Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

[Trafalgar]

So Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/09/dune-clip-timothee-chalamet-josh-brolin) has posted a clip from the movie showing Brolin as Gurney Halleck and Chalamet as Paul Atreides sparring with shields.

My thoughts:

I like the presentation of the shields better than what I saw in the other trailers. I especially like how it goes red if the shield is penetrated.

I remember this scene from the book. I think they have shortened it a bit but that's normal for a movie adaption. I remember in the book, Paul has time to wonder if Gurney has betrayed the Atreides because of how hard he attacks. This bodes well that they are trying to stay true to the book.

I initially thought Timothee Chalamet was a bad choice but that's because I didn't like him in "The King" on Netflix. Now I think he was a bad choice for Henry V but might be an alright choice for a young Paul Atreides.

What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

[Catullus64]

Well, the camera stays steadily fixed on the action, and doesn't cut between incoherent closeups every half a second. That already puts it above 75% of modern action cinema. Bravo.

I like how they've really captured the misdirection that is the essence of shield-fighting: the fast, direct attacks get deflected and are used mainly to throw the enemy off-balance or elicit a response. Only when Paul gets Gurney on the ground (and lets his guard down) do either of them have the opening for the slow attacks needed to bypass the shield.

When I saw the red shimmer in the trailers, I assumed it was meant to be blood vibrating on the shield edges. Just having it be a warning light is slightly less stylish, but maybe it's both.

[Fyraltari]

I am really hyped for this movie, but I find Paul's shirt here kind of funny for an epic space-opera.

"When you have to topple an empire and avenge your father at nine and sell insurance at ten" kind of look.

[Ionathus]

Eh, I prefer the original (https://youtu.be/KYUolurihOQ?t=60).

Okay, that was a joke, but I do think something about the new shields feels...fuzzy?

On the subject of Sci-Fi forcefields, I don't mind a clearer delineation for when a shield has done its job, or what the boundaries are for the defenses. Obviously I don't want polygon wireframes fighting each other, but in the past 10 years it's felt like a lot of Sci-Fi special effects come down to "energy wobble." The energy wobbles here are done well -- I'm looking forward to the final product -- but they also feel kind of generic. I feel like the live-action The Giver, Hunger Games, Divergent... their energy effects all give off that same vibe of "blurry blue fuzz that does whatever we want it to do."


I am really hyped for this movie, but I find Paul's shirt here kind of funny for an epic space-opera.

"When you have to topple an empire and avenge your father at nine and sell insurance at ten" kind of look.

Man, I would love it if our dress code allowed for this kind of shirt. The short collar and poet-style flap at the top is maybe a tiny bit like a modern dress shirt, but I think it's suitably different in design. Feels more like a generic white shirt you could put in a majority of fictional universes and pass off convincingly as "non-Earth" -- there are only so many ways you can design a practical upper-torso covering.

Coincidentally, my partner just walked in 30 minutes ago and asked my opinion on her new white shirt that had a slightly unconventional cut: "does this look like I'm dressed to hang out with friends, or I'm dressed to welcome another spaceship to the dystopian colony I live on?"

[truemane]

"does this look like I'm dressed to hang out with friends, or I'm dressed to welcome another spaceship to the dystopian colony I live on?"

Porque no los dos?

[Ionathus]

Porque no los dos?

Because we're all out of Socialization Credits, unfortunately, but the Gracious Arbiter says we'll get more if we just do a few murders on the Factionless finish our schoolwork.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Coincidentally, my partner just walked in 30 minutes ago and asked my opinion on her new white shirt that had a slightly unconventional cut: "does this look like I'm dressed to hang out with friends, or I'm dressed to welcome another spaceship to the dystopian colony I live on?"

It makes a nice change from "does my {anatomy} look big in this?"

[Trafalgar]

One problem with making a film adaption of an epic novel like Dune is including all the detailed world building for audience members who haven't read the book. I assume that most GitP members have read Dune at least once. Many, like myself, have read it numerous times. But how does the film explain personal shields to a viewer who hasn't read the books.

The Lynch version did a lot of whispered monologue for exposition dumps, which often gives that movie a very weird feel. I seem to recall the Sci Fi Channel Dune mini series dumped shields all together. That's why the various armies had rifles and machine guns. I will be curious to see how the new movie handles world building issues issue like this. How does melange work? Why is melange so important? Why do the Sardaukar kick butt? Why do the Fremen kick more butt? Who are the Bene Gesserit? The Spacing Guild? The houses of the Landsraad? etc. etc. etc.

One thing I find interesting is they are focusing on Gurney Halleck's hatred of Harkonnens. I hope they are not forgetting Gurney Halleck the musician or the quotable Gurney Halleck who would say things like “Behold, as a wild ass in the desert, go I forth to my work.”

[Cikomyr2]

One thing I find interesting is they are focusing on Gurney Halleck's hatred of Harkonnens. I hope they are not forgetting Gurney Halleck the musician or the quotable Gurney Halleck who would say things like “Behold, as a wild ass in the desert, go I forth to my work.”

Let's be honest. Halleck's deep-seated hatred of the Harkonnens is lot more plot relevant than the fact that he can curry a fudging tune.

It has absolutely no bearing on the plot or Gurney's character except that at some point someone says "hey Gurney sings something"

[Mechalich]

On the subject of Sci-Fi forcefields, I don't mind a clearer delineation for when a shield has done its job, or what the boundaries are for the defenses. Obviously I don't want polygon wireframes fighting each other, but in the past 10 years it's felt like a lot of Sci-Fi special effects come down to "energy wobble." The energy wobbles here are done well -- I'm looking forward to the final product -- but they also feel kind of generic. I feel like the live-action The Giver, Hunger Games, Divergent... their energy effects all give off that same vibe of "blurry blue fuzz that does whatever we want it to do."


VFX Houses in Hollywood are all using the same basic technological systems. As a result there are certain approaches that are effective and economical and different groups converge upon similar methods as a result. 'Blurry blue fuzz' is apparently a workable effect that scales easily, so you see it over and over again.

[Cikomyr2]

VFX Houses in Hollywood are all using the same basic technological systems. As a result there are certain approaches that are effective and economical and different groups converge upon similar methods as a result. 'Blurry blue fuzz' is apparently a workable effect that scales easily, so you see it over and over again.

I do think we have reached a level of comprehension in people's concept of sci-fi that the common public understands "blue shield safe, red shield danger". The details are not really important to the story.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Well, the film has apparantly gone down well in Venice (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58438957)...

(Although apparantly the Times isn't impressed, which may even be a point in favour...)

[Eldan]

Eh, even the Times calls it "visually jaw-dropping". Though they seem to give it 2/5 stars for being "boring". (Paywall, so I only read the first two paragraphs.) Which, I'm fine with? I like visual spectacle, I know Villeneuve is really good at visual spectacle. If it's actually good on top of that, that's a bonus for me. Though, I know people and reviewers who thought Blade Runner 2049 and Arrival were boring. Or the book. So, chances are I'll like the pacing of this one, too.

Anyway, I got lucky. There's only one mid-sized cinema in the city where I'm currently studying, and they stopped doing movies in English during the pandemic, since apparently not enough people went to see those. Except, it seems, the pre-premiere of Dune next week, which is the first English movie they are showing this year.. One show in English, their smallest theatre, at 1/3 capacity due to pandemic rules... and it sold out about ten minutes after I got my ticket. Seems me and about 20 other lucky nerds will get to see it next Wednesday.

[Cicciograna]

Eh, I prefer the original (https://youtu.be/KYUolurihOQ?t=60).

Okay, that was a joke, but I do think something about the new shields feels...fuzzy?

Was it really a joke? I have yet to meet anybody who didn't like Lynch's "Dune" even if everybody is quick to add that it's some sort of forbidden pleasure. Hell, I did that too from time to time. Yes, I do like Lynch's movie.

Can we finally admit that it's not a bad movie - or at least that it's so bad it's good?

[Catullus64]

Was it really a joke? I have yet to meet anybody who didn't like Lynch's "Dune" even if everybody is quick to add that it's some sort of forbidden pleasure. Hell, I did that too from time to time. Yes, I do like Lynch's movie.

Can we finally admit that it's not a bad movie - or at least that it's so bad it's good?

Can't admit that, sorry. Everyone I know who doesn't loathe the movie doesn't exactly like it either, but is somewhat fascinated by it. It watches like an incredibly expensive teleplay, and it never solves the issue of hammering Dune's intricate world and sprawling tale into the shape of an actual film.

I also don't think that "so bad it's good" is an apt label to describe any film so stiff and ponderous. There are plenty of things that are good in Dune '84, (the casting, a lot of the set and costume design, the score) but they're all structured around a script which is too fastidiously detailed and yet somehow vague.

All that said, I will forecast that Villeneuve's Dune will probably be a decidedly less weird film than Lynch's, even though it will probably be a better and stronger film for it, and we can regard that as a sad if necessary loss. I thought the same thing about his Blade Runner 2049 in comparison with its predecessor (which was a much better film than Lynch's Dune).

[Ionathus]

Can't admit that, sorry. Everyone I know who doesn't loathe the movie doesn't exactly like it either, but is somewhat fascinated by it. It watches like an incredibly expensive teleplay, and it never solves the issue of hammering Dune's intricate world and sprawling tale into the shape of an actual film.

I also don't think that "so bad it's good" is an apt label to describe any film so stiff and ponderous. There are plenty of things that are good in Dune '84, (the casting, a lot of the set and costume design, the score) but they're all structured around a script which is too fastidiously detailed and yet somehow vague.

All that said, I will forecast that Villeneuve's Dune will probably be a decidedly less weird film than Lynch's, even though it will probably be a better and stronger film for it, and we can regard that as a sad if necessary loss. I thought the same thing about his Blade Runner 2049 in comparison with its predecessor (which was a much better film than Lynch's Dune).

I'm probably in "so bad it's good" territory on it. Things can be so stiff and ponderous that they come out funny, and that's a great description of Lynch's Dune. It was certainly one of the most interesting things I've watched, in the way that being at your friend's family Thanksgiving while the extended relatives argue is interesting, but that doesn't make it enjoyable or well-constructed.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Was it really a joke? I have yet to meet anybody who didn't like Lynch's "Dune" even if everybody is quick to add that it's some sort of forbidden pleasure. Hell, I did that too from time to time. Yes, I do like Lynch's movie.

Can we finally admit that it's not a bad movie - or at least that it's so bad it's good?

It was interesting and engaging for the most part. The visuals were good to stunning, a lot of the imagery was quite good and I sat through it in the theatre quite happily. I wouldn't call it a bad movie per-se...

...but it was a very poor adaptation. Made worse because to understand the movie you really had to have read the book, and if you had read the book you could see the holes in the adaptation.

As I've said elsewhere, an adaptation is judged on two broad metrics - is it a good film in its own right? and is it a good adaptation of the source material?

It's swings and roundabouts - sometimes the film is good enough to carry the deficiencies of the adaptation, sometimes the quality of adaptation pulls the film down with it. Dune, unfortunately, falls into the latter category - at least, for me.

[Cikomyr2]

It was interesting and engaging for the most part. The visuals were good to stunning, a lot of the imagery was quite good and I sat through it in the theatre quite happily. I wouldn't call it a bad movie per-se...

...but it was a very poor adaptation. Made worse because to understand the movie you really had to have read the book, and if you had read the book you could see the holes in the adaptation.

As I've said elsewhere, an adaptation is judged on two broad metrics - is it a good film in its own right? and is it a good adaptation of the source material?

It's swings and roundabouts - sometimes the film is good enough to carry the deficiencies of the adaptation, sometimes the quality of adaptation pulls the film down with it. Dune, unfortunately, falls into the latter category - at least, for me.

People conflict "adaptation" with "recreation"

Adaptation means getting the core of the story, character, and transposing it in the new media in a way that's coherent and pleasant to the audience. It does not mean replicating every flippin' beat of the original work.

For example, someone mentionned earlier that the Chalamet/Brolin clip does not take the time to explain that you need a slow blade to penetrate the shield. Thing is, that detail is technically not important in the slightest*. What's important is that there's a shield that makes you invulnerable but care and skill allows you to penetrate it. THAT is what needs to be understood by the audience. Having a character explain why the shield protects but how you can beat it adds maybe 1-2 minutes of pointless dialogue in your movie when you can demonstrate it with a good fight coegraphy in 15 seconds.

Having the same "beat" as the written word, but faster and crisper, is the point of a good movie. An image is worth a thousand word, and a movie scene is worth a million when done well.


*The Shields in the original books was always an analogy of the conflict of the Landsrad Houses in the Duneverse, and how direct and violent blows between houses would never resolve any fight. To properly injure your opponent in Landsraad politics, you had to be slow, deliberate and sneaky. But Fremen don't have shield, nothing protects them, so they had to learn to overcome that disadvantage.

[Manga Shoggoth]

People conflict "adaptation" with "recreation"

Adaptation means getting the core of the story, character, and transposing it in the new media in a way that's coherent and pleasant to the audience. It does not mean replicating every flippin' beat of the original work.

Agreed, adaptation does not mean "replicating every flippin' beat of the original work". And I have never said that it does.

But whether you claim to be "adapting" or "recreating" something you are still working from a base, and your work should be judged on how you deal with that. At the extreme end if you offer up something that has the same character names but is otherwise has no relationship to the original, then it is nether a good adaptation or recreation.

There is some flexibility in this - I remember someone pointing out that Starship Troopers (the film) is good, not because it follows the form and message of the book, but because it was putting forward completely the opposite view.



For example, someone mentionned earlier that the Chalamet/Brolin clip does not take the time to explain that you need a slow blade to penetrate the shield. Thing is, that detail is technically not important in the slightest*. What's important is that there's a shield that makes you invulnerable but care and skill allows you to penetrate it. THAT is what needs to be understood by the audience. Having a character explain why the shield protects but how you can beat it adds maybe 1-2 minutes of pointless dialogue in your movie when you can demonstrate it with a good fight coegraphy in 15 seconds.

If I recall, this is actually one of the things the Lynch film did well.

[Cikomyr2]

If I recall, this is actually one of the things the Lynch film did well.

Let's check!

https://youtu.be/MPMRZfDm9y8

It's way more theatrical. It's so alien man

[Manga Shoggoth]

Let's check!

https://youtu.be/MPMRZfDm9y8

It's way more theatrical. It's so alien man

Thank you - it saved me digging out the DVD.

I think the main difference book-wise is that they are merging in three scenes from the book into one Gurney, Hawat and Yueh talk to Paul seperately - One interesting thing that I had forgotten - they remembered to have the shields distort the voices (I think they are described as flattened in the book). The film had a lot of little things that looked odd, but were really in the book.

I always thought the shields looked odd, but it is an interesting half-way house between the smooth-curved shield that you generally put on a spaceship, and straight armour. I don't think skin-tight would have worked so well.

[Cikomyr2]

Thank you - it saved me digging out the DVD.

I think the main difference book-wise is that they are merging in three scenes from the book into one Gurney, Hawat and Yueh talk to Paul seperately - One interesting thing that I had forgotten - they remembered to have the shields distort the voices (I think they are described as flattened in the book). The film had a lot of little things that looked odd, but were really in the book.

I always thought the shields looked odd, but it is an interesting half-way house between the smooth-curved shield that you generally put on a spaceship, and straight armour. I don't think skin-tight would have worked so well.

Have you ever seen that same scene from the series?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtCedI-q9vU

I think the voice distortion is an error to keep in a movie. You need to have clear dialogue between people talking. It's fine in a book, but not in a visual/audio medium.

I think I preferred the theatrical fighting style of the Lynch movie compared to the series, but the scene was easier to understand in the series.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Have you ever seen that same scene from the series?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtCedI-q9vU

I think the voice distortion is an error to keep in a movie. You need to have clear dialogue between people talking. It's fine in a book, but not in a visual/audio medium.

I think I preferred the theatrical fighting style of the Lynch movie compared to the series, but the scene was easier to understand in the series.

And again I am indebted to you - I never saw the series (I don't think it came out over here, at least not on anything I had access to).

[Trafalgar]

Have you ever seen that same scene from the series?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtCedI-q9vU

I think the voice distortion is an error to keep in a movie. You need to have clear dialogue between people talking. It's fine in a book, but not in a visual/audio medium.

I think I preferred the theatrical fighting style of the Lynch movie compared to the series, but the scene was easier to understand in the series.

I like the lynch version better. This Gurney seems too old and tired.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I like the lynch version better. This Gurney seems too old and tired.

Paul also has more of a "teenage brat" vibe here. In the book he's a lot more mature (although not entirely); In the book the fight gets serious at the point that Gurney browbeats him for the "I'm not in the mood" comment.

[Trafalgar]

Paul also has more of a "teenage brat" vibe here. In the book he's a lot more mature (although not entirely); In the book the fight gets serious at the point that Gurney browbeats him for the "I'm not in the mood" comment.


Yes, Paul comes off as very arrogant. At this point in the story, Paul should not be easily defeating Gurney. This scene makes it seem like Paul is teaching Gurney, not Gurney teaching Paul.

[ereinion]

...but it was a very poor adaptation.

Frank Herbert himself disagrees with you on this. In the introduction to his 1985 short story collection Eye he writes


The hype machine grinded into action, telling people to expect the complete Dune. My efforts were enlisted. I joined in wholeheartedly because I enjoyed the film even as cut and I told it as I saw it: What reached the screen is a visual feast that begins as Dune begins and you hear my dialogue all through it.

[...]

Was it a success or a failure as a movie? I'm the wrong person to ask. Like me, Dune movie audiences, fans and newcomers, wanted more. They would have returned many times to see that "more." What they saw was true to my book, even though most of it stayed on the cutting room floor. Dune fans could supply the missing scenes in imagination but they still longed for those scenes.

It's been too long since I watched it myself to really say anything about it, but from what I recall I was mostly happy with it way back when.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Frank Herbert himself disagrees with you on this. In the introduction to his 1985 short story collection Eye he writes


The hype machine grinded into action, telling people to expect the complete Dune. My efforts were enlisted. I joined in wholeheartedly because I enjoyed the film even as cut and I told it as I saw it: What reached the screen is a visual feast that begins as Dune begins and you hear my dialogue all through it.

[...]

Was it a success or a failure as a movie? I'm the wrong person to ask. Like me, Dune movie audiences, fans and newcomers, wanted more. They would have returned many times to see that "more." What they saw was true to my book, even though most of it stayed on the cutting room floor. Dune fans could supply the missing scenes in imagination but they still longed for those scenes.

It's been too long since I watched it myself to really say anything about it, but from what I recall I was mostly happy with it way back when.

And he's welcome to his opinion. I imagine seeing your work going on to the big screen is pretty amazing, no matter what they do to the work (I note that he was wise enough to say "Was it a success or a failure as a movie? I'm the wrong person to ask.").

Oh, there's lots and lots of stuff in the film that is in the book - some of the oddest things turned out to be minor points in the book, or even in the appendicies. But lots of things were different, missed ther mark or flat out contradicted the book - up to and including the sandworms being wiped out at the end of the film.

(No. I'm not joking. At the end of the film Paul changes the climate of the planet, summoning a major storm which as far as we know is planet-wide. Remember what the slightest amount of water does to Sandworms?)

The big problem was that to understand the film you had to have read the book, and if you had read the book you could see what a poor job they had done with the film.

[Fyraltari]

Just saw it on opening night, after watching Lynch's version yesterday evening.

God damn, you can see the difference in budget and technical means. Now, this is a spectacular movie.

I really liked it. Every actor is perfect in their role and it completely sells you on the utter scale of this world.

A bit miffed that this is only the first half though. It does give the story the room it needs to breathe (especially when you see how dense Lynch's version was), but still, not a fan of cutting stories on half. Also I did find that the "escaping the Harkonnen sequence" dragged a bit too long.

Feyd-Rautha is nowhere to be seen, so I guess Raban will take over his role. That does diminish the Baron's cunning a bit since his whole "set up Raban to fail so the people will welcome Feyd" looks to be simple greed now. With Feyd are also gone any mention of the Baron's sexuality and, frankly, good riddance because that was just plainly homophobic. Also instead of being inexplicably ginger, the Harkonnen are now inexplicably bald. The Baron still hover, but since I find that cooler than just lifting his gut like in the book, it gets a pass.

One thing I did find weird was that Paul's visions make no mention of his future names. Gone are "tell me of the water of your world, Usul" and his armies chanting Muad'dib. Well they are chanting, but we don't get to hear it. With that said, the desert-mouse is prominently shown a few times, so I'm confident he will take on the name... When part 2 comes out.

[Eldan]

Just caught the pre-premiere, because it was also the only showing in my town that's actually in English. Anyway.

Short summary: as good as a Dune movie can be. Visually stunning. Many, many nitpicks.

The technical (non-spoilery):
As the trailers showed, the movie is weirdly monochromatic. Almost every scene is entirely grey, or entirely beige-brown, rarely something like a light blue or entirely red, but not much else. It makes the visuals pop less than they could, I think.

Many environments, like the palaces, or the city of Arakeen, also look weirdly sterile, especially combined with the washed-out colours. There's very little life or clutter anywhere, even on Caladan. Lots of gigantic stone halls with no furniture or any decoration except bas-reliefs, even in rooms that people are living in. You'd imagine that nobles would have a bit more ostentation.

Makes the uniforms and the ships look spectacular, though. And very fascist-brutalist.

Also, maybe just the cinema I was in but... everyone in this movie mumbles. Badly. Couldn't make out half the dialogue in some scenes. Doesn't usually happen to me with English movies, so something was weird. I felt like I needed subtitles.

Story-stuff (spoilery):

They made the Voice too magical again. The big Voice scene was the Thopter escape, where Paul and Jessica are tied up and Jessica is gagged. In the book, Jessica offers herself to the soldiers sexually, tempts them into acting unwisely, before they overwhelm them. In the movie, the soldiers make a few rapey comments, Paul orders them to remove her gag then she just barks out "KILL HIM AND FREE ME" and the soldier does just that.

The Atreides arrival on Arrakis needed a bit more time. In the movie, it feels like the Atreides arrive on the planet and just a day or two later, the sky is suddenly full of ships and they are all killed. Not a fan. I hate saying "in the book" too much, but in the book, the Atreides discuss their defences, possible Harkonnen attack routes, how many spies and saboteurs they have caught or killed, they organize their troops for an attack.

Tying into that, Thufir Hawat is in this for like two minutes and has like five lines. They cut out the plotline about the Atreides knowing there's a traitor and him suspecting Lady Jessica and all the politicking about the local houses and the smugglers.

Together, it makes the Atreides look like unprepared idiots, I felt. All their soldiers are asleep in the barracks, suddenly the skies are full of ships and then they get all killed after a short melee, instead of a prolonged battle with many landing points and fallback positions.

[Eldan]

So, anyone else actually seen it? I'd love to discuss the movie, but no one I know has seen it.

[Fyraltari]

So, anyone else actually seen it? I'd love to discuss the movie, but no one I know has seen it.

Err... Hello?


Just saw it on opening night, after watching Lynch's version yesterday evening.

God damn, you can see the difference in budget and technical means. Now, this is a spectacular movie.

I really liked it. Every actor is perfect in their role and it completely sells you on the utter scale of this world.

A bit miffed that this is only the first half though. It does give the story the room it needs to breathe (especially when you see how dense Lynch's version was), but still, not a fan of cutting stories on half. Also I did find that the "escaping the Harkonnen sequence" dragged a bit too long.

Feyd-Rautha is nowhere to be seen, so I guess Raban will take over his role. That does diminish the Baron's cunning a bit since his whole "set up Raban to fail so the people will welcome Feyd" looks to be simple greed now. With Feyd are also gone any mention of the Baron's sexuality and, frankly, good riddance because that was just plainly homophobic. Also instead of being inexplicably ginger, the Harkonnen are now inexplicably bald. The Baron still hover, but since I find that cooler than just lifting his gut like in the book, it gets a pass.

One thing I did find weird was that Paul's visions make no mention of his future names. Gone are "tell me of the water of your world, Usul" and his armies chanting Muad'dib. Well they are chanting, but we don't get to hear it. With that said, the desert-mouse is prominently shown a few times, so I'm confident he will take on the name... When part 2 comes out.

[Eldan]

Ah, ehm. Look over there, worm sign!

[Corey]

Well, the camera stays steadily fixed on the action, and doesn't cut between incoherent closeups every half a second. That already puts it above 75% of modern action cinema. Bravo.

I like how they've really captured the misdirection that is the essence of shield-fighting: the fast, direct attacks get deflected and are used mainly to throw the enemy off-balance or elicit a response. Only when Paul gets Gurney on the ground (and lets his guard down) do either of them have the opening for the slow attacks needed to bypass the shield.

When I saw the red shimmer in the trailers, I assumed it was meant to be blood vibrating on the shield edges. Just having it be a warning light is slightly less stylish, but maybe it's both.

It's actually more plausible in some ways than the book version.

The book explained that fast attacks were feints to let slow ones through, but begged the question as to why anybody would ever fall for that trick. The inclusion of hand-to-hand fighting techniques in the mix makes more sense.

(Obviously, there was plenty of that in the deathmatches with Jamis and Feyd, but the first was definitely not shielded, and I think the second wasn't either.)

[Corey]

Let's be honest. Halleck's deep-seated hatred of the Harkonnens is lot more plot relevant than the fact that he can curry a fudging tune.

It has absolutely no bearing on the plot or Gurney's character except that at some point someone says "hey Gurney sings something"

I sort of got the feeling that Gurney and Jessica had little crushes on each other ... but yeah, that's a story for after the book, not during it.

Speaking of that kind of thing, I recently read the Miles Vorkosigan book which is the romance between Cordelia and a second love (after Aral Vorosigan's death). It was surprisingly good. That said, I'm much friendlier to the romance genre than most males are.

[Fyraltari]

Ah, ehm. Look over there, worm sign!

Who earned the bonus?

[Eldan]

Who earned the bonus?

Well, you posted first.

But we can only carry three reviews per thread page, so we have to kick out the signatures.

[Cikomyr2]

You guys have special tickets to film festivals or what not?

Earlier I can see this thing is Oct 22nd

[Fyraltari]

Well, you posted first.

But we can only carry three reviews per thread page, so we have to kick out the signatures.
We'll just have to ask the heir of our forul to step out of the thread during the operation.

You guys have special tickets to film festivals or what not?

Earlier I can see this thing is Oct 22nd

The movie opened in theater on Wednesday in France. Doesn't it open this week where you are ?

[Cikomyr2]

We'll just have to ask the heir of our forul to step out of the thread during the operation.


The movie opened in theater on Wednesday in France. Doesn't it open this week where you are ?

October 22nd in Quebec :(

Which is crap, because Denis Villeneuve is a local boy

[Eldan]

Same for Germany. Opened here yesterday.

[Cikomyr2]

It's probably because the way Warner Brother screwed over their entire film industry this year.

When it releases in North America, it will be on HBO Max as well, right? So they obviously want the movie released outside of North America in theater first to try to rack up at least a modicum of international box office.

[Wintermoot]

It's not that unusual for the occasional wide release to release outside of America before it releases in America. Especially if they do a considerable amount of filming outside of America or are collecting some kind of tax breaks from Europe or Asia. Not sure if this movie is or not. But it's not an aberration or an unusual practice.

[Dragonus45]

It's not that unusual for the occasional wide release to release outside of America before it releases in America. Especially if they do a considerable amount of filming outside of America or are collecting some kind of tax breaks from Europe or Asia. Not sure if this movie is or not. But it's not an aberration or an unusual practice.

5 weeks is highly unusual though, and can be laid entirely at the feet of HBO max related piracy fears.

[Wintermoot]

5 weeks is highly unusual though, and can be laid entirely at the feet of HBO max related piracy fears.

entirely? I don't think so. Sure that might be a portion of it, but it's hardly the only, or even the main, consideration.

They wanted to premiere it in Europe at the Venice and Deuville festivals, which necessitated the release after in Europe, however they also want to premiere it in the U.S. at the New York festival that doesn't take place until Oct 7th and 8th. Normally, they'd release it after that, but Bond has the major format screens tied up for the two weeks directly after. So you end up third week in October.

But don't let reality get in the way of a good hate-filled seethe about HBO MAX. Gosh Darn Streamers and their Filthy New Paradigms. Trying to give people options to stay home instead of going out in the plague-lands with the mouth-breathers. Bastards.

[Dragonus45]

But don't let reality get in the way of a good hate-filled seethe about HBO MAX. Gosh Darn Streamers and their Filthy New Paradigms. Trying to give people options to stay home instead of going out in the plague-lands with the mouth-breathers. Bastards.

Well excuse me for stating the obvious facts instead of inventing some festival narrative that makes zero sense. Nice job responding entirely to nothing I actually said at the end there though.

[Wintermoot]

Well excuse me for stating the obvious facts instead of inventing some festival narrative that makes zero sense. Nice job responding entirely to nothing I actually said at the end there though.

There are multiple articles online about "the festival narrative." I actually did research rather than just making up my own "obvious facts."

[Dragonus45]

There are multiple articles online about "the festival narrative." I actually did research rather than just making up my own "obvious facts."

Yea it’s a nice little marketing push, I’m sure the studio exec who came up with it feels great about himself.

[Cikomyr2]

entirely? I don't think so. Sure that might be a portion of it, but it's hardly the only, or even the main, consideration.

They wanted to premiere it in Europe at the Venice and Deuville festivals, which necessitated the release after in Europe, however they also want to premiere it in the U.S. at the New York festival that doesn't take place until Oct 7th and 8th. Normally, they'd release it after that, but Bond has the major format screens tied up for the two weeks directly after. So you end up third week in October.

But don't let reality get in the way of a good hate-filled seethe about HBO MAX. Gosh Darn Streamers and their Filthy New Paradigms. Trying to give people options to stay home instead of going out in the plague-lands with the mouth-breathers. Bastards.

Regardless of the opinion of people you think are outdated, it's still true that releasing everything on HBO Max will mean less revenus distributed to the entire Warner Brother film studio and everyone who has stake in *theater release* revenue. Especially domestic box office revenue.

The corporation made a strategic choice by putting in on HBO Max, but they still borrowed from Paul to repay Peter.

[Bavarian itP]

I saw it yesterday and am very satisfied. I have some problems with Liet-Kynes presentation though her death scene was awesome, her "as a servant of the emperor, I am ordered to ignore this" TWICE (or even more often?) was not subtle enough. The soundtrack was great, but too loud, too obtrusive (is that the right word?) imo. Also not a fan of Jamis.

But these are minor problems, overall it's a great movie. The scene in the tent where Paul foresees the djihad was extremly powerful.
Cutting Feyd-Rautha was a bold move, but worked absolutely.

This exposition was well-handed, even if necessarily long.

The movie is easier accessible for people who don't know the books than the David Lynch version, but even then, I wonder if it is fully understood by such people. I was alone in the theatre since my friends didn't have time, so I had no opportunity to discuss it with people who didn't read the books.

edit: The revelation that Fremen ride on worms was too casually. That should have been the big surprise at the start of the second movie.

[Clertar]

I just watched it. What an incredibly well made film, I felt like watching it again once it was over and that very rarely happens. I also have the feeling that the attention to detail and the little breadcrumbs of lore probably reward multiple viewings significantly.

[Dire_Flumph]

Cutting Feyd-Rautha was a bold move, but worked absolutely.

After finishing it I was shocked at just how much had been cut out. No Shaddam IV, no Irulan, no Feyd, they didn't bother explaining a lot of the backstory, didn't really explain Mentats or Yueh's background.

And it worked. That stuff is great texture and worldbuilding, but watching the Lynch version which starts with 2 infodump scenes leading into another scene where the Emperor has to explain the whole plot to the audience makes this version look much more elegant. My wife was new to Dune and she had no trouble following what was going on.

I really wanted to see this movie's version of a Guild Navigator though.

[Fyraltari]

After finishing it I was shocked at just how much had been cut out. No Shaddam IV, no Irulan, no Feyd, they didn't bother explaining a lot of the backstory, didn't really explain Mentats or Yueh's background.

And it worked. That stuff is great texture and worldbuilding, but watching the Lynch version which starts with 2 infodump scenes leading into another scene where the Emperor has to explain the whole plot to the audience makes this version look much more elegant. My wife was new to Dune and she had no trouble following what was going on.

I really wanted to see this movie's version of a Guild Navigator though.

Irulan and Shaddam Corrino aren't in the book until the climax, they weren't cut from the movie. In the same line, I doubt we'd see a true fish-tank Navigator until they get around to adapt Messiah, which they won't unless they make massive profits on these two. I kinda wish they had left in the whole "Thufir suspects Jessica of being the traitor" plot, because without it Thufir doesn't really have anything to do in the story.

[Dire_Flumph]

Irulan and Shaddam Corrino aren't in the book until the climax, they weren't cut from the movie. In the same line, I doubt we'd see a true fish-tank Navigator until they get around to adapt Messiah, which they won't unless they make massive profits on these two. I kinda wish they had left in the whole "Thufir suspects Jessica of being the traitor" plot, because without it Thufir doesn't really have anything to do in the story.

It's more a comparison to the last two adaptions, which had those things all front and center, doing little but filling the story with extra stuff. Irulan has little to do in the book other than give worldbuilding snippits in the chapter headings and show up at the end, but that didn't prevent the Lynch movie from opening with her and the Sci-fi channel version trying to turn her into a co-protagonist. It's more a pleasant surprise at how focused this version is at telling the story it needs to without getting lost in the weeds, especially given how much of the marketing focused on Chani, who also really has nothing to do with the first half of the book and thankfully wasn't shoehorned in early.

I actually enjoyed this movie a lot more than I expected because of that. It's certainly the most confident adaption of the book to date by far, and I'm looking forward to seeing the second half. I also was happy to see this on HBO Max, but I'm now tempted to go see it in a good theater next time I have to travel near one.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess this is our Dune thread now.


Truly an experience, and I enjoyed it immensely even if it did feel a bit draggy towards the end. I've only ever read the first book, and I was still able to both follow the story and recognize almost everyone (except people named Harkonnen, that pale bald look made them all blur together). My father is an absolute Dune fanatic and also enjoyed it immensely.

Also, if anyone ever decides to greenlight an actual big-budget Warhammer 40K movie, I want whoever did the visual design for this movie involved. Stick a bunch of double-headed eagles on everything and this could have been straight out of the 40k setting (and yes, I know how much 40k originally ripped off from Dune in the first place).

[Catullus64]

Just got back from the theaters.

I can't really not love this movie, even though it did leave me in the cold in a few places. TLDR summary is that I was absolutely thrilled watching it, but it did leave me with some concerns about how this story is going to be handled in the sequels.

First off, the way in which this movie hands-down nails its task is in its visualization (and auralization) of the world, its technology and locales. The desert of Arrakis is absolutely stunning in its bleakness. Every single tech element, from shields & hunter-killers to thopters and thumpers, looks sleek but also worn and lived-with. The interiors at both Castle Caladan and the palace of Arakeen are beautifully staged. I think it could have stood a more richly varied color palette, but this style has its merits.

Unsurprisingly, the cast is stellar. Chalamet really has to carry quite a lot of this movie, and holds his own impressively alongside much more proven talent. I found this movie's version of Kynes particularly compelling. If there is anything like a weak link, I'd say its Bardem's Stilgar, but he doesn't feature much in the film anyhow, and has the next film (fingers crossed) to invest the character with a little more gravity. Likewise I wasn't sure I really "got" Josh Brolin's Gurney Halleck, but again I suspect he'll feature more prominently in the future.

The top 5 scenes that really grabbed hold of me while in the theater, in no particular order:

1. The spice harvester rescue had me on the edge of my seat, even though I knew the scene back to front from the book.

2. The scene between Jessica and the Shadout Mapes was possibly the best pure-acting-and-dialogue scene in the whole thing (close runner-up being the Gom Jabar).

3. Any scene with the Baron Harkonnen was suitably chilling, especially his first scene on Giedi Prime.

4. The action scenes were all pretty good, and I loved the choreography behind the shield-fights, but I found Paul's duel with Jamis had the best sense of real physicality and danger.

5. Jessica and Paul (but mostly Jessica) taking out the three Harkonnen soldiers in the 'Thopter was absolutely chilling. A Sister of the Bene Gesserit at peak ruthless lethality is something to behold.


I did have some problems with the structure and pacing of the movie, though I think such problems were all but inevitable. I feel like the movie should have been either thirty minutes longer or thirty minutes shorter. If shorter, it should have ended as Paul and Jessica head off into the desert to seek the Fremen. If longer, it should have ended with the funeral of Jamis (something I really thought they were building to with the emphasis in Paul's visions on the word "friend" ("I was a friend of Jamis"), and what I presume was an alternate future of him and Jamis being friends.

Of things that were cut, the only thing I really find myself missing is the banquet scene, which helps so much to provide insight into Imperial politics and to characterize the core cast, in addition to having some of the book's best dialogue. This film is already pretty long, I think they could have made room for this.

I'm a bit concerned for how many elements they still have left to set up for Part II, including important characters, like Irulan and Feyd-Ruatha. For a movie that's almost 80% setup, it still feels like we're missing a lot of the key pieces.

One a more-moment-to-moment level, I thought that some of the most high-intensity scenes, particularly the deaths of Duncan & Duke Leto, were diminished in their tension and power by frequent cutting between other scenes; I think that letting them play out more slowly and steadily would have been a better decision.

The script was really solid, but in some places the pacing and dialogue seemed a bit rushed in tempo. There were a number of moments where I thought "If I didn't already know this dialogue from the book, I wouldn't have heard or understood what was just said."

Finally, I would like to heap particular scorn upon whatever idiot Sardaukar gunner decided it was a good idea to fire a lasbeam at a shielded thopter during Duncan's escape. It's a good thing he didn't hit, or else the Harkonnens would have captured a smoking crater instead of a city.

[Noldo]

Visually it was absolutely gorgeous.

The pacing was pleasantly slow, managed to keep me interested throughout the runtime. A friend who had not read the book (and did not know anything about the movie in advance) was thrilled and enjoyed.

I think that they did not establish the futility of firearms sufficiently well and thus the confrontation between Harkonnen and Atreides troops where the battle lines just met each other in melee felt somewhat stupid considering the level of technology we were seeing all around us.

Overall the attack by Harkonnen was perhaps the weakest item in the movie. Atreides seemed being incompetent as they were so totally taken by surprise. Not enough groundwork to establish the unthinkable nature of the attack.

Loved the wink to the audience at the end that this is just the beginning.

[Joran]

Watched it, loved it, was absolutely ready for another 2.5 hour continuation of the story...

I'm flabbergasted that Part 2 hasn't been greenlit yet; I would have thought filming both films at the same time would have huge cost savings.

[Tyndmyr]

One problem with making a film adaption of an epic novel like Dune is including all the detailed world building for audience members who haven't read the book. I assume that most GitP members have read Dune at least once. Many, like myself, have read it numerous times. But how does the film explain personal shields to a viewer who hasn't read the books.

So...there is a lot of exposition, but also many things are just not explained. I'd read the books, and thus knew what was going on. My girlfriend had not, and also enjoyed the film, but there were quite a few things she didn't get.

I believe this is an intrinsic difficulty of the book, which is a remarkably difficult transition to film, because so much of it is internal, or reliant on a *lot* of knowledge to understand the significance of.


One thing I find interesting is they are focusing on Gurney Halleck's hatred of Harkonnens. I hope they are not forgetting Gurney Halleck the musician or the quotable Gurney Halleck who would say things like “Behold, as a wild ass in the desert, go I forth to my work.”

Eh, they kind of did.

Which I kinda get, because god, it's a long film already and there's a lot going on, so things have to be axed, and it turns out Harkonnens matter a lot, but yeah. The purist in me wants to quibble here and there.

But the film is enjoyable to watch regardless of quibbles, and the world building is really nifty.

[Clertar]

An aside on "exposition", especially in film adaptations of books.

With Dune reaching US audiences recently and more reviews coming to light, in the last few days I have been coming across this word more often than ever before.

And it got me thinking. It really feels that we simply consider that "exposition" is a negative thing per se in movies. Why is that? Surely Dune the novel has way more exposition than the movie. But I don't think that you see this notion brought up when discussing novels pretty much at all. The creator(s) retains more agency in novels, but in visual media the viewers are stakeholders of what's done, and how.

In the particular case of Dune, I think that it may come down to two things. One, we are in an era of nitpicking; criticism means finding problems in things, and complaining gets you social cred. Two, the exposure (?): surely the first LotR movie has as much exposition than Dune, if not more. But that was never an issue with it, I think. The LotR is so engrained in the collective mindset that maybe we accept it being more "exposition"-heavy than something that feels more like a novelty, even if it was written half a century ago.

[Wintermoot]

An aside on "exposition", especially in film adaptations of books.

With Dune reaching US audiences recently and more reviews coming to light, in the last few days I have been coming across this word more often than ever before.

And it got me thinking. It really feels that we simply consider that "exposition" is a negative thing per se in movies. Why is that? Surely Dune the novel has way more exposition than the movie. But I don't think that you see this notion brought up when discussing novels pretty much at all. The creator(s) retains more agency in novels, but in visual media the viewers are stakeholders of what's done, and how.

In the particular case of Dune, I think that it may come down to two things. One, we are in an era of nitpicking; criticism means finding problems in things, and complaining gets you social cred. Two, the exposure (?): surely the first LotR movie has as much exposition than Dune, if not more. But that was never an issue with it, I think. The LotR is so engrained in the collective mindset that maybe we accept it being more "exposition"-heavy than something that feels more like a novelty, even if it was written half a century ago.

I think it's easier for the exposition to feel clumsy and heavy-handed in a Movie, where it has to spew forth from someone's mouth in what is often very unnatural language, whereas in a novel it can simply be presented to the reader without having to ham-handedly jam it through someone's mouth.

certainly my issues with exposition comes from it being done badly, not just being done.

In this Dune movie, I liked, for example, when Paul was watching little videos educating himself on Arrakis culture. That's something his character would DO when sent there. And felt more natural and in-universe than some kind of "here's the thoughts in my head" voiceover like in the 80s movie.

But then I -hated- when Dr Keynes mumbles as an aside about Paul "he will know your ways as if born to them" because it was ridiculous that the character would mumble that out-loud out of the corner of her mouth while that close to the outworlders.

So I would say the first one was done well and the second done poorly, as examples.

[Aedilred]

I agree with the comments of Wintermoot above about the difference between novels and movies as regards exposition. There's another important difference, I think, which is the ability to skim in a novel. If the author decides to wax lyrical about the specific properties of this particular sci-fi whatever, you can just cast your eyes over it and pick up the important stuff before getting on with the story (or skip it altogether and return to it as necessary). You can also quickly refer back to it if necessary, if you've missed something. But in a movie you're forced to sit through it for however long the director decided was a good idea. This is, incidentally, one of the reasons I don't get on particularly well with audiobooks or indeed podcasts.

I think there's no problem with exposition per se. It's necessary, after all. But it becomes a problem when you get expo-dumps, characters who only exist to deliver exposition, exposition is told-not-shown, and so on. Really I think you want to minimise the amount of time that the audience is aware that they're being exposited to: you ideally want them to pick up the information organically through just watching the movie.

In this movie I felt that the first section was a bit heavy on the exposition, to the point that the film clunked a bit, although once that was out of the way everything was fine. And it was clear that they were making an effort to try to convey the information in an interesting way rather than just having people monologue at the camera or have long "as we all know" conversations. The movies Paul was watching were a nice way of doing (part of) it, although I did feel that they were a bit basic for someone in his position, especially considering he arrived on Arrakis supposedly fully-versed in this stuff including speaking the language. It was necessary to get that information across somehow, and it's always going to be a problem in a movie of this type, so I'm not going to hold it against them.

I haven't read the book (I know) but I have seen the miniseries and I'm familiar enough with the setting that I probably didn't need the exposition per se. Maybe if I were a complete noob I would appreciate that more.

Really my major criticism of it was the pacing generally. Much of the movie is essentially prologue to the main story, but this can't (and indeed shouldn't) be shortened much more than it is. This also means that much of the setting-exposition is further compressed into the very beginning of the movie because you need that to understand the prologue. And then at the point the prologue ends - that feels like the climax of the movie, which means that the second half drags terribly at times: you're waiting for a signal that another break point is coming to end the movie, but it feels like it's meandering about. There are a few points where it feels like that was enough and we can end the movie now, only for it to continue, and when that's been done a few times and when you haven't seen the film before, it's difficult to avoid the temptation to look at your watch just to see how much longer the thing has to run.

That might fall away on a rewatch.

The film was for the most part visually impressive but unexciting. It conveys scale brilliantly. But there's an awful of brown, grey, beige. Someone else commented on the sterility of the interior scenes; I thought so too. Surely there's a happy medium between the blandness of these costumes and the bonkers flamboyance of the Theodor Pistek outfits in the 2000 miniseries?

Regarding mumbling: I did at times struggle to hear the actors but I put that down less to their delivery and more to the intrusiveness of the score. The balance seemed off at times. Overall - maybe it's just me - but I'm not really sure I get the love for Hans Zimmer. I've seen a few articles about the efforts he went to to produce the score for this film and make it sound sci-fi-y and so on but at the time I just felt it was (a) generic and (b) often too loud... and I think that about a lot of Zimmer scores. From my armchair, it seems to me like he focuses on effect over melody, perhaps because at heart he's a producer not a composer? Has he ever actually written, you know, a tune? Looking at his portfolio, all the best scores on there were written primarily by someone else and then mixed by him.

[Eldan]

I agree with the comments of Wintermoot above about the difference between novels and movies as regards exposition. There's another important difference, I think, which is the ability to skim in a novel. If the author decides to wax lyrical about the specific properties of this particular sci-fi whatever, you can just cast your eyes over it and pick up the important stuff before getting on with the story (or skip it altogether and return to it as necessary). You can also quickly refer back to it if necessary, if you've missed something.

And to go even further, as in some books - including Dune - you can have appendices and a glossary.

As for bonkers flamboyant... they are space aristocrats who rule a rich planet. I think they could use a bit of ostentation.

[Dragonus45]

Watched it, loved it, was absolutely ready for another 2.5 hour continuation of the story...

I'm flabbergasted that Part 2 hasn't been greenlit yet; I would have thought filming both films at the same time would have huge cost savings.

Villeneuve has said he wanted to do that but there were "logistical issues" with the studio prevented that.

[Clertar]

(oops, wrong thread)

[Aedilred]

As for bonkers flamboyant... they are space aristocrats who rule a rich planet. I think they could use a bit of ostentation.

Well my Feyd-Rautha will always wear a large triangle for no apparent reason...
… and I still hold out hope that he will when he finally appears in Part 2

Some of the costumes in the miniseries were OTT - to the point where when I watched it with my friends the attention we paid to those overshadowed the plot and the dialogue, etc. But I do feel that the movie could have used a bit more of that, all the same. Even the "ceremonial" outfits, surely the one place you can really let your costume designer off the leash, were pretty dull to look at. The Herald of the Change had the best outfit: hopefully when we see more of non-Arrakis, non-military personnel he won't be such an outlier.

[Dragonus45]

News just hit that the sequel is officially greenlit! I'm stoked. Hopefully they don't bungle the release of this one and we can get a third movie for Dune Messiah, which honestly feels like the easiest book to pack down into a single release.

[Aedilred]

The sequel is likely to be profitable: it'll probably do sufficient numbers on the strengths of this movie over the opening weekend that even if it stinks, word of mouth won't damage it quickly enough to stop it basically breaking even. So I suspect the WB bean-counters will now switch sides and support the idea of filming any projected sequels at once if there's a cost saving involved. But then there might not be so much of a saving if they can't re-use the same sets.

And that's assuming that Villeneuve has any interest in filming Messiah of course.

[Thrudd]

The sequel is likely to be profitable: it'll probably do sufficient numbers on the strengths of this movie over the opening weekend that even if it stinks, word of mouth won't damage it quickly enough to stop it basically breaking even. So I suspect the WB bean-counters will now switch sides and support the idea of filming any projected sequels at once if there's a cost saving involved. But then there might not be so much of a saving if they can't re-use the same sets.

And that's assuming that Villeneuve has any interest in filming Messiah of course.
Can't say for sure, but I feel like some of the visual and acting choices made in this film point to an intention to get to Messiah and Children, at the least. Some subtle foreshadowing and setting up of character relationships that wouldn't really pay off until then.

[Clertar]

Can't say for sure, but I feel like some of the visual and acting choices made in this film point to an intention to get to Messiah and Children, at the least. Some subtle foreshadowing and setting up of character relationships that wouldn't really pay off until then.

Yes, and consistently with the prequel series we'll get on HBO Max, it seems that the intention is to set up a sort of Dune franchise. It makes sense that they would want to cover the novels, if we compare Dune to Star Wars it would be a big advantage to have a story already set and just adapting it for the movies instead of having to create it as they go. The extended Dune lore is also perfect for devoting series to it in parallel to the movies, in a small-scale MCU approach.

[Catullus64]

An aside on "exposition", especially in film adaptations of books.

With Dune reaching US audiences recently and more reviews coming to light, in the last few days I have been coming across this word more often than ever before.

And it got me thinking. It really feels that we simply consider that "exposition" is a negative thing per se in movies. Why is that? Surely Dune the novel has way more exposition than the movie. But I don't think that you see this notion brought up when discussing novels pretty much at all. The creator(s) retains more agency in novels, but in visual media the viewers are stakeholders of what's done, and how.

In the particular case of Dune, I think that it may come down to two things. One, we are in an era of nitpicking; criticism means finding problems in things, and complaining gets you social cred. Two, the exposure (?): surely the first LotR movie has as much exposition than Dune, if not more. But that was never an issue with it, I think. The LotR is so engrained in the collective mindset that maybe we accept it being more "exposition"-heavy than something that feels more like a novelty, even if it was written half a century ago.

I strongly agree that the word "exposition" is over-stigmatized. But it still needs to be handled with finesse, and both of the previous on-screen adaptations of Dune struggled with it heavily, the 1984 film in particular. I would say that inability to translate the inner monologues and long expository dialogues of Herbert's novel into something that moves gracefully on screen is the greatest failing of the (otherwise very creative and faithful) Lynch adaptation, and one of the greatest strengths of the Villeneuve adaptation. I can understand why, with this property in particular, people would be leery of the weight of the exposition.

(Lest it seems like I'm giving Villeneuve and his team too much credit over Lynch and his, Villeneuve has a distinct advantage in terms of the filmaking climate that he is working in. Peter Jackson and company basically wrote the manifesto on how to adapt sprawling genre works like this, for those who know how to read it.)

Film, for better or for worse, biases towards the naturalistic, and expository dialogue is always going to veer into more noticeably artificial territory. Books can lean a lot more on the imagination of the reader to make things seem natural; a novel can still have clunky exposition, but the margin for error is much more generous on the page than on the screen. And for any story, book or film, the amount of exposition needs to be weighed in proportion to the gravity and intensity of the story being told. For all that they're derided as colossal loredumps, Dune and The Lord of the Rings are pretty thrilling page-turners with action-packed plots and consistently reinforced high stakes.

[Mordar]

First 70 minutes in...don't like splitting the viewing, but not much choice.

Visuals very pleasing. Gurney current favorite. Disappointed that it appears we have Jason Mamoa as Jason Mamoa playing Duncan Idaho, but it is early yet. Maybe that changes. Similarly, Bautista as Bautista, but he's only had like 60 seconds of time. Also may be confirmation bias since those were the two that I thought would be problematic.

- M

[ecarden]

I enjoyed it, but the longer these movies get, the more they start to need an intermission.

[Trafalgar]

Went to see it yesterday. After a minute and a half, the theatre lost power right in the middle of Paul sitting down to breakfast. (I don't think I need to put that in spoilers). They refunded me the ticket cost.

Went again tonight and some one three rows up brought their whole family including a toddler and a 7 year old. Between the toddler crying at every Hans Zimmer Bwoooom and the 7 year old playing a game on smart phone during the whole movie, I didn't have a great movie going experience. Hopefully that doesn't color my reaction.

Over all I liked it. It's true to the novel. I can see some people finding it slow but I think pacing was fine. Villeneuve is trying to go high brow with it and not turn it into an action flick. Cinematography is excellent, Casting is good. I liked Momoa as Duncan. I was pleasantly surprised that I like Chalamet as Paul.

What I didn't like: The music was off a bit. You know that high pitched singing/wailing that Hollywood likes to do whenever they want you to think a place is exotic? There is a lot of it and it got repetitive by the end of the movie. There are some characters from the book who are in the movie for like 10 seconds just so fans of the book can say ahhh, look who that is. But their parts could likely have been cut all together. Good examples are Shadout Mapes, Piter De Vries, and Dr. Yueh. I know Dr. Yueh is important to the plot but they don't establish his character at all. They could have almost gotten rid of him all together.

[Cikomyr2]

I have to say, there were instances of the music covering up Paul's dialogue when he was in the middle of a vision/frenzy. that's probably the one most annoying/displeasing thing about the movie to me

[Eldan]

Yeah, I think the sound quality was also pretty bad at my cinema, I couldn't understand a lot of the dialogue. Was quite tempted to go find a screening with subtitles, but apparently, the local cinemas declared they aren't doing English shows anymore because they aren't profitable in small towns.

[DavidSh]

... Was quite tempted to go find a screening with subtitles, but apparently, the local cinemas declared they aren't doing English shows anymore because they aren't profitable in small towns.
Do they run shows dubbed in French or German? Italian? Romansh? Is Dune showing in such a dub?

[Eldan]

German, yes, but I pretty strongly dislike dubs. If I can understand the original language (English, French) I always avoid them, and often even for other languages.

[Cikomyr2]

German, yes, but I pretty strongly dislike dubs. If I can understand the original language (English, French) I always avoid them, and often even for other languages.

I grown without knowing any english, so Dubbed was my life for a long time. But nowaday if I can avoid it I do :smallwink:

[Mordar]

Over all I liked it. It's true to the novel. I can see some people finding it slow but I think pacing was fine. Villeneuve is trying to go high brow with it and not turn it into an action flick. Cinematography is excellent, Casting is good. I liked Momoa as Duncan. I was pleasantly surprised that I like Chalamet as Paul.

I liked Chalamet as well...from an interview I read I wasn't sure I would, but we was good. Could use a sandwich or two though. Momoa is another matter, as I mentioned before.


There are some characters from the book who are in the movie for like 10 seconds just so fans of the book can say ahhh, look who that is. But their parts could likely have been cut all together. Good examples are Shadout Mapes, Piter De Vries, and Dr. Yueh. I know Dr. Yueh is important to the plot but they don't establish his character at all. They could have almost gotten rid of him all together.

Agreed. Especially...
...since they weren't bothering with the conditioning. We're not shown anything impressive about the defenses Atriedes has in place to protect themselves, and the House Wars aren't the focus...so the sneak attack and Sardaukar had it covered. I guess we needed another example of Harkkonen = bad, and an excuse for the shields being down. Now we need an excuse for how the doctor could drop the shields, though...


What I didn't like: The music was off a bit. You know that high pitched singing/wailing that Hollywood likes to do whenever they want you to think a place is exotic? There is a lot of it and it got repetitive by the end of the movie.


I have to say, there were instances of the music covering up Paul's dialogue when he was in the middle of a vision/frenzy. that's probably the one most annoying/displeasing thing about the movie to me


Yeah, I think the sound quality was also pretty bad at my cinema, I couldn't understand a lot of the dialogue. Was quite tempted to go find a screening with subtitles, but apparently, the local cinemas declared they aren't doing English shows anymore because they aren't profitable in small towns.

Contrary to my general preference (theater over home theater) and our level of comfort with movies in the COVID era (good spacing, vaccinated, etc), I watched this on HBO Max. As such, I had the advantage of captioning. I am very happy about that, because even without outside people noises/distractions, a lot of the dialogue was tough to hear.

Pretty movie. Pretty hard to hear.

- M

[NRSASD]

I can’t seem to add spoilers tags so I’m trying to keep this post spoiler free. That said, consider yourself warned!

Just saw the film as someone entirely new to Dune.

The Good:
The worms are great. The Shaduakar are excellent, especially their homeworld. House Atriedes appears very Totalitarian Scotland, which is great. I adore the fact that they made landfall on Arriakas and were piped in by space bagpipers. All the actors are superb and I enjoyed them greatly. The movie is visually excellent across the board. Their dragonfly gunships are adorable and I love them.

The Meh (nothing was bad):
Everyone is human in this setting right, so why do the Harkunnons look like cloning rejects or really pasty orcs? Traitor guy seemed really smart for setting up all these ways to sabotage people but really dumb for not anticipating his reward? Music was distracting. Protagonist is named Paul (I suppose Bob would be worse but still, everyone else gets good names. Besides mom or Duncan Idaho). Nobody seemed to actually be suffering in the presumably lethal heat during the scenes where people are outside and unprotected. Last line of the film was “this is only the beginning” which was a little on the nose.

Overall an excellent film and I eagerly await part 2!

[Mechalich]

Contrary to my general preference (theater over home theater) and our level of comfort with movies in the COVID era (good spacing, vaccinated, etc), I watched this on HBO Max. As such, I had the advantage of captioning. I am very happy about that, because even without outside people noises/distractions, a lot of the dialogue was tough to hear.

Pretty movie. Pretty hard to hear.


Have to echo this, it seems to be the biggest issue with the film, bad sound mixing. The score is simple too loud compared to dialogue and ambient effects during many portions of the film. I actually liked the score itself and thought it very appropriate to the overall themes, but it was just brutal at points.

[Fyraltari]

I can’t seem to add spoilers tags so I’m trying to keep this post spoiler free. That said, consider yourself warned!
That's odd, have you tried putting them manually, like so ?


Just saw the film as someone entirely new to Dune. welcome to the fandom!



Everyone is human in this setting right,
Right, although, they're not afraid to bend the definition of "human" pretty far. But that's mostly sequel stuff. There's one mention that the Great Houses keep stockpiling nuclear weapons in case they ever run into an alien intelligence.

so why do the Harkunnons look like cloning rejects or really pasty orcs? Ever since the Lynch film made the Harkonnens inexplicably redheaded, it seems to be tradition to have them have something weird going on, which is dumb. That and making the Baron fly, but that's objevtimvely cooler than in the book, so I give it a pass. The idea here is apparently tht their homeworld of Giedi Prime is sonpollited they kever get any sunlight.

that their Traitor guy seemed really smart for setting up all these ways to sabotage people but really dumb for not anticipating his reward?
Yeah, that whole plot got done dirty. The whole "the Atreides retainers suspect Jessica of being a plant" bit got excised which raises questions for the sequel, and poor Dr. Yueh's background and motivations were completely missing. It goes like this: he's a doctor of the Suk school which means hebwas condotionned to be utterly unable to harm his patients (anybody?) even indirectly. However, he was married to a Bene Gesserit adept called Wanna who was abducted by the Harkonnens. The tortures she's undergoing broke through his conditionning (the Baron tgunks it's because of his love for her, he thinks it's because of his sheer hatred towards the Baron, the fans suspect the BG mind whammy had something to do with it). The Baron offered to reunite them if he betrayed the Atreides. He immediately clocked that it meant there was a 95% chance the Baron meant killing them both, but he went along with it because A) He would never be sure of her fate until he looked the Baron in the eye, B) Her being killed is preferable to being tortured by the Harkonnens, C) He wasn't going to get another shot at killing the Baron. Hislast words in the novel are "You think I didn't know what I bought for my Wanna?" said as he's bleeding to death.

Music was distracting. Protagonist is named Paul (I suppose Bob would be worse but still, everyone else gets good names. Besides mom or Duncan Idaho).
What's wrong with being called Paul, Jessica or Duncan?

Nobody seemed to actually be suffering in the presumably lethal heat during the scenes where people are outside and unprotected.
The heat isn't lethal in the city, it's way up north. The Water Discipline is only really observed by the people who live in the desert.

[Trafalgar]

...since they weren't bothering with the conditioning. We're not shown anything impressive about the defenses Atriedes has in place to protect themselves, and the House Wars aren't the focus...so the sneak attack and Sardaukar had it covered. I guess we needed another example of Harkkonen = bad, and an excuse for the shields being down. Now we need an excuse for how the doctor could drop the shields, though...


They eliminated the explanation of his conditioning. They also eliminated people suspecting Jessica of betraying him. That's important for when Gurney shows up again in part 2. I think the main thing for keeping him around is the poison tooth episode, but it depends if they have Hawat working as Mentat for the Harkonnen. But they never explained Mentats.....

Did else anyone notice that the spice silos were on concrete pads like the Dune RTS from the 90s?

[GloatingSwine]

Ever since the Lynch film made the Harkonnens inexplicably redheaded, it seems to be tradition to have them have something weird going on, which is dumb. That and making the Baron fly, but that's objevtimvely cooler than in the book, so I give it a pass. The idea here is apparently tht their homeworld of Giedi Prime is sonpollited they kever get any sunlight.

Not that inexplicable. The Baron is supposed to be a redhead, it’s a very buried clue that

he’s Jessica’s father, and Paul’s grandfather, because Jessica is also supposed to have reddish hair.


Yeah, that whole plot got done dirty. The whole "the Atreides retainers suspect Jessica of being a plant" bit got excised which raises questions for the sequel, and poor Dr. Yueh's background and motivations were completely missing. It goes like this: he's a doctor of the Suk school which means hebwas condotionned to be utterly unable to harm his patients (anybody?) even indirectly. However, he was married to a Bene Gesserit adept called Wanna who was abducted by the Harkonnens. The tortures she's undergoing broke through his conditionning (the Baron tgunks it's because of his love for her, he thinks it's because of his sheer hatred towards the Baron, the fans suspect the BG mind whammy had something to do with it). The Baron offered to reunite them if he betrayed the Atreides. He immediately clocked that it meant there was a 95% chance the Baron meant killing them both, but he went along with it because A) He would never be sure of her fate until he looked the Baron in the eye, B) Her being killed is preferable to being tortured by the Harkonnens, C) He wasn't going to get another shot at killing the Baron. Hislast words in the novel are "You think I didn't know what I bought for my Wanna?" said as he's bleeding to death.

I dunno, I rather liked that they dropped the conditioning bit. Like the Sun school is supposed to be this perfectly trustworthy thing but actually it’s broken by a single loved one held hostage. That doesn’t make the Baron look uniquely conniving and capable, it just makes Suk conditioning look pathetic.

The movie established well how much Yueh was trusted because it made a big deal of who was and was not allowed to attempt physical contact with Paul and Leto and he was and regularly did.

[J-H]

I guess this is the Dune discussion thread. After seeing a bunch of recommendations to watch it in a theater, I did. I had to drive an hour each way as the closest theater (30 minute) isn't showing it any more... rural life. Anyway, I'm really glad I saw it in the theater. If my wife wants to watch it, I'll watch it again, which is something I rarely do. I'm curious as to how much she'll be disoriented vs. someone who's familiar with the book.

It's been a decade or more, but I have read the original book a number of times (and own it). I am extremely happy with this adaptation. They changed some things, absolutely, but they did it in a way that was generally faithful to the spirit and intent of the book. This is the best rendition of 'thopters I've ever seen, and although the spaceships with their giant "we're on display like we're landing on the Death Star" ramps are kind of impractical, they do a great job of showing the high-tech alienness of the environment because they are not like anything we'd build on earth. We saw very little of the guild, but the super-giant "looks like the planet eater from Star Trek" heighliner again shows how powerful they are and how they control interstellar travel.

The trailers made it look like Jessica had a bit part, but she didn't. She was at least redhead-ish, which is close enough. She did a really good job mixing "mom concern" in with the other things she had going on; as a parent I definitely had empathy for her, as well as for Leto I.

Liet was a slightly more influential character than I recall in the book, but she worked. I really appreciated how when she got stabbed we saw a jet of water from her stillsuit instead of just "oh blood". Paul's visions were overall handled well (the one while flying the 'thopter was a bit weird) and giving Jamis some vision time made him a bit more humanized as not "the crazy guy" but "the guy who lives the Fremen way without compromise or adaptation." Gender and ethnicity swapping for movies is something I usually disdain, because it's usually done badly or disrespectfully vs the source material. I have zero complaints about it in this adaptation, because they did it well. I don't recall a lot of descriptions of the Fremen as far as skin color/hair although I think Chani may have been another redhead in the book (that detail has slipped from certainty to maybe in my head); anyway they make a lot more sense here than as the "white guys with long hair" in the David Lynch version. Paul needs to get a tan or he's gonna burn.

I knew what was going on with Yueh, and I like how they changed "Suk Doctor" into "Also like a Vulcan" with simply laying fingertips on Paul and others to check vitals and health. It was one of those subtle "these are high tech humans but also alien to how we do things" points.

A+ Exceeds Expectations. Worth the trip, worth seeing in theater.

Possibly my first time in a movie theater in 3-4 years?

[Clertar]

I find it interesting that when discussing the Dune adaptacion, Javier Bardem generally seems to not be considered white.

[Mechalich]

I find it interesting that when discussing the Dune adaptacion, Javier Bardem generally seems to not be considered white.

Bardem is Spanish, and was born in the Canary Islands. If one felt obligated to force him into US census style classification scheme he would probably report as White, Hispanic. In popular discourse this grouping, which encompasses a large portion of the persons considered to be Latino/Latina/Latinx, is generally considered 'non-white.' Frankly this is one of the reasons why attempting to discuss arbitrary higher-level classifications of human populations above those of identifiable hereditary or linguistic ethnic groups is a foolish enterprise.

[J-H]

There's been so much interchange between North Africa and Spain & Italy over the last couple of thousand years that "white" is more of a cultural than descriptive term. It's hard to tell a stereotypical Italian (tan skin, dark hair) apart from a Carthaginian Libyan, Lebanese, Egyptian, Armenian, etc. who also has tan skin and dark hair. You could argue that Leto looks more Persian than he does Greek-ish (I think the Atreides are supposed to be Greek-ish?) and have a good case for that too because of how blurred-together everything is.

If I remember correctly, when they were casting for 300, the directors put out a call for a bunch of Persians/Iranians to show up as extras. They were unhappy at the amount of "white" people who didn't look right for the part showing up because that was where their ancestors were from. They wanted darker skin, blacker hair, etc.

[Fyraltari]

There's been so much interchange between North Africa and Spain & Italy over the last couple of thousand years that "white" is more of a cultural than descriptive term.
It's never been anything else.

It's hard to tell a stereotypical Italian (tan skin, dark hair) apart from a Carthaginian Libyan, Lebanese, Egyptian, Armenian, etc. who also has tan skin and dark hair. You could argue that Leto looks more Persian than he does Greek-ish
Why would you want to?

(I think the Atreides are supposed to be Greek-ish?)
As the name suggests, they are indeed the descendants of Atreus, from Greek legend, through Agammemnon. But the year is 10, 091 after the Spacing Guild so if they have a phenotype, it'd be "Caladanian". Duke Leto is said to have dark hair and olive-dark skin. That's about it.


If I remember correctly, when they were casting for 300, the directors put out a call for a bunch of Persians/Iranians to show up as extras. They were unhappy at the amount of "white" people who didn't look right for the part showing up because that was where their ancestors were from. They wanted darker skin, blacker hair, etc.
Wow, are you telling me that 300 might be slightly historically inaccurate? I would have never guessed.

[J-H]

Wow, are you telling me that 300 might be slightly historically inaccurate? I would have never guessed.

That made me laugh out loud, thanks.

Chani's added speech about it being an honor for Paul dying with her great-aunt's crysknife in his hands was a good touch, showing that she too is part of the blood-soaked Fremen culture ("Kill to lead" is dumb, but it's in the book; thankfully, "Ways change."). I think it helps set up one of the things mentioned in passing in the book, where she starts killing challengers to Muad'Dib in duels herself, in hopes that there will be fewer if they learn that they will get killed by her without even seeing him.

[Aedilred]

You could argue that Leto looks more Persian than he does Greek-ish
To the extent that that argument is even worth making, given the ethnicity of Oscar Isaac (Cuban/Guatemalan) it's kind of amusing. Though it does go some way to illustrating how pointless such arguments are.

[Cikomyr2]

To the extent that that argument is even worth making, given the ethnicity of Oscar Isaac (Cuban/Guatemalan) it's kind of amusing. Though it does go some way to illustrating how pointless such arguments are.

Because race is a racial construct that has little bearing on reality. Light skinned mixed raced babies can be determined black or white depending the neighbourhood they go to, and dark skinned Italians and Spanish will be "whites"

It has nothing to do with actually respecting reality, and its just about creating fake categories to encourage tribalism

[Mechalich]

Because race is a racial construct that has little bearing on reality. Light skinned mixed raced babies can be determined black or white depending the neighbourhood they go to, and dark skinned Italians and Spanish will be "whites"

It has nothing to do with actually respecting reality, and its just about creating fake categories to encourage tribalism

Race as a cultural trait has limited and fraught relationship with actual phylogenetic patterns among human populations, though the latter are quite real and are important to modeling things like disease prevalence.

This rather relevant because in the context of Dune phylogenetics is extremely important and also an aspect of humanity that has been manipulated for thousands of years to produce and refine superhuman abilities (the Voice, other Bene Gesserit powers), and ultimately create a living god. This is, however, extremely difficult to convey on screen because external appearance is not a good guide to heredity, since most visible phenotypic traits are both extensively multi-gene and tied heavily to environmental factors, height is a nice example, depending both on many genes and on nutrition and hormone levels throughout childhood.

It actually makes sense, again in the context of Dune, for Fremen characters to be portrayed by actors who are mixed race or ethnically indeterminate, because the Fremen population would be so. The Fremen population possesses a constant, low-level, genetic exchange with the rest of the Empire, and since the Empire's population is much, much larger than that of the Fremen (the Fremen population is something like 10 million, minuscule at planetary scale and only doubly the urban population of Arrakis) this prevents the necessary genetic isolation that would generate a specific Fremen ethnicity.

[Cikomyr2]

The more I think about it, the more I prefer Villeneuve's focus on the oppressed's struggle against the oppressor as the thematic thread of the movie.

I just wished Paul's character arc was a more progressive transformation from a Landsraad Noble with Landsraad nobleman's concerns and tactics, to a Fremen Liberator.

The way it plays out, he goes from A to B in the span of about 20 minutes in the movie, while that transition should have been the focus of his character.

He should have seen the Fremen as nothing but a people to use at first. See them as the pawns of the Bene Gesserit. Only see them within the consideration of the next Duke Atreides, and his views should have evolved with exposure.

[Mordar]

The more I think about it, the more I prefer Villeneuve's focus on the oppressed's struggle against the oppressor as the thematic thread of the movie.

I just wished Paul's character arc was a more progressive transformation from a Landsraad Noble with Landsraad nobleman's concerns and tactics, to a Fremen Liberator.

The way it plays out, he goes from A to B in the span of about 20 minutes in the movie, while that transition should have been the focus of his character.

He should have seen the Fremen as nothing but a people to use at first. See them as the pawns of the Bene Gesserit. Only see them within the consideration of the next Duke Atreides, and his views should have evolved with exposure.

I don't recall this as being a perspective Paul (or Leto, for that matter) would have ever had...if not from the beginning, from fairly early on in the book they were depicted as the "not-Harkkonens", particularly in regards to not viewing people as easily replaceable tools/assets. I think the rapid "Dances With Wolves" treatment would undercut the value of the Atreides story/presentation.

Am I mistaken? It has been more than 15 years since I read Dune.

- M

[The Glyphstone]

I was going to say the same - that feels like a very un-Atreides attitude based on the Duke, who would be the one most likely to pass that sort of ruler-based lesson onto Paul. Leto's very first interaction with a Fremen is showing him respect, and guaranteeing their right to live freely in their own homes. That's not really a 'natives are tools/pawns' perspective.

[hamishspence]

I was going to say the same - that feels like a very un-Atreides attitude based on the Duke, who would be the one most likely to pass that sort of ruler-based lesson onto Paul.

The Duke does give a cynical "We do what we do because it keeps us in power" lecture once, in the book :

Paul stared at his father’s back, seeing the fatigue in the angle of the neck, in the line of the shoulders, in the slow movements.

“You’re just tired, Father.”

“I am tired,” the Duke agreed. “I’m morally tired. The melancholy degeneration of the Great Houses has afflicted me at last, perhaps. And we were such strong people once.”

Paul spoke in quick anger: “Our House hasn’t degenerated!”

“Hasn’t it?”

The Duke turned, faced his son, revealing dark circles beneath hard eyes, a cynical twist of mouth. “I should wed your mother, make her my Duchess. Yet… my unwedded state give some Houses hope they may yet ally with me through their marriageable daughters.” He shrugged. “So, I….”

“Mother has explained this to me.”

“Nothing wins more loyalty for a leader than an air of bravura,” the Duke said. “I, therefore, cultivate an air of bravura.”

“You lead well,” Paul protested. “You govern well. Men follow you willingly and love you.”

“My propaganda corps is one of the finest,” the Duke said.

...


“Did you know we’re using spice residue as raw material and already have our own factory to manufacture filmbase?”

“Sir?”

“We mustn’t run short of filmbase,” the Duke said. “Else, how could we flood village and city with our information? The people must learn how well I govern them. How would they know if we didn’t tell them?”

as well as suggesting that the Fremen belief in the Mahdi is something to exploit, in an emergency.

The Duke took an antifatigue tablet from a pocket, gulped it dry. “Power and fear,” he said. “The tools of statecraft. I must order new emphasis on guerrilla training for you. That filmclip there—they call you ‘Mahdi’—‘Lisan al-Gaib’—as a last resort, you might capitalize on that.”

[Cikomyr2]

Also, Duke Leto's attitude toward the fremen is not a pure benevolent one.

He outright say he want to tap them as a fighting force for his political gains.

The Atreides play the good guys. They behave as such because it serves them politically. But I don't think they should be seen as a genuinely force of good. At the end of the day, they still do the Emperor and the Guild's bidding

[Fyraltari]

Duke Leto firmly intended to train the Fremen into an army to fight the Harkonnen, and, possibly use them to put the Atreides on the Lion Throne at some point down the line.

Righting the wrongs the Fremen have known was always a distant second priority at best (he most certainly never intended to help them take back control of the planet).

At this point in the book and the movie, this is also roughly where Paul's mind is at. He wants to use the Fremen to survive the fall of House Atreides, avenge Father Dear and possibly become Emperor. He's also extremely worried about escaping his vision of a galaxy-wide jihad.

It takes him a while to actually "go Native" and count himself as a Fremen.

[Cikomyr2]

I watched and I'm not thrilled to be honest :)

Well, too bad for you. If you ever feel like discussing your opinion we'll be here

[Tarmor]

I haven't got 'round to watching yet. I'm a big fan of the books and enjoyed all the previous film/TV releases, even where they stray from the books. Everything I've read in this forum suggests that I'm going to enjoy it.
I may not agree with some of the changes or portrayals, but that's going to happen with any movie based on a book I know well. A mate has watched it, and he said the biggest disappointment was that he has to wait for part 2!

[Mechalich]

Duke Leto firmly intended to train the Fremen into an army to fight the Harkonnen, and, possibly use them to put the Atreides on the Lion Throne at some point down the line.

Righting the wrongs the Fremen have known was always a distant second priority at best (he most certainly never intended to help them take back control of the planet).

At this point in the book and the movie, this is also roughly where Paul's mind is at. He wants to use the Fremen to survive the fall of House Atreides, avenge Father Dear and possibly become Emperor. He's also extremely worried about escaping his vision of a galaxy-wide jihad.

It takes him a while to actually "go Native" and count himself as a Fremen.

One thing about Dune is that spice production must continue no matter what. The consequence of failing to produce spice is civilization wide collapse across the whole Imperium. The Fremen don't have the ability to produce spice on an industrial level sufficient to sustain civilization, something that everyone, including the Fremen themselves, knows. The film actually quite carefully recognizes this and has Stilgar quickly acquiescence to this reality by telling Leto 'you can mine your spice,' because the alternative is to bring the power of the whole Imperium against them.

Paul's insight, critically, is that properly mobilized and trained, the Fremen can take on the forces of the whole Imperium and win, and therefore he leads them to crush spice production and therefore lures the Emperor to send his forces to Arrakis where the Fremen have a massive advantage. This, ultimately, is Dune's great bit of world-building sleight of hand, in that the universe is setup in a such a way that ten million or so Fremen can mobilize a fighting force sufficient to overcome the resources of an Emperor who controls hundreds or thousands of planets, something that should be impossible even if one Fremen was worth ten other fighters.

[Fyraltari]

One thing about Dune is that spice production must continue no matter what. The consequence of failing to produce spice is civilization wide collapse across the whole Imperium. The Fremen don't have the ability to produce spice on an industrial level sufficient to sustain civilization, something that everyone, including the Fremen themselves, knows. The film actually quite carefully recognizes this and has Stilgar quickly acquiescence to this reality by telling Leto 'you can mine your spice,' because the alternative is to bring the power of the whole Imperium against them.

Paul's insight, critically, is that properly mobilized and trained, the Fremen can take on the forces of the whole Imperium and win, and therefore he leads them to crush spice production and therefore lures the Emperor to send his forces to Arrakis where the Fremen have a massive advantage. This, ultimately, is Dune's great bit of world-building sleight of hand, in that the universe is setup in a such a way that ten million or so Fremen can mobilize a fighting force sufficient to overcome the resources of an Emperor who controls hundreds or thousands of planets, something that should be impossible even if one Fremen was worth ten other fighters.

Meh
The Fremen did beat the Emperor's troops on Arrakis, but it was Paul's threat to nuke the Spice out of existence that actually got Shaddam to stand down. The Emperor had only sent a couple legions to the planet and despite every Great House having sent troops there, the Guild kept them stuck in orbit, so I wouldn't say the Fremen overcame the resources of the entire Imperium.

As for the spice production, while "the spice must flow" sounds very nice, God-Emperor tells us the production was completely halted for hundreds of years, up to possibly three millenia and the Imperium managed to carry on (albeit at greatly reduced speed) on reserves alone.

[Cikomyr2]

Meh
The Fremen did beat the Emperor's troops on Arrakis, but it was Paul's threat to nuke the Spice out of existence that actually got Shaddam to stand down. The Emperor had only sent a couple legions to the planet and despite every Great House having sent troops there, the Guild kept them stuck in orbit, so I wouldn't say the Fremen overcame the resources of the entire Imperium.

As for the spice production, while "the spice must flow" sounds very nice, God-Emperor tells us the production was completely halted for hundreds of years, up to possibly three millenia and the Imperium managed to carry on (albeit at greatly reduced speed) on reserves alone.

precisely. The Fremen can't take the entire Imperium at once. But they dont have to: by threatening the destruction of the Spice, they secure the permanent cooperation of the Guild and negate any potential of strategic reinforcement by any combattant not directly involved in the fight.

That means no support form the Landsraad. That means you can do to the Landsraad what the Landsraad was terrified the Emperor would do to them: pick them off one by one

[GloatingSwine]

One thing about Dune is that spice production must continue no matter what. The consequence of failing to produce spice is civilization wide collapse across the whole Imperium. The Fremen don't have the ability to produce spice on an industrial level sufficient to sustain civilization, something that everyone, including the Fremen themselves, knows. The film actually quite carefully recognizes this and has Stilgar quickly acquiescence to this reality by telling Leto 'you can mine your spice,' because the alternative is to bring the power of the whole Imperium against them.


The consequence of the end of spice production is the fall of the current power structure. The spice must flow because the guild and the great houses need it to retain their current power.


As for the spice production, while "the spice must flow" sounds very nice, God-Emperor tells us the production was completely halted for hundreds of years, up to possibly three millenia and the Imperium managed to carry on (albeit at greatly reduced speed) on reserves alone.


And on this point, the fall of the current power structure was Leto's objective. He intentionally calcified the structure of the empire in order to create a great shattering upon his death, to fling humanity in uncountable directions so that no one person could ever see the future of all of it at once and end the tyranny of prescience (remembering that in Dune once the future is seen it is inevitable).

[Saintheart]

Well, I saw it if anyone cares.


I think the main thing this movie teaches us is how goddamn hard it is to adapt a book like Dune for film.

And heresy though it is, at this moment, without a rewatch to better absorb it, I actually think Lynch's '84 effort works better.

Now, part of that judgment I admit is very unfair because this is explicitly Part One, but there were distinct parts where Villenevue's effort just felt a bit ... disjointed. At 2.8 hours or whatever it's already a long damn film, but I really got the feeling they could've or had filmed a lot more scenes but just didn't have the runtime to subject an audience to them. I got the feeling that the director made a lot of cuts to scenes that probably stung like hell, this film felt like the absolute bare bones that you could get onto film while still telling the story somewhat coherently. I think someone watching both the Lynch version and this one with no knowledge of the book would more confidently figure out what's going on in with Lynch's film than with this. This is partly because it's part one, but it's also because the story is so massive there's different ways of approaching it, and I personally think Lynch's approach was a tad better or at least worked as a better summary of the whole thing.

There are massive positives. This is worth the price of a ticket if only for the spectacle, no way this film will have anywhere near the impact on a piddly 50-inch TV, you owe it to yourself to see this on a massive screen to absorb the scale of it. The production design carries this film, it was fantastic. Every spaceship on screen felt like the monolith from 2001, there's a real melancholic mood that floats over virtually every space scene or scene that contains a starship. Cinematography was gorgeous, there were one or two shots where they seem to have dipped the camera in caramel, but aside from that it was restrained use of palette, a real washed-out look. Another thing that lengthened the runtime but which I appreciated as a human being subjected to ever-increasing "amphetamine editing" by Hollywood: they actually let shots linger for more than three seconds at a time. This really worked for the material. The way they characterised the Voice made me jump out of my chair at a couple of points. And Villenevue has the soul of a painter given the sorts of images we're given.

Casting was pretty solid for the main roles: Chalomet is one of the few guys in the world who looks youthful enough to pull off a mid-to-late teenager look but has the chops to carry the role. I personally prefer Jurgen Prochnow as Leto, but Oscar Isaac did pretty well in the part. I'm spoiled by the absolutely gorgeous Francesca Annis as Jessica Atreides in the Lynch version, she was one of the most beautiful women in the world, but Rebecca Ferguson did the role justice too. Thanos, um, Brand, er, Josh Brolin as Gurney Halleck was good, or at least closer to the book than Captain Picard in Lynch's version. But then he's an amazing actor who picks his roles extremely well for his personality. Jason Momoa ... yeah, he was basically Jason Momoa, same as he does in every film he's been in ... albeit there were a couple of moments where he wasn't bad. I thought Drunk Stilgar was a brave acting choice for Javier Bardem, but Bardem lifts any film he's in, and he did so here as well. Zendaya as Chani ... eh, I think she didn't get the memo to stop playing s@$$hole M.J. from the Spider-Man films, but we'll see how she goes next film.

(On the casting of Kynes: regardless of pigmentation or reproductive organs, I just didn't think she was a very good actor or didn't give a very good performance. Maybe I'm being a little unfair because the comparison is Max von Sydow, one of the greatest actors of his generation or any other, but yeah, there were plenty of performances that were better. Also, calling Paul 'lad' when there looks to be about two minutes' birth time between her and Chalomet was a clanger in the script. Especially given we're already having to look through narrowed eyes to convince ourselves Oscar Isaac is Chalomet's character's father rather than his older brother.)

The negatives really come down to this - for me, I think it could've worked better with just a bit more plot or exposition. Or thinking a bit more about what elements of the plot were actually useful to the story. There's lots of stuff in here that obviously wasn't in the Lynch version: the ecological stations, Kynes' relationship to the Emperor, more scenes on Caladan, the bull head (really nice motif there). But ...

... well, the best example I can give is of the Shadout Mapes scenes. We basically only get two featuring her: Jessica and the crysknife, and Paul and the hunter-seeker. But both scenes are just a bit short which takes away from their purpose in the story; with Jessica, the point of the scene in the book is the gift of the crysknife (which I don't think shows up again on film, though it does in the book) and telling us more about the prophecy. But we've already got that the Bene Gesserit have seeded Arrakis with useful mythology, so what was the point of that scene, especially given Jessica and Mapes don't share any further screentime together? We can't really change the hunter-seeker scene either, but that's where the Lynch version does better: Lynch used the hunter-seeker scene to introduce Mapes, end the hunter-seeker scene, and add on that there's a traitor among the Atreides. The Villenueve version, of course, omits this intrigue element entirely, which is a valid choice given limited runtime and other stuff to focus on, but as a result, it really renders Mapes as a practically irrelevant character. We cared about her death a little in the Lynch version because she'd warned us there was a traitor at hand, but in the Villenevue version her death comes across as just ... flat, just another body in the foundations, because we haven't really known that much about her. So to me I didn't see much point to having her on film at all. It's an element that bloats the runtime for no reason.

Another one is Paul's negotiation with Kynes in the ecological station. In the books that scene was the one in which we got a sense of the Atreides' absolute loyalty to their allies and servants, and a better sense that Kynes spoke fully for the Fremen or was considering Paul's proposal on behalf of the Fremen. We don't get that full discussion in the film, possibly for runtime reasons, but ultimately it's just Paul throwing a promise of turning Arrakis into a paradise to Kynes before we cut to Aquaman again. And the scene doesn't quite work as a result.

With the Sardaukar I think they went just a bit over the top. Don't get me wrong, they were unsettling, especially that blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot from Salusa Secundus which explains where the red paint they're all being marked with is coming from, but it got a little bit cartoonish there.

That said, they certainly made a nice contrast in capability visually: in the fight on the stairs, the Atreides are holding off a big mob of Harkonnens from one direction, and then a comparatively small number of Sardaukar arrive from the opposite direction and finish the job completely. That delightful visual method of exposition was throughout the film; I was wondering how they'd show Paul's shield-slowness in the Jamis fight, and they did that beautifully: slapslapslapslapslap Paul's got his knife at Jamis' throat; slapslapslapslapslap Paul's got his knife at the throat again, cue Drunk Stilgar asking whether he's playing with the man and Jessica pointing out Paul has never killed before. (And I might say that Jamis fight worked on me a lot harder than I was expecting; by its end, the way Chalomet acted out his reaction to killing the man, I was close on the verge of tears.)

Paul's visions of the future also ... well, sort of fitted into the way they were telling the story, but man, I hope Zendaya was getting paid by the minute of screentime for this thing, she was in every damn one. I did like how maybe Paul was seeing different future visions than what actually happens; that was a neat way to visually illustrate for the Dune-conscious audience that Paul sees many available futures, not just the one ... and it also throws those who haven't read the book that Paul might be seeing his own death here (which he was. Kind of. The irony being that it was that vision, and only that one, in which the Fremen jihad is averted or has a chance of being averted. I think later on in the book Paul concludes that it would've taken the death of everyone in or watching that fight to stop it.) I would've liked a little more variety in the actual jihad vision itself - could we not afford to film somewhere that's not so obviously where we shot the Caladan scenes? - but this was one of the ways where the film excelled, or faced up to the task of telling a story without substantially doing interior monologues of the book or the Lynch film.

So ... yeah. Ultimately I think it's a better fan film of Dune than it is an exceptional telling of the Dune story, but it's a hard story to tell and the experience of watching it was just something else.