likely to be random and disruptive. They have no goals other than what's in front of them, their approaches are unpredictable and obnoxious. They are often antagonistic to the party's goals by simply existing. Their uncertainty principle is so high they're likely to cause division between players and party members alike. When asked why they did something cruel, rude, stupid or obnoxious their likely response is (translated from troll) "Cause I like to stir the pot."
-I played with this guy. His character was a CN Cthulhu warlock who had a funny mask made out of a dead squid that he wore under an oversized hood. He'd sneak up on people and then ooga-booga-booga them. Party members. Bar patrons. Random townsfolk. Everything he did was annoying, obnoxious, and for no purpose than to "rile people up." I got tired of having NPCs throw him out of places so I threw him out of the game.

I have no desire to play with that character or that person.

[strangebloke]

It's the "of sorts" I'm taking issue with in a surprising number of posts. About every other one in this thread that has suggested that a new character is a nobody with no interesting life events whose backstory should be constrained to less than a page. Their entire being summed up in about 5 sentences or less. I'd quote them all, but I feel that'd be excessive.

This problem


And this problem


Are not the same problem and I don't see how they have anything to do with each other. A player (who may have been a-social) made an a-social character that was no fun to play with. The backstory was clearly interesting but their manner of play was not. This is a player problem, not a backstory problem.

The problems are related however. Character archetypes that work well for the protagonist of a narrative don't necessarily play well in an ensemble cast. When someone makes a lone ranger I can't help but see tendencies gained from novel-writing.

Being anti-social is only an element of it.


I tend to be on watch for people who want to make strong silent lone wolves. They tend to be pretty poor members of parties, making anti-party decisions, attacking party members when that party-member makes a decision they disagree with, generally mistreating NPCs because they're "just that kinda guy" or whatever. The fact that they have an interesting backstory isn't really relevant, the ultimate player takeaway from writing that backstory is essentially "This guy's a jerk who doesn't like people." and the little lightbulb didn't come on in their head that maybe that means the character is a poor fit for party-based gameplay.

I'm not saying every backstory is great. I'm just saying that being level 1, being a poor farmer kid, being "new" doesn't mean interesting events haven't happened. It doesn't mean the character is a blank slate just waiting for the story to make them interesting.
Yeah I'd agree with all this. My only point is that even if you do have a rich and detailed backstory at level 1, you don't want to make it an obstacle toward the story that occurs during the campaign. One element of this is expecting your DM and your fellow players to read a lot.

Obviously this varies from table to table. I try to work characters into my setting as much as possible.

[Temperjoke]

I think you can write whatever length background you feel is necessary for you to get into the character and act/react like they would. Just don't be disappointed if no one else is interested in more than a TL;DR summary.

[False God]

The problems are related however. Character archetypes that work well for the protagonist of a narrative don't necessarily play well in an ensemble cast. When someone makes a lone ranger I can't help but see tendencies gained from novel-writing.

Being anti-social is only an element of it.

But that's not an issue of bad or too much backstory. It's just an issue of the wrong character. Big backstory, short backstory, seen plenty of people bring the wrong character to the table.

The lone Worf is IME, much more common in low-backstory games. It's easier to say "no" when asked on the fly about family or friends or goals than it is to pull creative stuff out of thin air.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As a DM who is big on worldbuilding, my favorite backstories are those we wrote together after session 1. Often as we discovered them during play.

Generally I ask for players to have the big things (Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)[1] and a few paragraph description of their basic motivations and background, as well as an idea of where in the game world they're from[2]. Examples from my current game:


Dil Husty grew up in the port town of Fuhino on the northern coast of the Serpent Sea. She spent her youth fishing and sailing - and generally getting into mischief. Uncle Mikham, a tavern keeper, nurtured her musical talent, and, taught her a few arcane secrets and some lore.

Dil hired on as a lookout / deckhand on the good ship Windbreaker, whose captain sometimes traded and sometimes raided. He styled himself a Gentleman of Fortune. She hoped one day to be a Lady of Fortune, but her career was interrupted during her twenty second summer. One night, after Windbreaker ended a raucous port visit to Tarad'am, a notorious Ship Folk pirate ship called The Scarlet Pearl overtook and boarded them - putting all to the sword. She was the last one standing, beset by saber and dagger at the starboard rail. Unleashing her final arcane reserves in a burst of thunder, she went over the side rather than be taken and sold into slavery – as they had threatened to do to her.

She swam for her life. Two days later she washed ashore near O’pola. A pair of triton scouts had found her - a Surfacer - swimming out to sea under the moonlight. They guided her landward. Losing her shipmates – her second family – was devastating blow. Sitting on the focs'l of an evening, leading the rest of the crew in songs, was no longer possible. Afraid to bring trouble to her family she traveled north, away from the sea, earning room and board by performing at the odd tavern, or, by persuading folks to share their food with her in exchange for a story or song.

She joined a wagon caravan heading North. The caravan master wore a brooch on his cloak: the dragon-headed ouroboros, gold on black. He was recruiting in the name of Forever and Beyond. Arriving in Sheplyn, she joined with Sargas of Tor-Elan, Tsun Azur, Crow, and Morgan to help Lord Sumter sort out his problems in Honedaxe, a seaside port town. It seemed like a good idea at the time. One day she’ll pay back the slavers who destroyed her ship and killed her shipmates. One day...



A fang-kin half elf 5'8" tall. He appears to be in his mid 20s, with dark black hair that grows like a lion's mane, and a tight black beard. His eyes are one of his most striking features, and almost immediately noticeable. They glow with the power of his very soul. His left eye is a bright white gold, while his right appears to be a sickly green. He appears to be very thin, with scars along his hands and arms.

Born to a minor noble house in the city of Asai'ka, none knew the secret of his, nor his father's, true origins. Inheriting the celestial bloodline from his grandfather, he was naturally gifted with a powerful soul and the magic of the divine. He began his travels to search for his missing father. Unfortunately, his search was cut short after being captured and sold into slavery. He spent years being forced to work for a group of pirates (the Gor'ka) on the shores of Moon's Fall Vengeance. He was later rescued by a group of heroes going by the name Enigma, but not before suffering a terrible curse, that corrupts him during times of stress.

A diadem frames his forehead that holds his hair back from his face. He wears a form fitting top with intricate golden colored flame designs along a collar, black shoulders, and white around the chest and back. He wears the lower half of a robe and sash, continuing the golden flame-like designs around it. The lower layer is black, while the upper is white. With well made but simple leather boots to complete the outfit. On his left middle finger, he wears a ring with a red gem that gleams in the light while channeling magic.



Rune doesn't remember much of his past. He vaguely remembers where he was from, and vague memories of serving...something and gaining his current abilities. After an amount of time he can't remember, he "woke up" on Noefra (near Godsfall) with no memories of his life, save for a locket with a rune carved into it. He wandered the continent for a few months before making his way to Honedaxe and meeting the rest of Enigma and helping them with their current job. Afterwards, he decided to stick around.

He likes his new friends, even though they confuse him quite often.



Tsun Azur is a paladin in service to Sakara, who joined the party after being 'kidnapped' by Crow. From that point on, Tsun decided to stick with the party. The party realized that Tsun was a capable fighter, after the halfling crushed the kneecap of a bandit. From then on, Tsun became known for his tendency to break the kneecaps of his enemies.

Tsun hates being mistaken for a child or being called short, unless he can use it to his advantage (it is a lot of restraint though to not yell at the person). In most cases, he despises it when people call him short and takes extreme offense in it, often yelling at them. Still, he isn’t inherently violent unless provoked by someone or something.

Tsun is about 2.5 ft tall and is abnormally short, even for halfling standards. He is fairly slender, with blonde hair and blue eyes. He wears brighter colors and carries a shield that he uses to protect those he cares about. He also has a mastiff named Ebony, who he rides into battle.

Tsun is usually more timid in public and uncomfortable around crowds, especially with women. There are a very few women he actually likes, but he does not usually like women. In battle though, he is far more efficient and a bit brutal, preferring to kneecap those who anger him (especially if they call him short). He is very attached to the party and respects him.


All of these have changed throughout play; we've fleshed out pieces, discovered that some pieces weren't actually true (Zeke's green eye isn't demonic in origin, but something more sinister entirely), as well as figured out who those people were. And in doing so, we've built bonds between the characters and the world, tying them in to the events and to the world itself. Rune, of course, has gotten the most fleshing out--his was the most vague. We've had vignettes showing where he's from and who he's bonded to; heck, we even had a girl show up who turned out to be his "childhood friend". And he's got a talking (ok, snarking) cat living in his shadow and occasionally popping out for a bit of the "good stuff" (enchanted catnip...long story).

We're currently in the planning stages for Campaign 2, and there's lots of work going into backstories. This time with my active guidance and assistance; we're collaboratively figuring out what's in that part of the world. Players are adding things by the choices they make--we just recently discovered that there's an offshoot species of dragon and dragon knights that are bonded to them. And we'll discover yet other pieces of the backstory during play. It's set in a completely different, completely untouched (by players) part of the world, so we'll all see what's there as we encounter it.

Edit: I forgot to mention that a player handing me a multi-page, detailed backstory without collaborative writing isn't much use. Because I'll have to make significant changes to it to make it fit into the world. I'm the only expert on the setting; even though I have several hundred articles on various pieces of it on the setting wiki, most of that is comparatively high level. And I've got particular aesthetics, so it's just not going to work to ab initio write up a new chunk. I'm more than willing to work with people to discover what's there (the more we can do collectively, the less I have to do myself :smallbiggrin:), but it's got to fit what's already there. And most of that's in an inchoate state in my head. And needs to have enough connections so that I can build from it. The existence of a village, by itself, does nothing for me unless it connects to the rest of the pieces and gives good themes/ideas to work from.

[1] I don't ask about alignment--if they want to write it down, go ahead. It's not a cosmological force in my setting whatsoever.
[2] Knowing where someone's from tells me a large chunk of what they'd know without a roll. And what would be familiar and what would be unknown.

[OldTrees1]

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I don't conceptualize "the brief about my character" that provides name, age, some flaws, bonds, whatever as backstory. That's what I'd call "the character sheet", heck, 5e even has spots for all this info AND a little blurb about the character! I wouldn't even really regard an abstract (in the context of peer-reviewed papers) as a "backstory". Maybe a "background", but not a "backstory".

There might have been a miscommunication. I was giving examples of how interesting events can happen before 1st level. Those were not stories. They were examples to support your claim that interesting events could happen before 1st level.

However I would mention that different writing styles can stretch a story out or make a story more concise. I can tell the story of Lux's career path in 1 paragraph and you can tell the story of your bar fight in 4 pages.


Since I prefer to focus on the present/future* when describing characterization, I dislike the Flaw/Ideal/Bond system from 5E because it lacks contextualization of those present aspects. Context does not need to be wordy, but it is more nuanced than 4 dropdown menus.

*When a Vorlon asks "Who are you?" does your answer focus on your past, your present, or your future. Contextualizing characterization helps someone learn about the character, however the focus can shift depending on the person.

[Reach Weapon]

The player who brings a publication ready backstory novella on their character sheet, or
the character that readily embraces large risks and convoluted machinations such that they only enter dining establishments through the kitchen and eat food prepared for other people, even though the table, the DM and even the player themselves has no idea why?I played with this guy.
That's unlikely on multiple levels, not the least of which being the latter is the main hook of a beloved creation from a player who routinely conjures wholly lived-in characters from a collection of quirks, enthusiasms, catch phrases and the like, while the incident lead to it being widely agreed that the author (who would have words regarding where you went with publication ready) would not be playing any more dice-driven roleplaying games.

Speaking more directly to your experience, while I'm not convinced backstory crafting even correlates strongly with characters as played, I can see how DMs who value that would tend to head tables where chaotic new-troll characters do not flourish. I can also see how players who conform to the expectations and norms of the table, including doing their writing assignments, would be more likely to do the same for other standards.

[TyGuy]

In my opinion: "Mu. The question of length is the wrong question."

What mattes is the content, not the length. False God gives a useful example for me to build off of.


I think taking 4 pages to describe a bar fight is missing the context of a backstory.

Every table is different, of course. But there are aggregates that form norms. E.g. there is no single perfect party size. But if you poll the community you might see a nice bell curve centered on 5 with 4 & 6 in the bulk, 3 & 7 making a decent showing on the edges, and everything else as fringe minority. There isn't a "correct" party size, but there is a normal party size range.

Likewise, there is probably a range of backstory length that can be considered normal "good backstory length". And I have a hard time believing it's anything over 10 pages.

[Hytheter]

Woof, I feel like some folks here just aren't writers...
...
Like, I could write about that time I got into a bar fight and it'd be about 4 pages.

Are you writing a backstory or a book? If you're really a writer you should understand that different situations call for different levels of detail. Your DM isn't sitting down to read a novel, they just need to make sure your background fits their world and look for key details that they can create hooks from. If you bury that stuff in four pages of prose you're just making things difficult - condense the important stuff into a more usable form, even a dot point summary.

[Tanarii]

Personally, some of biggest problems I've faced at the table have come from players, or worse DMs, who are (or possibly just think they are) writers. And don't leave that behind when they approach a game of D&D.

Given it's unlikely that many of them have been published, it's possible the problem I'm running into is they just think they're writers, and if they were better it wouldn't have caused problems. But I'm not willing to bet on that. I think it's approaching the game with the mindset of writing stories.

[OldTrees1]

I think taking 4 pages to describe a bar fight is missing the context of a backstory.

Every table is different, of course. But there are aggregates that form norms. E.g. there is no single perfect party size. But if you poll the community you might see a nice bell curve centered on 5 with 4 & 6 in the bulk, 3 & 7 making a decent showing on the edges, and everything else as fringe minority. There isn't a "correct" party size, but there is a normal party size range.

Likewise, there is probably a range of backstory length that can be considered normal "good backstory length". And I have a hard time believing it's anything over 10 pages.

Are you asking about norms or about what a nice backstory would be? Length is not a good metric for the utility of a piece of writing*. Rather the right length for a bit of writing depends on what you are trying to say and how you are trying to say it.

If you are trying to get a normal range for how long a nice backstory is, then you are going to be collapsing several relevant variables because the right length is dependent on the subject matter and the writing style.

How long is a nice backstory? Mu.
How long are backstories typically? I don't know. Longer than mine.
How long are nice backstories typically? Probably Mu.

*Unless you are using it as a paper weight or to cut onions.

[strangebloke]

But that's not an issue of bad or too much backstory. It's just an issue of the wrong character. Big backstory, short backstory, seen plenty of people bring the wrong character to the table.

The lone Worf is IME, much more common in low-backstory games. It's easier to say "no" when asked on the fly about family or friends or goals than it is to pull creative stuff out of thin air.

Long backstories are a product of a solo writing experience that gives insight to the inner workings of a character's mind. Lone wolf characters are very appealing in such a medium.

[Reach Weapon]

In fairness, the lone Worf is not a merry man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvAHaz_0gP0).

[Cheesegear]

One of my players has an idea, and wants to DM a one-shot.

Since D&D is easy, and it doesn't matter what you play, I random rolled my character using a table I use to make up NPCs:
Species: Elf; Class; Thug/Veteran. Race; Wood Elf. Wood Elf Thug/Veteran Fighter.
+2 Dex, +1 Wis...Uhh...I pick Samurai.
My group had a good laugh about how I'll be an Elf Samurai, the most weab thing you can ever be. That I random rolled. [Deity] is laughing.

As a DM, I'm expected to play anything. So I picked Outlander, then random rolled everything.
Origin: Exile/Outcast.
Personality: Money and manners is dumb.
Ideals: Change and Glory (Chaotic Neutral).
Bonds: Bear children to sustain my tribe (not sure how that fits with being in exile, but okay)
Flaws: No room for caution in a life meant to be lived.

30 minutes later I had this:

As the second-born son to his family, Verek was raised as a bodyguard to his older brother, who would eventually inherit [Minor/Major Noble Title]. As part of his duties to his older brother, Verek was expected to travel and observe other societies and cultures for potential threats and dangers to his primary. As part of an Elven culture, Verek saw quickly that his own culture was stagnating and dying, and quickly grew enamoured of other species and cultures that were more...Alive. As part of his interactions and liaising with other guards and paramilitary organisations during envoys, Verek quickly fell in love during a diplomatic envoy to [Human Society] with [human woman]. Over the years, Verek built a relationship with the woman, until eventually he asked his brother for permission to marry her.

His elder brother said ‘No.’ Dalliances with humans are fine for a while. But you’re part of the [Minor/Major Noble] family. Yes. It is your duty to provide children - eventually. But those children should be Elves, definitely not less-than. After a significant argument, the ultimatum was given; Your love, or your Family. Heartbroken, Verek said that was exactly what he felt was wrong with [Elf Place], and chose love over his brother, and his family. Breaking his brother’s heart, and abandoning his duty to protect his older brother from danger. During his journey to [Human Town/Village] with his fiance, make plans and the Gods laugh. His cart was attacked by Bandits. Verek was used to protecting his brother, who had Elven weapons’ training, and Keen Eyes, with a similar upbringing to himself. His bond with his brother had lasted over a century. Protecting a human woman, however, who had never specifically trained with him, and lacked his keen elven eyes for ambush...Was killed. Verek, in a rage, slew the rest of the bandits and took up their axes and proceeded to butcher the humans.

In grief, Verek tried to return home. But the damage was done. His brother’s heart was already broken, and it would be a long time before he could even contemplate forgiving the betrayal. But, Elves’ lives are long, and family is forever, even if they break up from time to time. His family broken, his love destroyed. Life moves on. Life has to move on. Maybe one day his brother will learn to forgive. It might take decades, it might take a century. Time heals all wounds, and if Elves have anything, it's time. Elves are not Dwarves - they don’t hold grudges forever. That’s not the way life should work. Until that time, however, Verek searches for a new Family, a new love, until one day his brother will welcome him back home.

The prospective DM said that was way too long for something he only expected to be one-shot and arguably nothing I wrote will ever come up.
But, at least I'll know how to play my character.

[False God]

Long backstories are a product of a solo writing experience that gives insight to the inner workings of a character's mind. Lone wolf characters are very appealing in such a medium.

My experience at tables tells me you're wrong. Maybe your experience tells you I'm wrong. I dunno, but this argument is clearly going in circles. You say "long backstories produce anti-party lone wolf types". I say "short backstories produce emo my-family-is-dead chaotic-neutral jerks". So lets just call it.


Are you writing a backstory or a book? If you're really a writer you should understand that different situations call for different levels of detail. Your DM isn't sitting down to read a novel, they just need to make sure your background fits their world and look for key details that they can create hooks from. If you bury that stuff in four pages of prose you're just making things difficult - condense the important stuff into a more usable form, even a dot point summary.

Just to be clear, and as I pointed out earlier, a "dot point summary" is already included on the 5E character sheet.

https://content.instructables.com/ORIG/F32/Y0FV/J8F5Q3W5/F32Y0FVJ8F5Q3W5.png?auto=webp&fit=bounds&frame=1&height=1024&width=1024&auto=webp&frame=1&height=300
The second page has a box for appearance (either written or a picture if you like to do that sort of thing), as well as a box for what most people on here seem to be defining as a "backstory".

If the DM is only asking me to "fill out my character sheet" that's not, IMO, creating a backstory. That's just filling out my character sheet. No different than me writing down my stats or my character's name.

I think what you all are missing from my posts at this point is that the DM is not the intended target of the backstory. The player is. And you all keep cropping my posts and clipping out where I have repeatedly said to provide the DM with a 'short version' if you decide to write a long one.

Which is exactly what the boxes on the character sheet are for. You give the DM a copy of that and you keep the longer backstory for yourself as guidance on how your character behaves. If the DM wants to read your longer backstory, by all means give them a copy.

ALSO I would really appreciate if everyone who replies to me would stop doing this whole "backstory or a book" strawman. I'm not suggesting people write hundred-page novellas and I never have. There's a massive range between "a backstory of a few pages" and a novel. I'm suggesting people write something between 1 and 4 pages (which is the actual rule I use at my table). Rather than "a paragraph" or "bullet points" which are already included on the character sheet and I expect people to fill that out. And I'm fine with people going further (at my table) provided their writing is good enough to keep me interested.


One of my players has an idea, and wants to DM a one-shot.

Since D&D is easy, and it doesn't matter what you play, I random rolled my character using a table I use to make up NPCs:
Species: Elf; Class; Thug/Veteran. Race; Wood Elf. Wood Elf Thug/Veteran Fighter.
+2 Dex, +1 Wis...Uhh...I pick Samurai.
My group had a good laugh about how I'll be an Elf Samurai, the most weab thing you can ever be. That I random rolled. [Deity] is laughing.

As a DM, I'm expected to play anything. So I picked Outlander, then random rolled everything.
Origin: Exile/Outcast.
Personality: Money and manners is dumb.
Ideals: Change and Glory (Chaotic Neutral).
Bonds: Bear children to sustain my tribe (not sure how that fits with being in exile, but okay)
Flaws: No room for caution in a life meant to be lived.

30 minutes later I had this:

As the second-born son to his family, Verek was raised as a bodyguard to his older brother, who would eventually inherit [Minor/Major Noble Title]. As part of his duties to his older brother, Verek was expected to travel and observe other societies and cultures for potential threats and dangers to his primary. As part of an Elven culture, Verek saw quickly that his own culture was stagnating and dying, and quickly grew enamoured of other species and cultures that were more...Alive. As part of his interactions and liaising with other guards and paramilitary organisations during envoys, Verek quickly fell in love during a diplomatic envoy to [Human Society] with [human woman]. Over the years, Verek built a relationship with the woman, until eventually he asked his brother for permission to marry her.

His elder brother said ‘No.’ Dalliances with humans are fine for a while. But you’re part of the [Minor/Major Noble] family. Yes. It is your duty to provide children - eventually. But those children should be Elves, definitely not less-than. After a significant argument, the ultimatum was given; Your love, or your Family. Heartbroken, Verek said that was exactly what he felt was wrong with [Elf Place], and chose love over his brother, and his family. Breaking his brother’s heart, and abandoning his duty to protect his older brother from danger. During his journey to [Human Town/Village] with his fiance, make plans and the Gods laugh. His cart was attacked by Bandits. Verek was used to protecting his brother, who had Elven weapons’ training, and Keen Eyes, with a similar upbringing to himself. His bond with his brother had lasted over a century. Protecting a human woman, however, who had never specifically trained with him, and lacked his keen elven eyes for ambush...Was killed. Verek, in a rage, slew the rest of the bandits and took up their axes and proceeded to butcher the humans.

In grief, Verek tried to return home. But the damage was done. His brother’s heart was already broken, and it would be a long time before he could even contemplate forgiving the betrayal. But, Elves’ lives are long, and family is forever, even if they break up from time to time. His family broken, his love destroyed. Life moves on. Life has to move on. Maybe one day his brother will learn to forgive. It might take decades, it might take a century. Time heals all wounds, and if Elves have anything, it's time. Elves are not Dwarves - they don’t hold grudges forever. That’s not the way life should work. Until that time, however, Verek searches for a new Family, a new love, until one day his brother will welcome him back home.

The prospective DM said that was way too long for something he only expected to be one-shot and arguably nothing I wrote will ever come up.
But, at least I'll know how to play my character.

Just want to say: great backstory.

[Tanarii]

As a DM, I'm expected to play anything. So I picked Outlander, then random rolled everything.
Origin: Exile/Outcast.
Personality: Money and manners is dumb.
Ideals: Change and Glory (Chaotic Neutral).
Bonds: Bear children to sustain my tribe (not sure how that fits with being in exile, but okay)
Flaws: No room for caution in a life meant to be lived.Bullet points of motivations in single sentences. Easy to remember or reference quickly when it comes to decision making during play. In short, extremely helpful.



30 minutes later I had this:

As the second-born son to his family, Verek was raised as a bodyguard to his older brother, who would eventually inherit [Minor/Major Noble Title]. As part of his duties to his older brother, Verek was expected to travel and observe other societies and cultures for potential threats and dangers to his primary. As part of an Elven culture, Verek saw quickly that his own culture was stagnating and dying, and quickly grew enamoured of other species and cultures that were more...Alive. As part of his interactions and liaising with other guards and paramilitary organisations during envoys, Verek quickly fell in love during a diplomatic envoy to [Human Society] with [human woman]. Over the years, Verek built a relationship with the woman, until eventually he asked his brother for permission to marry her.

His elder brother said ‘No.’ Dalliances with humans are fine for a while. But you’re part of the [Minor/Major Noble] family. Yes. It is your duty to provide children - eventually. But those children should be Elves, definitely not less-than. After a significant argument, the ultimatum was given; Your love, or your Family. Heartbroken, Verek said that was exactly what he felt was wrong with [Elf Place], and chose love over his brother, and his family. Breaking his brother’s heart, and abandoning his duty to protect his older brother from danger. During his journey to [Human Town/Village] with his fiance, make plans and the Gods laugh. His cart was attacked by Bandits. Verek was used to protecting his brother, who had Elven weapons’ training, and Keen Eyes, with a similar upbringing to himself. His bond with his brother had lasted over a century. Protecting a human woman, however, who had never specifically trained with him, and lacked his keen elven eyes for ambush...Was killed. Verek, in a rage, slew the rest of the bandits and took up their axes and proceeded to butcher the humans.

In grief, Verek tried to return home. But the damage was done. His brother’s heart was already broken, and it would be a long time before he could even contemplate forgiving the betrayal. But, Elves’ lives are long, and family is forever, even if they break up from time to time. His family broken, his love destroyed. Life moves on. Life has to move on. Maybe one day his brother will learn to forgive. It might take decades, it might take a century. Time heals all wounds, and if Elves have anything, it's time. Elves are not Dwarves - they don’t hold grudges forever. That’s not the way life should work. Until that time, however, Verek searches for a new Family, a new love, until one day his brother will welcome him back home.

The prospective DM said that was way too long for something he only expected to be one-shot and arguably nothing I wrote will ever come up.
But, at least I'll know how to play my character.Your prospective DM was correct for any game IMO, not just one shots. It fleshes out some details which could be fleshed out in terms of motivations. That's great! But that's written in "story" format with the necessary motivations needed to make decisions for the PC buried in unnecessary prose. That's the real problem with most backstories.

Boiling down backstory prose into clear and concise motivations isn't just for DMs. It's beneficial to players as well.

[TyGuy]

Are you asking about norms or about what a nice backstory would be? Length is not a good metric for the utility of a piece of writing*. Rather the right length for a bit of writing depends on what you are trying to say and how you are trying to say it.

If you are trying to get a normal range for how long a nice backstory is, then you are going to be collapsing several relevant variables because the right length is dependent on the subject matter and the writing style.

How long is a nice backstory? Mu.
How long are backstories typically? I don't know. Longer than mine.
How long are nice backstories typically? Probably Mu.

*Unless you are using it as a paper weight or to cut onions.

People ask all the time "what's a good party size?" And they often get thoughtful responses about typical ranges, the different aspects of small (<4) and large (>5), what is fringe or not recommended for new DMs, etc.
I put the question of "A good party has how many PCs?" in the same vein as "A good backstory is how long?"

The first question could also have a ton of hairsplitting over player competency, party composition, etc. But that nuance doesn't change the big picture that a 12 PC party is ridiculous in most situations and the normal range is 4-6.

Honestly, I'm feeling like you just want to argue a point that's irrelevant to my question. I'm pretty sure that the average table wouldn't consider a good backstory a 1 word adjective or a 300 page novel. So somewhere in between is what's commonly thought of as the sweet spot range. I would rather talk to people about their opinions on that theoretic range.

[KorvinStarmast]

But I try to make a "cliffnotes" for my DM. It doesn't need to cover the specific details of the story I wrote. It just needs to cover the behaviors and ideas that my story helped me solidify. That's a very good idea.

"Gosh that's a cringe backstory"
"I took almost all of it from your setting notes"
"Gosh I'm a cringe DM" *Chuckle* :smallbiggrin:

There have been 10 or 15 really good threads about back stories that I've participated in over the years, I think I need to find them all and put them into an index. The key to a good back story is:

Take the background you pick seriously: it tells a lot about who you were before you began adventuring.
Traits, Ideals, Bonds, Flaws.
Motivations: why did you stop doing that thing in your background and begin adventuring?

Here's a sample of a more concise one DM asked for. Knowledge cleric, half elf, Criminal/Spy background. Curse of Strahd campaign. The DM had the kindness to provide a brief 'this is the world you are from' outline that gave a few places and names to make it possible to place the character. Note this:
The DM used my connection to the merchants guild as the pivot point for how the party meets and begins the initial stages of the adventure before we encountered the mists and ended up in Barovia.
Mother died during childbirth: mine. Her delicate elven constitution couldn't handle the size of my head. Aunty Greta (father's sister) raised me and her own two children also.
Father worked for uncle Telz in Holentor's merchant guild - head of transport. I learned how to stay out of sight, and to listen.
Father's heart gave out. My cousin Elbert drowned in a fishing accident; I was blamed - for surviving I guess. I was turned out but father had made some friends.
My mentor, Fineahz, took me in and made me a disciple of Kanen. {Deity with Knowledge in portfolio/domain}
I learned how to listen and report, how to read and to write, how to find things out, how to get into places people didn't want others in, and how to make friends with people who knew things and who knew useful people.
I recovered an account book; that kept the merchant guild leader out of prison. He'd been keeping two sets of books.
That success, Fineahz advised me, meant that I needed to 'disappear' from common view. Uncle Telz needs a family member to keep an eye on the next caravan north, so I volunteered.
Less than a page for sure. He wanted two or three paragraphs, which it kind of is.
It's a bit longer than some since I had discussed with the DM how I fit into the world; some of this stuff came up as the PCs one by one ran into each other and ended up escorting the caravan (but only the Barbarian was going to be paid as a guard).

[Cheesegear]

Bullet points of motivations in single sentences. Easy to remember or reference quickly when it comes to decision making during play. In short, extremely helpful.

Right. It's what I would put on my character sheet. It's literally what's in the PHB for my Background. As someone who actually likes roleplaying, I'd like to turn what I randomly rolled into something coherent. How does a Samurai, a Subclass with an ability literally called Elegant Courtier, think that manners is dumb? I have to reconcile that, and I don't think bullet points can realistically do that. How can I be in Exile, but still want to produce children? That doesn't make a lot of sense. I have to reconcile that.

Now, partially this a problem rising from the fact that I randomly rolled every except my Background and Subclass. But, as a DM, part of my role is being creative, and part of my role is being a good roleplayer. So I should be able to make it work, and I feel like I have.


But that's written in "story" format with the necessary motivations needed to make decisions for the PC buried in unnecessary prose. That's the real problem with most backstories.

As I said in a previous post, what I expect is the following:

How were you raised. What is your Background?
What is your inciting incident? What is your Class?
What is your motivation to adventure? What is your Bond?

I don't expect any more than one, maybe two paragraphs for each, if starting at Level 1. My backstory clocks in at about 400 words, and definitely less than a page, and what I wrote is nearly the maximum of what I would ask my players for. I'm not going to ask my players for something I wouldn't do myself, and I did do it myself. How deep do you go into your character's backstory? Well I go nearly exactly as deep as what I posted. My players can absolutely hand me a sheet with a lot less, if they choose to. But I definitely don't ask for more than one page. But it works better if I - the DM - have more to go on.

But, given that this is a one-shot. The session will be more about some NPC or some encounter or some mechanic that the player really wants to do, and as such my character's backstory isn't exactly relevant, because he already knows what he wants to do. However, I now have a reasonably fleshed-out Wood Elf Samurai I can break out if I ever get to play as a player again (unlikely in the short term). How deep does my prospective DM go into my backstory? He literally doesn't give a **** about it.

[OldTrees1]

People ask all the time "what's a good party size?" And they often get thoughtful responses about typical ranges, the different aspects of small (<4) and large (>5), what is fringe or not recommended for new DMs, etc.
I put the question of "A good party has how many PCs?" in the same vein as "A good backstory is how long?"

The first question could also have a ton of hairsplitting over player competency, party composition, etc. But that nuance doesn't change the big picture that a 12 PC party is ridiculous in most situations and the normal range is 4-6.

Honestly, I'm feeling like you just want to argue a point that's irrelevant to my question. I'm pretty sure that the average table wouldn't consider a good backstory a 1 word adjective or a 300 page novel. So somewhere in between is what's commonly thought of as the sweet spot range. I would rather talk to people about their opinions on that theoretic range.

I did not want to argue a point. I wanted to give an accurate and honest answer to your question. I said Mu followed by the thoughtful response about why the ideal length of the prose could dramatically vary. You did not like that answer. My advice would be to take the answer and continue gathering more answers from more people.

You will find lots of groups have backstories as something written by the player for the player. As such you will find a lot of subjectivity. If you want to find a norm about people's preference for their own backstory, then that would be simple statistics and be around 0 words (unless you remove all the 0 word outliers). If you want to find a norm about people's preferences for other player's backstories, then you will find a lot of Mu.

[Foolwise]

Googling has not been helpful, what exactly do you mean by Mu?

[KorvinStarmast]

Googling has not been helpful, what exactly do you mean by Mu?

It indicates something like a non sqeuitur roughly: in other words, the question as phrased hasn't got the kind of answer that the asker is looking for due to how the question is put together.


Mu means "no thing." Like "Quality" it points outside the process of dualistic discrimination. Mu simply says, "No class; not one, not zero, not yes, not no."
It states that the context of the question is such that a yes or no answer is in error and should not be given.

[TyGuy]

You did not like that answer. My advice would be to take the answer and continue gathering more answers from more people.

I would consider the things you typed as responses, and the term answer to be a bit too generous. But I will continue to cross my fingers and hope for more commentary like this:



As I said in a previous post, what I expect is the following:

How were you raised. What is your Background?
What is your inciting incident? What is your Class?
What is your motivation to adventure? What is your Bond?

I don't expect any more than one, maybe two paragraphs for each, if starting at Level 1. My backstory clocks in at about 400 words, and definitely less than a page, and what I wrote is nearly the maximum of what I would ask my players for. I'm not going to ask my players for something I wouldn't do myself, and I did do it myself. How deep do you go into your character's backstory? Well I go nearly exactly as deep as what I posted. My players can absolutely hand me a sheet with a lot less, if they choose to. But I definitely don't ask for more than one page. But it works better if I - the DM - have more to go on.

[Reach Weapon]

And you all keep cropping my posts and clipping out where I have repeatedly said to provide the DM with a 'short version' if you decide to write a long one.
I believe this may be largely an issue of conflicting etiquette: My school believes that everyone can generally retain the points and context, so small prompts coupled with the links right there in the quote, are respectful of space and attention. Threads can always be read over.


ALSO I would really appreciate if everyone who replies to me would stop doing this whole "backstory or a book" strawman.
I don't believe it can be properly termed a strawman when people are neither ascribing it as your position, nor actually trying to defeat it. 100 pages and novels were discussed before you chimed in and as you, yourself stated, a DM should receive a summary but people should generally feel free to write as much as they'd like.


The latter is likely to be random and disruptive. They have no goals other than what's in front of them, their approaches are unpredictable and obnoxious. They are often antagonistic to the party's goals by simply existing. Their uncertainty principle is so high they're likely to cause division between players and party members alike. When asked why they did something cruel, rude, stupid or obnoxious their likely response is (translated from troll) "Cause I like to stir the pot."

Speaking more directly to your experience, while I'm not convinced backstory crafting even correlates strongly with characters as played, I can see how DMs who value that would tend to head tables where chaotic new-troll characters do not flourish. I can also see how players who conform to the expectations and norms of the table, including doing their writing assignments, would be more likely to do the same for other standards.
Which brings us to the part I am interested in exploring.

[False God]

I believe this may be largely an issue of conflicting etiquette: My school believes that everyone can generally retain the points and context, so small prompts coupled with the links right there in the quote, are respectful of space and attention. Threads can always be read over.

I don't believe it can be properly termed a strawman when people are neither ascribing it as your position, nor actually trying to defeat it. 100 pages and novels were discussed before you chimed in and as you, yourself stated, a DM should receive a summary but people should generally feel free to write as much as they'd like.
Hmm, okay, but I feel like I was clear and I keep getting folks making the same remark. So it feels like when one section is quoted, and then I'm asked about something I already answered in the following section that isn't quoted, people just aren't reading.

If anyone feels I have been unclear about my position, it can be surmised as follows:

Players should feel free to write a long backstory for their own reference.
Players should provide a "short version" equivalent to what the 5E character sheet has space for already, to the DM.
DM's should be clear with how much they expect a player to produce, and how much they're willing to read.
DM's should also be clear with what they're looking for in a backstory, or even cliffnotes.

IE: I want more contextualized answers. I don't particularly care that your character is loyal, I want to know who, what, where and why they're loyal. I expect these answers require more description. I want that description. Therefore I will read more backstory.


Which brings us to the part I am interested in exploring.
Hmmm, I thought that part of your earlier response was fairly accurate. I didn't really feel there was anything I needed to add. People who conform to the rules and norms of a table are more likely to be accepted and enjoy the table better. Thought that was pretty accurate.