Would you allow a Linnorm bloodline on a sorcerer?

[Boci]

So looking over the 3rd party, fan-made Linnorm sorceror bloodline:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/paizo-fans-united-wayfinder-magazine/linnorm-bloodline/

to the official draconic bloodline:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline/


It seems the Linnorm is better in almost every way. The spells list is maybe a wash with a few repeats and stuff like resist energy vs. see invisibility or fear vs. bestow curse where neither seems obviously superior, (campaign and play style dependent though of course). Draconic bloodline almost certainly has the better bloodline arcana, with the reliably +1 damage per die vs. the much more fiddly linnorm one that requires you to be damaged and the opponent to fail a will save to gain vulnerability, though this second one certainly has a higher ceiling, since the vulnerability could benefit other party member too, and with a duration in a round of half your sorcerer levels it will quickly start lastly for most of / the whole fight.

And everything else just seems to either be the same or a strict upgrade. The 1st level power if different enough that you can argue its not that simple, linnorm sorcerers may struggle at lower levels when their spells run out since their early powers offer no offensive capabilities like draconic claws, but those very quickly fall off, whilst the linnorm's instead get very good, only becoming better and better as they reach levels where no sorceror is commonly using their 1st level bloodline power. Draconic does have a not insignificant advantage in that they have so many more element to choose from, whilst linnorm are stuck with 3 (acid, cold, fire).

As for 3rd party sloppiness, its there. Linnorm bloodline bonus feat options are "skill focus (knowledge), whilst the draconic one specified knowledge (arcana) only. The blindsense they gain at level 11 has no listed range, the rider effects of the breath weapon can be a bit unclear, fire notes that "The magma created by this breath weapon hardens to a thin layer of stone that degrades to a fine powder over several hours." which sounds like its meant to have a mechanical effect, but apparently doesn't and is just fluff? And creatures who take damage from the cold breath "are held motionless" for 2 rounds, doesn't say what motionless is. Sound like it could be dazed or paralyzed, but for balance is (or should be) "speed reduced to 0".

So yeah, can't say this feels like the greatest design ever, but I really, really prefer the Linnorm bloodline. I find a sorcerer focused on curses and divination (and a bit of blasting) much more fun than draconic's mostly just blasting, and the boosted senses of the first level power also sound really fun to have on a character.

So, if you were a DM, would you allow this bloodline? As written, with some changes, not at all?

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say it's largely a wash, because the L15/20 abilities just aren't going to matter in most campaigns, the L9 breath weapons frankly both suck (compared to the spells at that level), and draconic claws are pretty useless, linnorm senses are good but hardly overpowered. And the draconic spells are generally better.

So, leaning towards yes. I would, however, rule that the linnorm bloodline arcana costs an immediate action.

[Rynjin]

Linnorm Bloodline arcana is complete trash, borderline unusable, so I see little reason anyone would take it over the Draconic Bloodline which is going to be better for a blaster in 99.99% of situations.

Remember that Bloodline powers are...largely irrelevant, pretty much. The Arcana is the only thing that REALLY matters, unless the 1/3/9 abilities are particularly bonkers, which these aren't. Special senses are nice and all, but as a Sorcerer you can just casually get Blindsight for a spellslot anyway, so it's not a big deal.

I'd lean towards disallowing it just for the jank wording alone, unless a player was like SUPER attached to it and couldn't just take the already better Draconic Bloodline and fluff it differently. There's enough great 3PP material out there that I don't really feel the need to allow the less great stuff if I'm going to have to rewrite it.

[Asmotherion]

If it was not interfearing with the cannon in the world we're playing, I wouldn't mind it.

[Xei_Win_Toh]

Linnorm already is a 1st-party wildblooded variant for the regular Draconic bloodline. So I wouldn't allow this one.

[Kurald Galain]

Linnorm Bloodline arcana is complete trash
How's that? Seems like an easy +50% damage on most of your spells.


as a Sorcerer you can just casually get Blindsight for a spellslot anyway
But not at level 1. Free darkvision and scent and a perception bonus at level 1 is hardly overpowering, but it's certainly useful (and better than the claws the draconic bloodline gets).

[Arkhios]

Linnorm already is a 1st-party wildblooded variant for the regular Draconic bloodline. So I wouldn't allow this one.

To clarify this, since the Wildblooded is an official archetype for sorcerers, there is already an official Linnorm Bloodline, and so it's rather redundant to even suggest a 3rd party Linnorm bloodline.

[Rynjin]

How's that? Seems like an easy +50% damage on most of your spells.

Tanking damage as a character with d6s is easy?

Like I guess you COULD build yourself as a meat-Sorcerer so you can occasionally get 50% extra damage against one target (I just realized it also has a save, so it's double trash)...or you could do an Orc/Draconic Crossblood and toss Blood Havoc on top instead of the terrible claw ability and get roughly 50% additional damage with no restrictions on use, against all targets of the spell.

Darkvision and Scent is admittedly nice, I'm a sucker for special senses, I'm just comparing the Blindsense it gives you later with just casting Echolocation instead.

[Boci]

Interesting mix of opinions then. Some yeses, some nos, only a single minor tweak so far.


Linnorm already is a 1st-party wildblooded variant for the regular Draconic bloodline. So I wouldn't allow this one.


To clarify this, since the Wildblooded is an official archetype for sorcerers, there is already an official Linnorm Bloodline, and so it's rather redundant to even suggest a 3rd party Linnorm bloodline.

Okay, but I don't like the the wildblooded. I like sorcerers and I like dragons, but I don't like blasting. The 3rd party Linnorm allows me to play a draconic-themed sorcerer who focuses on divination with a side order of cursing, which sounds really fun, and the 1st party wildblooded wouldn't let me do. So I don't know how "redundant" giving extra options are. Especially for dragons, who seems lore-wise diverse enough a few ways for their blood to manifest. Pharasma has a Dragon God working for her whose is charged with finding out the secrets of a soul so she can accurately judge them, so it certainly seems that a divination theme for dragons is fitting.



If it was not interfearing with the cannon in the world we're playing, I wouldn't mind it.

As in, if linnorms don't exist in your world?


So, leaning towards yes. I would, however, rule that the linnorm bloodline arcana costs an immediate action.

That would certainly be acceptable to me, and its a little interesting that others regard that aspect as trash and borderline unusable.

One thing I feel maybe warrants a second look is the breath weapons. 1d6 / level in an area effect is not terrible, and they're supernatural, so no SR, AoO or concentration. And finally, whilst the fire and acid rider effects are two flavours of "meh", the cold one freezes targets motionless when they take damage from it. Its ref / half, so even if they succeed the save, without evasion or decent resistance, they're still taking some damage. Its hard to imagine "are held motionless" as being anything less severe than reducing their speed to 0, which will affect a variety of enemies.


I'd lean towards disallowing it just for the jank wording alone, unless a player was like SUPER attached to it and couldn't just take the already better Draconic Bloodline and fluff it differently. There's enough great 3PP material out there that I don't really feel the need to allow the less great stuff if I'm going to have to rewrite it.

That is fair. Any issues with wording that I didn't cover in the opening post? Though "just play the draconic bloodline" doesn't help me if I like dragon-themed sorcerers who focus on divination and curses rather than blasting.

[Kurald Galain]

That would certainly be acceptable to me, and its a little interesting that others regard that aspect as trash and borderline unusable.
The key is that just because you shouldn't be tanking full attacks from melee enemies doesn't mean you'll never take damage.


1d6 / level in an area effect is not terrible, and they're supernatural, so no SR, AoO or concentration.
It's not terrible, but the general idea is that blasting spells need a damage boost to be effective in the first place (e.g. Empowered Fireball with +1 to all dice). That said, immobilize with no save is certainly a good option (although I'd chalk it up to poor wording, and the intent is probably to immobilize only on a failed save).

[Boci]

The key is that just because you shouldn't be tanking full attacks from melee enemies doesn't mean you'll never take damage.

Yeah, I feel I'm probably happy as a sorcerer if I'm never taking damage, even if it means the bloodline arcana isn't going off. And I do regularly finish the fights at full health, that means I can provoke an attack of opportunity from a monster that is stubbornly refusing to attack me to try and curse it.


It's not terrible, but the general idea is that blasting spells need a damage boost to be effective in the first place (e.g. Empowered Fireball with +1 to all dice). That said, immobilize with no save is certainly a good option (although I'd chalk it up to poor wording, and the intent is probably to immobilize only on a failed save).

Possibly? There are examples of poor wording, but its from Pathfinder Fans Unite, they clearly know the basics of the rules, and I would expect them to at least understand the difference between "On a failed save" and "those who take damage from", but then I'd also expect them to know that "held motionless" isn't actual mechanics, so yeah, definitely not impossible.

I also wonder what the intended rider effects of the fire/magma one was. Maybe difficult terrain that also deals 1d6 fire damage? Not too useful in a line, but its something.

[Asmotherion]

As in, if linnorms don't exist in your world?



Preciesly. If we're playing in Golarion or in a world were Linnorms are a thing, I see no reason to ban it, as long as we allow 3rd party material. I find it overall weaker than the Regular Dragon Sorcerer, so there's that.

[Rynjin]

The key is that just because you shouldn't be tanking full attacks from melee enemies doesn't mean you'll never take damage.

On the flipside, relying on your backliner taking damage to get their damage boost is EXTREMELY iffy.

It's so many restrictions on the damage it's kind of insane. First, you have to take damage. Then they have to fail their save. Then you have to direct a spell at that exact target, rather than one who might be a priority (in the case of a single target spell), or deal extra damage to a target who may not matter all that much (in the case of an AoE).

It's so many hoops to jump through for so little gain.

[Psyren]

That arcana is weird. As written, they have to save every time they hit you, and if they succeed just once it negates all the previous failures because they then become immune to the entire curse for 24 hours. So if you do successfully curse someone, their best course of action is to keep hitting you. Adding an immediate action cost to it would actually buff the ability.

[Boci]

Okay so, some people don't like because they find the draconic bloodline sufficient (though I mentioned I think that overlooks that this bloodline offers a very different playstyle for the sorceror). Some people are leaning towards not allowing it for slopping wording, which is fair, there is a lot of issues with it. I covered some in my post, and psyren highlights a relevant one too with the curse and multiple saves.

No one seems to think its overpowered though, which was my initial assessment, and my friends. I guess we were focused too much on the last 2 bloodline arcana abilities, which are strict upgrades, but Kurald Galain was right, most games don't go that high. That or linnorms use Kurald Galain magic and so thy're biased on the issue, which I concede is a possibility.

But, I do like the bloodline still, and I would enjoy playing it as a character. Its nice to know at least some DMs would consider it. Now if I were DMing I could see myself using it for an NPC. So if i did that, I'd need to fix:

Specify they can only take knowledge (arcana) for the bloodline skill focus feat options
Wording on the curse to prevent creature who failed their name from continuing to attack to then become immune
Specify range of blindsense (likely 30ft)
Fix fire breath so it has a half way decent rider effect, clarify that the cold breath only immobilizes on a failed save to bring it in line with the other breath weapons (and specify motionless is just 0 speed, nothing most)
And bonus options, add a lightning breath weapon, since I believe there are now lightning breathing linnorms too

Did I miss anything?