Exhaustion is an underused mechanic

[Greywander]

First, nothing should be immune to exhaustion. "But what about-" yes, I'm getting to that.

Second, certain creatures should have specific things that do or don't cause exhaustion.

Third, spells that remove exhaustion need limitations.

I think there's a lot of interesting things that could be done by leaning on exhaustion as a limiter. For example, a magic system where you have to pass a roll or gain a level of exhaustion each time you cast a spell, but can otherwise cast unlimited spells. This becomes tricky when you have creatures that are outright immune to exhaustion, and that clever players can find a way to become (e.g. through Magic Jar). I've dealt with this in my own homebrew by simply specifying an immunity to "mundane" exhaustion, specifically excluding race/class features and magical effects, but this is cumbersome to write out over and over.

But it could also be really interesting just to have certain creatures become exhausted by different things. Maybe a dragon is indifferent to extreme heat or cold, but becomes physically weakened if aren't able to lay on a bed of gold. The bigger the dragon, the more gold they need for it to rejuvenate them. Vampires could treat sunlight similar to how normal creatures treat extreme heat or cold, making periodic CON checks to avoid exhaustion while in sunlight. And so on. We can even roughly organize these into different categories:

Sustenance. Something the creature must consume regularly, or else become exhausted. The consumed substance is destroyed (contrast with Comfort) or at least significantly altered. The quantity of substance that must be consumed, and the frequency in which it must be consumed, can both be tweaked to best fit the creature in question. Air, food, and drink all fall into this category.

Alternatively, perhaps consuming this substance is what causes exhaustion. This substance is then essentially a poison that weakens the creature.

Comfort. Something the creature must be touching or in close proximity to, or else become exhausted. How long the creature must be in contact with the comfort, how close the creature needs to be to the comfort, and how frequently they require that comfort, can all be adjusted.

Alternatively, perhaps proximity to this "discomfort" is what causes exhaustion. Being close to certain objects, creatures, or places might be what weakens the creature.

Ritual. Something the creature must do regularly, or else become exhausted. How long that ritual requires, and how frequently it must be performed, can both be adjusted. Sleep falls into this category.

Alternatively, perhaps performing certain actions is what causes exhaustion. Some sort of act or deed goes against the nature of that creature, such that it physically tires them to perform that deed.

Exposure. Each creature has their own set of natural conditions under which they thrive. Exposure to a deviation of those natural conditions can cause exhaustion. The specific condition of exposure, and the length of time the creature can be exposed, can both be adjusted. Heat and cold fall into this category.

Unlike the above categories, there is no "reversal" for this category. Instead, simply define different and unusual conditions that a creature can or can't be exposed to.

To see how a system such as this can produce some interesting results, try using random items for each type above. For example, you might have a creature who consumes sound and stays away from clocks, and has to wash their boots regularly and won't go outside in the rain. This could make for a very interesting system whereby players could identify and exploit a monster's specific weaknesses in order to bring down a monster that is normally too strong. Or, for PCs, it could make for interesting roleplay (or be annoying, YMMV).

[Mjolnirbear]

Merfolk or tritons suffer exhaustion if not regularly able to submerge in water.

Kobolds need to rest in enclosed places or where they can worship dragons.

Beholders suffer exhaustion when dreaming creator dreams.

Dwarves suffer exhaustion without booze. Elves suffer if outside their element (forest for wood elves, sunlight for sun elves, feywild for eladrin) for too long.

I really like the dragon thing especially, but you'd almost have to rewrite half the monster manual, and...monsters are usually kinda speedbumps to more and greater adventures. It would only really matter for lore, world-building, PCs or bbegs.

[DarknessEternal]

It needs to stay that way unless you're going to also introduce ways to get rid of it.

[Chaos Jackal]

The problem with exhaustion is that, as written, it's extremely sticky and the ways around avoiding or healing it are very limited in number and in scope. Situations (or, assuming something like what you're suggesting, features and requirements) that can rapidly accumulate exhaustion essentially make many long-term ventures or reliance on features/dependence on limitations impossible. Long resting only removes one exhaustion level and so does greater restoration. And it's not like the effects of exhaustion are negligible; if not from the get-go, then by the second level you're already in trouble.

The Berserker subclass is the most obvious example of how annoying and crippling exhaustion can get, with the exhaustion it accumulates from its basic feature being the primary reason it often appears in lists of the worst subclasses in the game. Use your feature, potentially have trouble; use your feature again in the day, compromise your entire adventure if it's not a single-day affair and/or you lack greater restoration; use it thrice or a couple times in back-to-back days and more or less shoot yourself in the foot.

Using exhaustion more isn't a bad idea ultimately, but in and of itself it's not gonna work, and limiting the ways to fix it or avoid it is a bad idea if you plan on keeping it as effective and sticky as it currently is; again, rest or greater restoration are already limited in effectiveness as is. Perhaps consider allowing rest to remove more levels of exhaustion, or decrease the potency of some of the levels. Or make the checks you suggested yourself be rather easy to pass. Maybe make exhaustion effects resulting from dependencies be removable the same way the exhaustion from sickening radiance is. Otherwise, I feel like you're gonna end up with a party that's carrying exhaustion levels basically every time they decide to do anything that requires more than a couple days. And possibly with monsters and villains too.

[Kane0]

I like to make more use of Exhaustion (when dropped to 0 HP, a few new spells and items, weather/environment, etc) but at the same time I change Lesser Restoration to recover 1 level of Exhaustion and Greater Restoration all levels of Exhaustion.

[Chronic]

I've recently started to write an alternate rule set to 5e to refine the experience, and I too decided use the exhaustion mechanic more often. Every time someone drop to 0, he gets an exhaustion level, being resurrected inflict 1d3 exhaustion level (but doesn't cumulate with previously acquired level). The lack of proper food or rest can inflict exhaustion quicker.
However it does come with class balance too. The list is rather extensive so I'm not gonna get into detail but I chose to give an ability to ranger and barbarian, to dissipate exhaustion entirely after a long rest except the one from lack of food and water. I also reinforced their skills et when it comes to survival in the wild, making them the outdoorsman classes.

[Zuras]

The problem with exhaustion is that the first thing it does is make everyone terrible at out of combat stuff, which is incredibly disruptive to the flow of the adventure. It isn’t a fun or entertaining effect at all, it just makes everyone feel incompetent.

What’s worse is that it’s totally opposite to all the fiction. Heroes always rise to the occasion despite their exhaustion, which is the exact opposite of what happens in the 5e rules. It’s a death spiral mechanic, as well—initial failures in CON checks or survival checks lead to disadvantage on subsequent checks and further failures, with little to no player ability to influence things.

Exhaustion would need some sort of reworking to be a viable DM tool that harasses rather than flattens players. Most obvious fix would be that you can spend a hit die to ignore all effects of exhaustion till your next turn.

[togapika]

Second, certain creatures should have specific things that do or don't cause exhaustion.


You mean like the Berserker Barbarian? I'd include a burn emoji here, but there isn't one



Dwarves suffer exhaustion without booze.

So dwarves are an entire race of drunks?


Please explain to me how undead creatures without a Con score and without any specific weaknesses can become exhausted?

[PhantomSoul]

Please explain to me how undead creatures without a Con score and without any specific weaknesses can become exhausted?

They're just REALLY tired of being asked that exact question!

[Hytheter]

Please explain to me how undead creatures without a Con score

Undead do have Con scores. This isn't 3rd edition anymore.

[Keltest]

Personally ive had good mileage using exhaustion as a consequence of a failed check whenever the players want to do something with high risk. Jump a chasm? If you fail the check, you either barely make it and are exhausted, or are exhausted and still on the same side depending on context. It has encouraged my players to take more risks of that nature since failure doesnt automatically equal death.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Personally ive had good mileage using exhaustion as a consequence of a failed check whenever the players want to do something with high risk. Jump a chasm? If you fail the check, you either barely make it and are exhausted, or are exhausted and still on the same side depending on context. It has encouraged my players to take more risks of that nature since failure doesnt automatically equal death.

But fewer risks than if failure meant something else. 1 rank of exhaustion is basically "you don't get to participate out of combat unless you can cast spells".

The outcome of failure rarely should be death or even significant maiming. Because that's just Save or Die/Save or Suck translated to ability checks. And that's crappy design IMO.

[Keltest]

But fewer risks than if failure meant something else. 1 rank of exhaustion is basically "you don't get to participate out of combat unless you can cast spells".

The outcome of failure rarely should be death or even significant maiming. Because that's just Save or Die/Save or Suck translated to ability checks. And that's crappy design IMO.

That hasnt been my experience. Disadvantage is not that overwhelming a penalty.

[PhantomSoul]

That hasnt been my experience. Disadvantage is not that overwhelming a penalty.

Especially for ability checks! (Grapplers care, but even then they have other tactics aplenty usually)

[stoutstien]

That hasnt been my experience. Disadvantage is not that overwhelming a penalty.

Depend on how many critical checks are going to have to make before they can remove the exhaustion. Someone above mentioned the death spiral and this is why. say you need at least a 10 to pass and the player doesn't have a way of canceling out that disadvantage they go from a 55% down to 30%. The odds of only passing 2 checks is now roughly 9%. disadvantage doesn't play nice with the ability check system.

[Amechra]

I think you could get away with giving people Exhaustion more frequently if you also gave everyone the Lucky feat for free. The way that Lucky effectively transforms disadvantage into super-advantage would give you a "heroic second wind" feeling.

[Lorka]

I plan to use exhaustion more in my new campaign. You regenerate 1 level on short rest, 3 (or more) on long rest.

Bards Song of Rest regenerate 1 level. So do lesser restoration.

Berserkers frenzy don’t have a cost.

Haven’t really play tested anything yet.

[Chronic]

The death spiral thing isn't really a reality in my games, but it also has to do with my group and the tempo of adventure. I don't run a large number of combat encounter per day usually. And social encounters and exploration aren't limited to skill check either. Usually like to present a number of options to my player, with also the opportunity to create options of their own if they have good and realistic ideas. These options are rarely just bad or just good, but they have consequences, like choosing to protect the villager will likely save more or all of them, but might allow their target to get away. Successful skill checks will provide insight, or strengthen or damper the position of the group.
Even in combat, exhaustion and scarcity of ressources isn't necessarily a bad thing. They are supposed to get everything the way they do Everytime, sometime they will have to preserve their lives or risk dying doing the right thing, sometime they will succeed at a cost.

All of that to say that exhaustion is a decent mechanic when you play under certain conditions.

[Pex]

That hasnt been my experience. Disadvantage is not that overwhelming a penalty.

It is when you have to roll with disadvantage for the entire game session or two because the party hasn't long rested. For a particular instance it may not be so bad. Even with disadvantage your lowest roll could be Natural 16. The problem is every roll you make being at disadvantage, and that makes the game unfun for the player which is the true penalty. That's just one level of exhaustion.

[Chronic]

Why would it be unfun necessarily? Juste because exhaustion could be used more doesn't mean every pc should be afflicted by it all the time. And having disadvantage doesn't mean that the player will fail necessarily.

[Keltest]

Why would it be unfun necessarily? Juste because exhaustion could be used more doesn't mean every pc should be afflicted by it all the time. And having disadvantage doesn't mean that the player will fail necessarily.

Indeed. This talk is smacking of "penalizing the player in any way is badwrong because then they arent winning all the time." That seems like a silly attitude to take to me.

[Eric Diaz]

I like the Exhaustion mechanic, but it is too punishing for most uses. I do like your ideas about certain creatures needing special things, since these are like food or water - which already causes exhaustion.

HD, on the other hand, could have many additional uses...

[KorvinStarmast]

Re: Exhaustion is an underused mechanic
As a mechanic it's a piece of crap. The degradation bit isn't a bad scheme, but the recovery piece is hot garbage.

All it needs to be better is a better recovery scheme.
1 level from Lesser Restoration (2d level spell slot)
1 level after a short rest on a CON save of (pick a number) 12, 14, 15, 20. Pick one that makes it uncertain.
Two levels after a long rest.
All levels removed by Greater Restoration (level 5 spell slot).

Exhaustion is a condition. There are a variety of spells and features that remove conditions. Exhaustion needs to be treated similarly.

[Pex]

Why would it be unfun necessarily? Juste because exhaustion could be used more doesn't mean every pc should be afflicted by it all the time. And having disadvantage doesn't mean that the player will fail necessarily.


Indeed. This talk is smacking of "penalizing the player in any way is badwrong because then they arent winning all the time." That seems like a silly attitude to take to me.

Because it's the entire game session (or two), not just one encounter or real world hour. The longer it lasts the worse the emotional impact. At some point you want it over with already.

[sithlordnergal]

Indeed. This talk is smacking of "penalizing the player in any way is badwrong because then they arent winning all the time." That seems like a silly attitude to take to me.


Why would it be unfun necessarily? Juste because exhaustion could be used more doesn't mean every pc should be afflicted by it all the time. And having disadvantage doesn't mean that the player will fail necessarily.

Its less that "penalizing the player in any way is badwrong", and more that "having to roll disadvantage on every check gets annoying really quickly". Sure doing that for one session isn't bad in and of itself, but if your DM makes it easier to get levels of Exhaustion without making it easier to get rid of Exhaustion, then you're probably going to roll with disadvantage multiple sessions in a row. And if you're rolling everything with disadvantage for multiple sessions, that's going to annoy get really annoying really quickly.

[Kane0]

I find it's very helpful to also include the common houserule that advantage/disadvantage cancel on a 1:1 basis rather than one source of one completely negating all sources of the other. That way you can more effectively deal with the disadvantage from exhaustion without gaming the system.

[Keltest]

Because it's the entire game session (or two), not just one encounter or real world hour. The longer it lasts the worse the emotional impact. At some point you want it over with already.

I mean, the players could be really crazy and say "ok, we clearly arent being productive anymore, lets take a nap and replenish our strength" and take a long rest. Its not like they have to keep going with it.

[sithlordnergal]

First, nothing should be immune to exhaustion. "But what about-" yes, I'm getting to that.

I think there's a lot of interesting things that could be done by leaning on exhaustion as a limiter. For example, a magic system where you have to pass a roll or gain a level of exhaustion each time you cast a spell, but can otherwise cast unlimited spells. This becomes tricky when you have creatures that are outright immune to exhaustion, and that clever players can find a way to become (e.g. through Magic Jar). I've dealt with this in my own homebrew by simply specifying an immunity to "mundane" exhaustion, specifically excluding race/class features and magical effects, but this is cumbersome to write out over and over.


First, I disagree with you that "nothing should be immune to exhaustion". Now, funnily enough there really aren't many things immune to Exhaustion, its mostly relegated to Constructs, the 4 main Elementals, Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, and some undead. Interestingly enough Zombies and Vampires aren't immune to Exhaustion, where as Skeletons, Ghosts, and Revenants are immune. I feel like they were baking the Exhaustion immunity into the creature's lore, in a way. I.E. Constructs are magic robots and robots can't get exhausted, Elementals, Skeletons, and Ghosts lack a proper corporeal form and are therefore immune, and Revenants are fueled by a desire for vengeance so strong that not even death hinders them.

Now, the mundane vs. magical/special Exhaustion could be an interesting way to play around Exhaustion Immunity, but as you said that's pretty cumbersome. I think you may as well leave Exhaustion immune creatures to be immune to Exhaustion. Sure there are some ways for a player to gain Exhaustion Immunity with this, but those methods are actually a lot rarer than you think. The Magic Jar method actually wouldn't work as a way to become immune to Exhaustion, as Magic Jar only works on Humanoids, and as far as I know there are no Humanoids immune to Exhaustion. The only two ways I can think of for a player to gain Exhaustion Immunity is via True Polymorph, which isn't a great way to gain it since its a 9th level spell and you lose all of your character's stats, Shapechange, another 9th level spell that only lasts an hour and you need to have seen a creature that's immune to Exhaustion but isn't an Undead or Construct, and a Moon Druid's 10th level ability, which eats up both Wild Shapes and only lasts for a number of hours equal to half the Druid's level. Additionally, all three methods are shut down by Anti-Magic Field, and two of those are spells that can be Dispelled. So there's really no guaranteed way for players to become immune to Exhaustion.



Third, spells that remove exhaustion need limitations.


Not really...In total, you have 7 spells that can remove levels of Exhaustion. 5 of those spells are ones that raise you from the dead, so things like Raise Dead, Revivify, True Resurrection, ect. And while those spells can technically be used to remove one level of Exhaustion, that's not really what they're made for, and I can't see many parties abusing that mechanic. For one, it makes no RP sense for a PC to kill themselves just to remove 1 level of Exhaustion via Revivify, and two it costs more then it would using the other two spells. Revivify is the cheapest spell to bring someone back from the dead, and that requires a 300gp Diamond that gets consumed, meanwhile Greater Restoration costs 100 gp. The only two times being raised from the dead is more cost effective is if you're a Zealot Barbarian, and thus let casters ignore the spell component costs to bring you back from the dead, or if you're a Wild Magic Sorcerer that will Reincarnate if you die in the next minute.

Outside of being raised from the dead, the only other ways to remove Exhaustion are:


Greater Restoration: A 5th level spell that requires Diamond Dust worth 100gp that gets consumed to cast
Wish: A 9th level spell that can either recreate Greater Restoration or be used to remove all Exhaustion levels, but if you do the latter you have a 33% chance of losing Wish permanently, have 3 Strength for 2d4 days, and if you cast any other spells you take 1d10 per spell level Necrotic damage
Potion of Vitality: A Very Rare potion, so they're hard to find
Charm of Vitality: A special charm/reward the DM can hand out that mimics a Potion of Vitality
Long Resting


So I'd say the spells that remove exhaustion are already pretty limited. The majority of them are spells that bring you back from the dead, and have costs ranging from 300gp and 500gp to 1,000 or 25,000 gp. Meanwhile the other two options require a 100gp spell component that the DM can limit, or require you to being a Wizard with 9th level spell slots.



But it could also be really interesting just to have certain creatures become exhausted by different things. Maybe a dragon is indifferent to extreme heat or cold, but becomes physically weakened if aren't able to lay on a bed of gold. The bigger the dragon, the more gold they need for it to rejuvenate them. Vampires could treat sunlight similar to how normal creatures treat extreme heat or cold, making periodic CON checks to avoid exhaustion while in sunlight. And so on. We can even roughly organize these into different categories:

~SNIP~

So, I gotta admit those ideas are all really awesome in their own right. It'd be pretty fun and immersive to apply such ideas to a game. However, you'd probably need to rework the Exhaustion mechanic. While sustenance and exposure are already woven into the game, comfort and ritual could unintentionally cause far more levels of exhaustion than expected. As it currently stands in RAW, Exhaustion is far too deadly and difficult to get rid of in order to implement a system like that, unless you're playing a game where players expect to die very often. After all, it only takes 6 levels of Exhaustion to die, and even before you reach 6 levels you're going to be screwed pretty hard. 1 level grants disadvantage on all ability checks, 2 levels halve your speed, 3 gives disadvantage on attacks and saves, 4 halves your max HP, and 5 sets your speed to 0.

Now if the Exhaustion mechanic was reworked to be easier to recover from and wasn't as debilitating, then I'd love that sort of system. As it currently stands though, your players would likely always have at least 1 level of exhaustion due to basic adventuring since they'd probably fail to meet the Comfort requirement.

[sithlordnergal]

I mean, the players could be really crazy and say "ok, we clearly arent being productive anymore, lets take a nap and replenish our strength" and take a long rest. Its not like they have to keep going with it.

Depends on the DM...As a personal rule, I don't let my players take Long Rests whenever they want. Usually I interrupt them if they try to take a long rest early...and I'll even interrupt them when I say they can have a long rest just to keep the pressure on. Its a good way to prevent 5 minute adventuring days. Same holds true with Short Rests.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Depends on the DM...As a personal rule, I don't let my players take Long Rests whenever they want. Usually I interrupt them if they try to take a long rest early...and I'll even interrupt them when I say they can have a long rest just to keep the pressure on. Its a good way to prevent 5 minute adventuring days. Same holds true with Short Rests.

I don't go this far, but I do enforce the "only one LR in 24 hours" rule. Which, combined with credible ticking clocks[1] and dangerous environments, means that willingness to "catch a quick nap" (which isn't what I'd call 6 hours of sleep anyway) is much lower.

[1] Usually not of the "do it today" variety, but the "the world doesn't stand still while you rest" variety.

[Pex]

I mean, the players could be really crazy and say "ok, we clearly arent being productive anymore, lets take a nap and replenish our strength" and take a long rest. Its not like they have to keep going with it.

Depends on where and when the exhaustion happens. Players cannot always take a long rest whenever they want to. They're also less likely to take one when it's only one PC suffering the exhaustion but everyone else is perfectly fine and at or near full health and class ability resources.

[Keltest]

Depends on where and when the exhaustion happens. Players cannot always take a long rest whenever they want to. They're also less likely to take one when it's only one PC suffering the exhaustion but everyone else is perfectly fine and at or near full health and class ability resources.

Well that balances out their decision making process. Sure, you can try to cross the gap without diverting to find a bridge, but if you fail then you have to take a longer delay, suffer with a level of exhaustion, or burn the resources for a Greater Restoration (if available).

As opposed to failure meaning "you fall into the chasm and die."

[Zuras]

Why would it be unfun necessarily? Just because exhaustion could be used more doesn't mean every pc should be afflicted by it all the time. And having disadvantage doesn't mean that the player will fail necessarily.

If you have a skill based character, and one bad roll turns all your other rolls to garbage for the entire session, it isn’t fun at all. Especially when the mechanic is such garbage that you become too tired to talk coherently long before your exhaustion makes it harder to accurately swing a sword.

The fact that disadvantage on skill checks is the first thing that happens in the process shows how little regard the designers had for the skill system. Even when too tired to move, with 5 levels of exhaustion and reduced to speed 0, a Wizard can still cast all their spells without any difficulties whatsoever.

If you start using exhaustion heavily, all it will do is give more evidence supporting the complaint that only casters are allowed to have reliable solutions to problems.

[Contrast]

I mean, the players could be really crazy and say "ok, we clearly arent being productive anymore, lets take a nap and replenish our strength" and take a long rest. Its not like they have to keep going with it.

I'd say this is probably an outcome you want to discourage more than one you want to encourage. Many tables already have problems challenging players because of too frequent long resting.


On a separate note, I actually really dislike the Exhaustion mechanic. Firstly, it can make a single typically uninteresting dice roll be disproportionately impactful. I was once playing an AL module and the first roll of the module was to resist a level of exhaustion from travelling in the cold. The rogue failed and sucked the rest of the entire adventure.

Secondly, and more importantly, it is disproportionately impactful on different classes. A melee character on 2 exhaustion has real problems. Any martial character on 3 exhaustion is crippled. Meanwhile a caster can still be contributing substantially even on 4 or 5 exhaustion.

It seems silly to me that wizards typically deal with exhaustion better than martial classes.

So I don't necessarily object to exhaustion being used more but I would like to see the mechanic reworked entirely before I'd adopt it.

[Keltest]

I'd say this is probably an outcome you want to discourage more than one you want to encourage. Many tables already have problems challenging players because of too frequent long resting.


On a separate note, I actually really dislike the Exhaustion mechanic. Firstly, it can make a single typically uninteresting dice roll be disproportionately impactful. I was once playing an AL module and the first roll of the module was to resist a level of exhaustion from travelling in the cold. The rogue failed and sucked the rest of the entire adventure.

Secondly, and more importantly, it is disproportionately impactful on different classes. A melee character on 2 exhaustion has real problems. Any martial character on 3 exhaustion is crippled. Meanwhile a caster can still be contributing substantially even on 4 or 5 exhaustion.

It seems silly to me that wizards typically deal with exhaustion better than martial classes.

So I don't necessarily object to exhaustion being used more but I would like to see the mechanic reworked entirely before I'd adopt it.

Casters already have a "i need a long rest or none of my class features will work" mechanic built into them, and i'd wager it shows up far more often than martials get to serious levels of exhaustion.

[Amechra]

It seems silly to me that wizards typically deal with exhaustion better than martial classes.

For some reason, spellcasters in 5e were designed to be the opposite of the "squishy wizard" trope. After all, you have more of an incentive to buy up Constitution on a Wizard than you do with, say, a Fighter. I'd personally put some kind of spell failure chance at 2+ exhaustion.

In that specific case of "save vs. exhaustion due to the extreme cold", I'd let a short rest somewhere warm clear that.

[Joe the Rat]

I don't think there's a need to limit means of removing exhaustion further - they're already pretty limited. Of course the other side of it is the exhaustion scale has some terrific uses - it's my go to for truly debilitating diseases and deadly poisons (roll per interval: each fail is a level of exhaustion, each success leaves you stable, three successes shakes it off)

I'm inclined to pool this with my favorite underused resource: Hit Dice. Spending Hit Dice is lest crazy regeneration as recovering some of your fight stamina and will to push - which feels very much like the same sort of reserve pool. Burn a hit Die on a short rest to remove a level. Burn hit die after a long rest to remove additional levels (first one's free!). You are using your deep reserves to keep pushing forward, but you are not going to be able to keep going forever, particularly if you insist on getting into fights all the time.

[Amechra]

You know, something like "the first hit-die you spend each first rest doesn't count" could actually be a pretty solid way to get across that a given area is inhospitable.

[Garresh]

Exhaustion is an underused mechanic because it's implented in a really garbage way. Even one level can screw you. There's no buildup at all. I never want to use it as a player or dm because it just breaks the flow of the game.

[Greywander]

I suppose I better chime back in on this thread. At first it got very little attention, then suddenly exploded.

Re; Removing Exhaustion and Greater Restoration, yeah, I goofed up. For some reason, I thought Greater Restoration removed all exhaustion, not just one level. It would still be kind of weird if you were using a magic system with infinite casting but a chance to gain exhaustion, but (a) you could add a clause that magic can't remove that exhaustion, and (b) Greater Restoration does have a gp cost, so it's never actually free to use, even with infinite spellcasting.

I think I was getting it mixed up with Greater Restoration restoring max HP reductions, which is another mechanic I've considered using for homebrew. Though now that I double check that, it looks like it only removes one effect per casting that reduces max HP, rather than fully restoring all max HP. Eh, maybe it was ability score reductions I was thinking of.

Re; Exhaustion is excessively burdensome to players, do also consider that exhaustion can be weaponized against enemies. Have you ever actually seen the players try to make an NPC exhausted? I feel like this could make for some really cool and fun moments, where the players try to trick or manipulate an NPC into becoming exhausted in order to make a fight easier, or even to make non-combat stuff easier, like persuasion.

Something else I should probably also point out is that I'm not advocating for it to be easier for PCs to become exhausted. It may have sounded like I wanted to add extra ways for a PC to become exhausted (or, at least, I recall someone seeming to have interpreted it that way), but this isn't the case. Instead, what I was saying was that some creatures that are very different from standard humans, such as fey, might have unique ways of becoming exhausted, and that these might replace the more normal ways of becoming exhausted. See, for example, the example in the OP where dragons don't care about heat or cold, but need to sleep on a bed of gold. One method of becoming exhausted is exchanged for another. If you are playing an unusual PC who has different exhaustion parameters, then it shouldn't necessarily be easier or harder to become exhausted, just different.

Re; Exhaustion is a crap mechanic, I think this is fair. Fortunately, the exhaustion mechanic isn't heavily tied into the rest of the rules, so you could rewrite it almost completely fairly easily. About the only thing you'd need to keep is the multiple stages, but you could even change how many stages there are in total. Exhaustion also touches so few other rules that you could probably rewrite those as well without too much trouble.

Re; Some creatures should be immune to exhaustion, again, I just think they should have different parameters for what causes exhaustion. Most undead don't require air, food, drink, or sleep. That's fine. But maybe they have more esoteric weaknesses that inflict exhaustion on them instead? The weaknesses a creature has can also tell you a lot about that creature as well, adding a lot of flavor to what might be an otherwise bland monster.

[OvisCaedo]

I do think the idea of particularly supernatural creatures (fey especially, as you mentioned) having weird unique anathemas for players to try to exploit against them is an interesting one that could add more potential, but not required, angles for a party to approach things. Adds some more benefit to trying to gain knowledge, too. But I'm not so sure that exhaustion is the ideal system to saddle such a concept onto.

[Joe the Rat]

I suppose the next piece of all of this is to revisit the scale itself.

While the length of it is falling into rough survival, the effects of deprivation, etc., it's not something you are likely to interact with outside of no-provisions desert marches and the occasional berserker. It seems exceedingly rare for players to want to push their characters into The Scale, given the costs. So what would be a gentler on-ramp - something where carrying a point would be an inconvenience, but worth the risk?

[Valorant]

The problem with exhaustion is that the first thing it does is make everyone terrible at out of combat stuff, which is incredibly disruptive to the flow of the adventure. It isn’t a fun or entertaining effect at all, it just makes everyone feel incompetent.

What’s worse is that it’s totally opposite to all the fiction. Heroes always rise to the occasion despite their exhaustion, which is the exact opposite of what happens in the 5e rules. It’s a death spiral mechanic, as well—initial failures in CON checks or survival checks lead to disadvantage on subsequent checks and further failures, with little to no player ability to influence things.

Exhaustion would need some sort of reworking to be a viable DM tool that harasses rather than flattens players. Most obvious fix would be that you can spend a hit die to ignore all effects of exhaustion till your next turn.

This so much. 1 out of six levels of exhaustion and suddenly cleric is worse at religion, wizard at arcana and bard at playing lute. Its not heroic at all. If short rest was removing exhaustion then I would use it more but as it is right now I rarely use because it's also a spiral mechanic as Zuras explained above which is terrible design for mechanic where final stage is death

[Willie the Duck]

Re; Exhaustion is a crap mechanic, I think this is fair. Fortunately, the exhaustion mechanic isn't heavily tied into the rest of the rules, so you could rewrite it almost completely fairly easily. About the only thing you'd need to keep is the multiple stages, but you could even change how many stages there are in total. Exhaustion also touches so few other rules that you could probably rewrite those as well without too much trouble.

I think lots of people could get behind some other kind of exhaustion mechanic. Other games have exhaustion (or really the opposite, Endurance or Fatigue Point pools) as ways to pay spells or ability uses. I don't know if D&D specifically needs exactly that, but something like that -- a form of thing you can expend to gain A, B or C; or consequence for reckless attempts; or something to lose if you X, Y or Z. There could be direct consequences (minus to checks per point of exhaustion), or just a limited pool (i.e. "your character is exhausted." "what does that mean?" "only that they can't perform actions that make you exhausted until you have become un-exhausted"). Regardless, I think people are spot on with the existing structure-- it is too non-granular for to emulate any slow, creeping detrimental effect like starvation or forced marching; the initial consequence state too draconian for anything a DM would hope their players might flirt with; the difficulty in recovering levels is too challenging (excepting when the DM just lets players Long Rest whenever they like, which is a state of affairs which causes problems with all sorts of 5e mechanics) to give the players any levers to work with except 'try never to interact with this system if at all possible' --so this alternate system should try to do things differently.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think lots of people could get behind some other kind of exhaustion mechanic. Other games have exhaustion (or really the opposite, Endurance or Fatigue Point pools) as ways to pay spells or ability uses. I don't know if D&D specifically needs exactly that, but something like that -- a form of thing you can expend to gain A, B or C; or consequence for reckless attempts; or something to lose if you X, Y or Z. There could be direct consequences (minus to checks per point of exhaustion), or just a limited pool (i.e. "your character is exhausted." "what does that mean?" "only that they can't perform actions that make you exhausted until you have become un-exhausted"). Regardless, I think people are spot on with the existing structure-- it is too non-granular for to emulate any slow, creeping detrimental effect like starvation or forced marching; the initial consequence state too draconian for anything a DM would hope their players might flirt with; the difficulty in recovering levels is too challenging (excepting when the DM just lets players Long Rest whenever they like, which is a state of affairs which causes problems with all sorts of 5e mechanics) to give the players any levers to work with except 'try never to interact with this system if at all possible' --so this alternate system should try to do things differently.

I mean, I wouldn't mind more "tracked" conditions, like 4e's diseases. Where instead of all or nothing, you had stages, each with a recovery mechanism. But I agree that exhaustion, as written, doesn't do a good job of this.

[Sorinth]

Since reworking the exhaustion table seems to be popular what are peoples suggestions?

If disadvantage to all ability checks is too unpleasant as first level what about only a select few ability checks like: Initiative, Athletics, Acrobatics, and Perception. So you are slower in fights, more likely to be grappled, and more likely to be ambushed/surprised. But out of combat you can still use your skills.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Since reworking the exhaustion table seems to be popular what are peoples suggestions?

If disadvantage to all ability checks is too unpleasant as first level what about only a select few ability checks like: Initiative, Athletics, Acrobatics, and Perception. So you are slower in fights, more likely to be grappled, and more likely to be ambushed/surprised. But out of combat you can still use your skills.

Still hits casters (you know, the comparatively weak, wimpy types) lighter than fighters/barbarians (ie the strong, tough types). Add something that makes spell-casting not work as well (say "you have disadvantage on Concentration checks") and we might be in the ballpark.

I know that personally, my mind gets exhausted when I'm low on sleep way before my body does. Brain fog is a real thing.

[stoutstien]

Since reworking the exhaustion table seems to be popular what are peoples suggestions?

If disadvantage to all ability checks is too unpleasant as first level what about only a select few ability checks like: Initiative, Athletics, Acrobatics, and Perception. So you are slower in fights, more likely to be grappled, and more likely to be ambushed/surprised. But out of combat you can still use your skills.

To could get a similar effect with more gracious impact by just saying that the first level exhaustion makes you incapable of having advantage on any ability checks.

[Sorinth]

Still hits casters (you know, the comparatively weak, wimpy types) lighter than fighters/barbarians (ie the strong, tough types). Add something that makes spell-casting not work as well (say "you have disadvantage on Concentration checks") and we might be in the ballpark.

I know that personally, my mind gets exhausted when I'm low on sleep way before my body does. Brain fog is a real thing.

A counterpoint would be that since DCs are generally fairly low it impacts the Fighter/Barbarians less then the weak caster types. For example if the group of low level PCs gets attacked by some Giant Spiders who web everyone, the Fighter/Barbarian still has a reasonable chance to pass that DC 12 check despite having disadvantage, the Wizard with -1 to their check on the other hand has very little chance. And yes I know there are other ways of getting free, it's just an example to show how the DC is actually a big factor.

[PhoenixPhyre]

A counterpoint would be that since DCs are generally fairly low it impacts the Fighter/Barbarians less then the weak caster types. For example if the group of low level PCs gets attacked by some Giant Spiders who web everyone, the Fighter/Barbarian still has a reasonable chance to pass that DC 12 check despite having disadvantage, the Wizard with -1 to their check on the other hand has very little chance. And yes I know there are other ways of getting free, it's just an example to show how the DC is actually a big factor.

Maybe if you limited it to checks made to escape grapples. But fighters and barbarians (and other martials) are the ones who are also trying to impose grapples, as well as shove, etc. While the wizards have spells that do it for them, no check needed.

That's what I'm getting at here--any penalizing of ability checks hits the people who can't avoid them more. And casters have many more ways of avoiding checks entirely.

[False God]

The problem with exhaustion is that the first thing it does is make everyone terrible at out of combat stuff, which is incredibly disruptive to the flow of the adventure. It isn’t a fun or entertaining effect at all, it just makes everyone feel incompetent.

What’s worse is that it’s totally opposite to all the fiction. Heroes always rise to the occasion despite their exhaustion, which is the exact opposite of what happens in the 5e rules. It’s a death spiral mechanic, as well—initial failures in CON checks or survival checks lead to disadvantage on subsequent checks and further failures, with little to no player ability to influence things.

Exhaustion would need some sort of reworking to be a viable DM tool that harasses rather than flattens players. Most obvious fix would be that you can spend a hit die to ignore all effects of exhaustion till your next turn.

This was my general experience with it as well while running a survival/exploration campaign. There were a lot of ways to get exhaustion which felt natural and normal (bad weather, having to move through the night to find shelter, etc...) but then it sort of led into a "death spiral" where the next day, everyone was was still sitting at 1 exhaustion. Everything was at disadvantage which just made it easier to rack up more exhaustion. Again this felt normal for the campaign but it really got in the way of having fun.

The idea that a player could potentially burn a HD is an interesting one though, I'd probably be inclined to let a HD remove a whole exhaustion point though.

Feel like D&D is really in dire need of a Fatigue/Willpower mechanic.

I agree with the OP that exhaustion is underused, but as it is, it's more of an impediment to playing the game than an enhancement.

[Sorinth]

Maybe if you limited it to checks made to escape grapples. But fighters and barbarians (and other martials) are the ones who are also trying to impose grapples, as well as shove, etc. While the wizards have spells that do it for them, no check needed.

That's what I'm getting at here--any penalizing of ability checks hits the people who can't avoid them more. And casters have many more ways of avoiding checks entirely.

Sure but many of the shove/prone abilities force the opponent to make a save so would be unaffected like all the Battlemaster Maneuvers, or an Open Hand monk using FoB. Barbarians are probably raging so cancel out the disadvantage, etc... Also consider that gaining that Exhaustion is probably a check/save that favours the Martial to begin with so the hardiness of the martials is partly being represented by not gaining that level of exhaustion in the first place.

But honestly I don't really see the issue with a certain tactic that requires lots of strength to be negatively impacted when exhausted since at worst it's merely forcing the player to use a different tactic, and it's a niche tactic to begin with.

Casters avoiding a skill check by spending a spell slot is quite unrelated. I know a lot of people believe spells make the skill system irrelevant but whether true or not is irrelevant to what Exhaustion should do. Trying to fix the whole martial vs caster for skills via exhaustion seems like a terrible idea.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sure but many of the shove/prone abilities force the opponent to make a save so would be unaffected like all the Battlemaster Maneuvers, or an Open Hand monk using FoB. Barbarians are probably raging so cancel out the disadvantage, etc... Also consider that gaining that Exhaustion is probably a check/save that favours the Martial to begin with so the hardiness of the martials is partly being represented by not gaining that level of exhaustion in the first place.

But honestly I don't really see the issue with a certain tactic that requires lots of strength to be negatively impacted when exhausted since at worst it's merely forcing the player to use a different tactic, and it's a niche tactic to begin with.

Casters avoiding a skill check by spending a spell slot is quite unrelated. I know a lot of people believe spells make the skill system irrelevant but whether true or not is irrelevant to what Exhaustion should do. Trying to fix the whole martial vs caster for skills via exhaustion seems like a terrible idea.

First, most of the existing ways to gain exhaustion are fairly neutral, being CON based. And casters have ways of avoiding many of those in the first place.

Second, if you remove one of only a few ways that martials have of controlling the battlefield, that's major. Even though casters have many other ways to control things, making the martial control "niche".

Third, you also impact things like climbing (harder-than-default surfaces), swimming (through rough waters), and jumping unusual distances. All of which casters have ways of just avoiding entirely.

It's less "trying to fix" than "not making it worse". Basically, there's a long list of things that hit martials worse than casters or that casters can trivially avoid. I think that any revamp of such mechanics should at least not add new ways that life is unfair for martials. And I'd love to see a new list of things that screw over casters but leave martials untouched. But the whining would be epic.

[Sorinth]

First, most of the existing ways to gain exhaustion are fairly neutral, being CON based. And casters have ways of avoiding many of those in the first place.

Second, if you remove one of only a few ways that martials have of controlling the battlefield, that's major. Even though casters have many other ways to control things, making the martial control "niche".

Third, you also impact things like climbing (harder-than-default surfaces), swimming (through rough waters), and jumping unusual distances. All of which casters have ways of just avoiding entirely.

It's less "trying to fix" than "not making it worse". Basically, there's a long list of things that hit martials worse than casters or that casters can trivially avoid. I think that any revamp of such mechanics should at least not add new ways that life is unfair for martials. And I'd love to see a new list of things that screw over casters but leave martials untouched. But the whining would be epic.

Con saves aren't neutral, Barbarians and Fighters start with proficiency in them. And how is any of this making it worse, without any changes level 1 exhaustion already punishes all that, saying it removes it is a big stretch. It would seem nonsensical to not have exhaustion impact physical activities like climbing, swimming, but why not post your version, who cares if the whining would be epic.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Con saves aren't neutral, Barbarians and Fighters start with proficiency in them. And how is any of this making it worse, without any changes level 1 exhaustion already punishes all that, saying it removes it is a big stretch. It would seem nonsensical to not have exhaustion impact physical activities like climbing, swimming, but why not post your version, who cares if the whining would be epic.

I wasn't saying not impact physical activities, but that it should also impact spellcasting directly.

So take what you said, and then add "and Concentration checks" to the end.

[Sorinth]

I wasn't saying not impact physical activities, but that it should also impact spellcasting directly.

So take what you said, and then add "and Concentration checks" to the end.

I have no issues with handing out disadvantage on concentration at level 1 exhaustion, just a note though it's a saving throw not an ability check. And speaking of saves, I think there's an argument for having Strength saves also at level 1 since many of those are just athletics checks in disguise.

Similarly I think there's an argument for doing something about casting at the same time as disadvantage with attack rolls. Possibly reducing the max spell slot you can cast with, and eventually reducing a caster to cantrips only sometime before they have 0 speed and/or die.

[Greywander]

Since reworking the exhaustion table seems to be popular what are peoples suggestions?
One simple thought I had for a rework, perhaps too simple, is that each stage of exhaustion adds a -2 penalty to all ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and save DCs, as well as a -5 feet of movement speed penalty. I do think this is too simple, and that giving each stage a unique effect could be more interesting. But it might be a good place to start.

Alternatively, you could just reduce ability scores while exhausted. That would propagate further penalties outward, reducing things like HP and spells prepared, in addition to affecting rolls.

Something that might make an interesting counterpoint to exhaustion is an Adrenaline mechanic. Using Adrenaline would suppress the effects of exhaustion for 1 minute, and you'd get all uses of Adrenaline back on a long rest. Everybody would get one use of Adrenaline, but martials might get extra, say, at 5th and 11th levels. This would make exhaustion a bit less debilitating, particularly for combat.

[Osuniev]

One simple thought I had for a rework, perhaps too simple, is that each stage of exhaustion adds a -2 penalty to all ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and save DCs, as well as a -5 feet of movement speed penalty. I do think this is too simple, and that giving each stage a unique effect could be more interesting. But it might be a good place to start.

Alternatively, you could just reduce ability scores while exhausted. That would propagate further penalties outward, reducing things like HP and spells prepared, in addition to affecting rolls.

Something that might make an interesting counterpoint to exhaustion is an Adrenaline mechanic. Using Adrenaline would suppress the effects of exhaustion for 1 minute, and you'd get all uses of Adrenaline back on a long rest. Everybody would get one use of Adrenaline, but martials might get extra, say, at 5th and 11th levels. This would make exhaustion a bit less debilitating, particularly for combat.

What if yould spend a Hit Die to get an adrenaline rush, and the result of the roll is the number of rounds you are *unexhausted* ? This way Martials WOULD benefit from their higher hit die a bit more.

[Snowbluff]

That hasnt been my experience. Disadvantage is not that overwhelming a penalty.

I played in an epic where everyone lost a hand to disadvantage. It was a stiff check before the random, event wide exhaustion...

[KorvinStarmast]

Casters already have a "i need a long rest or none of my class features will work" mechanic built into them, and i'd wager it shows up far more often than martials get to serious levels of exhaustion. Cantrips never stop working. :smallsmile:

For some reason, spellcasters in 5e were designed to be the opposite of the "squishy wizard" trope. After all, you have more of an incentive to buy up Constitution on a Wizard than you do with, say, a Fighter. I'd personally put some kind of spell failure chance at 2+ exhaustion. Maybe do it like the Slow spell: need to make a DC (something) con save or spell doesn't go off, or it is deferred to the next round? This is half of an idea, spitballing here.

[good post} {snip all until} the difficulty in recovering levels is too challenging (excepting when the DM just lets players Long Rest whenever they like, which is a state of affairs which causes problems with all sorts of 5e mechanics) to give the players any levers to work with except 'try never to interact with this system if at all possible' --so this alternate system should try to do things differently. I've had good reception with the bits I posted up there^ but the malus to spell casting could use some more thought. Reduced speed.

(say "you have disadvantage on Concentration checks") and we might be in the ballpark. Also worth fiddling with.

I know that personally, my mind gets exhausted when I'm low on sleep way before my body does. Brain fog is a real thing. When I was in SERE school, my body felt the impact of exhaustion well before my brain did until we got into the deliberate sleep deprivation bit. That's when I started making mental errors.

[Joe the Rat]

What if yould spend a Hit Die to get an adrenaline rush, and the result of the roll is the number of rounds you are *unexhausted* ? This way Martials WOULD benefit from their higher hit die a bit more.I like the idea on paper, but I'm not sure how much of a difference will be seen - most fights will be over within a round or two of your CON modifier. Unless you are pushing through multiple levels - two "hit points" per round of lvl2 exhaustion ignored, etc.

While it hasn't come up yet (and I should probably formalize this to see if anyone bites), I've had "Rage ignores Exhaustion" on my potential houserule list for a while - either in general, or berserker-specific.

[Osuniev]

I like the idea on paper, but I'm not sure how much of a difference will be seen - most fights will be over within a round or two of your CON modifier. Unless you are pushing through multiple levels - two "hit points" per round of lvl2 exhaustion ignored, etc.

While it hasn't come up yet (and I should probably formalize this to see if anyone bites), I've had "Rage ignores Exhaustion" on my potential houserule list for a while - either in general, or berserker-specific.

The idea would be to also make it matter outside of combat. Ignore your exhaustion for 1 minute to focus on your Investigation of the room would require a total (HD+CON) of 10, etc...

Probably too complicated for a House Rule.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think there's a lot of interesting things that could be done by leaning on exhaustion as a limiter.

I added an in-game mechanic that I called Adrenaline Surge that kinda did this.

Basically, take a really important fight, stop it halfway through when some kind of dramatic effect happens, and each character gets offered an Adrenaline Surge.

An Adrenaline Surge is simply all of the benefits of a Short Rest at the cost of Exhaustion. Fits into almost any class or playstyle, helps balance bigger encounters by adding a mechanical break between them, and it repurposes Short Rest classes into being excellent playmakers in your really important fights. Plus, all of the classes that would be hurt the most from low levels of Exhaustion (Rogues, Rangers) have the fewest reasons to take a Short Rest (and so can sidestep the penalty by choosing not to take it).

Solves a lot of problems, general purpose, and doesn't add any extra work on the DM. It's worked out pretty well for my party.