How to get planar binding on a cleric?

[redking]

Any methods for getting a cleric to have planar binding on his/her class list? Malconvoker 2 is the only method that comes to mind.

[ciopo]

diabolic domain from Fiendish codex II

what do you want it for?

[Tzardok]

Demon domain from Fiendish Codex 1 too.

I'm also curious; what do you need Planar Binding for when you've got the less risky Planar Ally?

[redking]

what do you want it for?

Calls planar ally. Planar ally says "that will be 500Gp per HD for short term task, or 100Gp per HD for a task that takes longer than that".

Cleric: "Let me think about it and lets talk about it later". Sends the planar ally home. Casts planar binding.

Planar bound planar ally: "What's this about then?".

Cleric: "I think we need to begin negotiations in good faith. How about 5Gp per HD as my final offer or else?".

Planar bound planar ally: "You so-and-so. I will remember this".

[Tzardok]

You can't expect that trick to work more than once. After the first time your god will be peeved with you and won't send any planar allies anymore.

[RandomPeasant]

Why would you take the money option on planar ally? It summons a creature that is ideologically aligned with you, and one of the options is that you do something that advances that creatures goals (which, it being ideologically aligned with you, are also your goals). The spell is way freer than planar binding already.

[redking]

Why would you take the money option on planar ally? It summons a creature that is ideologically aligned with you, and one of the options is that you do something that advances that creatures goals (which, it being ideologically aligned with you, are also your goals). The spell is way freer than planar binding already.

The creature called by planar ally is already in sync with you ethically/morally. It still requires payment, however. The spell description is clear on that. Even if you pay the planar ally in kind with some task, its going to be a different task than the one you are asking it to do for you.

[Efrate]

Whereas planar binding let's you get anything for nothing with no downsides if you are smart about it. Just debuff them until they cave for nothing. Devils are forbidden from getting vengeance because their being bound shows their weakness. Their superiors or anyone else will do nothing, and you can just kill it afterwards at no penalty so it's totally risk free. You could even angle it to planar ally something and have it kill the devil for all kinds of good vibe all around.

[RandomPeasant]

The creature called by planar ally is already in sync with you ethically/morally. It still requires payment, however. The spell description is clear on that. Even if you pay the planar ally in kind with some task, its going to be a different task than the one you are asking it to do for you.

Sure, you can't pay it in "you do the thing I told you to do". But you're paying a creature that agrees with you about what things need to be done by doing a thing it thinks needs to be done. Basically, you go on an adventure, but since you're an adventurer and going on adventures is kind of your whole thing, that's not really a big deal.

[Psyren]

Devils are forbidden from getting vengeance because their being bound shows their weakness. Their superiors or anyone else will do nothing, and you can just kill it afterwards at no penalty so it's totally risk free.

A mortal who feels that way about fiends is exactly the kind that I'd have them decide to take down a peg or two, were I GMing.

[RandomPeasant]

A mortal who feels that way about fiends is exactly the kind that I'd have them decide to take down a peg or two, were I GMing.

I am persistently shocked at the number of people who think "let's have an adventure that is entirely about how the Wizard uses planar binding" is a good solution to "the Wizard's use of planar binding takes up a disproportionate amount of time and attention at the table".

[Kuulvheysoon]

I am persistently shocked at the number of people who think "let's have an adventure that is entirely about how the Wizard uses planar binding" is a good solution to "the Wizard's use of planar binding takes up a disproportionate amount of time and attention at the table".

I mean... I'm actually with Psyren here. When I DM, the players effect the world around them, and the world responds. If they burn down a city, the reactions of people around them will change.

You'll notice that Psyren in no way said that his reaction was influenced by the amount of time and attention that a player required at the table.

If you treat devils as disposable, well... they certainly don't consider themselves disposable. Binding them to your service, yah, it's inconvenient for the devil and they'd swear revenge, blah blah blah but in reality, you're just a mortal. A hundred years from now, you won't matter (they don't know that you're a PC. for all they know, you've reached the peak of your abilities).

I also fundamentally disagree with Efrate's conclusion - in the Infernal Bureaucracy, why wouldn't your superiors log your time? It's Hell, remember? So they would know that you were summoned, and possibly by whom (not likely, no, but if you keep summoning and binding devils only to track them back down to the 9 Hells to kill them permanently, you're putting yourself on a List).

[icefractal]

A response by those you've bound previously is fair enough, and sure, they can bring allies (but keep in mind, mortals are out there doing many things that Hell is opposed to on a daily basis), but to consider a possible binder's perspective -

"Oh no, the group of evil tyrants who I oppose all the plans of, and intend to hinder as much as I can, is going to be upset at me! I mean, they're probably upset already from when I broke that portal they'd been working on, but I shouldn't be mean to them ... oh wait, yes I should, they suck."

Binding angels can be more questionable. IMO, there are two uses of Planar Binding:
A) Just call someone and make a deal, with no coercion. To be more polite, you should leave off the magic circle (or stand inside it yourself, so they don't just think you're a noob and shift away immediately).
B) Make the Charisma check and force them to obey. At this point, it's mind control, so choose your targets carefully and don't expect them to like you afterwards.

Really the two should be separate spells, then version A could allow you to "bargain with great powers beyond your ken", which the spell really doesn't currently; it's more like "bargain with powers that are ... about equal to you, or often weaker".

[Zanos]

A mortal who feels that way about fiends is exactly the kind that I'd have them decide to take down a peg or two, were I GMing.
Sure, the party has a level appropriate encounter with angry devils. Assuming they can even find the wizard. Most devils have no access to divinations, so you'd have to get the attention of a unique devil or a lord.

Hell has bigger problems than 9th level wizards killing low level grunts. There's a war on, remember.



I also fundamentally disagree with Efrate's conclusion - in the Infernal Bureaucracy, why wouldn't your superiors log your time? It's Hell, remember? So they would know that you were summoned, and possibly by whom (not likely, no, but if you keep summoning and binding devils only to track them back down to the 9 Hells to kill them permanently, you're putting yourself on a List).
There are ways to permanently put down devils that do not require you personally venture to the nine hells, many of which are accessible to 9th level wizards.

Even if you do not leverage those methods, according to FCII it takes devils slain outside of the nine hells 99 years to reform, and are often demoted for their failure, especially if they are lower in the hierarchy.

[Psyren]

Sure, the party has a level appropriate encounter with angry devils. Assuming they can even find the wizard. Most devils have no access to divinations, so you'd have to get the attention of a unique devil or a lord.

Hell has bigger problems than 9th level wizards killing low level grunts. There's a war on, remember.

"Binding devils should be risk free" is not a mindset they'd be keen to perpetuate if acted upon routinely. I'm not saying they'd take notice after one or a few instances of that.


I am persistently shocked at the number of people who think "let's have an adventure that is entirely about how the Wizard uses planar binding" is a good solution to "the Wizard's use of planar binding takes up a disproportionate amount of time and attention at the table".

Bold of you to assume I'd need a whole adventure for that.

[GeoffWatson]

Why make enemies just to save a few gp?

The ally would normally help as best it can, as you both serve the same deity.
Binding them, would piss them off, and they'll be looking for Literal Genie tricks to undermine you.

[Efrate]

Does the 99 year reform apply to called fiends? I was under the impression that a called outsider is physically there and if it dies it is full dead. Wish or miracle could bring it back but its not reforming naturally.

[Tzardok]

Does the 99 year reform apply to called fiends? I was under the impression that a called outsider is physically there and if it dies it is full dead. Wish or miracle could bring it back but its not reforming naturally.

Summoned creatures reform in 24 hours if killed. Called beings follow the normal rules for their kind, and the fluff says that certain beings (batezu, tana'ri, archons, other embodiments of alignment) can and usually do reform (usually in a weaker species) if killed off their homeplane. Batezu as lawful beings simply have a "exactly 99 years" rule, instead of the "whenever" of tana'ri.

[Maat Mons]

To be fully complete, I'll note that the Rune domain also has one of the Planar Binding spells, but only one. I guess it may also be worth noting that the Diabolic domain, already mentioned, only has two of the Planar Binding spells, and it's only the Demonic domain, also already mentioned, that has all three.

You know, various demon lords offer the Demonic domain to their Clerics, and various arch devils offer the Diabolic domain to their Clerics. "Your boss is the one who granted me the spell I used to bind you," might be a compelling argument to dissuade bound fiends from seeking retribution.

[RandomPeasant]

It's setting-specific, but IIRC Hathran adds the planar binding line to your list.


I mean... I'm actually with Psyren here. When I DM, the players effect the world around them, and the world responds. If they burn down a city, the reactions of people around them will change.

I don't disagree with doing it, I disagree with the notion that it's somehow a balancing element for the spell. The world should respond to the players. But when the world responds to a player's action, that puts them in the spotlight more, which makes it the worst possible tool for dealing with an overpowered ability.


"Oh no, the group of evil tyrants who I oppose all the plans of, and intend to hinder as much as I can, is going to be upset at me! I mean, they're probably upset already from when I broke that portal they'd been working on, but I shouldn't be mean to them ... oh wait, yes I should, they suck."

Sure, the party has a level appropriate encounter with angry devils.

Exactly. It's hard for people to wrap their head around, but "people are out to get you" is not a downside for PCs. If there is a group that is periodically sending devils (or ninja assassins, or bounty hunters) after you, that's not a drawback. It just means that some of the level-appropriate encounters you have are specifically about your character, which is in fact an advantage.

The exception to this is if the DM uses it to TPK you, in which case that's bad DMing because he's solving an out of game problem (you are using planar binding at a power level that's inappropriate for the table) in-game.


Really the two should be separate spells

planar binding should be a whole bunch of different spells. The constraints that are appropriate for demonic subcontractors, demonic servants, demonic soldiers, demonic advisors, and demonic bodyguards are entirely separate and attempting to handle them with a one-size-fits-all solution is not something that can be made to work.


Bold of you to assume I'd need a whole adventure for that.

It doesn't matter if it's an adventure or just an encounter. The incentives are still all wrong. You're responding to a player doing something that allows them to monopolize the spotlight by putting them in the spotlight more. That's the opposite of a solution.

[Zanos]

"Binding devils should be risk free" is not a mindset they'd be keen to perpetuate if acted upon routinely. I'm not saying they'd take notice after one or a few instances of that.
When would they notice? Thousands and thousands of devils are KIA every day in the Blood War. Bureaucracy from (literally) hell is not about efficiency, it's about CYA. The activities of your average 9th level party smashing up a material-plane devil cult are more inconvenient to hells agenda than any number of devils a single caster could disappear from the lower planes with planar binding. There are edge cases, if Pit Fiends start going missing you've got a problem, because they work for big A or unique dukes.

If you want to punish players for (ab)using planar binding, you...shouldn't. Just ban or houserule the spell.

[Psyren]

If you want to punish players for (ab)using planar binding, you...shouldn't. Just ban or houserule the spell.

The very first line of the spell specifically says it is a "dangerous act" so making it be "risk free" would be the houserule here.

[RandomPeasant]

The very first line of the spell specifically says it is a "dangerous act" so making it be "risk free" would be the houserule here.

The line says "Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap". It's a "dangerous act" because you're summoning something that isn't inherently controlled, not because the spell is supposed to result in you periodically getting attacked by outsiders. The spell is not "risk free" just because someone takes appropriate precautions to make it safe, and insisting that it must move up to whatever level of danger you think is appropriate is the houserule here.

[Psyren]

The line says "Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap". It's a "dangerous act" because you're summoning something that isn't inherently controlled, not because the spell is supposed to result in you periodically getting attacked by outsiders. The spell is not "risk free" just because someone takes appropriate precautions to make it safe, and insisting that it must move up to whatever level of danger you think is appropriate is the houserule here.

0% risk 100% of the time goes beyond "appropriate precautions."

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't disagree with doing it, I disagree with the notion that it's somehow a balancing element for the spell. The world should respond to the players. But when the world responds to a player's action, that puts them in the spotlight more, which makes it the worst possible tool for dealing with an overpowered ability.
Oh goodness no, I'm not trying to suggest that it's a ad hoc balance patch for an OP spell. I was more suggesting "hey, if you start using it to farm XP and kill the devil every time after you use it, expect there to be consequences when the Powers That Be figure out that something hinky is going on."

If you're using it for its intended purpose, you shouldn't face any additional consequences (assuming that you took the intended precautions).