Clericzilla, Domains/Feats/Buffs?

[AnimeTheCat]

A different thread, that got derailed from the OP, started talking about Clerics doing what Fighters do better than Fighters. I understand that is the commonly held belief, and that's fine. I'm not here to argue for or against it. No, no. This is a fact finding mission to nail down exactly what domains, feats, and buffs a Clericzilla has. I'm not able to get to D&D Wiki, Brilliant Gameologist (if it still exists), etc. Only able to get to GtiP, so please don't just link to another place. Just drop the feats, spells, or domains that are most commonly used.

If I understand correctly, the general concept is to take the Planning domain for the Extend Spell metamagic feat as a bonus feat, as well as a domain that grants Extra Turning (The one I know of is Undeath). I think that's the typical domain selection. Then I think that the idea is to either use a flaw to take both Persistent spell and DMM: Persist or play as a race that gets a bonus feat (human, strongheart halfling, we all know them). From that point, you've got a turn pool big enough to fuel one DMM at level 1, probably Divine Favor (if you're trying to be a frontliner) is that correct?

This is where it gets fuzzy, so I'm looking for what next. What is your traditional spell loadout, future feat selection, etc (those of you who play Clericzillas)? Divine Power comes online at level 7, Righteous Might comes on at 9, but what are you doing the rest of the time? What spells are you normally using, what feats are you taking, what prestige classes are you going towards? How do you, if you play a Clericzilla, play your clericzilla.

EDIT: Since it came up in the very first response, I'll just say that this isn't for a specific build or anything in particular. This is about you and how you build your clerics, or what you think would make the "best" persistent spell cleric.

EDIT 2: If it makes it easier, just assume that you have a 32 point buy, all sources open, and you're building the strongest cleric you can that uses DMM: Persist. I'm just curious what people use or would like to use.

[RandomPeasant]

Like any build in 3e, it varies a great deal depending on what sources you allow and what rulings the game operates under. Can you use domain turning to fuel DMM? Can you buy up a bunch of nightsticks? What buffs do you have access to? Are you talking about a melee build, or a more traditional Cleric Archer? Are you allowed to play a Cloistered Cleric? The basic concept of the martial Cleric is Persistent divine power, what you layer on top of that is quite widely variable.

[AnimeTheCat]

Like any build in 3e, it varies a great deal depending on what sources you allow and what rulings the game operates under. Can you use domain turning to fuel DMM? Can you buy up a bunch of nightsticks? What buffs do you have access to? Are you talking about a melee build, or a more traditional Cleric Archer? Are you allowed to play a Cloistered Cleric? The basic concept of the martial Cleric is Persistent divine power, what you layer on top of that is quite widely variable.

I mean your Cleric. When you play, have played, or plan out your persistomancy cleric, what do you do? I'm not planning this for any game or anything, I'm just wondering what the general population does. This is not for a game. I guess that means go ham with whatever your theoretical best cleric is. No holds barred, no resources out of reach.

[Lilapop]

The cookie cutter version has multiple flavor breaks. It runs a positive energy cleric with the Undeath domain (which is negative energy through and through, and there is no alternative in published 3.x), and it sprinkles in a level in Death Delver which is queeeestionable. I usually obtain martial weapon proficiency (on big frontliners, simple->martial gets a hidden boost to its budget gain because there are no full-budget twohanded simple weapons), so taking Extra Turning as a normal feat and using the War domain is a positive through the free Weapon Focus. Alternatively, you can homebrew an Undeath domain anathema. Death Delver I tend to simply skip, though the full power of this build requires the third pool.

On that note, your pool options are:
- Azurin cleric, Drow cleric, or Lightbringer cleric
- Four levels in actual (not prestige) paladin with Rebuke Dragons (Dragon Magic iirc)
- Sacred Exorcist (CD), Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), or Soldier of Light (Deities and Demigods)
- Death Delver

While cookie cutter goes Lightbringer -> Sacred Exorcist -> Death Delver, I don't like the cost in skillpoints for Sexo. Instead, my personal build is a KotR with a pair of Pathfinder feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster) that cover KotR's casting progression loss. This is ultimately not a powerful choice, as you lose 2-3 persist slots.

For spells, my usual source is this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?225411-clericzilla&p=12358601#post12358601). My level 1 persist is bless instead of divine favor, though I'd swap it over for elation once 2nds come in, and its actual bonuses are ultimately superseded completely by mass conviction and righteous wrath of the faithful. And yes, as more persist slots become available (and the bonus becomes more relevant through higher caster level), I do eventually add divine favor to the list.

Other persistables I have on my list:
- lore of the gods
- mass resist energy
- interfaith blessing
- fire shield
- surge of fortune
- lesser visage of the deity
- divine protection

Potential feats above and beyond just more ETs:
- Power attack
- Easy metamagic
- Reach spell or ocular spell to persist non-persistables

Even with my voluntarily tamed implementation, I do have better numbers myself than our barbarian pretty much across the board, unless he shocktroopers. More HP (some are temporary, but that distinction starts to lose meaning with persisted buffs), better AC, better saves, better base damage, better damage bonus, more attacks, persisted flight, some damage reduction. Eh, his initiative might be better. I can pull those numbers and post them here if you want.

So far, the ones I have seen in play were a level 1 human cleric of Mayaheine with the War domain and a halberd, and a level 4 lesser ice para-genasi cleric of Aengrist with the War domain and a bastard sword, both going for Sacred Exorcist. Those I built with and for my players as a DM, while so far nobody has been willing to DM for me so I can actually play my human Knight of the Raven of a custom deity with a custom domain. And I will most likely play a wizard first if the opportunity arises, though I have her written up for level 9 as a showcase and goalpost while building the ice para-genasi (that particular party is actually just my current player's backup characters to their level 9 mains - its where the comparison to the barbarian comes from).

[AnimeTheCat]

The cookie cutter version has multiple flavor breaks. It runs a positive energy cleric with the Undeath domain (which is negative energy through and through, and there is no alternative in published 3.x), and it sprinkles in a level in Death Delver which is queeeestionable. I usually obtain martial weapon proficiency (on big frontliners, simple->martial gets a hidden boost to its budget gain because there are no full-budget twohanded simple weapons), so taking Extra Turning as a normal feat and using the War domain is a positive through the free Weapon Focus. Alternatively, you can homebrew an Undeath domain anathema. Death Delver I tend to simply skip, though the full power of this build requires the third pool.

On that note, your pool options are:
- Azurin cleric, Drow cleric, or Lightbringer cleric
- Four levels in actual (not prestige) paladin with Rebuke Dragons (Dragon Magic iirc)
- Sacred Exorcist (CD), Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), or Soldier of Light (Deities and Demigods)
- Death Delver

While cookie cutter goes Lightbringer -> Sacred Exorcist -> Death Delver, I don't like the cost in skillpoints for Sexo. Instead, my personal build is a KotR with a pair of Pathfinder feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster) that cover KotR's casting progression loss. This is ultimately not a powerful choice, as you lose 2-3 persist slots.

For spells, my usual source is this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?225411-clericzilla&p=12358601#post12358601). My level 1 persist is bless instead of divine favor, though I'd swap it over for elation once 2nds come in, and its actual bonuses are ultimately superseded completely by mass conviction and righteous wrath of the faithful. And yes, as more persist slots become available (and the bonus becomes more relevant through higher caster level), I do eventually add divine favor to the list.

Other persistables I have on my list:
- lore of the gods
- mass resist energy
- interfaith blessing
- fire shield
- surge of fortune
- lesser visage of the deity
- divine protection

Potential feats above and beyond just more ETs:
- Power attack
- Easy metamagic
- Reach spell or ocular spell to persist non-persistables

Even with my voluntarily tamed implementation, I do have better numbers myself than our barbarian pretty much across the board, unless he shocktroopers. More HP (some are temporary, but that distinction starts to lose meaning with persisted buffs), better AC, better saves, better base damage, better damage bonus, more attacks, persisted flight, some damage reduction. Eh, his initiative might be better. I can pull those numbers and post them here if you want.

So far, the ones I have seen in play were a level 1 human cleric of Mayaheine with the War domain and a halberd, and a level 4 lesser ice para-genasi cleric of Aengrist with the War domain and a bastard sword, both going for Sacred Exorcist. Those I built with and for my players as a DM, while so far nobody has been willing to DM for me so I can actually play my human Knight of the Raven of a custom deity with a custom domain. And I will most likely play a wizard first if the opportunity arises, though I have her written up for level 9 as a showcase and goalpost while building the ice para-genasi (that particular party is actually just my current player's backup characters to their level 9 mains - its where the comparison to the barbarian comes from).

Hey, I really like how you're largely using party buffs and such. That's not actually what I think of every time I hear people talk about persistent spell clerics.

Does Sacred Exorcist actually grant an additional turning pool? It looks to me like they just continue turn undead as if you were a cleric? Either way, lots of turn attempts as is the point.

How do you protect yourself from Dispel Magic? Is it via magic items or something? I don't really see any big caster level boosters in there.

[RandomPeasant]

I mean your Cleric. When you play, have played, or plan out your persistomancy cleric, what do you do?

And I'm saying that depends wildly on the campaign. The absolute max power build is Cloistered Cleric into Dwoermekeeper using Supernatural Spell limited wish to repeatedly awaken yourself for sky-high CHA to fuel turning attempts to persist a laundry list of spells on top of all the other ways to abuse that. But I don't think I've ever played a campaign where I would consider that even vaguely appropriate. The martial Cleric is not so much a "stock build" as it is a variety of tools that effect the central "use DMM: Persistent to get a pile of buffs" trick. There's not one Batman Wizard build or one Gish build, and there's not one Cleric Archer build either.

[AnimeTheCat]

And I'm saying that depends wildly on the campaign. The absolute max power build is Cloistered Cleric into Dwoermekeeper using Supernatural Spell limited wish to repeatedly awaken yourself for sky-high CHA to fuel turning attempts to persist a laundry list of spells on top of all the other ways to abuse that. But I don't think I've ever played a campaign where I would consider that even vaguely appropriate. The martial Cleric is not so much a "stock build" as it is a variety of tools that effect the central "use DMM: Persistent to get a pile of buffs" trick. There's not one Batman Wizard build or one Gish build, and there's not one Cleric Archer build either.

ok, so then pick one and describe what it looks like. feats, buffs you've persisted, feats you picked. Like... just pick one and go with it for what you would play in your dream campaign. I don't care if it would be considered vaguely appropriate in a campaign. Showcase the optimization chops.

[Telonius]

Most "Clericzilla" builds depend heavily on (ab)use of Divine Metamagic. The feat progression is: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell (from Complete Arcane), Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) (from Complete Divine). The trick allows you to burn through Turn Undead attempts to reduce the cost of Persistent Spell down to zero; so what would typically be a limited-time, self-only buff turns into an always-on, all-day thing. The Divine Power spell is the most famous one to persist. Normally it's rounds/level. But Persisted, you get Fighter BAB, the equivalent of a Belt of Giant Strength +6 (without taking up a slot), and temporary hit points. All that in just one spell. You could also use it for something like Divine Favor, Righteous Might, or any number of useful buffs.

That's strong as it is. You would think that the number of Turn Undead attempts you have per day would be a limiting factor, but there are several ways to increase that (ranging from standard to extra-cheesy). Increasing Charisma score, having a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and (most infamously) Nightsticks. This last is an item from Libris Mortis. It's a relatively cheap rod that grants you +4 Turn Undead attempts. (Coincidentally enough, Persistent Spell is a +4 metamagic). As written, the bonus is un-typed, meaning you can get more than one of them. Get as many of them as you want persisted spells, and there you have your Clericzilla.

[Lilapop]

Hey, I really like how you're largely using party buffs and such. That's not actually what I think of every time I hear people talk about persistent spell clerics.
Often, the single target buffs are touch spells and require +2 metamagics, while the mass versions are persistable at probably the same adjusted spell level. Bless over divine favor is mostly informed by having a hand in the swift hunter build in the same party and deciding to forgo the level 1 BAB in favor of scout skills gaining the x4, and righteous wrath of the faithful has no competitors for its bonus type slots. But yes, this is one of the main flaws in comparing a clericzilla to a muggle frontliner: you coulda just put some buffs on the muggle. Well, except for the biggest ones like divine power and righteous might (or wildshape, if we widen our horizon to include the other form of divine caster zilla).


Does Sacred Exorcist actually grant an additional turning pool? It looks to me like they just continue turn undead as if you were a cleric? Either way, lots of turn attempts as is the point.
If you already have TU, Sexo only adds to the class level used in the calculations. The trick is to not actually have TU, but trade it away for one of the ACFs that can be used to fuel divine feats. And those are only available for clerics (and one is also for paladins), so you end up using only one from each category I list there.


How do you protect yourself from Dispel Magic? Is it via magic items or something? I don't really see any big caster level boosters in there.
Mostly just Bead of Karma. I didn't touch upon items at all... Reliquary Holy Symbol is well known, as are the Bead of Karma and Nightsticks, but one of the more obscure gems is the Sword of the Glorious Pearl from Stormwrack. It can be extrapolated as a +1 WSA, to be slapped onto any gauntlet/armor spikes/braid blade/horned helmet/boot blade/bayonet/etc you happen to have free.

Oh, another thing we did on the ice para-genasi: there is a Dragon Mag flaw that adds a penalty on all attacks with any weapon that isn't your deity's favored one. Doubles down on the War domain choice instead of PGtF's Militia feat, the latter being what I do on my own build (as a KotR, I'm looking for a rather knightly image of pollaxe, arming sword and warhammer, so I do want global martial weapon prof simply for flavor reasons).




(Coincidentally enough, Persistent Spell is a +4 metamagic) Correction: +6 metamagic, and DMM requires adjustment+1 TUs, so 7 for every persist.

[smetzger]

How do you protect yourself from Dispel Magic? Is it via magic items or something? I don't really see any big caster level boosters in there.

Ring of Counterspells.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Does Gestalt count? Every DMM cleric I've built has been in a gestalt. If you're ok with gestalt I'll post the build I used. The design was trying to create a Lich King esque character. So I went Melee, Controls Undead, Negative energy etc.

[Efrate]

Human cleric. Planning plus undeath domains.

16 wis 16 cha some con dump int and dex, 13 strength is ideal but not necessary. Lvl 1 feats persist and dmm persist. Lvl 3 feat dmm extend or power attack if you got the 13 strength. Lvl 6 whichever other one. Weapon is good old quarterstaff. Divine favor or bless to start. At level 3 divine favor over bless generally. Keep magic vestament up. Does not need persist just extend. Reliquary holy symbol. Best plate you can get. You could go cloistered cleric for knowledge devotion but I like the hp and heavier armor earlier.

RAI interpretation/arguement: Since turn air creatures or whatever functions like turn undead except the target you are turning, it's a reasonable substitute to use in dmm. Get contemplative and stack domains that offer turning. Your extra turning applies to all things you can turn.

If no, just keep boosting cha and taking extra turning. Easy metamagic or the like is also nice.

Hit the ground running once you hit 7 with divine power, giving you 36k+ worth of free item. Extend and persist your buffs so you have double the amount, you apply beneficial effects in the way you want so persist then extend. Even at 7 you should pretty easily be able to have at least divine power, magic vestaments, gmw, and divine favor, up at all times.

Armor spikes, on your armor and your animated shield with the weapon enhancement from SK that allows you to counter a spell, put dispel/disfunction and greater dispel, ring of counterspells and maybe ring of spell battle. Magic gauntlets for reaving dispel and a boot knife for dispelling screen if you feel the need. Or just boost CL with bead of karma, etc. So even a +20 cannot dispel you. And/or ocular spell amf so you add that too.

Spend money on nightsticks.

[Godofallu]

You can view my DMM Persist Cleric if you'd like.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2479829

For me Draconic Polymorph is probably the best persist spell but there are many other great ones. Elation for lvl 2 spells for example will give your team a big boost as early as lvl 3.

[Rebel7284]

So the core of CoDzilla is of course Persist Spell + buffs, but that can go on most cleric builds and make them better!
I will note that free persist is mediocre at level 1, there just aren't that many first level spells that make a massive difference even with a 24 hour duration. However, the power of Persistent Spell grows dramatically as you level.

Some tips:
- As other folks have mentioned, getting access to multiple turning pools helps immensely. Usually the easiest way to do it is to be good, trade your Turn Undead for Rebuke Dragons or Turn Essentia or Lightbringer Cleric and then take a single dip into Sacred Exorcist. However, even with a single pool of turn/rebuke undead, making a couple of buff spells last all day is great.
- Note that lots of people advocate for combining rods of extend spell/extend spell itself with persisted spells, making them last 48 hours. In general, the FAQ says several times that abilities stack in the most beneficial way, so precedent says that this should work. However, this isn't really spelled out in the rules in an ironclad way.
- Notable spells that I have used or researched:
2nd
Cloud of Knives: Free attacks 1/round are nothing to sneeze at.
Elation: Bonuses to the whole party!
3rd
Lesser Vigor (Mass): Give your whole party fast healing 1. At the early levels, it can add up over an encounter and removes the need to heal after combat.
Ice Axe: Make touch attacks for lots of damage all day/every day starting at level 5? If you run into creatures that resist Ice, use Darkfire instead
Darkfire: Touch attacks like Ice Axe, but fire! Can also be used as a ranged attack. Scales better in the later levels.
Channeled Divine Shield: DR10/Evil means that many enemies at this level can't really damage you.
Divine Retaliation: More free attacks
4th
Holy/Infernal transformation (Lesser): Some nice bonuses, but also gives your the outsider[Good/Evil] subtype which can be helpful for some BoED spells.
Divine Power: Full BAB all day and +6 Strength. This core spell is the one that finally makes you in all ways better than a fighter.
Recitation: nice bonuses and gets better if everyone worships the same deity
5th
Righteous Might: More combat bonuses and a size increase
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful: Haste++
6th
Visage of the Deity: More bonuses!
7th
Shield of the Archons: Stop enemy spells
Holy Star: Multiple helpful modes
Holy/Infernal Transformation: More bonuses!
9th
Visage of the Deity, Greater: More bonuses!

- Certain domains offer excellent off-list persistable spells, so that's something to look at.
- Divine Magician alternate class features lets you essentially create a custom domain. If you go this route and expect to get to higher levels, Mystic Shield is persistable and amazing.
- Close wounds is a fun spell that allows you to heal yourself and your allies as a swift action while you full attack.

Class tips
You can be a regular ol' Cloistered Cleric 20 and still end up with a full BAB/High AC and DR/self healing monstrosity with a ton of extra attacks and super high stats. However, there are a lot of Cleric Prestige Classes that are easy to enter and offer helpful class features.
- Contemplative 1: Costs almost nothing to enter and gives you an extra domain, a late level dip.
- Church Inquisitor: Easy to enter as early as level 4 and has some class features, mostly filler though.
- Dweomerkeeper 10: Amazing class that turns you into a divine magician with more ability to cast spells spontaneously and Supernatural Spell is broken good. Capstone also makes Persistent Spell cheaper. Enter with Magical Training regional feat and get full caster progression.
- Divine Oracle 2: you can pick up the prerequisite feat from a magical location and get Evasion that works in armor. Useful filler!
- Ruby Knight Vindicator: while you end up with competing uses for Turn Undead attempts, extra actions are always useful, and you end up with good maneuvers to complement your already sky-high stats. May or may not be worthwhile.
- Ordained Champion: Get a bunch of combat abilities and possibly extra feats, however the hit to your casting may not be worthwhile.
- Sacred Exorcist has been mentioned and should always be considered if you qualify.

Those classes are a good summary of components often used in building any of the three basic cleric builds
- Spellcaster: Focuses on being able to cast spells better/better access to spells. Cloistered Cleric, Dweomerkeeper/Anyspell from Spell Domain tend to be common here.
- Fighter++: Focuses on being a holy warrior/better paladin RKV/Ordained Champion are common here.
- Cleric++: Pick up improvements to the cleric class to add flexibility or power that doesn't fall into the previous two buckets. Stuff like Divine Oracle/ Church Inquisitor fall here.

There are of course other niche builds like Cleric archers and such.

ALL of those builds benefit from having some spells persisted. A spellcaster might focus on more defensive spells while a frontliner might focus on Divine Power, but they all benefit.

I think you easily surpass a fighter the moment you get 3rd level spells if you want
Persisting Channeled Divine Shield, Ice Axe, and Lesser Vigor (Mass), +1 other (two spells + Lesser Rod of Extend spell)
DR10/Evil, 2d12 +5 touch attacks, and your whole party having fast healing makes you better than almost any other 5th level figher/barbarian/warblade and you get to spam Close Wounds if the battle gets tough.

By the time you get 4th level spells and get full BAB, only the most optimized uber-chargers can keep up in terms of raw power while you still have all the options of being a Cleric and changing your spells to whatever suits the day.

[Darg]

The absolute max power build is Cloistered Cleric into Dwoermekeeper using Supernatural Spell limited wish to repeatedly awaken yourself for sky-high CHA

Bonuses from the same source don't stack...

[Lorddenorstrus]

Bonuses from the same source don't stack...

I mean.. if they have the same type. I don't believe Awaken types the bonuses. Untyped ie Misc stack from not being labeled. Another fun developer mistake really.

[Anthrowhale]

In addition to Rebel7284's suggestions, let me add a couple tricks.

If you take the spontaneous domain ACF with the strength domain then you can cast enlarge person multiple times/day. Making yourself large with a long spear gives you a 20' reach weapon that does 2d6 +str*1.5 damage. That's usually good for at least one attack of opportunity, and your backup morningstar also deals 2d6+str*1.5. Altogether, this rivals rage---it requires forewarning to cast, lasts about the same time, can be used multiple times/day, and the aoo you'll likely pick up is brutal at this level.

If you take the spontaneous domain ACF with the spell domain and southern magician, then you can also persist multiple arcane spells. For example wraithstrike (all attacks are touch attacks) and alter self[crucian] (natural armor+8). At mid-levels draconic polymorph[war troll] and greater mighty wallop (not persisted) are quite effective. This can be combined with the previous by having Io as a deity and using the Substitute Domain spell. (Io also has access to Travel, which also has great spells.) Using this technique, you can customize your fighter bonus feats using Heroics. At mid levels, you also gain access to Triadspell, which allows you to cast Heroics 3 times in a row. In addition, Mirror Move is easily persisted to give access to several fighter feats that you can see demonstrated.

In terms of persistable spells, Sun Scepter (L5) + Greater Might Wallop deals heavy damage. The divine magician ACF is also great at high levels through combining Starmantle and Mystic Shield.

W.r.t. more persistent spells, another approach is to reduce the costs. Dweomerkeeper combines well here providing -1 to cost. Easy Metamagic [Dragon #325] has -1 to cost. Polymorph[Tome Dragon] + Assume Supernatural Ability [Free Metamagic] gives -1 and eventually -2 to cost. Altogether, this reduces cost to 3 TUs. Note that Io provides access to Strength (for level 1 enlarge person), Spell (for arcane spells), and Magic (for DK qualification).

Yet another approach is to increase you charisma. A cloak of charisma, inner beauty, Greater Visage of the Deity, etc... adds quite a bit.

Aside from persistent spell, clerics also have some brutal combo spells. Consider for example Sense Weakness (= your next critical autoconfirms) and Surge of Fortune (=your next attack is an automatic 20) combined with a vorpal weapon. That kills great wyrm prismatic dragons.

[Khedrac]

Bonuses from the same source don't stack...


I mean.. if they have the same type. I don't believe Awaken types the bonuses. Untyped ie Misc stack from not being labeled. Another fun developer mistake really.

I think you will find that Darg is correct - the "Same source doesn't stack" rule applies regardless of type - the "type" stacking rules only apply to bonuses from different sources.

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).
You will need a specific rule quote allowing them to stack, "untyped" bonuses stacking is not relevant here.

[ciopo]

awaken is instantaneous , not an ongoing effect, if you make it not recastable on the same (valid!) target, you're essentially declaring that every spell with duration:instantaneous can be used exactly once per target. So everybody is more or less immune to every damage spell and every healing spell. A spell with duration:instantaneous that says " +1d3 cha" is functionalyl no different from one that says "heal 1d8 damage" or "take 3d6 damage"

there is no rule conflict, as disfunctional as it is

[Khedrac]

awaken is instantaneous , not an ongoing effect, if you make it not recastable on the same (valid!) target, you're essentially declaring that every spell with duration:instantaneous can be used exactly once per target. So everybody is more or less immune to every damage spell and every healing spell. A spell with duration:instantaneous that says " +1d3 cha" is functionalyl no different from one that says "heal 1d8 damage" or "take 3d6 damage"

there is no rule conflict, as disfunctional as it is
I didn't check the spells in question, I just looked at the word "bonus". I agree that virtually no instantaneous effect is described as a bonus making the text I quoted irrelevant.

[ciopo]

its supposed to be self-policing, since the target type changes from animal to magical beast, but then of course, shenanigans happens when you type-change yourself from humanoid to animal to become a valid target in the first place.

it's the GM job to just say no to (some) shenanigans! I find these quirks fun to think about and theorize around, but not something I'd try to pull at a table.

Awaken-chaining is fairly "clean", as far as "ahah, no" stuff goes

[RandomPeasant]

awaken is instantaneous , not an ongoing effect, if you make it not recastable on the same (valid!) target

This is correct. I'll give a brief rundown of how the loop works in case anyone doesn't understand. You're a Cleric/Dwoemerkeeper with the Spell and Magic domains. That gives you greater anyspell, limited wish, and Supernatural Spell. Use greater anyspell to prepare polymorph. Cast it to turn yourself into an animal, which changes your type to be Animal, making you a valid target for awaken. Use Supernatural Spell limited wish to emulate awaken (eligible because it is a 5th level Druid spell). Now do the same thing tomorrow. The limiting factor is actually that you're getting a bunch of bonus HD, meaning you can eventually no longer make the save to awaken yourself, but that can be gotten around with a source of level drain.


there is no rule conflict, as disfunctional as it is

I would quibble with "disfunctional" there. The combo is overpowered, but it's totally functional. Disfunctional should be reserved for things like the Monk not being proficient with unarmed strikes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Bonuses from the same source don't stack...They're not bonuses, though, else they would be marked as such. However, this means that the 3d6 for Int and Wis (and Cha for plants) replaces whatever was there before, whether the creature's originals (if any) or from another casting of awaken. The +1d3 Cha isn't earmarked as a bonus, either, and it's added on.

Awaken is best used with polymorph or aspect of the wolf to turn the subject into a plant (or animal), then Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower applied to it until you hit the maximum that Empower can grant you.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thanks for all the info everyone! Super good read. Doe anyone else have like build stubs or high-points from things like an Iron Chef, E6, etc challenge that they can link to on GitP? I would be interested to see what kind of numbers they pull (and also so that I can have a repertoire of powerful NPCs in the event that my campaigns get at that level of power).


Disfunctional should be reserved for things like the Monk not being proficient with unarmed strikes.

I don't think that you need "proficiency" with unarmed strikes, because I don't think they, themselves, are weapons. The entry in the PBH says that they are always considered light weapons, which would mean that they are something other than light weapons. I read that to mean that they are not weapons, but can be treated as weapons in certain circumstances.

[Darg]

Instantaneous effects are cumulative. Otherwise healing spells wouldn't work. However, bonuses are not when from the same source. The stacking rule for instantaneous effects has to do with the entire effect of the spell. Meanwhile, bonuses not stacking from the same source is something different altogether.

[Lilapop]

I would be interested to see what kind of numbers they pull

These are the two I mentioned earlier:
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Ork)
Hit Dice: 12+6d12+2d10+18 (89 hp, taken 6.5 twice, rolled 12+5+8+2+4+6)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +4 chainshirt, -1 aggressive, -1 vulnerable), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+15
Full Attack: Green axe +17/+12 melee (1d12+13, 20/x3, +19/+14 to confirm), or +18/+13 vs fire type creatures, or 19/x3 when charging or vs flat-footed targets, or 1d12+15 damage vs flat-footed targets, including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, water traits, ork traits
Saves: Fort +9 (don't automatically fail on natural 1), Ref +6, Will +7 (Con-based), +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +6, Grapple +15, Trip +6
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +8, Intimidate +27 (double-Strength-based), Jump +23, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +7, Swim +7 (or +15 to perform special action), Tumble +10; total ACP -1
Feats: Power attack, intimidating prowessFlaw, improved initiativeFlaw, cornugon smash, improved bull rushFighter, leap attack, shock trooperFighter, enduranceACF, steadfast determination
Alignment: True neutral

Stat Generation and Rules: Pointbuy 32 (16+4 14 14+2 14-2 12-2 8-2). Players can choose between fractional average HP (6.5 or 5.5 per level for a barbarian/fighter) and rolling for every individual levelup; this player chose average on level 2 and 3, and rolled afterwards.
Cornugon Smash: Pathfinder feat; demoralize on every hit using power attack.
ACFs: Fearsome gaze (replace cha to intimidate with str), hit-and-run fighter, wasteland bonus feat (endurance), streetfighter 7.
Leap Attack & Shock Trooper: Jump the last 10 ft of a charge, take the power attack penalty on AC instead of attack rolls, power attack returns with twohanded attacks are 1:3.
Miscellaneous Defenses: -2 saves vs spells/SLAs/SUs with fire type or from fire creatures, endurance.

Modified statistics while raging:
Hit Dice: 12+6d12+2d10+36 (107 hp)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +4 chainshirt, -1 aggressive, -1 vulnerable, -2 rage), touch 8, flat-footed 12
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Full Attack: Green axe +19/+14 melee (1d12+16, 20/x3, +21/+16 to confirm), or +20/+15 vs fire type creatures, or 19/x3 when charging or vs flat-footed targets, or 1d12+18 damage vs flat-footed targets, including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Saves: Fort +11 (don't automatically fail on natural 1), Ref +6, Will +11, +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +8, Grapple +17, Trip +8
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +10, Intimidate +31 (double-Strength-based), Jump +25, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +7, Swim +9 (or +15 to perform special action), Tumble –; total ACP -1

Possessions: Green axe (Pitspawned Ornate (intimidate) Razor sharp Baatorian green steel Masterwork Greataxe) with least crystal of life drinking, personalized dagger, masterwork chainshirt, ring of resistance +1, amulet of ram's might 2/day (never used in over 100 hours of play), anklet of translocation (houseruled to be a swift unprovoking manipulation action), heavy steel shield +1 with lesser clasp of acid protection, mask of mastery (not worn, I seriously do not understand this player sometimes), dolweave cloak, sun lenses, collection of potions that will never be used, potion belt, assorted adventurer's gear, bag of holding I with party's collective cash and the latest loot haul.
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Human)
Hit Dice: 8+7d8+1d6+45 (88 hp) plus 9 temporary HP
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft (good)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +7 mithril breastplate with magic vestment at CL 9, +2 natural, -1 vulnerable), touch 8, flat-footed 17
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+21
Full Attack: Pollaxe +24/+24/+19 melee (2d8+20, 20/x3), including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Cleric spells, destroy undead (22/day, 3d6, willHalf DC 14), turn undead (22/day), raven harrier (harry)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, aura of good (outsider 9, strong), speak with ravens
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +16, +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +12, Grapple +21, Trip +12
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 29, Cha 12
Skills: Concentration +15, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (local) +1, Knowledge (religion) +11, Knowledge (the planes) +2, Ride +2, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +4, Spot +7, Tumble -; total ACP -1
Feats: Militia, extra turning IFlaw, extend spellDomain, extra turning IIDomain, persistent spellHuman, divine metamagic (persistent spell)Flaw, favored prestige class (knight of the raven & concentration), skill focus (knowledge [religion])Item, prestigious spellcaster (knight of the raven I), extra turning III, extra turning IVItem
Alignment: Lawful good

Stat Generation and Rules: Pointbuy 30 (14 10 14 10 16 12). Fullcasters get less pointbuy budget at my table. Elene's first hit die is maximized, all others are average.
Persisted spells: Divine favor, divine power, lesser holy transformation, righteous might, righteous wrath of the faithful, mass conviction. None of these are shared with Snag.
Miscellaneous Defenses: Immunity to enchantment (charm) spells and effects, damage reduction 3/good.

Possessions: Masterwork pollaxe, +1 warning gauntlet, +1 pearl gauntlet, personalized dagger, sanctified mithril breastplate, heavy darkwood shield, reliquary holy symbol with +2 wisdom and +2 constitution, frog god's fane, assorted adventurer's gear, heward's handy haversack.
Without rage, Snag has higher touch AC, swim and initiative, can balance and tumble with 5+ ranks in each, and does not fail fort saves on nat 1s. With rage, they are even on touch AC and tumble, and he overtakes Elene in current max HP (but we all know how fleeting that can be). In both scenarios, Elene has flight, better saves (other than the nat 1 thing), higher AC, higher CMDs, more attacks, higher attack bonuses, higher base damage, higher damage bonus, and some damage reduction. Snag's situational bonuses on attack and damage do not make him catch up - other than streetfighter's critical threat range bonus, which is counteracted by x2 damage from diving attacks. He can also shocktrooper for another +18 +27 to damage, but it comes at a price. If he somehow acquires pounce, his average raging ubercharging damage is 99 (all hits no crits); her average damage from a stand-and-deliver full attack is 87.

It should be mentioned that Snag is behind the party average in networth, spent some of his networth unwisely, and a significant portion of the party networth is in unspent cash and unsold trash. I also happen to be the only member of this clique seriously nerdy about 3.x, so I tend to have better knowledge of optimization opportunities (and am in danger of becoming the perma-DM). I just don't have the numbers for my own frenzied zerker ready to post right now, mostly because that build's primary snapshot is level 11.

[Aracor]

I mean, probably the epitome of "taking advantage of persist spell" is Team Solars.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)

It's not strictly DMM, it takes advantage of an alternate form of Persistomancy (Incantatrix), but it's basically the highest optimization group I've personally seen written down short of Pun-Pun.

[AnimeTheCat]

These are the two I mentioned earlier:
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Ork)
Hit Dice: 12+6d12+2d10+18 (89 hp, taken 6.5 twice, rolled 12+5+8+2+4+6)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +4 chainshirt, -1 aggressive, -1 vulnerable), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+15
Full Attack: Green axe +17/+12 melee (1d12+13, 20/x3, +19/+14 to confirm), or +18/+13 vs fire type creatures, or 19/x3 when charging or vs flat-footed targets, or 1d12+15 damage vs flat-footed targets, including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, water traits, ork traits
Saves: Fort +9 (don't automatically fail on natural 1), Ref +6, Will +7 (Con-based), +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +6, Grapple +15, Trip +6
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +8, Intimidate +27 (double-Strength-based), Jump +23, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +7, Swim +7 (or +15 to perform special action), Tumble +10; total ACP -1
Feats: Power attack, intimidating prowessFlaw, improved initiativeFlaw, cornugon smash, improved bull rushFighter, leap attack, shock trooperFighter, enduranceACF, steadfast determination
Alignment: True neutral

Stat Generation and Rules: Pointbuy 32 (16+4 14 14+2 14-2 12-2 8-2). Players can choose between fractional average HP (6.5 or 5.5 per level for a barbarian/fighter) and rolling for every individual levelup; this player chose average on level 2 and 3, and rolled afterwards.
Cornugon Smash: Pathfinder feat; demoralize on every hit using power attack.
ACFs: Fearsome gaze (replace cha to intimidate with str), hit-and-run fighter, wasteland bonus feat (endurance), streetfighter 7.
Leap Attack & Shock Trooper: Jump the last 10 ft of a charge, take the power attack penalty on AC instead of attack rolls, power attack returns with twohanded attacks are 1:3.
Miscellaneous Defenses: -2 saves vs spells/SLAs/SUs with fire type or from fire creatures, endurance.

Modified statistics while raging:
Hit Dice: 12+6d12+2d10+36 (107 hp)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +4 chainshirt, -1 aggressive, -1 vulnerable, -2 rage), touch 8, flat-footed 12
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Full Attack: Green axe +19/+14 melee (1d12+16, 20/x3, +21/+16 to confirm), or +20/+15 vs fire type creatures, or 19/x3 when charging or vs flat-footed targets, or 1d12+18 damage vs flat-footed targets, including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Saves: Fort +11 (don't automatically fail on natural 1), Ref +6, Will +11, +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +8, Grapple +17, Trip +8
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +10, Intimidate +31 (double-Strength-based), Jump +25, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +7, Swim +9 (or +15 to perform special action), Tumble –; total ACP -1

Possessions: Green axe (Pitspawned Ornate (intimidate) Razor sharp Baatorian green steel Masterwork Greataxe) with least crystal of life drinking, personalized dagger, masterwork chainshirt, ring of resistance +1, amulet of ram's might 2/day (never used in over 100 hours of play), anklet of translocation (houseruled to be a swift unprovoking manipulation action), heavy stel shield +1 with lesser clasp of acid protection, mask of mastery (not worn, I seriously do not understand this player sometimes), dolweave cloak, sun lenses, collection of potions that will never be used, potion belt, assorted adventurer's gear, bag of holding I with party's collective cash and the latest loot haul.
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Human)
Hit Dice: 8+7d8+1d6+45 (88 hp) plus 9 temporary HP
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft (good)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +7 mithril breastplate with magic vestment at CL 9, +2 natural, -1 vulnerable), touch 8, flat-footed 17
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+21
Full Attack: Pollaxe +24/+24/+19 melee (2d8+20, 20/x3), including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Cleric spells, destroy undead (22/day, 3d6, willHalf DC 14), turn undead (22/day), raven harrier (harry)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, aura of good (outsider 9, strong), speak with ravens
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +8, Will +16, +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +12, Grapple +21, Trip +12
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 29, Cha 12
Skills: Concentration +15, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (local) +1, Knowledge (religion) +11, Knowledge (the planes) +2, Ride +2, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +4, Spot +7, Tumble -; total ACP -1
Feats: Militia, extra turning IFlaw, extend spellDomain, extra turning IIDomain, persistent spellHuman, divine metamagic (persistent spell)Flaw, favored prestige class (knight of the raven & concentration), skill focus (knowledge [religion])Item, prestigious spellcaster (knight of the raven I), extra turning III, extra turning IVItem
Alignment: Lawful good

Stat Generation and Rules: Pointbuy 30 (14 10 14 10 16 12). Fullcasters get less pointbuy budget at my table. Elene's first hit die is maximized, all others are average.
Persisted spells: Divine favor, divine power, lesser holy transformation, righteous might, righteous wrath of the faithful, mass conviction. None of these are shared with Snag.
Miscellaneous Defenses: Immunity to enchantment (charm) spells and effects, damage reduction 3/good.

Possessions: Masterwork pollaxe, +1 warning gauntlet, +1 pearl gauntlet, personalized dagger, sanctified mithril breastplate, heavy darkwood shield, reliquary holy symbol with +2 wisdom and +2 constitution, frog god's fane, assorted adventurer's gear, heward's handy haversack.
Without rage, Snag has higher touch AC, swim and initiative, can balance and tumble with 5+ ranks in each, and does not fail fort saves on nat 1s. With rage, they are even on touch AC and tumble, and he overtakes Elene in current max HP (but we all know how fleeting that can be). In both scenarios, Elene hase flight, better saves (other than the nat 1 thing), higher AC, higher CMDs, more attacks, higher attack bonuses, higher base damage, higher damage bonus, and some damage reduction. Snag's situational bonuses on attack and damage do not make him catch up - other than streetfighter's critical threat range bonus, which is counteracted by x2 damage from diving attacks. He can also shocktrooper for another +18 to damage, but it comes at a price.

It should be mentioned that Snag is behind the party average in networth, spent some of his networth unwisely, and a significant portion of the party networth is in unspent cash and unsold trash. I also happen to be the only member of this clique seriously nerdy about 3.x, so I tend to have better knowledge of optimization opportunities (and am in danger of becoming the perma-DM). I just don't have the numbers for my own frenzied zerker ready to post right now, mostly because that build's primary snapshot is level 11.

I'll respond later with more thoughts, bit that doesn't look too insanely impressive. You did say it wasn't necessarily optimized, and I can totally see that. As far as comparison though... this just looks like optimization vs no-optimization more than anything. And as far as gear goes, snag isn't just under value in net worth, he's also just not got much in the way of any ideal item. There's no magic weapons, armors, save boosters, ability score boosters, etc at all.

[Lilapop]

And as far as gear goes, snag isn't just under value in net worth, he's also just not got much in the way of any ideal item. There's no magic weapons, armors, save boosters, ability score boosters, etc at all.
True. Even though I think you are underestimating that axe, and they are both using nonmagical weapons and armor with GMW/MV for +2.

Actually, to better fit the premise of your thread, let's give him a shirt of continuous Savage Species lion's charge, +2 strength and +2 con items, a +1 on his chainshirt and a +1 deflection ring. That would actually put him over budget, but we can attribute that to his potions.

Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Ork)
Hit Dice: 12+6d12+2d10+27 (98 hp, taken 6.5 twice, rolled 12+5+8+2+4+6)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +5 chainshirt, +1 deflection, -1 aggressive, -1 vulnerable), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+16
Full Attack: Green axe +18/+13 melee (1d12+14, 20/x3, +20/+15 to confirm), or +19/+14 vs fire type creatures, or 19/x3 when charging or vs flat-footed targets, or 1d12+16 damage vs flat-footed targets, including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, water traits, ork traits
Saves: Fort +10 (don't automatically fail on natural 1), Ref +6, Will +8 (Con-based), +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +7, Grapple +16, Trip +7
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +9, Intimidate +29 (double-Strength-based), Jump +24, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +7, Swim +8 (or +16 to perform special action), Tumble +10; total ACP -1
Feats: Power attack, intimidating prowessFlaw, improved initiativeFlaw, cornugon smash, improved bull rushFighter, leap attack, shock trooperFighter, enduranceACF, steadfast determination
Alignment: True neutral

Modified statistics while raging:
Hit Dice: 12+6d12+2d10+45 (116 hp)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +5 chainshirt, +1 deflection, -1 aggressive, -1 vulnerable, -2 rage), touch 9, flat-footed 14
Base attack/Grapple: +9/+18
Full Attack: Green axe +20/+15 melee (1d12+17, 20/x3, +22/+17 to confirm), or +21/+16 vs fire type creatures, or 19/x3 when charging or vs flat-footed targets, or 1d12+19 damage vs flat-footed targets, including greater magic weapon at CL 9 (granting +2)
Saves: Fort +12 (don't automatically fail on natural 1), Ref +6, Will +12, +9 against Intimidate
CMD: Bullrush +9, Grapple +18, Trip +9
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +8, Climb +11, Intimidate +33 (double-Strength-based), Jump +26, Knowledge (local) +3, Listen +7, Swim +10 (or +16 to perform special action), Tumble –; total ACP -1
Average ubercharging damage while raging, all hits no crits, is now 101. He is always winning on HP, if only by a small margin, and his non-raging, non-ubercharging AC can start dreaming of not being a lost cause.


More importantly, just keeping up would be good enough to be a better contributor to party success, because above and beyond her frontlining and whacking capacity she is still a tier 1 caster: dispel magic, wand of lesser vigor, restoration, raise dead, planar ally, summon monster (sadly, no spiders), zone of truth, detect magic, identify, lore of the gods, surge of fortune, protection from alignment, scrying, remove curse, create food and water... from the convenient to the gamebreaking, its all still there. Sure, she only has the domain slot left on 5th, but that domain spell could be true seeing. Thats kind of the point people are making when they say they'd rather have a clericzilla as frontliner.

[RandomPeasant]

More importantly, just keeping up would be good enough to be a better contributor to party success, because above and beyond her frontlining and whacking capacity she is still a tier 1 caster: dispel magic, wand of lesser vigor, restoration, raise dead, planar ally, summon monster (sadly, no spiders), zone of truth, detect magic, identify, lore of the gods, surge of fortune, protection from alignment, scrying, remove curse, create food and water... from the convenient to the gamebreaking, its all still there. Sure, she only has the domain slot left on 5th, but that domain spell could be true seeing. Thats kind of the point people are making when they say they'd rather have a clericzilla as frontliner.

That's exactly the issue. Maybe at equivalent optimization, an Ubercharger deals more raw damage (though I'm unpersuaded about the degree to which that makes him a better frontliner). But the Cleric is still good enough at frontlining, and can see the future and summon angels.

[Anthrowhale]

Here's an attempt to create a clericzilla.

At level 1, something like a barbarian except that you have fewer hit points, can heal, and use enlarge person instead of rage.

L1 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge]
Str 16/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 8/Wis 14/Cha 14
Human: Combat Reflexes
L1: Improved Initiative
5 Turn Undeads.
80gp out of 125 gp = Longspear (5gp), Morningstar (5gp), Light Crossbow (35gp), 30 bolts (3gp), Studded leather (25gp), Heavy Wood Shield (7gp)
Initiative: +6
AC: 15
Spells: 3/2+1
Enlarged Longspear or Morningstar: +3 attack, 2d6+6 damage


At level 6, persistent spells have begun to come online, but the second iterative has not. An average of 25 damage with a touch attack and AC:No is a solid frontliner.

L6 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Spell or Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion]
Human: Extend Spell
L1: Persistent Spell
L3: DMM[Persistent Spell]
L6: Southern Magician
7=5+2(Reliquary Holy Symbol) Turn Undeads
1 persistent spell/day
<13k gp = Reliquary Holy Symbol(1k gp), Lesser Rod of Extend Spell(3k gp), Mithril Reinforced Chain Shirt (1k gp), Masterwork Chahar-Aina (225 gp), Masterwork dastana (175 gp), Item+2 Wis(4k gp), Psychic Reformation
Initiative: +2
AC: 27
Spells: 5/4+1/4+1/3+1
Extended Persistent Alter Self[Crucian], Extended Persistent Ice Axe, Extended Heroics[Power Attack], Divine Insight x3, Sense Weakness x1
Enlarged Longspear: +5(=+3 base +4 Str -1 size +2 knowledge devotion -3 power attack) touch attack, 2d12+14 (=+6 spell, +2 knowledge Devotion, +6 power attack) damage


At level 12 the cleric has blown through anything resembling balance with 4 touch attacks dealing an expected 300+ damage that brutalizes the monsters.

L12 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Spell or Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion]
Human: Extend Spell
L1: Persistent Spell
L3: DMM[Persistent Spell]
L6: Southern Magician
L9: Extra Turning
L12: Extra Turning
21=5+2(Reliquary Holy Symbol)+4(Nightstick)+2(Eagle's Splendor)+8(Extra Turning) Turn Undeads
3 persistent spells/day
<88k gp = Reliquary Holy Symbol(1k gp), 2x Lesser Rod of Extend Spell(6k gp), Nightstick (7k gp), Rod of Extend Spell(11K), Mithril Reinforced Chain Shirt (1k gp), Masterwork Chahar-Aina (225 gp), Masterwork dastana (175 gp), Item+4 Wis(16K), Bead of Karma (20k gp)

Initiative: +8
AC: 37
Spells: 6/6+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1
Extended Persistent Draconic Polymorph[War Troll], Extended Persistent Sun Scepter
Extended Persistent Divine Power, Extended Persistent Lesser Holy Transformation
Extended Persistent Righteous Might, Extended Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

Extended Greater Mighty Wallop, Extendeded Greater Magic Weapon, Extended Magic Vestment
Extended Heroics[Power Attack], Extended Heroics[Combat Reflexes], Extended Heorics[Improved Initiative]
Extended Girallon's Blessing, Extended Fuse Arms

Divine Insight x3, Sense Weakness, Surge of Fortune

Strength 57=31(War Troll)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+6(Enhance)+4(Fuse Arms)+8(Righteous Might)

Colossal Sun Scepter: +29/+29/+24/+19 (=+12 base +23 Str -1 size +3 knowledge devotion +4 enhance -12 power attack) touch attack, 8d6+65 (=+34 Str, +3 knowledge Devotion, +4 enhance, +24 power attack) +Disruption +Flaming Burst +Axiomatic damage +Dazing Blow (DC 27)


By level 20, you are dealing 130 damage/hit with 5 attacks/round against flatfooted touch ACs for 600+ damage/round. That's before you pull out a vorpal blade and Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune for infinite damage against single-headed opponents.

L20 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Spell or Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion]
Human: Extend Spell
L1: Persistent Spell
L3: DMM[Persistent Spell]
L6: Southern Magician
L9: Extra Turning
L12: Extra Turning
L15: Assume Supernatural Ability[Free Metamagic]
L18: Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
24=5+2(Reliquary Holy Symbol)+4(Nightstick)+3(enhance)+2(Inner Beauty)+8(Extra Turning) Turn Undeads
6 persistent spells/day

<760k gp = Reliquary Holy Symbol(1k gp), 2x Lesser Rod of Extend Spell(6k gp), Nightstick (7k), Rod of Extend Spell(11K), Mithril Reinforced Chain Shirt (1k), Masterwork Chahar-Aina (225), Masterwork dastana (175), Item+6 Wis(36K), Item+6 Cha(36k), Bead of Karma (20k), Animated Shield+1(16k), Str+5(inherent), item+6 Con(36K)

Initiative: +8
AC: 52
Spells: 6/6+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1
Extended Persistent Draconic Polymorph[War Troll], Extended Persistent Sun Scepter
Extended Persistent Divine Power, Extended Persistent Elation
Extended Persistent Divine Favor, Extended Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Extended Persistent Holy Star, Extended Persistent Greater Visage of the Deity
Extended Persistent Greater Blink, Extended Persistent Miracle[Bite of the Werebear]
Extended Persistent Holy Transformation, Extended Persistent Righteous Might

Extended Greater Mighty Wallop, Extendeded Greater Magic Weapon, 2x Extended Magic Vestment
Extended Heroics[Power Attack], Extended Heroics[Combat Reflexes], Extended Heorics[Improved Initiative]
Extended Girallon's Blessing, Extended Fuse Arms

Divine Insight, Sense Weakness, Surge of Fortune

Strength 80=31(War Troll)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+16(Enhance)+4(Fuse Arms)+8(Righteous Might)+4(GVotD)+4(Holy Transformation)+5(inherent)

Colossal Sun Scepter: +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (=+20 base +35 Str -1 size +5 knowledge devotion +5 enhance -20 power attack) touch attack, 8d6+102 (=+52 Str, +5 knowledge Devotion, +5 enhance, +40 power attack) +Disruption +Flaming Burst +Axiomatic damage +Dazing Blow (DC 32)


This is only moderately optimized, but this seems sufficient to illustrate the point. Clerics usually aren't optimized for damage, because they can do many other useful things instead.

[Akal Saris]

One thing that bugs me is that I've frequently seen clerics recommended as archers, but unless you're playing with flaws (for more feats) it's actually pretty hard to make a decent cleric archer compared with melee cleric builds.

A melee cleric needs just one feat, power attack, and a source for a martial weapon (racial, PrC-granted proficiencies, war domain, etc.), and is going to be 'OK' from 1-6 and a beast from 7 onwards. Meanwhile an archer cleric generally is going to want point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and probably zen archery, so it's quite hard to fit in the 'basic' archery feats when also doing a DMM build.

Below is a sample cleric archer build, for reference/discussion (I was working on archery builds yesterday for fun):

Elf Cloistered Cleric 10/Contemplative 10
(Note: For players in Forgotten Realms where you must choose a deity, Labelas Enorath (Elven deity of time and magic) works well as a patron that could feasibly grant the Planning and Elf domains)
Domains: Planning, Elf, [trade Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion feat, per Complete Champion)] The Undeath domain is arguably better for the build, but I find it a bit cheesy to channel positive energy and have the undeath domain, and you'd end up burning a feat on point blank shot either way.

Feats:
1: Point blank shot [domain]
1: Extend spell [domain]
1: knowledge devotion [trade Cloistered Cleric's Knowledge domain for feat, per Complete Champion]
1: Persist spell
3: DMM: Persist
6: Extra Turning
9: Quicken Spell
12: Zen Archer
15: Rapid Shot
18: Holy Warrior
(gets Precise through a +1 weapon ability)

Obviously builds will differ by game based on the PrCs you might want to enter, the presence/absence of gear like Nightsticks, etc., but I think the build above gives a good idea of how crowded the feat competition is for a cleric archer.

I'll note that I've never played a 'real' clericzilla in practice. I've played a warpriest in PF though, which has a similar 'stack buffs and become a combat god' feel to it :P

[RandomPeasant]

It depends on your level of optimization. It's true if you're taking all those feats, it digs into your feat slots a lot (though I would point out that you have Quicken Spell, and that Extra Turning is only really necessary if you don't have Nightsticks). But the best Cleric Archer build is a Dweomerkeeper with the Spell Domain, meaning you can pick anyspell as part of your Mantle of Spells and pop all the [Combat] feats you want out of low-level spell slots. There's definitely a case to be made for the melee build, but it has more to do with the wider range of melee buffs than any major feat advantage. Personally, I think the ability to stand behind a wall of undead more than mitigates the reduced damage output.

[Akal Saris]

Yeah, I personally hate relying on nightsticks when planning a cleric character build, since (a) I personally don't think they should stack with each other based on a typical reading of the rules for magic items, and (b) most 'actual' games I've played in have had very few opportunities to obtain relatively obscure magical items, let alone multiple of them, so I tend to mistrust any character builds that rely overmuch on a specific magical item to function well. So I prefer to plan a persist build to have 7 or 14 TU uses without nightsticks, and then if nightsticks are available, then great! In that context, Quicken still has value to enable low-level buffs like divine favor, or for non-persistable spells like spiritual weapon.

So your preferred build is Dweomerkeeper and choosing Anyspell, using it to emulate Heroics, and then extend/persist a few Heroics spells? That seems like a solid approach to avoid the feat crunch for the ranged build. From 12 onwards even just an extended Heroics would last for 4 hours, which is pretty solid, and 3rd level spell slots aren't a huge deal for most clerics.

Yup, the wider range of melee buffs like Righteous Might and Bite of the Werebear are also good reasons to go for melee builds!

[RandomPeasant]

Yeah, I personally hate relying on nightsticks when planning a cleric character build, since (a) I personally don't think they should stack with each other based on a typical reading of the rules for magic items, and (b) most 'actual' games I've played in have had very few opportunities to obtain relatively obscure magical items, let alone multiple of them, so I tend to mistrust any character builds that rely overmuch on a specific magical item to function well.

That's exactly the sort of thing I was talking about when I said that optimal builds will vary tremendously with the optimization ceiling. Do Nightsticks stack? Are they freely available? Can turning from a domain fuel DMM? All of those are questions that influence the power of this type of build tremendously.


In that context, Quicken still has value to enable low-level buffs like divine favor, or for non-persistable spells like spiritual weapon.

But your build doesn't end up with DMM: Quicken. I'm skeptical that you're getting enough value out of divine favor to justify the 5th level spell slot, even if it isn't taking a standard action to cast.


So your preferred build is Dweomerkeeper and choosing Anyspell, using it to emulate Heroics, and then extend/persist a few Heroics spells? That seems like a solid approach to avoid the feat crunch for the ranged build. From 12 onwards even just an extended Heroics would last for 4 hours, which is pretty solid, and 3rd level spell slots aren't a huge deal for most clerics.

Well, again, I would shy away from "preferred". There are vanishingly few games where the all-out Dweomerkeeper build is appropriate, and in games at that power level I'd probably play something that's more of a traditional spellcaster instead, but that is the general idea. You can also stack Illumian's Aeshkrau sigil on top of everything else to turn your boosted-up STR score into a massive number of bonus spells (you can hit a STR score of something over a 100 with enough buffs, and that's ignoring greater consumptive field silliness).

[RNightstalker]

I think you will find that Darg is correct - the "Same source doesn't stack" rule applies regardless of type - the "type" stacking rules only apply to bonuses from different sources.
You will need a specific rule quote allowing them to stack, "untyped" bonuses stacking is not relevant here.

Quick side note: this is good stuff and I wish more people realized it.



Aside from persistent spell, clerics also have some brutal combo spells. Consider for example Sense Weakness (= your next critical autoconfirms) and Surge of Fortune (=your next attack is an automatic 20) combined with a vorpal weapon. That kills great wyrm prismatic dragons.

That is a nasty combo...thanks for bringing it to my attention:biggrin:


A different thread, that got derailed from the OP

Sometimes you need to do a standard disclaimer on a post: "I'm optimizing a fighter because I want to play a fighter...those that would ask why or try to tell me why it's the worst class in 3.x need not apply reply."

That being said, Radiant Servant of Pelor is also a PrC that grants extra domains, and Superior Resistance is another spell candidate that I didn't see posted that will prevent needing to buy an item for a resistance bonus to saving throws.

[RandomPeasant]

People are probably not mentioning superior resistance because it's a generically good Cleric spell that doesn't really have anything to do with what a Cleric Archer does. It's duration is already 24 hours, so every Cleric is going to use any 6th level slots that aren't otherwise spoken for it, regardless of whether they are a DMM self-buffer, a necromancy-based minionmancer, or a straight caster Cleric.

[RNightstalker]

It's duration is already 24 hours,

Thanks for the reminder, it was always cast for me, not by my player lol.

[Rebel7284]

One thing that bugs me is that I've frequently seen clerics recommended as archers, but unless you're playing with flaws (for more feats) it's actually pretty hard to make a decent cleric archer compared with melee cleric builds.

This is true, but note that it's true regardless of HOW you try to build your archer since archery in 3.5 takes such a huge investment in build resources. Clerics tend to do it better, since Clerics also have 9th level spells to fall back on.

The best archer in high-OP games is probably Archivist because it can more easily do stuff like this: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617695-Arrowsplit-optimization

[RandomPeasant]

The term Cleric Archer is historical. The original "Cleric that out-fights a Fighter" (from back in the 3.0 days) was formulated as an archer. I'd try to find the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it was on the old WotC boards, and is long gone.

[Lans]

The term Cleric Archer is historical. The original "Cleric that out-fights a Fighter" (from back in the 3.0 days) was formulated as an archer. I'd try to find the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it was on the old WotC boards, and is long gone.

They nerfed divine favor, rightous might and persistent spell.

[Akal Saris]

The term Cleric Archer is historical. The original "Cleric that out-fights a Fighter" (from back in the 3.0 days) was formulated as an archer. I'd try to find the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it was on the old WotC boards, and is long gone.

Interesting, I didn't know that!

By the way, I saw your responses to my comments earlier, all of which were good points. Personally, I really like making sure that any build I play takes advantage of swift actions as much as possible, so I may over-value quicken spell simply because it fits my playstyle well.