RKV on a Crusader/Ur-Priest?

[Elric VIII]

I have a character idea for an anti-divine warrior. My plan is to go with a base of Human Paragon 1/Crusader 4/Ur-Priest 2+. Human Paragon gets me the requisite skills/saves and can advance Ur-Priest while not losing much (is steal spell-like ability as mediocre as the spellthief one?)

Ur-Priest "catches up" to a normal cleric at level 12, RKV delays that to 14, but other than that, I'm not sure if the enhanced martial progression is worth giving up divine SR and siphon spell power. It's been a long time since I've played 3.5, so I don't even remember if there are any super good maneuvers I'd be giving up besides maybe white raven tactics. What is your opinion here?


Additionally, I have the option of going Crusader 3 and throwing in a 1-level dip (maybe Warblade) if I don't go with RKV. I don't lose anything meaningful since my next initiator class would be Crusader at level 16.

[Particle_Man]

Isn’t there a conflict between RKV, a servant of the goddess Wee Jas, and a charter that is explicitly anti-divine like Ur-Priest?

[Thurbane]

Fluffwise, not at all compatible, but a lot of people seem to handwave that.

[CIDE]

The entry for RKV specifically calls out other variations existing. It's a DM Thing but everyone seems to forget that they fully expected other versions to exist.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The entry for RKV specifically calls out other variations existing. It's a DM Thing but everyone seems to forget that they fully expected other versions to exist.

The same adaptation section that says:
you could easily adapt it to crusaders devoted to almost any other deity.
The fluff issue isn't on the part of the RKV; but on part of the ur-priest. Specifically, the entire "Ur-priests despise gods" bit, which is literally the first sentence of the class.

Mechanically, there's nothing stopping it. Not worshipping a deity isn't actually a requirement, merely the inability to cast divine spells is the Special Requirement on ur-priest.

Hence Thurbane's answer.

[Elric VIII]

The fluff part is not an issue, I have already cleared that with my DM. I worship ancestral spirits that give me crusader inspiration and steal power from deities for me. RKV would be based on those same ancestral spirits.

For now I'm just interested in the mechanical interactions and any help on that front.

[Particle_Man]

What is your DM’s opinion on whether or not RKV’s Divine Impetus takes a standard action?

[Lorddenorstrus]

What is your DM’s opinion on whether or not RKV’s Divine Impetus takes a standard action?

Well it would be completely useless if it just changed a standard into a Swift.... So I would hope that's not the case for anyone sane. RKV +1 swift action isn't inherently game breaking. If it was, Belt of battle would be banned.

[Particle_Man]

I think there is some cheese that can be generated with getting, say, 8 swift actions in a round. But it is up to what the OP’s DM.

[Elric VIII]

I think there is some cheese that can be generated with getting, say, 8 swift actions in a round. But it is up to what the OP’s DM.

That's unlikely to be an issue since I won't be using DMM quicken and/or Night Sticks. Most likely it will just let me cast a quickened buff and boost in the same round.

[Albanymusicfund]

My advice is to not do this to your DM. Unless he is explicitly okay with OP characters, it would be wrong for him to have to scale the encounter differently because you're destroying everyone. You will also likely overshadow the other PCs by doing this.

[Lorddenorstrus]

My advice is to not do this to your DM. Unless he is explicitly okay with OP characters, it would be wrong for him to have to scale the encounter differently because you're destroying everyone. You will also likely overshadow the other PCs by doing this.

Ok so player 2 enters with a Wizard and picks standard batman spells. He's probably gonna feel more op than the cleric whos using multi actions to basically just be a different version of Clericzilla. Cleric going smash is the least of any good DMs worry. It's strong not game breaking. You have to intentionally abuse something for it to be game breaking.

Everyone is assuming because a build exists that uses RKV brokenly. Every version of it built must be that broken. That's not even in the slightest how it works. If this was the case nobody would allow a wizard in their games. Because 'all wizards could be tippy level wizards. See the bad line of logic there? Not every version of RKV built is going to try and snap balance. I made a version with PrC paladin to get 1st lvl paladin spells. With a certain feat all Paladin spells are swift, bam now you can cast Divine Sacrifice swift + some other stuff as part of a per round big attack. It was a very fun functional character.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ok so player 2 enters with a Wizard and picks standard batman spells. He's probably gonna feel more op than the cleric whos using multi actions to basically just be a different version of Clericzilla. Cleric going smash is the least of any good DMs worry. It's strong not game breaking. You have to intentionally abuse something for it to be game breaking.

Everyone is assuming because a build exists that uses RKV brokenly. Every version of it built must be that broken. That's not even in the slightest how it works. If this was the case nobody would allow a wizard in their games. Because 'all wizards could be tippy level wizards. See the bad line of logic there? Not every version of RKV built is going to try and snap balance. I made a version with PrC paladin to get 1st lvl paladin spells. With a certain feat all Paladin spells are swift, bam now you can cast Divine Sacrifice swift + some other stuff as part of a per round big attack. It was a very fun functional character.

To be fair, RKV is one of the better cleric prestige classes. So you'd be talking "no sane DM would allow Incantatrix", not "nobody would allow wizard." And no sane DM allows Incantatrix, even though you could be using it to optimize fireball or something. OP is asking for advice on combining two extremely potent prestige classes; yes, we're going to assume that they're going for a broken build.

[Albanymusicfund]

Ok so player 2 enters with a Wizard and picks standard batman spells. He's probably gonna feel more op than the cleric whos using multi actions to basically just be a different version of Clericzilla. Cleric going smash is the least of any good DMs worry. It's strong not game breaking. You have to intentionally abuse something for it to be game breaking.

Everyone is assuming because a build exists that uses RKV brokenly. Every version of it built must be that broken. That's not even in the slightest how it works. If this was the case nobody would allow a wizard in their games. Because 'all wizards could be tippy level wizards. See the bad line of logic there? Not every version of RKV built is going to try and snap balance. I made a version with PrC paladin to get 1st lvl paladin spells. With a certain feat all Paladin spells are swift, bam now you can cast Divine Sacrifice swift + some other stuff as part of a per round big attack. It was a very fun functional character.

I'm not even opposed to RKV or martial maneuvers they are wonderful! The problem is combination with Ur-Priest is that it gets 9th levels spells in only 10 levels. This is indisputably broken. I am referring to the cleric side because OP hasn't said he's going to be a Wizard slinging Glitterdust-enhanced fireballs or anything like that.

[Elric VIII]

I'm not even opposed to RKV or martial maneuvers they are wonderful! The problem is combination with Ur-Priest is that it gets 9th levels spells in only 10 levels. This is indisputably broken. I am referring to the cleric side because OP hasn't said he's going to be a Wizard slinging Glitterdust-enhanced fireballs or anything like that.

While I appreciate the editorializing on what power level is acceptable in my group, it's not really relevant to the topic. I encourage you to consider that we are all adults and understand the concept of mutual enjoyment of the game and can adjust accordingly. I'm mostly just interested in people helping me to understand the opportunity cost in the choice of mechanics I am considering.

[Lorddenorstrus]

While I appreciate the editorializing on what power level is acceptable in my group, it's not really relevant to the topic. I encourage you to consider that we are all adults and understand the concept of mutual enjoyment of the game and can adjust accordingly. I'm mostly just interested in people helping me to understand the opportunity cost in the choice of mechanics I am considering.

@ OP are Flaws allowed in your game? Because glancing at your build in comparison to one I've used before for RKV. You can use Laborious Training to meet the 8 skill rank in Int skills up to 2 lvls earlier and Otyugh Hole to 3k into Iron Will or Flaw into it from lvl 1 and you can find yourself as an RKV by like lvl 5 or 6. The only real constrainer is your total feats. Laborious is taken at lvl 3 you catch up skill requirements that lvl. But you need Iron Will you have the WBL for it by 4th lvl but a Bonus Feat from a flaw would be quicker entry. Honestly I don't think you need Human Paragon. Crusader like 1-3 cheese entry into Ur 4,5 and then slap into RKV.

Also sorry about the convo going off topic slightly. I got reaallly annoyed that almost every response to you was just "we are right you are wrong do not do that." RKV can be used fine lol. Not every freakin one is gonna be built to break games. I would say doing it like I did is mega cheesy vs your plan and you get 9th lvl spells at lvl 14. So, yeah keep that in mind. When I did it there were more dead lvls from me squeezing other PrCs in to get certain abilities so I got 9ths by 16 or 17.

[Elric VIII]

@ OP are Flaws allowed in your game? Because glancing at your build in comparison to one I've used before for RKV. You can use Laborious Training to meet the 8 skill rank in Int skills up to 2 lvls earlier and Otyugh Hole to 3k into Iron Will or Flaw into it from lvl 1 and you can find yourself as an RKV by like lvl 5 or 6. The only real constrainer is your total feats. Laborious is taken at lvl 3 you catch up skill requirements that lvl. But you need Iron Will you have the WBL for it by 4th lvl but a Bonus Feat from a flaw would be quicker entry. Honestly I don't think you need Human Paragon. Crusader like 1-3 cheese entry into Ur 4,5 and then slap into RKV.

Otyugh Hole is probably not going to be allowed, but flaws are definitely a good idea. I think inattentive would be a great to make my link with ancestral spirits look like the trope of the psychic that's not 100% there. Are there official flaws beyond the ones in the SRD?

Human Paragon is there because I also need +3 will save. Choosing all of my class skills and the adaptive learning would give me some more skill points to play with since spellcraft/hide are cross-class. I'd also want concentration, obviously. Realistically, I could have used Bard in place of paragon for the will save/skills, but we're going to have a PrC Bard and I didn't want to step on his toes.

Although I'm going to avoid breaking the ECL/2 spell level progression, early entry could smooth my maneuver and stance progression. I've never heard of laborious training, is that in an WotC book?


Also sorry about the convo going off topic slightly. I got reaallly annoyed that almost every response to you was just "we are right you are wrong do not do that." RKV can be used fine lol. Not every freakin one is gonna be built to break games. I would say doing it like I did is mega cheesy vs your plan and you get 9th lvl spells at lvl 14. So, yeah keep that in mind. When I did it there were more dead lvls from me squeezing other PrCs in to get certain abilities so I got 9ths by 16 or 17.

Yeah, I feel the same way. My group is all older, so no one is trying to "win" anymore, we just like to play higher powered. We also have a largely unspoken agreement not to screw with the general setting dynamics by exploiting things like selling walls of salt or creating infinite armies of summons/undead/golems/awakened stuff.

I'm not actually getting 9ths at 14, it's just that level 12 (or 14 with RKV) is when I end up with the same spell level as a normal full caster of my character level. I'll be alternating crusader levels afterwards to stay on par with the other casters.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Otyugh Hole is probably not going to be allowed, but flaws are definitely a good idea. I think inattentive would be a great to make my link with ancestral spirits look like the trope of the psychic that's not 100% there. Are there official flaws beyond the ones in the SRD?

Human Paragon is there because I also need +3 will save. Choosing all of my class skills and the adaptive learning would give me some more skill points to play with since spellcraft/hide are cross-class. I'd also want concentration, obviously. Realistically, I could have used Bard in place of paragon for the will save/skills, but we're going to have a PrC Bard and I didn't want to step on his toes.

Although I'm going to avoid breaking the ECL/2 spell level progression, early entry could smooth my maneuver and stance progression. I've never heard of laborious training, is that in an WotC book?



Yeah, I feel the same way. My group is all older, so no one is trying to "win" anymore, we just like to play higher powered. We also have a largely unspoken agreement not to screw with the general setting dynamics by exploiting things like selling walls of salt or creating infinite armies of summons/undead/golems/awakened stuff.

I'm not actually getting 9ths at 14, it's just that level 12 (or 14 with RKV) is when I end up with the same spell level as a normal full caster of my character level. I'll be alternating crusader levels afterwards to stay on par with the other casters.

My bad i charted out the skills redone w/ Laborious training to recalc an early entry and completely forgot the +3 will save part. Yeah Paragon Human would give you absolute access to every skill as a class skill you need. Paragon 1st, Crusader 2, (if you flawed Iron Will and took Spell Focus Evil 1st and Laborious at 3rd) you should meet entry req of Ur by 4th. then go to 5th as Ur. 6th lvl Entry into RKV. If you find room I would suggest 1 lvl of Prestige Paladin, 1st level +1 Divine Spellcasting class and every Paladin spell is added to your spell list. There's a few nice paladin spells and the Feat : Battle Blessing makes every "paladin" spell a Swift Action to cast. So that + RKVs Swift Actions means you can use Divine Sacrifice, Rhino Rush and a few other nice spells that only paladins have on the quick. That's what I did :smallsmile: I used the build as an example of how the swift action could be used. The party I played in at the time was forgetting a lot of their optional swift action stuff. So I swapped character and basically over used Swifts to ****. I think it worked out they all started to remember their own swift action things. This was awhile ago though... atm I'm stuck in Perma DM mode.

[Elric VIII]

My bad i charted out the skills redone w/ Laborious training to recalc an early entry and completely forgot the +3 will save part. Yeah Paragon Human would give you absolute access to every skill as a class skill you need. Paragon 1st, Crusader 2, (if you flawed Iron Will and took Spell Focus Evil 1st and Laborious at 3rd) you should meet entry req of Ur by 4th. then go to 5th as Ur. 6th lvl Entry into RKV. If you find room I would suggest 1 lvl of Prestige Paladin, 1st level +1 Divine Spellcasting class and every Paladin spell is added to your spell list. There's a few nice paladin spells and the Feat : Battle Blessing makes every "paladin" spell a Swift Action to cast. So that + RKVs Swift Actions means you can use Divine Sacrifice, Rhino Rush and a few other nice spells that only paladins have on the quick. That's what I did :smallsmile: I used the build as an example of how the swift action could be used. The party I played in at the time was forgetting a lot of their optional swift action stuff. So I swapped character and basically over used Swifts to ****. I think it worked out they all started to remember their own swift action things. This was awhile ago though... atm I'm stuck in Perma DM mode.

That's a nice interaction with PrC Pal, but I think that would fall into the territory of too much for my group. Although the mechanical concept is pretty similar, since I would use quickened low level buffs and maneuvers to fill my action economy.