How about to use a Disembodied Spirit?

[ShurikVch]

Disembodied Spirit (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074252/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030924a) template was designed as "absolute noncombatant": it have no attacks, and able to do only Move Actions (i. e. - not even Free Actions!). That's why its CR is set on "0".

But I think about what can be done with such premises, and found several possibilities:
Gaze attacks - not "actual" attacks, but constant effects in certain radius
Constant AoE centered on the creature - such as Magmin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/magmin.htm)'s Fiery Aura (i. e. - about the same as Gazes, but Gazes rarely do actual damage)
"Retributive" effects - such as Raging Blood SA from the Monster of Legend template
Swarm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype) "attack" does automatic damage at the end of their move
Even with those findings, template may be still not useful for PC, but how about to use it as a monster?
But wait, what's about the CR 0?
Oh, it's easy: CR dropped to 0, but not "frozen" in that number - templates, racial HD, or class levels would be able to increase it

So, how about to use such creature in some encounter(s)?

Or, maybe, you would want to actually play as a PC with this template?

[Prime32]

it have no attacks, and able to do only Move Actions (i. e. - not even Free Actions!).
Lv14 Samurai with Imperious Command maybe? Attempt to demoralize all creatures within 30ft as a move action.

Monk 1/Totemist 5 with the Sun School feat. Bind blink shirt to the totem chakra so that you can teleport as a move action, then use other soulmelds to grant yourself attacks.

[Thurbane]

The Attack line of a template general only refers to physical attacks (natural weapons or manufactured weapons); Special Attacks is a separate entry, so I don't think the template removes Special Attacks from the base creature.

Would being limited to a single move action each turn mean it wouldn't get swift or immediate actions? I'm thinking about spellcasting, since there are some offensive spells with swift or immediate casting times.

I went looking for spells with a move action casting time, and there aren't any that I can find. I thought Channeled Pyroburst had an option for move action casting time, but it jumps from swift to standard.

The Goad feat only takes a move action to use, and could seriously hamper melee bruisers that have issues incorporeal creatures, especially those with low Will saves. Although, if it couldn't damage you at all, would it still meet the feat setup of threatening you?

[loky1109]

(i. e. - not even Free Actions!)

No.


Skills: Same as the base creature, except it cannot speak.
Talk is free action. If it can't do free actions, there are no reasons to point out that it cannot speak.

[ShurikVch]

The big clue about the writer's intentions is:

Challenge Rating: 0
The "0" means PC get no XP for the win. Which means - Disembodied Spirits are supposed to be completely harmless - even in numbers

In one of older thread, when people argued for usefulness of the template, opponents pointed on the Nauseated (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated) condition - the same restrictions...



Talk is free action. If it can't do free actions, there are no reasons to point out that it cannot speak.
While interesting note, it don't contradicts previous text:

A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn.
Since talking isn't a move action - it can't speak



The Attack line of a template general only refers to physical attacks (natural weapons or manufactured weapons); Special Attacks is a separate entry, so I don't think the template removes Special Attacks from the base creature.
As I quoted just above - Disembodied Spirit is able to make only a single move action each turn
It doesn't removing Special Attacks - just make them impossible to use (like slowed character is unable to perform full round actions - despite still having them for all other purposes)



Lv14 Samurai with Imperious Command maybe? Attempt to demoralize all creatures within 30ft as a move action.

Monk 1/Totemist 5 with the Sun School feat. Bind blink shirt to the totem chakra so that you can teleport as a move action, then use other soulmelds to grant yourself attacks.
Good idea about the Imperious Command - a "scary spirit" is a classics!

About the Monk/Totemist - not so good:
What kind of action is to shape and bind soulmelds?
While soulmelds can grant attacks, Disembodied Spirit wouldn't be able to use them - because "only a single move action"
Disembodied Spirit have no attacks - thus, shadowsunpouncing is pointlessActually, is there some effect which allow to make explosion in the place of your teleportation? This way could be one more way to sidestep the restriction...

[mattie_p]

Recent villainous competition used disembodied spirit + beholder hive mother free action eye rays.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a shadow pounce build with move action teleportation for teleporting full-attacking 2/round? A level of monk with throwing and distance on its unarmed strikes, and it can teleport / full attack of throws / teleport / full attack of throws and cover a huge distance around while also attacking anything nearby. Add in things like Snap Kick and such for lots more attacks added on, and...

Just make sure it has ghost touch on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay, so a shadowpouncer that can get a single move-full-attack each turn. And then messes with the action economy to get several more.

[ShurikVch]

Recent villainous competition used disembodied spirit + beholder hive mother free action eye rays.
Which one, and how it was rated?
And can you give a link to it?



How about a shadow pounce build with move action teleportation for teleporting full-attacking 2/round? A level of monk with throwing and distance on its unarmed strikes, and it can teleport / full attack of throws / teleport / full attack of throws and cover a huge distance around while also attacking anything nearby. Add in things like Snap Kick and such for lots more attacks added on, and...

Just make sure it has ghost touch on.
Ahem...
Don't you noticed:

Attack: A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn.
Shadowpouncing is possible - but, ultimately, pointless: without attacks, you wouldn't be able to do anything...



To clarify what "can make only a single move action each turn" means, since people seem to be taking OP's error and running with it -- we're talking about each turn as a context. During a turn you can make full-round, standard, swift, and move actions. Of those, you get move actions.

This has no influence over free actions, which can be as simple as "stop thinking about something," and thus should obviously be possible regardless as long as you understand what they are. It also has no influence over immediate actions, since those aren't bound to your turn in the first place.
[citation needed]
Also, do you mean nauseated (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated) creatures are able to use their Free and Immediate actions? :smallconfused:


Likewise, "cannot speak" shouldn't be taken as a sign of it not having access to free actions. For one, it explicitly can still communicate if you make telepathic contact. For another, animals can't speak either, and they can take free actions to drop items or whatever. It's just insubstantial and spooky so it can't talk normally.
About inability to speak - it was not my point, but loky1109's
For me - mention of "can make only a single move action each turn" was enough


Another thing that's worth noting is that you still get a full turn. You just can't make standard, swift, or full-round actions. Which means that the option to take a second move action instead of those is always available.
:smallconfused: Dont's you seeing you're just routinely contradicted the template's description: you saying "to take a second move action" while description allows "only a single move action each turn"...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It has no attacks, but it can gain them, which is what the class levels and feats are for.

Humans don't have any attacks either, but we can gain them, too.

[loky1109]

Which one, and how it was rated?
And can you give a link to it?
I can, this is my entry.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25124379&postcount=70


About inability to speak - it was not my point, but loky1109's
For me - mention of "can make only a single move action each turn" was enough
Yes, it is my point.
If "can make only a single move action" is enough, inability to speak is meaningless, because Disembodied Spirit cannot speak anyway, but this inability was specially noted. Logics on my side. This is the exception that confirms the rule.


You just can't make standard, swift, or full-round actions.
This is 3.0, then were no swift and immediate actions.


Humans don't have any attacks either, but we can gain them, too.
And they aren't humanoids, yes, we know. )))

[ShurikVch]

It has no attacks, but it can gain them, which is what the class levels and feats are for.
Let me remind you:

"Disembodied spirit" is an acquired template
Since no RAW about the creature with it to not have a class - we should presume Disembodied Spirit have no attacks regardless of any class

Actually, in the fluff, the Spirit Portal was used on Dwarves who're neared death from old age - no way they don't have a class!



Humans don't have any attacks either, but we can gain them, too.
No, they have: Unarmed Strike and Touch Attack. Presto! Right out of the box...

[Prime32]

So, what if a Disembodied Spirit uses wild shape (via the Fast Wild Shape feat), losing its attacks and traits and replacing them with those of its animal form?

EDIT:

About the Monk/Totemist - not so good:
What kind of action is to shape and bind soulmelds?
Shaping and binding soulmelds takes a specific length of time, rather than using actions.


While soulmelds can grant attacks, Disembodied Spirit wouldn't be able to use them - because "only a single move action"
Not a problem.

After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

Flash of Sunset: To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe instantaneously, as with a dimension door spell or the monk's abundant step class feature. If you do so, you can immediately make a single attack at your highest attack bonus against that foe.
Fortunately, Flash of Sunset is not an action.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, the inability to speak may put a damper on Goad and Imperious Command...I don't know that it is stated outright, but I assume both of these would require speech?

Avenging Executioner 2 also gets to demoralize as a move action.

Squire of Legend (Reikhardt) can grant an ally a move action by using a move action. 1/day, pretty underwhelming.

Winged Warrior lets you stir up a dust cloud as a move action.

Wing Expert lets you generate a Gust of Wind effect as a move ation, if you use a move or greater action to fly the round before. Never mind, misread that one.

Astral Dancer 7 can swap places with an adjacent creature as a move action. Maybe you could drop an enemy off a cliff, or into quicksand?

Epic of the Lost King lets you use Bardic Music uses as a move action to remove Fatigue or Exhaustion from up to 3 creatures.

Stupid RAW argument, would having the Flyby Attack feat overcome the restriction on only getting move actions?


When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.


It could be argued that the feat is granting you different action types that override your innate restriction. Obviously not RAI, but I wonder...

[ShurikVch]

So, what if a Disembodied Spirit uses wild shape (via the Fast Wild Shape feat), losing its attacks and traits and replacing them with those of its animal form?
I'm still skeptical of intended ability to use Free Actions



Not a problem.

Fortunately, Flash of Sunset is not an action.
Well, firstly - I still doubt about the Disembodied Spirit's very ability to attack at all: template says "has no attacks" without considering possible natural attacks

But even if it, actually, works - Disembodied Spirit is Incorporeal; all the claws and bites wouldn't be able to harm corporeal enemies. I suppose Armguards of Disruption might be used - but it's it.
(Technically, there also Necrocarnum Shroud with the Soul chakra bind - but it would be rather high-level goal...)

[ShurikVch]

Note to everybody: lack of attack for Disembodied Spirit isn't a result of lack of Standard Actions, but a separate thing - because Attacks Of Opportunity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) is a thing, and AoO is not an action at all
Thus, we should presume:
either "a single move action" restriction is so all-encompassing it's even incudes non-actions,
or Disembodied Spirit lacks attacks regardless of actions available...

[Thurbane]

Note to everybody: lack of attack for Disembodied Spirit isn't a result of lack of Standard Actions, but a separate thing - because Attacks Of Opportunity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) is a thing, and AoO is not an action at all
Thus, we should presume:
either "a single move action" restriction is so all-encompassing it's even incudes non-actions,
or Disembodied Spirit lacks attacks regardless of actions available...

Personally, I don't think it's an "or" situation: I think both apply, although I'm not sold on losing non-actions.

My reading is that the template removes attacks i.e. natural weapons, manufactured weapons etc. AND the creature is also limited to a single move action per turn. It is kind of weird that the move limitation is mentioned in the Attack line, rather than as a Special Quality (like it is with Zombies, and their Single Actions Only).

The action limitation shouldn't prevent non-actions; it probably does prevent swift or immediate actions, and even free actions. But non-actions are, by definition, not actions. I think I was misunderstanding your point, sorry.

It's a weird template, for sure. I believe, as you mentioned, the RAI is clear - the creature is supposed to be a complete non-combatant.

But by RAW, if you can find abilities that function within the limitations of having no attacks, no ability to speak, and being limited to a single move action per round (such as continual damaging auras etc.), the creature may still be able to damage or otherwise affect others.

I also find this line interesting:


Hit Dice: The creature's hit points are equal to the victim's hit points at the time the separation occurred.


Does that mean if the base creature is damaged when the template is applied, the resulting Disembodied Spirit has a lower hit point cap? How about if the base creature has temprary hit points above it's normal total? Does this carry over to a new, higher total for the DS?

Also, does the DS need to eat, breathe and sleep? If it needs to eat, how does it do that in an incorporeal state?

[Psyren]

No.


Talk is free action. If it can't do free actions, there are no reasons to point out that it cannot speak.

Counterpoint: can't speak and can't take move actions aren't contradictory either. Specifying both doesn't make one of them not true or meaningless.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

High Cha to sub for Str + ghost touch gloves + picking up objects to drop from above? Shrink item would help with this to multiply effective carrying capacity by a considerable amount.

[Darg]

Being able to touch something is not inherently an attack.

As for limited actions:


Restricted Activity

In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round’s worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free actions as normal). You can’t take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).

The template only restricts you from making standard actions. Free actions are still available which include swifts and immediates.

The template does not prohibit the acquisition of attacks. I would say that a quickened spell could be cast and used to attack.

[ShurikVch]

It's a weird template, for sure.
Yes, very much:
Disembodied Spirit is incapable to speak, but - say - Drow Sign Language is a thing (let along language of Ethergaunts, which consists of wriggling their head tendrils)
Also, unconventional editing makes its Rejuvenation is not a Special Quality, or even Special Attack - but just Attack :smallamused:
Finally, the "Abilities:" line says:

Same as the base creature, except that the ghost has no Strength and Constitution score.
Firstly, it says "Ghost" - not "Disembodied Spirit"
But even if we ignore it - it still gives Disembodied Spirit "Con -" without making it Undead (or Construct)


I also find this line interesting:

Does that mean if the base creature is damaged when the template is applied, the resulting Disembodied Spirit has a lower hit point cap? How about if the base creature has temprary hit points above it's normal total? Does this carry over to a new, higher total for the DS?
All the good questions :smallsmile:
Unfortunately, it's, probably, would be up to DM, because official rules clarification for this edition is less likely than sudden fall of meteorite
I, personally, like the concept of "hurt so badly even their spirits would feel it", but not so sure about the temporary hp...


Also, does the DS need to eat, breathe and sleep? If it needs to eat, how does it do that in an incorporeal state?
Even if we would disregard "Con -" as bad copypasta, still - as Skip Williams told us in the There, Not There (Part Three) (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215157/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a) (Rules of the Game):

The Basics of Incorporeality
...
An incorporeal creature has no physical body.
No matter what the creature looks like, it has no flesh, bones, protoplasm, or any other substance that makes up a corporeal creature's body. In effect, an incorporeal creature is a disembodied intellect or spirit.

Because it lacks a physical body, it has no Strength score. Theoretically, an incorporeal creature may have a Constitution score, but such a creature would be strange indeed. In any case, incorporeal creatures don't need to eat, drink, or breathe. In fact, they cannot do these things because they have no Strength scores and they can't affect physical objects (or even air).
The "sleep" is funny question: since type is unchanged, and neither Incorporeal subtype, nor even Con nonability remove need for sleep...



Being able to touch something is not inherently an attack.
Ahem...

Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.
Trip or Grapple don't even do damage by itself (at least - usually)


As for limited actions:

Restricted Activity

In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round’s worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free actions as normal). You can’t take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).
The template only restricts you from making standard actions. Free actions are still available which include swifts and immediates.

The template does not prohibit the acquisition of attacks. I would say that a quickened spell could be cast and used to attack.
That's - in general cases
Nothing in this quote explains why Disembodied Spirit is incapable to AoO (which isn't even an action at all)

[loky1109]

Counterpoint: can't speak and can't take move actions aren't contradictory either. Specifying both doesn't make one of them not true or meaningless.

Do you mean free, not move?

Yes, this two "can't"s aren't contradictory. But "can't speak" is excessive if "can't take move free actions" is true. This is logics.

[Psyren]

Do you mean free, not move?

Yes, this two "can't"s aren't contradictory. But "can't speak" is excessive if "can't take move free actions" is true. This is logics.

It is also logical that one stipulation being more "excessive" than the other is irrelevant if both can be simultaneously true, which these can.

If your doctor tells you both "you're on a liquid diet for the next fortnight" and "don't eat red meat", concluding "he specifically prohibited red meat, so chicken wings must be okay" still violates the first rule. Similarly, "Speaking is specifically prohibited, so other free actions must be okay" doesn't supersede "you can only take move actions."

[Thurbane]

Being able to touch something is not inherently an attack.

As for limited actions:


Restricted Activity

In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round’s worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free actions as normal). You can’t take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).

The template only restricts you from making standard actions. Free actions are still available which include swifts and immediates.

The template does not prohibit the acquisition of attacks. I would say that a quickened spell could be cast and used to attack.

That citation was written before swift and immediate actions existed (they were introduced in MH, after the 3.5 PHB and SRD), so that may be why they are not called out. The RC has an updated version:


RESTRICTED ACTIVITY
A few situations make you unable to take a full round’s worth of actions. In such cases, you’re allowed to take only a single standard action or a single move action, along with allowed swift, immediate, and free actions. You can’t take a full-round action and finish that action, but you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action.

To me, that indicates the DS should be able to take swift, immediate and free actions, although the word "allowed" being in there makes it a little more ambiguous.

[loky1109]

It is also logical that one stipulation being more "excessive" than the other is irrelevant if both can be simultaneously true, which these can.

If there is an exception (DS can't speak), there should be the rule (DS can do free actions), even if rule isn't wrote explicitly.


If your doctor tells you both "you're on a liquid diet for the next fortnight" and "don't eat red meat"
then one of us is fool. I or my doctor.

Context of "you can only take move actions." isn't clear. It is about attacks, so free actions can be out of subject.

[Jack_Simth]

then one of us is fool. I or my doctor.Blenders and grinders are things that exist. It is possible to have red meat in a liquid diet, and if you blend those chicken wings fine enough and mix it with a suitable liquid, you meat both "liquid diet" and "no red meat" criteria. Although it's hard to call them chicken wings at that point.

Also, given just how many errors and redundancies made print, I wouldn't want to need to defend the claim that there were no fools amongst the WotC writing staff. Given how many players exist, and assuming that most D&D players are human, I also wouldn't want to need to defend the claim that there are no fools among the player base.



...

Also, you don't need the wayback machine for The Article in Question (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030924a).

[Darg]

To me, that indicates the DS should be able to take swift, immediate and free actions, although the word "allowed" being in there makes it a little more ambiguous.

I haven't come across anything that restricts your actions and spells out that it still "allows" you to take free actions and their equivalent.

Even using the original rules, the swift/immediate action rule is that you can use your swift action any time you could a free action and using an immediate action is the same as using a swift on your turn or using the swift of your upcoming turn. The original rule would allow you to take free actions even when nauseated. The template, unlike nauseated, only specifies that you don't have attacks, not that you are unable to attack.

[loky1109]

Blenders and grinders are things that exist.

Good point.

[Bronk]

It's a weird template, for sure.

Can we all shed a tear for this poor, dumb, lich? He's 'smart' enough to build a portal that can separate a soul from its body, trap it at the first location, turn it incorporeal, and then keep the soul from either leaving or becoming an undead, while also keeping this information from all scrying spells, from divine knowledge, and from the inevitables, while forgetting that he now has a ton of dead bodies at the second location that are all perfectly ready to be animated into skeletons and zombies with a simple third level spell? Perhaps in a spell trap or whatever?

I'll add another shed tear for the author, who was so rushed (I hope) that he screwed up everything about portals and souls by badly ripping off the ghost template.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As a rule, the only way to get rid of a disembodied spirit for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace.Disembodied dwarf, thinking to itself: "I was pushed through that stupid portal! That's why I'm like this! If only someone could unpush me back through? Wait, that doesn't make any sense."

How do you undo that, exactly?

[Thurbane]

The template was created as a plot contrivance for an adventure - it was a neat idea and adventure hook, for sure, but the author probably could have been a lot clearer on the mechanical side of how the template works.

Also, using the Ghost mechanic of "cannot be laid to rest until the reason for it's restlessness is discovered and addressed" seems really weird, since the template is basically the result a malignant magic effect. It's not like their spirits are wandering because they never finished that jigsaw puzzle on the coffee table at home. I would assume that destroying the portal that created them would meet the condition of laying them to rest, since that is addressing the cause of their restlessness?

The fluff indicates that the separated bodies survive for a time before dying. Is the death from dehydration or malnutrition? Would turning them to stone or otherwise putting them in some kind of stasis prevent the death? If someone Magic Jar's or otherwise possesses the body, does it still die?

Additionally, no method is really given for how to return the body to life. Will a simple Raise Dead work, or can the body not be raised until the spirit is freed? Is the portal considered a "death effect" requiring a Resurrection or better?

Like I said, really neat adventure hook, but so many unanswered questions. I'm thinking of actually writing one of these portals into my campaign, but I'll have to homebrew or houserule a bunch of info on how stuff works first.

Looks like the author, Robert Wiese, wrote a few of the free WotC short adventures: Jungle Secrets, Legend of the Silver Skeleton (which I quite enjoyed), Sheep's Clothing, Shoals of Intrigue, War of Dragons and Wreck Ashore.

https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Robert%20Wiese
https://index.rpg.net/display-search.phtml?key=contributor&value=Robert+Wiese

[Thurbane]

Thread I saw today made me realise the similarities between this template, and the effect of the Void card from DoMT.


The Void
This black card spells instant disaster. The character’s body continues to function, as though comatose, but her psyche is trapped in a prison somewhere—in an object on a far plane or planet, possibly in the possession of an outsider. A wish or a miracle does not bring the character back, instead merely revealing the plane of entrapment. Draw no more cards.

Not sure that adds any useful info to this conversation, but I found it interesting...

[Doctor Despair]

Thread I saw today made me realise the similarities between this template, and the effect of the Void card from DoMT.



Not sure that adds any useful info to this conversation, but I found it interesting...

Now, if a Disembodied Spirit with Ghostly Grasp drew the Void card, would it somehow separate your incorporeal non-body from your psyche, or just send the whole package to the prison?