Concentration Doesn't Seem to Scale with Level, and That's Weird

[aadder]

Hello everyone,

So recently i've been playing with a bunch of builds, and I find that Concentration is WAY easier to maintain at low levels, and that's just odd to me. The context here being that I am building characters that have their core mechanics around channeling powerful spells like Call Lightning or Spirit Guardians, and I keep finding that it seems like once I get up to higher levels, that's not nearly as viable. I find I get knocked out of channeling with regularity once I hit high enough level, and at that point, why channel?

Here's my thoughts:

At low level, you can use Variant Human or Custom Lineage to give pretty much any given character 14 CON with The Resilient feat, starting you with a +4 to your concentration saving throws. If you're any number of class builds, you can grab AC 18 easy through either plate armor, or medium + shield + 14/15 DEX. If you are one of several classes, you can grab Mirror Image. Collectively, you can through many avenues, by level 5, build a character that can sit in the back with AC 18 with +5 to concentration saving throws, with Mirror Image as a save against even GETTING hit. The only thing threatening you against a DC greater than 10 is a hit over 21 damage.

Now, fast forward to level 16, and I feel like the only additional protection i might pick up is Advantage on a concentration throw through War Caster or Warlock. Enemies hit WAY harder, so the additional +2 and re-roll don't seem to be that much additional protection. I feel like concentration spells just don't last as long at that point, and that really takes the wind out of my sails for builds that rely on them like a Warlock maintaining Hex or what-have-you.

Am I just bad at strategizing for this?

[Amnestic]

Spellcasters have more ways to avoid being hit and a lot more spell slots at high level. Losing concentration when you've got 2 spell slots is pretty devastating. Losing it when you've got 22 less so. It's still not great, mind you, but it's noticeably different.

[KillingTime]

This is a subset of the problem that you get worse at everything you're not proficient in as you level up.
At least Resilient(con) actually gives you proficiency.

[MoiMagnus]

My opinion is that maintaining concentration is intended to be hard, and that using VHuman or Custom Lineage to take Resillient at low level make it significantly easier than what was intended balance-wise.

But there is another point you missed: the easiest way to maintain concentration is to not get hit at all. And you get more and more tools to achieve that: magical objects like Cloak of Displacement or any object that allows you to fly out of melee range, if there are other spellcasters in the team they can also concentrate defensive spells for the whole group, etc.
Sure it's not possible in all battles to avoid being hit, but there are a good number of battles where you can see in advance if you're at risk of taking a lot of damage, hence choose to rely or not on concentration spells for this specific battle.

But yeah, it is more and more difficult for any character who intend to take massive damages in fights to concentrate for spells, to the point that I usually consider the Haste spell counterproductive to cast.

Notable exception: using class features. I've played an artificer, and using the reaction for a +5 at a concentration check works quite well. Bardic inspiration might also help. And there is one Druid subclass that can help if I remember correctly. Additionally, a paladin in the team increase your concentration checks too, making the Paladin the best friend of any battle-mage kind of build.

[Zhorn]

Could also be more to do with the types of games you are running in.
If you are regularly being hit for greater than 21 damage, I'm assuming you are also playing higher stakes encounters with more regular usages of burst damage?
Outside of the special nova abilities and high level spells of high CR creatures (limited use, on recharge, etc), the average damage of the standard attacks of many high CR creatures is still relatively conservative. Even your ancient dragons bites and claws are on the lower end of the 20's.

For scaling up concentration, the aforementioned warcaster and resilient CON are fairly decent boosts, and investing in a solid CON score can go a long way to holding concentration in base combat. Then for spells with high damage, that's what counterspell is for.

[EggKookoo]

Concentration was put into the game at least partly to counter the "quadradic wizards" problem, so naturally it wouldn't scale up with the caster.

[rant on]

Personally I think they whiffed a bit with concentration. It seems to be meant to address two separate things.

Spells that are mutually-exclusive with other spells.
...and...
Spells that are "fragile" and can be disrupted when the caster is hurt.

In the 5e spirit of simplicity, they combined these into a single mechanic, but I think this is one case where the depth would have been worth the complexity of two separate things.

[rant off]

[MaxWilson]

If you are one of several classes, you can grab Mirror Image. Collectively, you can through many avenues, by level 5, build a character that can sit in the back with AC 18 with +5 to concentration saving throws, with Mirror Image as a save against even GETTING hit. The only thing threatening you against a DC greater than 10 is a hit over 21 damage.

...

Am I just bad at strategizing for this?

It sounds like you might be making a common mistake: rolling Mirror Image after a hit instead of before an attack. If an enemy attacks, and it turns out that they attack an enemy instead of you, and then they roll a 6+4=10, that still uses up an imagine as long as your Dex is 10, even if your personal AC is 18 due to chain mail + Shield. This tends to make spending a round casting Mirror Image not worth it at low level except in dire emergencies.

So, it could just be that you're accidentally overpowering a specific low-level spell, and concentration should be hard to maintain at low level AND at high level.

Note BTW that it's pretty easy to get something approaching auto-success on DC 10 concentration saves if you invest in the right feats, and that's great, but you still lose concentration if you are incapacitated through other means such as failing a Wisdom or Concentration save against certain monster attacks or spells (like Tasha's Hideous Laughter), casting a spell that takes longer than one action, or falling to zero HP.

[Willie the Duck]

At low level, you can use Variant Human or Custom Lineage to give pretty much any given character 14 CON with The Resilient feat, starting you with a +4 to your concentration saving throws. If you're any number of class builds, you can grab AC 18 easy through either plate armor, or medium + shield + 14/15 DEX. If you are one of several classes, you can grab Mirror Image. Collectively, you can through many avenues, by level 5, build a character that can sit in the back with AC 18 with +5 to concentration saving throws, with Mirror Image as a save against even GETTING hit. The only thing threatening you against a DC greater than 10 is a hit over 21 damage.
I first have to say that a caster with resilient:con and heavy armor/medium armor+14 Dex is a choice. Feats are optional, multiclassing is optional, yes both are really common but even then you are selecting all of this against the opportunity cost of any other way to build your character. It's a build. Now, if a build has a differing effect at one level versus another, that's interesting but not unprecedented. In fact, I'd say it is almost expected. Two-weapon fighting builds and Heavy Armor Master usage being good examples.

[Gtdead]

No defense scales with level (unless we count magic items as level depended). For example a Paladin can start with 19 AC and reach 21 by the end of his career. The only leeway is shield of faith (which is a poor choice for concentration past a certain point) and multiclassing into a caster with access to shield.

There are some features that are level locked but they aren't part of a progression, like for example Monk's Diamond Soul and Paladin's Aura of Protection. As a player you have the choice to stack these things and create durable characters, or create parties with defensive synergies and defensive layers. The vast majority of defensive options are available early (as early as level 1 thanks to Vhuman) but they are flat boni and it's part of the Bounded Accuracy logic that this edition uses.

As for holding concentration, past a certain point you need a holistic approach. Anyone can get 16 CON + Proficiency so this is the bare minimum. From there on, the options are to increase CON (usually not worth it) and bring a Paladin for Aura (generally worth it) which will propel your saves past the soft cap of DC 10 (or even 15 for spells like Sleet Storm), but that's nothing compared to a dragon's breath. So your options past that point are to build for DEX saves, evasion, resistances, immunities, Aura of Warding, Absorb Elements, flat damage decreases (like Bladesinger's Song of Defense). Attacks tend to be a bit easier to handle cause there aren't many enemies that hit so hard on a single attack. Usually just stacking CON saves will get you through the worst. However stacking mitigation (mostly AC) is a smart thing to do due to the exponential effect and most casters have tools like Shield, features and spells that can boost it to very respectable levels.

[strangebloke]

If you have resilient:Con, your ability to make concentration saves absolutely scales with level via proficiency. I don't really see the problem here.

[loki_ragnarock]

It scales for Sorcerers.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is a subset of the problem that you get worse at everything you're not proficient in as you level up. At least Resilient(con) actually gives you proficiency. If the game permits feats. (We have a warlock who took the Tasha's concentration invocation for his 'lock, he's glad he did).

My opinion is that maintaining concentration is intended to be hard, and that using VHuman or Custom Lineage to take Resilient at low level make it significantly easier than what was intended balance-wise. Except that Sorcerers and Eldritch knights are proficient in Con saves. :smallbiggrin:


But there is another point you missed: the easiest way to maintain concentration is to not get hit at all. That's the key take away, I think.

Bardic inspiration might also help. Teamwork is a thing. :smallsmile:

In the 5e spirit of simplicity, they combined these into a single mechanic, but I think this is one case where the depth would have been worth the complexity of two separate things.
I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. It makes being a caster more difficult, and that seems to be a bit of a balancing factor in a featless game that all of a sudden makes the sorcerer a fine choice due to the fact that ...

It scales for Sorcerers. :)
Maybe that's why the sorc gets that big benefit if we assume that featless is the base game. :smallsmile:

[EggKookoo]

I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. It makes being a caster more difficult, and that seems to be a bit of a balancing factor in a featless game that all of a sudden makes the sorcerer a fine choice due to the fact that ...

What I'm imagining is two separate limiters. For lack of better terms...

Concentration: Works like RAW concentration except there's no absolute limit to the number of spells you can concentrate on at once. If you lose concentration, you drop all such spells. Maybe a limit based on your spellcasting modifier, if absolutely necessary.

Focus: Works like the other half of RAW concentration in that you can only have one "focus" spell active at a time, but damage won't make you drop it.

Then spells would have one or both flags.

My problem with RAW concentration is that it's not terribly interesting. My players tend to look at the "C" flag as "well, guess I won't be preparing that one..."

[KorvinStarmast]

My problem with RAW concentration is that it's not terribly interesting. My players tend to look at the "C" flag as "well, guess I won't be preparing that one..." ??
Not terribly interesting? It's drives player choice and has an opportunity cost. Making decisions and choices is a part of game play. "Risks, benefits, rewards ..." it's a part of what the game is about.

As a support caster, quite a few of my spells are concentration ones. One of my gripes about druid is that too many of them are concentration ones, barkskin being an egregious offender here. :smallfurious:

If your players don't like concentration spells, they are throwing away some great party buffs, and some great debuffs (slow being a personal favorite). Their loss.

[Amnestic]

My players tend to look at the "C" flag as "well, guess I won't be preparing that one..."

More fool your players then tbh. There's plenty of concentration spells worth having alongside each other, even if you can't keep them all active at once.

[EggKookoo]

??
Not terribly interesting? It's drives player choice and has an opportunity cost. Making decisions and choices is a part of game play. "Risks, benefits, rewards ..." it's a part of what the game is about.

Don't get me wrong. I get why concentration exists and I approve. RAW concentration is the beginning of a good solution. It needs a refinement pass.

I don't think the best answer to "some spells are too powerful" is to put a hard limit on casting. I'd rather see a tradeoff. Like, concentrating on two spells provides a penalty, rather than a simple "nope you can't do that" like you're an AD&D wizard trying to swing a sword.


As a support caster, quite a few of my spells are concentration ones. One of my gripes about druid is that too many of them are concentration ones, barkskin being an egregious offender here. :smallfurious:

Agreed. In fact it was barkskin that kicked off our concentration-cynicism. We're playtesting a homebrewed version that isn't concentration and provides temp HP instead of an AC bonus. In this case our beef with barkskin isn't the "more than one" limit but the "check when taking damage" factor.


If your players don't like concentration spells, they are throwing away some great party buffs, and some great debuffs (slow being a personal favorite). Their loss.


More fool your players then tbh. There's plenty of concentration spells worth having alongside each other, even if you can't keep them all active at once.

Perhaps. They're just not interested in playing that particular minigame, any more than we worry overmuch about encumbrance, or use exhaustion a lot. They have their choices of spells and they have more fun using the ones they choose. This isn't to say they never use concentration spells, but they tend to minimize them in their prepped lists (often down to just one if they can).

[SharkForce]

I could agree that concentration is in some cases overused. there are spells that need it (like, say... hypnotic pattern, or web) to be balanced, and there are spells where I look at them and think "well, that's worth the spell slot, but in the situation where I might want that I'm definitely going to be concentrating on one of several other spells already".

I don't think the scaling on con saves is a problem. so far as I am concerned, concentration scales in the sense that you can concentrate on higher level spells, and your spell saving throw DC is improving as you level; a level 17 wizard may not have a vastly superior con save than a level 5 wizard with similar feats (although the level 17 wizard can probably afford the feats more easily)... but the level 17 wizard *does* get to force DC 19 on a wished symbol of insanity (requiring an int save) instead of a DC 15 web, and can concentrate on shapechange or true polymorph instead of hypnotic pattern (not that hypnotic pattern is in any way bad, it just isn't anywhere near as good as true polymorph or shapechange).

furthermore, as you gain levels your access to non-concentration spells improves. mass suggestion vs suggestion, forcecage vs wall of force, antipathy/sympathy, mind blank, major image in a level 5 slot, etherealness, mirage arcane, simulacrum, programmed illusion... certainly not all your spells are concentration-free, but there are some really great options.

that said, if someone were to suggest that a few more specific spells could stand to not cost concentration, I wouldn't disagree that some should be...

[Zuras]

It’s not that Concentration doesn’t scale, it’s just that high level play can’t avoid some aspect of missile tag.

If you’re facing a bunch of CR 5 threats in a Tier 3 combat, the resources you put into maintaining concentration still work. If you’re in an environment where Power Word Stun and Meteor Swarm are getting used against you, I wouldn’t make any plans that require maintaining concentration.

As far as the mechanic itself, there are a bunch of spells that could easily have longer non-concentration durations when up-cast. Just look at the template for Bestow Curse and try that for some of the low level buff and debuff spells that you don’t see used in higher level play.

[MaxWilson]

No defense scales with level (unless we count magic items as level depended). For example a Paladin can start with 19 AC and reach 21 by the end of his career. The only leeway is shield of faith (which is a poor choice for concentration past a certain point) and multiclassing into a caster with access to shield.

Well... there is that War Wizard thread ongoing right now.

A Fighter 1/War Wizard X starts off as a Fighter 1 with AC 19 (chain mail, shield, Defense style), goes to effective AC 19+2 = 21 at level 3 (Fighter 1/War Wizard 2, due to Arcane Deflection, not even counting Shield), eventually gets plate for AC 21+2 = 23, then becomes a Fighter 1/War Wizard 10 with effective AC 25 when using Arcane Deflection (23 + Arcane Deflection), and finishes with Spell Mastery for Shield spam at AC 23 + 5 = 28. If the spell he's concentrating on happens to be Haste then he's AC 25 + 5 = 30.

That's a fair amount of scaling compared to his original AC 19. And that's not even considering potential magic items, which might raise AC by another +1-3 or so.

Separate from the War Wizard thread, there's also Defensive Duelist to consider, which scales with proficiency. Plus any proficient saving throw.

[Gtdead]

Well... there is that War Wizard thread ongoing right now.

A Fighter 1/War Wizard X starts off as a Fighter 1 with AC 19 (chain mail, shield, Defense style), goes to effective AC 19+2 = 21 at level 3 (Fighter 1/War Wizard 2, due to Arcane Deflection, not even counting Shield), eventually gets plate for AC 21+2 = 23, then becomes a Fighter 1/War Wizard 10 with effective AC 25 when using Arcane Deflection (23 + Arcane Deflection), and finishes with Spell Mastery for Shield spam at AC 23 + 5 = 28. If the spell he's concentrating on happens to be Haste then he's AC 25 + 5 = 30.

That's a fair amount of scaling compared to his original AC 19. And that's not even considering potential magic items, which might raise AC by another +1-3 or so.

Separate from the War Wizard thread, there's also Defensive Duelist to consider, which scales with proficiency. Plus any proficient saving throw.

Same can be said for barbarians too, which start at a possible 18 (unarmed+shield) and can follow a mosty linear progression up to 24 AC if they wish to, or the bladesinger who starts at 16 and can follow a similar progression up to 23 (mage armor+bladesong+dex) plus possible haste (25) and spell mastery shield for 30. However these are mostly class/build specific.

[Reach Weapon]

Am I just bad at strategizing for this?

At low level, you can use Variant Human or Custom Lineage to give pretty much any given character 14 CON with The Resilient feat, starting you with a +4 to your concentration saving throws. If you're any number of class builds, you can grab AC 18 easy through either plate armor, or medium + shield + 14/15 DEX. If you are one of several classes, you can grab Mirror Image. Collectively, you can through many avenues, by level 5, build a character that can sit in the back with AC 18 with +5 to concentration saving throws, with Mirror Image as a save against even GETTING hit. The only thing threatening you against a DC greater than 10 is a hit over 21 damage.

Now, fast forward to level 16, and I feel like the only additional protection i might pick up is Advantage on a concentration throw through War Caster or Warlock. Enemies hit WAY harder, so the additional +2 and re-roll don't seem to be that much additional protection. I feel like concentration spells just don't last as long at that point, and that really takes the wind out of my sails for builds that rely on them like a Warlock maintaining Hex or what-have-you.
I do think it's worth pointing out that that your build plans specify grabbing Resilient Con at first level as well as other strategies for maximizing Concentration at early levels. Outside of how good or scalable Concentration should be, focusing a large percentage of resources on most anything early, and then finding less levers to engage and a proportionate reduction in effectiveness as that percentage shifts seems somewhat natural.

[MaxWilson]

Same can be said for barbarians too, which start at a possible 18 (unarmed+shield) and can follow a mosty linear progression up to 24 AC if they wish to, or the bladesinger who starts at 16 and can follow a similar progression up to 23 (mage armor+bladesong+dex) plus possible haste (25) and spell mastery shield for 30. However these are mostly class/build specific.

Yeah, I guess that's tangential to your main point. Sorry, and hopefully we didn't confuse the OP too much with my topic drift.

[Segev]

It seems like module writers often forget about concentration, too. A druid boss in one of them is supposed to have Barkskin active while opening with Entangle. My solution was to give him 3 potions of Barkskin and drink one. This gave the party a little extra loot and let him have the effect without concentration.

[KorvinStarmast]

It’s not that Concentration doesn’t scale, it’s just that high level play can’t avoid some aspect of missile tag.

If you’re facing a bunch of CR 5 threats in a Tier 3 combat, the resources you put into maintaining concentration still work. If you’re in an environment where Power Word Stun and Meteor Swarm are getting used against you, I wouldn’t make any plans that require maintaining concentration. Or the breath of an adult of ancient dragon. :smallbiggrin:

It seems like module writers often forget about concentration, too. A druid boss in one of them is supposed to have Barkskin active while opening with Entangle. My solution was to give him 3 potions of Barkskin and drink one. This gave the party a little extra loot and let him have the effect without concentration. I think I know which one that is. :smallwink: Nice tweak, I tip my cap.

[MaxWilson]

If you’re facing a bunch of CR 5 threats in a Tier 3 combat, the resources you put into maintaining concentration still work. If you’re in an environment where Power Word Stun and Meteor Swarm are getting used against you, I wouldn’t make any plans that require maintaining concentration.

Er, the low-CR 5 threats might actually be worse. A dragon's melee attacks will generally be in the normal DC 10 concentration territory you're used to; it's only the breath weapon that can exceed that, once every few rounds. By contrast, if a level 14 party is fighting a Hard encounter with a bunch of low-CR monsters, a ~20,000 adjusted XP budget buys an awful lot of monsters.

To use one of my favorite monsters, 3 Neogi Masters and 3 Star Spawn is Hard for a 14th level party (about 17K adjusted XP), and in addition to the melee threat, buys 3 rounds of Enslavement/Hold Person V for the PCs. DC 14 may not sound like a lot on paper, but (1) it's higher than the DC on the concentration save a dragon is likely to force, and (2) even a wizard with +6ish to Wisdom saves still has a 35% chance to fail it (obviously a Cleric or Druid will do better and an Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster or Ranger without Wis proficiency will do worse). Each Neogi can cause 7 saves over the first three rounds (Hold Person x2 = 6, plus Enslave) if it lives, and if 35% of those 21 saves fail, we're looking at about 7 failures amongst the 4 PCs. If you kill off half the Neogis pretty quickly and do some Counterspellling, you're still probably looking some at least 1-2 failures, and some of those failures involve charm which makes PCs not only lose concentration but actively stab each other in the back.

In other words, don't count on keeping your concentration in the low-CR fights either. They can be even worse.

[EggKookoo]

It seems like module writers often forget about concentration, too. A druid boss in one of them is supposed to have Barkskin active while opening with Entangle. My solution was to give him 3 potions of Barkskin and drink one. This gave the party a little extra loot and let him have the effect without concentration.

Of course monsters/NPCs aren't bound by the same limitations as PCs, and vice-versa.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's a bit of a weird mechanic, probably made worse by extremes in a game designed to avoid them. The best example I can think of was our recent Shepherd Druid. He built entirely around maintaining concentration. So, Halfling (don't worry about 1s) then Resilient Con at 4th and Warcaster at 8th. I can't remember what he took at 12th, but he was considering Lucky. The end result was that 20 hp of damage or less was basically automatic. This was one of a number of things that made the party able to contend with foes far beyond what they should have based on level, so as the DM I was regularly chucking out pretty extreme challenges to keep things interesting. So, occasionally the Druid would take 40 or so hp of damage and the result was almost an auto fail, in contrast to his usual auto succeed.
Edit: I think the root of the issue is that concentration as written makes no distinction between 1 point of damage or 20, so in fact it does get better for many characters through about the end of Tier 2, then as the big damage starts coming gets significantly worse.

[Boci]

Of course monsters/NPCs aren't bound by the same limitations as PCs, and vice-versa.

For character creation sure, but unless they have a special ability, concentration spells are still concentration for NPCs. The difference is they can have a rule that say they get to ignore / mitigate it, which players don't get (yet).

[loki_ragnarock]

I think I know which one that is. :smallwink: Nice tweak, I tip my cap.

Was it in Tales From the Yawning Portal or did they do it again, elsewhere?

It seemed forgivable in a conversion. Not sure I'd feel that way in the fresh adventures.

[MaxWilson]

Was it in Tales From the Yawning Portal or did they do it again, elsewhere?

It seemed forgivable in a conversion. Not sure I'd feel that way in the fresh adventures.

I think it's Sunless Citadel in Yawning Portal, but I haven't run it so I might be misremembering.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it's Sunless Citadel in Yawning Portal, but I haven't run it so I might be misremembering.
Give that man a cigar. :smallsmile:

[MaxWilson]

Give that man a cigar. :smallsmile:

As long as it's a bubble gum cigar. :)

[Pex]

Of course monsters/NPCs aren't bound by the same limitations as PCs, and vice-versa.

True, but there are lines you don't cross. Allowing an NPC to concentrate on more than one spell is that line. That is outright cheating. I can give the module writers the benefit of the doubt it was an honest mistake, but I would condemn any module writer or monster manual creator who gives that ability on purpose. Thankfully that has never happened. The Beholder is close, if you consider paralyzing, telekinesis, and some charms would normally be Concentration effects PCs used. It gets off on a technicality those aren't spells.

Monsters aren't built like PCs, but there are still rules to follow. Maybe, an extreme maybe, I could accept a double concentration for a monster that is supposed to be an Epic Big Boss Campaign or Major Adventure Arc Finale fight, but not any monster or NPC Villain.

[Segev]

True, but there are lines you don't cross. Allowing an NPC to concentrate on more than one spell is that line. That is outright cheating. I can give the module writers the benefit of the doubt it was an honest mistake, but I would condemn any module writer or monster manual creator who gives that ability on purpose. Thankfully that has never happened. The Beholder is close, if you consider paralyzing, telekinesis, and some charms would normally be Concentration effects PCs used. It gets off on a technicality those aren't spells.

Monsters aren't built like PCs, but there are still rules to follow. Maybe, an extreme maybe, I could accept a double concentration for a monster that is supposed to be an Epic Big Boss Campaign or Major Adventure Arc Finale fight, but not any monster or NPC Villain.

If you want a monster to concentrate on more than one thing, give it more than one mind. A two-headed oni-mage with a special ability to concentrate on two different spells and potentially with two complete turns would be a high-level monster, but would also be essentially two monsters with a shared hp pool and location.

You could make an advanced hydra with multi-concentration, perhaps. Maybe as a special upgraded dragon-hydra hybrid.

[Waazraath]

I think I know which one that is. :smallwink: Nice tweak, I tip my cap.

Agreed, +1... wish I would have thought about it, would have made the boss fight for my players a bit more interesting (cause as it was it was a bit weak, also because of this particular issue)

[aadder]

It's a bit of a weird mechanic, probably made worse by extremes in a game designed to avoid them. The best example I can think of was our recent Shepherd Druid. He built entirely around maintaining concentration. So, Halfling (don't worry about 1s) then Resilient Con at 4th and Warcaster at 8th. I can't remember what he took at 12th, but he was considering Lucky. The end result was that 20 hp of damage or less was basically automatic. This was one of a number of things that made the party able to contend with foes far beyond what they should have based on level, so as the DM I was regularly chucking out pretty extreme challenges to keep things interesting. So, occasionally the Druid would take 40 or so hp of damage and the result was almost an auto fail, in contrast to his usual auto succeed.
Edit: I think the root of the issue is that concentration as written makes no distinction between 1 point of damage or 20, so in fact it does get better for many characters through about the end of Tier 2, then as the big damage starts coming gets significantly worse.

pretty much, yeah.

To be specific I'm looking at a Trickery Cleric and Warlocks, and I honestly cant' see playing either of them past level 15 or so.

It feels like at that point you'd just lose concentration constantly. In the case of a Warlock, you're gonna chew through your spell slots incredibly fast, and in the case of the cleric, you're gonna get basically one turn of your Channel Divinity per fight.

Woo.

So good.

[Valmark]

pretty much, yeah.

To be specific I'm looking at a Trickery Cleric and Warlocks, and I honestly cant' see playing either of them past level 15 or so.

It feels like at that point you'd just lose concentration constantly. In the case of a Warlock, you're gonna chew through your spell slots incredibly fast, and in the case of the cleric, you're gonna get basically one turn of your Channel Divinity per fight.

Woo.

So good.

Mmm... Unless you want their high level features (which doesn't seem like you do) you could multiclass with varying amount of Abjuration Wizard. That or War Wizard- the first has the Arcane Ward that eats some damage, lowering those Concentration checks, while the latter has that +4 to a save as a reaction.

Since you aren't planning on casting spells one after the other you can deal with the limitation on cantrips war wizard gives- in that case it'd act as a dip, since the subclass is pretty mediocre otherwise.

The abjurer though would reward being the main class of the build, since the Arcane Ward's hp scales with wizard levels.

Straight cleric do have pretty good capstones though.

EDIT: If I'm not wrong Bladesinger Wizard and Clockwork Sorcerer also have ways to reduce damage further.

[EggKookoo]

If you want a monster to concentrate on more than one thing, give it more than one mind. A two-headed oni-mage with a special ability to concentrate on two different spells and potentially with two complete turns would be a high-level monster, but would also be essentially two monsters with a shared hp pool and location.

You could make an advanced hydra with multi-concentration, perhaps. Maybe as a special upgraded dragon-hydra hybrid.

I don't think multi-concentration is any more taboo than any number of other things a monster can do that a PC can't. Of course it should be called out on the monster's stat block, if only so the DM knows about it. But it's no different otherwise than legendary actions or a bunch of other things. At the same time, if a DM decided to give a particular ability to concentrate on two spells, or cast a non-concentration version of a spell, that's fine. I agree, though, that the example we're talking about just sounds like an oversight.

PC/NPC disparity goes beyond creation. For example, a monster with Multiattack can't use one of its attacks to shove an opponent (or use any other "replace an attack" feature). It needs to replace the entire Multiattack action with a single shove action. Whereas a PC with Extra Attack can do that. Another example is Natural Armor, which gives the creature an arbitrary bonus to its AC just because the designer wanted it. Also, I don't think a PC can be an innate spellcaster the way many NPCs are.

[Tanarii]

True, but there are lines you don't cross. Allowing an NPC to concentrate on more than one spell is that line. That is outright cheating.
Generally it's accepted that 5e doesn't have PC / NPC "equality" when it comes to abilities, including by players. But I agree that anyone that's played a caster and knows which ones are concentration by heart will probably instinctively object that it's not possible the moment a DM does this ... because clearly they've made a mistake!. And probably be at least mildly irritated if the DM tells them it's a special ability of an otherwise player race NPC.

Segev's idea of a special multi-headed creature that can concentrate on two spells at once might work well as a final boss type. Or even a adventure specific recurring minion support caster, if it's established earlier in the adventure that non-minion casters of the same race can do two things at once due to having two or more heads, especially if they're fixed effects and a relatively benign combination. I mean, I doubt many players object to Marilith getting 6 sword attacks.

[KorvinStarmast]

Generally it's accepted that 5e doesn't have PC / NPC "equality" when it comes to abilities, including by players. But I agree that anyone that's played a caster and knows which ones are concentration by heart will probably instinctively object that it's not possible the moment a DM does this ... because clearly they've made a mistake!. And probably be at least mildly irritated if the DM tells them it's a special ability of an otherwise player race NPC.

Segev's idea of a special multi-headed creature that can concentrate on two spells at once might work well as a final boss type. Or even a adventure specific recurring minion support caster, if it's established earlier in the adventure that non-minion casters of the same race can do two things at once due to having two or more heads, especially if they're fixed effects and a relatively benign combination. I mean, I doubt many players object to Marilith getting 6 sword attacks. Lair effects and legendary actions take care of the tougher monsters getting new tools; breaking the concentration rules, unless one uses something like glyph of warding mechanics, strikes me as a bad precedent to set.

[Boci]

Lair effects and legendary actions take care of the tougher monsters getting new tools; breaking the concentration rules, unless one uses something like glyph of warding mechanics, strikes me as a bad precedent to set.

I think it would be acceptable to have a NPC with "Blessing of the Oak: The Archdruid of Nasaroi has a permanent barkskin effect (already included in his prodile), they need not maintain concentration on this. If dispelled, it returns at dawn the next day. Without this blessing, their AC drops to 12".

[JNAProductions]

True, but there are lines you don't cross. Allowing an NPC to concentrate on more than one spell is that line. That is outright cheating. I can give the module writers the benefit of the doubt it was an honest mistake, but I would condemn any module writer or monster manual creator who gives that ability on purpose. Thankfully that has never happened. The Beholder is close, if you consider paralyzing, telekinesis, and some charms would normally be Concentration effects PCs used. It gets off on a technicality those aren't spells.

Monsters aren't built like PCs, but there are still rules to follow. Maybe, an extreme maybe, I could accept a double concentration for a monster that is supposed to be an Epic Big Boss Campaign or Major Adventure Arc Finale fight, but not any monster or NPC Villain.

I disagree with that, Pex. A monster who can hold concentration on multiple spells at once is anywhere from perfectly fine (Barkskin and Create Bonfire, if those are their only spells, is not a big deal) to bonkers and terrible (Shapechange and Invulnerability).

I'll echo Segev, though, with saying that a multi-minded monster is a good way to have an explanation for it.

[Boci]

I disagree with that, Pex. A monster who can hold concentration on multiple spells at once is anywhere from perfectly fine (Barkskin and Create Bonfire, if those are their only spells, is not a big deal) to bonkers and terrible (Shapechange and Invulnerability).

I'll echo Segev, though, with saying that a multi-minded monster is a good way to have an explanation for it.

But the monster that can concentrate on two spells at once will only have the spells given in its state block, which may not include shapechange and invulnerability.

[JNAProductions]

But the monster that can concentrate on two spells at once will only have the spells given in its state block, which may not include shapechange and invulnerability.

Which is the point I was making.

If you give them the two spells in the first parentheses, it's something the players might not notice because of how low-impact it is.
If you give them the two spells in the second set, it's going to make them royally peeved, because those are player abilities that they can never combine, but when combined, are absolutely ridiculous.

[Boci]

Which is the point I was making.

If you give them the two spells in the first parentheses, it's something the players might not notice because of how low-impact it is.
If you give them the two spells in the second set, it's going to make them royally peeved, because those are player abilities that they can never combine, but when combined, are absolutely ridiculous.

I don't feel those are the only two options, there a middle ground of two spells that combo together well to make the boss fight challenging without being broken. Off the top of my head: blur and sickening radiance. Impactful? Yes. Absolutely ridiculous? Probably not.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think it would be acceptable to have a NPC with "Blessing of the Oak: The Archdruid of Nasaroi has a permanent barkskin effect (already included in his prodile), they need not maintain concentration on this. If dispelled, it returns at dawn the next day. Without this blessing, their AC drops to 12". This fits into something like "Epic Boon" from the DMG, so I guess it kinda fits. (Barkskin being concentration in the first place annoys me no little amount; see mage armor for why ...)

[EggKookoo]

Lair effects and legendary actions take care of the tougher monsters getting new tools; breaking the concentration rules, unless one uses something like glyph of warding mechanics, strikes me as a bad precedent to set.

I've made plenty of NPCs/monster with one-off variants on abilities and spells. A common thing is to give a mini-boss access to an unusually high level of a spell that it can cast X times a day, or on a recharge, without concern if that same creature would "logically" have access to other related spells. My typical justification is that the creature can just... do that.

PCs don't have some inherent entitlement to the same abilities NPCs have, or even the right to expect that the underlying processes that they have to work around are the same ones the NPCs have to work around. There are no classes within the fiction. The party wizard can't look at an NPC spellcaster and say "well, that's a wizard, so he should be able to do XYZ." The enemy "wizard" might just whip out some cure wounds. Or maybe he'll levitate while putting barkskin on himself, either because he can concentrate on both or has worked out a non-concentration method for one or both of them.

The only risk here is in creating opponents that become too broken-powerful, but custom abilities aren't the cause of that sort of thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

The party wizard can't look at an NPC spellcaster and say "well, that's a wizard, so he should be able to do XYZ." The enemy "wizard" might just whip out some cure wounds. Or maybe he'll levitate while putting barkskin on himself, either because he can concentrate on both or has worked out a non-concentration method for one or both of them.

The only risk here is in creating opponents that become too broken-powerful, but custom abilities aren't the cause of that sort of thing. The mechanics of how magic works, chapter 10 and 11, are what I am talking about.

Heck, I monkey around with stat blocks on NPCs all the time. I swap spell casting stats (Charisma is what I use for Cult Fanatics among others, though I have some times, just bumped Wisdom to 14 and cast with wisdom ... depends on the cult) and occasionally adjust the spell selections, but things like the 'at will' stuff for a dao or a djinn or an Oni I leave alone as those have some thematic bits that I don't want to tamper with.

[EggKookoo]

The mechanics of how magic works, chapter 10 and 11, are what I am talking about.

https://y.yarn.co/b78879ff-2c6f-401e-a660-eebaff0b35ba_text.gif

[Pex]

Generally it's accepted that 5e doesn't have PC / NPC "equality" when it comes to abilities, including by players. But I agree that anyone that's played a caster and knows which ones are concentration by heart will probably instinctively object that it's not possible the moment a DM does this ... because clearly they've made a mistake!. And probably be at least mildly irritated if the DM tells them it's a special ability of an otherwise player race NPC.

Segev's idea of a special multi-headed creature that can concentrate on two spells at once might work well as a final boss type. Or even a adventure specific recurring minion support caster, if it's established earlier in the adventure that non-minion casters of the same race can do two things at once due to having two or more heads, especially if they're fixed effects and a relatively benign combination. I mean, I doubt many players object to Marilith getting 6 sword attacks.

Yes, that's why I acquiesced to an extreme maybe. I was sure someone could think of something that would stop my automatic reflex of ranting. As something unique to this hypothetical creature, able to have two Actions, Bonus Actions, etc. but of one body of hit points I can probably get over it. Its CR needs to be at least Beholder range, a monster of similar if not exactly the same ability.

[Zuras]

Er, the low-CR 5 threats might actually be worse. A dragon's melee attacks will generally be in the normal DC 10 concentration territory you're used to; it's only the breath weapon that can exceed that, once every few rounds. By contrast, if a level 14 party is fighting a Hard encounter with a bunch of low-CR monsters, a ~20,000 adjusted XP budget buys an awful lot of monsters.

To use one of my favorite monsters, 3 Neogi Masters and 3 Star Spawn is Hard for a 14th level party (about 17K adjusted XP), and in addition to the melee threat, buys 3 rounds of Enslavement/Hold Person V for the PCs. DC 14 may not sound like a lot on paper, but (1) it's higher than the DC on the concentration save a dragon is likely to force, and (2) even a wizard with +6ish to Wisdom saves still has a 35% chance to fail it (obviously a Cleric or Druid will do better and an Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster or Ranger without Wis proficiency will do worse). Each Neogi can cause 7 saves over the first three rounds (Hold Person x2 = 6, plus Enslave) if it lives, and if 35% of those 21 saves fail, we're looking at about 7 failures amongst the 4 PCs. If you kill off half the Neogis pretty quickly and do some Counterspellling, you're still probably looking some at least 1-2 failures, and some of those failures involve charm which makes PCs not only lose concentration but actively stab each other in the back.

In other words, don't count on keeping your concentration in the low-CR fights either. They can be even worse.

{Scrubbed} It’s not like higher CR foes in the same style (like an Ulitharid and some Intellect Devourers, or an Archmage and Assassin friends with better spell selections) won’t be more problematic than a Dragon as well. Both Neogi and Star Spawn Manglers are arguably under-CR. Combining them to leverage the Paralysis crits + extra advantage damage + 6 attacks/turn burst is just you breaking the CR system, not a comment on whether concentration is generally harder to maintain at high levels due to higher CR monsters.

I will concede your point that any creature with an effective save or die/incapacitate mechanic that doesn’t require they hit first can be far more trouble for their CR in large numbers, but I think we already agree that Banshees, Intellect Devourers and similar creatures break the CR system if you use them in large numbers.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

pretty much, yeah.

To be specific I'm looking at a Trickery Cleric and Warlocks, and I honestly cant' see playing either of them past level 15 or so.

It feels like at that point you'd just lose concentration constantly. In the case of a Warlock, you're gonna chew through your spell slots incredibly fast, and in the case of the cleric, you're gonna get basically one turn of your Channel Divinity per fight.

Woo.

So good.

In playing 6 campaigns until about the level you are talking about we haven't had characters losing concentration regularly, so experience to the end of tier 3 would tell me this is an issue that can be dealt with. I'd say Warcaster and/ or proficiency whether through Resilient or not are key. We've tended to have Paladins in most (maybe all) of our groups so that's a biggie, and helped out the Shepherd Druid in my earlier example. Finding ways to make Dex saves and/ or reduce damage from big hits through things like Absorb Elements is going to help avoid those situations that are pretty much auto-fail as well.
I guess the only other thing I'd say is that there are casters (perhaps not full casters) where it may not be preferable to invest heavily in concentration. My Gloomstalker 9/ multiclass martial that I played to 16 total levels would be an example of that. Most of the time he has either Pass Without Trace or Hunter's Mark up and hung out in the back. Having to re-cast Hunter's Mark as a bonus action (if a battle was tight) really wasn't the end of the world. Nobody in our group has played a Warlock to high levels, but given their limited slots I wonder if it'd be possible to grab spells where concentration isn't used much if you still think it's a problem.

[Tanarii]

I'd say Warcaster and/ or proficiency whether through Resilient or not are key.
Resilient (Con) is a game changing feat for all casters except Sorcerers and EKs.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Resilient (Con) is a game changing feat for all casters except Sorcerers and EKs.

And Artificers!

[gloryblaze]

Locus of the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet can maintain concentration on two different spells at the same time. In addition, he has advantage on saving throws to maintain concentration on spells.

We don't need to speculate about hypothetical two-headed onis to have an example of a monster that can break the concentration rules, WotC has already printed one! It is a CR 26 ancient dragon who casts as a 20th-level wizard, though, so it fits the principle of "exceptional boss monster."

[MaxWilson]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} It’s not like higher CR foes in the same style (like an Ulitharid and some Intellect Devourers, or an Archmage and Assassin friends with better spell selections) won’t be more problematic than a Dragon as well.

I just want to point out that the primary threat in your "high-CR" example is the low-CR Intellect Devourers. You're making my point for me: the low-CR fights can sometimes be even worse than high-CR fights! Quantity has a quality of its own.


Both Neogi and Star Spawn Manglers are arguably under-CR. Combining them to leverage the Paralysis crits + extra advantage damage + 6 attacks/turn burst is just you breaking the CR system, not a comment on whether concentration is generally harder to maintain at high levels due to higher CR monsters.

But I "wasted" the Manglers, in the context of breaking concentration. I completely ignored the effect they'll have on combat and focused entirely on the other monster. You could replace them with any other CR 5 monster like Trolls and it wouldn't affect my argument, so what does it matter (in this context) if they're under-CR'ed?


I will concede your point that any creature with an effective save or die/incapacitate mechanic that doesn’t require they hit first can be far more trouble for their CR in large numbers, but I think we already agree that Banshees, Intellect Devourers and similar creatures break the CR system if you use them in large numbers.

It's not just the trick monsters either. Inspireds, Acolytes, Hobgoblin Devastators... if the wizards are squishy wizards instead of armored wizards, even regular grunts like kobolds and hobgoblins are likely to break their concentration one way or another.

This is by design. Bounded accuracy means low-CR monsters never go out of style.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is by design. Bounded accuracy means low-CR monsters never go out of style. There's a level 7 adventure in Candlekeep book with Cultists through Mage, cult fanatics, knight, veteran; runs the whole gamut.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Resilient (Con) is a game changing feat for all casters except Sorcerers and EKs.

Aren't you the one that doesn't allow feats at your table? I'd imagine without those feats concentration is way more of an issue.

[Zuras]

It's not just the trick monsters either. Inspireds, Acolytes, Hobgoblin Devastators... if the wizards are squishy wizards instead of armored wizards, even regular grunts like kobolds and hobgoblins are likely to break their concentration one way or another.

This is by design. Bounded accuracy means low-CR monsters never go out of style.


A +6/7 Con save is fairly typical for Tier 3 (14 Con +proficiency from resilient:con). If your con save is +6, it only takes 5 DC 10 checks to equal the risk of a DC 18 check, but 7 for a +7, 11 for a +8, and you *can’t* fail a DC 10 check with a +9. So the save equivalent for one 10d6/36 damage attack is equivalent to somewhere between five and infinity 3d6 damage attacks. That’s not a normal range for bounded accuracy.

In Tier 3 most casters are one Paladin away from completely breaking bounded accuracy for concentration checks on less than 22 damage. You may police your games so that you can rely on the assumptions of bounded accuracy, but it doesn’t even take magic items to break them in less curated games.

[Tanarii]

Aren't you the one that doesn't allow feats at your table? I'd imagine without those feats concentration is way more of an issue.Yes, and I've played AL as well. So I'm well aware of the difference in play between most casters not getting Con proficiency by the base rules vs being able to boost it with an optional rule (at a cost of an ASI). It's a commonly taken feat for good reasons, not just theoretical ones.

[MaxWilson]

A +6/7 Con save is fairly typical for Tier 3 (14 Con +proficiency from resilient:con). If your con save is +6, it only takes 5 DC 10 checks to equal the risk of a DC 18 check, but 7 for a +7, 11 for a +8, and you *can’t* fail a DC 10 check with a +9. So the save equivalent for one 10d6/36 damage attack is equivalent to somewhere between five and infinity 3d6 damage attacks. That’s not a normal range for bounded accuracy.

You'd be correct if failing a DC 10 concentration save were the only threat to your concentration, but as mentioned earlier, DC 14ish Wis saves and DC 14ish Con saves also threaten to break your concentration, while stunning/charming/paralyzing you at the same time.

[aadder]

In Tier 3 most casters are one Paladin away from completely breaking bounded accuracy for concentration checks on less than 22 damage.

sure, but how often are you taking ONLY 22 damage at that level?

[Boci]

sure, but how often are you taking ONLY 22 damage at that level?

Tier 3 is CR 11-15 right? Dragons, vampires, ice devils, erinyes all deal 22 or less damage with average rolls with any one attack (except for dragon's breath weapons of course). Other casters, giants and nalfeshnee tend to deal more in the same CR range from the MM at least.

[Zhorn]

sure, but how often are you taking ONLY 22 damage at that level?
That or less for a lot of the times you are hit with the average damage of a standard attack.
Sure, special abilities and high level spells will hit for more, but those are not an every-round-every-attack situation.
It's very common for high CR creatures to deliver higher collective DPR through multiple hits, and as covered earlier the damage of single hits for many high CR creatures is still in the low end of the 20's.

[aadder]

That or less for a lot of the times you are hit with the average damage of a standard attack.
Sure, special abilities and high level spells will hit for more, but those are not an every-round-every-attack situation.
It's very common for high CR creatures to deliver higher collective DPR through multiple hits, and as covered earlier the damage of single hits for many high CR creatures is still in the low end of the 20's.

I really wish this didn't make Trickery Clerics useless lol. I feel very defeated reading this whole thread and getting the sense of "yeah your class is useless but it is what it is."

[Zhorn]

I really wish this didn't make Trickery Clerics useless lol. I feel very defeated reading this whole thread and getting the sense of "yeah your class is useless but it is what it is."
I'm honestly at a loss to your conclusion here.

[Second Wind]

I really wish this didn't make Trickery Clerics useless lol. I feel very defeated reading this whole thread and getting the sense of "yeah your class is useless but it is what it is."
Trickery Clerics get incredible domain spells, and Invoke Duplicity is a way to avoid getting hit, so I'm not seeing the problem.

[Khrysaes]

Gonna add this old but relevant link:

https://thinkdm.org/2019/12/14/war-caster-vs-resilient/

[Zuras]

sure, but how often are you taking ONLY 22 damage at that level?


MaxWilson and I are arguing about how challenging maintaining concentration can be vs hordes of lower CR creatures. Thus the discussion on a DC 10 (20 or less) vs a DC 18 (36). I picked 18 as an example because it’s approximate average damage for a 10d6 attack/spell and it seemed a round-ish number.


You'd be correct if failing a DC 10 concentration save were the only threat to your concentration, but as mentioned earlier, DC 14ish Wis saves and DC 14ish Con saves also threaten to break your concentration, while stunning/charming/paralyzing you at the same time.


I agree that the Neogi encounter you detailed is a difficult one for maintaining concentration, but my opinion is that the action denial and enhanced crits from the manglers are the real threats in the encounter.

Consider—if the Neogi were only able to spam Command IV (grovel/flee) instead of Hold Person IV, how much of a difference would it make if a wizard wastes their turn going prone and groveling (keeping their concentration) versus losing both turn and concentration due to paralysis?

My experience has been that losing entire turns to failed saves is the problem, and the loss of concentration is secondary. Plus, most builds, resources and tactics you might employ to avoid getting whammied by half a dozen Neogi Masters or Banshees will also help maintaining concentration.

[Mastikator]

sure, but how often are you taking ONLY 22 damage at that level?

A Tarrasque does 5 attacks.

One bite ~36 damage

Two claws ~28 damage

Two horns ~32 damage

One tail ~24 damage

I feel like even uber monsters seem to do not that much damage

[Zuras]

A Tarrasque does 5 attacks.

One bite ~36 damage

Two claws ~28 damage

Two horns ~32 damage

One tail ~24 damage

I feel like even uber monsters seem to do not that much damage


The discussion is complicated by our tendency to better remember the more spectacular instances. I have clear Tier 3 memories of failing a Dex save and eating 70 damage from a Hellfire Orb, and of passing my save but still taking 100 damage from a Meteor Swarm, but only dimly recollect the details of fighting hordes of undead (I remember casting Spirit Guardians at 5th level and dodging for the rest of the fight, that’s all).

[Ionathus]

Concentration will suck against high-tier enemies because who can concentrate with an Ancient Red Dragon's claw sticking through your torso? It makes logical sense to me. At high levels a spellcaster has other methods they ought to use to keep out of the line of fire for huge burst damage.

Warcaster is an absolute must in all of my spellcaster PCs. Losing concentration is one of the most personally frustrating things for me, but I accept that tradeoff for the extra power sustained spells give me.


Concentration was put into the game at least partly to counter the "quadradic wizards" problem, so naturally it wouldn't scale up with the caster.

[rant on]

Personally I think they whiffed a bit with concentration. It seems to be meant to address two separate things.

Spells that are mutually-exclusive with other spells.
...and...
Spells that are "fragile" and can be disrupted when the caster is hurt.

In the 5e spirit of simplicity, they combined these into a single mechanic, but I think this is one case where the depth would have been worth the complexity of two separate things.

[rant off]

Having played the Baldur's Gate games for hundreds of hours, I can't tell you how happy I am to not have a list of 12 essential buff spells to cast before every encounter. Concentration simplifies that calculus a TON, in the spirit of simplicity, and that's a net positive for me.

[Segev]

Trickery Clerics get incredible domain spells, and Invoke Duplicity is a way to avoid getting hit, so I'm not seeing the problem.

If you're saying Invoke Duplicity helps you maintain your concentration by avoiding getting hit, I need to point out that you have to be USING concentration to maintain Invoke Duplicity. So while you're technically correct, it prevents you from using any other concentration-based ability at all.

[MaxWilson]

I agree that the Neogi encounter you detailed is a difficult one for maintaining concentration, but my opinion is that the action denial and enhanced crits from the manglers are the real threats in the encounter.

Consider—if the Neogi were only able to spam Command IV (grovel/flee) instead of Hold Person IV, how much of a difference would it make if a wizard wastes their turn going prone and groveling (keeping their concentration) versus losing both turn and concentration due to paralysis?

My experience has been that losing entire turns to failed saves is the problem, and the loss of concentration is secondary. Plus, most builds, resources and tactics you might employ to avoid getting whammied by half a dozen Neogi Masters or Banshees will also help maintaining concentration.

For a spellcaster already concentrating on a spell, e.g. Wall of Force or Conjure Elemental, being forced to flee isn't very threatening at all. Methinks your example is a perfect illustration of why the action denial isn't the primary problem here.

Anyway, my point has been and remains that incapacitating effects are a separate threat to concentration from damage and should not be neglected during planning. When you say, "most builds, resources and tactics you might employ to avoid getting whammied by half a dozen Neogi Masters or Banshees will also help maintaining concentration", sure, I agree. But the opposite is not true: countermeasures designed to help you keep concentration against DC 10 Con saves from 20 HP of damage or less won't help you avoid getting whammied by Acolytes, Spirit Nagas, mages with Sleet Storm, etc., etc. Focusing on concentration saves per se isn't wise.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm honestly at a loss to your conclusion here.

Me too. I don't think the OP is at a table that prevents the use of feats so there's no reason not to be able to get Resilient Con at 4th and have 16 con and a +5 bonus by 4th level for any race. If it's really an issue you can go Hill Dwarf (an excellent race for cleric) and start with a 16 Wis and 17 Con, so by 4th you've got an 18 Con + Proficiency. Based on what pretty much everyone else has written it is rare to take more than 20 points of damage until late game, so Concentration will actually do better than scale with level using this build for a long time.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I really wish this didn't make Trickery Clerics useless lol. I feel very defeated reading this whole thread and getting the sense of "yeah your class is useless but it is what it is."

I hope all is well....don't feel defeated 🥺, after seven years, just own that the game is yours and change what you don't like.😀

In terms of theory-craft: One could eliminate the Concentration requirement for Invoke Duplicity, as long as one added the condition that the duplicate can not be used to cast spells that require Concentration.

By RAW one already can use the Perfect Illusion to spam Word of Radiance.

What I think WotC most feared was a PC that was capable of casting Spirit Guardians on a damage immune drone that a Player could pilot around the battlefield.

Also, Cleric's of Trickery get the Cloak of Shadows Channel Divinity option at 6th level. For One Action, until the end of your next turn, you are Invisible. Against Strahd this is great.

In terms of Concentration itself, I agree with Korvin Starmast.
Overall, it forces the players to make tough decisions.......
..........it also justifies why the old narrative trope of Cabals of Wizards and other spellcasters can exist in the first place.....one person just doesn't have enough Concentration to cast everything. 🃏

[Segev]

In terms of theory-craft: One could eliminate the Concentration requirement for Invoke Duplicity, as long as one added the condition that the duplicate can not be used to cast spells that require Concentration.

Why? You have to use your own senses to target anything you cast; all the duplicate does is let you originate the spell from its location. It doesn't have its own concentration or anything; you're still casting the spell.

[Tanarii]

Me too. I don't think the OP is at a table that prevents the use of feats so there's no reason not to be able to get Resilient Con at 4th and have 16 con and a +5 bonus by 4th level for any race.
Thats some serious dedication of resources, highest score in Con and your first ASI. Or is that your point, if you care you can build for it?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thats some serious dedication of resources, highest score in Con and your first ASI. Or is that your point, if you care you can build for it?

A bit of both. Yes there are some resources going that way, but Clerics are pretty SAD, particularly if you pick one that is going to use a cantrip attack as the resourceless option. Assuming point buy it's definitely viable to go 15 Wis, 15 Con, 14 Dex (+ Racial Modifiers) and let the rest fall where they do. With the Hill Dwarf option you've got your 16 Wis so you're good to go. If your table is standard array then yeah, it'd be a tougher choice.
Personally I don't see the huge need to go that hard into Concentration that the OP does and I'd likely consider Resilient Con further down the road, particularly as it scales with proficiency. I'd likely use the level 4 ASI for Wis and get a more balanced build. The Shepherd Druid I documented earlier in the thread was a special case and it totally made sense to put every resource possible into concentration.

[Zuras]

For a spellcaster already concentrating on a spell, e.g. Wall of Force or Conjure Elemental, being forced to flee isn't very threatening at all. Methinks your example is a perfect illustration of why the action denial isn't the primary problem here.

Anyway, my point has been and remains that incapacitating effects are a separate threat to concentration from damage and should not be neglected during planning. When you say, "most builds, resources and tactics you might employ to avoid getting whammied by half a dozen Neogi Masters or Banshees will also help maintaining concentration", sure, I agree. But the opposite is not true: countermeasures designed to help you keep concentration against DC 10 Con saves from 20 HP of damage or less won't help you avoid getting whammied by Acolytes, Spirit Nagas, mages with Sleet Storm, etc., etc. Focusing on concentration saves per se isn't wise.


After checking some data, I will agree that you are probably right in principle, but what you describe doesn’t match my play experience. I checked my character sheets and noticed my lowest Wisdom save for any character I’ve played in Tier 3 was +10, so my experience is likely atypical.

My specific memories for losing concentration at bad time are to High CR stuff—Power Word Stun from a Glabrezu, Hellfire Orb from a Death Knight, thrown rocks from giants, Mind Blasts from illithids, and spells from casters (Finger of Death, Meteor Swarm, Psychic Scream and Feeblemind being the worst offenders).

[Tanarii]

Assuming point buy it's definitely viable to go 15 Wis, 15 Con, 14 Dex (+ Racial Modifiers) and let the rest fall where they do.
Ah. I never assume point buy. With standard array you're putting your highest in Con for that, so something like Con 15, Wis 14, Dex or Str 13 (+racials)

Otoh a Con of 13 (possibly including racials) would be pretty solid with Resilient Con giving save proficiency and turning it to a 14 at level 4. Thats probably a fairly common strategy for many caster players when feats are on the table.

[Zuras]

A bit of both. Yes there are some resources going that way, but Clerics are pretty SAD, particularly if you pick one that is going to use a cantrip attack as the resourceless option. Assuming point buy it's definitely viable to go 15 Wis, 15 Con, 14 Dex (+ Racial Modifiers) and let the rest fall where they do. With the Hill Dwarf option you've got your 16 Wis so you're good to go. If your table is standard array then yeah, it'd be a tougher choice.
Personally I don't see the huge need to go that hard into Concentration that the OP does and I'd likely consider Resilient Con further down the road, particularly as it scales with proficiency. I'd likely use the level 4 ASI for Wis and get a more balanced build. The Shepherd Druid I documented earlier in the thread was a special case and it totally made sense to put every resource possible into concentration.


Ah. I never assume point buy. With standard array you're putting your highest in Con for that, so something like Con 15, Wis 14, Dex or Str 13 (+racials)

Otoh a Con of 13 (possibly including racials) would be pretty solid with Resilient Con giving save proficiency and turning it to a 14 at level 4. Thats probably a fairly common strategy for many caster players when feats are on the table.

That’s the default at the Adventurers League tables I play and DM at. Clerics almost invariably want the extra HP and Con save proficiency by 5th level so wading into battle with Spirit Guardians up is a practical plan.

[Tanarii]

That’s the default at the Adventurers League tables I play and DM at. Clerics almost invariably want the extra HP and Con save proficiency by 5th level so wading into battle with Spirit Guardians up is a practical plan.
My AL experience (which was some time ago) was it was very often taken either by 4th or 8th for almost all non-Sorcs, but I don't know how many casters started with 11 Con vs 13 Con vs 15 Con.

And AL is point buy, so that could allow a 15/15 start. Or even 15/15/15.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Why? You have to use your own senses to target anything you cast; all the duplicate does is let you originate the spell from its location. It doesn't have its own concentration or anything; you're still casting the spell.

As to why? It is a nod to whatever fear prompted WotC to make Invoke Duplicity require Concentration in the first place. I was flying a conservative proposal.😉

I certainly wouldn't complain, if someone wanted to remove the Concentration requirement entirely.

/Devil's Advocate/:Invoke Duplicity is a low level enough ability that it can be combined with spells like Witchbolt and Compelled Duel to potentially create some wonky results....but nothing that immediately jumps out as game breaking.

Conjure Bonfire + Invoke Duplicity Image is probably better than I.D. Image + Word of Radiance, but the difference in terms of gameplay and results are likely negligible.

A Mulit-Classed Order of the Scribes Wizard, with the Awakened Mind Spellbook feature with access to Invoke Duplicity would make for an interesting Fore/Rear Guard and ambusher.

[Zuras]

My AL experience (which was some time ago) was it was very often taken either by 4th or 8th for almost all non-Sorcs, but I don't know how many casters started with 11 Con vs 13 Con vs 15 Con.

And AL is point buy, so that could allow a 15/15 start. Or even 15/15/15.

Since you can rebuild your AL character between sessions till 5th level, that’s an unanswerable question.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Ah. I never assume point buy. With standard array you're putting your highest in Con for that, so something like Con 15, Wis 14, Dex or Str 13 (+racials)

Otoh a Con of 13 (possibly including racials) would be pretty solid with Resilient Con giving save proficiency and turning it to a 14 at level 4. Thats probably a fairly common strategy for many caster players when feats are on the table.

With array on Hill Dwarf (and not needing any of the Tasha's options for modifiers) OP could still go 14 Dex, 13 Con (becomes 15), and 15 Wis (becomes 16). Can get Resilient Con whenever; personally I'd probably do it at 8th. Seems pretty good to me; Hill Dwarf Clerics are tough little buggers.
I've played only one Cleric in 5e and DMed several. This stat line is reminding me that because Med Armor Clerics put their 3 highest stats into the 3 most common saves they tend to make a lot; my experience is rather the opposite of what the OP suggests.

[Zuras]

Ah. I never assume point buy. With standard array you're putting your highest in Con for that, so something like Con 15, Wis 14, Dex or Str 13 (+racials)

Otoh a Con of 13 (possibly including racials) would be pretty solid with Resilient Con giving save proficiency and turning it to a 14 at level 4. Thats probably a fairly common strategy for many caster players when feats are on the table.


With array on Hill Dwarf (and not needing any of the Tasha's options for modifiers) OP could still go 14 Dex, 13 Con (becomes 15), and 15 Wis (becomes 16). Can get Resilient Con whenever; personally I'd probably do it at 8th. Seems pretty good to me; Hill Dwarf Clerics are tough little buggers.
I've played only one Cleric in 5e and DMed several. This stat line is reminding me that because Med Armor Clerics put their 3 highest stats into the 3 most common saves they tend to make a lot; my experience is rather the opposite of what the OP suggests.


The OP (if I understood correctly) stated that Concentration seems much harder to maintain at high levels, and War Caster/Resilient/Pumping Con work much better at lower levels than at higher ones as damage escalates. I don’t think you’re in disagreement with them on that point, at least the argument that there are good options to improve your Concentration at low to mid levels.

My experience with medium armor clerics is that the +2 to Dex you take for a solid AC is helpful but not game changing. You still get max damage from a bunch of DC 13 fireballs.

Granted my experience as a player is biased from mostly playing AL (filling an adventuring day in 2-4 hours means mostly hard/deadly encounters), so YMMV, but I have found Clerics to have the rougher time than all the classes that can pick up Absorb Elements, especially since their best control & AoE spell (Spirit Guardians) requires they get up close and personal with the enemy.

Compared to other classes that are often straight up encouraged to hide behind a rock after casting their big combat spell at mid levels (Druids’ Conjure Animals and Sorcerers Twinning Haste being the first examples that come to mind) clerics have to risk getting hit quite a bit. Even with the Tasha’s summon spells they can’t magic up someone else to fight for them till 9th level.

[KorvinStarmast]

The OP (if I understood correctly) stated that Concentration seems much harder to maintain at high levels, and War Caster/Resilient/Pumping Con work much better at lower levels than at higher ones as damage escalates.
While true, if you take 38 damage and need a 19 to save in Tier 3, having both advantage and proficiency on a 14 CON goes a long way toward making that save.
But if you don't save on that dragon breath and take 62 damage, rolling a 31's somewhat hard to do unless the party bard had given you inspiration beforehand. Or you are standing next to the paladin ...

[Zuras]

While true, if you take 38 damage and need a 19 to save in Tier 3, having both advantage and proficiency on a 14 CON goes a long way toward making that save.
But if you don't save on that dragon breath and take 62 damage, rolling a 31's somewhat hard to do unless the party bard had given you inspiration beforehand. Or you are standing next to the paladin ...


Is there actually a workable solution for reliably maintaining concentration at high levels besides not getting hit, shape changing to something with Legendary Resistances or standing next to the Paladin?

[Thunderous Mojo]

I have found Clerics to have the rougher time than all the classes that can pick up Absorb Elements, especially since their best control & AoE spell (Spirit Guardians) requires they get up close and personal with the enemy.


While a 15' cube, centered on one's self, doesn't sound very large, depending upon the terrain, I have found Spirit Guardians' size of effect to be more than sufficient to effectively act as a choke point and have my cleric find cover.

Thoros of Myr's playstyle, (to borrow some GRRM references) is very different than Melisandre's method of play.

Falcon's Hunting Lodge and Axehome scenarios in the Starter/Essential Kits both have plenty of opportunity to use Spirit Guardians to create nigh perfect kill zones.

[PhantomSoul]

While a 15' cube, centered on one's self, doesn't sound very large, depending upon the terrain, I have found Spirit Guardians' size of effect to be more than sufficient to effectively act as a choke point and have my cleric find cover.

I think I might be misparsing, but in case the 15' cube is for Spirit Guardians, it's actually a range of 15 feet from you, so a 15' radius sphere.

[Ionathus]

Is there actually a workable solution for reliably maintaining concentration at high levels besides not getting hit, shape changing to something with Legendary Resistances or standing next to the Paladin?

My take is that 62 damage all at once isn't a normal attack, even for Tier 4 monsters, even assuming a failed save against the damage: usually it's a recharge ability, a high-level spell, or requires setup conditions.


A Tarrasque's Swallow attack can dish out 56 dmg on average, but it needs to be grappling already -- otherwise it's stuck "only" doing 24-32 average damage with each melee attack.
An Ancient Gold Dragon can do 71 dmg with its Fire Breath, but that's recharge -- otherwise it's doing 17-21 dmg with melee.
A Solar can dish out a lot of pain in a turn, but it doesn't have a single attack or ability that does more than 30ish damage on average.
A Lich can average ~75 damage with Finger of Death or Disintegrate, but only once for each because they're high-level spells.


Basically, forcing a near-unsaveable amount of damage at Tier 4 is often possible, but it has a significant resource cost. Normal attacks are still in the 20ish damage range, even if the monster can make more of them.

Concentration is usually an attrition game.

[KorvinStarmast]

My take is that 62 damage all at once isn't a normal attack, even for Tier 4 monsters, even assuming a failed save against the damage: usually it's a recharge ability, a high-level spell, or requires setup conditions.
Yes, I got hit by a void dragon's breath. Adult, IIRC. A crit from a sentient statue would do something similar (6d12 + 4 + 6d12)
The only reason my concentration stayed up in a similar situation was that I have a shadowfellbrand tattoo that once per long rest that let me halve the damage once I missed the save.


Concentration is usually an attrition game. Bingo.

[Zuras]

My take is that 62 damage all at once isn't a normal attack, even for Tier 4 monsters, even assuming a failed save against the damage: usually it's a recharge ability, a high-level spell, or requires setup conditions.


A Tarrasque's Swallow attack can dish out 56 dmg on average, but it needs to be grappling already -- otherwise it's stuck "only" doing 24-32 average damage with each melee attack.
An Ancient Gold Dragon can do 71 dmg with its Fire Breath, but that's recharge -- otherwise it's doing 17-21 dmg with melee.
A Solar can dish out a lot of pain in a turn, but it doesn't have a single attack or ability that does more than 30ish damage on average.
A Lich can average ~75 damage with Finger of Death or Disintegrate, but only once for each because they're high-level spells.


Basically, forcing a near-unsaveable amount of damage at Tier 4 is often possible, but it has a significant resource cost. Normal attacks are still in the 20ish damage range, even if the monster can make more of them.

Concentration is usually an attrition game.

Given my experience with Power Word Stun, I’d say that tier 4 adversaries are guaranteed to break your concentration if the DM wants them to be able to.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Bingo.

Bingo is also a game of attrition.🃏

[KorvinStarmast]

Bingo is also a game of attrition.🃏 It's also a command to a container: Bin, go! :smalleek:

[PhantomSoul]

It's also a command to a container: Bin, go! :smalleek:

And pronounced like commanding a search engine to leave its pokeball!

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is there actually a workable solution for reliably maintaining concentration at high levels besides not getting hit, shape changing to something with Legendary Resistances or standing next to the Paladin?

Obviously we are using our own experiences here to guide our responses. Mine definitely support the POV that even through late tier 3/ early tier 4 this isn't a massive issue, at least to the point where it's worth devoting massive investment to combat the problem. My Cleric was a Hill Dwarf Light Cleric with roughly the stat line I gave earlier in the thread that I played through OotA, but I'd say the other Clerics I DM'ed had similar results. Things that I'd say help:
1) 16 Con + Resilient = +7 Save which means you need 3s for most Con saves by level 9. This continues to improve
2) As documented in the thread even most high CR monsters continue to do (multiple) attacks around 20 hp of damage.
3) Having a Paladin around and/ or a Bless spell up (among other things) will take most saves to auto-succeed territory.
4) There are a lot of magic items that help. I believe I was taking 1/2 from fire damage by tier 3. Though even if you're not, 28 hp from an average fireball is very makeable with some strategies discussed.
5) I do take the point some tables are playing with few deadly encounters per session. Tables with 6-8 more moderate encounters will have fewer attacks in the 40-70 hp range. I'm not sure there is a viable strategy for failing a Hellfire Orb save; probably better off to have a strategy to try and make it. Res Dex isn't the worst feat out there and might be worth considering late game.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure there is a viable strategy for failing a Hellfire Orb save; probably better off to have a strategy to try and make it. Res Dex isn't the worst feat out there and might be worth considering late game. Slight downside being that one can only take resilient once.

Enjoyed your post, I've seen similar stuff in play, however, I've noticed our Paladin not stick around to protect my saves but go charging in on his summoned steed. If I want to benefit from the aura I have to be close to combat - bard's a little squishy, low AC, so that reduces the number of times I get to benefit from the aura. If we make it to level 18 that problem, I think, goes away. :smallbiggrin:

[strangebloke]

Yeah imo there are so many ways to buff saves in this game that its not even funny, especially when you consider that by t3 you'll have a chance to get a few relevant feats. Resilient does scale with proficiency. Lucky gets you a reroll if you need it. Warcaster gives you advantage. Paladin gives 3-5. Bardic Inspiration gives you 1d6-1d12. Bless, if you can justify it, gives you 1d4. That's just core class features and feats.

A 20th level character can pretty easily have something like 3 (Con) + 6 (prof) + 5 (paladin) + 1d12 (bard) = +20.5, rolled with advantage with a third reroll on failure, for an average of 36, with a std deviation of 5, meaning 70% of the time you'll be between 31 and 41. How often are you going to have to roll higher than 31 on a Concentration save?

Granted, that's with three feats and a lot of support from the team, but if you consider a case where you just have the pally bonus and resilient:CON, you still get 70% of your results between 19 and 30.

The problem of not being able to use lower level spells is an issue, I supposed. I'd be in favor of removing concentration requirements for some as a result of upcasting them. 5th level hex still requiring concentration (that you have to maintain for hours and hours) is pretty weird, and I'd prefer the option where it lasts less long but doesn't require concentration, as that seems far more interesting and useful.

[ProsecutorGodot]

A 20th level character can pretty easily have something like 3 (Con) + 6 (prof) + 5 (paladin) + 1d12 (bard) = +20.5, rolled with advantage with a third reroll on failure, for an average of 36, with a std deviation of 5, meaning 70% of the time you'll be between 31 and 41. How often are you going to have to roll higher than 31 on a Concentration save?

Granted, that's with three feats and a lot of support from the team, but if you consider a case where you just have the pally bonus and resilient:CON, you still get 70% of your results between 19 and 30.

Yeah, being (or having) a Paladin makes a pretty significant difference. My 18th level Paladin has a +17 with advantage before any conditional modifiers, though it's almost always +1d4 because I have prayer beads with Bless on them.

It's very rare that I even have to roll concentration, typically our DM just skips having me roll except on the rare times where I take massive damage.

I think the last time I actually lost concentration was when we were struck by a shadow dragons breath attack and I used my aura to take the damage it would have dealt to our Sorcerer, who failed their own save. I think it was something around 120 damage, the DM ruled out as a single instance which I think was fair.

[Pex]

Bingo is also a game of attrition.🃏


It's also a command to a container: Bin, go! :smalleek:

It's a common dog name for farmers. People applaud it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Slight downside being that one can only take resilient once.

Enjoyed your post, I've seen similar stuff in play, however, I've noticed our Paladin not stick around to protect my saves but go charging in on his summoned steed. If I want to benefit from the aura I have to be close to combat - bard's a little squishy, low AC, so that reduces the number of times I get to benefit from the aura. If we make it to level 18 that problem, I think, goes away. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks. Good point on the resilient. I came across 1 thread that mentioned DnD Beyond seemed to allow multiple; I wonder how many DMs are holding characters to this limit. If they are it might be a better strategy to get Warcaster + Res Dex. Early game the extra roll is better than +2 for proficiency on concentration, though mid game if you can regularly get to auto-succeed territory Res Con definitely takes it. Then you get to weighing other factors like benefits of Warcaster and for Dwarves the non Concentration benefits of Res Con are less due to poison resistance.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, being (or having) a Paladin makes a pretty significant difference. My 18th level Paladin has a +17 with advantage before any conditional modifiers, though it's almost always +1d4 because I have prayer beads with Bless on them.

It's very rare that I even have to roll concentration, typically our DM just skips having me roll except on the rare times where I take massive damage.

I think the last time I actually lost concentration was when we were struck by a shadow dragons breath attack and I used my aura to take the damage it would have dealt to our Sorcerer, who failed their own save. I think it was something around 120 damage, the DM ruled out as a single instance which I think was fair.

Right, and that's the thing, isn't it? The situations where you could lose concentration are situations where you should be afraid to lose concentration, even if you've invested a fair amount into con saves. Conversely if a player invests nothing, they'll still be... okay, under a lot of circumstances. Under other circumstances they'll lose a few slots.

[Sigreid]

Well, it's really a case of the first level character being run into by a toddler on a tricycle and the 15th level wizard getting run over by a dump truck. If you don't practice taking the hit, why would you get better at it?

[TheBrassDuke]

Hello everyone,

So recently i've been playing with a bunch of builds, and I find that Concentration is WAY easier to maintain at low levels, and that's just odd to me. The context here being that I am building characters that have their core mechanics around channeling powerful spells like Call Lightning or Spirit Guardians, and I keep finding that it seems like once I get up to higher levels, that's not nearly as viable. I find I get knocked out of channeling with regularity once I hit high enough level, and at that point, why channel?

Here's my thoughts:

At low level, you can use Variant Human or Custom Lineage to give pretty much any given character 14 CON with The Resilient feat, starting you with a +4 to your concentration saving throws. If you're any number of class builds, you can grab AC 18 easy through either plate armor, or medium + shield + 14/15 DEX. If you are one of several classes, you can grab Mirror Image. Collectively, you can through many avenues, by level 5, build a character that can sit in the back with AC 18 with +5 to concentration saving throws, with Mirror Image as a save against even GETTING hit. The only thing threatening you against a DC greater than 10 is a hit over 21 damage.

Now, fast forward to level 16, and I feel like the only additional protection i might pick up is Advantage on a concentration throw through War Caster or Warlock. Enemies hit WAY harder, so the additional +2 and re-roll don't seem to be that much additional protection. I feel like concentration spells just don't last as long at that point, and that really takes the wind out of my sails for builds that rely on them like a Warlock maintaining Hex or what-have-you.

Am I just bad at strategizing for this?

To make a long answer short: Fluff-wise, it’s easier for lower-level characters to Concentrate and channel spells because they are learning; they’re testing the waters in the Weave, experimenting with what works for them and what doesn’t.

Later on, you’re attempting to learn newer, more powerful channeling spells. That’s a complex dance or ritual here, one you’re just getting the keys to. And not only that, these powers are dangerous primal forces you’re messing with. It’s never gonna get easier from here.

Just my two cents, and not necessarily helpful. My b

[Segev]

To make a long answer short: Fluff-wise, it’s easier for lower-level characters to Concentrate and channel spells because they are learning; they’re testing the waters in the Weave, experimenting with what works for them and what doesn’t.

Later on, you’re attempting to learn newer, more powerful channeling spells. That’s a complex dance or ritual here, one you’re just getting the keys to. And not only that, these powers are dangerous primal forces you’re messing with. It’s never gonna get easier from here.

Just my two cents, and not necessarily helpful. My b

I think, fluff-wise, this would work better if you also didn't have to concentrate on lower-level spells anymore. But here, you're having as much trouble concentrating on bless as you would on polymorph, and at higher level, it's harder to concentrate on bless than it was at lower level. (At least, by the premise of this thread, which I accept for argument's sake here because I haven't done any math on this, myself.)

[Ionathus]

I think, fluff-wise, this would work better if you also didn't have to concentrate on lower-level spells anymore. But here, you're having as much trouble concentrating on bless as you would on polymorph, and at higher level, it's harder to concentrate on bless than it was at lower level. (At least, by the premise of this thread, which I accept for argument's sake here because I haven't done any math on this, myself.)

I wouldn't have objected to a Tier 4 feature for, say, Wizards or maybe Sorcerers that allows them to pick a single 1st or 2nd level spell and ignore the concentration requirement. That would be a cool way to demonstrate a wizard's intellectual mastery, or a sorcerer's innate maturity of their magic. Shouldn't be too broken if you kept it to low-level spells.

[TheBrassDuke]

I think, fluff-wise, this would work better if you also didn't have to concentrate on lower-level spells anymore. But here, you're having as much trouble concentrating on bless as you would on polymorph, and at higher level, it's harder to concentrate on bless than it was at lower level. (At least, by the premise of this thread, which I accept for argument's sake here because I haven't done any math on this, myself.)


I wouldn't have objected to a Tier 4 feature for, say, Wizards or maybe Sorcerers that allows them to pick a single 1st or 2nd level spell and ignore the concentration requirement. That would be a cool way to demonstrate a wizard's intellectual mastery, or a sorcerer's innate maturity of their magic. Shouldn't be too broken if you kept it to low-level spells.

I really wish they would do something about it though…my Hexblade is loaded with Concentration spells.

[Eric Diaz]

The strangest part of this for me is that it can get worse as you level up, since the chances of a higher DC (due to increasing damage) is more common at higher levels.

However, even an adult red dragon have no attack that deal more than 20 points of damage on average (except Fire Breath - it isn't likely that you're keeping concentration after getting hit by that!).

Overall, I'd prefer that all saving throws would improve with level, but the current system kinda works, and it's nice that spellcasters have a few obstacles in their way.

[MoiMagnus]

The strangest part of this for me is that it can get worse as you level up, since the chances of a higher DC (due to increasing damage) is more common at higher levels.

That's the case for most spells. They get worse as you level up, unless you upcast them.
The level 1 Harm or Magic missile is less and less useful as you level up, because of the increase of enemy hit points.

[Which make me think that getting rid of concentration could probably be an upcast option. Something like "use a spell slot of 3 levels higher to get rid of the concentration prerequisite".]

[PhoenixPhyre]

The strangest part of this for me is that it can get worse as you level up, since the chances of a higher DC (due to increasing damage) is more common at higher levels.

However, even an adult red dragon have no attack that deal more than 20 points of damage on average (except Fire Breath - it isn't likely that you're keeping concentration after getting hit by that!).

Overall, I'd prefer that all saving throws would improve with level, but the current system kinda works, and it's nice that spellcasters have a few obstacles in their way.

It only gets worse because the opposition gets stronger. Which, in my opinion, is Working As Intended. It should be harder to keep concentration (or do anything) against harder opponents. Otherwise, there's no harder there, it's a treadmill. Especially since you actually gain a lot of different ways to avoid having to make concentration checks at all as you level up--different defenses, more mobility options, etc. And you can improve your concentration checks (via putting ASIs into CON if nothing else!), just at a cost.

The difficulty of any given task should remain constant across levels unless the character's parameters that affect it change. Avoiding level scaling for target numbers/difficulties is the main part of bounded accuracy.

All in all, I'm totally fine with concentration as it is. Even if I wasn't, casters don't need any buffs, and anything that mucks with concentration is a huge buff to casters, in a way that they need least.

[Garresh]

Somewhat by design. It makes con save casters much better. No issue with it personally.

[Sigreid]

That's the case for most spells. They get worse as you level up, unless you upcast them.
The level 1 Harm or Magic missile is less and less useful as you level up, because of the increase of enemy hit points.

[Which make me think that getting rid of concentration could probably be an upcast option. Something like "use a spell slot of 3 levels higher to get rid of the concentration prerequisite".]

Wouldn't be that hard to create a concentration spell that sets up a sustained energy pool for the duration for a spell up to x level. Maybe something like a 5th level spell that will sustain a 1st or 2nd level spell, spending the slots for each.