A versatile cleric build in Forgotten Realm settings?

[Nelfin]

Hello everyone,

I am starting a 3.5 game and I would like to have some advice for a cleric build. But before that, some context. I have played a scenario in the 3rd edition some 20 years ago in the Forgotten Realm settings. After this first game of introduction, I created a cleric of Selune that should have been my character for a little of adventures. But life is life and I never had the chance to actually play this character. And now, we wanted to play again together. We play on roll20 and it already has the character sheet for 3.5 and we have access to the 3.5 material. So we decided we could go with 3.5. Since we have access to a lot more of materials than before and that I never played my ckeric, I thought that I could change my character creation. We start at level 1.

Basically, I am a DD newbie (so please keep in mind that I am certainly wrong on many of my guesses) that want some advice on a character creation. I have mainly read the Player Handbook and some forum stuff on cleric builds, noticeably this cleric handbook (hum... can't post link yet) but it is not the only one.

My companions of adventures are a rogue, a bard/ranger and potentially another one (likely to be a druid or a ranger: she likes animals XD) which is an rpg novice. I think we have enough damage but I am not sure about other aspects. What I think is creating a versatile cleric. Versatile as in being able to fill the gaps at higher level depending on what the other players will actually do and not as in being able to do everything at once. What I think may be lacking are: a face, a frontline, a buffer and a primary caster. (I also thought than disrupting the ennemy could be an idea, see below)

Also I want my cleric to be on par with the other characters and not a god like machine that outshines the others. So I exclude the Divine Metamagic + Persistent spell stuff since it seems you can be a fighter++ with spellcasting ability with this. I don't want for my cleric to be subpar either. I don't know if I actually have to worry about this since the only one that likes optimization is the rogue but I also have no idea what the other characeters can do so I need some advices here. By subpar, I mean my character wouldn't be there, it would be the same. However, I am totally fine with not being the one kills everything but helps in doing so, for example by casting a well placed wall of force or charm person to divide the enemy.

Let me know if you need more context. Now on the details.

What is not for debate:

human
cleric of Selune
chaotic good
Moon domain which will never be traded for the corresponding Moon devotion (by the way, do you have any idea of what the Moon devotion could be?). I think it is a crappy domain though.

I wrote some background and I really don't want to rewrite it XD

Ah my ability scores are 10-12-13-15-17-18. Yeah it was awfully good rolls!

What is likely to happen:

I like to have a load **** of skills so I will certainly take a cloistered cleric (accepted by the DM). I don't intend to immediately trade for the devotion but it is a possibility if I feel the need to.
Initiate of Selune feat, likely at level 3. I know it is a little bit of redundant with the Moon domain though. But I like the Moonweb spell and it is what actually made me think about battlefield control.
Travel domain in addition to the Moon domain. It is a nice domain with a good devotion feat (if needed) and goes well with adventuring.


So it is a load of constraints. But maybe, there is something that can be done here.

At the moment, what I think that is good is that battlefield control stuff: the need for frontline/buffer/primary spellcaster are less pregnant. But it seems that the wizard spell list is more interesting for this purpose. There are some cleric spells that I found tough:

Obscuring mist
Darkness, Enthrall (even though the PC could also be enthralled!), Hold person, Silence
Blindness/Deafness, Deeper darkness, Stone shape, Wind wall
Control water
Wall of stone
Nothing?
Antimagic field (although a little bit risky)
Storm of vengeance

This list is certainly not exhaustive as I only skimmed over the cleric spell list in the Player handbook.

For the ability score, it would be something like:
Str: 13
Dex: 10
Con: 17
Cha: 15
Int: 12
Wis: 18

For the feats, maybe Improved Initiative. For the other I don't really know.

What do you think about this battle field control thing? Advices on other approaches is wellcome.


Erf, such a long thread!

[Anthrowhale]

The lack of an arcane caster stands out, so the travel domain seems like a solid choice.

You may want to consider the Spontaneous Domain (PHB II) alternative class feature. Paired with the L2 Substitute Domain spell, this provides some significant versatility over the spells of (Chaos, Chastity, Good, Knowledge, Moon, Night, Protection, Travel).

In terms of race, a shapechanger is a natural. Amongst the possibilities, I like Hengeyokai the most. They were updated in Dragon Magazine #318 to be Humanoid[Shapechanger] with LA+0. The Sparrow is impressive for giving fine size, but there are many other interesting possibilities as well. If you do go this way, the Surrogate Spellcasting feat (Savage Species) is a natural choice to allow spellcasting in alternate forms.

There's also the Divine Magician alternative class feature (Complete Mage) which allows you to swap one domain for a spell of your choice from the wizard list amongst {Abjuration, Necromancy, Divination}. There are solid spell picks available at each level.

[Saintheart]

With that list of requirements, at level 1 I would suggest Cloistered Cleric as said, hang onto Knowledge domain for the time being, pick up Intuitive Attack from BoED, pick up Knowledge Devotion, assign 1 skill point to Knowledge (Arcana), (Planes), (Religion), (Nature), (Local). WIS 18, INT 17 (bear with me), cast Lore of the Gods at the start of the adventuring day, and use a longspear. You're now at least a competent backline spear fighter who's pulling at least a +4 to attack and a +1 to damage on the vast majority of creatures likely to try and punch your friends in the face, since Knowledge Devotion gives you at least a +1 at the outset of every encounter to attack and damage, and Intuitive Attack allows you to push WIS to STR for the longspear. You stand behind your friends and poke the enemy while casting.

And that's where you should stay for quite a while. Cleric frontlineage only really comes online with Divine Power as a fifth level spell, which is many moons away at level 9 or 10 for you.

[Nelfin]

@Anthrowhale

Thanks for pointing the alternative class features. Now you mention that, I remember reading something about casting spontaneously any spell of the accessible domains from the domain spell slot. I wonder if it is not a feat though... (Indeed a feat: Spontaneous Domains from Complete Champion)

Just to be sure about the shapechanger, you are talking about the lycanthropes? Well obviously about another type of lycanthrope that a werebear for example but that should follow the rules for the lycanthrope that can be found in the Monster Manual? So +2 Wisdom for example?

So this is a caster approach so buff and prime caster should not be a problem in higher level. And as Saintheart said, frontlining as a cleric comes inline with Divine Power, so this build should also be able to fill a frontline gap if needed since, as I understand it, Power attack is the only important feat for frontlining as a cleric. Thanks!

PS: Ah I forgot but Selune has only 5 domains for me: Chaos, Good, Protection, Moon and Travel. I assume you took the other 3 domains from Dragon Magazine? But still, Substitute Domain on 5 domains in already pretty good!


@Saintheart

Just to be clear about 3 things:

the prerequisite for Intuitive attack is a base bonus attack of +1 which I don't meet as a level 1 cloistered cleric. Does that mean that I hold on the choice of a feat till level 2? Is it possible by the RAW (which stands for Rules As Written, right?) even if I think my DM would allow that.
I don't understand the benefit of casting Lore of the Gods at the start of an adventuring day. It gives a +5 bonus on a knowledge check for 10 minutes/level. Is it to obtaining a larger bonus via the Knowledge devotion on the first encounter? Even though, considering the duration of the spell, I don't think it is worth it. Is it something else?
Considering that I have Intuitive attack, shouldn't the attack bonus should be at least +5? 4 from Wisdom modifier + at least 1 from knowledge devotion. The bonus should stack here. This is just a nitpick to be sure that I have understood the rules.


The build is good from the beginning and that's great. Need just to see how to turn into a prime caster if needed later on XD

Many moons away... Nice!

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks for pointing the alternative class features. Now you mention that, I remember reading something about casting spontaneously any spell of the accessible domains from the domain spell slot. I wonder if it is not a feat though... (Indeed a feat: Spontaneous Domains from Complete Champion)

The ACF is in some ways better than the feat, because you can cast multiple domain spells at the same level in the same day (possibly from different domains with application of Substitute Domain). You do lose access to spontaneous healing, but that can be made up for with a wand a lesser vigor or something. (There are many ways to heal.)


Just to be sure about the shapechanger, you are talking about the lycanthropes? Well obviously about another type of lycanthrope that a werebear for example but that should follow the rules for the lycanthrope that can be found in the Monster Manual? So +2 Wisdom for example?

Hengeyokai are not lycanthropes, although they are reminiscent. They are significantly toned down down. They do have Human/Hybrid/Animal forms like a lycanthrope, but they are LA+0 instead of LA+2. They also don't go crazy when there is a full moon and don't have alignment restrictions or animal hit dice. Overall, they are much more playable. They are detailed in Oriental Adventures and have a 3.5 update in Dragon #318.


PS: Ah I forgot but Selune has only 5 domains for me: Chaos, Good, Protection, Moon and Travel. I assume you took the other 3 domains from Dragon Magazine? But still, Substitute Domain on 5 domains in already pretty good!

I was looking at Troacctid's list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vTqo16E_7z1S6o1PAL74PkJXVk88KKtb5_g43SPXpc7Zf7AKd BA8tZT4cFqD5lpzHIrErnEsCdIM5es/pubhtml) for deity domains. Some of them do apparently come from Dragon magazine.

[Nelfin]

After reading carefully Spontaneous Domain (the ACF in PHBII) and Substitute Domain (Complete Champion), I am not sure to understand how they actually interact.

For instance, I have the Moon and Travel domains. I choose the Moon domain as my spontaneous one. If I use Substitute domain to swap Travel with let's say Protection, there should not have any problem. But if I swap Moon to obtain Protection, I have access to Protection and Travel spells for the domain slot and the Protection and Travel powers. What about the spontaneous part? Does that mean:

I still can cast Moon spell spontaneously (as it is not said that the character needs to have access to the domain any further than at level 1) or not (as I think it is intended to) since I don't have access any longer to the Moon domain?
I can now cast Protection spells spontaneously (since I swapped with my spontaneous domain) or not (since it is not the domain as I chose at first)?


Thanks for the clarification on shapechanger and mostly for the source reference. I need to look at Oriental Adventures now XD.

[Anthrowhale]

Substitute domain also says you do not have access to the old domain.

...you lose the granted powers and spells of the domain to which you have given up access.

So for 1 the answer is "not".

For 2. I believe you can cast the protection spells spontaneously although there is a nontrivial interaction here.

It says:

...You can "lose" any prepared spell ... to cast any spell of the same level or lower on that domain list. Your choice is permanent...

...you gain the granted power of the new domain, as well as access to any of its spells that you can cast—though you must still prepare the spells normally.

There are two interactions here.
(a) The 'normal' preparation for the spontaneous domain is spontaneous, so this clause does nothing to change the way you prepare domain spells (i.e. not at all in this case).
(b) The 'permanent' clause in Spontaneous Domain Casting is explicitly overridden by Substitute Domain.

Generally speaking, the rules operate on an specific exception basis, so if you regard Substitute Domain as the exception, this makes sense. On the other hand, you might check with your DM.

[Nelfin]

Yep I need to check with my DM.

To put on another perspective, I am wondering now if actually this does not reset the choice

You can convert stored spell energy into the spells
of one of your domains. Pick one of your two domains. You can
“lose” any prepared spell (other than a domain spell) to cast any
spell of the same level or lower on that domain list. Your choice
is permanent unless an alignment change, deity change, or other
dramatic event leaves you incapable of accessing the domain.

I can think of 2 interpretations in my example for "Pick one of your two domains":

Pick Moon domain
Pick the first domain which happens to be the Moon domain, which I think is a stretch though

With the first interpretation, once I choose the Moon domain, the remaining part reads: "You can "lose" any prepared spell (other than a domain spell) to cast any spell of the same level or lower on the Moon domain list." Even if the access to the Moon domain is lost by the Substitute Domain spell, since there is no clause of domain accessibility in the ACF once the choice has been made, it should be possible possible to spontaneusly cast Moon spells.

If it were the second inteprettion, then no spontaneous Moon spells but spontaneous Protection spell.

That being said, I think the intent is to have access to the domain in the ACF, that is the only domain that can be spontaneously cast and I don't think that a cast of Substitute Domain is a dramatic event. So this would result in no spontaneous cast at all X(.

If Subsitute Domain qualifies as a dramatic event, I think then the choice can be remade and, in the example, the Protection domain or the Travel one can then be made spontaneous.

[Anthrowhale]

It's common for some bit of rules to change what a class feature does. Consider for example Craven which adds <character level> damage to each sneak attack. This is not listed as potentially possible in the description of sneak attack.

An exception need not conform to the wording of of a general rule, because the exception has precedence by default. By implication, this list:

...an alignment change, deity change, or other dramatic event... can be overriden by the spell since it is an exception which has precedence over general rules by default.

Substitute domain definitely denies you access to a domain, since it says so.
... the domain to which you have given up access.Since you lose access, the 'unless' part of the ACF redirects it to some other domain. Technically, I think you could make it either of two domains since there are no restrictions on choice, but it makes more sense to have it be the newly accessible domain.

[Nelfin]

OK, understood. In a strict reading of the rules, Moon spontaneous cast is necessarily lost and replace by another domain sponatenous cast. Technically speaking, that new domain of spontaneous cast can be either and thus, again technically, it would be a way to change the domain of the spontaneous cast ACF. Ahahah, rules are rules.

I think I'll keep it simple: never swap the spontaneous domain.

[Anthrowhale]

I think I'll keep it simple: never swap the spontaneous domain.
Definitely simpler.

[Saintheart]

@Saintheart

Just to be clear about 3 things:

the prerequisite for Intuitive attack is a base bonus attack of +1 which I don't meet as a level 1 cloistered cleric. Does that mean that I hold on the choice of a feat till level 2? Is it possible by the RAW (which stands for Rules As Written, right?) even if I think my DM would allow that.
I don't understand the benefit of casting Lore of the Gods at the start of an adventuring day. It gives a +5 bonus on a knowledge check for 10 minutes/level. Is it to obtaining a larger bonus via the Knowledge devotion on the first encounter? Even though, considering the duration of the spell, I don't think it is worth it. Is it something else?
Considering that I have Intuitive attack, shouldn't the attack bonus should be at least +5? 4 from Wisdom modifier + at least 1 from knowledge devotion. The bonus should stack here. This is just a nitpick to be sure that I have understood the rules.


The build is good from the beginning and that's great. Need just to see how to turn into a prime caster if needed later on XD

Many moons away... Nice!

Correct on 1 and 3! That's what I get for posting away from books.

On 2, the practicality of Lore of the Gods depends on how long your adventuring day is, i.e. how much actual time during the day the party gets into combat and then withdraws to rest. And you're right - at level 1 it only lasts 10 minutes, but this is one of those spells that gets much more useful or retains its use as you get more powerful, mainly because by level 6 it's a full hour, and it gives a solid boost for the purposes of Knowledge Devotion at the start of each fight. If it's not a big priority to get that bonus at the start of the fight, the priority of the spell is accordingly less.

[Nelfin]

Thanks both of you. Need to talk with my MD now to see if these stuffs are allowed. Because it is always nice to have feedback, I'll tell what was actually done.

[Quertus]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but…

DMM Persist could be used to persist stuff on your allies, too.

Quasi lycanthrope is a +1 LA template (and therefore horrible for a full caster) that, among other things, gives you DR 10/Silver, and fits really well with your chosen deity.

So, you've got options. If you want to boost the other PCs, want to have the option to boost whoever needs it, want to weaken your casting, want to become tankier? Those are options.

[Nelfin]

Hello,

you are not late at the party: I just asked two days ago and I haven't discussed yet with my DM. So thanks for helping.

From the advices, I was going for:

Spontaneous Domain (ACF from PHB2): I found it a very nice advice because it was a mechanical advantage while having a flavor feel by reinforcing the link with the Moon and Selune. Not saying that I am against anything that only has a mechanical advantage but this ACF fits eveything well XD
Knowledge devotion and (Intuitive Attack or Zen Archery) feats but, actually, a level 1 cleric does not qualify for these feats. It seems not possible to delay the choice of a feat from RAW. So I was thinking of asking for my DM to choose Initiate of Selune at level 1 but to delay its effect for a higher level (I think something in between 2 and 4) and pick Intuitive Attack or Zen Archery at level 3. Knowledge devotion can be traded for the domain if needed.


I have discussed with the bard/ranger in the mean time (yesterday XD) and he doesn't feel comfortable with frontlining (the rogue doesn't frontline, right? XD). So I may need to frontline from the get go (hum... get go? Well what I mean is from the beginning). And I also realized that we are all light armored at the moment (not counting for the potential ranger or druid). So, except if you are telling me that I can frontline with a cloistered cleric from the start, I may actually go for a classic cleric. I would drop some power and skill points for my character but I should say at this point that it is far more important to me to have players (including the DM) feeling good. It entails some highly subjective decisions though.

So basically, I am going now for a "tanky" cleric and dropping more in the caster aspect. Doing so, we will lack in this caster aspect and I just hope that it doesn't make the design of encounters too difficult for the DM (I remember from Baldur's Gate how annoying those arcane spellcasters were when you had nothing to dispell their protections!).


On what you said now.

I pointed to the DM that DMM can be broken and we decided to just get rid of this brokedness. I don't think we are going back on this decision.

At some point, I considered lycanthropes. But only natural ones because afflicted ones don't fit in the background. But I was under the impression that a +3 LA was too much for what it was. A +1 LA may work though especially now that I am going more for a frontline: you tell me XD. But what is a quasi lycanthrope and where can I find some information on them? Fitting with the background is a nice plus.

"Tanky" cleric.


Edit: I haven't read yet Oriental Adventures.
Edit2: actually, do you really need a frontline at low level?
Edit3: reread the rules for the lycanthropes. Assuming that the quasi lycanthrope follows the same rules as the lycanthropes for the levels, if I am a 2 HD quasi lycanthrope, wouldn't that mean that I begin with an effective level of 3, with a level of 4. If this is the case, no need to go further in the details: I need to discuss beforehand with my DM about (quasi) lycanthropy because it can offset the balance with the other PCs at the start of the game. Actually, just tell me where I can find information on quasi lycanthrope so that I actually have something tangible to discuss with my DM.
Edit4: I also need to discuss it my DM but DR 10/silver can already be too much for level 1 characters.

[Nelfin]

Replying to myself!

@Anthrowhale

I read the part of Oriental Adventures about the genhyxxx (well about the shapechanger). They are humanoid but not human, right?

I forgot about it in my original post (I updated that), but human is also a requirement that is not debatable. Sorry about that.


@Quertus

Found this link ://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11632.0 for the quasi lycanthrope. The link to WotC is dead though.

From a background point of view: it seems that the quasi lycanthrope needs to be aware of their quasi lycanthropy.

From a technical point of view: there is no reference to HD. So if I take a quasi lycanthrope template, it means that there is only the LA to take into account?

Except for the DR 10/silver that may be too unbalanced (in the sense that a blow that barely scratchs me would kill another PC) at level 1, I like this template. May ask my DM to homebrew something for the DR. Hum, something like increasing the DR with the level maybe. What do you think about: lvl1 DR 3; lvl2 DR6; lvl3 DR10?

Some questions though:

why is the original poster says that it is basically free after level 9?
Message #4: which nice perks? Ending polymorph whenever it wants?
Message #8: ability to fly? Really? Without wings?



Also found something about buying off: what is this? Found it: Unearthed Arcana, p. 18

[Anthrowhale]

I read the part of Oriental Adventures about the genhyxxx (well about the shapechanger). They are humanoid but not human, right?
Right.

Buyoff is optional rules here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

[Quertus]

Yes, with DR 10/silver, you will be really hard to hurt at low level. Thus, making you tanky. As a front-liner should be.

But it'll put you a level behind, on HP, saves, skills, and spell casting.

And it won't protect you from non-physical damage - even the lowly torch can hurt you just fine.

So, if the party *needs* you to be front line… and you want to remain a Cloistered Cleric… then quasi lycanthrope is very appropriately thematic.

[Darg]

If you want a little more versatility, the Domain Spontaneity feat in Complete Divine allows you to give up a prepared spell and a turning attempt to cast any domain spell of domains you have access to. With your high charisma you get quite the number of spell casts this way. While not as many casts as the spontaneous domain casting ACF (and can be combined effectively with cloistered cleric), this could allow you to keep the spontaneous healing if you think that could be important and also give you something to do with your turning attempts when there isn't any undead.

[Nelfin]

I have mostly decided what to do with my cleric although some minor tweaks here and there are still possible. It is more melee centric now.

Character creation and some planning:

Race: human with quasilycanthrope template (technically is in the process of awakening the quasilycanthropic powers)
Abilities: Str 13; Dex 10; Con 12; Cha 15; Int 18; Wis 17
Class: Cloistered Cleric (Moon and Travel domains) with Spontaneous Domain Casting (Moon)
Skills (44 points): Profession (anything in the countryside but likely Farmer) 4; Knowledge (Religion) 4; Diplomacy 4; Perform (Oratory) 2; Knowledge (Arcana) 4; Concentration 4; Spellcraft 4; 1 in all other Knwoledge skills of PHB 8 points; Survival 4; Bluff 2; Intimidate 2; Sense Motive 2
Feats: Able learner and Travel Devotion

Planning: as soon as possible, trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion and taking Intuitive Attack, delaying Initiate of Selune till level 6.

A summary of the background:

Comes from a lycanthropic lineage but is unaware of the lineage until told by the father (only one of the parents knows). Milan (the father) didn't tell about lineage, for social and psychological reasons, when Kundéra (my character) was young. The knowledge of the lineage is usually told at maturity of the children in the family.
Lycanthropic lineage is a rare form of lycanthropy with a fragile/defenseless animal
Had an event at 14 old that decided Milan to talk about the lineage
Decides to enter a cleric path. After 6 years of intensive studies, decides it is time for some actions

The event: returning at home alone in the evening, Kundéra is being cornered, chased and ran like crazy untill couldn't hold on anymore. Felt on the ground and looking at the moon. Actually, nothing really happened and the pursuers never appeared in what I wrote for the background. The DM can thus do whatever he wants with this event. Ranging from small things such as meeting someone and being told by that person "Yeah, I know you" to huge hidden organization stuff, or even me imagining everything that (actually never) happened. He can also integrate the fact that it is a rare form of lycanthropy so that Silverstars could have monitored his family for some protection purposes (untill Kundéra chose to go adventuring).

Other stuff I wrote are flavor, such as some anecdots on childhood, how it was so difficlut during these 6 years of cleric learning or about trying to convince someone about how Selûne is such a great deity...

Hum... There is a hole in the writting: nothing about when Kundéra learned about the lineage...

By the way, if you think there is something not plausible in the background, let me know.

Technicalities:

For the lineage, I was thinking about a koala. Found some stats here (d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/koala/) but any idea is wellcome
DM says that quasilycanthopy will be online only at level 2 of the other players for balance purposes. That's why there is this awakening quasilycanthropic powers stuff (can be similar to embracing lycanthropy for lycanthropes). Need now to survive at least the first level XD, so going for longspear at first
Edit: forgot to precise that quasilycanthropy has been homebrewed to scale with level;
DM ruling: no Divine Metamagic, no swaping spontaneous domain, not decided yet but very likely no LA buyoff (seems too powerful) Edit: effectively: no LA buyoff
Told the DM about what I planned to do but he has difficulty to keep up with my pace. Nothing set here but it is only planning: it is at least OK for the creation.


Question: do lycanthropes and/or quasilycanthropes take damage from barely touching silver (for example, using a fork in silver)? I would assume that they are at least uncomfortable, no?


Once again, thanks for the advices!

[Anthrowhale]

At level 1, if you can convince your party to worship Selune, you can use 'Faith Healing' for 9 hit points. That's enough to make in-combat healing worthwhile----you won't see that again until Heal comes online. Between Faith Healing and a Longspear, you can do good work from the second line.

[Nelfin]

Unfortunately not going to happen for the bard/ranger. Maybe the rogue.

Edit: testing edit notification....

[Quertus]

"not until second" is a surprisingly reasonable compromise.

"Scale with level"? Is it costing you a level, *and* not giving you full benefits? That… might be a bit weak. Surviving level 2 with level 1 HP, and limited quasi lycanthrope benefits? Sounds rough. I guess… see how level 1 goes?

EDIT: "edit notification"? Did it comment on this?

[Nelfin]

A flat DR 10/silver seems too powerfull at ECL 2 for the DM. We have time to set the actual numbers but we already discussed this and an increasing DR with the character level is OK for both of us. At the moment, something like DR (4+character level)/silver seems balanced. At ECL 2, it would mean DR 5/silver which is what an afflicted lycanthrope has.

The DM is aware of this balancing issue and he is proposing the DR could go past 10, but increasing at a slowlier pace. I am sceptical that it is worth the trade but oh well let's see how it goes. I am happy with the character and the DM is comfortable with it: it is good enough for me!

PS: never mind the edit stuff. Was a test for myself.

[AceDragonKing]

Hey saw your question and i’m short on time so i’m not gonna read everyone’s replies so sorry i’m advance if someone of this is redundant.

1) there is a fun variant of cleric that gets smite instead of turn undead which is more fun and versatile cause your get to use it a lot more often cause you can use it on anything rather than just on undead (ps it also works on undead)
this also opens up smite feats to you so you’ll be trading whatever feats you’d normally grab for these both weakening you and making you able to do melee and ranger

2) domain feats are hella fun cause no prerequisites, they power up as you lvl up and some are even party buffs like protection devotion

3) luck feats are always fun

[Nelfin]

It is really too late now XD.