Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 11:47 PM
Since the other thread got unfairly locked for those of us who were not "meta-flaming" as the mods said, I think Jack Smith had some good points there. This thread is to continue the discussion. (Without the flames this time please.)
Individual tasks are also not a good measure - D&D is not (normally) a solo game.
How about this:
You set up a long series of challenges (of varying types - several combat encounters, a few maze encounters, some trap encounters, and so forth) - all level appropriate. The class to be measured is a fifth member to the Iconic Four (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue).
The Iconic Four are standard, DMG NPC's for those classes. Exception: Wizard gets to have all spells he could potentially cast in his spellbook from the PHB, but otherwise he gets no equipment beyond spell components, focuses, and spell components pouches (and no, you can't commandeer them) that are only good for him casting his spells. Both Cleric and Wizard prepare the spells they're told to prepare, and cast them when they're told to cast them (and in the way they are told to cast them). The Wizard favors blasting, and will prepare direct-damage Evocations in any spell slot in which he's not told to prepare something specific. Likewise, the Cleric prepares his most effective base healing spell for that level in any spell slot that isn't specified. The Cleric has the Healing domain, and one other of the choice of the class to be tested, although the second domain must be one listed in the Player's Handbook.
The class to be measured is built with the three core rulebooks, and one additional Wizards of the Coast 3.5 of source of choice (classes that do not come out of the Core rulebooks are required to take the source they come from as their one non-core source, for instance, if the class to be measured is the Psion, the one non-core source must be the Expanded Psionics Handbook). The class to be measured must be pure-classed (so if we're measuring a Psion at 15th, it's a Psion-15, not a Psion-10/Metamind-5 or some such; no PrC's, no multiclassing, and so on). Standard Wealth-By-Level, one-use items cost five times normal (other than the Tomes, Manuals, and similar items which are used once and affect the user forever) but are refreshed between challenges.
The challenges cannot be simply bypassed, but can be taken in any order; however, if the challenge is to get past something, then teleportation or stealth works for that challenge unless it is removed from the equation by some means as declared in the challenge (e.g., one of the challenges might be to get past the guard at the gate to a castle. This can be done with Teleportation if the testing level is high enough, stealth, killing the guard, Charming the guard and beating his Charisma check, Dominating the guard, or whatever, unless something preventing such a strategy is written into the challenge - so you can't get by the guard with Teleportation if the area is under a Forbiddance effect (unless you have the SR to beat the Forbiddance), can't get by with stealth if the guard has True Seeing in an area with no cover or concealment (unless you can manufacture Cover or Concealment fit to not be ignored by True Sight), can't Charm the guard if he's got Mind Blank up (unless you can dispel the Mind Blank), and so on). However, killing or destroying a target can be the nature of the challenge, and in such a case, the target must be killed or destroyed for the challenge to succeed.
The class to be tested can declare "next day" between any two challenges at any time, or during a challenge if the nature of a challenge would permit it- however, the strength of the tested class is measured by the time it takes to cover all challenges. Death takes 1 day to undo, and the challenge is reset when this happens. A shorter time makes for a better score.
Testing is to be done at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th (with a different set of challenges for each level, all challenges appropriate to the level to be tested - so no making "Killing the Terrasque in a 100x100 no-cover arena, with a 30 foot ceiling" a challenge for level 1, for instance).
All challenges must be defeatable by the Iconic Four acting without the member to be measured, and without resorting to "cheese" - "cheese", in this instance, being defined by a tactic, spell, or method called "cheese" by three more forum members than contradict that claim. Likewise, the class to be measured cannot use "cheese" by the same definition.
Assuming, for the moment, that the challenges aren't too terribly slanted to a particular class, and are reasonable ones that might come up in a game, and that the DM is reasonable, would this be a fair test for the relative "strength" of classes?
I think this would be a fantastic way to judge classes, except the challenges should be slightly more difficult for the iconic four's CR. They do have a highly optimized 5th wheel with them after all.
Individual tasks are also not a good measure - D&D is not (normally) a solo game.
How about this:
You set up a long series of challenges (of varying types - several combat encounters, a few maze encounters, some trap encounters, and so forth) - all level appropriate. The class to be measured is a fifth member to the Iconic Four (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue).
The Iconic Four are standard, DMG NPC's for those classes. Exception: Wizard gets to have all spells he could potentially cast in his spellbook from the PHB, but otherwise he gets no equipment beyond spell components, focuses, and spell components pouches (and no, you can't commandeer them) that are only good for him casting his spells. Both Cleric and Wizard prepare the spells they're told to prepare, and cast them when they're told to cast them (and in the way they are told to cast them). The Wizard favors blasting, and will prepare direct-damage Evocations in any spell slot in which he's not told to prepare something specific. Likewise, the Cleric prepares his most effective base healing spell for that level in any spell slot that isn't specified. The Cleric has the Healing domain, and one other of the choice of the class to be tested, although the second domain must be one listed in the Player's Handbook.
The class to be measured is built with the three core rulebooks, and one additional Wizards of the Coast 3.5 of source of choice (classes that do not come out of the Core rulebooks are required to take the source they come from as their one non-core source, for instance, if the class to be measured is the Psion, the one non-core source must be the Expanded Psionics Handbook). The class to be measured must be pure-classed (so if we're measuring a Psion at 15th, it's a Psion-15, not a Psion-10/Metamind-5 or some such; no PrC's, no multiclassing, and so on). Standard Wealth-By-Level, one-use items cost five times normal (other than the Tomes, Manuals, and similar items which are used once and affect the user forever) but are refreshed between challenges.
The challenges cannot be simply bypassed, but can be taken in any order; however, if the challenge is to get past something, then teleportation or stealth works for that challenge unless it is removed from the equation by some means as declared in the challenge (e.g., one of the challenges might be to get past the guard at the gate to a castle. This can be done with Teleportation if the testing level is high enough, stealth, killing the guard, Charming the guard and beating his Charisma check, Dominating the guard, or whatever, unless something preventing such a strategy is written into the challenge - so you can't get by the guard with Teleportation if the area is under a Forbiddance effect (unless you have the SR to beat the Forbiddance), can't get by with stealth if the guard has True Seeing in an area with no cover or concealment (unless you can manufacture Cover or Concealment fit to not be ignored by True Sight), can't Charm the guard if he's got Mind Blank up (unless you can dispel the Mind Blank), and so on). However, killing or destroying a target can be the nature of the challenge, and in such a case, the target must be killed or destroyed for the challenge to succeed.
The class to be tested can declare "next day" between any two challenges at any time, or during a challenge if the nature of a challenge would permit it- however, the strength of the tested class is measured by the time it takes to cover all challenges. Death takes 1 day to undo, and the challenge is reset when this happens. A shorter time makes for a better score.
Testing is to be done at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th (with a different set of challenges for each level, all challenges appropriate to the level to be tested - so no making "Killing the Terrasque in a 100x100 no-cover arena, with a 30 foot ceiling" a challenge for level 1, for instance).
All challenges must be defeatable by the Iconic Four acting without the member to be measured, and without resorting to "cheese" - "cheese", in this instance, being defined by a tactic, spell, or method called "cheese" by three more forum members than contradict that claim. Likewise, the class to be measured cannot use "cheese" by the same definition.
Assuming, for the moment, that the challenges aren't too terribly slanted to a particular class, and are reasonable ones that might come up in a game, and that the DM is reasonable, would this be a fair test for the relative "strength" of classes?
I think this would be a fantastic way to judge classes, except the challenges should be slightly more difficult for the iconic four's CR. They do have a highly optimized 5th wheel with them after all.