Pro-Rahadoum/Misothiest Campaign

[Blind_Prophet]

There's not too much info about rahadoum and the only two modules i found (Port Godless & Heresy of Man) seem anti-rahadoum, what I do know is:

- Religions/Gods/Worship is straight up illegal caused by a massive religious war roughly 2000 years ago

- Despite the above a small amount of people still worship in secret

- Slavery is legal (planning to nix this since were currently playing hells vengeance and i'd rather not have that theme repeated)

- Outsiders/Dieities tend to use rahadoum as a "neutral ground" often causing issues such as having invisible fights

- Governed by the "Laws of Morality" but beyond "No gods" none of these laws have been stated by paizo

- Pirates from the shackles cause troubles alot especially with shipping goods south

- Shipping goods north is also an issue due to cheliax and their control of aroden's arch

- it's a haven for scientists, philosophers and other intellectuals


All that said my starting "hook" for the campaign will be something along the lines hunting down some secret religious sects and eventually meeting an outsider who tried to find a diety to follow but looked to closely and found out that regardless of alignment the gods of golarion are all pretty ****ed up (ie. Erastil punishes people by turning them into animals to be slaughtered, Cayden is a stalker, etc. etc.) so fled to rahadoum as the only place free of religion (as far as i know), eventually leading to the party trying to spread ragadoums way of doing things, possibly even running the dieties out of golarion (one idea is gaining control of the astral plane to prevent travel between the outer and material relam)

Note: This campaign won't be canon even for my home game its just a little fun for my players and a campaign type ive always wanted to play or DM so I don't mind bending the lore (ie. exaggerating the dieties faults)

So yeah anyone ever done or have any ideas/suggestions a misothiest/god killer campaign have any ideas (please don't reply if all your going to say is "gods can't be killed. etc.")

[Efrate]

Eliminating or replacing deities? Because you can go the mad God of magic, or caiden route and just become deities replacing them, then ignoring golarion.

Straight up elimination is much harder because iirc they are not started and mythic doesn't have the longevity of 3.5 epic levels.

Having them turn away from golarion might be easier, you just convert people on another plane, like Greyhawk or what have you. Or you convince the Gods (or more likely their agents) this by showing how much more they can [insert gods flaws here] on a different plane with fewer checks and balances and no one causing them to lose followers. This gives you an angle to work through god by god from lower levels. Depending on how much you exaggerate their flaws this might be pretty easy.

A primitive low magic world gaining tons of boons from Asmodaeus without knowing of the hells seems like something he would jump on, entire world's and cultures believing that they must take these bargains to get anything is prime for doing enough to a world to have hell gain a ton of power. You can also alert one of his enemies after a while and have them fight there and have an excuse of how after a hard battle where one kills the other you finish the victor.

This also allows your players to gain various boons or stuff you might never use or see a point to in a dungeon centric game. With the knowledge that said boons are probably temporary because once the gods die or whatever they will not offer said boons anymore. Securing divine aid to place shift and such makes sense even from low levels. You are a twisted star fleet, the gods are your enterprise. Of course you have to find such a world somehow, then deal with divine intermediaries, then go to said place to make stuff happen. So you have angles to work a more traditional find the information/macguffin as well.

[Blind_Prophet]

How the players handle it is up to them if they want go all intrigue and manipulation they can, if they go the route of murdering enough followers to depower the god that works too.

Honestly my main issue is how the hell do i prep a game where i have no idea what the players will do. (Beyond the initial hook stuff) It's been a LONG time since i ran a custom campaign (basically since i switched to pathfinder) just modified modules (i try to allow my players freedom in their actions so i have to modify to compensate and its a home game so w/e)

[Psyren]

I would suggest thinking through the possible outcomes/endpoints of this ahead of time. For example:

- Are the only options killing/ousting the deities or leaving the status quo in place? If not, what other possible outcomes do you see?

- How permanent do you expect these changes to be? You mentioned that this probably won't even be canon for your own setting/version of Golarion - does that mean you expect the deities (or something else) to undo or lessen what the PCs are going to do here? Do you expect the status quo to be restored (wholly or partially) in some way later on?

- What do you expect the consequences to be? Politically, many other Golarion nations are very tied to the gods, especially the ones that revere one or a handful above all the others like Cheliax and Geb. How would they react? What about metaphysically - would Pharasma still judge the dead? Would Rahadoumi still largely end up in their Boneyard? Will they care one way or another?

- What role do you expect Rahadoum itself to play in this plot? Organizations like the Pure Legion and the Occularium would almost certainly be interested in aiding/supplying the PCs in this endeavor, while underground ones like the Last Temple or neighboring nations like Thuvia and Cheliax would likely be opposed. What ways are they likely to get involved, if at all? What will the end state for each of these look like depending on your response to #1?

[Efrate]

Murdering followers to depower a God seems like suicide. Barring some TO shenanigans the number of deaths is staggering, and it will be noticed and retaliated. Going full crazy murder hobo gets you put down fast. If you brew up gods must have x followers in a certain distance to have power you might get away from it, but even in a God hating nation it's unlikely to systematically genocide all followers of God X. Especially because most people will not see it as followers of God X, but just see it as mass murder.

[Raven777]

If the end goal is displacing the Gods in the people's hearts, the PCs might want to become Mythic heroes themselves.
If the end goal is flat out destroying the Gods, they could investigate how to tear down Rovagug's cage (spoiler: the cage is the world itself) or how to trigger the vague end-of-days prophecy where Groetus decides to go all out Majora's Mask moon on the planet. Importing good ol' Pandorym from Forgotten Realms could also be an interesting journey.
Heck, maybe your party's shenanigans could be why Golarion is straight up gone comes Starfinder :smallwink:

One feature to add to your portrayal of Rahadoum: the land is beset by disease, famine and natural disasters much more often than usual for Golarion, since there's never any divine caster or divine intervention to mitigate these. Basically, Rahadoum has to make do with arcane magic, alchemists and medieval tech medicine. Not divine magic to cure diseases or help the crops. Some bad apples also spread rumors that the real reason for calamities being more numerous is some gods themselves sending more than its fair share of disasters towards the place, since they won't get flak from other gods unlike they would for plaguing an ally or rival's pet country.

[Psyren]

Heck, maybe your party's shenanigans could be why Golarion is straight up gone comes Starfinder :smallwink:


Note that some of the Golarion gods did make the jump to SF intact though, e.g. Abadar and Iomedae. Others got a massive upgrade due to the new setting, e.g. the minor piracy goddess Besmara getting elevated to Major Deity due to her portfolio of piracy getting such a massive boost in a spacefaring setting, or the minor nezumi goddess Lao Shu Po suddenly having her ratfolk children become one of the dominant races of the setting.



One feature to add to your portrayal of Rahadoum: the land is beset by disease, famine and natural disasters much more often than usual for Golarion, since there's never any divine caster or divine intervention to mitigate these. Basically, Rahadoum has to make do with arcane magic, alchemists and medieval tech medicine. Not divine magic to cure diseases or help the crops. Some bad apples also spread rumors that the real reason for calamities being more numerous is some gods themselves sending more than its fair share of disasters towards the place, since they won't get flak from other gods unlike they would for plaguing an ally or rival's pet country.

This is true, though psychic magic is also a thing now as well.

[Blind_Prophet]

theres minor rumbles from my players about do a sort of kingmaker: rahadoum

[Raven777]

theres minor rumbles from my players about do a sort of kingmaker: rahadoum

Funny that there is a River Kingdom where religion is outlawed. Look up Touvette.

[Calthropstu]

Eliminating or replacing deities? Because you can go the mad God of magic, or caiden route and just become deities replacing them, then ignoring golarion.

Straight up elimination is much harder because iirc they are not started and mythic doesn't have the longevity of 3.5 epic levels.

Having them turn away from golarion might be easier, you just convert people on another plane, like Greyhawk or what have you. Or you convince the Gods (or more likely their agents) this by showing how much more they can [insert gods flaws here] on a different plane with fewer checks and balances and no one causing them to lose followers. This gives you an angle to work through god by god from lower levels. Depending on how much you exaggerate their flaws this might be pretty easy.

A primitive low magic world gaining tons of boons from Asmodaeus without knowing of the hells seems like something he would jump on, entire world's and cultures believing that they must take these bargains to get anything is prime for doing enough to a world to have hell gain a ton of power. You can also alert one of his enemies after a while and have them fight there and have an excuse of how after a hard battle where one kills the other you finish the victor.

This also allows your players to gain various boons or stuff you might never use or see a point to in a dungeon centric game. With the knowledge that said boons are probably temporary because once the gods die or whatever they will not offer said boons anymore. Securing divine aid to place shift and such makes sense even from low levels. You are a twisted star fleet, the gods are your enterprise. Of course you have to find such a world somehow, then deal with divine intermediaries, then go to said place to make stuff happen. So you have angles to work a more traditional find the information/macguffin as well.

Considering the stats of published DEMIgods, a full god would absolutely wreck any given party. Cthulhu, for example, is virtually unkillable. And if you DO manage to kill him? Surprise, it was an astral projection. (He has it at will after all.)

And gods are, cannon, able to crush demigods. So the only way this is actually happening is via gm fiat making them laughably weak or via super mcguffin.

Super mcguffins are not impossible. But rahadoum does not have one cannonically. There IS, however, a known god slaying monstrosity located in the center of the planet named Rovagug. I could see Rahadoum secretly developing a way to release him and threatening the gods if they don't leave them alone.

[Rynjin]

Cthulhu, for example, is virtually unkillable.

That's a big lmao from me dog. Mythic PCs kinda steamroll ol' squidface.

First Mythic Campaign I ever played my Monk casually oneshot him with Mythic Vital Strike.

[Calthropstu]

That's a big lmao from me dog. Mythic PCs kinda steamroll ol' squidface.

First Mythic Campaign I ever played my Monk casually oneshot him with Mythic Vital Strike.

Then your gm played him wrong. Very very wrong. Since he has at will astral projection and interplanetary travel, he could come again and again. His abilities guarantee first strike, and his first strikes can be deadly. If I ran him, I'd roflstomp entire worlds. Mythic PCs would face a terror campaign unlike any other. And once you bested him once, he would make it his personal mission to obliterate your world. You'd face near nonstop assaults no matter where you went. Mages mansion? Expect a very rude disjunction wake up call. Your own personal demiplane? Invaded with ease.

Sorry, but what I see with these monsters is "awww, you killed me. Now you have my attention." All of the demigods seem to have escape death woth ease powers. Cthulhu doubly so.

[Rynjin]

Then your gm played him wrong. Very very wrong. Since he has at will astral projection and interplanetary travel, he could come again and again. His abilities guarantee first strike, and his first strikes can be deadly. If I ran him, I'd roflstomp entire worlds. Mythic PCs would face a terror campaign unlike any other. And once you bested him once, he would make it his personal mission to obliterate your world. You'd face near nonstop assaults no matter where you went. Mages mansion? Expect a very rude disjunction wake up call. Your own personal demiplane? Invaded with ease.

Sorry, but what I see with these monsters is "awww, you killed me. Now you have my attention." All of the demigods seem to have escape death woth ease powers. Cthulhu doubly so.

Wow, that's cool (even if you seem to grossly misunderstand how Astral Projection works).

Have you looked at what Mythic casters get?

Cthulhu is kind of a ****in' chump, both against Mythic martial characters (who can casually oneshot him and expend precisely zero resources doing so) and especially casters (who are regular casters turned up to 15). He's only CR 30. Level 20/Mythic 10 characters are also CR 30...but they're way under-CR'd for what you can get. Even if the metrics were accurate, let me put it to you this way: Cthulhu vs Mythic 10, level 20 characters is like throwing a single Corgi (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/canines/dog/corgi-dire) at the same party at level 1.

That's if he could even find the party. A single Mythic ability gives you the ability to be unscryable. Two can make you completely undetectable by any means, permanently. And if he did try to find them...he'd live just long enough to regret it, because Mythic Detect Scrying means the homies will be coming to his house within seconds.

This is a luxury Cthulhu does not have.

Mythic 10 characters are immortal and untiring. You could literally just have one of these guys stand outside of his coffin in R'lyeh and boop him on the snoot every time he tries to come out. One shot kill, maybe two if they roll really bad. Mythic characters not only kill Cthulhu, they bully him.

[Calthropstu]

Wow, that's cool (even if you seem to grossly misunderstand how Astral Projection works).

Have you looked at what Mythic casters get?

Cthulhu is kind of a ****in' chump, both against Mythic martial characters (who can casually oneshot him and expend precisely zero resources doing so) and especially casters (who are regular casters turned up to 15). He's only CR 30. Level 20/Mythic 10 characters are also CR 30...but they're way under-CR'd for what you can get. Even if the metrics were accurate, let me put it to you this way: Cthulhu vs Mythic 10, level 20 characters is like throwing a single Corgi (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/canines/dog/corgi-dire) at the same party at level 1.

That's if he could even find the party. A single Mythic ability gives you the ability to be unscryable. Two can make you completely undetectable by any means, permanently. And if he did try to find them...he'd live just long enough to regret it, because Mythic Detect Scrying means the homies will be coming to his house within seconds.

This is a luxury Cthulhu does not have.

Mythic 10 characters are immortal and untiring. You could literally just have one of these guys stand outside of his coffin in R'lyeh and boop him on the snoot every time he tries to come out. One shot kill, maybe two if they roll really bad. Mythic characters not only kill Cthulhu, they bully him.

20/10 mythic are cr 25, not 30. So that tells me what you understand about how mythic works. You add HALF your mythic tier when calculating cr.

Second: Astral projection and gate as at will SLA. Find you? He doesn't care. He floods your entire world with qlippoth, wiping out everything. oOh hey look. Someone is putting up a fight somewhere. He found you.

Ypu never get to attack him, you attack a projection which comes over and over and over again. So yeah. Your vital strike monk can beat him? Cool. (I seriously doubt that happened. 774 damage in one shot is really tough to pull off. Even with mythic, you can only 1shot him with mythic augmented empowered maximized disintegrate buffed with further mythic abilities as far as spells go. AND somehow get him to fail the fort save. So I very much doubt your claim.)

And yes, I know exactly how astral projection works.

Edit: ran the numbers. 20/10 mythic vital strike. I was unable to achieve anywhwre close to the required damage. Even the x4 multiplier isn't enough, unless you somehow get 190 damage before multipliers from vital strike. I was able to reasonably get 90. But I do not see the extra 100.

Regardless, tying this back into the original premise, as powerful as this guy is, true gods have far more tricks up their sleeves and have thousands upon thousands of years of experience. Killing one should NOT be easy.

[Rynjin]

20/10 mythic are cr 25, not 30. So that tells me what you understand about how mythic works. You add HALF your mythic tier when calculating cr.

You right, my b. Though as established Mythic characters are way, way under-CR'd.


Second: Astral projection and gate as at will SLA. Find you? He doesn't care. He floods your entire world with qlippoth, wiping out everything. oOh hey look. Someone is putting up a fight somewhere. He found you.

Okay, he found the party. Then what? He can't do anything to them lol.

Meanwhile, they now have a presence to track back to his original location. Cthulhu, surprisingly, has no protection against scrying effects. Or they could just follow the astral cord. He won't be doing any damage in the meantime, because Mythic Time Stop gives you at least 20 hours to track him where he's frozen in time. 26 hours with the use of some common Mythic abilities, more with other shenanigans. And of course you can always recast it. Wild Arcana lets you cast Mythic Time Stop using no spell slot for a single Mythic Power. You regain Mythic Power at a rate of 1 per hour...you do the math on that one. Nearly infinite time to find and deal with Cthulhu.

So he gets scryed, then fried. Simple as. He has no protection against any of the high level Mythic caster tricks you can use. Or even non-Mythic caster tricks in this cace. If someone was willing to die (to his aura) to Greater Teleport the Mythic Monk to his location he could take it from there.


Ypu never get to attack him, you attack a projection which comes over and over and over again. So yeah. Your vital strike monk can beat him? Cool. (I seriously doubt that happened. 774 damage in one shot is really tough to pull off. Even with mythic, you can only 1shot him with mythic augmented empowered maximized disintegrate buffed with further mythic abilities as far as spells go. AND somehow get him to fail the fort save. So I very much doubt your claim.)


Edit: ran the numbers. 20/10 mythic vital strike. I was unable to achieve anywhwre close to the required damage. Even the x4 multiplier isn't enough, unless you somehow get 190 damage before multipliers from vital strike. I was able to reasonably get 90. But I do not see the extra 100.


Using the "common sense nerfed" version of Mythic Vital Strike (which "only" multiplies the static modifiers by the number of additional times you roll dice, instead of the actual number of dice like it says) the character achieved a damage of 24d8+300. Using the RAW version of Mythic Vital Strike, this would be 24d8+2400 instead. The nerfed version allows you to two-shot him easily; one-rounding him with Amazing Initiative.

The RAW version does about 3x his max health in a single swipe.


Regardless, tying this back into the original premise, as powerful as this guy is, true gods have far more tricks up their sleeves and have thousands upon thousands of years of experience. Killing one should NOT be easy.

In this setting, killing a god is completely impossible for someone who's not a god themselves.

[Calthropstu]

You right, my b. Though as established Mythic characters are way, way under-CR'd.



Okay, he found the party. Then what? He can't do anything to them lol.

Meanwhile, they now have a presence to track back to his original location. Cthulhu, surprisingly, has no protection against scrying effects. Or they could just follow the astral cord. He won't be doing any damage in the meantime, because Mythic Time Stop gives you at least 20 hours to track him where he's frozen in time. 26 hours with the use of some common Mythic abilities, more with other shenanigans. And of course you can always recast it. Wild Arcana lets you cast Mythic Time Stop using no spell slot for a single Mythic Power. You regain Mythic Power at a rate of 1 per hour...you do the math on that one. Nearly infinite time to find and deal with Cthulhu.

So he gets scryed, then fried. Simple as. He has no protection against any of the high level Mythic caster tricks you can use. Or even non-Mythic caster tricks in this cace. If someone was willing to die (to his aura) to Greater Teleport the Mythic Monk to his location he could take it from there.



Using the "common sense nerfed" version of Mythic Vital Strike (which "only" multiplies the static modifiers by the number of additional times you roll dice, instead of the actual number of dice like it says) the character achieved a damage of 24d8+300. Using the RAW version of Mythic Vital Strike, this would be 24d8+2400 instead. The nerfed version allows you to two-shot him easily; one-rounding him with Amazing Initiative.

The RAW version does about 3x his max health in a single swipe.



In this setting, killing a god is completely impossible for someone who's not a god themselves.

You get x the number of extra dice given by vital strike, which is 4 for greater. Mythic vital strike is VERY clear on that. There are no feats that increase that. So pretty sure you screwed up. So YES. When you ignore therules and stack tons of damage the game does not actually allow you to, you can rofl stomp even the gods cuz lol I do infinity plus 2 wins regardless.

[Rynjin]

You get x the number of extra dice given by vital strike, which is 4 for greater. Mythic vital strike is VERY clear on that. There are no feats that increase that. So pretty sure you screwed up. So YES. When you ignore therules and stack tons of damage the game does not actually allow you to, you can rofl stomp even the gods cuz lol I do infinity plus 2 wins regardless.

No, that is the "common sense" reading which I used to get the 24d8+300 number (which is what was used in the actual game); it simply multiplied the static damage (a fairly modest+75) by 4. The character wasn't optimized for damage; instead they were optimized to get the +98 Grapple check I needed to then suplex Cthulhu afterward. Good thing too, as I rolled a 2 on that Grapple.

What the RAW actually says:


You can strike your foes with incredible force.

Prerequisite(s): Vital Strike.

Benefit: Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, multiply the Strength bonus, magic bonus, and other bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by the number of weapon damage dice you roll for that feat.

Extra damage from sources that wouldn’t normally be multiplied on a critical hit isn’t multiplied by this feat.

Now, obviously, the RAW is stupid. But that's what it says. You multiply static damage by the number of weapon damage dice, in this case 24.

[Calthropstu]

No, that is the "common sense" reading which I used to get the 24d8+300 number (which is what was used in the actual game); it simply multiplied the static damage (a fairly modest+75) by 4. The character wasn't optimized for damage; instead they were optimized to get the +98 Grapple check I needed to then suplex Cthulhu afterward. Good thing too, as I rolled a 2 on that Grapple.

What the RAW actually says:



Now, obviously, the RAW is stupid. But that's what it says. You multiply static damage by the number of weapon damage dice, in this case 24.

You forgot to bold "FOR THAT FEAT"

And that is not 1shotting. It DOES 2shot him. Of course there is also something you forget. Just as you can buff for a fight, So can he.

Mythic augmented timestop is, in fact, an issue. But if YOU have access to it? So does he. At will Gate is funny like that. And look at his hd. He can call in other demigods and control them. Handily.

So a group of 6 demigods pop out of mythic augmented timestop, with hundreds of extraplanar denizens popping in every round overwhelming your group with counterspells and ranged spell strikes. You're rolling against a few dozen debilitating saves and it's pretty much rocks fall you die at that point.

DO NOT MESS WITH AT WILL GATE. At will gate is more broken than mythic augmented timestop (which itself is pretty broken.)

[Rynjin]

Because it's not relevant; the "extra damage dice for that Feat" would be, for a Greatsword 2 from Vital Strike, 2 more from Improved, etc.

[Calthropstu]

Because it's not relevant; the "extra damage dice for that Feat" would be, for a Greatsword 2 from Vital Strike, 2 more from Improved, etc.

It doesn't include weapon. Feat only. And you do not stack the feats. It is 2 for vital, 3 for improved and 4 for greater. It is not done as a full attack. It is done instead of an attack action. Haste, 2 weapon fighting, cleave and leap attack do not benefit.

And it kinda does tie into the original premise of godslaying because this ties back to killing a demigod. Specifically Cthullhu which has openly published stats.

[Rynjin]

It doesn't include weapon. Feat only. And you do not stack the feats. It is 2 for vital, 3 for improved and 4 for greater. It is not done as a full attack. It is done instead of an attack action. Haste, 2 weapon fighting, cleave and leap attack do not benefit.

And it kinda does tie into the original premise of godslaying because this ties back to killing a demigod. Specifically Cthullhu which has openly published stats.

Eh...it's really not worth having this discussion. We both agree that "add your static damage 24 times" is very stupid and no table would ever run it that way. The only thing we disagree on is whether it's RAW (which a lot of people believe/d in initial discussions on Mythic) or not.

[Calthropstu]

Eh...it's really not worth having this discussion. We both agree that "add your static damage 24 times" is very stupid and no table would ever run it that way. The only thing we disagree on is whether it's RAW (which a lot of people believe/d in initial discussions on Mythic) or not.

Fair.

Either way, you have to agree that SLAs of demigods are no joke. And with some prep time, cthullhu literally has access to every spell in the game. That is not an exaggeration.

And since his hd are so absurd, "I gate in a fiendish dire tarrasque * 1000" is not out of the question. Well maybe not tarrasque but you get the picture.

[vasilidor]

Everyone likes to make Cthulu into some unbeatable monster. In his first story he was beaten by someone ramming him with a early 20th century steamer ship.

then people make him into a CR 30 supposedly unkillable machine. The point of Cthulu is that monsters, while horrible, are not unbeatable.

[Rynjin]

Gate requires an existing creature, and it has to consent to come through, keep that in mind.

And remember both Archmages and Hierophants have access to every spell in the game too...WITHOUT prep time.

Real talk: Cthulhu is a great threat for many types of characters. Big stats, good toolbox.

But Mythic 10 characters are ABSURD. Like every time you think you've hit the limit of how silly the stuff they can do is, you can always push further beyond.

[Raven777]

To be constructive, I believe Paizo actually has at least two canon occurences of Mythic characters fighting a demigod and destroying it for good. Both occur in Wrath of the Righteous. The Demon Lord Baphomet gets bumped and destroyed forever in his own realm by a 18th level Mythic Tier 8 party (and possibly the Lich, Angel and Inevitable friends they made along the way) as a required milestone in the penultimate book of the AP. Deskari, who unless the DM chooses to use him can remain sir-not-appearing-in-this-movie, can optionally be fought, beaten, hunted down and killed for good at the conclusion of the AP in the sixth book.

I do not have the stats for Cthulhu in book form so I'm going to go by D20pfsrd's (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu/), but I do have them on hand for Baphomet and Deskari from the AP. The former is CR 27 and the latter is CR 29. As an added data point, Areelu Vorlesh, Deskari's second in command, is also CR 27 and gets beaten. Going from that, I surmise the same party which can defeat Baphomet and Deskari could absolutely 100% reduce Cthulhu to 0 hit points; how they proceed from there to deal with it's Immortality (Ex) power is probably gonna be what's the bigger problem.

EDIT : As one last data point, Wrath of the Righteous also has one encounter with an actual god. The fluff for the GM in the book, and the authors themselves later on forums, state clearly that there is nothing the party can do against Iomedae. And if they try and Iomedae gets annoyed enough, they get shunted back off her plane with permanent blindness and deafness for their trouble, no save. Only another god can ever remove the condition. Oh, and the mere act of making fun of Iomedae in her presence can permanently shift your alignment towards chaos/evil. Again, no save. Apparently, paladin goddess has no chill.

[Calthropstu]

To be constructive, I believe Paizo actually has at least two canon occurences of Mythic characters fighting a demigod and destroying it for good. Both occur in Wrath of the Righteous. The Demon Lord Baphomet gets bumped and destroyed forever in his own realm by a 18th level Mythic Tier 8 party (and possibly the Lich, Angel and Inevitable friends they made along the way) as a required milestone in the penultimate book of the AP. Deskari, who unless the DM chooses to use him can remain sir-not-appearing-in-this-movie, can optionally be fought, beaten, hunted down and killed for good at the conclusion of the AP in the sixth book.

I do not have the stats for Cthulhu in book form so I'm going to go by D20pfsrd's (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu/), but I do have them on hand for Baphomet and Deskari from the AP. The former is CR 27 and the latter is CR 29. As an added data point, Areelu Vorlesh, Deskari's second in command, is also CR 27 and gets beaten. Going from that, I surmise the same party which can defeat Baphomet and Deskari could absolutely 100% reduce Cthulhu to 0 hit points; how they proceed from there to deal with it's Immortality (Ex) power is probably gonna be what's the bigger problem.

EDIT : As one last data point, Wrath of the Righteous also has one encounter with an actual god. The fluff for the GM in the book, and the authors themselves later on forums, state clearly that there is nothing the party can do against Iomedae. And if they try and Iomedae gets annoyed enough, they get shunted back off her plane with permanent blindness and deafness for their trouble, no save. Only another god can ever remove the condition. Oh, and the mere act of making fun of Iomedae in her presence can permanently shift your alignment towards chaos/evil. Again, no save. Apparently, paladin goddess has no chill.

I agree that in a knockdown standup fight, cthullhu will lose to 20/10 mythic characters. And it may even happen, once. But it wouldn't be that way a second time. Astral projection to the astral plane, greater teleport to a far away gate to the prime, maybe confuse it a couple times to confuse anyone trying to follow the cord, get back to their world, then begin gating in daemons or qlippoth.

Cthullhu, as I mentioned, has one of the highest hd count in the game. He can gate in other demigods in an anti-pc alliance and teleport in with thousands of cannon fodder.

The pcs would find themselves in an instant war zone, one Cthullhu himself could retreat from instantly. The abilities they gave him are absurd. Baphomet, by comparison, is far weaker from not having Gate. He is also played completely wrong for his abilities. At will shapechange makes him a FAR better ambush attacker. Get the party split, come in as an insect then smash the lone person would fit baphomets powers much better.

But he is just treated as "rargh, I kill you cuz I big."

I would crush many parties with baphomet if I disregarded the write up. But he is not unkillable. Cthullhu is a much better threat.

[Raven777]

I'm sure you could crush any party with Baphomet. Or Deskari. Or Cthulhu. I just don't think the many ways the GM can choose to play their NPCs effectively or ineffectively can be used to resolve a power argument. I'm sure somebody gave a name for that "rule", too, but I'd need one of the playground old timers to remind me of it. :smallwink:

I have full confidence any GM could thwart any party with the infinite ressources at their disposal and the appropriate tactics. But the crux of the GM/player covenant is telling a collaborative story; it can be assumed that any antagonist and any tools or allies provided to players will be setup in such a way as to (ideally, probably) reach the story conclusion the GM intends (party victory, usually; or perchaps some form of pyrrhic victory if we're particularly into selfless sacrifice or grimdark). Excluding the outlier possibility of desiring an unwinnable scenario, there must exist a balanced path to victory. We should not argue "realistically, Cthulhu would do X and crush the PCs"; we should argue "to tell their story, the DM would play Cthulhu X way and challenge the PCs". If the intended story is "crush the party", then that's game over no matter how you slice it. But that's not a very fun game.

Therefore, the only objective metrics we have are stat blocs and maybe combat behaviour directions from the books, and by these, Mythic PCs (and even some high level non-Mythic ones) can take on statted demi gods including scry & die tactics. The PCs have access to the exact same toys the demi gods do, including game breakers like conditional immortality, planes spanning teleportation and divination, or access to any spell in the game. Narratively, if a demi god is spamming minions, the PCs should also have their own allies as well. Gods are another story entirely, because in existing content they're never meant as combat encounters; they're always meant as plot devices. So a GM who wants a story about taking on the gods themselves is either gonna have to depart from their habitual role and stat them up in ways a party can take on, or weave a story where they're defeated though narrative means, not an all out brawl.

[Rynjin]

Gate doesn't care about the caster's HD, only its CL. Cthulhu has CL 30, so can only summon creatures up to 30 HD.

What you also seem to consistently miss is that Mythic 10/20th level casters can do literally everything he can, but better. They can cast any spell available from their list "at-will". So long as they leave 4 Mythic Power in their pool to cast Mythic Time Stop, they can go all day long, all day strong.

Astral Projection at-will? Got it.

Gate at-will? Got it.

Greater Teleport at-will? Got it.

CL 30? Easy to match, and maybe even exceed.

Anything you can claim Cthulhu can do, a minimally optimized 20/10 Wizard or Sorcerer can do as well. They aren't even limited by spells known at that point so the usual arguments against "Schrodinger's Wizard" don't apply. There is no need for prep time, they literally do just have the right spell for the job at any given time.

Mythic characters require encounters so beyond the pale of what's expected by the game that Paizo couldn't manage to write even one that's challenging. It's a big part of why Mythic was just shelved; it's close to unbalanceable.

[Calthropstu]

Gate doesn't care about the caster's HD, only its CL. Cthulhu has CL 30, so can only summon creatures up to 30 HD.

What you also seem to consistently miss is that Mythic 10/20th level casters can do literally everything he can, but better. They can cast any spell available from their list "at-will". So long as they leave 4 Mythic Power in their pool to cast Mythic Time Stop, they can go all day long, all day strong.

Astral Projection at-will? Got it.

Gate at-will? Got it.

Greater Teleport at-will? Got it.

CL 30? Easy to match, and maybe even exceed.

Anything you can claim Cthulhu can do, a minimally optimized 20/10 Wizard or Sorcerer can do as well. They aren't even limited by spells known at that point so the usual arguments against "Schrodinger's Wizard" don't apply. There is no need for prep time, they literally do just have the right spell for the job at any given time.

Mythic characters require encounters so beyond the pale of what's expected by the game that Paizo couldn't manage to write even one that's challenging. It's a big part of why Mythic was just shelved; it's close to unbalanceable.

... Every demigod I have looked at so far has been an absurd challenge. Baphomet: Shapechanges into cute and cuddly pet or other harmless or maybe even useful creature. Separates party from individual. Kills quest givers when back is turned. Summons minotaurs as distractions. Party becomes unable to rest.

When they realize it, baphomet disappears, but their problems are only beginning. More and more of their support network is killed. Towns are wiped out.

If you are "unchallenged" by these encounters, the gm is to blame. These guys can practically do anything without limit.

[Rynjin]

...No they can't.

I genuinely don't think you've taken more than a cursory glance at the options available to Mythic characters.

Keep in mind everything I've mentioned so far is capable through the use of Wild Arcana, which is available to every Archmage or Hierophant (under a different name) and a single Mythic Feat (Mythic Magic) that is available at Tier 1. And it can shut down 90% of everything Baphomet is capable of.

Mythic characters get 5 Mythic Feats and 10 Mythic Powers. Don't even get me started on how busted Legendary Item is.

The only way Baphomet could get away with that stuff is if he directly intervened to kill the party early on in the campaign. In which case...yes, you got me. A CR 27 creature can kill a bunch of level 1 characters. Good job.

Have fun finding a new group of players after that, I guess.

[Blind_Prophet]

There's only one creature that is more powerful than everything else in the game, The DM, the only group stronger than that is the DM and their players working together. This is something my group and I would enjoy trying and as the DM I can facilitate that. Sure I could says rocks fall you die but I wouldnt have players very long now would I.

Please as I said in the OP refrain from telling me about all the ways this WON"T work and help me with how it MIGHT. Thank you :D

[Calthropstu]

There's only one creature that is more powerful than everything else in the game, The DM, the only group stronger than that is the DM and their players working together. This is something my group and I would enjoy trying and as the DM I can facilitate that. Sure I could says rocks fall you die but I wouldnt have players very long now would I.

Please as I said in the OP refrain from telling me about all the ways this WON"T work and help me with how it MIGHT. Thank you :D

From the argument between us you should see the answer. You, as the gm, says it happens. Sure, you can pump out baphomet's abilities to the max, take advantage of the fact that as a demigod he has resources = yes, equip him with an absurd amount of gear because he's a demigod and CAN, and use thousands of spells beforehand.

Or you can throw him, butt naked, at the party in a suicide charge using nothing but his base stats, not use any abilities beforehand and get crushed from the raw power of a 20/10 mythic party.

Or anything inbetween. For a stat block closer to what a TRUE god might have, you can look at fallen god Lucifer.

[Psyren]

Please as I said in the OP refrain from telling me about all the ways this WON"T work and help me with how it MIGHT. Thank you :D

I want to help more but you haven't really answered any of my initial questions yet :smalltongue:

[Blind_Prophet]

I want to help more but you haven't really answered any of my initial questions yet :smalltongue:

Oops sorry



- How permanent do you expect these changes to be? You mentioned that this probably won't even be canon for your own setting/version of Golarion - does that mean you expect the deities (or something else) to undo or lessen what the PCs are going to do here? Do you expect the status quo to be restored (wholly or partially) in some way later on?


It's more like a "What If..." scenario, none of these events actually happened, maybe an alternative universe if the players want another campaign "post-deity exodus"



- Are the only options killing/ousting the deities or leaving the status quo in place? If not, what other possible outcomes do you see?

Thats mostly up to the players, someone mentioned (not sure if it was in this thread or a diff one) making rahadoum a "no dieties,etc. allowed" zone itself instead of the entirety of golarion for example



- What do you expect the consequences to be? Politically, many other Golarion nations are very tied to the gods, especially the ones that revere one or a handful above all the others like Cheliax and Geb. How would they react?

- What role do you expect Rahadoum itself to play in this plot? Organizations like the Pure Legion and the Occularium would almost certainly be interested in aiding/supplying the PCs in this endeavor, while underground ones like the Last Temple or neighboring nations like Thuvia and Cheliax would likely be opposed. What ways are they likely to get involved, if at all?


These are mainly why i'm considering kingdom building to address more "mass" threat either using mass combat rules or just roleplaying the army combats so by the time rahdoum has ruffled enough feathers they have the military might to handle other "mass" mortal threats but that would mean a much longer campaign instead of just a "side-game" which is not necessarily a bad thing and i'm not against it but it would be different than the original plan.



What about metaphysically - would Pharasma still judge the dead? Would Rahadoum still largely end up in their Boneyard? Will they care one way or another?

For the sake of addresing this lets say that the players successfully remove all "dieties,etc." from golarion by w/e means they chose. Death for example could mean non-existance instead of just a different state of being or maybe the players would see reincarnation as a "normal" thing and just let that happen automatically...you live life you die and your reborn. Again alot is up to the players actions.

[Psyren]

It's more like a "What If..." scenario, none of these events actually happened, maybe an alternative universe if the players want another campaign "post-deity exodus"

So it will likely be permanent/lasting, just for a different Golarion - is that accurate?


Thats mostly up to the players, someone mentioned (not sure if it was in this thread or a diff one) making rahadoum a "no dieties,etc. allowed" zone itself instead of the entirety of golarion for example
...
For the sake of addresing this lets say that the players successfully remove all "dieties,etc." from golarion by w/e means they chose. Death for example could mean non-existance instead of just a different state of being or maybe the players would see reincarnation as a "normal" thing and just let that happen automatically...you live life you die and your reborn. Again alot is up to the players actions.

It's valid to leave a lot of the specifics up to the players, but my point is that you should have an idea (even a rough one) of what the potential consequences and NPC reactions will look like going in. This is a big shift to the setting to be trying to wing on the fly, there's no shame or negative in sketching out even a skeleton of those possibilities.



These are mainly why i'm considering kingdom building to address more "mass" threat either using mass combat rules or just roleplaying the army combats so by the time rahdoum has ruffled enough feathers they have the military might to handle other "mass" mortal threats but that would mean a much longer campaign instead of just a "side-game" which is not necessarily a bad thing and i'm not against it but it would be different than the original plan.

You have the power to steer this in the direction you see fit. If you want to avoid worrying about neighboring nations going to war over this and having to deal with that, there's a lot of different ways:

- The specific method the players find for ousting deific influence from Rahadoum makes it so that other nations that still rely on deities are at a disadvantage while there. Maybe it's an artifact or some other localized condition that actually weakens agents/armies of these nations further, or even turns their divine connection against them if they use or serve clerics. Maybe all divine magic, and even arcane/psychic magic used by those with a patron deity (like a Cheliax Sorcerer) is treated as Impeded or Wild within the borders. That would give Rahadoumi mages (and therefore armies) a big home field advantage.

- Rather than being too tough to go to war with, maybe those other nations see the benefit of Rahadoum being even more irenic than it is canonically. If the PCs play up Rahadoum's status as a neutral hub for the deities then it might be the only place on the planet that, say, Asmodeans and Caydenites can safely trade. Perhaps its very existence helps to keep Rovagug contained in the planet's core, because (like the Snarl) he feeds on deific resentment/hostility, and so having a place on the planet where all the other gods can set aside their differences helps weaken him too much to break free.

- You could actually lean in to the war aspect, but kick the can very far down the road, even into a future campaign if you don't want to deal with it now. Whatever resentment might be building in Rahadoum's neighbors could simply be mired in bureaucracy (both mortal and divine) and thus be a problem for sometime after the natural lifespan of the current PCs.

[Blind_Prophet]

So it will likely be permanent/lasting, just for a different Golarion - is that accurate?

Assuming the players succeed/agree with the way the NPC wants to handle things...could end up being they say "use the starstone to create a barrier" but it only has enough power to cut off the gods for 100 years or they didn't configure it properly so occasionally outsiders can slip through...but yes thats accurate.




It's valid to leave a lot of the specifics up to the players, but my point is that you should have an idea (even a rough one) of what the potential consequences and NPC reactions will look like going in. This is a big shift to the setting to be trying to wing on the fly, there's no shame or negative in sketching out even a skeleton of those possibilities.

This GREATLY depends on whether the players want a short "hot knife through butter" type campaign or a longer style. The former would mean most of the other kingdoms, etc. reactions would be post or near end of the campaign a longer campaign would have the rest of golarion or at least their neighbours heavily involved throughout.



You have the power to steer this in the direction you see fit. If you want to avoid worrying about neighboring nations going to war over this and having to deal with that, there's a lot of different ways:

- The specific method the players find for ousting deific influence from Rahadoum makes it so that other nations that still rely on deities are at a disadvantage while there. Maybe it's an artifact or some other localized condition that actually weakens agents/armies of these nations further, or even turns their divine connection against them if they use or serve clerics. Maybe all divine magic, and even arcane/psychic magic used by those with a patron deity (like a Cheliax Sorcerer) is treated as Impeded or Wild within the borders. That would give Rahadoumi mages (and therefore armies) a big home field advantage.

- Rather than being too tough to go to war with, maybe those other nations see the benefit of Rahadoum being even more irenic than it is canonically. If the PCs play up Rahadoum's status as a neutral hub for the deities then it might be the only place on the planet that, say, Asmodeans and Caydenites can safely trade. Perhaps its very existence helps to keep Rovagug contained in the planet's core, because (like the Snarl) he feeds on deific resentment/hostility, and so having a place on the planet where all the other gods can set aside their differences helps weaken him too much to break free.


These are interesting idea's I'll either keep them in mind as reactions to the players actions or suggest them as possible "themes" to my players


- You could actually lean in to the war aspect, but kick the can very far down the road, even into a future campaign if you don't want to deal with it now. Whatever resentment might be building in Rahadoum's neighbors could simply be mired in bureaucracy (both mortal and divine) and thus be a problem for sometime after the natural lifespan of the current PCs.

This would suit the more hot knife through butter style of campaign

[Rynjin]

There's only one creature that is more powerful than everything else in the game, The DM, the only group stronger than that is the DM and their players working together. This is something my group and I would enjoy trying and as the DM I can facilitate that. Sure I could says rocks fall you die but I wouldnt have players very long now would I.

Please as I said in the OP refrain from telling me about all the ways this WON"T work and help me with how it MIGHT. Thank you :D

Your main problem is gonna be you'll need to make all the stats yourself, and there are no guidelines really for how powerful you need to make the gods.

We know EMpyreal Lords and the like, which are minor deities of their own (you can worship them and gain spells) are CR 26-ish, as Ragathiel. (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ragathiel)

You want to start there, or with someone like Lucifer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc/)and scale up. WAY up.

One of the main things you want to crib from Lucifer (because his actual combat tools are a little meh) is Planar Omniscience (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/umr-3pp-frog-god-games). But also scaled way up so it covers the breadth of a much larger plane.

[Blind_Prophet]

Ooooo, omniscience, i love it

[vasilidor]

FYI Cthulu does not get gate at will, and cannot teleport in with a thousand minions. Not under his own power.
He gets gate 3 times a day and can greater teleport at will though. As a level 30 caster for both.

[Calthropstu]

FYI Cthulu does not get gate at will, and cannot teleport in with a thousand minions. Not under his own power.
He gets gate 3 times a day and can greater teleport at will though. As a level 30 caster for both.

that's what I get for reading that on a tiny phone screen. Although...

Do your spells and SLAs get depleted from spells cast from ypur Astral bpdy? If not...

[vasilidor]

that's what I get for reading that on a tiny phone screen. Although...

Do your spells and SLAs get depleted from spells cast from ypur Astral bpdy? If not...

As far as I am aware, they do.