Arguing against the presence of metals as a Wizard

[Albanymusicfund]

The title explains it in summary, however I am having difficulty expanding on my backup Wizard character. His goal is to find out how to transmute normal objects into gold, not so that he may become rich but so that he can know how to rid the world of gold and other types of metals. I imagined that a majority of his reasoning would stem from that fact that he believes that the arcane can replace the majority of the uses for metal tools, metal weapons/armor, and coinage. In sum, this wizard would be an arcane supremacist.

I've sort of established that his mindset would be that all the blood, sweat, and tears of physical labor can all be replaced by the study of arcane magic. However, I have not entirely reasoned out why he would want to destroy coinage. Maybe it could be that he detests the fact that coin is instead a substitute for a produced good when it comes to trading so one does not necessarily have to create things like food or homes to earn a lot of coin.

I was hoping to hear the community's input on ideas for why a wizard would want to destroy coinage or even metals generally.

Thank you in advance,
AlbanyMusicFund

[Particle_Man]

Well coins (or at least monetary items) do not have to be made of metal (money can be sea shells, special rocks, glass beads, paper, etc.), so if the wizard succeeds it does not mean the idea of money goes away.

[Rynjin]

Seems like kind of a dumb plan for a by-default hyper-intelligent Wizard because several spells call for the use of metals, and enchantments on a lot of items "stick" better to metal as they are more durable.

Can't really Plane Shift without metal, as a quick example.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Metal items also tend to not only hold up well to the test of time, but are exceedingly durable.

Take a wand. If it's metal, it's hard to burn, won't warp due to moisture, will last hundreds of years. That same wand of wood is vulnerable in ways that metal simply isn't. And don't get me started on alternate materials like bone or stone.

And that's ignoring the mechanical effects of increased hardness and hit points for metal over other materials.

[Albanymusicfund]

Seems like kind of a dumb plan for a by-default hyper-intelligent Wizard because several spells call for the use of metals, and enchantments on a lot of items "stick" better to metal as they are more durable.

Can't really Plane Shift without metal, as a quick example.

Maybe not entirely, the eschew materials feat exists which would go a long way in helping create this wizard who detests metals.

[Albanymusicfund]

Well coins (or at least monetary items) do not have to be made of metal (money can be sea shells, special rocks, glass beads, paper, etc.), so if the wizard succeeds it does not mean the idea of money goes away.

This is true! Maybe to compromise there would have to be a sort druid-like tendency to this wizard in which only naturally made objects are permissible in this sense rather human physicality creating that.

[Albanymusicfund]

Metal items also tend to not only hold up well to the test of time, but are exceedingly durable.

Take a wand. If it's metal, it's hard to burn, won't warp due to moisture, will last hundreds of years. That same wand of wood is vulnerable in ways that metal simply isn't. And don't get me started on alternate materials like bone or stone.

And that's ignoring the mechanical effects of increased hardness and hit points for metal over other materials.

Yes! That's the point! This wizard would want the world to abandon it's dependance on tools and by making metal much more rare more people would drift toward the "obviously superior" ways of magic.

[Particle_Man]

Mind you there are other durable items like psionic deep crystal which either your wizard also wants to take out or becomes the default new material for people to use.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Apparently metal is "unnatural," which is why druids can't wear it. Never mind that it's found embedded in earth like stone and actually comes from the Elemental Plane of Earth. Maybe your wizard was raised by druids and was indoctrinated into their world-spanning cult and wants to get rid of "unnatural" things -- even natural ones.

Or maybe your druid wizard is part-elemental (fire, water, and/or air) with a low Wis score and finds anything from the other planes to be highly unpleasant and is trying to justify his hatred of things like metal by lying to himself.

[Particle_Man]

I suppose another option is to turn every sentient being into lava children. I think that metal doesn't exist for them and they move through it like we move through air.

[Nelfin]

I am not a specialist of DnD so take what I write with salt.

You can argue about manufactured metal and not metal. Seems difficult to argue against metal since it can be found in nature.

You can invoke cosmology and talk about how manufactured metal wasn't necessary for magic and that the power of deity only comes from their whorshipers. So that the current "deities of metal" are only an image of their whorshipers.

You can have a buddhist like philosophy about argue about manufactured metal as a perversion, denying one's true self. How possessions are only a hinder (hinder? Well have negative imacts) to social relations. Or even about one's wealth (as in wealth is one's ability to provide to one's needs and decreasing one's needs is the same as increasing one's wealth. You can argue about how manufactured metal (weapon and armors) just decrease one's true power. You could talk about your own experience about how you defeated an enemy when, let's say, the fighter couldn't do anything. If you are powerfull enough, you can just blast your detractor and say "See, I was right". XD

You can provide yourself as an example by not having metal objects and search for a transmutation spell not into gold but wood for instance. You can also argue about cost/weight of metal.


Edit: also the way you are arguying depends on your purpose. If the prupose is to "trully" convince your detractor, it is hard. But if the purpose is to appear to be right in front of an audience, then you can use tricks they use for advertising/selling/rhetoric.

[redking]

I've sort of established that his mindset would be that all the blood, sweat, and tears of physical labor can all be replaced by the study of arcane magic.

Is this PC's motivation created by you, or mandated by someone else and you are having to come up with some sensible justification for it? If it's just you, you can easily change it.

Instead of the quixotic quest to eliminate money, just have your PC scorn money, swapping money for magic at the first opportunity.

[Crake]

Apparently metal is "unnatural," which is why druids can't wear it. Never mind that it's found embedded in earth like stone and actually comes from the Elemental Plane of Earth. Maybe your wizard was raised by druids and was indoctrinated into their world-spanning cult and wants to get rid of "unnatural" things -- even natural ones.

Well, metal ore is naturally found, but to get to a workable and useful stage, it needs to be smelted and processed in artificial forges and refineries, which is where the "unnatural" part comes from.

But I mean, the thing is, there are far more unnatural, and also far more durable materials than metal if we start going forward into the future. The issue with trying to make everything magical based is that, for something to become popular, it has to cater to the lowest common denominator, and not everyone is able to use arcane magic, so unless you're willing to make items that have literally no usage requirements (ruling out all forms of scrolls and wands, basically potions and command word/use activated items), and finding a way to make them accessible to the majority of the population, because even the most basic magic items are literally thousands of gold, then you're not going to reach a critical mass of people using it to make it grow naturally.

Now, of course, that's not to say it's impossible. I have an era in my world where people use an item that siphons their xp, which they then use to trade, so 99.9999% of the population is perpetually level 1 because they keep spending the xp they gain each day for luxuries. On every corner of every street there's a fabricator box, think like star trek replicators, that can make whatever you're able to envision, basically a utopian, post-scarcity society, where the top 0.0001% get funneled all the xp of the population to build up their aresenals, and so in reality it's honestly less utopian, and more like brave new world, because the people just end up being like cattle, milked by the powerful elite.

Uhh, I think I got side tracked a bit, but yeah, I think you need to give this all a bit more thought, seems like you've got an end point you clearly want, but you need to think much harder about why and how it got there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, metal ore is naturally found, but to get to a workable and useful stage, it needs to be smelted and processed in artificial forges and refineries, which is where the "unnatural" part comes from. The same goes for leather, knapped stone, woven cloth, carved wood -- basically anything and everything that has anything done to it other than just picking it up and using it as-is. You could pick up a tree branch or a femur bone off the ground and use it as a club, but anything else is every bit as "unnatural" as worked metal.

In short, druids are stupid. Powerful, but stupid.

Giving divine magic to a druid is basically giving a shotgun to a hillbilly.

[King of Nowhere]

what i'm not clear is how this wizard plans to rid the world of metals by... transmuting other objects into metal?
shouldn't he want to transmute metals into other objects instead?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

what i'm not clear is how this wizard plans to rid the world of metals by... transmuting other objects into metal?
shouldn't he want to transmute metals into other objects instead?He could always use fabricate to evaporate the metal used as the material component.

[JoeNapalm]

So...what you're saying is...he's mad.

And not the angry kind.

It's okay. Not an uncommon affliction among those who study the esoteric arts.



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Fouredged Sword]

Perhaps he came from humble beginnings and his parents worked long hours in a gold mine to send him to wizard school so he could have a better life. Just as he was graduating the mine collapsed crushing both his parents. Rather than leave him with claustrophobia, it instead instilled in him a deep hatred for metal. He wants nothing more than to create a world where nobody has to delve deep into the earth to dig up shinny metal that isn't actually useful for anything.

Standard batman beginning for an anti-metal batman wizard. A mine killed his parents so now he wants to kill the mining industry.

[Albanymusicfund]

Apparently metal is "unnatural," which is why druids can't wear it. Never mind that it's found embedded in earth like stone and actually comes from the Elemental Plane of Earth. Maybe your wizard was raised by druids and was indoctrinated into their world-spanning cult and wants to get rid of "unnatural" things -- even natural ones.

Or maybe your druid wizard is part-elemental (fire, water, and/or air) with a low Wis score and finds anything from the other planes to be highly unpleasant and is trying to justify his hatred of things like metal by lying to himself.

This could work! I just want there to be a little bit of sense within his madness.

[Albanymusicfund]

I am not a specialist of DnD so take what I write with salt.

You can argue about manufactured metal and not metal. Seems difficult to argue against metal since it can be found in nature.

You can invoke cosmology and talk about how manufactured metal wasn't necessary for magic and that the power of deity only comes from their whorshipers. So that the current "deities of metal" are only an image of their whorshipers.

You can have a buddhist like philosophy about argue about manufactured metal as a perversion, denying one's true self. How possessions are only a hinder (hinder? Well have negative imacts) to social relations. Or even about one's wealth (as in wealth is one's ability to provide to one's needs and decreasing one's needs is the same as increasing one's wealth. You can argue about how manufactured metal (weapon and armors) just decrease one's true power. You could talk about your own experience about how you defeated an enemy when, let's say, the fighter couldn't do anything. If you are powerfull enough, you can just blast your detractor and say "See, I was right". XD


I will be using this advice thank you very much.

[Albanymusicfund]

Well, metal ore is naturally found, but to get to a workable and useful stage, it needs to be smelted and processed in artificial forges and refineries, which is where the "unnatural" part comes from.

But I mean, the thing is, there are far more unnatural, and also far more durable materials than metal if we start going forward into the future. The issue with trying to make everything magical based is that, for something to become popular, it has to cater to the lowest common denominator, and not everyone is able to use arcane magic, so unless you're willing to make items that have literally no usage requirements (ruling out all forms of scrolls and wands, basically potions and command word/use activated items), and finding a way to make them accessible to the majority of the population, because even the most basic magic items are literally thousands of gold, then you're not going to reach a critical mass of people using it to make it grow naturally.

Now, of course, that's not to say it's impossible. I have an era in my world where people use an item that siphons their xp, which they then use to trade, so 99.9999% of the population is perpetually level 1 because they keep spending the xp they gain each day for luxuries. On every corner of every street there's a fabricator box, think like star trek replicators, that can make whatever you're able to envision, basically a utopian, post-scarcity society, where the top 0.0001% get funneled all the xp of the population to build up their aresenals, and so in reality it's honestly less utopian, and more like brave new world, because the people just end up being like cattle, milked by the powerful elite.

Uhh, I think I got side tracked a bit, but yeah, I think you need to give this all a bit more thought, seems like you've got an end point you clearly want, but you need to think much harder about why and how it got there.

I might have to steal this idea for my character. Thank you in advance.

[Albanymusicfund]

So...what you're saying is...he's mad.

And not the angry kind.

It's okay. Not an uncommon affliction among those who study the esoteric arts.



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

I'm glad somebody understand!

[icefractal]

A possible origin for this philosophy would be study of the fey, with some questionable conclusions being reached:
1) Many of the fey have potent supernatural powers. Even the least of them usually know some small magics.
2) Why don't humans have this? Because we're too reliant on physical tools!
3) The fey particularly hate cold iron - but do they really like any metals? Well, some do, but maybe those are corrupted fey who'll lose their magic in time.

QED, eliminate tools, especially metal ones, and humans will develop inherent powers like the fey have, or at least have a much easier time learning magic.

So in that case, maybe he doesn't really have a problem with coins or decorations per-se, but since metal ones can be reforged into tools they have to go as well.

[Telonius]

I'd ask the DM if you could get a Rust Monster (possibly de-powered or fewer HD) as an Improved Familiar.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd ask the DM if you could get a Rust Monster (possibly de-powered or fewer HD) as an Improved Familiar.Is there some way to "milk" a rust monster for spit, or whatever? At the very least, rust monster blood is corrosive to metal.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'd ask the DM if you could get a Rust Monster (possibly de-powered or fewer HD) as an Improved Familiar.

You can ask your DM to give you special permission, but for everything else there is Polymorph Any Object. Your familiar remains your familiar under the permanent magical effect.

[Crake]

I might have to steal this idea for my character. Thank you in advance.

If you do, I only have one request.... let me know how it goes! I wanna hear all about it! :smallbiggrin:


The same goes for leather, knapped stone, woven cloth, carved wood -- basically anything and everything that has anything done to it other than just picking it up and using it as-is. You could pick up a tree branch or a femur bone off the ground and use it as a club, but anything else is every bit as "unnatural" as worked metal.

I mean, it's not really at all the same comparing worked goods to processed goods.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean, it's not really at all the same comparing worked goods to processed goods.What, like cooking doesn't alter the chemical composition of what's being cooked? Or leatherworking doesn't require chemical processes to turn animal skin into tanned leather? Or using fire to harden a spear-point doesn't involve any kind of chemical changes?

Like I said, unless you're just picking a rock or a stick up to hit someone with it, there's really not much difference between the above or melting down metal to remove impurities to make it stronger.

[KillianHawkeye]

Giving divine magic to a druid is basically giving a shotgun to a hillbilly.

Jokes on you! Hillbillies LOVE shotguns. :smallbiggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Jokes on you! Hillbillies LOVE shotguns. :smallbiggrin:Yes, but it's bad for everyone else.

[Albanymusicfund]

Yes, but it's bad for everyone else.

I think it is epic.

[daryen]

The same goes for leather, knapped stone, woven cloth, carved wood -- basically anything and everything that has anything done to it other than just picking it up and using it as-is. You could pick up a tree branch or a femur bone off the ground and use it as a club, but anything else is every bit as "unnatural" as worked metal.

Do note that Druids don't hate metal. They use it all the time. They use metal tools, metal weapons, and religious metal items. Druids have no problem with metal as metal.

What they do have a problem with is metal armor. That's what screws them up. And even then, depending on how you fluff it, it doesn't even have to be that they hate it, just that it screws with their magic.

Regardless, it isn't metal Druids have a problem with, just metal armor. (Not saying even this makes any sense. Just saying the prohibition is more specific than was being stated.)

[False God]

{Scrubbed}

[Albanymusicfund]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[MaxiDuRaritry]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}Giving you things to think about when it comes to how to not be horribly disruptive to a game and ruin everyone else's fun is a waste of time?

[Albanymusicfund]

Giving you things to think about when it comes to how to not be horribly disruptive to a game and ruin everyone else's fun is a waste of time?

{Scrubbed}

[Albanymusicfund]

Giving you things to think about when it comes to how to not be horribly disruptive to a game and ruin everyone else's fun is a waste of time?

{Scrubbed}

[False God]

Opps, mod got here before I finished, erased.