Rangers are Slow

[Catullus64]

I've described Rangers (and heard them described) as a kind of median between Druid, Fighter and Rogue. Their class text evokes suddenness, free movement, skirmishing. And since they don't have heavy armor and lean towards Dexterity as a primary stat, I've mentally categorized them alongside the swift-moving Dex fighters, the Rogue and the Monk. I think of Rangers as a fast class because of how they're themed.

And they're really not. It's funny that I keep falling into this mental schematic, when it's flatly contradicted by the books right in front of me. It's not like I forgot what features Rangers do and don't have. Let's see how the core class grants you mobility.


At 8th Level, you can ignore certain types of difficult terrain.
That's it.


Subclasses are better at providing mobility, I suppose. The subclass capstones for Horizon Walker and Fey Wanderer go a long way... at 15th level. Hunter, Gloom Stalker, and Swarmkeeper provide some earlier help in this regard, but not much.

Ranger spell list has some options decent options, like Longstrider and Zephyr Strike, and eventually Freedom of Movement... but Rangers are very limited both in spell slots and spells known. In terms of mobility from spells, they come out behind full casters who can afford to spare their slots and spells known more.

Oh, and if the DM is generous enough to allow Tasha's variant features, you can get +5ft, swimming, and climbing from Level 1. Which is nice, but it requires you to jettison Natural Explorer. Your table may cause variance on how useful Natural Explorer really is (my tables lean towards very good), but having to give it up for a basic maneuverability upgrade still seems like it stings.

Essentially, without any deliberate investment on your part, Rangers are slower than Barbarians. With investment, you can become faster... but still probably slower than the Monk or Rogue who didn't have to invest anything to get fast. So ends my bewildered tirade. Cue the headlines: "Man surprised that the baseline Ranger has problems."

[Keltest]

I generally describe rangers as ambush predators more than pursuit predators. They arent necessarily the fastest, but theyre really, really hard to make slower, and the more time they have to prepare, the better they are at slowing down and controlling their enemies movements.

[Kane0]

Their class text evokes suddenness, free movement, skirmishing.


At 8th Level, you can ignore certain types of difficult terrain.
That's it.




Absolutely agreed. Tashas gives you something but i could also shamelessly plug both parts of my sig.

[Reach Weapon]

Oh, and if the DM is generous enough to allow Tasha's variant features, you can get +5ft, swimming, and climbing from Level 1.
I believe Roving actually kicks in at level 6.

More to your point, I think there are enough elements to the Ranger Archetype, that in service of the 5E balance philosophy (as I understand it), the chassis should have had (an) additional configuration point(s) to select which portions of it the character most exemplifies, instead of implementing a bunch of it incompletely and with little internal synergy.

[Kane0]

I think there are enough elements to the Ranger Archetype, that in service of the 5E balance philosophy (as I understand it), the chassis should have had (an) additional configuration point(s) to select which portions of it the character most exemplifies, instead of implementing a bunch of it incompletely and with little internal synergy.

Oh man, urge to plug rising!

[Thunderous Mojo]

The Longstrider spell is the Ranger Class' speed boost.
My own personal rule is the optional alternative class abilities from TCoE, are added to the PHB features, instead of replacing them.

Roving from TCoE is an amazing ability...granting a Ranger a Swim and Climbing speed means that either type of movement no longer costs double the amount of distance moved.

An 8th level Ranger can climb the most treacherous mountain with no reduction in speed...Land's Stride removes the movement penalty for Difficult Terrain and the Climbing Speed the Ranger has from the Roving ability removes the movement penalty from Climbing without a Climb speed.

The Natural Explorer ability also passes along some movement cost savings to the group.

A Monk or Rogue with the Mobile feat, but without a Ranger, could use their Dash Action could ignore the Difficult Terrain in this example of a K2 like mountain, but the Rogue and Monk still have to pay double movement to climb, as they lack the climb speed that a Ranger with the Roving ability has.

Longstrider also adds 10' to all movement types. Rangers seem fine to me, in terms of movement.

The Horizon Walker's Ethereal Step is a surprisingly good ability.

[RogueJK]

but the Rogue and Monk still have to pay double movement to climb, as they lack the climb speed that a Ranger with the Roving ability has.

Unless the Monk is needing to climb a vertical distance that's less than its movement speed (or Dash speed), in which case starting at Level 9 they can simply run up it.

In fact, like a Rogue, a Monk can "double Dash", using their Action to Dash, and their Bonus Action to Step of the Wind Dash, for 3x movement speed up a vertical surface. Combined with their +10' movement speed, at 9th level that's 130' of vertical "climbing" in a turn. (With the last 5' reserved for moving from the vertical to horizontal plane to avoid falling. But your DM may also allow something like 135' run partway up a 135'+ wall and then an Athletics check to grab on to the wall at the end of your movement to avoid falling.)

[loki_ragnarock]

At 8th Level, you can ignore certain types of difficult terrain.
This has always bugged me a bit in isolation of the larger conversation simply because it comes online as flying becomes more common.

It really should be a much lower level ability. Which is true of pretty much all the ranger's high level abilities.

[LtPowers]

Part of the problem is the distinction between tactical in-combat movement and overland movement. Rangers should probably be masters of the latter, but there's no reason to expect them to be better than Rogues or Monks or Barbarians at the former.

Unfortunately, the rules don't put quite enough space between those two types of movement.


Powers &8^]

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rangers may not be particularly fast in terms of class features, but between high Dex scores and mobility-enhancing spells I'd hardly call them slow--they still come in above heavy-armor users and most casters. Call it one more manifestation of being a hybrid class, if you want.


Absolutely agreed. Tashas gives you something but i could also shamelessly plug both parts of my sig.
Can confirm, Kane0 does good work.

[Sorinth]

Part of the problem is the distinction between tactical in-combat movement and overland movement. Rangers should probably be masters of the latter, but there's no reason to expect them to be better than Rogues or Monks or Barbarians at the former.

Unfortunately, the rules don't put quite enough space between those two types of movement.


Powers &8^]

From a theme POV why wouldn't Rangers be just as fast as Barbarians? There's nothing about Barbarian that screams fast movement. To me they get that fast movement for balance purposes more then anything.

[loki_ragnarock]

From a theme POV why wouldn't Rangers be just as fast as Barbarians? There's nothing about Barbarian that screams fast movement. To me they get that fast movement for balance purposes more then anything.

One of the barbarian themes appears to be "nigh superhuman athleticism," so being physically faster than most folks seems pretty on brand.

EDIT:
Meanwhile, the theme for rangers appears to be...

[Sorinth]

One of the barbarian themes appears to be "nigh superhuman athleticism," so being physically faster than most folks seems pretty on brand.

EDIT:
Meanwhile, the theme for rangers appears to be...

I always looked at it like superhuman strength, and possibly endurance not general athleticism. So they would compete in the worlds strongest man competition or be champion weight lifters. I expect Conan the Barbarian to use superhuman strength and lift/shove something of such massive weight that no real human could, I don't expect him to beat Usain Bolt in a 100m race.


EDIT: For Rangers in combat the theme is probably Skirmishing and that usually comes from increased movement or free/BA disengage.

[verbatim]

I'd like to see a future ranger subclass try to make melee skirmishing a viable archetype (because it absolutely is not right now), and I would imagine that increasing base movement would be at least one of those features.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd like to see a future ranger subclass try to make melee skirmishing a viable archetype (because it absolutely is not right now), and I would imagine that increasing base movement would be at least one of those features.

I mean, between the Mobile feat and Swashbuckler Rogue, what else are you looking for in regards to making melee skirmishing a viable archtype?

[Thunderous Mojo]

Unless the Monk is needing to climb a vertical distance that's less than its movement speed (or Dash speed), in which case starting at Level 9 they can simply run up it.

In fact, like a Rogue, a Monk can "double Dash", using their Action to Dash, and their Bonus Action to Step of the Wind Dash, for 3x movement speed up a vertical surface. Combined with their +10' movement speed, at 9th level that's 130' of vertical "climbing" in a turn. (With the last 5' reserved for moving from the vertical to horizontal plane to avoid falling. But your DM may also allow something like 135' run partway up a 135'+ wall and then an Athletics check to grab on to the wall at the end of your movement to avoid falling.)

If your point is to state that Rogues and Monks are the best classes at straight up movement...was that ever in question? (And you might be in the wrong thread🃏)

For myself, it has become clear through play that movement penalties have a huge impact on non-dungeon crawler, non-Flatland, style of game.

I would rate the Ranger as the third best ' straight movement' class.
(Granted this is with TCoE and PHB together)

Land's Stride is great when facing against Druids or anything with Plant Growth.

[strangebloke]

They're not worse than barbarians. Longstrider is a really efficient spell if you're playing in a way where movement speed is relevant (which honestly movement is always relevant if you know how to use it)

TBH my problems with mobility come down to the fact that all things being equal, melee characters are inherently at a disadvantage because of the need to, well, be in melee. The same movement speed that will allow a melee fighter to consistently "get in" on the first turn is also a speed that allows a ranged PC to effectively kite most of the monster manual, time allowing. WOTC clearly realized this to some extent, with the two melee specialist classes (barbarians and monks) getting strong mobility bonuses, but the trouble comes with the classes that are intended to be played either way.

You give a fighter a fly speed and the melee fighters get to interact with flying enemies! ...And the ranged fighters get to refuse to interact with grounded enemies that lack good ranged options.

EDIT: Personally I think there needs to be something generic to compensate. Either a "charge" action that allows you to make a melee attack as part of a dash action, or a "steady aim" rule that penalizes you for moving your full movement and making ranged attacks. It certainly doesn't feel like this is an issue from the perspective of the narrative of a fight scene.

[Sorinth]

I'd like to see a future ranger subclass try to make melee skirmishing a viable archetype (because it absolutely is not right now), and I would imagine that increasing base movement would be at least one of those features.

I think a melee skirmish based class would be a good add but I'm not sure I would say it's not viable right now.

A Centaur Ranger with Tasha's and the Mobile feat has a base movement 55ft feat, doesn't provoke opportunity attacks and has access to spells like Longstrider and Zephyr Strike.

And if you don't like Centaur, Leonin, Satyr, Orc can all work as well. And there's always the small race riding their Animal Companion option that can be done with melee.

[loki_ragnarock]

I always looked at it like superhuman strength, and possibly endurance not general athleticism. So they would compete in the worlds strongest man competition or be champion weight lifters. I expect Conan the Barbarian to use superhuman strength and lift/shove something of such massive weight that no real human could, I don't expect him to beat Usain Bolt in a 100m race.


EDIT: For Rangers in combat the theme is probably Skirmishing and that usually comes from increased movement or free/BA disengage.

My opinion is to the contrary, I'd expect Conan to probably match Usain Bolt since Bolt has been coddled by the softness of civilization. One of Conan's defining features was nigh superhuman quickness and reaction times, in addition to raw strength and limitless endurance. (Also, cleverness and social acumen; Conan does everything well, frankly.) Though I've only read the Howard stuff; they might confine him a bit more in the full length novels. Even if he didn't grab gold (because there was one person described as stronger than him, as I recall, so it stands to reason there'd be someone faster), but as he's described I'd expect him to medal at any Olympic event that didn't have an artistic component. So no synchronized swimming medal, but probably most of track and field.

That said, I don't really agree with the Howard premise that "civilization" would inherently make men physically weaker than their "uncivilized" counterparts. But that's the premise you'd run with if you're looking for a Conan T. Barbarian. Most of the class features support the peak human athleticism theme. They are faster (fast movement, danger sense, feral instinct), stronger (advantage on strength checks, extra strength damage, indomitable might, half of primal champion), tougher (half damage, the other half of primal champion) than mere civilized people, their bodies forged to steel in the crucible of savage need.


Rangers as skirmishers, though? I don't know if their class features support that interpretation, though I suppose that's a takeaway. I get more of a... "generic outdoorsman adventurer" vibe off of them. People who go "over there" and come back, who have accumulated a bunch of specialized knowledge and a handful of tricks most people wouldn't. They can fight a bit, having access to fighting styles and medium armor. They learn a smattering of magic tricks as a spells known caster. They've got a fairly wide variety of skills, starting with proficiency in more of them save bards, certain types of clerics, and rogues. They can quote some of the great works of Gnoll Literature and tell which way is north by the mushrooms on this log.
"Person who knows practical/esoteric things" might hew closer to the ranger theme. I think the skirmishing thing is probably more of a byproduct of the capability/requirement for sideways thinking that comes with knowing much while excelling at little. In that way they've got alot of crossover with bards, except they got the short end of the casting schtick and the long end of the fighting schtick... except for specific bard subclasses that bring back parity on the fighting that just make it short schtick, I guess.

But I'm unconvinced that the whole ranger kit is built around the specifics of skirmishing as a unifying theme.

[Dork_Forge]

Deft Explorer gives you a number of benefits, not just the speed boost but I'm struggling to see what the issue here is?

You think that they should be fast, and they have access to tools to allow that. That's certainly not their only interpretation or way to build them, so having access to tools but not being forced to have them seems pretty applicable to me?

Personally i never thought as Ranger as a 'fast' class like I do with Barbarians, Monks, and Rogues. That said, making them faster than your average class is trivially easy if you actually want it.

[Sorinth]

My opinion is to the contrary, I'd expect Conan to probably match Usain Bolt since Bolt has been coddled by the softness of civilization. One of Conan's defining features was nigh superhuman quickness and reaction times, in addition to raw strength and limitless endurance. (Also, cleverness and social acumen; Conan does everything well, frankly.) Though I've only read the Howard stuff; they might confine him a bit more in the full length novels. Even if he didn't grab gold (because there was one person described as stronger than him, as I recall, so it stands to reason there'd be someone faster), but as he's described I'd expect him to medal at any Olympic event that didn't have an artistic component. So no synchronized swimming medal, but probably most of track and field.

That said, I don't really agree with the Howard premise that "civilization" would inherently make men physically weaker than their "uncivilized" counterparts. But that's the premise you'd run with if you're looking for a Conan T. Barbarian. Most of the class features support the peak human athleticism theme. They are faster (fast movement, danger sense, feral instinct), stronger (advantage on strength checks, extra strength damage, indomitable might, half of primal champion), tougher (half damage, the other half of primal champion) than mere civilized people, their bodies forged to steel in the crucible of savage need.

I have no doubt Conan would do well in a race, I'm just not sure he would be expected to win against the world's fastest man beyond the whole it's Conan story and so Conan always wins. Things like sensing danger and thereby being able to react quickly is more about listening to that primal/animal instinct that is subconsciously alerting you to danger, and less about actually being able to run fast.



Rangers as skirmishers, though? I don't know if their class features support that interpretation, though I suppose that's a takeaway. I get more of a... "generic outdoorsman adventurer" vibe off of them. People who go "over there" and come back, who have accumulated a bunch of specialized knowledge and a handful of tricks most people wouldn't. They can fight a bit, having access to fighting styles and medium armor. They learn a smattering of magic tricks as a spells known caster. They've got a fairly wide variety of skills, starting with proficiency in more of them save bards, certain types of clerics, and rogues. They can quote some of the great works of Gnoll Literature and tell which way is north by the mushrooms on this log.
"Person who knows practical/esoteric things" might hew closer to the ranger theme. I think the skirmishing thing is probably more of a byproduct of the capability/requirement for sideways thinking that comes with knowing much while excelling at little. In that way they've got alot of crossover with bards, except they got the short end of the casting schtick and the long end of the fighting schtick... except for specific bard subclasses that bring back parity on the fighting that just make it short schtick, I guess.

But I'm unconvinced that the whole ranger kit is built around the specifics of skirmishing as a unifying theme.

I think this is sort of the point, the Ranger abilities don't really offer very much for skirmishing in melee. But a lot of people think of skirmishing when they think of how a Ranger should fight so there's a disconnect between what the rules allow/encourage and character idea a player has in their head when they want to make a Ranger.

[Sorinth]

Deft Explorer gives you a number of benefits, not just the speed boost but I'm struggling to see what the issue here is?

You think that they should be fast, and they have access to tools to allow that. That's certainly not their only interpretation or way to build them, so having access to tools but not being forced to have them seems pretty applicable to me?

Personally i never thought as Ranger as a 'fast' class like I do with Barbarians, Monks, and Rogues. That said, making them faster than your average class is trivially easy if you actually want it.

The bolded is how I think the Ranger needs to be built. In many ways the Hunter subclass does it right where you can pick and customize the Ranger depending on how you want them to play. Those choices probably should have been part of the base class.

[Dr. Cliché]

An 8th level Ranger can climb the most treacherous mountain with no reduction in speed

Bear in mind that having a Climb speed does not mean you can climb difficult surfaces (such as a treacherous mountain) without first succeeding an athletics check.

Indeed, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the DC for climbing "the most treacherous mountain" is pretty damn high, and neither Land's Stride nor the Ranger's Climb Speed gives any bonus to that check.

And if you made the mistake of playing a Dex-Ranger with low or average strength . . . have fun with that. :smallyuk:

[Kane0]

Can confirm, Kane0 does good work.

I see what you did there :smallwink:



They arent necessarily the fastest, but theyre really, really hard to make slower, and the more time they have to prepare, the better they are at slowing down and controlling their enemies movements.



I think there are enough elements to the Ranger Archetype, that in service of the 5E balance philosophy (as I understand it), the chassis should have had (an) additional configuration point(s) to select which portions of it the character most exemplifies, instead of implementing a bunch of it incompletely and with little internal synergy.


The bolded is how I think the Ranger needs to be built. In many ways the Hunter subclass does it right where you can pick and customize the Ranger depending on how you want them to play. Those choices probably should have been part of the base class.


May I humbly present.




Level
Prof
Special Abilities
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1
2
Natural Explorer, Quarry
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
2
Fighting Style, Nature's Boon, Spellcasting
2
2
-
-
-
-


3
2
Clade
3
3
-
-
-
-


4
2
ASI
3
3
-
-
-
-


5
3
Extra Attack, Expertise
4
4
2
-
-
-


6
3
Nature's Boon
5
4
2
-
-
-


7
3
Clade Feature
5
4
3
-
-
-


8
3
ASI
6
4
3
-
-
-


9
4
-
7
4
3
2
-
-


10
4
Nature's Boon
7
4
3
2
-
-


11
4
Clade Feature
8
4
3
3
-
-


12
4
ASI
9
4
3
3
-
-


13
5
-
9
4
3
3
1
-


14
5
Nature's Boon
10
4
3
3
1
-


15
5
Clade Feature
11
4
3
3
2
-


16
5
ASI
11
4
3
3
2
-


17
6
-
12
4
3
3
3
1


18
6
Nature's Boon
13
4
3
3
3
1


19
6
ASI
13
4
3
3
3
2


20
6
Foe Slayer
14
4
3
3
3
2



Hit Dice, Equipment, Skill & Save proficiencies: As PHB
Other Proficiencies: Choose one from Cartographer’s tools, Cobbler’s tools, Cook’s utensils, Navigator’s Tools, Land or Water vehicles or one language of your choice.

Level 1: Natural Explorer
You gain your choice of either a Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement speed.
In addition, while travelling for an hour or more you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to any Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks you or your allies make as long as they can see and hear you.

Level 1: Quarry
When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can mark the target for 1 minute or until you lose your concentration as if you were concentrating on a spell. Once per turn, when you or an ally within 10 feet of you hit the target with an attack and deal damage to it (including when you mark it) the attack deals an additional 1d4 damage.
You can use this feature to mark your Quarry a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
This feature's extra damage increases to 1d6 at 6th level and to 1d8 at 14th level, and extends to allies within 30 feet of you at 10th level.

Level 2: Fighting Style
As per the PHB/Tashas

Level 2: Spellcasting
As per PHB, except updated spells known (see table above) and Elemental Weapon and Find Steed are added to the Ranger spell list.

Level 2: Nature's Boon
At level 2 and again at levels 6, 10, 14 and 18 choose one from the options below:

Camouflage: When you take the Hide action you become invisible until you move more than 5 feet during your turn, make an attack or cast a spell. Becoming Invisible in this way requires your concentration, as if concentrating on a spell.
If selected a second time, you can remain invisible until you move more than your movement speed instead of more than 5 feet.
Healing Salves: As a part of a long rest, you can prepare a number of medicinal salves equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Each salve restores HP equal to 1d8 + Ranger level and can be applied to a creature using an action. Unused salves expire at the end of a long rest.
If selected a second time, each healing salve applied a creature also provides the benefits of a Lesser Restoration spell or removes one level of exhaustion.
Honed Senses: You gain Darkvision out to a range of 60 feet and can take the Search action as a bonus action.
If selected a second time, your Darkvision allows you to see through magical darkness and being unable to see a creature does not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
Land's Stride: Spells and magical effects cannot reduce your movement speed and you can ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
If selected a second time, you increase all your movement speeds by 10 feet and gain advantage on saving throws against being being Paralysed, Restrained or Stunned
Primal Connection: As an action, you can expend a spell slot to detect the presence and direction of Aberration, Celestial, Elemental, Fey, Fiend and Undead type creatures within one mile of you for ten minutes per level of the spell slot expended. You also learn additional spells that do not count as spells Known and can each be cast once per long rest without expending a spell slot: Speak With Animals at 2nd level, Beast Sense at 5th level, Speak with Plants at 9th level, Locate Creature at 13th level and Commune with Nature at 17th level.
If selected a second time, you change from spells Known to spells Prepared (half level + Wis bonus) and gain Ritual Casting for spells you have prepared.
Traps: As an action you can set up a magical trap, which occupies a 5 foot radius space within reach and is hidden from view; requiring a successful check against your Spell DC to spot. A creature that first moves into this space or starts its turn there must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your spell DC or be either Blinded, Grappled or Poisoned (your choice when you lay the trap) until the end of their next turn. Once you deploy a number of traps equal to your Wisdom bonus you cannot do deploy any more until you finish a long rest or you expend a Ranger spell slot to create one.
If selected a second time, you can deploy a trap up to 30 feet away to a spot you can see, and each trap can be triggered twice.

Level 3: Clade
Choose one Ranger Clade to follow, same as the books.

Level 4: ASI
As per PHB

Level 5: Extra Attack
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
If you already have the Extra Attack feature you instead increase one attribute of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Level 5: Primal Focus
You regain one expended use of your Quarry feature at the end of a short rest.

Level 20: Foe Slayer
You can add your Wisdom bonus (min 1) to attack and damage rolls you make against your Quarry.

[Erose]

Perhaps a screaming, drooling Barbarian attacking something without any regard for his/her own safety...just might move a little faster than a nimble footed quick shooter with a bow & quiver sounds about right, to me. However, that may not be RAW.

[Sorinth]

Perhaps a screaming, drooling Barbarian attacking something without any regard for his/her own safety...just might move a little faster than a nimble footed quick shooter with a bow & quiver sounds about right, to me. However, that may not be RAW.

But should the Barbarian move faster then the nimble elf wielding two scimitars alongside their panther animal companion?

[Erose]

But should the Barbarian move faster then the nimble elf wielding two scimitars alongside their panther animal companion?

Anything that has complete disregard for it's own safety and will attack with reckless abandon is going to move faster than a calculated dual wielding individual. Perhaps not the animal companion. That's a different subject and set of circumstances.

[Sorinth]

Anything that has complete disregard for it's own safety and will attack with reckless abandon is going to move faster than a calculated dual wielding individual. Perhaps not the animal companion. That's a different subject and set of circumstances.

That was more a reference to Drizzt who is know for speeding around the battlefield, though he does have magical assistance, it's still a concept that many would no doubt like to emulate.

But more to your point shouldn't the Barbarian move faster then the Monk and Rogue then?

[Erose]

That was more a reference to Drizzt who is know for speeding around the battlefield, though he does have magical assistance, it's still a concept that many would no doubt like to emulate.

But more to your point shouldn't the Barbarian move faster then the Monk and Rogue then?

That's a debate I didn't raise toward the Monk or Rogue. They're quite nimble & have their own ways to escape the menacing froth of a berserker.

[strangebloke]

I see what you did there :smallwink:





May I humbly present.




Level
Prof
Special Abilities
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1
2
Natural Explorer, Quarry
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
2
Fighting Style, Nature's Boon, Spellcasting
2
2
-
-
-
-


3
2
Clade
3
3
-
-
-
-


4
2
ASI
3
3
-
-
-
-


5
3
Extra Attack, Expertise
4
4
2
-
-
-


6
3
Nature's Boon
5
4
2
-
-
-


7
3
Clade Feature
5
4
3
-
-
-


8
3
ASI
6
4
3
-
-
-


9
4
-
7
4
3
2
-
-


10
4
Nature's Boon
7
4
3
2
-
-


11
4
Clade Feature
8
4
3
3
-
-


12
4
ASI
9
4
3
3
-
-


13
5
-
9
4
3
3
1
-


14
5
Nature's Boon
10
4
3
3
1
-


15
5
Clade Feature
11
4
3
3
2
-


16
5
ASI
11
4
3
3
2
-


17
6
-
12
4
3
3
3
1


18
6
Nature's Boon
13
4
3
3
3
1


19
6
ASI
13
4
3
3
3
2


20
6
Foe Slayer
14
4
3
3
3
2



Hit Dice, Equipment, Skill & Save proficiencies: As PHB
Other Proficiencies: Choose one from Cartographer’s tools, Cobbler’s tools, Cook’s utensils, Navigator’s Tools, Land or Water vehicles or one language of your choice.

Level 1: Natural Explorer
You gain your choice of either a Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement speed.
In addition, while travelling for an hour or more you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to any Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks you or your allies make as long as they can see and hear you.

Level 1: Quarry
As per Tasha's Favored Foe, except the extra damage applies once per turn for allies that can see and hear you as well as yourself.

Level 2: Fighting Style
Choose one from the list of styles above

Level 2: Spellcasting
As per PHB, except updated spells known (see table above) and Elemental Weapon and Find Steed are added to the Ranger spell list.

Level 2: Nature's Boon
At level 2 and again at levels 6, 10, 14 and 18 choose one from the options below:

Camouflage: When you take the Hide action you become invisible until you move more than 5 feet during your turn, make an attack or cast a spell.
If selected a second time you can remain invisible until you move more than your movement speed instead of more than 5 feet.
Primal Connection: As per Primal Awareness (both PHB and Tasha's).
If selected a second time you change from spells Known to spells Prepared (half level + Wis) and gain Ritual Casting for spells you have prepared.
Healing Salves: As a part of a long rest, you can prepare a number of healing salves equal to your Wisdom modifier. Each salve restores HP equal to 1d8 + Ranger level and can be applied to a creature using an action.
If selected a second time each healing salve applied a creature also provides the benefits of a Lesser Restoration spell or removes one level of exhaustion. Unused salves expire at the end of a long rest.
Honed Senses: You gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet and can take the Search action as a bonus action.
If selected a second time, your Darkvision allows you to see through magical darkness and being unable to see a creature does not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
Land's Stride: Spells and magical effects cannot reduce your movement speed and you can ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
If selected a second time, you increase all your movement speeds by 10 feet and gain advantage on saving throws against being being Paralysed, Restrained or Stunned
Traps: As an action you can lay a trap, which occupies a 5 foot radius space within reach. A creature that first moves into this space or starts its turn there must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your spell DC or be either Blinded, Deafened, Poisoned or knocked Prone (your choice when you lay the trap) until the start of their next turn. You can have a number of traps active at any given time equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), any additional trap you place renders the oldest existing trap inert.
If selected a second time, you can deploy a trap up to 30 feet away from you to a spot you can see, and each trap occupies a 10 foot radius area.

Level 3: Clade
Choose one Ranger Clade to follow, same as the books.

Level 4: ASI
As per PHB

Level 5: Extra Attack
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
If you already have the Extra Attack feature you instead increase one attribute of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Level 5: Primal Focus
You regain one expended use of your Quarry feature at the end of a short rest.

Level 20: Foe Slayer
You can add your Wisdom bonus (min 1) to attack and damage rolls you make against your Quarry.


Seems strong but also cool as heck. I really like the branching options, although I can't help but feel to some extent that some of the later picks would feel less exciting. Still, very very very cool and I will consider trying it out in my game.

[Sorinth]

That's a debate I didn't raise toward the Monk or Rogue. They're quite nimble & have they're own ways to escape the menacing froth of a berserker.

You didn't bring it up but it's the logical result of your statement "Anything that has complete disregard for it's own safety and will attack with reckless abandon is going to move faster than a calculated dual wielding individual"

A calculated dual wielder can describe monk or rogue just as easily as ranger. Though admittedly Monks rarely dual wield. So why should the nimble Monks and Rogue be able to outrun the berserker but the nimble Ranger can't?

[Erose]

You didn't bring it up but it's the logical result of your statement "Anything that has complete disregard for it's own safety and will attack with reckless abandon is going to move faster than a calculated dual wielding individual"

A calculated dual wielder can describe monk or rogue just as easily as ranger. Though admittedly Monks rarely dual wield. So why should the nimble Monks and Rogue be able to outrun the berserker but the nimble Ranger can't?

I'll go old school without offering any further insight. Rules is Rules.

[PhantomSoul]

You didn't bring it up but it's the logical result of your statement "Anything that has complete disregard for it's own safety and will attack with reckless abandon is going to move faster than a calculated dual wielding individual"

A calculated dual wielder can describe monk or rogue just as easily as ranger. Though admittedly Monks rarely dual wield. So why should the nimble Monks and Rogue be able to outrun the berserker but the nimble Ranger can't?

I suppose being the Monk isn't just a calculated dual-wielding individual; its a faster-than-baseline calculated potentially dual-wielding individual! (So monk gets "actually super fast" as an explicit trait; Ranger gets "harder to slow down & able to buff for added speed"; Barbarian gets "I'm faster when I'm not too weighed down or impeded, but, like, not a MONK".)

[Sorinth]

I suppose being the Monk isn't just a calculated dual-wielding individual; its a faster-than-baseline calculated potentially dual-wielding individual! (So monk gets "actually super fast" as an explicit trait; Ranger gets "harder to slow down & able to buff for added speed"; Barbarian gets "I'm faster when I'm not too weighed down or impeded, but, like, not a MONK".)

I think the best explanation for Monk is less that they have super speed and more that they have super anticipation. So they anticipate enemies movements so well they seem much faster then they really are much like how for many sports having high iq leads to positioning such that they get open or catch opposing players flat-footed. That gets simplified to having higher base speed.

For Rogue's though, there's really no reason they should be faster then Ranger's beyond potentially armor differences if they apply.

Frankly I think they should've just given Cunning Action to all 3 of the Monk, Rogue, Ranger. Maybe have it come online at an earlier level for Rogue compared to Monk & Ranger.

[loki_ragnarock]

I think the best explanation for Monk is less that they have super speed and more that they have super anticipation. So they anticipate enemies movements so well they seem much faster then they really are much like how for many sports having high iq leads to positioning such that they get open or catch opposing players flat-footed. That gets simplified to having higher base speed.

For Rogue's though, there's really no reason they should be faster then Ranger's beyond potentially armor differences if they apply.

Frankly I think they should've just given Cunning Action to all 3 of the Monk, Rogue, Ranger. Maybe have it come online at an earlier level for Rogue compared to Monk & Ranger.

I think you're overthinking Naruto running.

[Kane0]

Seems strong but also cool as heck. I really like the branching options, although I can't help but feel to some extent that some of the later picks would feel less exciting. Still, very very very cool and I will consider trying it out in my game.


Its a definite jump from PHB and probably Tashas Ranger, having proper features but also keeping the original subclasses that were on the stronger side. I could see dropping the Hit Die to d8 to compensate.
Unless something in particular struck you as out of place?

Regardless, if you do please give feedback! Feedback is good!



Frankly I think they should've just given Cunning Action to all 3 of the Monk, Rogue, Ranger. Maybe have it come online at an earlier level for Rogue compared to Monk & Ranger.

Alternatively create a Fighting Style for Bonus Action Dashing and/or Disengaging, then adjust the Barb, Monk and Rogue so they get a Fighting Style with that among the (limited) selection.

[Theodoxus]

Its a definite jump from PHB and probably Tashas Ranger, having proper features but also keeping the original subclasses that were on the stronger side. I could see dropping the Hit Die to d8 to compensate.
Unless something in particular struck you as out of place?

Regardless, if you do please give feedback! Feedback is good!

As an option for Ranger, it's fine. I still think it's missing je ne sais quoi. Of the three half casters, Paladin and Artificer work on a different level than Ranger. Paladin is the "Fighting Cleric", all warrior with priestlike powers. Artificer is the "Fighting Wizard", all warrior (well, alchemist is the outlier there, but it's still an ok combatant) with magelike powers. Ranger should be the "Fighting Druid", all warrior with druidism as its go to powersource, and it just... falls flat. Now, my interpretation of a half caster certainly isn't the only one, but it's the one I personally like, and I think a Ranger built along those lines would fit the rest of 5Es class dynamics better than trying to shoehorn Aragorn/Dritt'z/WoW Hunter as a class instead.

Now, I don't think (necessarily, outside of a subclass, perhaps) that Ranger should have the wildshape ability in any aspect (I was never a fan of, I forget the name, the prestige class in 3rd Ed that allowed Rangers to partially shapechange) but something closer to a Land Druid in casting mechanics, and maybe the ability to burn spell slots for healing like a Moon Druid. I also think they should gain an animal companion as a base ability (or, taking your rebuild into consideration, as an option in Nature's Boon), that acts as the PHB Beastmaster pet (though with Tasha's 3 choices), and then Tasha's revised Beastmaster would become the defacto subclass, gaining refined control.


Alternatively create a Fighting Style for Bonus Action Dashing and/or Disengaging, then adjust the Barb, Monk and Rogue so they get a Fighting Style with that among the (limited) selection.

I'd be all for giving every martial class a Fighting Style with options that fit the class. Put the FS on Barbarian, Monk and Rogue at 4th level and it will disincentivize dipping those classes to gain a FS. (I doubt anyone would dip out at 4th level to grab a second FS before getting the goods at 5th in those three classes. But maybe... would that be considered a trap option?)

[Kane0]

I also think they should gain an animal companion as a base ability (or, taking your rebuild into consideration, as an option in Nature's Boon), that acts as the PHB Beastmaster pet (though with Tasha's 3 choices), and then Tasha's revised Beastmaster would become the defacto subclass, gaining refined control.


Funny you should say that, because thats what i've done in the form of a find beast companion spell similar to find familiar and find steed (which beastmaster improves on).

I didnt include it because thats getting more extensive than initially posited in the thread but:

Find Companion
2nd-level Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Instantaneous

You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an animal. Choose a beast that is of large size or smaller and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the companion has the statistics of the chosen form.
Your companion acts independently of you on your initiative, but it always obeys your commands.
When within 100 feet you can communicate with your companion telepathically, and when you cast a spell with a range of self you can choose to touch your companion to also target them with that spell.
As an action, you can dismiss your companion permanently.
A companion that drops to 0 hit points disappears, leaving behind no physical form. If you cast this spell while you already have a companion, you instead restore your companion to its hit point maximum and can cause it to adopt a new form that meets the same requirements above.
At Higher Levels: If you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the companion is up to CR 1/2. If you use a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the companion is up to CR 1. If you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the companion is up to CR 2.

[Sorinth]

Alternatively create a Fighting Style for Bonus Action Dashing and/or Disengaging, then adjust the Barb, Monk and Rogue so they get a Fighting Style with that among the (limited) selection.

I'm not sure the balance for that would be quite right but it could potentially work if it went along with other changes.

[strangebloke]

I'm not sure the balance for that would be quite right but it could potentially work if it went along with other changes.

I'd be in favor of adding something like the "Charger" feat to the core rules. Something like adding the following text to the end of the dash action description: "You can make one melee attack at the end of your movement."

It's a general solution to fix what is imo a general problem with how often a melee character will get left out of the fight. As I said earlier in the thread it isn't as though rangers are the only class that feels frustratingly slow if played with a melee style. Fighters and even barbarians can feel the same way.

[Zalabim]

I'd be in favor of adding something like the "Charger" feat to the core rules. Something like adding the following text to the end of the dash action description: "You can make one melee attack at the end of your movement."

It's a general solution to fix what is imo a general problem with how often a melee character will get left out of the fight. As I said earlier in the thread it isn't as though rangers are the only class that feels frustratingly slow if played with a melee style. Fighters and even barbarians can feel the same way.
Needs work. You don't want the Dash action to de facto replace the Attack action for a lot of creatures. This also interacts badly with Dashing as a bonus action. Neither option of "Make the attack a bonus action" or "Make the attack at disadvantage (because obvious/whatever)" feels good to me either.

Funny you should say that, because thats what i've done in the form of a find beast companion spell similar to find familiar and find steed (which beastmaster improves on).

I didnt include it because thats getting more extensive than initially posited in the thread but:

Find Companion
2nd-level Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Instantaneous

You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an animal. Choose a beast that is of large size or smaller and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the companion has the statistics of the chosen form.
Your companion acts independently of you on your initiative, but it always obeys your commands.
When within 100 feet you can communicate with your companion telepathically, and when you cast a spell with a range of self you can choose to touch your companion to also target them with that spell.
As an action, you can dismiss your companion permanently.
A companion that drops to 0 hit points disappears, leaving behind no physical form. If you cast this spell while you already have a companion, you instead restore your companion to its hit point maximum and can cause it to adopt a new form that meets the same requirements above.
At Higher Levels: If you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the companion is up to CR 1/2. If you use a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the companion is up to CR 1. If you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the companion is up to CR 2.
I like this spell.

May I humbly present.




Level
Prof
Special Abilities
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1
2
Natural Explorer, Quarry
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
2
Fighting Style, Nature's Boon, Spellcasting
2
2
-
-
-
-


3
2
Clade
3
3
-
-
-
-


4
2
ASI
3
3
-
-
-
-


5
3
Extra Attack, Expertise
4
4
2
-
-
-


6
3
Nature's Boon
5
4
2
-
-
-


7
3
Clade Feature
5
4
3
-
-
-


8
3
ASI
6
4
3
-
-
-


9
4
-
7
4
3
2
-
-


10
4
Nature's Boon
7
4
3
2
-
-


11
4
Clade Feature
8
4
3
3
-
-


12
4
ASI
9
4
3
3
-
-


13
5
-
9
4
3
3
1
-


14
5
Nature's Boon
10
4
3
3
1
-


15
5
Clade Feature
11
4
3
3
2
-


16
5
ASI
11
4
3
3
2
-


17
6
-
12
4
3
3
3
1


18
6
Nature's Boon
13
4
3
3
3
1


19
6
ASI
13
4
3
3
3
2


20
6
Foe Slayer
14
4
3
3
3
2



Hit Dice, Equipment, Skill & Save proficiencies: As PHB
Other Proficiencies: Choose one from Cartographer’s tools, Cobbler’s tools, Cook’s utensils, Navigator’s Tools, Land or Water vehicles or one language of your choice.

Level 1: Natural Explorer
You gain your choice of either a Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement speed.
In addition, while travelling for an hour or more you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to any Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks you or your allies make as long as they can see and hear you.

Level 1: Quarry
As per Tasha's Favored Foe, except the extra damage applies once per turn for allies that can see and hear you as well as yourself.

Level 2: Fighting Style
Choose one from the list of styles above

Level 2: Spellcasting
As per PHB, except updated spells known (see table above) and Elemental Weapon and Find Steed are added to the Ranger spell list.

Level 2: Nature's Boon
At level 2 and again at levels 6, 10, 14 and 18 choose one from the options below:

Camouflage: When you take the Hide action you become invisible until you move more than 5 feet during your turn, make an attack or cast a spell.
If selected a second time you can remain invisible until you move more than your movement speed instead of more than 5 feet.
Primal Connection: As per Primal Awareness (both PHB and Tasha's).
If selected a second time you change from spells Known to spells Prepared (half level + Wis) and gain Ritual Casting for spells you have prepared.
Healing Salves: As a part of a long rest, you can prepare a number of healing salves equal to your Wisdom modifier. Each salve restores HP equal to 1d8 + Ranger level and can be applied to a creature using an action.
If selected a second time each healing salve applied a creature also provides the benefits of a Lesser Restoration spell or removes one level of exhaustion. Unused salves expire at the end of a long rest.
Honed Senses: You gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet and can take the Search action as a bonus action.
If selected a second time, your Darkvision allows you to see through magical darkness and being unable to see a creature does not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
Land's Stride: Spells and magical effects cannot reduce your movement speed and you can ignore nonmagical difficult terrain.
If selected a second time, you increase all your movement speeds by 10 feet and gain advantage on saving throws against being being Paralysed, Restrained or Stunned
Traps: As an action you can lay a trap, which occupies a 5 foot radius space within reach. A creature that first moves into this space or starts its turn there must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your spell DC or be either Blinded, Deafened, Poisoned or knocked Prone (your choice when you lay the trap) until the start of their next turn. You can have a number of traps active at any given time equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), any additional trap you place renders the oldest existing trap inert.
If selected a second time, you can deploy a trap up to 30 feet away from you to a spot you can see, and each trap occupies a 10 foot radius area.

Level 3: Clade
Choose one Ranger Clade to follow, same as the books.

Level 4: ASI
As per PHB

Level 5: Extra Attack
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
If you already have the Extra Attack feature you instead increase one attribute of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Level 5: Primal Focus
You regain one expended use of your Quarry feature at the end of a short rest.

Level 20: Foe Slayer
You can add your Wisdom bonus (min 1) to attack and damage rolls you make against your Quarry.

I do like the effect of boosting damage for everyone who hits the target, but I don't think its appropriate for this class ability. I think it has to be its own thing, and probably should allow a save to avoid the effect.

Camouflage is Invisibility, at-will, no concentration, available at level 2, and also interacts too well with Hiding as a bonus action. This may not be what you intended.

It looks like the whole main class has been scrubbed of bonus actions. I suspect this is intentional. I'm still going to suggest that the bonus action can be used. It makes sense for many of the Nature's Boons, especially around hiding, healing, and trapping. Basically, "Is this not part of an archetype that wouldn't make sense for dual wielding" If not as a bonus action, as an addendum to other activity, like what you tried with camouflage.

Healing Salves should be less healing. Whether you keep it wisdom bonus or change it to proficiency bonus, it's going to become more healing than second wind or lay on hands are likely to provide. Salves could add a bonus to saving throws, or the ability to remove some magic at later levels, though this does feel a lot like cribbing Paladin. Maybe intentionally go in a different direction then, like offensive or mobility instead. Finally, this feature could also interact with existing poisons, potions, and oils, at least the ability to apply them as a bonus action, or instead give them similar added effects.

Traps could be explicitly magical, as a boon from nature/spirits, like how Nature's Veil is described in Tasha's. Placing as an action is fine for setting up traps when you have advance warning. It seems less fine as a standalone action you might be expected to use in combat. I'm not sure if these are supposed to be one-trigger only, but the second choice could be making the effect include others in the area, or persist for more uses. If you don't want to use a bonus action here, this could be an extra effect added on to when the Ranger casts a spell. Create the trap ether next to you, or next to the target/area of the spell.

I really like the "regain one use of Quarry on short rest" and would extend that to other abilities that I would also suggest should have limited number of uses, like camouflage and traps and healing salves.

Strongly suggest using proficiency bonus instead of wisdom bonus in the number of traps, healing salves, and camouflages. Alternatively, give more a little more bonus for High Wisdom, because I don't feel the incentive is quite there, before Foe Slayer (and it really needs to manifest before level 20.)

[Kane0]

I do like the effect of boosting damage for everyone who hits the target, but I don't think its appropriate for this class ability. I think it has to be its own thing, and probably should allow a save to avoid the effect.

The number one problem I have always had with fixing the ranger is replacing Favored Enemy/implementing a class damage feature that everyone, or at least most people, find agreeable. Not going to say this is my most successful attempt, but it is my smallest step away from official material thanks to Tasha's.
It's meant to still compete with Hunter's Mark and other concentration effects (and be strong enough to justify that cost) but also echo the Paladin's smites and auras in a unique manner. Instead of saying 'screw you in particular' with a spell slot and a fistful of extra damage dice you say 'screw you in particular' and you and your mates get a little extra damage die each to collectively pound the poor soul into the dirt. Which reminds me there was no range limitation to the allies, ill edit that in.



Camouflage is Invisibility, at-will, no concentration, available at level 2, and also interacts too well with Hiding as a bonus action. This may not be what you intended.

Yeah its definitely strong, but you still need to have a means of hiding in the first place (easier for wood elves, halflings, etc) and carries the downside that you are borderline immobile when you use it. Makes for excellent ambushes and the odd getaway, not so much recon. But to be fair it could probably use Concentration at least.



It looks like the whole main class has been scrubbed of bonus actions. I suspect this is intentional. I'm still going to suggest that the bonus action can be used. It makes sense for many of the Nature's Boons, especially around hiding, healing, and trapping. Basically, "Is this not part of an archetype that wouldn't make sense for dual wielding" If not as a bonus action, as an addendum to other activity, like what you tried with camouflage.

It didn't to begin with, save Nature's Veil and Vanish at levels 10 and 14 respectively. TWF, BA spells and subclass features are all still there.
It was also a balance concern, making all these bonus actions would significantly improve how much the Ranger could do at any given time and I didn't want it to be overshadowing. Even the Pally needs to use his action to heal, detect evil, channel/capstone in most cases, etc.



Healing Salves should be less healing. Whether you keep it wisdom bonus or change it to proficiency bonus, it's going to become more healing than second wind or lay on hands are likely to provide. Salves could add a bonus to saving throws, or the ability to remove some magic at later levels, though this does feel a lot like cribbing Paladin. Maybe intentionally go in a different direction then, like offensive or mobility instead. Finally, this feature could also interact with existing poisons, potions, and oils, at least the ability to apply them as a bonus action, or instead give them similar added effects.

Paladins (I know, I tire of the comparisons too) get 5x level in HP they can hand out with no wastage plus can end some conditions using the same pool. A basic Salve Ranger has neither of those benefits and requires a high Wis to have the same numbers, but instead has the ability to have others carry and apply the salves. I think that's a pretty decent tradeoff. The enhanced one can clear exhaustion mimicking Tireless from Tashas but sharing it around on top of the generic Lesser Restoration that covers other ailments beyond HP damage. Dispelling magic or removing curses feels a bit beyond scope to me.



Traps could be explicitly magical, as a boon from nature/spirits, like how Nature's Veil is described in Tasha's. Placing as an action is fine for setting up traps when you have advance warning. It seems less fine as a standalone action you might be expected to use in combat. I'm not sure if these are supposed to be one-trigger only, but the second choice could be making the effect include others in the area, or persist for more uses. If you don't want to use a bonus action here, this could be an extra effect added on to when the Ranger casts a spell. Create the trap ether next to you, or next to the target/area of the spell.

Yes you are right, they should be called out as magic and the enhanced version should catch all within their area.



I really like the "regain one use of Quarry on short rest" and would extend that to other abilities that I would also suggest should have limited number of uses, like camouflage and traps and healing salves.

Yes that would be a good thing to add to enhanced versions I think.



Strongly suggest using proficiency bonus instead of wisdom bonus in the number of traps, healing salves, and camouflages. Alternatively, give more a little more bonus for High Wisdom, because I don't feel the incentive is quite there, before Foe Slayer (and it really needs to manifest before level 20.)

To follow the Tasha's design philosophy? Fair call, but I think that might be handing too much for free and the Boons are already good enough as is. I do like the secondary stat to stay optional and rewarded, Wis is not strictly required for Rangers so half the boons benefit from Wis and half don't.
Oh, and Natural Explorer also incentivises having a bit of Wis.

[Sorinth]

Yeah its definitely strong, but you still need to have a means of hiding in the first place (easier for wood elves, halflings, etc) and carries the downside that you are borderline immobile when you use it. Makes for excellent ambushes and the odd getaway, not so much recon. But to be fair it could probably use Concentration at least

Why can't it be used for recon?

The party is on the outside of a cave they want to recon. Ranger hides since no one is around and turns invisible, they then slowly creep into the cave 5ft a turn maintaining the invisibility and can recon the whole cave system while invisible. Might be a bit slow doing it until level 6 but there's rarely any time pressure anyways.

Similarly once the feature is selected a 2nd time the ranger will be able to be invisible the whole day only breaking during combat/utility spell casts and they'll go back invisible right after. They probably can even sleep invisible given how it's worded.


Now it's worth noting Gloomstalker is essentially the same in certain campaigns so maybe it's not as big a deal as it first sounds. But if you want it to be specific for ambushes then it probably needs a little work.

[Specter]

I mean... Longstrider?

[Kane0]

The party is on the outside of a cave they want to recon. Ranger hides since no one is around and turns invisible, they then slowly creep into the cave 5ft a turn maintaining the invisibility and can recon the whole cave system while invisible. Might be a bit slow doing it until level 6 but there's rarely any time pressure anyways.

Yeah that was an intended use case.



Similarly once the f like toeature is selected a 2nd time the ranger will be able to be invisible the whole day only breaking during combat/utility spell casts and they'll go back invisible right after. They probably can even sleep invisible given how it's worded.

That not so intended.

Requiring concentration will curb the worst of that, but straight up at will invis is a tier 4 feature for wizards and warlocks so getting that at level 6 (potentially) calls for some sort of extra limiting factor.



Now it's worth noting Gloomstalker is essentially the same in certain campaigns so maybe it's not as big a deal as it first sounds. But if you want it to be specific for ambushes then it probably needs a little work.

Good point.

Perhaps on top of adding concentration change the enhanced version to retain invis until start of next turn after attacking or moving too far instead of the full movement.

[strangebloke]

Needs work. You don't want the Dash action to de facto replace the Attack action for a lot of creatures. This also interacts badly with Dashing as a bonus action. Neither option of "Make the attack a bonus action" or "Make the attack at disadvantage (because obvious/whatever)" feels good to me either.

I mean if the charge feature de facto replaces the attack action for a monster, its likely that the creature wouldn't have been able to do anything normally, so this isn't worse than the status quo.

BA dashes are a problem, admittedly. Its one thing for monks and rogues, its another entirely for orcs and "anyone who casts expeditious retreat." I think that its likely that "attack as a bonus action after dashing and ending your movement" is the best compromise. It's bit weird for most martial classes because of BA competition but personally I'm fine with melee fighters getting the larger buff here. Melee fighters have it hard here. Monks for example already can dash and full attack (though they usually don't need to)

[Sorinth]

Yeah that was an intended use case.


That not so intended.

Requiring concentration will curb the worst of that, but straight up at will invis is a tier 4 feature for wizards and warlocks so getting that at level 6 (potentially) calls for some sort of extra limiting factor.


Good point.

Perhaps on top of adding concentration change the enhanced version to retain invis until start of next turn after attacking or moving too far instead of the full movement.

I would be tempted to rethink the whole idea of turning invisible. I would be tempted to base the "ambush" ability around making the whole party better at Stealth/Initiative since an ambush mostly requires everyone to be stealthy and a good initiative is great when surprising enemies. So maybe something like when using the Help Action to aid someone hiding they get a bonus to Stealth (On top of normal advantage) equal to the Ranger's Proficiency bonus. Chosen a 2nd time they also gain the bonus to their Initiative check.

[Kane0]

BA dashes are a problem, admittedly. Its one thing for monks and rogues, its another entirely for orcs and "anyone who casts expeditious retreat." I think that its likely that "attack as a bonus action after dashing and ending your movement" is the best compromise. It's bit weird for most martial classes because of BA competition but personally I'm fine with melee fighters getting the larger buff here. Melee fighters have it hard here. Monks for example already can dash and full attack (though they usually don't need to)

Charger (the feat)
+1 Strength or Dexterity
- When you use your action to Dash you can make one melee weapon attack or shove attempt at advantage at the end of your movement. You cannot move again on your turn after you make this attack or shove.


I would be tempted to rethink the whole idea of turning invisible. I would be tempted to base the "ambush" ability around making the whole party better at Stealth/Initiative since an ambush mostly requires everyone to be stealthy and a good initiative is great when surprising enemies. So maybe something like when using the Help Action to aid someone hiding they get a bonus to Stealth (On top of normal advantage) equal to the Ranger's Proficiency bonus. Chosen a 2nd time they also gain the bonus to their Initiative check.
But that just sounds like Pass Without Trace, and would step a bit on the Gloom Stalker

[Saelethil]

I would be tempted to rethink the whole idea of turning invisible. I would be tempted to base the "ambush" ability around making the whole party better at Stealth/Initiative since an ambush mostly requires everyone to be stealthy and a good initiative is great when surprising enemies. So maybe something like when using the Help Action to aid someone hiding they get a bonus to Stealth (On top of normal advantage) equal to the Ranger's Proficiency bonus. Chosen a 2nd time they also gain the bonus to their Initiative check.

Kane0’s Natural Explorer already applies the Ranger’s wisdom modifier to the entire parties strength, dexterity, and wisdom ability checks. As written this is a boost to the entire parties stealth and initiative as long as they are in range.
Maybe the second part of of “Camouflage” could apply the Natural Explorer bonus with only a minute of travel? I would say that it could just always apply but that seems like it might be too powerful.

[Kane0]

Kane0’s Natural Explorer already applies the Ranger’s wisdom modifier to the entire parties strength, dexterity, and wisdom ability checks. As written this is a boost to the entire parties stealth and initiative as long as they are in range.
Maybe the second part of of “Camouflage” could apply the Natural Explorer bonus with only a minute of travel? I would say that it could just always apply but that seems like it might be too powerful.

While traveling, so arguably would apply to random encounters.

Hmm, has potential. Wouldnt be any more concerning than the paladins save aura (also level 6)

[strangebloke]

Charger (the feat)
+1 Strength or Dexterity
- When you use your action to Dash you can make one melee weapon attack or shove attempt at advantage at the end of your movement. You cannot move again on your turn after you make this attack or shove.

This is just your fix for Charger? It seems fine on its own but I am more concerned with how slow movement impacts monsters as well as characters.

[Kane0]

This is just your fix for Charger? It seems fine on its own but I am more concerned with how slow movement impacts monsters as well as characters.

Fair enough, disregard that then.
Monsters too slow to catch mobile adventurers, or monsters wasting time/actions closing into melee range? If the former, I see that as a feature rather than a bug, if the latter I think that would be best solved with more diverse monster design (there is a definite leaning towards melee bruiser types and not as much cavalry, artillery, control, etc)

[Chronos]

One of the UA versions of the ranger got to dash with a bonus action, like rogues. That adds a lot of mobility. In fact, that UA version felt pretty good in general.

[Kane0]

One of the UA versions of the ranger got to dash with a bonus action, like rogues. That adds a lot of mobility. In fact, that UA version felt pretty good in general.

Revised Ranger 2016, 8th level feature called Fleet of Foot. In Tasha's design approach that would translate as an optional replacement feature for Land's Stride.