Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings (2021)

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok. Today I'm going to review Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings in my own words without copying our work.

Early this morning I saw Shang-Chi with my friends in IMAX. This movie is about a martial artist who wants to fight an evil organization known as the Ten Rings. What I love about this movie is it has so much action and comedy as well. Plus Abomination made his cinematic debut in this movie. There wasn't anything that I disliked about this movie. It was an action-pack movie and
I enjoy it. I'll give this movie 10 out of 10 stars. :smile:

[Razade]

Abomination was in the Norton Hulk movie and that is canon in the MCU. Tim Roth has had the role throughout and he's going to be in She-Hulk.

[Bartmanhomer]

Abomination was in the Norton Hulk movie and that is canon in the MCU. Tim Roth has had the role throughout and he's going to be in She-Hulk.

Oh really? I didn't know that. :smile:

[DaOldeWolf]

Ok. Today I'm going to review Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings in my own words without copying our work.

Early this morning I saw Shang-Chi with my friends in IMAX. This movie is about a martial artist who wants to fight an evil organization known as the Ten Rings. What I love about this movie is it has so much action and comedy as well. Plus Abomination made his cinematic debut in this movie. There wasn't anything that I disliked about this movie. It was an action-pack movie and
I enjoy it. I'll give this movie 10 out of 10 stars. :smile:

Really?! That good. I´ll check it out on Disney+ when it finally drops.

[Mordar]

Really?! That good. I´ll check it out on Disney+ when it finally drops.

I thought it was solid - Simu Liu is good, action sequences are good, Tony Leung was very good. Awkwafina played, of course, Awkwafina and was give too much to do in the movie. One other odd/detrimental casting choice, IMO, and the usual variable power level mooks problem, but all in all, fun and enjoyable.

Will have to consider more, but certainly in the top 50% of the MCU films for me.

Both post-credit scenes annoyed me, but the mid was far worse. Ragged looking hologram Bruce Banner asking if the Rings were Chitauri? WTF would a slave race that seems focused on organic-interfaced weapons/vehicles be doing making the Rings? And does Captain Marvel really bring any value to this conversation? I mean if you need a warship destroyed, sure, call her...but I don't see a lot that she can bring to the "what are these mystical rings" conversation. At least she pops out after a few moments. I know we're down RDJ and Chris Evans...but instead of trying to cram other Avengers in, since you already have Wong, go with Dr. Strange...or better yet, just give Shang Chi a stringer for his next (even if unrealized) adventure?

- M

[ecarden]

Okay, I generally really enjoyed it, a few nitpicks below, but my favorite piece only fell into place in the final post-credits scene:

So, the diversion to pick up Shang's sister and her little empire seemed very weak to me, as did Katy's little 'girl power' moment to her for building an illegal underground fighting 'empire' which the 10 Rings disassemble in like 30 seconds at the heart of her power, causing her to instantly flee (only to come back, alone). And after she's captured, her entire 'empire' just vanishes like it never existed.

But, with the final reveal, it became actually incredibly strong. Of course no one in her empire fought the 10 rings, her goal all along was to take them over. Every person lost on either side would be pure loss for her. I may be reading too much into it, but my read was that as soon as she knew they'd gone after Shang she knew they'd come for her. The only person with a chance to get the rings from her father is Shang, who doesn't want to be in charge, so all that needs to happen is...that. Her father wants to pass over the rings (sort of).

Now, she obviously couldn't predict the magical soul eaters and such, but otherwise it worked out. In my view she had less a plan than a goal (take over the 10 rings and preserve her own power base) and succeeded. That worked real well for me and the foreshadowed it very well with stuff like 'if he wouldn't give me a place in his empire, I'd build my own,' while Shang just ran off to be a valet. I really thought that was just going to be dropped like it was nothing when she came back for him, but instead she got exactly what she wanted in the end. In my view, she was by far the strongest character in the movie and I really enjoyed it.

The faux-Mandarin worked well (though they REALLY oversell how dangerous/effective the faux-10 rings were) as a comedy character and the magical creatures were real impressive to me.

Wong was great, though the Abomination knocking himself out in one punch seemed ridiculous. Also, why is Wong in an underground fight club? It sounded like it was training/therapy for the Abomination? I'd really like that to be true, seems fun.

I really liked that Shang actually did go through with his vengeance against the folks who murdered his mother. I wasn't entirely clear on why he ran off afterwards instead of going home, but I liked that he did it and he came clean with Katy rather than it being revealed by someone else.

Speaking of which, the Katy-Shang relationship did work for me. Less romantic than friendship, but it felt pretty lived in. The only bits I actually laughed at involved that relationship.

I really enjoyed the father's death scene and his last act was to save his son. I do wish Shang had pointed out to him the monsters that were coming out of the gate as he punched it. I mean, that's pretty good confirmation that this was bull**** and he was being played, but he never even mentions it.

The mid-credits scene mostly worked for me (though I agree the Chitauri suggestion is silly, though I guess they're working from what samples they've got, which is basically Chitauri and maybe what Tony brought back from Infinity Wars? All of new-Thanos's stuff was dusted) as 'we don't know what this is, but it's new'.


On the other hand:

This was...okay. I don't really like the powerless sidekick in general and I really, really wish they'd resisted the urge to have the person with like a day of training be the one to make the shot on the demon-monster thing (though to be fair, I had to step out to the restroom as she was going to the archery range, so I may have missed her having actual archery skills). She did help ground things, but I'm not real sure the ninjas vs. monks vs. dragon vs. demons wanted to be that grounded.

I don't love the hidden village thing and adding another ancient society (4000 years!) which has somehow remained the size of a village despite people living in it aging at human rates? Seriously? There ought to be basically a major country's worth of people through there, at least. And there's been no technological advancement in that time either? Why do this?

Also, their knowledge of the outside world seemed...unlikely given that it sounds like only one of them ever left and she didn't return? How'd they know what cars were? Or that their ancient cities were so much better than our current cities?

So, I do like it when the universe grows, but it always raises question of...where were these people during the previous events? Now, for the most part, this isn't too bad as the 10 rings are a criminal syndicate. You don't expect them to run around helping the Avengers fight off Chitauri or something. But I really wasn't clear on how powerful they were supposed to be. The first part makes it seem like they're this world-spanning organization with unlimited numbers/power/resources, but then they barely outnumber the village mooks? Maybe it's just that regrowing them has been hard after he shut them down, but that raises the question of HYDRA and them and/or SHIELD and them. Did neither group know about them? If so, everyone's even more incompetent than we thought, if not then a lot of other stuff starts to come apart.

Similarly, it seems weird that he's been running around with these powerful magical artifacts in a VERY obvious way for centuries and the sorcerers just...never noticed? I mean, there's no mention of the rings in the archives...that seems pretty incompetent given how obvious we see him being with them.

I've already complained about Katy getting the shot with the bow, but I really dislike 'this thing destroyed an entire other civilization that has been claimed to be stronger/better than ours, and the best they could do was save our universe by walling it off, but now we can totally destroy it in a battle we were totally unprepared for and with out forces depleted. Also, the power-up it got from souls was way too much. It's in trouble against the dragon, it gets like 10 souls and instantly starts to win. If that's the case, then with the souls of multiple cities, how the hell did the dragon stop it in the first place? That's a broader problem of varying power scene by scene, but that's classic fiction, so I'll stop whining about that in particular.

However, don't even get me started on the band of assassins who we KNOW use guns deciding that the right weapon against a bunch of villagers who they know have kung-fu powers are electronic crossbows that nonlethally incapacitate people and electronic melee weapons that nonlethally incapacitate people.

I mean that almost made sense against the kids as despite everything, their leader doesn't want them dead, but the whole thing about the village is that he wants them all dead and the place burned down, but the machine guns on their vehicles (which we can see) never get fired...

Then, even gimping themselves severely, the mooks who have barely managed to touch our heroes (who ought to be weaker than these monks, right? Given that they're trained in the same fashion as Shang's mom, who tossed his father around fairly easily?) do manage to basically win the fight with the monks, only releasing them to fight the demons?

That whole fight is a mess and by far the weakest part of the movie.

Generally worth the time and the movie ticket, even if you're unlucky enough to spill half your popcorn when you first sit down, as I did.

[Rynjin]

I'll have to wait until I can watch it at home, but I'm glad to hear it's getting good reviews.

[Lizard Lord]

I thought it was solid - Simu Liu is good, action sequences are good, Tony Leung was very good. Awkwafina played, of course, Awkwafina and was give too much to do in the movie. One other odd/detrimental casting choice, IMO, and the usual variable power level mooks problem, but all in all, fun and enjoyable.

Will have to consider more, but certainly in the top 50% of the MCU films for me.

Both post-credit scenes annoyed me, but the mid was far worse. Ragged looking hologram Bruce Banner asking if the Rings were Chitauri? WTF would a slave race that seems focused on organic-interfaced weapons/vehicles be doing making the Rings? And does Captain Marvel really bring any value to this conversation? I mean if you need a warship destroyed, sure, call her...but I don't see a lot that she can bring to the "what are these mystical rings" conversation. At least she pops out after a few moments. I know we're down RDJ and Chris Evans...but instead of trying to cram other Avengers in, since you already have Wong, go with Dr. Strange...or better yet, just give Shang Chi a stringer for his next (even if unrealized) adventure?

- M

Captain Marvel is there because, assuming they can't reach the GotG for whatever reason, she has more experience with alien civilizations then anyone else they would know and there is the possibility that the rings are extraterrestrial.

I actually don't know why Bruce asked if the rings were Chitauri other than him taking a wild guess with the small handful of alien civilizations he knows of; which I think is just Chitauri, Sakaran, and Asgardian (he has seen other aliens, but doesn't really know what they are. I don't think he was there when Thor mentioned what Korg was, but that would also have been a bad guess anyways). Each of which would be a bad guess, but Asgardian would be the best one since they are at least known to have visited Earth in the ancient past. The earliest known Chitauri encounter was the Battle of New York (and the Sakaran culture never visited Earth, though they could have gained immigrants or prisoners with jobs that did). With all that said, it would have made more sense for him to just say extraterrestrial.

I also don't know why he isn't in his Professor Hulk form, but maybe She-Hulk or another future project can explain that.

[Cen]

Really?! That good. I´ll check it out on Disney+ when it finally drops.

I don't want to discredit Bartmanhomer, but he likes every movie he sees.

[Talakeal]

I don't want to discredit Bartmanhomer, but he likes every movie he sees.

It really was good. My roommate said it was the best out of the entire MCU, and while I wouldn’t go that far, it is up there.


The only bad review I have seen was the one on Yahoo news which claimed it was just a bland retread of Black Panther… and I can’t really take that criticism seriously in any good faith way.

[Bartmanhomer]

I don't want to discredit Bartmanhomer, but he likes every movie he sees.

I don't like all the movies. :smile:

[GloatingSwine]

I don't love the hidden village thing and adding another ancient society (4000 years!) which has somehow remained the size of a village despite people living in it aging at human rates? Seriously? There ought to be basically a major country's worth of people through there, at least. And there's been no technological advancement in that time either? Why do this?

Also, their knowledge of the outside world seemed...unlikely given that it sounds like only one of them ever left and she didn't return? How'd they know what cars were? Or that their ancient cities were so much better than our current cities?


Eh, the world's got various uncontacted or very isolated tribes that have probably been around about that long with village sized populations. Minimum population required to guard against genetic drift is only 500 or so.

Plus anyone who's watched Star Trek knows that the first thing you do on becoming an enlightened wise ancient civilisation is revert to a pastoral idyll. Various Enterprises tripped over them every few dozen light years.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't like all the movies. :smile:

You do ovedwhelmingly give positive reviews to almost everything you see. I think I recall one 3 in the past few months (Boss Baby 2?), and the rest or nearly all the rest have been 7 or higher.

[ecarden]

Eh, the world's got various uncontacted or very isolated tribes that have probably been around about that long with village sized populations. Minimum population required to guard against genetic drift is only 500 or so.

Plus anyone who's watched Star Trek knows that the first thing you do on becoming an enlightened wise ancient civilisation is revert to a pastoral idyll. Various Enterprises tripped over them every few dozen light years.

My objection isn't that they remain isolated (indeed, I think their isolation can't be that complete both due to human nature and because there were sufficient clues to lead the Ten Rings to them in the first place) or that they started at a small size.

I couldn't tell if they still had access to the rest of their world (and its cities more magnificent than ours) but they clearly aren't anywhere near the carrying capacity of their region as they're able to support a large group of warriors and artisans despite that group apparently producing nothing of value for multiple millennia! And despite allegedly coming from a superior civilization and then getting an additional advantage in the form of the dragon, they're still right where they were technologically thirty seconds after the Dweller was locked away (based on the art we see as this is explained to us? I mean, medieval stasis is a trope and all, but I really dislike it here and in the 'back to nature'/'magical native' episodes of Star Trek.

I mean, this isn't unique to Shang-Chi, there's plenty of settings where this is common and even elsewhere in the MCU (I think the Asgardians are actually the worst example of this, but at least there it might be argued that they've reached some peak of technology/magic and there's nowhere further to advance. I think that's wrong, but it's not absolutely crazy). Tolkein also isn't great on this and don't get me started on Forgotten Realms and most D&D settings crazy long history with only the occasional ancient magic/tech (that's BETTER than modern stuff) to suggest any real advancement.

But this one is extra weird to me because they're humans and we see their technology level when we arrive, as they're farming off to the side of the shot (unless I'm misremembering) and they clearly do have some form of external contact (given they can communicate with everyone, recognize what a car is and have an external guard and know the path through their external defenses (why even have a path through those defenses if you aren't going to go out and do stuff in the world?)

Not a big deal, but it makes me cranky. The broader trope makes me cranky and the ridiculously long timeline they put on it for no real reason just made it really jump out to me.

[Bartmanhomer]

You do ovedwhelmingly give positive reviews to almost everything you see. I think I recall one 3 in the past few months (Boss Baby 2?), and the rest or nearly all the rest have been 7 or higher.

What can I say? I love good movies. :smile:

[Talakeal]

What can I say? I love good movies. :smile:

And also X-men Dark Phoenix :smallbiggrin:

[Bartmanhomer]

And also X-men Dark Phoenix :smallbiggrin:

Yes, X-Men Dark Phoenix was an amazing movie.

[Ramza00]

So how much choreography and outfits were inspired by anime / manga?

[ecarden]

So how much choreography and outfits were inspired by anime / manga?

I didn't catch much of anything. There's some obvious wuxia influences, but this was clearly more a love letter to Chinese cinema than anything to do with Japan, at least to my eyes, but I'm far from an expert.

[Ramza00]

I didn't catch much of anything. There's some obvious wuxia influences, but this was clearly more a love letter to Chinese cinema than anything to do with Japan, at least to my eyes, but I'm far from an expert.

So I have not watched this movie, even though I am super excited, due to the covid numbers being bad in my area and I live with an immune compromised family member even though our family is vaccinated.

————

But Destin Daniel Cretton, the director, has mentioned some of the scenes were influenced by Dragonball in interviews. Likewise one of Shang Chi jackets is a specific shade of orange 🍊, that Goku is famous for, even if Shang-Chi wears many outfits.

Thus I am curious if anyone in theaters noticed anything I should be aware of? :smallsmile:

[Ranxerox]

[SPOILER=Response]My objection isn't that they remain isolated (indeed, I think their isolation can't be that complete both due to human nature and because there were sufficient clues to lead the Ten Rings to them in the first place) or that they started at a small size.

I couldn't tell if they still had access to the rest of their world (and its cities more magnificent than ours) but they clearly aren't anywhere near the carrying capacity of their region as they're able to support a large group of warriors and artisans despite that group apparently producing nothing of value for multiple millennia! And despite allegedly coming from a superior civilization and then getting an additional advantage in the form of the dragon, they're still right where they were technologically thirty seconds after the Dweller was locked away (based on the art we see as this is explained to us? I mean, medieval stasis is a trope and all, but I really dislike it here and in the 'back to nature'/'magical native' episodes of Star Trek.


There are countless small villages across Asia, Africa and South America where despite having contact with the modern world, the people for the most part live lives not all that different from there ancestors from centuries gone by. Heck, even in the United States, that is pretty much what the Amish do. As for their not being more people, perhaps each generation loses some their young to outward immigration. It could be that not all chose to stay, but they generally respect the village not talk about where they came from.

[Rynjin]

But Destin Daniel Cretton, the director, has mentioned some of the scenes were influenced by Dragonball in interviews. Likewise one of Shang Chi jackets is a specific shade of orange 🍊, that Goku is famous for, even if Shang-Chi wears many outfits.

And Dragonball was inspired by martial arts movies. Like literally Toriyama came up with the idea from watching kung fu movies while in a funk over Dr. Slump being kind of boring for him to write after so long.

Add in some Journey to the West and other Chinese novel inspirations alongside, funnily enough, old Disney movies (apparently he loves 101 Dalmatians) and you have Dragon Ball.

It all comes full circle.

[ecarden]

There are countless small villages across Asia, Africa and South America where despite having contact with the modern world, the people for the most part live lives not all that different from there ancestors from centuries gone by. Heck, even in the United States, that is pretty much what the Amish do. As for their not being more people, perhaps each generation loses some their young to outward immigration. It could be that not all chose to stay, but they generally respect the village not talk about where they came from.

There are countless small villages where life has not changed since the bronze age (which is what 4000 years ago gets us to)? I really don't think that's true. And to the extent it is, they aren't a bunch of people from a 'superior' society whose fall was caused entirely by external invasion. It's not even the bull**** 'we grew decadent and dug into things man was not meant to know, so we must stay primitive and not advance' they were just attacked, right? Am I misremembering? Why wouldn't they want to rebuild what was lost, which they (and their dragon buddy) ought to remember?

Emigration, as I said, is certainly possible, as is some sort of artificial limit on population. But the estimate I found for world population in 2000 BC are 27 million, which grew to 7.78 billion as of the present, that's a lot of growth, even hampered by fairly minimal tech for much of it and no magic. Sort of seems like the village might have grown quite a bit over the same period. Also, even if their population was limited, given that half of it was snapped out, they'd probably have been desperately trying to repopulate, then they'd have come back. There ought to be a lot of little kids running around.

But the more I think about this, the weirder it seems, given that they're theoretically protecting the planet, maybe they should put some time into improving their defenses? They've got a village, a big moat and then the gate itself. They had four thousand years and couldn't maybe throw up a wall? Or remove the outcropping by the gate so there's not a nice landing platform for anyone who wants to open it? Or have some sort of warning system to wake up the dragon that isn't someone randomly getting knocked directly into her underwater lair? I mean, if you can wake her up when Wenwu walks away from the battle, it seems sort of unlikely he makes it to the gate at all (though relative power levels are real hard to tell in this movie). Or for that matter, don't place your village right in the path to the gate, but have only the monastery there to ensure access control and have the plan be to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds to defend the gate, with the dragon?

The big problem here is 4000 years is longer than recorded history (ETA: nope, I was misremembering, recorded history began a bit earlier than this). Every language, every culture, every people you see around you was basically created over that time, or massively changed. But they just...didn't and that makes the world feel fake to me. ETA: Now, to be fair, you could go a different route and say that the art we see when the past is being described has been done in a Ta-Lo modern style, as they don't really know what happened 4000 years ago, because no one does (though they've got an eyewitness in the form of an immortal dragon and prove to be 100% correct in everything they predict). And there's no evidence of grander cities or anything, let alone how the Dweller came to attack them. There's lots of ways a society like this could come into existence and remain at this tech level/size, but most of them require significant outside involvement (which, hey, exists in the form of would-be invaders and the dragon). So, I can come up with a head-canon which explains it, but it doesn't cast the Great Protector in a great light to be honest.

Also, I really assume you can't just fly over the moving forest and get into Ta-Lo by landing in the permanent clearing and going through the waterfall? Given the Dweller and its minions all fly, I assume that doesn't work. But again, if the goal is defense, why even have a way in and out?

Alternatively, as they recognize a car and must have some outside contact, a few guns and dragon-scale bullets would be pretty effective. Given what we saw one arrow do to the Dweller, a bit of modernization and they don't need the 10 rings to kill him. Just shoot him. A lot.

[Wintermoot]

*reads forum so far*

well time for a voice of dissension I guess.

I didn't particularly care for this movie. I didn't HATE it, like I did Iron Man 2 or Avengers 1 or 2, but I found it be be aggressively mediocre. Nothing new or interesting came out of it for me and except for a few portions, it felt kind of sloppily put together.

I thought the lead was okay. didn't seem to have a lot of range, kind of felt sleepy in his performance, but I didn't find him offensive. I thought his sister was about the same. Although she did more for moving the plot and had a more tragic story so I'd almost make her a co-main if I'd been making this movie. I don't know who Awkwafina is, I don't know if she's a singer or a comedian or what, but I didn't really care for her. I'd put her pretty far down the stable of sidekicks. But, hey, at least now we know why Hawkeye is so good. In the MCU it only takes two days of casual practice to become an expert archer. So there's that.

I really liked the bus fight in act one. This is the kind of action I -want- more of in my superhero movies. The hero versus a named villain with an interesting power and a small number of thugs. I loved how we got to SEE the choreography, see how each punch and kick flowed from one to the next. How each had consequence. How they used the setpeice as part of the action, from razorfist accidently cutting the brakecord, to Shang Chi using him to cut the bus in half, to using the stop request cord as a signal, to using his martial arts to keep people from falling off the bus, to seeing the HERO striving to save the civilians. I mean, that was a GREAT superhero set piece. One of the best of the MCU to date IMO. It showed a true economy of action and an understanding of what makes superhero action different than normal action.

Contrast that to act three. I'm sick and tired of superhero movies turning into Lord of the Rings. I don't want to see any more nameless good guy army vs nameless bad guy army fights. We got that in Wakanda. We got that in Infinity War and Endgame. We've had plenty thanks. The moment they showed up in Tae Lo and we saw all the red-robed mooks with their dragonscale staves (indestinquishable from Vibranium weapons or the Electro-charged weapons of the Ten Ring mooks as far as power goes) I just groaned because we know where that's going.

I think it's silly they movie is called "Legend of the Ten Rings" which the Ten Rings don't actually get delved into. it's really the Legend of Tae Lo and the Soul Eater Gate and the creature who lives beyond right? It was all about the legend of Shang Chi's mother. The Ten Rings were just random unknown artifacts unrelated to the rest of the narrative and they didn't go into where they came from or what they were or how they were important beyond that the evil endboss happened to think "hey, those might be strong enough to cave in this door. thank God this immortal warlord just HAPPENED to stumble from his story into this other unrelated story"

Beyond that, their power is so undefined I have no connection to it. So really you can shot them off really fast at things right? And they have some sort of tractor field connecting them together so you can use them like whips I guess. And if you shoot them at the ground you can launch yourself into the sky and use them to slow down again... and they make you immortal? So do you heal fast or just don't age? I don't know. I'm really hoping they get a better explanation in the follow up movie and aren't just a replacement for the Infinity stones in the next phase of the MCU.

Next question: Why is Wong pit fighting in Macau? Why is he work-release counselling the Abomination? Why is the Abomination regressed mentally from where he was in Incredible Hulk? Why is Wong consulting on the Rings instead of Strange? I'm very interested in all of this and really hope it goes somewhere and isn't as random as it seems.

I didn't particualry find Tae Lo appealing. The various chinese inspired creatures were CGIed pretty poorly and looked super fake. they didn't blend in at all and so it really destroyed my ability to get invested. The explanation of "oh this is just a tiny village, we have huge cities just kind of over there... you know... who won't be involved in this fight" actually made me mad it was so pointlessly stupid.

I -did- enjoy Ben Kingsley coming back. Didn't expect it, caught me by surprise. He obviously loves playing Trevor. But once he was rendered into a translator for what the tribble butt-with-wings was saying it kind of got old. Although the one-off shot during the obligatory training/preparing for invasion montage of him teaching kids how to play football was hilarious.

Once again, the whole impact of the snap/blip was reduced to a few posters on walls and nothing else. Apparently the during blip and post blip economy was strong enough that Shang Chi and Katy could stay employed as Parking Valets through the whole period. That makes sense.

I knew that would happen after they reduced it to a joke in Spider-Man: Far from Home, but it's still sad. At least the Disney+ series are putting SOME thought into the impact it would have on future world building.

I don't know. Perhaps my hopes were too high. I know I went in with really high expectations (versus the upcoming Eternals where my expectations are rock-bottom) so I probably am being overly harsh. But yeah. For me this is near the bottom of the broad middle of the MCU.

Lastly, let's talk about the end-boss. The nameless thing from beyond the gate. What a lame random tentacle monster. Seriously, all that build up for what? another random Kaiju with zero personality and no more powerset than flying around running into things. Seriously, the least impactful movie monster. If my superhero is a martial arts master, I would like his end boss to be someone he can fight with his martial arts skills, not reduced to flying on the back of a magic dragon as the magic dragon fights the big bad. Also, its hard to take this creature seriously as a world-destroying threat when he gets ripped apart by some alien rings in his tummy. Not sure why anyone was afraid of it in the first place. Hawkeye could've destroyed it. It was less impactful and menacing than the Chitauri space worms.

[Iruka]

I don't want to discredit Bartmanhomer, but he likes every movie he sees.

Seems to me like he spends his cinema budget wisely. :smallwink:

[GentlemanVoodoo]

*reads forum so far*

well time for a voice of dissension I guess.



Many of the points you raise is the same I have with this movie.

[Azuresun]

Overall, I liked it, but it's a firm "good not great" for me. I liked the characters a lot, and the comic relief characters weren't overused, and good work in that area can carry nearly anything unless the plot is Black Widow levels of incoherent. I agree that the bus fight was a standout--I always love it when superhero movies remember that the distinctive feature of a superhero is that they save people.

With that said, I think that my one real gripe is that it felt it was REALLY struggling with the rating it got--
-notably two pivotal deaths happening off-camera. Something like Shang-Chi killing his mother's murderer was a pivotal character moment that should definitely have happened on screen rather than in exposition.

[Mordar]

With that said, I think that my one real gripe is that it felt it was REALLY struggling with the rating it got--
-notably two pivotal deaths happening off-camera. Something like Shang-Chi killing his mother's murderer was a pivotal character moment that should definitely have happened on screen rather than in exposition.

Have to disagree. Acceptable in the two-part format, I think. How else could he lie to Katy about it? Show the truth and hear the lie? Good for some films, but would probably confuse a lot of viewers in this one. A second flashback? We've already seen his skills in two major fights by the time he admits it, so an action scene from when he was 14 (?) probably just regresses.

- M

[Cen]

Hmm so basically the plot of this movie is that superpowered martial artist has to go back to magicla kingdom he came from and despite being said as being top martial artist trianed from childhood to be this undefeatable warrior he is outperformed and humiliated on every step... I have Iron Fist flashbacks...

And his sister said she trained HERSELF while he was on trainning bordering with torture... and she is better then him? I smell ****e

Aquafina... that's a weird name wasn't she this dolphin rapper in BoJack? got superduper good with bow and arrow after one day of training... beacause of course she did.

I miss times where male lead was allowed to be good at something without being humiliated by 'a brave strong and powerful female'.

Overall this movie was wonderfully medicore. Not good, not terrible.

[Catullus64]

I liked the movie and don't have much to say about it, apart from one petty fanboy gripe:

Was anyone disappointed that what appeared from the trailers to be Fin Fang Foom just turned out to be the far less interesting Abomination?

[ecarden]

And his sister said she trained HERSELF while he was on trainning bordering with torture... and she is better then him? I smell ****e.

This seems like an unfair reading. They fight exactly once, in a fight she's clearly prepared for and he's in shock to be fighting his sister and is unwilling to actually fight. I don't think we have any idea who would win a fight if they went all out. That's clearly being set up, given the ending, so we'll see and I'll be shocked if she wins (ETA) due to anything but surprise. Also, we're seeing her after an addition six years of self-training (via rather direct copying of the training Shang-Chi and other members of the 10 Rings were doing) and four years out in the world fighting folks.

Now, there's certainly a question of, she went out into the world of the Snap and set up an underground fight club? That was really what was needed and profitable? But the MCU is doubling down real hard on the notion that things weren't that different during the Snap (everywhere but in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, at least). Hence how Hawkeye could be running around butchering criminals instead of (both him and the criminals) struggling to survive.


Aquafina... that's a weird name wasn't she this dolphin rapper in BoJack? got superduper good with bow and arrow after one day of training... beacause of course she did.

I'd assumed the Awkwafina played Aquafina, but apparently not? And the BoJack wiki claims that that character is based on Christina Aguilera? That is a weird coincidence, if it is a coincidence.

I objected to Katy taking the shot above, but to be fair to the show, there's no indication that this is an incredibly hard shot or anything, just that it has to be made and the other archers are a bit busy dying. Now, I missed the archery training section (bathroom break) so I don't know how that went and can't comment.


I miss times where male lead was allowed to be good at something without being humiliated by 'a brave strong and powerful female'.

This seems incredibly unfair given how good at combat we're shown Shang-Chi is. You'll notice his sister never even tries to fight their father, or figures out the magical monk power-up, or does much of anything in Ta-Lo besides fight a losing battle against the 10 Rings, then fight a losing battle against the monsters, then need to be rescued along with everyone else by Shang-Chi.

The closest Shang-Chi comes to humiliation comes at the hands of his father and even that isn't really humiliation because he keeps on coming back for another fight.

[Wintermoot]

Hmm so basically the plot of this movie is that superpowered martial artist has to go back to magicla kingdom he came from and despite being said as being top martial artist trianed from childhood to be this undefeatable warrior he is outperformed and humiliated on every step... I have Iron Fist flashbacks...

And his sister said she trained HERSELF while he was on trainning bordering with torture... and she is better then him? I smell ****e



That's one reading of the story. Here's another that skews closer to the actual narrative of the movie.

Shang-Chi was FORCED to learn martial arts while being tortured for seven years from 7 to 14. It's not something he actively sought out. Something he had begrudgingly forced upon him. I would expect someone enthused to learn martial arts who put effort into learning it to be a better student than someone being forced to do it.

Add to that that, by all appearances, Shang Chi STOPPED training at 14 years old and spent 10 years drinking, working minimum wage jobs, slacking off and trying hard to lose everything he had learned whereas his Sister spent those same 10 years honing her craft, continuing her training and participating in non-practice cage fights in order to get stronger and better.

Yeah, I wonder why she might be better than him. If anything the movie UNDERSOLD how much better she should be than him.



Aquafina... that's a weird name wasn't she this dolphin rapper in BoJack? got superduper good with bow and arrow after one day of training... beacause of course she did.


As I stated, I don't even know who she is, but her name is spelled Awkwafina, not like the bottled water. I have never seen BoJack Horseman either. And, yeah, the getting real good at archery in one montage scene was annoying and silly.



I miss times where male lead was allowed to be good at something without being humiliated by 'a brave strong and powerful female'.


aaaand now I'm done interacting with you.

[ecarden]

That's one reading of the story. Here's another that skews closer to the actual narrative of the movie.

Shang-Chi was FORCED to learn martial arts while being tortured for seven years from 7 to 14. It's not something he actively sought out. Something he had begrudgingly forced upon him. I would expect someone enthused to learn martial arts who put effort into learning it to be a better student than someone being forced to do it.

Add to that that, by all appearances, Shang Chi STOPPED training at 14 years old and spent 10 years drinking, working minimum wage jobs, slacking off and trying hard to lose everything he had learned whereas his Sister spent those same 10 years honing her craft, continuing her training and participating in non-practice cage fights in order to get stronger and better.

Yeah, I wonder why she might be better than him. If anything the movie UNDERSOLD how much better she should be than him.

That's a possible read, but we do actually see that Shang-Chi is at a minimum maintaining physical condition. We don't see him training, but we do see him exercising. More crucially, I really don't think the cage fight tells us anything about their respective skills, as Shang-Chi is (if I'm remembering) explicitly not trying to fight her.

[Cen]

aaaand now I'm done interacting with you.

that's of course one way to ave a conversation, still I don't know what ave I done that offended you?

[Mordar]

I liked the movie and don't have much to say about it, apart from one petty fanboy gripe:

Was anyone disappointed that what appeared from the trailers to be Fin Fang Foom just turned out to be the far less interesting Abomination?

I didn't hear anyone suggesting that - in fact, though from early on the identity was known. I can see the disappointment retrospectively though!


That's a possible read, but we do actually see that Shang-Chi is at a minimum maintaining physical condition. We don't see him training, but we do see him exercising. More crucially, I really don't think the cage fight tells us anything about their respective skills, as Shang-Chi is (if I'm remembering) explicitly not trying to fight her.

Exactly. If Shang-Chi isn't fighting back and just standing there, I'm pretty sure I can take him...or at least knock him down before I get too tired.

- M

[Cen]

This seems like an unfair reading. They fight exactly once, in a fight she's clearly prepared for and he's in shock to be fighting his sister and is unwilling to actually fight. I don't think we have any idea who would win a fight if they went all out. That's clearly being set up, given the ending, so we'll see and I'll be shocked if she wins (ETA) due to anything but surprise. Also, we're seeing her after an addition six years of self-training (via rather direct copying of the training Shang-Chi and other members of the 10 Rings were doing) and four years out in the world fighting folks.

Hmm. Yeah, pretty good points. Yeah, I might have misinterpret some things.



The closest Shang-Chi comes to humiliation comes at the hands of his father and even that isn't really humiliation because he keeps on coming back for another fight.

Oh come on, the kick in the balls from his sister was 100% unnecessary.

And yes, Awkwafina and Aquafina are absolutely not related, and pure coincidence. On my defense - I never saw their names in writing, only heard in talk.

[Peelee]

I miss times where male lead was allowed to be good at something without being humiliated by 'a brave strong and powerful female'.
You miss present day? What a strange sentiment.

[Psyren]

Saw it, loved it!

Yes, please put Carol and Wong in more things.

I wonder what signal the rings were sending, and to who/where? Or where they came from for that matter.

New #girlboss Mandarin, awesome. Now that the 10 Rings are an equal opportunity employer and she shows no signs of stopping the, well, crimes, I think it's a safe bet that this is the final nail in the coffins of both The Hand and Iron Fist.


Yes, X-Men Dark Phoenix was an amazing movie.

Not helping your case :smalleek:


I liked the movie and don't have much to say about it, apart from one petty fanboy gripe:

Was anyone disappointed that what appeared from the trailers to be Fin Fang Foom just turned out to be the far less interesting Abomination?

Uh, no? That was very clearly Abomination, he's always had fins and stuff.

https://hulkcollection.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/ccf01032013_0018.jpg


You miss present day? What a strange sentiment.

Ha! :smallamused:

[Bartmanhomer]

Not helping your case :smalleek:




What case? :confused:

[Psyren]

I don't want to discredit Bartmanhomer, but he likes every movie he sees.


I don't like all the movies. :smile:


You do overwhelmingly give positive reviews to almost everything you see. I think I recall one 3 in the past few months (Boss Baby 2?), and the rest or nearly all the rest have been 7 or higher.


What can I say? I love good movies. :smile:


And also X-men Dark Phoenix :smallbiggrin:


Yes, X-Men Dark Phoenix was an amazing movie.

^ That one :smalltongue:

[Bartmanhomer]

^ That one :smalltongue:

Well, I like Dark Phoenix. It was an incredible movie in my opinion anyway.

[Azuresun]

Have to disagree. Acceptable in the two-part format, I think. How else could he lie to Katy about it? Show the truth and hear the lie? Good for some films, but would probably confuse a lot of viewers in this one. A second flashback? We've already seen his skills in two major fights by the time he admits it, so an action scene from when he was 14 (?) probably just regresses.

- M

Well, there could have been two flashbacks, one with the lie and one with the truth. Or just the second one.

It just felt unsatisfying to have such a pivotal moment, where the hero's life changes and he rebels against his own family, to be entirely off camera. It's kind of like Black Panther if we never see Klaw or Killmonger die, just someone else saying "Trust me on this." :smalltongue:

Though you do remind me of something I do like, which is

the movie doesn't do the obvious "You LIED to me, I can never trust you again!" subplot with him and Katie. She largely accepts that yeah, she can understand why he'd keep a past like that to himself and that she probably wouldn't have believed him if he had told her. And I also appreciated that they DON'T hook up at the end and just stay friends.

[Imbalance]

Satisfactory, I'd say.


I liked the movie and don't have much to say about it, apart from one petty fanboy gripe:

Was anyone disappointed that what appeared from the trailers to be Fin Fang Foom just turned out to be the far less interesting Abomination?

I'm not sure how you saw Abomination in a cage fight and thought it was Foom, but there is the image with the dragon's face in the water that came out prior (I don't watch trailers, so Idk when or how it was shown, just that I saw it a while ago) that I took to be Foom, and thus share in your disappointment. Sadly, I've been miffed by the lack of both the dragon and a real Mandarin ever since Iron Man. What's even more annoying is that many have said that the soul-stealer kaiju is supposed to have been Foom, ugh. As they were spinning the legend within the film, I started to expect Annihilus, but that wasn't even close (closer than Foom, though). So, I can admit when my comics knowledge is lacking, but I have zero context for what these monsters were supposed to be.


Shang-chi's assassination target was Katie's grandfather.

The rings are Celestial tech, setting up connections with the Eternals. Somehow they'll all have to be returned to their power plant to be the ultimate maguffin.

Part of me still really wants Trevor to be the character that is the Mandarin, even if they don't use that name.

Some people seem to have missed that those other ancient cities in the secret world were wiped out by the soul-stealer, and that they pretty much only exist by the grace of their Great Protector. They're sole purpose is to protect the gate from outside influences - they have no power to stop the big bad. That the big bad has this telepathic link to the rings-bearer needed a bit more fleshing out, because it seems like if this was a fact that was understood as possible, methinks someone ought to have gone into the world and collected those rings, OR maybe they should have left the guy wielding them come join them and disarm him with the power of love (as did happen) so they could have prevented anyone using them on the gate. I dunno. But the voice-in-your-head thing bothered me.

Wong's lack of knowledge about the rings also bothered me as much as the rings not having individual powers, which isn't actually that much of a bother considering the other accepted changes that the MCU has wrought.
It just does feel clumsy that an ancient warlord managed to conquer so much territory under various names but his organization was always called the same thing with the same thug tattoos. Seems like maybe somebody would have made a connection somewhere. I guess if he always knew where his kids were, the rings may be giving him some sort of unseen powers over information? Stretching.

Waiting now for the next open world video game that hides an entire village behind a waterfall.

[ecarden]

Shang-chi's assassination target was Katie's grandfather.

I really hope this isn't true, especially after how badly they flubbed a very similar storyline in Falcon and Winter Soldier. Also, it just makes the world feel smaller.




Some people seem to have missed that those other ancient cities in the secret world were wiped out by the soul-stealer, and that they pretty much only exist by the grace of their Great Protector. They're sole purpose is to protect the gate from outside influences - they have no power to stop the big bad.

Not sure if this is addressed to me, but I was the one complaining about this the most. To be clear, I'm aware that the other cities were destroyed. My objection is that they haven't rebuilt or expanded at all since the bronze age. They would be more effective protectors if they could muster more than maybe 50 warriors.



That the big bad has this telepathic link to the rings-bearer needed a bit more fleshing out, because it seems like if this was a fact that was understood as possible, methinks someone ought to have gone into the world and collected those rings, OR maybe they should have left the guy wielding them come join them and disarm him with the power of love (as did happen) so they could have prevented anyone using them on the gate. I dunno. But the voice-in-your-head thing bothered me.

From what they were saying, I think the Dweller could telepathically reach lots of people, not just the ring bearer. That he focuses on outsiders is a bit weird given how hard it is to get in (but also offers a potential explanation for all the documentation floating about, it's not from expatriates at all, but the people the Dweller was communicating with). Arguably, this might provide a motivation for limiting size, if there's only so many people the Great Protector could...protect from his telepathy.



Wong's lack of knowledge about the rings also bothered me as much as the rings not having individual powers, which isn't actually that much of a bother considering the other accepted changes that the MCU has wrought.
It just does feel clumsy that an ancient warlord managed to conquer so much territory under various names but his organization was always called the same thing with the same thug tattoos. Seems like maybe somebody would have made a connection somewhere. I guess if he always knew where his kids were, the rings may be giving him some sort of unseen powers over information? Stretching.

This I agree with entirely. I think they're starting to be put at risk of almost Worfing the sorcerers research/knowledge? Wow, something's not in their library, it must be super rare and dangerous--wait, what was the last thing that was in their library? Was there even anything on Dormamu? I may need to go back and rewatch Doctor Strange, it's been a while.

[Lizard Lord]

This I agree with entirely. I think they're starting to be put at risk of almost Worfing the sorcerers research/knowledge? Wow, something's not in their library, it must be super rare and dangerous--wait, what was the last thing that was in their library? Was there even anything on Dormamu? I may need to go back and rewatch Doctor Strange, it's been a while.

There was info on Dormammu (albeit in forbidden books I believe). It was how the evil Sorcerer villain (whose name I can't remember) was able to find out and pursue his plan.

With that said I do find it weird that they wouldn't at least know about the rings from when Shang-chi's father was using them for a thousand years, even if they couldn't discover their actual origins (which I suspect to be Eternal, Deviant, or Celestial purely because of the whole "no one mystical, scientific, or cosmic has heard of these things" deal).

Also, besides that, I can't think of any other time their mystical research came up empty. Thanos himself is not inherently magical in the MCU (so why would they know about him) and I thought they did know about the Infinity Stones, just not that someone was so close to collecting them all.

[lord_khaine]

You miss present day? What a strange sentiment.

I want to borrow your time machine.

[Beleriphon]

Both post-credit scenes annoyed me, but the mid was far worse. Ragged looking hologram Bruce Banner asking if the Rings were Chitauri? WTF would a slave race that seems focused on organic-interfaced weapons/vehicles be doing making the Rings? And does Captain Marvel really bring any value to this conversation? I mean if you need a warship destroyed, sure, call her...but I don't see a lot that she can bring to the "what are these mystical rings" conversation. At least she pops out after a few moments. I know we're down RDJ and Chris Evans...but instead of trying to cram other Avengers in, since you already have Wong, go with Dr. Strange...or better yet, just give Shang Chi a stringer for his next (even if unrealized) adventure?

They're either setting up Eternals, or the bad guy for Phase 4. My personal guess on that one is going to be on The Celestials OR The Big G himself.

[GloatingSwine]

With that said I do find it weird that they wouldn't at least know about the rings from when Shang-chi's father was using them for a thousand years, even if they couldn't discover their actual origins (which I suspect to be Eternal, Deviant, or Celestial purely because of the whole "no one mystical, scientific, or cosmic has heard of these things" deal).


Xu Wenwu is clearly using them differently to Shang-Chi given that they were blue for him not orange, it's probably a "using their true power" thing. They've never actually been properly turned on until now.

Could still be Kakarantharan, that's outside our galaxy proper in the Magellanic Clouds and moving beyond the limits of the galaxy is notably difficult (and was the problem Mar-Vell was trying to solve with a one-of-a-kind Infinity Stone powered drive.

[Psyren]

Both post-credit scenes annoyed me, but the mid was far worse. Ragged looking hologram Bruce Banner asking if the Rings were Chitauri? WTF would a slave race that seems focused on organic-interfaced weapons/vehicles be doing making the Rings? And does Captain Marvel really bring any value to this conversation? I mean if you need a warship destroyed, sure, call her...but I don't see a lot that she can bring to the "what are these mystical rings" conversation. At least she pops out after a few moments. I know we're down RDJ and Chris Evans...but instead of trying to cram other Avengers in, since you already have Wong, go with Dr. Strange...or better yet, just give Shang Chi a stringer for his next (even if unrealized) adventure?

- M

She's extremely widely travelled, there's value in that. What we learn is that they are not any alien metal she's seen, and from Banner we learn they're not vibranium either. Most likely the source of the rings is Celestial in origin, which would also explain their comments about the rings being extremely, extremely old.

As for "where was Strange?" I expect we'll find that out in NWH, much as we'll learn "what was the distress signal?" in The Marvels, and "Why Hulk no green?" in She-Hulk.

[Imbalance]

After a little research today, I'm satisfied that theis not meant to be Fin Fang Foom at all, instead is an obscure cosmic entity that was actually called He Who Dwells Below or more directly the Dweller-in-Darkness through most of his scant appearances. If it's the same thing, he started out as a throwaway Cthulhu knockoff in Thor in the '70's and has only been plucked from obscurity a handful of times since, notably as a demonic Dr. Strange villain and more recently in the aftermath of Fear Itself.

His major thing isn't soul stealing, exactly, but causing and feeding on humanity's fear. He has used telepathy to communicate and deliver terror, apparently. He led a group called the Fear Lords, which fell apart like villain teams are wont. Seems there's some in- and out-of-book discrepancies about whether he is a spawn of the O.G. Cthulhu and/or Nightmare's cuz.

I didn't come across any prior connections to Shang-Chi or any ring artifacts, just a crown. Maybe I didn't dig deep enough, but he honestly seemed kinda boring to be plugged into the movie's story the way they did, and right now I think they just needed a really obscure not-Foom to put on screen to be killed.

I could be wrong, but those are my $.02 for now.

[Psyren]

Wild theory:

The Dweller in Darkness works by lurking in another dimension and getting in the heads of mystically attuned folks to make them think they hear their lost loved ones, creating an obsession in their minds. This attracts them to try and bore through the barrier separating our world from its, inadvertently freeing it.

...Isn't there another Marvel character besides Wen Wu currently hearing her loved ones desperately needing her, in her head?

https://bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/darkhold-1.jpg

[Mordar]

Wild theory:

The Dweller in Darkness works by lurking in another dimension and getting in the heads of mystically attuned folks to make them think they hear their lost loved ones, creating an obsession in their minds. This attracts them to try and bore through the barrier separating our world from its, inadvertently freeing it.

...Isn't there another Marvel character besides Wen Wu currently hearing her loved ones desperately needing her, in her head?

https://bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/darkhold-1.jpg



Compelling. While my hope is we can have continued divergence in the forces at play (hence my dislike of the vibranium/chitauri assessment), a shared source of corruption can tie things nicely together and lead us to the arc villain.

I just hope it is done with character and flavor, not another unstoppable force until he isn't unstoppable.

- M

[Sapphire Guard]

Standard, decent story, nothing special.



Good cast on the whole, a bit too much baldly stating the themes in the script.

Mom gave up her superpowers when she got married? Really?

Anyone notice the Razorfistmobile's windows growing back after being smashed?

It may well predate it in the comics, I don't know, but that village seems a lot like Higher budget Kun Lun, complete with patron Dragon.

What kind of pathetic defences are these on the gate to hell? Six jeeps worth of admittedly elite thugs can get through them.

The effects are good, the performances are good.

Action scenes... I dunno, nothing obviously wrong, but it feels like they're missing something.

Katie is in this movie to be 'comedy sidekick', but it makes absolutely no sense to bring her to Macau with assassins on the hunt.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, X-Men Dark Phoenix was an amazing movie.

*Presses X to doubt*

Overall, I was...pleasantly surprised by Shang-Chi. Now, I didn't know much at all about the comics...I know of the ten rings/mandarin solely as an occasional old timey adversary from old marvel comics, but never honestly knew all that much about 'em. In this? Decent mix of stuff, overall a fun watch. I'd certainly place it above Black Widow in terms of filmmaking.

If we're getting into quibbles, yeah, I did find the bowshot to be...needlessly convenient. Making the comic relief character suddenly essential is...ehh. This ain't the only film to do it, but it does strain credibility somewhat. Skills were otherwise set up fairly well for all the other characters. I think they were making his dad out to be a hard man, but not actually a monster. This is...an interesting path to take. Sure, we know that he probably has done some dubious stuff, and we're told of his conquering, but that is kind of how life used to be. Lots of conquering in history. It stops short of making him irredeemable, and that's alright in my book.

A fair bit of this is probably on the lead. I've enjoyed him in Kim's Convenience, and perhaps a bit of that like transferred over. He manages to convey being a bit of a badass while not being, yknow...boring.

As for the Snap/Blip, well, fortunately it wasn't *that* central to this movie. But that is probably going to be something of an awkward choice that the MCU will just continue to ignore henceforth. *shrug*

[Prime32]

A random thought:


Some people have noted that the Dragon Scales feel a lot like Vibranium (special material used by a hidden land, etc.). One way to take this and roll with it would be if, in a future movie, someone combined Dragon Scales, Vibranium and Uru to create the MCU version of Adamantium.

Due to the mystical properties of its components, you can justify this Adamantium as being not just physically tough but also blocking things like, say, telepathy. Which might come in handy when adapting a certain other franchise...

[Psyren]

^ Wouldn't that make Wolverine immune to telepaths if his skull ends up coated in the stuff?

[Prime32]

Yep. But all the mind-tampering was done before they put the adamantium in, so all it does is make it harder for him to figure out what they did.

...also this potentially means that Wolverine's claws can kill ghosts. Which is awesome, so why not.

[lord_khaine]

Seems to me like he spends his cinema budget wisely. :smallwink:

Cant argue with this xD


...also this potentially means that Wolverine's claws can kill ghosts. Which is awesome, so why not.

You mean horrible, he is already enough of a mary sue in general. So please not.

[Brackenlord]

You mean horrible, he is already enough of a mary sue in general. So please not.

What? Just because he is the best there is at what he does? :tongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

Saw the film last night. Thought it was pretty good. Basically a magical kung fu movie with MCU cameos, so not bad at all.

In the same boat wondering about Bruce not being in Hulk form. The arm cast implies we're probably not long after A:Endgame, but I'm sure we'll find out. Also, Carol's hair is long again? I love her longer hair a lot more, don't get me wrong, but I'm highly skeptical enough time has passed for it to be that long if Bruce's arm is still in a sling.

[theNater]

In the same boat wondering about Bruce not being in Hulk form. The arm cast implies we're probably not long after A:Endgame, but I'm sure we'll find out. Also, Carol's hair is long again? I love her longer hair a lot more, don't get me wrong, but I'm highly skeptical enough time has passed for it to be that long if Bruce's arm is still in a sling.
Given that Bruce's injury was caused by the infinity stones, it doesn't have to behave the way a normal injury does. Some possibilities:

It cannot heal, and he's trying a treatment option that can't be used on the Hulk.
It cannot heal in Hulk form, so he has to switch to Banner form for healing.
It has already healed in Hulk form, and he has only recently discovered that his Banner form was also injured.

[Psyren]

Carol's hair definitely doesn't have to obey any kinds of normalcy laws either, not when we know nothing about how often she has to cut it or even how.

[Androgeus]

Carol's hair definitely doesn't have to obey any kinds of normalcy laws either, not when we know nothing about how often she has to cut it or even how.

Also it’s space. They probably have hair growing pills or something.

[Easy e]

I read a few people knocking Katy's bow shot. However, the sidekick character also had a character arc to fulfill, not just Shang-Chi. The bowshot was the culmination of that arc.

[Tyndmyr]

I read a few people knocking Katy's bow shot. However, the sidekick character also had a character arc to fulfill, not just Shang-Chi. The bowshot was the culmination of that arc.

Sure, but that doesn't change that it's...ridiculously convenient. So much so that they lampshaded it, which doesn't really excuse anything.

Go, grow or whatever, but I'm pretty sure a single day of archery doesn't really prepare one for that.

[ecarden]

I read a few people knocking Katy's bow shot. However, the sidekick character also had a character arc to fulfill, not just Shang-Chi. The bowshot was the culmination of that arc.

I mean...how? I agree it's the end of the things she does, but how does it culminate her arc? She starts out a massively overqualified chauffeur who, her mother says, is failing to live up to her potential. She runs off with Shang, so we know she's brave and devoted. She gets her moment of glory in proving that being good at driving a car is crucial to saving the world and then arrives at the village and...

Nothing is made of her being physically inept, so its not like she's overcoming something in learning (in a day) to fire a bow. She overcomes someone saying 'no don't fight,' but that's never been an issue for her until she arrives in the village. The man keeping her down isn't part of her character arc. That's Shang's sister's arc!

Her arc seems to want to be 'live up to your potential' which...she doesn't. Shooting a bow she learned to use in a day at a giant CGI monster is not living up to her potential. Stealing one of the Ten Rings vehicles and driving someone to a spot they could take a shot might be? Proving that the skill she demonstrably has (being good at driving) is important? But the initial get-to-the-village mission did that, even if in a ridiculous way.

Personally, I'd have gone the other route altogether. She doesn't want to live up to her potential, that's fine too. Be one of the footsoldiers, or be the adult who can be spared to take care of the children because you are not a combatant. Accept that and help out, is a perfectly fine message!

But seriously, how does shooting a giant CGI monster that she just learned about, with a weapon she just learned how to use, in a place she just learned about, using none of her established skills or characterization, complete her character arc?

[Lizard Lord]

I mean...how? I agree it's the end of the things she does, but how does it culminate her arc? She starts out a massively overqualified chauffeur who, her mother says, is failing to live up to her potential. She runs off with Shang, so we know she's brave and devoted. She gets her moment of glory in proving that being good at driving a car is crucial to saving the world and then arrives at the village and...

Nothing is made of her being physically inept, so its not like she's overcoming something in learning (in a day) to fire a bow. She overcomes someone saying 'no don't fight,' but that's never been an issue for her until she arrives in the village. The man keeping her down isn't part of her character arc. That's Shang's sister's arc!

Her arc seems to want to be 'live up to your potential' which...she doesn't. Shooting a bow she learned to use in a day at a giant CGI monster is not living up to her potential. Stealing one of the Ten Rings vehicles and driving someone to a spot they could take a shot might be? Proving that the skill she demonstrably has (being good at driving) is important? But the initial get-to-the-village mission did that, even if in a ridiculous way.

Personally, I'd have gone the other route altogether. She doesn't want to live up to her potential, that's fine too. Be one of the footsoldiers, or be the adult who can be spared to take care of the children because you are not a combatant. Accept that and help out, is a perfectly fine message!

But seriously, how does shooting a giant CGI monster that she just learned about, with a weapon she just learned how to use, in a place she just learned about, using none of her established skills or characterization, complete her character arc?

The reason she didn't live up to her potential is because she never gave her full effort to anything.

I guess the implication is that she gave her full effort to learn archery, but I suppose learning in a day kind of goes against that.

[Ranxerox]

The reason she didn't live up to her potential is because she never gave her full effort to anything.

I guess the implication is that she gave her full effort to learn archery, but I suppose learning in a day kind of goes against that.

No, remember the archery instructor saying that she need to fully commit to each shot. The reason that she had not been living up to her potential is that she had been refusing to commit to anything. The implication is that she had fully committed in her heart to Shang Chi and his quest and that allowed her to unlock her potential.

Yes, hokey, I know. However, for the most part super hero comics are interior struggle given physical forms. So, the arrow shot is not literal (which is good because given the distance and height of her target it probably wouldn't have been possible for her regardless of how long she practiced) but is a stand in for some more mundane, real world type of achievement. Something like taking a job that actually challenged her or going to college. However, since those aren't the sorts of things that sell tickets to comic book movies, instead she shoots a giant flying monster.

[ecarden]

No, remember the archery instructor saying that she need to fully commit to each shot. The reason that she had not been living up to her potential is that she had been refusing to commit to anything. The implication is that she had fully committed in her heart to Shang Chi and his quest and that allowed her to unlock her potential.

Yes, hokey, I know. However, for the most part super hero comics are interior struggle given physical forms. So, the arrow shot is not literal (which is good because given the distance and height of her target it probably wouldn't have been possible for her regardless of how long she practiced) but is a stand in for some more mundane, real world type of achievement. Something like taking a job that actually challenged her or going to college. However, since those aren't the sorts of things that sell tickets to comic book movies, instead she shoots a giant flying monster.

I admit I stepped out to go to the bathroom at that point in the movie, but I agree that's what they're going for. I just think it's stupid and would have been far better to make use of some actual skill she had. Commitment is very definitely not enough everywhere else in this movie, which relies desperately on the magical power of martial arts training.

[Ranxerox]

I admit I stepped out to go to the bathroom at that point in the movie, but I agree that's what they're going for. I just think it's stupid and would have been far better to make use of some actual skill she had. Commitment is very definitely not enough everywhere else in this movie, which relies desperately on the magical power of martial arts training.

I recognized what they were trying to do at the time and am okay with it in principle. That being said, yes, the execution could have been better.

[Ramza00]

So just watched the movie.

Two Theme Takeaways
1) A theme of this movie is older parents can not be trusted with technology, and call your parents (while living away from them)
2) 🎶 The only one who could ever reach me / Was the monk of airbender clan
The only dame who could ever teach me / Was the monk of airbender clan
Yes, she was, she was, ooh, yes, she was 🎶

[LaZodiac]

I admit I stepped out to go to the bathroom at that point in the movie, but I agree that's what they're going for. I just think it's stupid and would have been far better to make use of some actual skill she had. Commitment is very definitely not enough everywhere else in this movie, which relies desperately on the magical power of martial arts training.

Having just watched the film; we know from what we've seen that her greatest skill is that she's actually just quite skilled in general. She can sing pretty well, she can navigate those scaffolds, she can drive a run away bus well enough that no one died. Her issue was not that she was unskilled, it was that she was unfocused.

Anyway I loved this film. The villain was a FANTASTIC use of the Mandarin, super tragic and sad. I don't know Sang Chi's comics well, but is his sister good or evil? Because me and my dad couldn't work out if her take over of the Ten Rings was positive or negative for the world at large. She had a lot of skulls in her designs but also that's clearly like, her aesthetic so maybe it's not bad...?

[Palanan]

I watched it over the past couple of days. Paused halfway through because it was in another moody slow patch and I just wasn’t interested enough to see what happened next.

Came back to it the next day, plowed through to the end. Very glad I didn’t spend money on it.

Shaun is one of the most genuinely likable of all MCU heroes, and I enjoyed his goofy dynamic with Katy. He’s the first slacker hero in the MCU.

But there just isn’t that much to the movie, and it feels like it’s bits of several different movies slapped together—part urban martial arts, part Crouching Tiger knockoff, part creature feature with a new and random cosmic horror. And lots of draggy family drama.

The “final battle” at the end was just silly. A few dozen villagers, a few dozen mooks. I’m not quite sure what the point was, since Shang-Chi’s father could have leveled the entire village with one swipe from the Rings. And for mystical warriors armed with dragonscales and spooky powers, who are supposedly the guardians of the portal or whatnot, they sure had a hard time with a few dozen mooks.

And did I miss something, or is it an incredible coincidence that the Villain’s Evil LairTM is a short drive by electric car from the enchanted forest leading to the hidden village?

Oh, and the random cosmic horror. Way too random to suddenly appear in MCU cosmology, and a genuinely uninspired design. “Dragon octopus” sounds much cooler than it actually was, and it kept reminding me of a bad knockoff of the alpha dragon from the first HTTYD movie.

Overall, not great. Way too much family drama, frequently bogged down, mainly unconvincing creature CGI, and random cosmic horror out of left field. If the MCU wants a Lovecraftian feel for a movie, that should be the focus of the entire movie, rather than tacked on at the end.

[Ramza00]

I watched it over the past couple of days. Paused halfway through because it was in another moody slow patch and I just wasn’t interested enough to see what happened next.

Came back to it the next day, plowed through to the end. Very glad I didn’t spend money on it.

Shaun is one of the most genuinely likable of all MCU heroes, and I enjoyed his goofy dynamic with Katy. He’s the first slacker hero in the MCU.

But there just isn’t that much to the movie, and it feels like it’s bits of several different movies slapped together—part urban martial arts, part Crouching Tiger knockoff, part creature feature with a new and random cosmic horror. And lots of draggy family drama.

The “final battle” at the end was just silly. A few dozen villagers, a few dozen mooks. I’m not quite sure what the point was, since Shang-Chi’s father could have leveled the entire village with one swipe from the Rings. And for mystical warriors armed with dragonscales and spooky powers, who are supposedly the guardians of the portal or whatnot, they sure had a hard time with a few dozen mooks.

And did I miss something, or is it an incredible coincidence that the Villain’s Evil LairTM is a short drive by electric car from the enchanted forest leading to the hidden village?

Oh, and the random cosmic horror. Way too random to suddenly appear in MCU cosmology, and a genuinely uninspired design. “Dragon octopus” sounds much cooler than it actually was, and it kept reminding me of a bad knockoff of the alpha dragon from the first HTTYD movie.

Overall, not great. Way too much family drama, frequently bogged down, mainly unconvincing creature CGI, and random cosmic horror out of left field. If the MCU wants a Lovecraftian feel for a movie, that should be the focus of the entire movie, rather than tacked on at the end.

The third act problem

I feel the Ta Lo city needed to be bigger and trigger feelings of awe and the sublime. And these 3 words are interconnected (big / awe / sublime) for we often find small things to be beautiful or pretty, but to trigger feelings of awe we need to feel that there is a possibility the thing can destroy us. Thus to feel wonder we often need to be put up against something large and huge. A blowtorch can kill us but we find that form of heat to be pretty and beautiful, while a mountain volcano unleashing its magna we find to be full of awe and thus sublime.

Make Ta Lo magnificent like Asgard and you can give an opponent for The Ten Rings to fight. Likewise you can trigger feelings of awe while Katy is walking through the human areas of the city but also the nature areas before she does her archery stuff where she is taught to focus and actually try to engage with a target instead of merely “playing at life.”

Making Ta Lo look big likewise makes Lurker in the Darkness and the Great Protector (or whatever they call the good dragon) to be Big in comparison. The Lurker of course would be smaller than the city, yet the Lurker is still much larger than 1.67 meter tall human, and the Lurker is destroying the city slowly like a Kaiju / Giant Monster movie. There is a sense of scale that was missing with the 3rd act, while the two city scenes in the first half with the bus and the skyscraper at night made that part of the movie to be fun. Hell scale is why everyone loved Black Panther. We loved that movie for DOZENS of reasons but you need to make that city / country feel big and large, the world needed to feel occupied before you set the smaller everyday people dramas inside of it and Black Panther is allowed to be a great movie for those 11 other things.

—————

Scale also contributes to the slacker aspect of the movie. How hard it is to make a difference if the world is so big, yet even a slacker can be a hero.

—————

As for a more specific question Palanan the Ten Rings headquarters / training facility is right next to the Mystical City and is a car ride away (not a jet ride) due to both of them being in China and how Shang-Chi’s dad knowing the location of the magic city for 30ish years by now, but he could not enter it due to magic bamboo plot reasons and grabbing the two pendants. Why he did not grab the two pendants when Shang-Chi was 07 to 14, well he did not read enough books yet but in the 10 years Shawn was away Dad finally did the reading and found out how to do it. Pretty much we have a total of 4 micro movies timed gated due to Macguffin shenanigans making some people feel railroaded a few months ago.

[Tyndmyr]

and is a car ride away (not a jet ride) due to both of them being in China

I know there was more to this, but China is literally 3.7 million square miles in size. The scale of this, I think, gets lost in some films. We wouldn't assume that anywhere in the US is a short car ride from anywhere else, but China's even larger, so it seems like quite a coincidence there.

This isn't a showstopper for me, because, mostly, this is background, and in the more fantastical portion of the film. Some sort of unique coincidence setting things up is sort of a trope in fantasy, so it's eh, not that big of an obstacle, but I can certainly see why someone would take issue with it.

[Sapphire Guard]

10 rings guy was specifically hunting that village and knew its general location, not hard to assume he set up his hq nearby.


Sure is lucky that bus fight happened on San Francisco's steepest hill. They're rolling for like five minutes.

[Joran]

10 rings guy was specifically hunting that village and knew its general location, not hard to assume he set up his hq nearby.


Sure is lucky that bus fight happened on San Francisco's steepest hill. They're rolling for like five minutes.

https://twitter.com/that_mc/status/1459613123590066180?s=20

Long thread by an actual bus driver about the bus scene. It's a fun read, but the part I didn't know is that if the air brakes fail, there's a secondary brake system that will engage and bring the bus to a halt quickly.

[Ramza00]

I know there was more to this, but China is literally 3.7 million square miles in size. The scale of this, I think, gets lost in some films. We wouldn't assume that anywhere in the US is a short car ride from anywhere else, but China's even larger, so it seems like quite a coincidence there.

This isn't a showstopper for me, because, mostly, this is background, and in the more fantastical portion of the film. Some sort of unique coincidence setting things up is sort of a trope in fantasy, so it's eh, not that big of an obstacle, but I can certainly see why someone would take issue with it.

Yes.

But we are never given actual locations in China for these things, China is a placeholder. Yes I know China if overlaid onto the US and I started in Oregon I can drive east and south and reach Orlando Florida and still be within the map of overlaid China, or I can drive to Maine and then go north another 400 miles into Canada and still be in fictional this is the map of China overlaid onto the US.

————

It requires investment of the viewer into the movie. In my head canon it would make total sense that since the forest brought Shang Chi’s dad and mom together, he would construct a military training base / fortress less than 1 hour away from the forest for this land is now special to him, it was one of the places he felt was home and akin to him. But to my recollection this or another “justificatory” reason was never given to the viewer and thus the viewer must fill in the gaps, and assign projections / head cannons, likewise they can say I do not buy it and it took me out of the movie.

[Muz]

In my head canon it would make total sense that since the forest brought Shang Chi’s dad and mom together, he would construct a military training base / fortress less than 1 hour away from the forest for this land is now special to him, it was one of the places he felt was home and akin to him.

I was about to say something like this. Shang-Chi's mom passed away years ago, and he was interested in conquering the place even before then, so why not set up a staging area nearby while he looks for a way in? It feels like one of those "give the audience 1 + 1 and let them get to 2" sort of deals that I didn't need explicitly stated in exposition.

[Peelee]

I know there was more to this, but China is literally 3.7 million square miles in size. The scale of this, I think, gets lost in some films. We wouldn't assume that anywhere in the US is a short car ride from anywhere else, but China's even larger, so it seems like quite a coincidence there.

Halve that 3.7 million figure. The vast, vast, vast majority of livable China is east of the Hu line.

[LaZodiac]

Another thing worth noting is that they said they had three days till the path opened, but we only visably see two days pass... which means the drive from the fortress to the forest took an entire twenty four hours of driving seemingly nonstop.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think this movie was perfectly mediocre. I like the lead and I can see the character of Shang-Chi in the greater MCU, but I think they need to define his powers a bit more.

Villain - I liked the villain, and I thought the actor did a great job. I normally like the tragic villain angle but it didn't work as well with me this time around. I'm not sure why. There were some serious Castlevania vibes, which is great, but I don't know what threw it off for me. I am thinking maybe I just don't expect that kind of depth in an MCU villain? Or maybe the timing of the reveal... like it isn't obvious how much he had reformed AND that he is being deceived by the Dweller in Darkness until 2/3 of the way in, and then it's like... Oh, well, I hope they can snap him out of this... But that doesn't really happen, even as he's punching the Gate and demonic minions are bursting out. He pushes Shang-Chi out of the way but then is easily killed, and that seemed like not enough for what they were building towards.

Additionally, how do the Ten Rings (org) stack up to Hydra and SHIELD and all the other organizations out there? And how do the Ten Rings (artifact) work? Apparently they can protect against fire damage, but not psychic intrusion?

Other Villain - The Dweller in Darkness was so... generic tentacle monster thing it hurt. They were trying so hard with the family stuff that this seemed completely inappropriate to tack on this weird giant CGI monster with mini-me minions flying around collecting soul orbs. Also, the Great Protector did half the fighting, which was disappointing. And I guess this super powerful entity can be killed by someone with the Ten Rings, which means it can probably be killed by some other MCU character, which means it isn't nearly as threatening as we were made to believe.

Katy - I found Katy to be mostly irritating. I did appreciate the scene where the lie is revealed, because Katy accepts and understands the lie, and I think this is far more realistic than the normal "I can't believe you lied to me!" response that sees a wedge driven between the lead and their friend/loved one. I too thought it was totally goofy to have Katy train for a few hours and then take the critical shot. But I do want to say that her character development was not in being able to aim that shot, it was simply in being able to take the shot in the first place. We are told that Katy is generally competent at the things she does, but she doesn't ever try to go beyond her abilities. She is afraid of having to try and failing. It's likely that she is good with a bow just in general, and that she can hit a giant dragon tentacle throat. But it's not likely that she would ever try, because Katy is always purposely underachieving. So it's not her aim that shows her growth, but in her stepping up and taking the shot when it mattered the most; when the fate of the world hinged on it. And I'm good with that.

Shang-Chi - I liked him and would like to see more of him in the MCU. But his power set needs definition. Not much more to add here I guess. I would have liked a little more dialogue between him and his sister about him never returning and leaving her to her fate with their father. Although he was 14 and it can be explained/forgiven, I still think that's a big thing needing to be addressed between the two.

Sister - I am okay with her learning martial arts on her own. The MCU is full of geniuses and prodigies so someone that can practice martial arts by watching others and then tweak their own methods/techniques to perfect them and become an expert is fine with me. Also, rope darts are always cool to see. The idea that she has her own pit fighting thing going on is cool. That it's an empire? Not sure I buy that. But they never went into it's scope (that I recall), so no biggie. I think it is cool that she has taken over the Ten Rings and I wonder what that means. I couldn't really gauge where she was on the good/evil spectrum.

Trevor - Hard pass.

CGI Animals - They look cool but obviously fake. I would like to see more asian mythology, but effects need to be prioritized.

Wong - This is a known risk with the shared universe movies but, it just seems out of place that the Sorcerers wouldn't know about the Ten Rings or the Dweller in Darkness. Their whole schtick is to protect the Earth from otherworldly entities.

Combat - The closed fist vs open hand and direct movement vs circular movement was straight out of Jet Li's The One, 20 years ago.

Flashbacks - I think there were too many for me. And I think, IIRC, we saw a couple of flashbacks multiple times as they revealed more information. At one point in the movie I just felt like I was watching more flashbacks than actual present day stuff with the characters.

Overall, this movie was okay. It has promise. I wouldn't mind seeing more of it, but this felt a little disjointed. Hopefully they can focus in on a theme and polish the next one.

[KillianHawkeye]

Out of all the complaints against this movie, "it isn't clear enough that the villain made his lair near the entrance to the magic land, which he learned the location of decades earlier" wasn't on my Bingo card. :smallconfused:

[LaZodiac]

Out of all the complaints against this movie, "it isn't clear enough that the villain made his lair near the entrance to the magic land, which he learned the location of decades earlier" wasn't on my Bingo card. :smallconfused:

Some people will complain about anything.

[Ramza00]

So the Shang Chi director just signed a movie contract deal with Disney.

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/shang-chi-sequel-marvel-1235127253/

Sounds like we are getting a Shang Chi sequel with Director Destin Daniel directing. Also a future Disney plus show but that may be unconnected to Shang Chi. Also the deal is an exclusive deal for several years with Destin Daniel only working for Marvel Studios and Hulu’s Onyx Collective. Yet the relevant details are not being shared with the press at this time,

Someday I hope 🤞 I will get my Kate Bishop doing archery with Katy. Maybe some drunken Karaoke, or perhaps some trick arrow shots competition? :smalltongue: